Flying Straight

Transcript 00:00:00 Billy And they said you need to come with me right now and I said, I don't even know you. The head of the Pilot Assistance Program for the APA, which is American Airlines pilot and the other guy, was the chief pilot for my airline and this guy, Dave. He had a phony handed phones me he said this is your crew scheduling. Tell them that you're sick and I said I'm not sick. I said I'm. What are we doing? I'm not saying you said listen, tell him that you're sick that's all you have to say is I'm sick they know that you're going to be talking to him. Tell him that you're sick. Or if you don't, you're gonna end up on the news because the news vans are already looking for it. So you know. I mean, I'm a rational person and I was, you know, coming off a major Bender. But I knew that there was something wrong with that situation, so I just said, yeah, I'm sick and they said, OK, we're moving from your schedule and I think happiness is not even the right word. I think what I'm really looking for is peace is peace and serenity. That's why I'm I want to look in a mirror. And then I'll be happy with what I'm looking at. And sometimes it's. I've got to be selfless to do that. You know, I've got to help others to really be happy with myself. And that's totally cool. We closed, you know, anytime you know my can be just as negative and pessimistic as as the next guy. But when I'm doing something to help somebody else, so when I'm listening to someone else, I'm not thinking of my own problem. I'm not focused on me, when I'm helping someone else, you know, and I think that is such a massive lesson that I've learned. 00:01:35 intro You're listening to flying straight and aviators guide to navigating through a life of sobriety. People in the flying industry and other walks of life will share their experiences of living a life free of alcohol and other drugs. You will also hear from experts in the world of addiction and self-improvement.  Join Andrew O’Meally, Airline pilot, an non practicing alcoholic as he takes you on a journey, discovering how a sober life can lead to a deeper level of happiness. 00:02:11 Andrew Hi folks and welcome to this 5th episode of Flying Straight piloting a sober life. My name is Andrew O’Meally. Your host and I hope you're doing OK. Well on today's episode I speak with someone from over the other side of the world in Manhattan, Captain Billy Peterson. He was born and bred in that New York area and as I said, he's living in Manhattan today. This interview is little longer than the others, but I tell you, after recording them playing it back, there is not one word I could cut out. It's such a powerful account of his life. I find it hard to summarize it now, but what I will say is that his story with plenty of differences to mine, has more similarities and I have a feeling that there are heaps of people who will be listening to this today. Will feel the same as I have. This guy has so many liars, his honesty and acceptance of himself as something that I have the deepest admiration for. Enough said by me. Here is the story. 00:03:21 Andrew I really appreciate this time you've taken to talk with me today and considering that's something we have in common, and that's the ability to miscalculate the time zones. I'm really glad this is happening now! Last time I spoke, or we spoke. You just got back from Puerto Rico and you've recovered from that. 00:03:44 Billy I did, I did, and since then I I went in another trip, another work trip down there to San Juan and just came back a few hours ago. Just flew up this afternoon. 00:03:54 Andrew Alright, did you? Was that an overnight or? 00:03:57 Billy Yeah, it was. Actually, it was just it. Was a simple three day trip one leg down to Puerto Rico Day one with a Dominican Republic turn the next day, and then another Dominican Republic turn this morning. And then dead -Head back up to New York. 00:04:15 Andrew Alright, anytime for any surfing or was just a very quick layover? 00:04:20 Billy Yeah. One very quick layover in another longer wet layover, but there was no waves and the water was kind of dirty, kind of dirty -seaweed Sometimes, and one of those times I hung out by the pool and read a book and got some food. And you know, typical overnight. 00:04:37 Andrew Yeah, it sounds terrible. 00:04:38 Billy Horrible, horrible. 00:04:40 Andrew I'm glad you made it from that ordeal, so that's pretty good. So yeah, we spoke fairly recently because I had heard your just the abbreviated story of your life at HIMS conference. And I've Absolutely fascinating. So we sat down not so long ago and you told me the unedited version, and I thought it's such an amazing story. Maybe we should record it this time. So here we are. 00:05:14 Billy Right, OK, I don't know about amazing story, but yeah, sure let's do it. 00:05:19 Andrew It is what it is, yeah, so I guess if we start from the early days, you're born and raised in the New York City area, is that right? 00:05:32 Billy Yeah, yeah, that's correct. So I'm like third generation. Irish American and my whole family. I'm on both sides came over from Northwestern Island over to Brooklyn, Brooklyn, NY. Back in, you know, with age. You know my family just kind of - we stayed here, you know we I have no family anywhere else in the country but in York and I grew up on the islands about. About 30 minutes from 30 miles or I guess in kilometres over that beyond 50 kilometers maybe. 00:06:04 Andrew Yeah yeah 50 yeah yeah. 00:06:06 Billy From Manhattan, from New York, from the city, and I grew up out there in a very working class, working class neighborhood. 00:06:16 Andrew Yeah, OK, alright and so grew up there and then. I guess you were sort of keen on flying but I remember you telling me that that wasn't the first career that you had - it was a teacher. Yeah, so what I did is when, you know there's a whole bunch of different things I always wanted to do, and I was always kind of told that I couldn't do them. I wasn't smart enough, wasn't quick enough, wasn't good enough. That kind of thing. You know, we hear that a lot in these rooms. I didn't really get the -all of the support I guess I needed to, you know to be free really, so I ended up what I was always told was just get a job with good benefits and good health insurance. You know something we need in the states, and you know, So I went to college to be a teacher, a technology education teacher which is. It's otherwise known as industrial arts like so I was teaching at the high school level. I had an architectural drawing class. I had a transportation class, you know where we basically taught the kids how to rotate tires and change oil on cars. And you know how an airplane flies that basic kind of thing, but. But  Yeah, so that that was my first career. That was my first career. Was teaching an all throughout college and. All my 20s rose I bartended also I was a -and you know it wasn't really a side job cause now, in places like New York, it's  such a high paying job who, you know, to be a bartender that it took up took up a lot of time. 00:07:51 Andrew Yeah, right 00:07:52 Billy And as a budding alcoholic, I enjoyed that much more than the teaching, and I excelled at it and I had friends and I had to go to different bars on nights off to socialize and network and it was it was you know it was kind of kind of glamorous in its own little way. It wasn't, you know, big fancy, you know, bar scene that I was involved in, but it was it was my bar scene you know, with my kind of people and it was a great time and that was that was my 20s. That was before I I started flying. 00:08:29 Andrew Oh OK, so you're you didn't like the teaching gig all that much, you just thought it wasn't for you or. 00:08:38 Billy So, You know so, the teacher thing is complicated, cause, I was, Like I, what I actually kind of did like I like the classes. I would seem like fun. They weren't, you know, it wasn’t teaching calculus or science. You know I was teaching. Like having fun, you know I was like I was like the. 00:08:58 Andrew Yeah, the fun stuff. Yeah, fun stuff here. The fun you know, but what I didn't like about it was I didn't like you know, waking up at 5:00 in the morning and sitting in traffic to get to school. Well then, being the same place every day you know 7:00 AM to 3:00 PM. Kind of thing that wasn't for me, you know, it also interfered with my night life - drinking and doing drugs. Being that I had to get up so early every morning. So I had all that was working against it and I was also in a very affluent school district. Very rich school district, very public school but it was very - the kids I came from a lot of money and they took my class just because it was an easy A. They knew that they can just show up and pass the class with a good grade. And. It was just very difficult to kind of - the kids’ kind of walked all over me. And we're allowed to talk down to me because they were that wealthy that they kind of, if there was any issue, the parents come to the principle and say my child is having a you know an issue with Mr Peterson. Handle it, you know, and then I would be told. Take it easy on this kid, you know? So it was very - it was difficult for me because I came from a very from a lower middle class area where you know if the teacher ever called. Home. You know, I was the one that got in trouble. It wasn't the opposite way around. If I ever called one of these students houses. You know the parents would ask me what I did wrong you know, it was a - it was a way of life that I was not used to, so I'm sure that if I was in a different school maybe a lower class school district I might have - I might have liked it better, but I gave it two years and and you know, I was. I was twenty 23 - 24 years ay the time and I was already looking forward to retirement and I knew I couldn't it was just gonna be like a waste of life if I stayed there, you know, so it  - I started thinking of other things to do and you know one thing. I was teaching a class one day on aviation. And one of these kids, you know, kept interrupting me, telling me, you know this. This class sucks is so boring and I said, you know, when you when your parents take you to Switzerland to go skiing for the weekend. Don't you wonder about the plane like how does it actually get you there? And one kid said. You know, if you think flying so cool, why don’t you become a pilot and, it's funny because I lived right like by LaGuardia Airport, which is one of the bigger airports in New York. And you know, I wanted to be a pilot. When I was a kid. It just I was just told I couldn't do it. 00:11:42 Billy And that afternoon I sat down a computer and googled how to become an airline pilot, and I saw that you could actually do it without any military experience, and you can go to flight school and you can work your way up through the ratings and you know, Long story short I did a little more research and I put in my resignation from the job and  I found the flight school in Florida that I was gonna commit to go to. And that's that. And that. 00:12:05 Andrew Yeah, that's it. Listen yeah, so that that kid really stirred you into action in a sense, so it was a good thing that you did that that class I guess. 00:12:13 Billy Yeah, Iwas so, you know, kind of grateful for the kid, even though it's like to wring his neck now, So I'm still. But you know? Something he said, you know, sometimes you hear something and it just kind of it just clicks in your head and that was kind of the you know the little, the little push I needed to be like, you know, just to realize that what I was doing wasn't what I wanted to actually do. 00:12:37 Andrew Yeah, well, that's fantastic, but it still took a while, so you tended buff and all that sort of stuff.  You said that you really liked that job at the time you're passionate about it actually. Yeah, but like I guess it was something you were…. 00:12:53 Billy I joke around - good at that was great at great at. Yeah, joke around it that I was better bartending then pilot. You know I had more passion for but. I put passion. Yeah, during drinks then I do for, you know, landing and landing an ILS. It was a - yeah, I just had a blast. Doing man, you gotta drink it all I wanted to you know we were able to it was New York so you know you do drugs and the whole thing it's it says they complete free for all and II'm in my 20s girls. Yeah. I'm making money and some getting absolutely smashed every night. What's there not to love about that? You know that was just. 00:13:35 Andrew Yeah, I mean at that age that's just something that a lot of people that would be just that, the perfect life. And I guess that that style of or that that type of living is just so normalized when everyone around you is into it as well and into the drugs and partying hard and smiling faces everywhere you don't hear about the so many of the tragedies. People probably cover them up a bit. But you know when everyone around you, I guess, was doing the same thing that you wouldn't have thought. “Oh, I've gotta stop doing this”. Or was this sort of a bit of a voice in the back of your head saying, oh, hang on this isn't right. 00:14:15 Billy So the voice was definitely in the back of my head. You know I didn't have you know all the people I associated with the time they weren't going anywhere? You know they were; they weren't going anywhere with their lives. There were a lot of and a lot of those people you know this is 20 years later still doing the same thing. But I had a voice in my head that was telling me that. You know I needed to make a major life change career change, but I also had the voice in my head telling me that. You know I was drinking too much and I was doing way too many drugs I was doing. I had a you know dual diagnosis, drugs and alcohol. 00:14:51 Billy My drug of choice was cocaine. My drug of no choice was alcohol, you know it's the one. I didn't have a choice. I was just drive by, but I wanted I wanted to - I wanted to cut back. You know I wanted to. I was I was sick and tired of being - not sick and tired of being sick and tired. I wasn't there yet, but I was sick and tired of being like, you know, polluted and constantly, you know, sleeping late and being irresponsible and not having any money to spend it on drugs and you know, gambling and stuff. I wanted to kind of be a little responsible. I wanted to mature and grow up a little bit, you know, but my lifestyle wasn't allowing that so. I think that combined with the realization that I didn't want to be a teacher helped propel me to look for a different career. And you know aviation, and that's what made me choose a flight school, you know 1000 miles away from New York down Florida because I could get a fresh start. Move down there and get away from get away from the bad habits you know. 00:15:56 Andrew Yeah right, so flat Florida was a good place for that, was it? 00:15:59 Billy Oh yeah, great place! Look, let's go to Florida to get away they. At the end of the day, you know that was my first geographical relocation is the term I learned in rehab. You know that I left to go to Florida to clean up my act and I was gonna go to flight school and I was gonna behave and study hard and, you know the second I was there and I met a buddy of mine from flight school was my roommate and he suggested we go out and get a drink and I said sure and he then suggested why don't we just get a bottle to ---? It'll be cheaper, will save money, and I said sounds like a plan. And you know, by the end of that weekend I had a drug dealer already in Florida and I knew half the bartenders in the city we were living in and it was just off to the races. I moved to get away from all that and you know, I just I brought it with me. I was still the same person down there as I was in New York. You know, just now they were just palm trees, you know it just that was the only difference and I don't have a job anymore, so I gave it up to go to Florida. So no. But that's how that we. 00:17:14 Andrew Did you get a bartending down there as well too? 00:17:22 Billy What's funny is I got a job bartending down there because I was running out of money. Because I went down there with some savings, but I hadn't planned on. I knew nothing about aviation. I mean zero. I knew I wanted to fly airplanes. I'm kind of smart. I could figure it out kind of thing and I'll go to school and learn. So I didn't. I really didn't do much research. I just kind of got up and went and. I didn't, I didn't know about little things like I needed a headset. Plane I got to know that I didn't, I didn't know I needed money for check rides you know, $400 cash apiece. I don't know how you do it over in Australia, but over here, that four hundred dollars cash, you know and I didn't got eight of them, you know? So like, I didn't have I had living money, you know for food and you know that kind of thing, but I didn't have drinking money which I hadn't planned on. or have drug money, planned on, and then I didn't have check ride money and everything else. So I needed to get a job and I needed and I found a bartending job, but I actually never showed up on day one because I had a flight cancelled and then it got pushed back and then it was mechanical and it was. I just never made it so - well I was - there once a month or so I was coming back to New York and then bartending for a weekend and then going back down to Florida. You know going backward $1000 so I. Just being able to stay. 00:18:36 Andrew Yeah, 'cause the money was that good. 00:18:38 Billy Yeah it was. It was great. I worked for a week. I make it, you know, $1500 cash and round trip was only $200 so it wasn't that big of a deal. So I was able to, so it's funny. I left to get away from it, but now I'm coming back every weekend and I'm, you know, immersed into it. I guess the work, but the ball kept rolling. 00:19:03 Andrew And then so you got through flight school. Obviously OK with no issues? Or - 00:19:12 Billy Basic issues, little issues, you know. Not major graduated past. I got through it. And I got a job. One of my friends from down there was from Northern California was actually from Reno, NV, and he got a job flight instructing in Northern California way up way up past San Francisco in the North End of the Valley and he called me up and said, hey, I got a job out here if you want it. And you know, I became one of the things I always wanted to do is travel and live different places and kind of broaden my horizons. I said, let's do it, and I went out to California, and one of the reason I went out there was he was, he was definitely a big drinking buddy of mine. He was another one of probably got a little bit of a problem. I haven't spoken to him in years so I don't know how he's doing, but it wouldn't surprise me if he if he showed up in his program somewhere, but - so I went out there because I knew it was just the party was going to continue and it was going to be a good time. That's what I did. I went out to Northern California and I moved in with him and I worked at his at his flight school and that flight school was the 1st place I ever worked where I got randomly drug tested. And you know something I don't even think I've mentioned before was that I was up until then, I was pretty much smoking pot on a daily basis. So, the way the way my life kind of worked was that you know I would, I would drink and do drugs like hard drugs, cocaine, accessing and stuff like that. But not every day, you know, I wouldn't - I wasn't drinking every single day. But I was smoking pot every day. And you know I would get home from work when I was a teacher. And you know, sometimes in wasn't going out drinking, but I would sit on the couch and you know, smoke, joint and watch TV and you know you eat pizza and junk food, and that was it, But I did drink, I was drinking to blackout. I was drinking to get to that level of insanity. You know, to not remember, be a complete lunatic. But if I wasn't drinking, I was smoking pot and so I got out there to California and now with the drug testing principle binding one and that's where my drinking really, really took off, so I wasn't doing any drugs, though I wasn't doing cocaine, I wasn't smoking pot, but now instead of like a normal day after work coming home and you know, barbecue and then smoking a little bit. Now, stopping at a happy hour or I was picking up a case of beers or a bottle of vodka or box of wine or something like that. And now I started drinking almost every day. And you know what? 00:21:53 Andrew Yeah. 00:21:55 Billy What I realized, you know not too long ago, and so right, means that you know, I always thought I'd just like to get extremely intoxicated. But what I realized in sobriety, you know, 7- 8-9 years since Friday was that I wasn't comfortable with myself. You know I wasn't - I didn't like to be sober. I had to be some type of intoxicated because I should. I don't know if it was easier for me or if I was more comfortable. Uh, what it was, but I needed to have some level of intoxication if I wasn't at work and. When I got to California, that's like I said that's when the drinking really took off because now every day I was drinking, and I wasn't doing anything else and like I said. When I drank, I drank to blackout like there was no stopping. Once I had that first beer. It was there was there was no stopping whatsoever and it usually accelerated the rapid pace, you know, so I might pick up six pack and come home and drink 6 beers. But then it's like now I have to go to the bar now I have to go do some shots. Now we have to get a bottle but then now and then I would drink the pass out every almost every night when I was out there and You know that was I was out -  it was out there when I realized that my problem wasn't going away and that it was more of a problem than I realized. 00:23:11 Andrew Yeah, OK. So the guy who got you that job, he was your boss, is that right? 00:23:19 Billy The he was just the other flying instructor was there about a month longer than I was. 00:23:25 Andrew Oh OK, right? 00:23:26 Billy He was like more senior than I was with the guy. The guy that ran the flight school, I don't even know what he was even doing in that business. I think he came from Silicon Valley. You know, as a tech guy and decided to buy an FBO. Yeah, this was a business guy, you know had airplanes in Renton? 00:23:42 Andrew So you were the same or yeah, you weren't accountable to him, really it was… 00:23:46 Billy Yeah, not really, no I would - I would have my own set flight students and schedule the times and just show up when I needed. To I didn't actually have to be there, so and I could change the time to anytime I wanted to. So if you know I was a little hungover in the morning, it was 9:00 o'clock with  say, you know, going to switch that time to noon. Or, you know, it was very it was - very easy to be completely out of control, so to speak. 00:24:10 Andrew Yeah, so when you say you didn't drink when you when you weren't. Intoxicated, and so that one of a better phrase, you know you were in that sort of normal state was that that was an uncomfortable state you were saying you weren't comfortable with yourself. You had to be high in order to feel. Good-yeah. 00:24:36 Billy You know, so I don't. I don't really know the answer to that because I never put any thought to it, you know, it never it never occurred to me. But like my free time. So here's the addiction, but the addiction, you know the addiction in my brain was that I was always thinking where is the next drink, you know where is you know when I woke up in the morning how to work, you know what I was thinking about is I'm going to go to happy hour or you know, so this place has a pool table and they have a decent happy hour, or you know it's not much going on today so I can always stop and get  - I could stop and get beers or wine or whatever. I don't think I realized I was uncomfortable with myself with my own thoughts and I don't even know that's a valid statement to say it was. 00:25:24 Andrew OK, yeah. 00:25:28 Billy It's more like that's what I did, you know? 00:25:31 Andrew Yeah OK, yeah, so you didn't? 00:25:32 Billy Like that, which is what? 00:25:35 Andrew So I was just going to say so you didn't like you said you wake up in the morning thinking I could go to this bar or do that you didn't ever or very rarely wake up and thought “I could either go to this bar or I won't go to any bar.” It was just waking up and saying which bar do I go to? Is that how it worked? 00:25:56 Billy I wake up in some days, just start drinking and go to the bar? I did that plenty of. 00:26:00 Andrew Oh yeah, I was just saying like some days you well, most yeah you didn't. 00:26:02 Billy All the time. 00:26:05 Andrew You didn't say I've got a choice here? I or will not drink or will go to the bar - was just always - Oh yeah – go to the bar that was so. 00:26:14 Billy Yeah, there was no choice. There was no thinking about it, but there's no. I'll give him today if you go for a run this afternoon. 00:26:18 Andrew Yeah right yeah. 00:26:21 Billy No, that was it. That wasn't - that wasn't what I was doing. You know, if  I wasn't at work I was drinking and that was just that was who I was and it was, and I could always be counted on to someone called up and said, hey, let's get a drink, yeah, well, I'm already there, man. I'm already I'm already five that go join the party, you know it's just a life and that was just it was what I did, you know with no really thought put into it. 00:26:48 Andrew Yeah, OK. So there you are, Northern California, off the weed and into the into the drinking. How long were you there for? 00:27:04 Billy I was out there for 10 months I believe. You know I got brought up. It wasn't. It's not when I think about my time out in Northern California. I don't look back at it and say oh that was a wonderful time of my life. You know, it's like 26-27 years old. I think back and it's just like a train wreck, you know, sort of. So I feel like it is so. The guy that invited me out there, buddy of mine but wasn't a very honest person and you know he sold it to me is going to make you know $10,000 a month as a flight instructor out here and I got out there and it was there, was no money to be made. It was very - I was broke the whole time I was out there and -  actually got a job bartending out there as well, why not? I was oh there wasn't much money made bartending in that little town either but. You know, I met a I met a woman and we started dating and it was a very toxic relationship to say the least. She was another alcoholic, you know. We kind of attract similar people and we drank - we drank the same - the same way. It was a, you know, a lot of fighting. A lot of argument kind of thing and it was out there like she validated how I would drink how I would drink. You know she never - she was older than me, had a lot of money and always had a full liquor cabinet and you know, kind of showed me that it's OK to drink in the morning kind of thing, you know. Whenever I did it before that, it was like to have a good time. But like she showed me like, yeah, you actually don't want someone back and have a beer and we would get into like a lot of arguments out there and it was out there when I was renting a room in someones house where I kind of like this is where my addiction like took off and it became like a something that was kind of out of control so that was where it was in Northern California when I got to that point in my drinking where I would wake up in the middle of the night and in order to go back to sleep I had would have to, you know, take a big swig out of a bottle of vodka and you know smoke a couple cigarettes, calm the nerves and then go back to sleep - you know, catch a little buzz in the middle of the night. That's where that started happening. 00:29:17 Billy So I liken it to like climbing a mountain. You know, leading up to that point. I was, you know, ascending this - and when I was out there, something happened when I was kind of teetering on the top of that mountain for a minute. And then I went down the other side and started descending. And that was when my drinking really started to take off. It's kind of like, you know, an avalanche or a, you know, a snowball getting bigger as it rolls down the Hill. I I I liken it to that it's it's kind of - that's what I think of when I look at it. 'Cause like I said, I started drinking in the middle of the night. That's when I was drinking more to sustain than to really have a good time at that point and I noticed it and I saw it and I was aware of it. You know, I'm a very kind of self-aware person. I'm self-aware of how I act around people, how I present myself. And I notice that there was something wrong and that I was kind of out of control. And that's when I started to kind of be a little nervous, you know. 00:30:22 Andrew Yeah, OK, and what about people around you? Other than your girlfriend, there are people around you. Taking notice of this, or was there comments being made or though or did you not notice? 00:30:36 Billy The people around me was a happy girlfriend, whatever, she didn't notice. Uh, my buddy from the flight school he was just as drunk as I was all the time, so that wasn't an issue. But before I went out there even when I was teaching, my sister had made comments to me that she thought I had a problem with drugs and alcohol. My parents had made comments to me. My loved ones, my family members had made comments years past, so it was there in my mind. You know that it could be a legitimate issue. You know, but  still I wasn't -  wasn't ready - I wasn't ready to ask for help. You know, it wasn't - it wasn't at that stage. It was a - it wasn't bad enough yet, but I notice something  was up. 00:31:31 Andrew Yeah, yeah. Yeah, and then you you're in, yeah, you're in that environment or  as well when you. That age there's there are people around my family as well and sister and so on that do make comment and so on. But then there's the people that, you know, the girlfriends and so on that. Support you normalize it, and so which way do you go? Of course, you're going to go for the you know the  Avenue that makes you feel the best at the time? 00:32:04 Billy Yeah, the path of least resistance. 00:32:04 Andrew Well that's yeah. Yeah, yeah, that's what I'm trying to say. Yeah yeah, alright, so you took off from Northern California back over the East or it happened when? 00:32:16 Billy Yeah, so I went back to New York. I had to get out of there me and the toxic girlfriend were breaking up and getting back together and that whole thing I said enough of this. I need to make some money. I need to get out of here, I'm broken my car is falling apart and I got a flight instructor job back in New York on Long Island and. I moved back in with my parents. I was 27 years old. Moved back in with them because I got this very flying instructor job. But you know again now, I came along with me for the journey. You know, the problems you know my addiction and alcoholism was still with me. So I when I came back to New York, I brought it with me, but now I was living in my parents’ house in the spare room in the basement and I had to - I had to kind of hide it more. You know, I couldn't just be this raging alcoholic. Would support you know I had to- I had to hide it more and so it became a little more difficult. There was some challenges associated with that. 00:33:22 Andrew OK, do you think you hid it? 00:33:25 Billy Very well, no no - not at all. 00:33:28 Andrew Yeah, you thought you're doing a reasonable job at the time, I suppose? 00:33:37 Billy No, that's when my mother started saying like you really gotta tone it down and my father, I you know I believe he was. You know, at times I've seen him have be drunk to excess often and he was telling me how bad it was. I'll how bad I was coming across so there was there was a lot of people. And during this whole time being the toxic girl from California, LA, you know on the phone again, back together and breaking up and she - she's rich, so she's flying out to see me all the time, getting hotel rooms. And it just continued, insanity continued. I was only at that job a short period of time before I got my first airline job and it was with the regional airline. 00:34:21 Billy I'm not sure - You guys have regionals out there, you know? 00:34:25 Andrew Yeah yeah similar -  well similarities. So we yeah going out in the country areas. 00:34:33 Billy Yeah, so we got on the regional. I was flying at the Embraer 145. You know which is, you know 50 seats, that kind of thing, 00:34:39 Andrew Yeah, nice. 00:34:42 Billy Yeah I got I got my first job during that time, with American Eagle and when I guess I'm kind of jumping ahead here, but is that alright? 00:34:54 Andrew Yeah, it's good. 00:34:55 Billy OK. Yeah, let's  keep I just keep rambling - So I get this job - I got this job with the regional and I had to - the way they were doing it over here for a while with those regionals is they were expanding tremendously and you know what they would do is they would hold these job fairs. And you can go to job fairs and then maybe 10 airlines at and you only drop the resume off at all of them and you kind of do a flip well on the spot interview and this one happened to be just for one airline and about 200 people showed up and it was over here in in in Queens, NY. Yeah. You know this is, like, uh, this is where the drinking was very prevalent in my life and was doing some damage you know? And it was, it was affecting me greatly and before I went in for this for this interview, was on a Saturday morning. I had my last drink on Wednesday. Why that's significant is because? I knew that if I were to get this airline job. That I needed to be my sharpest and, on my game, and, you know, not going there, you know stuttering and exhausted. Looking and I need to do my best so. I made a decision to not drink past Wednesday. I don't remember if I got drunk and I don't use 20 years ago. But I didn't drink Thursday. I didn't drink on Friday. And I showed up to this interview with a clear head and you know the color back in my face and ironed clothes. And I was there on time. And then I got the job I passed that bar and, you know ,got brought down for the simulator portion.  I got that part and the most significant part about that was how I knew that I need to stop drinking days ahead of time. Now is only 27-28 years old. It's time, but I had to stop days ahead of time. So I was, you know, mentally available for this interview and. When I left and they said, you know, welcome aboard. We're going to have you down for the simulator portion I went out. I went to a buddies apartment and I stopped and got a 1.75 liter bottle of Smirnoff and I drank the entire bottle at night in celebration, whether I was drinking in celebration or whether I was drinking just to get drunk or whatever it is. You know, making up for lost time was whole 2 days where I didn't have a single drink. I managed to drink an entire handle of vodka by myself. 00:37:39 Andrew Yeah, right, right? So that was from the Wednesday to the Saturday you made that you must have been highly motivated to get that job must have thought it was pretty important to you know that interview was very important in your life. 00:37:53 Billy But it was. It was so important. I gave up two days of drinking in a row. 00:37:57 Andrew Well, I'm a well I think you know you've given up 11 years of drinking for this interview, so I reckon that's pretty awesome. 00:38:04 Billy There you go, man, now we're talking. 00:38:06 Andrew Yeah, very good. So when you when you -  when that Saturday came and you had a few days off, that would have been one of the rare times - seems that you had, you know two or three days off drinking in a row sort of thing. Did you - did you start thinking “Oh well, when Saturday comes and you know for now this interview  well, maybe it's yeah, it's a good time to - to stop drinking and you know this career all might save me” or that sort of thing? Or did you just think that's it that vodka -  that's going to happen no matter what you know? 00:38:44 Billy Oh yeah, no, that was - no matter what, you know, 'cause one of the things I was looking for to the airline career was going to all these exotic tropical locations and in these foreign countries, and you know - being you know the whole - what is it? You know the whole… 00:39:06 Andrew Yeah, that that that whole image. 00:39:07 Billy That whole different lifestyle that that jet set lifestyle where it's, you know it's one big party across the globe. That's what I was looking for. You know that's what I was. 00:39:15 Andrew Yeah yeah so so. 00:39:16 Andrew Drinking and so on was just that- 00:39:19 Billy Yeah, there was - I wasn't stopping - I was falling down. No, no, there was no slowing down even though I knew that there was something there was no plan because now it was going to be really accepted. You know, once I - you know I was gonna meet my people, yeah, that's what I thought. 00:39:30 Andrew Yeah, right - Yeah, OK - and how did that turn out? Did you? Did you meet some of your people? So in that in the industry, well, I mean, before you stop drinking. I know we've met our people now, but. Yeah, the people we wanted to drink with and party with. Yeah. 00:39:51 Billy So I drank on a total of two overnights as an airline pilot, I went down to new hire training and I barely squeaked through because I was drinking like an animal now. I had a hotel room, you know I had my own hotel room in training and there's a bar across the street and dirty little bar and. Yeah I squeaked through training, made it through barely. I did not put my all into it. I mean even though you know I work to get there. You know my addiction was taking over at this point, it was. You know it was. It really was taken over, you know it was -  it was looming over my head and I was, you know, showing up late to ground school and stuff like that and so I made it out to the line. And on I drank on two overnights, one I had an overnight and. Cleveland, OH and I got a 1/5 of vodka and drank it by myself in my hotel room. That was a very glamorous and then I another night we went - t was an overnight Washington DC and I went out with the with the Captain went out and got a burger and had a couple of beers and went back to the hotel and I was gonna go to sleep but I had a couple beers and now I need to keep drinking and I went I went out, and it must have been passed d whatever time they stopped selling booze down there and I guess it was Virginia where we were staying and I couldn't get - I couldn't get like I couldn't get a beer anywhere and you know it went through my mind to like go into, you know the supermarket and just run out the door with a with a case of beer like I'm an airline pilot you know, and I'm considering robbing a supermarket to get a beer, you know. So I just sat there in a hotel and then smoke cigarettes pretty much in until I was able to fall asleep until that anxiety of not being able to get more alcohol anyway. And those are the only two overnights that I that I drank on that was my that is the extent of my jet setting alcohol, alcohol fueled glamorous lifestyle was drinking by myself. And smoking cigarettes in in the hotel room after drinking 2 beers. That was it, that's it. 00:42:16 Billy And then I got in trouble. And then the.. 00:42:19 Andrew Yeah OK so say 2 overnights and living the dream living well for the first one you were living the dream. The second one you were sitting around smoking cigarettes. Yeah and yeah. 00:42:25 Billy Let me - So it was. And then yeah, so this is a - So I mean that just shows the insanity, you know, right? Just right there that you know the - how the addiction had taken over. You know how it's I mean it's -  I can't sleep if I don't drink, you know, I wasn't able to sleep. It was I was uncomfortable. I was stressed out, you know, the Captain probably had two beers in and a burger and went to bed. I'm sitting there thinking about robbing a supermarket, you know it's insanity, yeah? And shortly thereafter is when I got in trouble and I'll tell you that story now. 00:43:12 Billy This this is a doozy of a story. 00:43:13 Andrew Yeah, well I  - yeah I -  just before you start this I wanna say this is I agree I have heard you tell this story. Once in depth, in detail before and it's, it is a doozy. So yeah, go, go ahead! 00:43:34 Billy Well, don't  get don't get everyone listening to too excited I don't wanna disappoint. Well yeah so during this time now that that I'm with an airline, we have CASS privileges in the United States and I think we I think we talked about this. We're the only country that has this and what the CASS privileges. I don't even know if I know the acronym, but it's crew access security system or something like that, and what that allows us to do, is any other airline that's in the CASS system, which is pretty much all US carriers you know, Delta, American, United, JetBlue, Southwest any  Alaskan Hawaiian, any airline that's based in the United States? I can just go up to the ticket counter with my ID and request the jump seat. And if there's room in the cockpit if there's no other, you know they're on airline personnel in the in the cockpit jumpseat. I'll be granted the jump seat, and if there's room in the back, they'll give me a seat in the back and it's a wonderful thing I mean I don't even know how they came up with it to allow each airline to allow other airlines pilots just access their cockpits, but it's a great - it's a great tool. It's great way to travel. It's you know we're even allowed to Jumpseat on FedEx and UPS and DHL and all the other carriers that are, you know, cargo carriers as well. So now I have that and me and the toxic girlfriend out in California are still arguing and still getting back together and you know that whole the whole mess of a relationship that so many of us are familiar with and so on my days off, even if I have two or three days off and flying to California and spend a couple days and coming back, and you know it's a, it's a long flight, it's six hours, so it's been spending most of the time in the air getting there and getting drunk and then well, it was a typical weekend visit out there and I went out to California and we got rip roaring drunk and played golf or whatever we did. I don't play golf anymore since I sobered  up. I don't have the patience for it, but I would just throw that out there. But when I was driving a golf cart nice and drunk smoking big fat cigar it was golf was great. And she played, and you get absolutely hammered and we got in a super huge fight one night. You know, probably over nothing and I left. I took a whole - we've been drinking all day and I left the house, with the cold beers in the fridge with me 'cause I I think I paid for them or I stole them - who cares? Whatever doesn't really matter. I took them all and went to went to some crappy hotel by the airport and she lived in Redding, CA which was an hour flight North of San Francisco and you know you fly up there in a little, you know puddle jumper like Cessna Caravan or yeah You know Embraer 120 Brasilia. Either way, small little regional service, and I got super plastered at the hotel that night and drank my sorrows away or celebrated or whatever I was doing. 00:46:33 Billy And the next day I woke up and there was a little bit of vodka left, so I drank that because you know you can't smell vodka peoples breath right is not the way the old the old boomer was for the alcoholics - cant smell vodka? Regardless, anyway I go to the airport and the flight I needed to get to San Francisco was delayed by however long. So by the time I finally got San Francisco I had missed the last flights that it used Coast and the way it works from the West Coast to the East Coast like San Francisco or LA to New York. You know they depart all day, but there's a certain window of time where it might be you know 5:00 or 6:00 PM West Coast time where they don't depart again till 11:00 o'clock or or midnight, and the reason they do that is because they'd be landing in New York at, you know, three in the morning, so there's like a window and I missed - I missed the last flight and being, you know, I was a raging alcoholic and I was already super hungover. You know, the I was still probably still drunk. I went out in San Francisco and I proceeded to get blackout drunk. I hardly remember any of it - hardly even remember going into San Francisco. You know it's 13 years ago or something. You know it's a long time, but even right afterwards I didn't remember it, so I was pretty much in a blacked out state at this point and it's I went to go kill some time and I had never been to San Francisco before, so I hopped on the subway somehow figured that out and I went into the city and I remember what I did is I when I first got I went into a like a deli or a little convenience store and they sold the little airplane bottles and I got a couple of those. Put them in a little bottle orange juice, like the block around and drink my orange juice, my screwdriver and I don't remember anything after that. 00:48:36 Billy Last thing I remember.  Not true. This this kind of some fogginess anyway. The next thing I really remember is that I'm doing a walk around on an airplane - I'm actually outside of an airplane I'm preflighting and his this guy comes over to me who is the first Officer of this airplane and he says to me, he comes up, and he says, you know, who the hell are you? What are you doing? And I said to him, probably not so nicely like mind, your own business. Probably some real nice colorful language. and I remember him storming off and going underneath the airplane and walking up to the jetbridge and like I to this day I remember. The guys face. I remember what he looks like how high how tall he was under the whole thing about this guy. But anyway, I continue doing what I'm doing and I do and I continue preflighting this airplane. 00:49:40 Andrew So yeah, so he had a uniform on? 00:49:42 Billy Oh yeah, yeah I was I was in uniform this whole time. I was in uniform since San Francisco. Which so anyway, so I go out there and I finish pre flying airplane after I tell FO to, you know go away and I'm fast forwarding here a little bit and I'll. Come back to it, The next thing I know. I'm being asked to leave the airplane. I go fall asleep on a chair somewhere. What turns out? The reason I got asked to leave that airplane is because I was preflighting an airplane for an airline I didn't work for, airplane I didn't fly in a city that I was not based in. So I had become delusionally drunk. And this happened a few times, you know? And this, this is the worst delusionally drunk, So what ended up happening to me is I wasn't even in New York. I was in Chicago at the time and I was so I was so new at the airlines I had never even been to Chicago. So not only had a preflighted along airplane for the wrong airline and wrong city, I had also caused quite a stir in terminal, asking passions of what city I was in. So I am an airline pilot. In Chicago, asking passengers what city it is, you know? And it's I mean, that's a rational thing to do if you don't know where you are ask people, they are right. You know there's no signs in Chicago that say you know you're in Chicago, you know. So I just they just. Assume everyone that they put. But everyone knows where they are when they're in, when they're in the airport. Esspecially the pilots you know. So what I must have done is because I've never been there. You know it was in American Airlines terminal and it overlooks the skyline of Chicago, The Sears Tower and all that stuff, and I must've been looking at that. Like man, I know that's not New York. Not really certain, but I know it's not home. You know, I've never seen this this view viewpoint before. So I was going around asking people what city I was in and those people in turn we're going and finding TSA and you know airport, police and security and the airlines and saying we got drunk pilot. So in addition to me walking around the airplane looking for things to write up, which I don't think I found anything to write up, I don't think. 00:52:15 Andrew Now that's a good thing. 00:52:16 Billy I don't know, maybe I was just being sloppy. 00:52:18 Billy Maybe that was a bad miss something but, you know, beside with doing that and with the stumbling around drunkenly making friends in the airport, everyone was looking for me. I mean, everybody was looking for me and I remember trying to get on a flight. Because you know. Like I said, we can just jump so we just show up in the terminal. I remember trying to get on the flight and the guy said you sound you smell awful. You really gotta go hide. You gotta go. You gotta go sleep it off. So I remember going finding some chair and you know, in the terminal kind of in the corner and you know woke up a few hours later and I went to go get on another flight - I had to work that afternoon. I was on I was on call is. Only served in New York. Uh. You know, by now, the slcohol is kind of wearing off and getting my faculty is back and I have to go to work and the alcohol is wearing off. I have to go to work and I still have to fly to New York and I go to another gate and say I'd like to list on this flight. Theguy said sure and I give my iID  - types something in and he says “hold on one second”,  makes a phone call and says hold on right now. Someones coming to speak to you. I don't think anything of it.  These two gentlemen show up. One with an American Airlines badge, another within American Eagle Badge and American Eagle is where I work at the time, and they said you need to come with me right now and I said, I don't know who you are. You know, where are we going and what ended up happening, so here's my first very introduction to HIMS program, which I never knew anything about. Yeah, well apparently they showed us a video of it when I was in new hire training, which I just you know, didn't pay attention to or didn't even watch, you know? Maybe I wasn't even there, who knows, but I knew nothing about it. It's funny my uncle was recovering - he was recovering addict. He was a dock builder and he build docs and you know he built all like those pilings in the East River around like the World Trade Center and all about Manhattan and the Brooklyn Bridge and all that stuff. And  he hurt his back and then he got addicted and he at one point told me that I needed to go into rehab. And you know, I said well, I'm a brand new pilot with an airline. How do I tell them I need to go in the rehab and he said, yeah, I guess you really can't, but you know you need to you need to do something.  So I'm  kind of backing going back and forth a little bit here, but - so I went to a couple of AA meetings after my uncle told me that and you know, I heard some similarities, but it wasn't the point. I didn't need to go. You know, I could do this on my own kind of thing. So anyway, Fast forward again back to the back to the terminal these two guys -  they said you need to come with me right now and I said, I don't even know who you are. I'm not going anywhere and the one guy was the head of the Pilot Assistance Program for the API, which is American Airlines pilot and the other guy, was the chief pilot for my airline and this guy, Dave. He had a phone, he handed the phone to me. He said “this is your crew scheduling. Tell them that you're sick” and I said “I'm not sick”. I said I'm what – “what are we doing”? He said “listen, tell him that you're sick that's all you have to say is I'm sick they know that you're going to be talking to him. Tell him that you're sick, or if you don't, you're gonna end up on the news because the news vans are already looking for you.” 00:55:47 Billy I mean, I'm a rational person and I was just, you know, coming off a major Bender. But I knew that there was something wrong with that situation. So I just said yeah, I'm sick and they said OK, we're removing you from your schedule. And they the guys took me downstairs into the American Airlines flight office and sat me down in the in the room. They said we'll be back in a couple hours and unbeknownst to me - the way many airlines do this through their HIMS program is in in normal times non pandemic times is once a month. They have a meeting for about 2 hours and in each base and then that  base will be the pilots from that base that are in his program. The chief pilots, the employee, Employee Assistance program personnel, managers, whoever from the company that writes reports maybe the AMEs, the doctors and the people from the Union. The Peer Monitors the sponsors, the volunteers there. This meeting lasts about anywhere from, you know, one hour to three hours. And that's where we fulfill the requirements for the for the FAA, and that's where we get the doctors letters and the peer letters and the Chief Pilots letters. And it's a big meet up with all the pilots and that meeting was going on right then at that time in Chicago - right underneath in the crew lounge where I was stumbling around upstairs. 00:57:16 Andrew Well, what a amazing coincidence, eh? 00:57:21 Billy Well, yeah, you say coincidence right? But well, what's a coincidence? Its just is God's way of staying anonymous so - I don't know. I happen to be in the right place at the right time. So these guys meeting  and I still don't know what's going on. I'm sitting in Chief Pilots Office and they say will come back in a little bit. And they come back in. And it's that guy, Dave. It's my Chief Pilot. It's the American Airlines Chief Pilot. And it's the guy that's the head of the Employee Assistance Program for American Airlines. And thank God you know, American Airlines is a massive company with a massive HR Department and they understand disease of addiction. You can't terminate someone. For you know, having a qualifying illness, which addiction is. What I had going against me was that I was a pilot and I was still on probation. I've only been with the airline for about 3 months and the way we do probation over here is it's a year from the date of hire. And you know, if you get any trouble gone, they just they just terminate you, you know no questions asked and there's nothing in that you can even do the same job. But what they did is they came down and like I said, I still don't know what's going on and his name was Rick. And Rick said to me, he said, you know, were you drinking last night? And I said yes, and he said, no, he's still feeling the effects now and I said yes and said “you think you have a drinking problem?” And you know, I don't think I've ever had anyone that I didn't know asked me that question before and I'm looking around the room. I don't know any of these people, and I don't know where the hell I am. mean, I have two different colored socks on like I was just a mess like unshaven. And when he asked me, do you have a drinking problem? I said yeah I do I I know I have a drinking problem. You know I got honest the first time with that rigorous brutal honesty. And he said, “do you want - would you like to get some help?” And I said, “yeah, I think I do. I think I'm ready to get some help” and he said, “we can get you into treatment in the 28 day rehab”. And I said “yes, I said I think I need to go”. And right then when he said that it brought me back to the conversation I had with my uncle. But my uncle had told me you need to go to rehab and I told him I couldn't and then this guy said that to me. So like I wasn't even - I was even worried about losing my job. At this point I wouldn't worry about any of it It was like, you know I'm in trouble here, you know, and it's now, it's like real trouble. But the guys telling me the news vans are looking for me that Chicago police are running around the airport, looking for the drunk pilot. And now I'm in this weird office somewhere with these people I've never met asking me about drinking. And it just hit me and I said, “yeah, I need help like I need help” I'm ready to get help and he said “alright we can”. He said “you have two options.  We can get you down there today down in Texas today to do treatment”. I was thinking Texas. I didn't know at that time. He said, “well, you can go back to New York, gather some belongings and fly back”  And my luggage. By the way, I didn't have any luggage - gone. Somewhere in the journey to the West Coast to Chicago, maybe I left it outside the airplane.But luggage was gone and I just said, “you know what? Let's go today, you know, just put me on a plane. I'll go today” Because even then, yeah, I was still intoxicated. I mean, I didn't get to rehab for another 8 hours I still blew a .08 blood alcohol content, so I was probably .20 blood alcohol at the time I even knew right then that if I went back to New York it was a good chance I would never get another plane to go down the rehab. So, I just went. I went out with them and they got Rick, the EAP manager and Dave, the guy that brought me down that made me call crew scheduling. They were flying to Dallas so they flew down with me. They took me to a store, bought me some underwear and a toothbrush, and drove me over to rehab. And that was that. And I still don't even know whether or not I was gonna keep my job - I had no idea. I didn't care, though. You know I didn't care. I was beating up, you know, and it was - I had to get how to get out of that hole. Man, I was just digging, digging, digging. Then I finally saw a way out and I just kind of grabbed at it. You know so. You know? 01:01:32 Andrew So when, yeah, so when they asked you? Did I say, do you think you've got a problem and do you need help? Is that is that what they were saying in that conversation? Initially when they say - Yeah, so when you said. “Yes I do”. That would have been was that the first time you admitted that to yourself and the others that you thought that you did have a like that when you verbalize it? Is that the first time you said it out loud? 01:02:11 Billy You know, there have been many times it had the argument with girlfriends or the OR the family that you know I got a drinking problem and I don't have a problem. You have a problem, you would drink it if you had to deal with what I you know, that kind of thing, but I think it was the first time I ever like I surrendered. You know I'm in a group - I'm in a group of men that I've never seen before in my life. Asked me if I would drink a problem and the answer is “yes”. You know funny part about that story was like I said, I was a pilot on probation. And I found out later on much later on year later, whatever that if I had answered any of those questions differently than I had answered them that day. That they were gonna take me upstairs and say good luck. You know I would have lost my job on the spot they would terminated. Me 'cause I was on probation. I was absolutely drunk, but being the fact that I admitted I had a problem with alcohol and I wanted help, they extended a hand to help me. 01:03:04 Andrew Well, that that moment it of sanity amongst all that insanity that was going on. Yep, you know that time you  said it, did you feel when you feel good about saying it or… 01:03:19 Billy I don't know. I honestly don't know. It's probably some type of state of shock. I don't know, not good. I don't know if it was a weight off my shoulders. I don't really have the answer you. You know, I, I know I sat on that plane of that MD 80 I had a window seat and I had to look out the window the whole time because you know, I had tears coming down my eyes all the time, just like “what the hell what is going on what is it I'm actually doing here?” Like “what kind of situation have I gotten myself into”, you know? And that's what was going through my head the whole time, so it was just like bewildered, confused. Maybe made some weight off my shoulders, I don't. I really don't even have. An answer to that. I mean all giant swirl of emotions. 01:04:15 Andrew So you got through it. You got through the 28 days. 01:04:18 Billy Graduated, graduated with flying colors. The whole  time I was down there, I never once admitted to doing any type of drugs. 01:04:23 Andrew All right? 01:04:28 Billy I just Admitted to having a drinking problem. I figured the airline doesn't need to know that I had a problem with drugs. I'll keep that to myself. And you know, I can be charismatic at times and I knew what the counselors wanted to hear and I told them everything they wanted to hear and The funny thing is I was done with drinking. You know I was - I was done. I did not want to drink ever again because it really beat me down that much. But the thought of you know, maybe partying, maybe doing a little recreational drugs here and there. It was still in my mind it was still there. So I cooperated and graduated and I told him what they want to hear and I did the homework that they gave me on the steps. They kind of introduce you to the first five steps at that rehab. I did the homework quote unquote that they asked me. And I went back to New York back with my parents. And I was out of work for a little bit. 'cause you know, we surrender our medical. When we go into the HIMS program. And I was driving a - I was driving a like a Lincoln town car tune like an - the limo kind of, you know, most people going to and from the airport. And I was driving one of them and I was going to some meetings and I was getting involved. Kinda, kinda, sorta get involved. I got myself sponsor and then I started doing. I started doing drugs again, you know. So I was hanging out the same people doing the same thing. Nothing had really changed except now I didn't have a job. I had a different job. And I was doing the airline requirements, but I kind of immediately figured out about the random drug testing when that was going to happen and I knew that you know Saturdays and Sundays they weren't only for a drug test, so if I went out on a Friday when I hung out with some friends that might have been m doing drugs or whatever, that that I could do a little cocaine and it would be totally out of my system by Monday morning so, that's what I was doing. You know, and immediately led me to - I don't know if you've ever done cocaine, I'm sure some of the anybody who's listening may have as I know I'm not the only one. But it's very hard. It's very hard to do that and not drink, you know? So I did it a couple of times and then afterwards it was like. I'll just drink this to come down just kind of make it come down a little easier. A little less painful. And then it got to the point where it was like, you know, I kind of feel like doing drugs. I don't really have the money, so I'll just drink. I was gonna do it anyway - Just, you know, took off again. Sso I  made up for lost time, you know. It was my disease was doing pushups the whole time getting stronger while I wasn't drinking and then I started doing weird things I started. You know, getting hotel rooms by myself and some like dirty $30 a night hotel room just to stay there and I'm just completely drunk. So I was living my parents at the time. I couldn't let them know I was drinking. So I'm doing that. I'm driving with a bottle of vodka in my trunk. You know, I figured it was in the trunk and I got pulled over by the police. They couldn't search the trunk without a warrant, whether that's even real or not. I have no idea, but that's what I told myself, so I had a 30 minute car ride. I would stop twice and take a swig out of the bottle in the open trunk on the side of the highway like I was doing psychotic, crazy things. And eventually I got caught in a drug test. I came up hot for drug test and the airline said we'll give you one more chance will give you one more treatment, but this one's it and you're paying for this one so I took this. I took this drug test in one of our monthly meetings and I knew it was positive. And I was just waiting for the phone call and the phone call came. And it was the Doctor Who said he tested positive. “Did you drink?” And I said “yes”. And he said. “You know we're going to give you - we're going to talk about what to do with. We will be in touch”. So. That night is before they offered me the second treatment. That night I. -  gonna have one last one last for on one last party, do it right this time 'cause I'm gonna clean up tomorrow. You know? So that's what I did. I went and got you know, another bottle of the bottle of vodka. I guess my drink of choice is Vodka and Heineken.  I went to another little crappy hotel room. And I proceeded to drink myself into the stupor and I remember hardly any of it, you know, blacked out immediately, but I started making phone calls and I don't remember any of this and I called my sponsor who was another airline pilot and I called some pe

Transcript Hylton (00:00): I had a lot going on and there was the stress levels were probably way over the top. A couple of things happened very quickly. And then that resulted in me doing what would normally fix it, which would of course, be drinking more. I got to a point where it wasn't working anymore, was losing things that I cared deeply about. And it all happened very quickly. For me, flying is something that I really love. The fact that I was in a position with the amount of alcohol I was drinking that I may not ever fly again, was probably the biggest cursor for me to know that I was in a really bad spot, you know, to say that I didn't make me nervous to be around a lot of people that the whole world was drinking, it did, but, it was uncomfortable. And you had that feeling of not fitting in initially at first, but look it soon goes, and there's always somebody there. And strangely enough, a lot more than you think that aren't actually drinking as well. Intro (00:59): You're listening to flying straight, an aviators guide to navigating through a life of sobriety. People in the flying industry, and other walks of life, will share their experiences of living a life free of alcohol and other drugs. You will also hear from experts in the world of addiction and self-improvement join Andrew O'Meally, airline, pilot, and non-practicing alcoholic. As he takes you on a journey discovering how a sober life can lead to a deeper level of happiness. Andrew (01:35): Hello, everyone. Welcome to this fourth episode of Flying Straight -piloting a sober life. I'm your host, Andrew O'Meally talking to you from the sunny Coast, Queensland, Australia, although I'll be heading down to Sydney tomorrow to do ground school and two simulator sessions. It's the first time in almost a year that I've had to do this due to COVID. The airline has sprung this on with not a lot of notice. So I'm feeling just a little bit anxious about doing this. My mind has been so far out of the cockpit for so long that I've changed my mindset from airline pilot mode to that of a full time university student, completely different worlds. The good news is, from what I've heard, that it all comes back pretty quickly. Anyway, my guest today is Hilton Ward, and I have no doubt that his story will resonate with quite a few of you, especially if you've worked in out of the way, places. Hilton calls, Winton Queensland home, and he's the owner-operator of a successful charter business. And with that business, he manages both fixed wing aircraft and helicopters. I consider him a remote area expert. He flies both in the desert and around Island, Andrew (03:00): Scattered across the top of Australia. His schedule is always changing. So I'm really grateful that things have worked out and his plans to visit the Sunshine Coast have eventuated. So we chat amongst other things about living a life free of alcohol in isolated areas where strong drinking culture is often the norm. Okay Hilton, It's good to see you. I have finally caught you here on the Sunshine Coast Queensland. You're a hard man to catch. You could be in Winton Queensland where you're based or the next day I could find you flying up in the Torres Strait at the tip of Australia, flying helicopters around there. But at the moment, you've come to the big smoke to- well, the Sunshine Coast Isn't exactly the big smoke, but, you're here for some kind of meeting. What's that all about? Hylton (03:51): Thank you, Andrew. And good to be here. Tourism expo this evening. From lunchtime almost today. Just spreading the word, getting the word out there. We do, well, that's how our thing out at Winton, we try and show the Outback of Australia to the rest of Australia and, when the time is right, the rest of the world Andrew (04:12): Yeah. And beautiful part of the world out there. Yeah, absolutely. So you've brought your fiance along. she's come along on a free holiday? Hylton (04:21): Is actually my near enough, my opposition. She has her own business with four wheel drive buses and i'm aviation obviously. And, we're going to spread the word together tonight, so have all a collaborative approach to the outback and we're looking forward to it. Andrew (04:35): Oh, that's nice. Yeah. I look forward to getting out there. Have you found that there's many more, well it's only domestic tourism at the moment has suffered because of COVID or is actually booming a little bit because of the whole rising caravaning and Australians holidaying in their own backyard. Hylton (04:55): Exactly. And that's your answer. That's exactly what's happening, and it's great. And then they're going home and spreading the word and, of course it's got an on flow effect, the end of last year and by all indications this year looking amazing. So we're very, very happy, good luck. So if you want a good, good story. That's a good story. Andrew (05:14): Yeah, yeah, yeah. Excellent. So you're a successful owner operator of a charter business at Elite Aviation. How long has that been running for? Hylton (05:27): Uh, in it's 5th year this year. So, we operate a setback from above, but it's, to be honest. It's a fantastic lifestyle. It's love, absolutely love what I do. So that's all part of the journey. Andrew (05:42): Yeah. Okay. Yeah. Excellent. Yeah. I assume your company website, at least some of the destinations that you have to offer, and it goes on from the great barrier reef to the Whitsunday islands, Whitehaven beach, Gilberton Outback retreat, and Wollaman falls. And you also run dinosaur tours and movie experiences, and that's just scratching the surface there. One of the things I saw on the website was Orpheus Island. And when I saw that and I know to get out to Orpheus, that's in a sea plane, you did a fair bit of sea plane stuff. Flying Hylton (06:20): Used to be sea planes. And actually i it was me that instigated using helicopters. So I'm gonna put the helicopter on the IOC, but that used to be in a previous life. I was out there every day. So that was part of it. But these days and another operator, utilize that and yeah, it's going well. So that's good to see. Yeah, It was,, previously sea plane operation and that was great too, let's see. But the helicopters is always been my thing and tend to sway that way a bit. Andrew (06:52): Yeah. That seaplane gig That's my dream job. I remember that, you know, living somewhere in North Queensland and just flying out to those islands, I think that would just be magnificent.. Yeah, You've done some enviable flying stuff all around remote areas. And we could go on all day talking about your adventures out there, but as tempting as that is. I'd like to get into the adventure of drinking and sobriety. So how about we go back to the start? You were born in Chinchilla and I've never been to Chinchilla, but I know it's the Mellon capital of the world. And before our thoughts stray too far that's watermelons. Yeah. Okay, good. So you grew up there and is that where you had your first drinking experience? Hylton (07:44): No. No. In actual fact, I lived with my grandparents. My grandparents were very involved in the community there and I spent part of my young life with them. They bought me up part of it and, yeah. And that's why I was born there and, spend a bit of time there when I was younger. But no, I didn't start drinking really till I was about 21. Andrew (08:07): Oh, okay. Cause I just thought that sort of country, culture that drinking was probably a big, big part of that to socialize with the local dances in the local halls and that sort of stuff, but that, didn't really hook you at that stage of the game. No, not at all. When, when did you start, thinking that, Oh, wow, this is a really, really good ,fun thing to do? Hylton (08:37): Probably I'd say around the age of 21, I was, and obviously sociably at the time. That was the way to be social and, like everybody, I guess, would agree in most cases, a few drinks and you do relax and, and of course, once I worked that out, then I thought a few drinks was good. Andrew (08:57): Yeah. Yeah. Okay. And so early age in you say 21 and then, you're not exactly a young guy now. You're not an old guy. And in fact, you look very young for your age, I might add, but so you, you have been in sobriety for what, five or six years. Hylton (09:19): Yeah. Just coming up to five years. So This year, Andrew (09:21): congratulations on that. So, so you, you obviously, for the majority of the time you were drinking, you, had been a successful business owner and so on. So you handle the, or you could balance that drinking work life pretty well for majority of the time. Hylton (09:42): Yeah. And that was part of the culture and, and I totally enjoyed it. And did it work in my favor? Primarily when I was younger. Yes, it did really. It was very social. It was very accepted ,and I was in a good spot for, I've had a good life that's for sure. New Speaker (10:00): Yeah. So you mentioned to me at one stage, you, in your early days, you were a builder and you did a lot of remote area resort building. Where was, where was that? Hylton (10:10): Yeah, yeah. And that's obviously where the drinking came into it because it was a good way to get things done at the time. But, yeah. Anything, Heron Island Dunk with Bedarra, lizard Orpheus, all of those. I loved it, loved doing that too. It was a good opportunity to get round and, and, obviously we initiated the remote area style, which is what I tend to enjoy. Yeah. Andrew (10:33): Oh, so that comradery with the other word is, and so, I mean, on an Island, there's always the sun sinking in the West there somewhere you can find. And that tropical paradise North Queensland, it must've been, at the time as a young guy just fitting in. Yeah. The thing to do. Yeah, yeah, So it, uh, it wasn't a problematic type of thing for years. It was a means of socializing. Absolutely. Yeah. And you were just like everyone else you thought, I guess yeah. Drinking the same amounts? Hylton (11:08): I was probably, probably ahead of them a little bit, but that was fun in itself. Andrew (11:11): Oh yeah. Yeah. Okay. Well, what do you mean fun in itself? Hylton (11:14): No, I, tended to be, I've always, well at the time I was, uh, uh, quite a big drinker. I thought that was normal, but it probably wasn't. Uh, but most people accepted That was just how it was. Yeah. Andrew (11:26): Yeah. So was it a bit of a badge of honor, in a sense, that you drink a bit more like, there's Hilton he's a man, he can hold his drink and all that sort of stuff. Hylton (11:37): Absolutely. New Speaker (11:38): Yeah. Right. And then that didn't continue, i take it. Now at the last Birds of a Feather meeting, I, don't think you were there, you were probably tied up flying celebrities around the place or, or mustering or something like adventurous like that, the, the topic was, 'why did we start drinking?' Yeah. Why did we start drinking in the levels that made our life ended up being unmanageable and, within the group, all sorts of reasons came out that maybe contributed to like something, some people mentioned anxiety and fitting in, introversion. Of course, let's not forget, was that magic potion that allowed us to break down those barriers and, drum up the courage to talk to prospective partners. But in the end we said, it's why we stopped. So I'm not going to ask you why you think you were drinking to those levels, or you could, if you think there's one big factor that they may have done it, but it sounds like it just progressed over time. But what I'd really like to know is why you stopped, what got you to that point where you thought "that's it", or even the days leading or weeks or whatever, leading up to that point. Hylton (13:04): Yeah, mine did progress and it was, and I think anyone in that situation agrees that, I had a lot going on and there was the stress levels were probably way over the top. A couple of things happened very quickly. And then that resulted in me doing what would normally fix it, which would of course, be by drinking more. And then we all know that by doing that, that exacerbates the problem. And of course that didn't work. I got to a point where it wasn't working anymore. And all the things that I loved about what I did and, and people I cared about were obviously weren't an option for me at that time anymore. I was losing things that I cared deeply about, and it all happened very quickly. So, for me, flying is something that I deeply love. I obviously do it every, every chance I can. And, I do it for work. tThe fact that I was in a position with the amount of alcohol I was drinking, that I may not ever fly again, was probably the biggest, well by, it would be the biggest. So for me to know that I was in a really bad spot. Andrew (14:19): Right. Okay. So you were saying there was stress levels rising quickly. Was it, was that because of something that was going on or what was it like? Hylton (14:28): It was, yeah, and it was work related, not so much aviation related, but it was more to do with what I'd taken on and, a relationship at the time and, and, sale of companies and things like that, that all changed the way my world was going. And it was going beautifully. I thought they very quickly changed. And the way I dealt with it was the wrong way to deal with it. But at the time, that's what I always worked in the past was to have another drink and just relax and calm. It will be okay. But I was to the point where I was waking up and it just wasn't going to be okay. And then my way of fixing it was, was not going to work. New Speaker (15:05): Yeah. Right. So it was a, I guess, a short term fix and ended up creating a whole heap of other problems. Of course. Yeah. And so flying light aircraft, single pilot, and feeling like that, did you, get up sometimes and you you'd operate, you'd go to work. But I'm just thinking about, because for me in New Guinea, I was drinking excessively over long periods of time. And, and I go flying and I'd have these horrible sensations when I was flying you know, like I'm anxious or dizzy or whatever, you know, when steep turns and all that sort of stuff. How did you feel at that point of time when you were, you're flying around? Hylton (15:52): Uh, I'd actually got to a point where I stopped flying, because I knew things weren't great, that the job I had at the time, and that was part of the stress level was changed. It, changed significantly. And I just got to the point where I wasn't flying and I was just trying to get on top of me again, just get me back together. Yeah. New Speaker (16:15): Gotcha. And so you feel like you weren't, Hilton, you weren't you'd look at yourself and think, Oh, what what has - where's this all going? Hylton (16:27): Yeah, yeah, yeah, absolutely. It's three or four months earlier in the, you know, in the piece and Hilton was exactly what the person that we were all used to, I knew myself. It wasn't right. I knew something things weren't right. And, and they weren't getting better. New Speaker (16:40): Did, did that happen pretty quickly? And then, so what, one day you just said, that's it,, was there one day where something happened and you thought that's it? Hylton (16:58): People around me noticed that I wasn't myself and I guess the one day that would stick in my mind more than any other day was the day that my, stepfather, phoned me and said, he'd been talking to a gentleman named Laurie Shaw and he said, that would be the person to talk to. This is his phone number. I suggest you pick up the phone Hylton, but your, you know, you're in a bad space. Okay. So I did that. And, and that was the start of the rest of my life early. Uh, it got to that. Andrew (17:35): So we hear Laurie's name around a fair bit. He was one of the founding guys in HIMS. So before any support group, anything like that, or, or seeking medical advice, that was the first call that changed that sort of put the brakes on the whole drinking. Hylton (17:55): I tried to do it myself by talking to doctors and, and, and, and other people. So it wasn't like I hadn't talked to anybody. Hylton (18:05): I knew I had a problem and, and I needed to deal with it. And of course in this industry, you've got to be very careful how you deal with it. So you don't want the whole world knowing What's going on and this was handled from the moment I picked up the phone was handled. Just everything felt right there was trust and I felt even from that point onwards, there's a chance here to get things. Right. So, yeah. Andrew (18:30): Yeah. And it was it's ended up absolutely pretty good. So you, you've stuck your hand up and you go and seek some sort of inpatient support, or how did that work? Yeah. Hylton (18:46): Yeah. So at the time I was, um, I was in a terrible spot after talking to Laurie, he put some guidelines in place to move forward. He wasn't interested in what was wrong, really per se. He knew what was wrong. And he and his team got together and made a bit of a plan for me to move forward, which is what it needed. And, no, I didn't just stop straight away. I wish I always had strong, I wasn't capable of stopping straight away. I, it was still hurting. And, and I found that it was a lot harder than, well, obviously I knew it was a lot harder than, than I'd envisaged to be able to give up at that stage just to, you might get away with it for a couple of weeks, but you certainly couldn't continue at long-term and, and be happy. Hylton (19:37): And you've, you really need to be yourself and happy to move forward. So we made a plan. He organized for, inpatient help, we talked to another man Dr Mike Atherton who's another man i'm extremely grateful for, I care very deeply about him too. He's, a very good at what he does. And, I got myself back together and then, formed a new company, for myself or in partnership with another, another man in Ayer. And, and then we sort of branched out and ended up in, in, winter news. Um, uh, that, that just seemed to happen. Like I was saying, you know, just went from, uh, an opportunity, seem to arise there. And we took a chance headed out there and fell in love with the place and pencil. I'm still there. I call that home. I bought a home there and yeah. Yeah. But it's home to me. And, and, and my future wife, obviously Andrew (20:31): The dog and the dog. Yeah. That's important. Yeah. It's, very clear why you stopped those reasons why you stopped. And just back to that meeting that I mentioned the other day, Roger Healey was in it. And, u Roger always says these pearls, you know, Roger, yes. We were talking about, you know, why we stopped and why, sorry, what, why we started drinking and everyone's trying to work all this out. And then Roger, just out of the blue, as he does, he said, well, it's like the pickle analogy. And of course, everyone just stopped. And we said, well, what's the pickle analogy? And he said, well, you go into the supermarket and you get a jar of pickles. Now you open up the jar and you could sit there and go, well, when did that cucumber become a pickle? Andrew (21:27): Was that when the pickle first went into the jar or was it an hour after the jar or when I took the pickle out of the jar, it doesn't matter. You wouldn't go up to the guy working at the supermarket and say, Oh, excuse me, when do you reckon this cucumba became a pickle? And he'd look like you like, you're an idiot, obviously. So in the end we were saying, it doesn't matter when you change from a cucumber to a pickle. And we all agreed on that. And then we all sat there thinking we're just happy to be pickles. And that's what Roger probably tells us as Roger does. He tells those sort of stories pretty, pretty well. Yeah. So a lot of remote area work, that's been your bread and butter over the years. That, that can be pretty tough on a recovering alcoholic. Andrew (22:21): You know, as far as bonding with others are concerned and i found my time in GA was a long time ago. We didn't have Skype and access to social media and so on to connect. You know, we were out, like for example, I flew for a little while at Victoria River Downs station, fixed wing Heli Muster. And, we'd all sit around just drinking or, I can't even remember if that stage I was giving it a go of not to drink or I was drinking. It was that pattern of as , but always found if, there wasn't that, that bonding through alcohol, around the campfire or whatever, there's a dormitory. And we all stayed in. It was a pretty lonely existence. Now you spent a lot of time now in these remote areas and you're, you're forced together with these people on occasion and next thing, an esky or whatever will come out or Thursday Island, that's got a huge drinking culture there. How do you deal with that? These days being that the sober man, because it's hard to find people in sobriety often in these areas. Hylton (23:30): Yeah. It's surprising. I deal with it in a couple of different ways, but I don't find it threatening. I, and to say I didn't at first, wouldn't be true. I first I thought, Oh my goodness, how am I going to deal with this? At first I jumped into roles behind bars,, things like that, drinking water and lemonade and all that will suffice for a little while, but tends to become quite unattainable for me. I don't, if you're there for long periods, it just was, you'd become bloated and wouldn't enjoy it to assimilate, started to become normal, to be, not drinking was the norm. And, and certainly these days, I don't, it's not any sort of barrier at all. I just, there is in particularly these days, I think it's getting even better. there's non-alcoholic beers available now. Hylton (24:16): I'm not saying that's for everybody, but that's an option. And it's a pretty good option these days. And I've even noticed in the last couple of years, people who are starting to worry are starting to take up that option. and just so that they fit in just, you know, they can assimilate with other peoples there's. I think there's a couple of options there now, and I didn't really do anything different other than the , you know, to say that I didn't make me nervous to be around a lot of people that the whole world was drinking. It did, but it was, it was uncomfortable. And you had that feeling of not fitting in initially at first, but, looking it soon goes, and there's always somebody there and strangely enough, a lot more than you think that aren't actually drinking as well. Andrew (25:01): Yeah, it's amazing. Yeah. I found that when I was drinking that everyone drunk. Yeah. And then when you stop drinking, Oh, . He doesn't. And he doesn't, and you never noticed these people until it happens. Sometimes it's just being comfortable with our own company for a while. It's not forever, so, yeah. So, um, big day coming up in a few weeks, uh, you do know, hopefully, you know what I'm talking about. Hylton (25:32): Yeah. Strangely enough, I, um, yeah, to get it out there. I am 53. I have never been married. I don't have any children. And, the only thing I've been responsible for is myself. And I'm probably at that stage now where I feel comfortable enough with myself. I have had a dog for the last he's eight now, and that's the only dog I've ever had, but I've met a lady who, obviously care very much about, and we're getting married this year. So that's pretty good. And she has no children. She's never been married. So it's the timing. It's funny how the world just works out, but I'd certainly so happy. And, we both and we both enjoy what we do thoroughly and, I couldn't be in a better place. So, yeah, Andrew (26:17): Yeah, yeah. So the timing was just right. Yes. Yeah. Yeah. That's excellent. And not that it matters one way or the other, she she's a big drinker?, Small drinker?, Or, Hylton (26:28): Uh, actually small. I wouldn't even go medium compared to the old standard. Yeah. But she's quite social, but you're very sociable person. Most of Friday nights, she'll go to the bar or whatever, and yeah, it's just now it's nice. I, kind of liked seeing people being able to do that and enjoy it and yeah. Andrew (26:48): Yeah. I mean, as I've said in the past, you know, I don't go and lecture the evils of alcohol because it's evil for me, but it's not evil for everyone. So It's part of, part of life in a lot of ways, but yeah, we can't force our world on every control, the rest of the world. So that's. Yeah. so never been married before, did that have anything to do with the drinking or was it just the timing? Wasn't right. Hylton (27:22): I've worked remote most my life, but to say that the drinking didn't have anything to do with, it would be pretty incorrect. I think, you know, I'd hate to admit that, but you'd have to think surely I'd have to be part of it. Andrew (27:33): Yeah. You've done really well. You've, you've, you're a successful owner operator. You fly helicopters, fixed wings, sea planes, you know, you're head of tourism bodies in, out in the Outback. And, what's the other one? A music festival out there as well. Hylton (27:56): It's an Outback festival Andrew (27:59): President of that as well. So yeah, the future's all coming together for you. You're, you're living a really fulfilling, sober life and your story of not only managing your life as a sober pilot, but moving forward and overcoming challenges and working hard and persisting is really amazing. You know, you're, you're an inspiration for not only pilots, but those long distance truck drivers or people working on the land or miners or all those people that even though they're not pilots, they're in the same boat as you. Absolutely. Yeah. They're in these isolated areas and, and they're surrounded by those pressures of socializing and so on and limited support. And that's one huge thing there, you know, for you to be out there amongst, a limited number of people and no town nearby that it's really, you're drawing on a lot of strength within there. Andrew (28:59): So that's that's is just fantastic and you demonstrate that self-improvement all the time going from strength to strength from business and marriage and, so on. And the self-improvement is really important, but what I'm starting to see now, getting to know you is that selfless improvement where you're, becoming involved in HIMS and Birds and so on. So there's self, I like to call it 'selfless improvement' with your willingness to help others. So safe travels across those beautiful remote areas where you can be alone with your thoughts and away from the hustle and bustle and all that technology. Has been really great to have a chat. Hylton (29:44): Thank you very much, Andrew, and same to you and all the best. And, yes, for those out there that are sort of struggling with it all, just don't ever lose hope. Pick up the phone or talk to your friends. And that's all it's about is just connecting with people. Everyone we're all the same. So yeah, just stop the hurt and move forward. Take care all the best mate. Andrew (30:05): I find it really inspirational to come across someone with the resilience to maintain a sober life, even with the limited access to support a family or even a recovery group because of their sometimes isolated existence. I'm confident there will be those out there, not just pilots, but others from different walks of life, living in similar environments who will relate to Hilton story. Maybe you'll be able to put some of his advice into practice. I hope you have enjoyed this edition of Flying Straight piloting a sober life. I really appreciate the feedback and support from a number of you out there that have listened to previous episodes, all comments and tips for improvement and most welcome. You can contact me via email andrew@flyingstraight.com.au. And if you'd like to check out the HIMS websites in Australia, it is aushims.org.au. And for our friends in New Zealand, it's hims.org.nz And our U S friends it's HIMSprogram.com. I look forward to sharing another adventure with you soon. Speaker 5 (31:36): [inaudible].

Some links relevant to this episode: Dr Mike Atherton, The Sydney Clinic, Bronte, Australia: https://thesydneyclinic.com.au Professor Stephen Jurd: https://www.thesydneyretreat.org.au/our-people [https://www.thesydneyretreat.org.au/our-people] Osher Gunsberg's Podcast, 'Better than Yesterday' https://oshergunsberg.com Robert Bor, Centre for Aviation Psychology: https://www.centreforaviationpsychology.com/about [https://www.centreforaviationpsychology.com/about] Birds of a Feather:  boaf.org AusHIMS:  AusHIMS.org.au Transcript Mike (00:00:01): The antidote of addiction is connection. And I certainly got the, the motivation to start or to try and start a Birds of a Feather group through my understanding of a Doctors in Recovery group, which runs in Sydney and has been running for a number of years. Yeah. There's nothing better than seeing, you know, people who are getting their jobs back, getting their lives back and just talking to somebody about what may or might not be appropriate, but addiction is not the end of your career. You know, it may be actually the start of the best part of your life. intro (00:00:40): You listening to flying straight and aviators guide to navigating through a life of sobriety. People in the flying industry, and other walks of life, will share their experiences of living a life free of alcohol and other drugs. You will also hear from experts in the world of addiction and self-improvement. Join Andrew O'Meally, airline, pilot, and non-practicing alcoholic, as he takes you on a journey discovering how a sober life can lead to a deeper level of happiness. Andrew (00:01:16): Hi everyone, and welcome to this episode of Flying Straight, Piloting a Sober Life. My name is Andrew O'Meally airline pilo,t alcoholic, and your host talking to you from the Sunshine Coast or the 'Sunny Coast' as us locals call it here in Queensland, Australia. It's certainly nice to be here at the moment as we approach the tail end of summer. And if you're into the outdoors, especially surfing, this is a great place to be. And speaking of surfing, my guest today is Dr. Mike Atherton. Now besides being a keen surfer, Mike is a psychiatrist, addiction specialist and has been awarded a fellowship of the Australasian Chapter of Addiction Medicine a FAChAM. Mike has also spent time in the U S gaining a qualifications as a HIMS, Federal Aviation Administration, certified addiction specialist. And he's one of the only ones in this part of the world with that qualification. He's one of the founding members of HIMS in Australia. Andrew (00:02:20): And when he's not practicing as a psychiatrist, you might find it hard, pressed finding him as he often travels to secret places all over the globe, looking for that perfect wave. He's involvement in the aviation industry as a psychiatrist has contributed to many Australian pilots getting back in the air and living a better life. New Speaker (00:02:43): Hey Mike, thanks for taking time to talk with us here today. It's really good to, to have you here. Now. I understand that you may not know that I know this, but you're a pretty good guitar player and you're a keen gardener. The thing that particularly caught my attention is that you're a bit of an adventurer. So you've been up to New Guinea surfing in remote areas there. And in fact, I remember once, we couldn't catch up, I think it was for Birds meeting because you damaged your knee while you were surfing. What happened there? Mike (00:03:20): Yeah. I, uh, tore my cartilage on the second day of surfing in Vanimo in Northern Papua New Guinea up near the Indonesian border. And, yeah, that was, a bit lucky I was, still able to surf although it got worse and worse through the week. There was a part of me thought maybe I should have stopped and fly home, but, you know, when you only get away every year or so then, I just sort of carried on and took it easy and it sort of held up for the week. And, eventually I had to have surgery on it, and its back okay now, but yeah, one of the guys fractured a couple of vertabrae when we were out there he got airlifted out, so that wasn't particularly good, but, yeah, it was pretty rudimentary, medical services up there. Andrew (00:04:16): Right. Okay. Yeah. Well, what were you doing up there? Mike (00:04:21): Ah, just surfing, we, we have a group of doctors that we go away with intermittently we, that I was surfing and then every afternoon a group of the doctors would go into the town of Vanimo, and meet up with the local medical service and, provide some support services, education, procedures, policy sort of stuff. Andrew (00:04:49): All right. And is that something you do regularly? It's a voluntary thing i take it. Mike (00:04:55): That side of things it's voluntary. I mean, its sort of mixing the wonderful and the beautiful with a bit of kind of education and stuff. So they, the group I work with set, a number of different kind of facilities, one in Nias in Indonesia. And there's hope to establish this one in Vanimo where we provide, I suppose, again, education and restocking and kind of a bare emergency sort of equipment emergency room, providing them defibrillators, that sort of thing. We run a small conference, you know, educational conference type thing, and as part of the process. And, there is, you know, as an aside, which runs the, which then, through the proceeds of the conference, everything, we then provide sort of some of these medical equipment and expertise to these small remote, I suppose, communities at one end. And the one in the Maldives is extremely well-established Nias is pretty well established. And there's a few groups, so you can do a three month or six months or shorter. kind of stint on the Island, if you wish to provide medical services and, got some great waves out in the front as well. Andrew (00:06:17): I was just going to say depends on what the surf would be like, how long you stayed there! Mike (00:06:22): Absolutely. Yeah. So, yeah, that's pretty good stuff that goes on, yeah. Andrew (00:06:26): Yeah, that's great. So you've always been interested in becoming a psychiatrist, or what drove you towards that specialty? Mike (00:06:37): Oh, no, I mean, I started medicine, I wasn't ready. I came into medicine quite late in my decision making. I sort of decided relatively late that it was a good, seemed like a good career opportunity. And then I was a bit disillusioned during medical training. Eventually came out and was doing emergency work, emergency training. And then, in order to do that, I had to do either medical surgical or anesthetics, but that was really not very enjoyable when I started to train and I ended up in a psychiatric job as part of a GP training program, but I just absolutely loved the psychiatry rotation I did, and so I just stayed on in psychiatry, worked in the UK, in London for a few years. And then, a friend offered me a job, or told me about a job, in Sydney. And, at that time, my sort of life circumstances were ideally suited, to sort of, traveling over. And so came over to Sydney and, very soon kind of met my future wife and, then stayed here in Sydney, training, I had to go back to the UK to finish off some of the training there. Yeah, basically established myself in Sydney as a psychiatrist and, yeah, I loved every minute of it. Andrew (00:08:10): Yeah. Great. So you spend most of your time practicing out of the Sydney Clinic at Bronte. Mike (00:08:18): Yeah, that's correct. Yeah. I was working at St.Vincent's in Sydney for many years and ran the ward there. And then the homeless health service. Yeah. I think psychiatry is busy, I think, it can be, yeah, I think it's a job that you can have a work-life balance, but certainly there's a huge need for psychiatry and drug and alcohol support, you know? Andrew (00:08:46): Yeah, right. When you say you didn't get into it straight away, how old were you when you started the path to, where you are now? Mike (00:08:57): Well, I think it was the decision for medicine, was just the last minute of putting in my application in for university, I just knew I needed it. I just knew I wanted to go to university. I wasn't really sure what, I was going to do. I deferred the offer for a year, worked at a canned pie factory for about seven or eight months, and then went travelling around the world for seven or eight months. So, before I started my uni, which was, an amazing experience, you know? Andrew (00:09:29): Yeah. Great. I guess working at canned pie factory would have contributed to you being a vegan these days as well. Mike (00:09:36): Absolutely. So, yeah, some of the things I've seen, you know, are not to be repeated. Yeah. It was a pretty harrowing experience. Although at that stage, I was, you know, completely oblivious to that sort of stuff and, ate the cannned pies in large quantities whenever I could. Andrew (00:09:56): Yeah. Okay. That all makes sense now. So, as that path of becoming a psychiatrist that obviously took a long time, but it was over 10 years. Mike (00:10:12): It was for me because I had to go back to the UK, to get certain qualifications there, to ensure that I could then continue properly training in Australia. So, yeah. Then on top of that, I suppose there's been additional qualification, you know, the additional training in, addiction psychiatry, which is another two years. And then the FAChAM, which is the Medical College of Physicians addiction training, which is another two years. So yeah, it does. Andrew (00:10:40): So it's a radically different pathway, a psychiatrist to a psychologist. And I think most people are aware of that, but they don't really know what the difference in the roles are. I guess the desired outcomes are fairly similar, but the process is different. Can you just quickly tell us what the differences are there? Mike (00:11:03): Psychiatrist, I suppose, can prescribe medication you know, that forms a bulk of what we do. Whereas the psychologist, I suppose, is very much more in terms of talking therapy, group therapy, those sorts of things. Andrew (00:11:23): There's a guy. I don't know if you've heard of him Osher Ginsburg? He's a well he's, you may not have heard of him. He's written an autobiography, he's a television presenter, and he's an author and he's probably best known for his role as the presenter of The Bachelor. So maybe you've heard of him, maybe you haven't. I don't know, but the book I read is quite good. The reason I bring it up is he shares an analogy. Well, he's very candid with the support that he's had a lot of, quite a number of mental health and addiction issues throughout his life. And so he's quite an insightful guy and he talks about the difference between a psychiatrist and a psychologist. And I kind of like it, but I don't know if this will resonate with you. He, he says that, he uses the analogy of rally driving. And he says, the psychiatrist is like being the mechanic, making sure everything's firing properly. And the psychologist is like being the navigator, calling out the corners as your hurtle through the forest. Mike (00:12:34): Yeah, I think that's probably probably right. I mean, I think it's funny, you know, different people have different ways of working. I mean, I like to work with psychologists. I think that comes a bit from, sort of working for a long period of time in a very much team-based system in public hospitals. For a lot of psychiatrists, they'd prefer to work on their own and in isolation a bit, which, but certainly that, anology works, I think works, but you know, when you're working in, in unison with a psychologist and you know, that you know, you've got a shared goal and, you're talking to each other and, you're trying to provide the, the platform, I suppose, as a psychiatrist, that the psychologist can then, take that person on and mold them into what, you know, what that person wishes to be. And they achieve their goals and, self-esteem improvements, whatever it may be. So, yes, it's a good analogy. I like it. Andrew (00:13:40): Right, Good. So some of the concepts of addiction have been around for a long time. And I remember hearing a story about Bill Wilson and Bill's one of the co-founders of Alcoholics Anonymous. And he was having a conversation when he was in hospital suffering from alcoholism, with, a doctor called Dr. Silkworth and he explained to, yeah, he explained to Bill that it's not a question of willpower or moral character. And he says, it's a peculiar illness of the body and mind. The body of an alcoholic reacts differently to that of others. It produces an actual physical craving and also develop an 'obsession of the mind', an idea so strong that will make you believe in a lie, something that is just not true. And the mind tells you that it's okay to drink. So alcoholism they're saying is being a disease of both a physical and mental nature. And I know that's a pretty basic explanation of addiction, but I think it's not too bad considering that that conversation took place nearly a hundred years ago, that addiction is in factor a complex topic, but no pressure here, Mike, is it possible for you to give us an explanation of the nature of addiction? Mike (00:15:06): Yeah. Look, I think that's a fairly good description as you said, but I think they, you know, you are right, the brain or the mind, I suppose, of an addict is, has been changed. And, you know, it's not the brain of a normal person who doesn't have addiction. It's not the brain of somebody, the brain of that person may have been different, you know, in their childhood, for example. But that through the process of somebody developing an addiction, there is changes that takes place on a neurological level. We sometimes describe that as you know, neuro adaptation. or we can describe it as, you know, in more layman's terms, sometimes the terms 'hijacked', you know, where your brain is to be hijacked by this external process, which suddenly means that you operate differently, in the context of substance use how you perhaps used to, and that neuro adaptation, really takes place, when people are exposed to substances over a significant period of time, for different people, that period of time can be different. Mike (00:16:23): Some people its very quick and it can almost be the first or second hit of some substances, like heroin or methamphetamine, but for other people that takes long periods of time, you know, sometimes, decadesfor that adaptation to take hold properly and you often see that with alcohol, for example, where many people don't present until they're sort of, you know, thirties or forties, or even later. And, the changes that occur really, are an adaptation of their reward system and their motivation system, which basically means that they no longer, I suppose, respond to the more natural evolutionary kind of reward mechanisms. Their reward system is hijacked or to over respond to those substances, which they become addicted to. And, when those substances are in deficit, when they're, you know, they're not available or they're in short supply, the people experience overwhelming, cravings, and urges to reengage with those, and that's what we talk about called withdrawal, for example, would cause that, but it also by certain cues in their environment or, you know, just being exposed to those drugs, they can develop these overwhelming urges and overwhelming craving to consume these substances. Andrew (00:18:04): So that craving or wanting is often greater than the reward of actually taking the drug itself. Mike (00:18:14): Yeah. Well, I mean, these, unfortunately, these cravings and urges that, are not based in necessarily in reality, there can be a distorting of the person's reality to the fact that, you know, they no longer, well, the reality is distorted to the point where they no longer perceive their negative outcomes or using substances, and they only perceive this kind of overwhelming positive reward, which again, is not based in reality. And, when the drug is consumed, often, people can confine themselves to, being quite despondent and dysphoric in actual fact relatively quickly, but the negative consequences of that consumption are real. And I think that the main thing that we find is that, you know, the more people have the more urges, more cravings they have the less regard they have for the negative consequences of that intoxication. And they can take ever-increasing risks, they can take, more dangerous kind of decisions and that can lead them into really dark and dangerous sort of place, which builds, you know, shame and guilt and all of these other emotions that often are a que back into taking those substances again in the future. Andrew (00:19:46): Right. Okay. So you did mention that it's often a function of exposure to that substance, but I guess there's a genetic component that, you know, I heard a story that during the Vietnam war, there was a fairly significant percentage of, soldiers, US soldiers that used heroin. And then there was this big fear that when they came back into society back onto mainland us, that there'd be this epidemic of heroin addicts, but apparently that wasn't the case. So some were really affected, of course there were a percentage that were addicted, but there were some that once they got back to the U S they just put it down and didn't touch it again. Mike (00:20:34): Yeah. I mean, I think that there's a number of sort of concepts around that. I think that's true, you know, there are significant, genetic and also environmental factors, which can predict, the onset of substance use disorder. The presence of trauma is always talked about and people have traumatic childhoods, for whatever reason, I mean, probably to do with high levels of cortisol, which is a stress hormone, being present in, in their early developmental sort of time, there is changes to their brain which can occur and especially the dopamine reward system and it means it's much more sensitive to the influence of substance use and just seems to be that they have a much more powerful response to substances and therefore will develop addiction more easily, Genetic factors are also important, and we know that there are certain, genetic codes or genes that predict onset of other substance use disorders. Mike (00:21:43): And you'll often find it, you know, as I think you've experienced in your own life, that there is a family history often of addiction in people who develop addiction themselves. And that there is a risk that addiction can be passed down. And in some regards, the combination of these factors also important. So you can get, you know a load from the environmental factor a loadfrom the genetic factor. And, some of these things can combine in the case of cannabis trauma. And, the, angenetic codes can increase the chance to have a cannabis use disorder, you know, after sort of 10 or 12 fold in some individuals, the the is also mental health conditions, ADHD, antisocial personality disorder, bipolar disorder. These are all, conditions, which, for whatever reason, predict higher rates of substance use disorder. And so now when you're investigating causality and what you want to be sort of looking for these other possible, conditions, but also, exploring the presence of trauma and those sorts of things are going to be very important in providing the, the most appropriate treatment to those individuals. Andrew (00:23:10): Right. Okay. So Mike, you've trained in the U S through the organization HIMS, and just for listeners who haven't had a chance to download the previous episodes, HIMS is a supportive monitoring program for commercial pilots, pilots with substance use disorders. It's a not-for-profit that facilitates getting pilots back in the air safely after they lose their aviation medical certificates because of that alcohol and other drug use. So through that training, you became a U S HIMS certified addiction psychiatrist. Can you tell us a little bit about that and why you decided to get into the aviation side? Mike (00:23:55): Yeah, well, after training as a psychiatrist, I worked in inner city Sydney and, a lot of drug and alcohol problems. So I did extra training in that and found that it was something I really enjoyed. And when I went into private practice, I started working with a couple of the airlines in Australia, just by chance, and, you know, developed, I suppose, some knowledge about, the kind of issues that they faced and just happened to be involved with the early development of the Australian HIMS program with the likes of Laurie Shaw. And it really sort of was such an interesting time as we started to learn more and more about, first of all, the program of HIMS which is so incredibly successful in its ability to, manage addiction and turn around people's lives. Mike (00:24:58): But also, it's a safety tool within aviation in terms of keeping people's jobs, but also keeping the skies kind of safe. So, myself and Laurie, and a few of the other guys, Matt O'Keeffe and, those sorts of people got together with the union. And, we sort of fleshed out this, this HIMS program. And obviously as part of that, we were being driven very marked by the U S model which had been going for so long and so successfully. So, I did a bit of a, spent a little bit of time in Atlanta at the Talbot Recovery Center, Dr. Bedi, who, some people may know from some of the videos and things, and some of the information on the, on the HIMS website, especially the U S program, and, attended the advanced, HIMS training program in Washington DC. Mike (00:26:05): And then I returned a year or so later to do the training program in Denver and it's very useful to be involved in and to get the literature and the information that's coming from the U S because it is a world leader in this regard. And, and also to sort of network with those individuals involved in the whole HIMS program, both in the U S and worldwide, and, that's led on to me, authoring a chapter on addiction in one of publications from Robert Bor. Who's a clinical psychologist based in the UK and works with the UK Civil Aviation agency on addiction in aviation, and also how to assess and treat that. And, I think one of my roles as an addiction psychiatrist, within the Australian HIMS is really to make sure that we don't stray too far clinically, from what the American system provides in order to try and meet kind of a local market, so to speak. I mean, we have to stay true to what is the clinical provisions of good quality care and good quality procedures, which the us runs. I mean, you have to have an eye on what we need to provide to fit into the Australian system, but you don't want to go too far from that. I think otherwise you lose some of the efficacy of that amazing program. Andrew (00:27:48): Yeah. It is an amazing program. I think so far, they've got over six now, over 6,000 pilots back in the air again, after they've lost their medical through substance use disorders, which is fantastic. And I think the rate of that, the success rates in the 90 something percent range, which is just sensational, you would be one of the few addiction specialists in Australia, that's undergoing that sort of training. I should imagine. Mike (00:28:20): I think I'm the only addiction specialist in this area of the world really, who's got the FAA qualification, obviously COVID sort of come along, I was providing support for a couple of pilots just in terms of being their addiction specialists. And that was, you know, who were based over here that had an FAA qualification. And, but yeah, I've also obviously had the pleasure of working quite a bit with CASA, the Australian Civil Aviation association, and that's been really good as well. So, I mean, I think definitely, the more connected you can be and the more you access and more information and knowledge you have in the different systems, the better able you are to bring your knowledge into line with the specific of aviation, which is such an interesting and an important industry, you know? Andrew (00:29:23): Yeah. Your very significant in the, influence of the Australian system you're, as you said, one of the founding members of HIMS with Laurie Shaw, which is just fantastic. And now we're looking at putting a training course together and you'll be a big part of that. And so, your influence continues there. Mike (00:29:46): Yeah. Well, I think, I mean, very kind words from you there, which is very nice, but I think one of the things that really struck me doing the training in the U S was the presence of the FAA and the presence of those people, who were involved in the system at the training programs, you know, that there were training programs running for the addiction psychiatrists, for the, for the monitors. Everyone was in this all together and the people that were running these programs and the people that you could bump into and have a chat with, in the coffee breaks where the FAA, the people who sign people off, the people who signed people on. And it was just a very, you know, supportive network of people. And I think it's super important that people will have the opportunity to meet face to face and to talk and to see that, you know, we're all on the same side here, so I'm really proud and I'm really grateful to be able to be a part of the training program for the peers. Mike (00:30:54): And, and hopefully in time, you know, we can develop more people with interests in aviation, within the addiction psychiatry network. And there are certainly people around Australia, who are developing an interest. I think. So that's where we are., Andrew (00:31:10): Yeah, that's, that's good to hear. So, this training course, incidentally, it's going to be a little bit different. We're going to have it out the back of Byron Bay, Mullumbimby it's called, and the accommodation's pretty cool. It's actually in tents. So I'm really hoping that doesn't rain, but I think it's going to be something pretty special. And I'm really looking forward to that. You were talking about going over to Atlanta and having a look at that Talbot Recovery Center. I've had a look at that too, and it's pretty impressive, Mike (00:31:44): You know, a hundred, pilots and doctors and other professionals all sort of housed together. And a lot of people in recovery involved in the training and the therapy sessions, super impressive. I mean, yeah, Andrew (00:31:59): Yeah, yeah. It's pretty awesome. I went and had a look at it and, doc Bedi, who you spoke about, took me on a tour around it. And then he kindly took me out for dinner that night in Atlanta. And it was really nice. And he was saying that, yeah, their main clientele are doctors, physicians, and attorneys. And, I know actually that sounds like a lead into a joke. You know, a doctor, pilot, and attorney walked into a bar, but, hopefully, hopefully they're not going into a bar they're going into the rehab! But he was saying, in order he said, pilots and physicians have this sort of higher than sort of average, they're rated higher than average on the narcissism scale. And he said, for me that initially that sounded like a bad thing, but he said, "no, it's a good thing", because it helps us to perform certain functions in those, those jobs. Andrew (00:33:04): He said, when, when the pilots come in, often they say, Oh, look, you don't understand, I'm a pilot. You know, and I think what they're saying is there's that uniqueness of the job as far as travel and, the job itself. And so on. He said, sometimes he has to sit them down and say, look, I know you're a pilot but you're just like, everyone else that's had suffered from a substance use disorder. And he said, once they understand that, they can get on with the program and that's fine. But he incidentally said the attorneys are a little bit more complicated because he said, they're always trying to find a loophole in the system. So yeah, he's a super nice guy. Mike (00:33:50): He is a lovely guy. I've met him on a number of occasions and he's helped and supported me with information and advice over the years. But yeah, you are right there. Physicians and pilots are really a mixture of narcissism obsessionality and histrionic personality traits in that the narcissism allows them to sort of do, you know, make decisions, when they need to be firm and clear about things and to back themselves in difficult situations, they need to be obsessional obviously to complete all the training and to be safe in the job and to make sure that they check and recheck and they made mistakes. So their histrionic side is, you know, where they get the - they love to be the center of attention and they love the, they kind of the aberration of their colleagues as often as possible. But so, these things sort of marry together to provide a, hopefully an extremely safe, competent, good communicating and meticulous kind of clinician or aviator, but sometimes those qualities can also be very good at covering up or masking an underlying addiction, unfortunately. Andrew (00:35:16): Yeah. Right. So by the time a pilot gets into an airline, they've been pretty well screened. They've gone through simulator tests. They've had a medical and they've been drug screened. They've had psychometric testing, panel interviews they're really been taken through the ringer in some respects. And I guess you would think that the incidents of substance use disorder in that, through that screening and in that environment of constantly being checked and trained would be pretty rare, but they do appear and that sometimes happens when people stick their hand up or they're identified through a drug test. So if they come through either of those places, well, say for example, if they fail a drug test, it doesn't necessarily mean that they do have a substance use disorder, however, I guess when it gets to that stage, they have to, that they really have a requirement to be assessed. And, and you're the guy that would be one of those initial, the first phone call would be to you, either from the person who stuck their hand up, or I guess from the airline, DAME call you. And so just wondering what, once you receive that phone call, what's the process there? Mike (00:36:46): Once that referral processes come in, we try and see these particular people as quickly as possible. And I, personally I have sort of spaces available to fit them in so getting to see these people as quickly as possible. I think is super important just because it's such a distressing time for them, and also you want to strike while the iron's hot, you know, I really, to get them in front of you for an interview in a discussion as soon as possible. So it's really about making sure there's a referral in place. You're getting them into an appointment. And, in some cases, they will be required to undertake, or there'll be advised to undertake some blood tests or some urine testing etc, prior to see me, but, then often we'll say those are requested at the time of the appointment. Mike (00:37:40): And the sort of thing I would say the interview would take place. Normally I see people for 90 minutes, we do some screening tests with questionnaires just about their mental health and also about their substance use. We like to get collateral information, ideally from a family member, a longstanding GP, or DAME as a psychiatrist in this kind of role or a FAChAM a Fellow of the Australasian Chapter of Addiction Medicine, or a medicine addiction specialist. You're really wanting to make the best assessment as possible as to whether this person has an underlying substance use disorder, first of all, and if so, what is it and how severe is it, but also then to be able to determine those kind of more aviation specific questions, for example, does the person have, problematic use of substances as defined by CASA, you know, regulations Part 67. This question about whether that is safety relevant, I suppose, comes into all of that. So the more information you can get from collateral information, the time you sitting and interviewing the person, and, you know, any biomarkers that you might organize, which might be a blood test that you're into extra hair test, for example, you're then going to be able to give the best, you know, advice that you can, Andrew (00:39:11): Right. ok Oh, thanks for explaining that. I'm sure there's a lot of fear out there because it's a really scary time for pilots, all of a sudden life's been going on reasonably well, there's probably been a few things leading up to it, but they've been sort of loosely keeping it together. And then all of a sudden, they're at the Sydney clinic at Bronte in the waiting room waiting for you. So I think if they hear what you've just said there, I think there's a lot of that fear will be allied, which is just fantastic. Thanks very much for that. Now, no interview at the moment would be complete without mentioning the C word. Andrew (00:39:54): So, COVID the current COVID situation. And an outcome of that is of course, many pilots being out of work. So for some pilots around the world, and they may not be flying for some time. And if we just look at the Australian international scene, pilots on the A 380 have been told that they won't be back until 2023, and sometimes they say might not be back until 2023, at least. So there's reports in the broader community, at least that there's large numbers of the population that have changed their drinking patterns. And in some cases they've been increasing consumption. I'm just wondering if you've noticed any of that? Mike (00:40:38): Yeah. I mean, it's a slightly tricky one and I'm not entirely around, this that there's been a massive increase, obviously in takeaway alcohol sales, but then of course there's been a massive reduction in the alcohol consumption in you know, in public houses and, and clubs, etc, but certainly there, the anecdotal data and the early evidence says there's been an increase in alcohol use and in substance use, I think. And, then pilots are going to be no different to that. I think the also, you know, we talk about stress, we talk about, cues, you know, there can be no great distress then really losing a job or being stood down for a period. I mean, we've all heard the stories of A-380 Captains staking the shelves at Coles and, driving combine harvesters and, that sort of thing. Mike (00:41:38): And, it's a super stressful time. And stress is one of the biggest drivers into increasing alcohol consumption. The uncertainty that that provides, and also just the amount of time and downtime. I mean, operating on these rotating rosters and, there can be quite tight turnarounds often in the modern sort of day. So, there is a huge amount of time on their hands, uncertainty, stress around finances. So it is a really difficult time, certainly in every patient that I've seen, that is a factor of some level, whether it be, and its a factor based in their presentation, but it's also a factor in their treatment, because you know, one of the great benefits of HIMS over the more traditional method of proving one's suitability to return to flying is the speed with which people can get back to their profession. Mike (00:42:41): I mean, under the old system, if you were felt to have a problematic use of substances, you could be two years, on the ground before you were able to convince CASA that you were somebody who was reasonable to recertify, but with the HIMS program, if a person is fully compliant with their HIMS contract and monitoring, they could be back flying within six months. So this is a huge kind of incentive for people to put their hand up early or to, you know, to, accept what the doctors are telling them, et cetera. But you've got a system now where, you know, people are not looking at getting back to flying for quite some time. And so, there is a potential hindrance for them to be as receptive around HIMS. I mean, that said I haven't experienced that. Everyone I've seen has still been wanting to get their medical back as soon as possible and wanting to commit. Andrew (00:43:39): Yeah. Yeah. I'm finding as a narcissistic alcoholic pilot that, there is that uniqueness at the moment. And, I'm finding that there is the initial shock when COVID first happened, there was that almost panic, what's going to happen now. But then when I realized that the world's going to keep turning and I'll wake up in the morning and everything's okay between you and me and, whoever else is listening, I'm quite enjoying a lot of aspects of not going to work, but having said that, I'm pretty productive with what I do, because you know, of the consequences, one of the consequences of, not drinking for a number of years, but there are guys out there, as you say, they've got more time, guys and girls,, they've got more time on their hands. Andrew (00:44:33): There's also that financial stress and so on, but one of the factors that's in there is I haven't been into the simulator for months and months, and I haven't had to commute from the Sunshine Coast down to Sydney, get up at three in the morning for nearly a year. I've been sleeping in my own bed and all that sort of stuff, but the consequence of not having to turn up for a duty or not having to study for simulator and so on, I'm just wondering if there's pilots out there that, and I think this may be the case, that because there's not that accountability, they may be drinking a little bit more without that constraint there. What do you think? Mike (00:45:22): Yeah, well, I mean, everybody's different. I mean, we talked about those different, personalities traits earlier and, you know, and everybody is different though. I mean, there are commonalities and there are differences in our personalities. I think that, for some people can, one man's trash is another's treasure. You know, there's, some people are loving this time, you know, they're becoming the most productive they've ever been. They've been time to, you know, they'd never had to engage in some of their interests. I've seen guys who are sort of, playing the money markets of the world, of seeing the people who, you know, building their homes and their dream homes and, people that have taken up, you know, sort of, poetry and all sorts of things. Mike (00:46:09): But, you know, for other people, it's a really difficult time. And then as you say, the accountability where they were constantly being monitored, constantly being needing to perform. And, the accountability is an extremely important factor in aviation and it's extraordinarily, you know, well demonstrated by the HIMS program, which is to say that, you know, the accountability that you have, you know, you have to do these things. They want to get back to be able to fly again. And if you don't do them, then you won't be able to fly. So we're going to be really, really accountable to your HIMS contract. So when you don't have accountability, just the day-to-day sort of accountability of your job. A lot of people, you know, could certainly see that as a, or that can be a real trigger into increasing some of your unhelpful coping strategies like alcohol. Andrew (00:46:58): Yeah because before COVID, uh, there were pilots being identified through drug testing. And I must say, I almost, I don't know if it'd be the majority, but quite a significant amount were self identifying. Since COVID, we're looking after the ones that were already in the system before the whole shutdown of the industry. There's not really any new people coming in. So I guess one of my concerns is with this, these dynamics of that lack of accountability and people aren't identifying or, being, identified that maybe there's a bit of a condition bubbling away that supposing if all of a sudden, the vaccine works and everything's great in a perfect world. And we get back to work a lot quicker than we anticipate that some of these people might be caught unaware and they might, we might have to go through a bit of a reactive stance because there'll be people coming to work and after they've modified their, or change their lifestyles through this lockdown or the stand down. Mike (00:48:18): Yeah, you're right. I mean, if you do have an emerging substance use disorder within, you know, and especially pilots and doctors we're very good at masking that are very good at organizing our lives so that it doesn't interfere with our job. You know, somebody can be meticulous about how often we drink when we drink, you know, and how many days we allow ourselves to be sober before we returned back to work. And so, you know, but when all of those accountability requirements are relaxed, often there can be an escalation in the substance use. And, it's very hard to put it back once it's got away from you. And I think, you know, you may find that we may find the day that, you know, as people start to get back and they're having to be sort of shoe horned back into that accountable structure of their work, that you find, that there are people who are either putting their hand up or being unable, to bring it back under control, because you know, the core feature of addiction of course, is that lack of ability to control your substance use disorder. Mike (00:49:28): And, so that might be the case. I mean, it certainly, I think, the case, with the sort of, you know, the rapid turning or turn around and the stress of flying, there's no doubt that it is a very, it's a stressful, very rewarding, I understand, but very stressful job. And so that in itself creates you know, some of the, this, the sort of fertile ground for these addiction issues to sort of develop and present. But, yeah, we may we'll find is that stress is reimplemented, that people will struggle. You know, Andrew (00:50:07): Now the first time we met, I think, was at a HIMS conference, but I don't know if we had a conversation there, but the first time I can recall meeting is when you put up the idea of establishing the Birds for Feather group in Australia. So Birds of a Feather it's an international support group modelled on that AA template, but it's really Alcoholics Anonymous for flight crew. And so you approached me, I think it was in 2019, and we, you offered some space in the Sydney Clinic at Bronte, and handful of us got together, and that's just been such a fantastic initiative on your part. And so it started off, as I say, with just a small handful, with a handful and it's growing in numbers, and actually the transition to Zoom due to the whole social distancing thing has actually worked in its favor. And so we've developed this Australian flavor now, which is really cool. it's just, just morphed into something. And it's a really close group of people, and there's a whole lot of honesty there, vulnerability, and we're just really telling it how it is and and sharing our experiences. And that development of connection I'm finding is, is one of the significant or one of the most important elements of the group. So do you see that element of connection is something that's vital in the recovery process? Mike (00:51:47): Oh, it's, I think it's fundamental, you know, and there are many people who describe the, you know, I've heard this a lot 'the antidote of addiction is connection', you know, and and I certainly got the motivation to start or to try and start a Birds of Feather group here. My understanding of a Doctors in Recovery group, which runs in Sydney and has been running for a number of years, a colleague of mine, who's an addiction specialist, who's in recovery himself has been running that for many years, Stephen Jerd, Professor Jerd, and just a really, really important place for doctors to be able to go and be honest and find support because, you know, it's been hard turning up at your local AA, if you're a doctor and, seeing some of your patients there, they're all being worried that your patients would like to see you there. Mike (00:52:44): And, also some of the digressions that are made in addiction can be quite confronting to the average person and, things to talk about that, be honest within your addiction. So that was a really important group there. And I was - when I went to the U S for the HIMS training and HIMS groups, and there were Birds of a Feather groups running regularly, and they were really impressive. I spoke to a number of people that just found overwhelming support for those, and being such a powerful part of the pilots experience. And I found that, you know, for many people, it was, it would being part of that group that really brought the awareness and the insight into their condition for the fall, or even, you know, even after they'd been told they had addiction, they lost their license, they were in HIMS contract, or what have you. Mike (00:53:38): They were still pushing back against that and trying to find ways that, maybe this didn't actually, refer to them, or it didn't was naturally, they'd been some mistake somewhere along the line, but, you know, the involvement of other partners and recovery with positive stories and, good relationships, it was really such an important thing. So, you know, I was incredibly indebted to yourself. We, we tried to run a group for a short period for about a year and a half from the Sydney Clinic. We had a core group of people, which it ran pretty well, , for a period of time, but it just didn't have the sustainability of being run properly, by someone who had a long-term recovery, like yourself. And so, you know, meeting you and hearing your enthusiasm for that, and being able to take up that which was really important. And then, yeah, I mean, I'm really grateful to yourself, Andrew for taking on that idea, because I think it's something that is so important within the community, as we go forward with this new concept. Andrew (00:54:48): Yeah. Thanks Mike. I think it's from what I - you know, 20 years ago when I first stopped, well, when I last stopped drinking, I gave it a few goes, but I went to AA a few times. However, I had that fear you were talking about, you know, your friend who's, who's organized the support group for doctors, and I had this fear that I'd get found out that I was going to AA and for want of a better term in a generic AA group. So I stopped going because I thought the company would find out that I didn't drink and I'd get the sack [fired]. That's the fear. So I spent years and years of this isolation. And then when I heard about Birds of a Feather, I was just blown away. I thought, I wish I heard about this years and years ago. So it's just for me, it's something that I really enjoy and the whole Zoom thing. Now there's people from all over the world, we can Zoom in to, you know, somewhere, a meeting in Atlanta or, over in the UK or whatever, it's really actually been quite a benefit. Mike (00:56:06): Yeah, definitely. I think that's, I mean, out of every cloud has a silver lining, and I think that's one of the things that people have actually realized, especially in this, where you've got, you know, niche groups like ours, like yours, you know, it's been a really important and, there, there's nothing, in a way that you can replace face to face, but the sorts of groups, it's just such a great development. So yeah, it's been good to hear that it is flourishing. Andrew (00:56:38): Yeah, it is. And having said that, I'm really looking forward to having a face-to-face meeting. And probably when we do that training course in the, in the Bush, we'll probably end up organizing a Birds of a Feather group around the fire or something. So I think that's, that's going to be pretty special Your field that is psychiatry and addiction is always looking for better ways of doing things. I assume there's still plenty of research into the science of addiction going on. And of course that will continue forever. We'll never have all the answers and evidence-based strategies, I guess, constantly being refined. But I remember hearing a story, about back to Bill Wilson, the cofounder of Alcoholics Anonymous and the other founder, Dr. Bob, and they were conducting experiments back then. And they had one therapy, which was sauerkraut mixed with honey and the sauerkraut gave all the vitamins and the honey made it palatable. Andrew (00:57:54): And, occasionally one of the people that they were giving it to, it would drop dead. And probably from other reasons than that they drank this elixir. And as the story goes, Bob turned to Bill and said, ah, we better not try that again. So they weren't exactly ticking all the boxes of experimental design. And I do like the story, I don't know if it's a hundred percent true, but you know, this was a hundred years ago, but on the subject of research, have there been any recent developments in the area of addiction that have caught your attention in recent times? Mike (00:58:30): You know, the area of addiction research is moving pretty fast. I mean, the, the area which has fascinated me in recent times has been the development of all the interest is developed in psychedelics and, the role of psychedelics potentially in the future of psychiatry and the future of addiction medicine. I mean, I think there's probably a lot more hype than perhaps there is actual, hard findings at the moment. Yeah, the development of psychedelics I think is absolutely fascinating. I mean, we already know that they have a role in the treatment of PTSD and trauma, which, you know, we've already mentioned is a huge factor in the development of addiction, but certainly there is interest in using them in detoxing patients, but also developing a sense of connection and hope and, spirituality, I suppose, in a way that that is a cornerstone of many people's recovery from addiction, you know, that it's a sense that it's actually going to turn out alright in the end. And that, I can keep going and tomorrow might be a day, that is worth living for sort of thing, and so, if there are many people find spirituality through AA and other organizations and through their connections that they find, but many people, they, for whatever reason, don't make that, that leap into that sort of area. And so, I think that's is definitely going to be a very interesting area development over the next sort of 10 to 15 years. Yeah, Andrew (01:00:18): Yeah. Right now that is interesting talking about spirituality and so on and, I guess the emerging mindfulness therapies as well as meditation and so on is that's really important, you're talking about psychedelics. I often wonder when I hear, you know, podcasts with, you know, certain people talking about it and they're not really experts. And so I'm glad I've heard that from you. That's great because there's that a bit of a joke in support group circles that,, if they invented a pill that cured addiction, what would happen if I took two? So I just wonder if, some people just, and myself included enjoy the whole journey of sobriety with, I guess, that, that toughing it, it out and doing it without, I guess, that sort of support. But as you say, everyone's different and some people, that may be the only what they considered the only answer available for them. Mike (01:01:25): On that, note that's a very funny, cartoon. I think it's a play on the Matrix, there's the blue pill and the red pill. And then before you can say anything more, the person's taken both of them, you know, both of those, no point to choosing between the two. So yeah, Andrew (01:01:51): Yeah. If someone's listening to this and they're questioning if they have a problem with alcohol and other drugs and that they generally like to know, if they really do have a problem, what advice would you give them? Mike (01:02:04): One of the things, I mean, obviously within the aviation circles, be, a good thing to do would be to have a look at the website of HIMS, you know, and to explore the Australian website, the American HIMS website, and just, you know, start to read some of the stories and start to read some of the the information there, watch some of their videos, maybe, there's going to be a good idea, you know, with the availability, these podcasts, maybe to have a little listen. I mean, there's some really fascinating and useful resources there. The second thing I think is to talk to somebody, we hope, and certainly, in the future, and certainly after our HIMS training, program, that there will be more people, more visible people around who are going to be available to talk confidentially about, you know, the options available to people. Mike (01:03:03): Yeah, that could be a hypothetical conversation. It can be anonymous conversations, or reaching out to a medical professional, talking to your doctor, your GP about, about the options or your DAME but, you know, I think the most important message that we want to convey and we've always wanted to convey since the very start of this journey with HIMS is that, just talking to somebody about your, what may or may not be a problem with addiction is not the end of your career. You know, it may be actually the start of the best part of your life, and, so it's okay to have conversations. It's okay to talk. And, there is information out there for you, which hopefully will be reassuring, but you know, that there is a pathway for you that it's not just all all or nothing, you know? Andrew (01:03:58): Yeah, no, you're right there. Just say it could be the beginning of the best part of your life. And speaking of that, one of the best parts of your life, you've got any more surfing adventures planned for the time when we can travel to the edges of the earth again? Mike (01:04:12): Well, interestingly, I was supposed to go down to the, the dark recesses of Victoria, in about a month's time to the artificial wave pool down there. But I decided not to book it in the end, based on the unpredictability of the the border closures. So, that was one thing but yeah, no, I'm, I'm always - I'd love to go back to Papua New Guinea actually. I mean, it was fantastic place,. Andrew (01:04:47): So that's a little different to the wave pool in Victoria, isn't it? Andrew (01:04:54): Yeah. That's awesome. Yeah. Thanks very much for all these words of wisdom today. When your name's mentioned in the Bird's meetings the pilots that have been under your care often express their gratitude, how you've contributed to making their life a better one. And I'm convinced that it's not just because you're skilled at what you do and that you are, but it's because you have a real concern for these guys as individuals. And I think one of the things that's really important is that you're really upfront and honest with these people. And, you know, if it wasn't for you, we wouldn't have formed these important connections and friendships made in that Birds of a Feather group. And so, yeah, you're a lifesaver really, and thanks also for all the significant contributions in the formation of HIMS in Australia. So I hope we'll catch up face to face soon. Mike (01:05:53): Yeah. And thanks to you, Andrew, for your support and help, with the HIMS and, yeah. And just a personal friend and being able to to assist with some of the guys that have come through as they are monitoring and what have you, because yeah, there's nothing better than seeing people getting their jobs back, getting their lives back. And, unfortunately in addiction, you know, that can be difficult for the average Joe, you know, it's a rarity rather than a regular thing. And, I think so to have a system like this in place where there is so much hope I think it's fantastic for me as an individual than a professional, and it's also great for those people who have problems. So yeah, thanks a lot for everything you've done as well. Andrew (01:06:46): Ah, thanks Mike. Thanks for your time. It's been fantastic. It's been really good to catch up. Well, I hope you enjoyed hearing Dr. Mike Atherton's story. He selflessness in supporting those with substance use disorders really shines through if you'd like to contact Mike or anyone from AusHIMS, check out the website. Aushims.org.au, And for HIMS information in the U S, their website is HIMSprogram.com and in New Zealand, HIMS.org. N Z. And if you have any feedback, I would love to hear that from you. And my email is andrew@flyingstraight.com.au. I look forward to sharing another story with you soon.

Roger (00:01): In the earliest days, living in the UK, I remember reading a newspaper, the headlines about crew member, detained by police, preflight failing a breath test. And I remember reading those things 30 years ago and thinking well, silly him. That wouldn't happen to me and generally being quite unconcerned about it. But the fact was, I'd still read the same sort of headlines periodically. And by the mid two thousands, they would have a different effect on me. I would read those headlines and go, wow, that could be me. That could be me one day. ,addiction is giving up everything for one thing and recovery is giving up one thing for everything because The end point of addiction is people lose a lot. They lose lives and careers and, and, and marriages and relationships and everything. It is just total annihilation for this one thing, New Speaker (00:57): You all listening to flying straight and aviators guide to navigating through a life of sobriety people in the flying industry and other walks of life will share their experiences of living a life free of alcohol and other drugs. You will also hear from experts in the world of addiction and self-improvement join Andrew O'Meally, airline, pilot, and non-practicing alcoholic. As he takes you on a journey discovering how a sober life can lead to a deeper level of happiness. Andrew (01:32): Well, welcome to this third episode of flying straight piloting a sober life. My name is Andrew O'Meally, airline pilot alcoholic, and your host. I'm talking to you from the sunshine coast in Southeast Queensland Australia. It's beautiful here at the moment, balmy days and rain in the afternoons. It's a great combo of fantastic beach weather and the rain keeping that Bush land alive. New Speaker (02:00): Anyway, today's conversation is with a super interesting guy, Captain Roger Healey Roger's career path is an enviable one. Soon after school, he joined the Royal Australian air force, flying a diverse range of aircraft, including P three Orions, which is a four engine Anti submarine aircraft, as well as rotary wings. He left the military after 16 years and started flying for a large airline being based in Hong Kong, as well as in the United Kingdom. He currently operates out of Asia flying freight a heavy jet. How good is that? Roger shares with us, his story of the impact alcohol had on his life. It was a slow transition from social drinker fitting in with the other crew members to that realization that something just wasn't quite right and was getting worse. He shares insights on the life as an international airline pilot and expectorate, a father and a recovering alcoholic. And he tells us how sobriety has given him everything alcohol had promised. New Speaker (03:09): Oh yeah. Thanks for doing this mate. This is excellent. Roger (03:12): Mate, this is yeah. Pleasure. Andrew (03:14): Yeah. So your down inthe central coast at the moment, is that right? Roger (03:20): Newcastle. Yeah. So Newcastle. So just South of Newcastle I'm in Charlestown Andrew (03:26): Charlestown. Okay. And just to clarify that's Newcastle Australia. Yeah. Roger (03:33): Newcastle Australia. Yeah. Certainly is. Andrew (03:35): And, that's a pretty rare event for you, isn't it? That being back in Australia, Roger (03:41): Being home hasn't happened, for nearly 12 months, you know, the 11 months, when I was last back, just the way the COVID thing's been rolling and the various, quarantine restrictions, both in Asia and back here. Andrew (03:57): Yeah. It must be good to be home. Roger (04:00): It is, it is. , although as generally a commuter for the last 10 or more years, my need to keep coming back is a bit different from some other folks. My kids are now pretty much grown up they're 20, 24 and 28. So, they're, to a greater extent self-sufficient and they're also geographically dispersed so that if I come back to Newcastle, they're not all here. Andrew (04:26): So, so did your kids spend any time in Hong Kong? We, you were always up there on your own? Roger (04:33): No. So I was married and we split back in 2002, the time that happened, we were all living in the UK. I Was UK based for a while. Andrew (04:47): You spent, a lot of time in Asia. As an expat. Roger (04:53): So, I've been with the company for 23 years. And so, for the period that I was based, which was the first 13 years or so, , my visits, there were a couple of times a month and you'd, just be in a hotel there when you were there,, for a couple of days and then, and then flying out again, back and forth, usually through the middle East, back to all ports in Europe, since I've been based there though, I've got my own little, own little apartment I rent up there and we jet about all over the place, some regional, some long haul. Andrew (05:30): Yeah, so you're, you're flying the 744freighter at the moment Roger (05:36): The mighty freighter, the mighty 74. Yeah. Andrew (05:38): That'd be a pretty cool job at the moment. And particularly with, all the freight booming and so on. Roger (05:46): Yeah. it's the, it's the part of the industry, I think, with the brightest prospects at the moment. Andrew (05:54): All right. Great. S0, I remember you saying once this flying rubber dog shit out of Hong Kong, it's not such a bad gig after all Roger (06:02): that's right, is that famous line out of, out of that movie, isn't it, but top gun, top gun it was, seen as a threat to those guys findflying the pointy jets. Andrew (06:16): you mentioned the, pointy.....? Roger (06:18): those pointy jets. Yeah. The, top gun guys. Andrew (06:23): Yeah, What were you flying?. Roger (06:26): Well, I wasn't, no, I was, in the air force for 16 years, but, most of it was, multi-engine on the P-3 doing maritime patrol stuff and a bit of rotary wing for years on helicopters. That was all good fun, but a bit of a young man's game really, but all good fun. Andrew (06:42): How long were you in there for? Roger (06:44): 16 years? Yeah. 16 years. 82 to 98. Andrew (06:50): Yeah. Right. Yeah. I've got to ask with the air force. So it was the Royal Australian Air Force Roger (06:58): Indeed. It was. Yeah. Andrew (07:00): How would you say the drinking culture was there? Roger (07:04): Ah, look, it's a long time ago now becaus, we're talking nearly 40 years ago that I joined and, I think the culture, and society, generally was very different back then. And the air force, was not particularly different. It was different that's for sure things were just more, more permissive. There was that sort of work, hard, play hard sort of culture. There was always the idea of flight safety coming first and, mixing the drinking with the was always very heavily promoted. But I think there were a lot of times where people would, as an example,Friday afternoons, it'd be off to the mess for a bit of socialization after, after a working week. And yeah, some people would just go for a couple of drinks and head off home and other people would stay for a bit longer. I was probably one of the ones that stayed a bit longer and, I was the one who came home late for dinner on a Friday night, was not very popular. And, there are a lot of those sorts of things. And as I say, these are the things that happened, 40 odd years ago. Andrew (08:17): Yeah. Right. So, so did you go straight from the RAAF into an airline? Roger (08:23): I did. I did so, straight from school to the air force and straight from the air force to an airline. So I've basically had two jobs, two interviews and, give or take, you know? Andrew (08:36): Yeah. And then you got the, the first airline gig and on your way, so yeah, so that was.... Sorry-go ahead. Roger (08:45): I was going to say, and that was, a different lifestyle. I think that lifestyle, a lifestyle of, constant adjustments and constant change, and you're transitioning back into being with the family or getting ready to transition away from being with the family and going on another trip, you just got that couple of days in the middle, which, somewhere like normal and you're off again. Yeah, yeah. it makes us demands on all the family. Andrew (09:13): I was going to say it's hard. It's hard for everyone, isn't it not?. Roger (09:17): What, what I've style does afford is you're way away from home, your away from responsibilities of family life. Your only responsibility is to get up every couple of days and front up in a reasonable state to fly an airplane. And you can have a couple of days here and a couple of days there and plenty of time to go out, out on the town, in a new destination. And, as I say, without the constraints, it's very easy to fall into the habit of binging. I think you call it, Andrew (09:48): Did you feel like you were pretty much the same as everyone else? Roger (09:52): Yeah, absolutely yeah, that was certainly the case at school. That's the way it seemed to me, that's the way everybody drank at school and at university and, early years in the air force or whatever, probably the circle of people that I knew that drank, like I wanted to, gradually shrank over the years, but if I could find another one or two that wanted to, go out for a bit of a night on the town, then that was normal. That was, that was okay. It didn't matter if most other people weren't doing that, but if there was one or two of us that was fine. Andrew (10:22): You were just always searching for those handful of normal people. Roger (10:26): Hand full of normal people, thats right, to reassure yourself, I think, despite the fact that daily intake as recommended by the medical authorities, whatever was pitifully small, if there are other people drinking, like I did, and that was normal and that was okay. And that would justify it. And I didn't have to explain myself to anybody else. Yeah, Andrew (10:50): Yeah. Yeah. Because, I mean, as you say, when we're drinking, we look at those what the medical advice is, and we think, Oh, ya pussies! Who does that? Roger (11:04): I didn't know anybody who drank like that. I didn't know people that didn't drink. I didn't think there were people who did drink. I couldn't imagine, it was beyond my experience. I just didn't know them. I didn't think they existed. Andrew (11:21): So you're, you're in, an ex-pat lifestyle and that's, I generally find an ex-pat lifestyles pretty full on, I was in New Guinea and it seemed to be a lot of drinking going on that people bonded through alcohol, unless you were a missionary. So I guess you were part of that ex-pat alcohol-bonding scene? Roger (11:45): Absolutely. Yeah, it's a part of bonding. It's all that shared experience. There are a lot of reasons why people do that. They feel, I guess when you're, an ex-pat in another country, you're, maybe accepted rather than welcomed among the locals. You, you feel you're a little bit on the outside that there's a common bond between all the ex-pats with the vagaries, the difficulties of living in these different, different countries, whatever they might be. Yeah. And there's a lot of socializing, a lot of socializing goes on with those similar sorts of people and most socializing involves getting together and having a drink. Again, I found myself amongst people of a like mind what, I will say, one thing that's a little bit different though, is in, certainly being an ex-pat in some of the heavily populated Asian countries. They're frequently served by extraordinarily good public transport systems and very few people will drive. So, as a result of which you can get most places with a cab or a bus or a train, lots of people in lots of these places don't even own a car. Andrew (13:01): So, you're in Asia and you don't even need a car or a taxi. You just hop on, or you could catch a taxi, but you, you know, the train system is fantastic and so on. And then, you know, you don't have that accountability if your family's not there a lot of the time. And yeah. So then you are in that ex-pat environment, and then you go traveling to these fantastic places in the world. So there's plenty of opportunities to drink when you're away. And in fact, I remember you once saying that if you didn't have an excuse on hand, you'd synthesize one, uh, what, what were some of those excuses to have a drink? Roger (13:47): Oh, excuses to have a drink? I've got to... You honestly didn't need one, you know, it's Wednesday, it's Tuesday, it's, whatever it is, there was never really a reason. It was,when you're down route, you'd land, you'd go to the hotel, you'd check in, you'd get your room key. And, somebody, sometimes it was me, but somebody would say "downstairs in 15 minutes then?", Or, or 10?, Or, you know, and somebody would say, Oh, what's wrong with five?, And it was a bit of a joke. It was a bit of banter, but it was just absolutely common. And, you know, that was the first thing you did. Nobody was going to the gym. Nobody was going for a run. Nobody was going to the pool, as long as the bar was open. That's where you go or just going for a couple and then we'll have dinner. Right. Except it didn't always work that way. You're running into another crew and there's this shout of four or five guys and everyone's drinking pints. Cause they're all Brits. And, before, you know it, never mind about dinner again, excuses, I don't really remember. Andrew (14:52): Maybe it's saying something like, you know, the time zone change. Roger (14:56): Oh, well, yeah. Okay. Well, so yeah, yes. I get what you mean. Yeah. Yeah. Those excuses or rationalizations, you know, it's always five o'clock in the afternoon somewhere, you could, you could always make it seem normal. You, arrive at Hong Kong at five in the morning or whatever, and like, everything is closed, but, those of us in the know, would know that you can just nip out the front door and go down there and around the corner a bit. And there was a petrol station that had a few beers in the fridge, and you could always grab them at any hour of the day or night, and that was justifiable, because I've been working all night and this is my knockoff, so this is the end of my day. So, and I deserve it because I've been working hard, you know, I deserve my drink and it'll help me sleep. And, there'll be much better rested for my next duty. I mean, which is just nonsense. You know, the quality of sleep was never objectively assessed, but it was almost certainly of a inferior quality. Andrew (16:04): Yeah. I've heard studies about, you don't go through that REM cycle or those cycles normally around eight and you go through like one when you drink it. And that's why you sleep really heavily, but you're wake up feeling terrible because you haven't gone through this natural sleep cycle. Yeah. Yeah. Roger (16:25): If you do that for a couple of days , eastbound in the middle East and then do that in Hong Kong, and then you do it the same in the middle East, on the way back, you get back to the UK after eight or 10 days, you are just destroyed, partly because of a bit of off back of the body clock flying. But yeah, mainly because you used your rest time, so unwisely in the meantime, so you come back home, you you're tired, you're grumpy, you're not happy. And,again, additional pressure on the family. Andrew (16:58): Yeah. So you, you probably did some things that weren't exactly proud of while you're away. And, so did you wake up at times and think that's it, I've had enough, I'm never going to drink again? Roger (17:16): Yeah. I don't know that I got to that stage back, back then, that stage certainly came a bit later though,, so it does eventually come where, I'm thinking that's, that's probably much later, probably the last year or two before I quit. So, 2009, 2008, and I think one of the things that, that brought that on, in the earliest days, living in the UK, I remember reading a newspaper, the headlines about crew member, detained by police, preflight, failing a breath test.Manchester, or wherever Glasgow. And they were frequently North American crews who'd been there on an overnight there. They're off their time zone, whatever, and they got an early morning start, and they're still a little bit worse for weather from the night before. Roger (18:05): And I remember reading those things 30 years ago and thinking, well, silly him, that wouldn't happen to me and generally being quite unconcerned about it. But the fact was, you know, I'd still read the same sort of headlines periodically. And by the mid two thousands, they would have a different effect on me. I would read those headlines and go, wow, that could be me. That could be me one day. something had changed. You know, whether, I didn't recognize that my behavior changed my attitudes to alcohol or, or my respect for the, separation between my drinking and my flying had changed. And yet the same newspaper headline would have a different effect on me. So I think there was an awareness that, I was getting away with it in later years that, I just hadn't been found out yet.. Roger (18:52): Yeah. And then you realize you're potentially on borrowed time and you realize what the potential ramifications are. And so around that time, I guess I was thinking that, yeah, I probably should wind it back a bit. And then there's that period of sort of denial where I should wind it back a bit, but I can do that any time, I can. I'm still fully in charge. I can do that tomorrow. I'm not going to do it tonight because I'm just going to have one tonight, but, I, I can start that tomorrow. So there's always , that idea that you've still got control, and you're simply choosing not to change your behavior just yet, even though there's an inkling that maybe you should, things sort of progress on from there looking in 2009, I had some time off work for some, really a succession of relatively minor medical things. Roger (19:41): And I've sort of probably strung them out to do them sequentially rather than in parallel, because it sort of suited my,, unwillingness to go back to work, but the problem was without the discipline having to turn up for work, every few days without that constraint, now we talked about the constraints before, but, with, with that further, that, that final constraint removed, the drinking was essentially without limits and without, yeah, it was just a drink until you passed out, or until you ran out, of booze, you usually took dam fine care to make sure that you didn't run out. So, that was, there was almost a daily occurrence and that was not great because there was a period then where you'd wake up and you say, right, I'm not going to do that tonight, definitely not. And then come, you know, four or five in the afternoon, you say, well, I'll just have one and one doesn't hurt. And then, one didn't hurt, so I'll have two, and, then, you're off to the races again, which is the, the most common, if you like distinguishing feature about people with a substance use disorder, it's just that absence of control. And the fact that once you've had that first one that all reason, all, willpower, if you like everything else out, the window just becomes the most important thing. And yet the other thing is you spend your day, when you spend your morning hung over from the night before you spend a portion of your afternoon, wondering whether it's okay to start drinking now, or whether you've got to wait a little bit longer to be respectable. Roger (21:15): And, the other bit, and the other bits drinking, and it's just that, entire 24 hour cycle. And if you're not going to work and doing other responsible things, and you're no longer married and families on the other side of the world and all the rest of, it's just a nightmare. And it's a recurring nightmare. It's a daily- it's a Groundhog day type existence. Yeah. And, that's where I found myself. And, during the period that I was off work with the various medical things and they sold the old airplanes- the classic 747's. And when I come back, the first thing I was going to have to do was a conversion on the 400. And, as the time for that, came closer and closer, I think I would say, right, well, I've really got to not drink tomorrow and start getting my head in the books and I'm getting ready for this conversion course. Roger (22:11): And,even with that intention, that sincere intention, that absolute, absolute commitment to doing that, it would not happen day after day after day. And, eventually I very much realized and acknowledged and, accepted, I guess, that I was no longer in control of this situation. I was just, going along for the ride. Yeah. That's about when I stuck up my hand and, requested some help from work and, they were only too happy to help. And I think I needed that. I wasn't going to fix it all on my own, that didn't look like happening. So I think that's the differentiating feature for me is when, if you've been in that state of denial for a while, and then there's an acknowledgement that, Hey, there is a problem and I should do something about it and I intend to do something about it. And you decide that you are going to do something about it and you just find yourself unable. Yeah. That's probably the point where, it's beyond your control and you need some help. Yeah. Andrew (23:16): Yeah. So when, when you stuck your hand up, can you tell us the,, what, what were you thinking you you'd obviously got right to the end of the road there and why was that day different to the day before? Roger (23:31): Yeah. Good, good reason. I think I'd used every, I had this pack of cards and I'd used all the jokers. There was nothing left. I couldn't couldn't string it out any longer. And, I was out of excuses too, to not be coming back to work. And it was the global financial crisis. And I basically exhausted all my sick leave and, just about running on, running on my accumulated savings and, it was a mess and it couldn't go on any longer. So I had to get back to work, but there was a realization that I couldn't go back in that, in that current state, it just wouldn't work. So I was essentially just out of options, really. And it was fear really, it was fear of being found out fear of being caught, fear of being, fear of events becoming beyond my control, like I was going to get found out on a random test and, the consequences were really different. The only way I could retain some sort of control of the situation and navigate its course was to, stick my hand up and, request some help. So yeah, that, thats because of the way the policies were in the company at the time, that could seem like the best option for me. And, and it really was. Yeah. Andrew (24:52): Did you feel safe as far as, you knew the company would support you or you weren't sure. Had you heard other people go through this? Roger (25:00): I thought they would. I didn't know anybody else who'd done it. Although there were people who had, yeah, I didn't necessarily know who these other people were. We've got a much better network of things these days. And there are things like, your wonderful podcast, Andrew,, where we're helping to spread the word and just let people know that they're not alone. So at the time I felt quite alone, I did feel unsure. I didn't really know what it would entail. I was a bit wary because I thought it might've had something to do with never drinking. Again, I wasn't really interested in doing that. I thought it might have something to do with one of those rehab places. And I figured if you went to one of these rehab places, they teach you to drink like a gentleman and you could just be like a normal person after that. I thought that sounded good. Andrew (25:49): Did they say to you, well, two in order to get back flying again, you should be going into an inpatient rehab or, how did that all eventuate? Roger (26:01): Yeah, so that, that was, a relatively brief phone call. I spoke to one of the company doctors and said, to the guy who had been running with most of my case and listening patiently to all my various excuses over the previous six months or so. And I spoke to him and I said, I think what really might be the, the core of the problem here is my abuse of alcohol. And he said, he said, great. We know what to do about that. It will involve you a 100% abstinence from here on, and it will involve, inpatient treatment, I'll call you back. And,they call back a couple of hours later and said, right. You're. So I was in Newcastle. I was back in Australia at the time I was in Newcastle. They said report to a facility down in Sydney, 10:00 AM tomorrow morning. Roger (26:47): Well, you can give them a quick call this afternoon. And basically they did an assessment over the phone and, they were quite satisfied that I was just the person they're looking for. Yeah. It wasn't, a particularly thorough assessment, but, there was essentially no more denial. It was, it was just quite an honest accepting. It helped me, I'm out of control. I, dont know, what's going on here and I need help. And, they were very, very happy to see me. Yeah. And it's 28 days there, which is very different experience, a bit isolating at first, you don't have all the freedoms. In fact, I remember going down there to check in and you bring a little bag of clothes for a couple of weeks toothbrush and, and whatever. And, you walk in and they tell you to put your bag down on the bed and they go through your bag. They search it very thoroughly looking for any contraband. You have anybody trying to bring drugs or booze into the place. Uh, you weren't allowed to have your mobile phone while you're there. There was a payphone or something I think you'd use. So to me, that first day felt like what I imagined going to prison would be like, yeah. Andrew (28:01): So that would have been really scary. Roger (28:04): Yeah. I did not think this is the beginning. I thought this is the end, and that's all I could see. It was just the door closing behind me, the physical door, entering this place, but that was, the door on my past life. It was, but I had no idea what, lay ahead, not for 28 days. And certainly not for the 10 years that followed, I had no idea, a lot of uncertainty, a lot of fear and anxiety. And II wasn't immediately filled with the feeling that I had made the right decision. Then that came kind of a little bit later. Yeah. Andrew (28:44): Did you feel that you belong there or did you look around and in day one anyway, the first couple of days and think, Hey, I'm not like these other people in here, or did you think, man I'm in the right place! Roger (29:00): No, absolutely. And some of these feelings were not just for the 28 days I was there, but probably for the first year or so in recovery, I would look at everybody else and I would go, Oh, well, I'm not as bad as him or her, or I'm a little bit worse than him or her in, in, some regard with regard to some aspect of my life or my drinking or whatever. Yeah. I saw a lot of the differences between my situation and those of others. Whereas one of the first things you told in recovery, when you're going along to a 12 step meetings and things is look for the similarities, not the differences. And yet I was, I was often met with the differences. They were the more apparent ones to me. And while I could see the similarities, I think I still, for a long time and quite unproductively placed myself in a different sort of category from others. Yeah, yeah. As I say, it wasn't something intentional. It wasn't something I sought to do. It's just the way my mind was working in my assessment of where, things were and where everybody else was. But those sorts of feelings are not particularly helpful. Andrew (30:15): No, I bet. I think they're also, particularly common too. A lot of people go in and they think, and I'm not like this, that, or this person and so on. And I think that's, yeah, that's maybe more the the norm. Roger (30:32): I think it's very much the norm. I mean, I did find some, there. There were people there that there were, there were Housewives there at the rehab. There were, minor league, rugby league people. There were people referred there by the drug court or whatever who were, mandated to be there rather than, willing participants there were a couple of doctors and they were smart people. They were, they were interesting to talk to, but they're in just as profound as a pickle as I was. And, I probably, to some extent, similarly in denial or, recategorize them to categorize themselves as different. So we hit things off a bit there. New Speaker (31:18): Back in Newcastle. I met some people who had a very simple, very black and white view of things. It was just sit down, shut up, listen, do this. Don't do that. Yeah. Call me every morning. Andrew (31:36): Yeah, if you, if you keep it down to the fundamentals it's..... Roger (31:38): Yeah. Just boil it down to the fundamentals and these people... I think there's a temptation for it for a lot of us toI overthink and to complicate what's a pretty simple recipe for recovery. Andrew (31:53): Great. So how long did it take you ffrom the time you got out of the 28 day program until you were back in the, in the flight deck, again? Roger (32:02): Subject to your engagement with the program and satisfactory series of no notice,, testing and progress with the various, suggested steps for recovery, you can be back online in, probably a minimum of about four months, really three or four months after after discharge from the inpatient treatment facility. It's possible if you apply yourself to, as I say, doing the recommended things and just engage with the, with the program. Andrew (32:38): So part of that was support groups. You mentioned AA, so you got stuck into AA. Roger (32:46): Yeah. I got stuck in a little bit slowly yeah, I got stuck into it eventually. Yeah. Yep. Good, good. Andrew (32:54): And now you're, you're also using, or I should say your zooming in, or you, or before COVID you are physically going to Birds of a Feather support group, or did that, did that come a fair way after AA? Roger (33:11): Yeah, so there wasn't a Birds group in Hong Kong when I started, we probably set that up two or three years later, something like that. There was a great one up in Anchorage Alaska and, the freighter operation hubs through Anchorage all the time. So I've met, a bunch of really good guys up there on a Wednesday afternoon. And, were guys from US-based freight carriers as well. And they'd be down in Hong Kong on occasions. We catch up and see each other at meetings and they knew people. And I think that's the beauty of it. When you get to a point where there's that shared experience one thing, but that sense of fraternity and just knowing people and networking and "do you know, Andrew?" "Yeah. I know Andrew is a great guy",, and all that sort of stuff. And you just feel, you're part of something. Um, yeah. Andrew (34:06): i'm glad they say that about me when, Roger (34:11): When you meet them, for example, not necessarily..... Andrew (34:16): -just mucking around, but yeah, Roger (34:18): No, I know. So I think that, initially you can feel like your very much separate from the rest of the pilot community cause you're a little bit different. You're the guy who doesn't drink when they go out now, but you also become a part of something else that you weren't a part of before. And so there's part of this special group of people who've walked the same path and share their experiences and tell you that what you're feeling is normal and, there's actually nothing wrong with you and, and all those sorts of help to dispel all those doubts and fears. And, and we have a laugh and we reminisce about the nonsense way we used to carry on and we don't glorify it or whatever, but we just remind ourselves that, probably wasn't real helpful. And it really wouldn't be very helpful now, talk about the things that we enjoy doing now and why we like, yeah, you develop a love for the new way of life. That's, I think, the turning point is when you actually enjoy doing what you're doing, that's the thing that keeps you there, you know? Andrew (35:27): Yeah, yeah. I agree. Yeah, it is. That's from, sort of begrudgingly to thinking, wow, now this is what I've been looking for. And we get together and have a laugh. And s, I can't let this podcast go without just mentioning that the first time I met you, Rog, was when I heard you spoke at an Australian HIMS convention a couple of years ago. And I liked the way that you introduced yourself, you know what I'm talking about? Roger (36:00): Oh yeah, I do. So, when you're at an AA meeting, it's very much a first name basis. It's alcoholics anonymous. We don't necessarily reveal our whole identity to people, but we're very friendly on a first name basis. So invariably, you commence your period of sharing your little story with, "hi, my name is Roger and I'm an alcoholic". So of course that's why I kicked off speaking to the assembled multitude at the HAAG conference, most there are non alcoholics. And, , as I just said that, hi, I'm Roger, I'm an alcoholic. And I said, it's my nightmare scenario of getting on the PA on the airplane one day and saying that to all the passengers, - got to remember to keep those two separate two circumstances quite separate! Andrew (36:48): That's fantastic. I love that. so that was at the HIMS conference a couple of years ago. And you've been involved in the Australian HIMS side of things in various capacities. And one of the things that you are a part of is the video on it, on the Australian HIMS website. And that's fantastic. You're a bit of a movie star by the way, You, do mention something in that video. I don't know if you remember, I had to look at it the other day. You talk about sobriety in your life from a really nice perspective, and you say, I'm quoting you here. "It's a lifelong journey, a beautiful journey. And I wouldn't swap it for the world". I just think that's, is a really good way of, of approaching the whole philosophy of sobriety. What do you think? Roger (37:47): Yeah, look, I'd completely forgotten that. I might've said that, but it's something that I absolutely stand by it. I think it's something that I, I now feel, certainly wouldn't swap it for the world. That's definitely true. I think I wish sometimes wish I might've started on this journey a few years earlier, could have saved me a whole lot of pain and heartache. And, if you like, regrets, yeah, look, I wouldn't swap it for the world. Some of the things that you learn in recovery it's not just about drinking or not drinking. A lot of us have a lot of, repair work to do in the psychological or emotional area. A lot of us need to learn a few life skills for coping with, with things. Roger (38:33): And, a lot of it revolves around a lot of the things we're hearing more and more today in society about strategies for mental health, whether it's mindfulness or whatever. A lot of that sort of stuff comes up and it's all, all just good, common sense. Yeah, there are so many benefits to the program. I think chief among them, for me, I think it's just peace of mind. I think that's the most profound thing or the thing that's with me the most is back in the drinking days, you were always thinking about what you'd done the night before, what you'd said, The way you'd acted who you'd upset, what you'd done wrong. Whether anyone saw you. Was it going to come back to bite you or, whatever. And, if you're not just drinking in this out of control fashion night after night, you're not behaving that way. You're not, you're not doing those things and you don't need to worry about the next morning. And, people look at you differently because you're not just that dickhead that gets a bit out of control when he's had a few. You're , you can become the sort of person you can be proud of. You can be a supportive part of your family. You can be there for your kids and you can be relied upon emotionally present, maybe a million ways. Andrew (39:55): Yeah. Yeah. And I'm sure, it's a reciprocal thing. Your family would be really proud of you that , you're living the life you are now, because it's not easy. Roger (40:08): Yeah, we don't. Yeah. We don't talk about it that much, but the, the relationships with the kids were good a long time ago that they were not so good for a period. And they're a lot better now. Andrew (40:21): Yeah. Yeah. Well, you Zoom into the birds meetings in Australia regularly, and I find what you say, quite often, you can distill it into the, the fundamentals of the way to live a happy sober life, which is great. And I find the younger guys and those guys early in sobriety within the group, just really find you as a great inspiration. And they, they hang on- were all just waiting for your next fantastic words of wisdom. You've got so many great. One-liners like the, sobriety gave me everything alcohol promised. It was something that we really embraced and it's so true. Roger (41:08): Look, I can't claim to any of these little pearls really. They're, all just things I've heard at various meetings. Just things you pick up around the place, but yeah, they're just things that resonate with me. And I just think, yeah, that that's perfect. That's so beautiful. It just sums it up. That is great. It just little things that you can just remember, there's that other one was just sent you a little while earlier, and it was talking about how... It was like, addiction is, is giving up everything for one thing. And recovery is giving up one thing for everything, because frequently, the end point of addiction is people lose a lot. They lose lives and careers and, and, and marriages and relationships and everything. It is just total, anihalation for this one thing, this one substance or whatever, you know, recovery is, all you do is just quit that one little pesky little thing that's getting in the way of everything else in your life. Yeah. Andrew (42:07): I was going to ask the question, do you have any advice for someone starting down the path of sobriety, but I think you've probably already given some fantastic advice there, just even in that last quote, but anything else, any advice for someone that's just the equivalent to Roger, just starting in a rehab or whatever, thinking maybe I don't fit in here or, or the doors closed behind me and it's not a great feeling, but what, what sort of inspiration could you give them? Roger (42:40): I think that's the most important thing is to stick with it, give it a red hot go, throw yourself into the whole process with some enthusiasm and some commitment and, the changes, will happen if you sort of just dip your toe in the water and have a bit of a feel, and you're sort of one 40 in and one foot out, it can be very difficult. It can be a long, long process before you really get traction and, see the results that are there to be made. So they're probably the main things and, just, being engaged. There are lots of groups out there. There's birds, there's lots of AA groups. There are, there's lots of support out there. They're not all the same. You know, some, some meetings, some you like some, you won't, some people you like some you won't. Find the ones that work for you and you can be, it can be a bit of a smorgasbord find the things that work and hold, hold close to them, hold them dearly. And, the things that aren't really working for you just yet, just put them to the side, they might be useful later on, but there's room in here for everyone. That's for sure. Yeah, Andrew (43:44): Yeah, yeah. That's right. There is, Roger (43:48): Its not an exclusive club, it's a little bit of a high barrier to membership, but w we're not really that exclusive. Yeah, Andrew (43:53): Yeah, yeah. But once you get, once you get in the club, you know, it's a.... The way of life that the club brings, it's the best kept secret in the world, really. So it's fantastic. It's a great way of living. Roger (44:06): Yeah. Yeah, it is. It's peace of mind and you develop some self-respect again, that you might not have had for, for a long time. Probably start to like yourself a bit more, even through all the denial stage where you keep telling yourself that everything's okay. You're probably in a state of mind where, it's not really, and you just develop that that self-respect, and learn to love yourself again, which is the important Andrew (44:35): Thing. That's fantastic. That's, that's great. Roger (44:37): And we're all worthwhile all of us, you know, no matter where we've been, what we've done, however, we've screwed up before. Andrew (44:43): Yeah, that's, that's, that's great advice, Roger. Great, great insights there, and thanks very much for, for all that. That's just, your so down to earth and you've also got a great sense of humor to boot, so, and that's really important. Yeah. Roger (44:59): I think you're the new, um, you're the new Kerrie O'Brian or the new, uh, Parkinson or something make you make a good interviewer, Andrew (45:07): it's like sobriety. It's going to get better and more enjoyable over time! Roger (45:13): I day at a time, one day at a time, mate Andrew (45:15): It, that's it now. Yeah. We'll say thanks very much. Rog and hope to see you very soon at the next Aussie Band, and hopefully when everything sorts itself out, we'll be able to have a face-to-face meeting and that'd be great. Roger (45:31): Proper face to face. Yeah. We got to look forward to it, mate. And look, thank you very much for this opportunity. It's such a valuable, important thing that you've undertaken here. I, I take my hat off to you, mate. This is gonna make some real and lasting change around the place, I think. Yeah. Andrew (45:50): Thanks mate. Andrew (45:52): Well, hope you enjoyed that conversation with Roger. I certainly did. And every time I speak to him, I get another fantastic insight into how sobriety is just a fantastic way to live life. If you'd like more information on the HIMS network in the U S it's websites HIMSprogram.com, in Australia, it's aushims.org.au, and in New Zealand, it's in nzhims.org.nz. If you are Interested in looking at the Birds of a Feather support group website, the web address is boaf.org. And if you have any feedback regarding this podcast, I'd really enjoy hearing that, and my email is andrew@flyingstraight.com.au. And I look forward to sharing another story with you, soon, Speaker 4 (47:05):

Tony (00:00): I couldn't imagine how far I had fallen. The truth be told, like, I couldn't imagine it was happening to me. I thought this has gotta be some kind of a weird dream, but, it was no dream that's for sure. You know, in one of the jobs in there too was, was scrubbing the latrines in individual cells. And as I was doing that, you know, scrubbing out a stainless steel toilet. I was sitting there thinking, man, three months ago, I was flying a triple seven, Captain, eating cheese and fruit on a tray. And now I'm, on my knees scrubbing a toilet out so that maybe I can get back and go flying again. . (00:42): You are listening to flying straight, and aviators guide to navigating through a life of sobriety. People in the flying industry, and other walks of life, will share their experiences of living a life free of alcohol and other drugs. You will also hear from experts in the world of addiction and self-improvement join Andrew O'Meally, airline, pilot, and non-practicing alcoholic, as he takes you on a journey discovering how a sober life can lead to a deeper level of happiness. Andrew (01:20): Hi everyone. My guest today is retired. Airline Captain Tony Driza talking to us all the way from West Olive, Michigan in the United States. Tiny grew up in Muskegon. I hope I've pronounced that right. It's 25 miles or so down the road from where he is right now. And other than a stint in new England, he's always called Michigan home. Throughout his amazing career, Tony flew some pretty nice airplanes, including a range of Boeing's, the seven O seven, the seven two seven, the seven five seven and the seven six, seven. He also operated the DC 10 and the MD80 before getting an airline. He flew a whole lot of light aircraft as well. He completed his career in command of a Boeing triple seven - big wide body operating between Tokyo and Dallas Fort worth. It was a classically beautiful ending to his career. As he taxiied in towards the terminal. You can just imagine on either side of the taxiway, the fire trucks shooting their water cannons in the air and forming an arch for Tony to maneuver past. This is a tradition in aviation to salute, farewell and thank retiring airline captains for a job well done. So it is a big deal and it's something that is earned when he got off the aircraft, his family were waiting for him to celebrate a perfect end to a perfect career. You might think. Well, the perfect end part that's pretty accurate, but as Tony will tell you shortly, the journey was far from perfect. He didn't just start with a company and fly for a few years then walk away. There were a few interesting events along the way. His career path was not one you'd probably expect from such an experienced pilot. You see Tony had a problem with alcohol so much so that when he drank, he would break out in handcuffs, a direct quote from him. Welcome, Tony. Tony (03:23): Thanks, Andrew. Good to be here. Andrew (03:25): Good to see you. How's life in, Michigan sunny, Michigan Tony (03:30): Sunny today was sunny. It was just cold, uh, is very cold right now, but not cold enough for ice on the lakes. , just about good weather for, we've got a little snow on the ground, good weather for riding a fat tire bicycle through the woods. dealing with the COVID stuff. Pretty much like everybody around the world is, and our governor is starting to relax things a little bit. Uh, we haven't been able to eat in restaurants forever and hurting in another 10 days. We're actually going to be able to do limited, um, dining inside and in restaurants with some restrictions, but we're moving in the right direction. So that's a good thing. Andrew (04:07): Yeah, that, that sounds like a really good thing. So a Michigan, all your life. And , you got an interest in aviation as a young guy. Tony (04:18): Yeah, I really did. We, I lived pretty close under the flight path for Muskegon County airport. So pretty much from the time I can remember wandering around outside, you know, I'd see aircraft flying overhead and my dad would occasionally take us out to the airport. We'd watch, watch airplanes take off and land. And then when I was about 13 years old, I got my first plane ride with a friend of mine who had just got his private pilot license. And I'll tell you what, that was just pure magic. There was nothing like it. I could not imagine how cool that was to see the earth from that perspective, you know, just watching that shadow of the aircraft get tiny as we, as we took off pure magic. And I knew right then right there that, that was going to be the career for me, for sure. Andrew (05:06): Alright, great. So first solo, how old were you when you, when you flew an airplane on your own? Tony (05:12): I soloed when I was 16, I didn't have a driver's license yet. I rode my bicycle to the airport to actually,, do my first solo. So I, I, I soloed early as early as I could, 16 in the States, got my private license when I was 17. And then I think they felt sorry for me because I was spending so much money on flying lessons. I actually hired me to pump gas at the airport. I started pumping gas and washing airplanes and, you know, whatever they needed doing. I did that. And then by the time I was 18 and graduated from high school, I had my commercial, my, all my ground instructor ratings, instrument instructor, and, uh, basic CFI as well. So had pretty much everything except the ATP, the time I got out of high school. Andrew (05:59): Wow. Oh, that's amazing. And then, uh, high school, what happened then? Tony (06:03): Well, after high school, I went, I spent a couple of years in a community college,, and I was still, I at that time, , I graduated from pumping gas. I actually flight instructing and flying some single engine charter. I didn't have a multi-engine rating yet. So I flew some single engine charters., then I continued college in Lansing. Michigan went to Michigan state university, picked up my multi-engine ATP when I was there. And then started flying, multi-engine charters, um, Beech eighteens, Baron, Cessna, three tens, that sort of stuff. When I was working there, when I got hired by American airlines when I was 24. Andrew (06:40): Well, okay. So, flying has definitely been in your blood for the vast majority of your life. And, one would think that that would, create a pretty sort of stable and motivating type life, but that isn't exactly the case, How about you wind the clock back a few years and if you can just paint a picture of how your life was, back a number of years ago? Tony (07:08): Well, I, you know, I really thought it was, it was going along pretty well. Um, you know, I got married when I was pretty young children from my first wife. I was actually married three times over the course of my life so far, but three great kids from my first life or wife first life's wife. and, you know, I thought things were going along. Okay. ,I thought I drank pretty normally at that point, but relationships for me were never as easy as, flying an aircraft that seemed to come naturally, anything to do with relationships with spouses that was kind of tough, and you know, the tougher the relationship got, I think the more I tried to solve it by, you know, maybe having another drink, you know, I seemed like that kind of took all of the sting out of things made. Tony (08:00): I thought it made everything great. And in fact, it's, even early on as early as maybe 30 years ago, I could kind of tell that that was my coping mechanism. When a relationship, especially with my partner was starting to go sideways, that I would usually, you know, turn towards alcohol to try and solve it. And it just progressively got worse. I refuse to accept that every single wife that I was married to all three of them, they said you have a problem with alcohol and each marriage progressively got shorter in duration. my, last marriage, , didn't even last five years, it probably never have happened to start with, but that's another story probably for another time, but alcohol is definitely a huge problem in all of those relationships as things started to go sideways. Andrew (08:53): Okay. And, I remember once you were talking about that new wife smell, so possessions and so on were things that you chased and new experiences? Tony (09:04): That's exactly it, I always looked to just try and acquire what I thought I didn't have. If I was having a problem with a certain wife, I thought, well, I'm either gonna maybe go have an affair and get what I was lacking in my relationship. And then everything would be perfect. And of course that never turned out to be the case. Um,, I literally kept thinking that if I could just get this new wife or get this new car or get this better sailboat or a new camera, you name it, any of those things I thought that was gonna actually take me over the happiness hump, I would get it and I would say now what, cause I don't feel any happier than I did before. Andrew (09:47): Yeah. Right. That resonates with me. And especially at the moment with the whole COVID thing and being stood down from work, and I've always thought that I needed things, material possessions around me to, to make me happy. And that the weird thing has been the less things I have, the happier I seem to be, which I'm still trying to work all that out. But anyway, so other than that relationship issues and so on, things seem to be tracking along. Okay. Pretty, as you probably thought, typical for an airline Captain and had a good wage coming in and on the afternoon of November the ninth, 19, 2016, you told me how you decided to go and visit a buddy just to have a couple of bourbons. That was a hell of a session. Can you tell us a bit about that? Tony (10:41): Yeah. Well, it actually started a little bit before I decided to go to my buddy's house, I was already separated, so I was living at home, feeling particularly rotten about life in general. So I started drinking bourbon pretty early in the morning and it was a Saturday. So there was a lot of college football games on, and that was my plan. I was just going to sit around and watch college football all day drink, you know, I didn't have to fly. I think my next trip was maybe four or five days in advance. Didn't wasn't too worried about anything. So I was pretty well hammered when I, when I decided, that it would be a great idea to just drive over to my buddy's house. Just five miles straight down the street, no turns, no anything. I just had to make one turn out of my driveway, one other turn into his driveway. Tony (11:28): So it's not like it was very complicated. And I definitely remember getting down to his house and we sat in, out in his barn and had a couple of a couple of more bourbons and he had some really good bourbon that tasted better than what I had been drinking all day. So we're just sitting there smiling and everything was good. I remember it was right about sunset. I left his house and I made the turn go to my house. And the next thing I remember, two hours later was just a very violent impact of a head-on automobile crash. So for two hours I was apparently driving around. I have no recollection where I was, or what I had been doing. I still had my clothes on, so I guess it was, it was okay, but really no recollection. I never saw the car that I hit coming at me. I never saw or heard the sirens, the police vehicles, ambulances, stuff like that coming afterwards. I just remember the violent impact and getting out of the truck and where, when they found me, I was just laying on the ground, outside the truck. My next memories of that were just waking up in the hospital with a chest full of broken ribs, broken breast bones, broken fingers, and some lacerations. And it was at that point, I thought, well, this is not good. Andrew (12:51): You're lucky to be alive by the sounds of it. Tony (12:54): I truly, truly was. The impact, I was going about 55 and he was doing about 40. So it's the same kind of a thing as hitting a tree at about 90 miles an hour, both, vehicles were totalled. They had to cut him out of his truck. I'm just very grateful that he actually was driving a full-sized vehicle and I was too, the airbags deployed. We were both kind of skinned up in the face from the airbags, but at least we didn't have any other damage that way. So we're both very fortunate, but, he had some more serious injuries than I did. He broke ankle and had to have five or six different surgeries to try and put his leg back together. Andrew (13:34): God. Yeah. So, what did you think? Lucky escape. And, I'll continue, have a few weeks off flying and then back to work again, or what were you thinking then? Tony (13:47): No, it was an, almost an instant realization that what I had been doing, finally caught up with me. I for about a couple of years, I was thinking I was just barely staying ahead of the wreckage behind me. I knew my drinking was getting worse. I was having some, some health issues. I, you know, would just all of a sudden start to cough uncontrollably. I didn't miss any work. I was sort of a binge drinker. I would, you know, drink at home in between trips and rarely if ever drank anything on a layover. I just never wanted to have any, I had seen too many guys get arrested at the airport, in some foreign country. And I said, I'm never going to do that. But when I got home, it was a different, uh, a different story. So I actually came to the realization quite quickly. Tony (14:37): I was only in the hospital for two days, came back home. And the first phone call that I made was, to the, my pilots union, allied pilots association, it was to the HIMS, chair. And I had, I remember writing that phone number down several years back at recurrent training. So I dug that out and gave him a call and literally I was shaking so badly on the phone. I'm not sure he even understood what I was saying, but I think he had heard that same kind of a cry for help many times before. Andrew (15:11): Right, Okay. Just winding back a little bit there you were saying you're a binge drinker. You didn't go out much on slips, on trips away. So I guess from the outside the pilot community that you were, you were in ,would have not perceived you as the typical image of, of that alcoholic drunk that a lot of people do have in their mind. They would've just seen you as Tony Driza the triple seven captain. Tony (15:42): I think that's a pretty fair statement. And I think I became over the years, I became pretty proficient at it, putting the image forth that I wanted other people to see. And it didn't matter what type of group I was with. If I was with some buddies who were drinking, I could be that drunken guy. If I was with, you know, with the airline staff, I completely shut that off. And I was Mr. Professional Captain. Like I said, rarely even drank even a beer or something on a layover. And so, I disguised that pretty well when it came to work, but I felt at home, I didn't have to disguise it. In fact, I got to the point of certainly in my last marriage where I had no intention of disguising it and, you know, we'd get I get into an argument with my ex-wife and rather than try and sort it out that way, I just would get belligerent and, you know, and have another scotch or another bourbon or a beer or wine or whatever I happen to have. Um, but yeah, the image that I projected to, to everybody else, nobody really had any idea that I was an alcoholic. Andrew (16:52): So there's Captain, Tony Driza lying in hospital. You're making a few phone calls. And, you mentioned, so you rang up the HIMS chair. So just, for those that didn't listen to the previous podcast, I briefly explained HIMS It's a supportive organization, not for profit that's in, around the world, but started off in the U S and it gets pilots back in the air again, from pilots who have been there and pilots such as tiny who will probably talk about that soon. So you made a phone call to the HIMS chair, Mike Galante that you spoke with. Tony (17:31): Yeah, Mike was actually the, he was the HIMS chair. And so I spoke with him, you know, told him what was going on. And he reassured me that, number one, I wasn't the first person to have this happen too, which was a great relief to me. And he said, you know, I don't know if we can get you back in time before you have to retire. Because at the time I was 63 years old and mandatory retirement age is 65. So he wasn't sure that I would ever get back to work just from the logistical standpoint of it takes anywhere between eight to 10 months, typically to go through this program and get your special issuance medical back. And so he was a little uncertain of how that was going to look like. But he says, Hey, we'll get you in there as soon as you're well, enough to travel. Tony (18:17): And it took actually two weeks before I was well enough to travel. I did a 30 day inpatient, stint at a rehab center in California, which was the first part of the AME's requirement that you do one of those first, but even before I could do that, because of the offense that I committed, in the state that I live, it's a felony. And I had to get the permission from a circuit court judge to even leave the state because once you've committed a felony, they didn't want me to leave the state. So I was granted permission to travel to the rehab center and at least get that part of it out of the way and come back to Michigan. Andrew (18:57): Uh, okay. So, Mike really guided you through a lot of the process and, was there any talk of, "hey, maybe you're not going to be a free man in the near future" or was that always, was that already something that was really high in your thought processes? Tony (19:18): It was very high in my thought process because when I got out of the hospital and I, you know, and I read the traffic citation, and what I was being charged with, and it was a felony and I looked it up and my jaw just about hit the floor because it said, this is punishable by up to five years in prison and a $10,000 fine. And I thought, wow. I mean, I knew I had done something seriously wrong. I didn't quite kill this individual, but I came pretty close to killing him and myself and the state took it very seriously. So I knew that this felony charge was going to happen. I knew it was something that I did not want to fight. I knew what I had done. And from that standpoint, I just wanted to lean into it. Um, you know, to start the path back, whatever that looked like, whatever it was going to take to get my life back on track, I was willing to do it. Um, I just wanted the opportunity to do it. And thankfully the circuit judge, let me leave the state to start that. But I was very aware that when I got finished up with rehab, that I was going to probably be going to jail or prison for some amount of time. I just didn't know at that time for how long, Andrew (20:29): So the court case happened. And, tell us a little bit about, how that all went. Tony (20:37): Well, again, it was the first time for me ever being in court like that. And I had been conversing with my attorney and he was saying that he thought probably I would get 30 days in jail, that the judge would see that was the sentence that was recommended. And I thought, okay, 30 days I can, I can kind of handle that. And so, you know, I'm dressed up in all of my fine clothes, looking presentable to the judge and answering the questions. And, when he told me to, rise for the sentencing, he sentences me to six months in jail and I thought was, I mean, wow, I had no idea that that was, was coming, based on the court recommendation. I really wasn't prepared for that, but when they said six or six months in jail, and I thought the first thing I thought of was, well, that's the end of the airline career because I was already on a pretty tight time table as it was just because of my age. Tony (21:41): And I thought, well, that's the nail in the coffin right there. I'm never going to get back to fly again, which was, it was just absolutely crushing because of all the work that I had put in to my recovery program. To that point, I had already been through the inpatient treatment. I'd already done the intensive outpatient treatment. I did the 90 AA meetings in 90 days and was just bicycling back and forth to all of these events to make it happen. And then to go into jail where they only had one AA meeting per week. And it was sort of a joke. I think the only time that people actually went to this meeting was to get out of their cell just for an hour. And they didn't really cause they would go back into after the meeting, they would go back and say, well. When I get out of here, I'm going to, I'm going to go drink again. And I knew I was not going to, but it was, it was very disheartening to have to spend that time in there. And I had asked the judge if I could, you know, get out of jail periodically to attend some of the required meetings for HIMS. And he flat refused to let me out until my sentence was completely served. Andrew (22:52): Well, what a, what an experience. So once that sentencing, the six months you heard that you were in for six months, I'm not, I don't know. I'm not familiar with the system in the US but do you get to go home and get your toothbrush and change your undies or what happens there? Tony (23:12): Uh, no, no, and no, right straight from the sentencing, there's a door from the courtroom and I was led through that door. They took my tie away from me, anything that they thought I could hurt myself with, they took away from me, immediately put me in handcuffs in a waist chain and leg chains and handcuffs and then I sat downstairs for about two hours, just on a concrete slab with a bunch of other people that were now being transported to jail. And so sat there for a couple of, and was transported to jail and then sat in jail on a different piece of concrete slab. They actually took the handcuffs off for a little while, while we were in that other holding cell. But we sat in there on a concrete again for about 12, almost 12 hours before it was almost midnight. And before they actually took me to my cell block where I was going to spend the next hour is as it turns out four months. Andrew (24:13): Oh my God. So you've gone from wide body Captain Tony Driza to being handcuffed and sitting on a concrete slab. What a feeling Tony (24:33): It was. I couldn't imagine how far I had fallen. The truth be told, like, I couldn't imagine it was happening to me. I thought this has gotta be some kind of a weird dream, but, it was no dream that's that's for sure. But, you know, at that point I remember listening to, I was fortunate enough to have heard Lyle Prouse's story, where he had actually went to prison as well for a year and a half,, for what he had done. And just knowing that he had been through a similar situation, and, and made it through, gave me a lot of hope. And in fact, in the, in the big book, one of the stories in there is his story is just called grounded, near the back of the big book. And I think that was the first story that I actually read in the, AA big book and reading through that thing. At least there was some hope that, okay, I'm not the first person that this happened to either and he ended up getting back. So maybe there's a chance that I'll get back as well. Andrew (25:34): Right. So Lyle was the first us pilot to be jailed for drinking, flying. He was in prison for quite some time, but it was what, what sort of advice was Lyle giving you when you, when you went in there? Tony (25:51): Well, I didn't speak to him directly. I heard him speak at a HIMS seminar. And so it was just mostly his words. And I think the thing that motivated me the most was, his total acceptance of what he had done and the fact that he didn't want to delay going to jail. He just wanted to get on with it, and get this over with. And that was the same sort of an attitude that I wanted to take as well. I didn't want to fight this. I didn't want to appeal it. I sort of felt, I was lucky in some regards because I could have been sentenced to up to five years in prison. And even though six months was more than what I thought I was going to get. There was still a lot better than what I might have have received. So what Lyle gave me, I think was just some inspiration and some motivation that, okay, this isn't the end of the world. It's going to be a tough path back, but the way to get through this is to just really dig into it, lean into it and get all the help that I could along the way. Andrew (26:58): That's great. So it sounds like you had a lot of support there to get through, the likes of Lyle and Mike Galante, we mentioned, and probably family and a whole range of other people, which is fantastic now. So when you got in there and you had all this support, obviously you didn't just sit back thinking, well, this is wonderful. I'll just draw upon this support and wait until my time finishes, there would have been a lot of, sort of unsavory sort of tasks that you would have had to perform while you're in prison. Tony (27:33): Um, there truly were, and actually is unsavory as they were, they had a program, it was called a sentence work abatement program where if I worked outside of the jail every day, um, for every four days that I worked, they reduced my sentence by one day. So during the Monday to Friday, part of the, of the prison deal, I would be outside. I was doing landscaping work, uh, you name it, we did it, whatever the towns needed. They just needed some manual labor, moving things around. And, and the funny thing was, I mean, I was far and away the oldest guy in this swap, deal, I was 64 years old. And most of these people in there were kids. I mean, they were in their twenties and, and I think I outworked most of them. I was motivated once I found out I could reduce my jail time. I was, I worked pretty hard, but, you know, in one of the jobs in there too was, was scrubbing, um, the latrines in, in individual cells. And as I was doing that, you know, rough scrubbing out a stainless steel toilet. I was sitting there thinking, man, three months ago, I was flying a triple seven, a Captain eating cheese and fruit on a tray. And now I'm on my knees scrubbing a toilet out so that maybe I can get back and go flying again. Andrew (29:01): So you got out and, obviously, flying, as we said, was, was in your veins in your blood. So I guess most people probably would've thought, well, now they've got a short period of time until retirement. I might as well just hang out till then and, not fly and then disappear somewhere. How did you approach all that when you got out? Tony (29:29): When I got out of jail, I was able to really get back into the HIMS program, Hard. I still had a couple of major obstacles to get through. I still had to do the psychiatric evaluation, and then I had to do a cognitive brain screen test. So I had to go down to South Carolina to take both of those, did pretty well on that. And all of the paperwork was finally in order. They put that off to the FAA, I believe in October of 2017. And once the FAA gets the paperwork, it can sometimes take two, three, four, five months, whatever the FAA up here works very slowly. So I had no idea how quickly they'd be able to look at my file and make a determination one way or the other, if I get my special issuance medical. So once they submitted it, I was kind of on pins and needles. Tony (30:25): I was still on long-term disability at American, which I'm very grateful for because financially I didn't have any hardships. I was still getting a paycheck. Even though I was now divorced, I, you know, so I was living at home. I was still doing AA meetings. I was still doing aftercare. But I was just waiting to hear from the FAA. And when I finally heard from the FAA was in January of 2018, there was only three months before my 65th birthday. I called American airlines and told them I had my special issuance. They put me on the payroll that very same day, and they, they gave me a couple of choices and I didn't really realize that I was even gonna have a choice, and I realized now that Mike Galante from Allied Pilots Association had, had spoken with the, our vice president of flight at American airlines. Tony (31:22): Interestingly enough, I had flown with him when he was just, &@& First Office,r or, you know, we knew each other. And when Mike mentioned my situation,, I know that he, he pulled a few strings and he said, they gave me an option. They said, well, you can stay at home. We'll just pay you until your retirement day, or if you want to, or if you want to try and get back and fly, you're going to have to do a complete requal on the triple seven, do all the back training that you've missed in the last year and a half, and we'll get you back and we'll make it happen. And I said, I want to go fly the triple seven again. And so weeks later, they got me, they, they patched together, a re qualification training thing because all of the training slots had already been awarded, for that particular time period. So they hand crafted a program just for me. I was the only one in it, you know, usually go through with another copilot, but they used our ground school instructors. They use SIM pilots for my FO on the triple seven, to get me back through that. And then I took the check ride, which I passed, um, and was able to get back and fly that one last retirement trip just four days before my 65th birthday. Andrew (32:43): That's amazing. Yeah. That the, the cost of, of training just for that one flight, I'd hate to think what it could even be, you know, the resources with the manpower, the simulators, the administration, and on and on, and on, and on. I mean, normally the, the investment from the airline airlines are a business that usually expect a pretty good return on their investment. Obviously, American airlines, we're getting nothing out of this other than the fact that they were really looking after you. And, that just goes to really show what a, what a great organization they are and HIMS as well to getting you to that point. Tony (33:27): Exactly. And that wasn't lost on me, that American was going to get nothing from this other than the - it's, it's even, it's even hard for me to put into words, but I think with American, and I would like to think with other companies, but I know this for sure, with American, they really care about the individual. They weren't just paying lip service to it. And for them to put that kind of investment into me, the simulator time, I don't have any idea what the whole program costs. I'm not sure simulator time on a triple seven is definitely not cheap and then they had to buy some other captain off of the trip that I actually flew, to make that happen and put a check airman on the trip as well. So it was, it was very costly for them. Tony (34:15): and it, it just, it, the other thing that pointed out to me too, though, was that, there is a certain reward, as I say, in the, in the AA 12 step thing that the promises do come true if you work for them. And I think part of the reason that they were happy to maybe go a little bit of an extra mile was I really put a lot of effort into trying, you know, just to be a different human being from, from the one that I was before I went into the HIMS program. I think they recognize that. And, that's the other reason I think, in the longterm that the union and the airline actually asked me to stay on and the HIMS program and volunteers as a peer monitor. And I'm still doing that three years after I retired. Andrew (35:02): Yeah. Good on, ya, that's as you say, it's not just lip service from the airline. It's, it shows a really deep engagement with everyone, but it's, a real honesty about the airline as well. And that's the perception I get about it, but that effort that you're talking about, you know, someone once explained to me, or gave me their take on, effort and believing in something bigger than yourself guiding you was, uh, it's like we're in a boat and the effort we're just at the oars and where we're rowing as hard we can and that whatever it is the rudder. So as long as we, we row really hard in that boat that, that higher power or whatever you believe it is, will be guiding you to where you want to get to. Fantastic. So it was only, only a few days until your retirement date, that, that, that last flight took place. You landed at, uh, Tokyo and, uh, what happened then? Andrew (36:06): Well, Tokyo was pretty easy and it was a really shortly over, the layover hotel is pretty close to the airport. I had been flying there for years, so everybody knew it was my retirement trip. They had a nice little party for me at the hotel, and usually they would break out bottles of wine and champagne and everything else. And I said, no, you other guys can have that. And so they had some nice sparkling Perrier, for me, you know, but again, it was a short layover and, you know, we flew back to Dallas and they obviously had the, the water cannon salute all set up. Andrew (36:46): You were taxiing in, did you expect that, did you know that was coming? Tony (36:51): It was going to happen. American said that they were going to do it. And my concern was the day that on my retirement trip, the temperature was below freezing in Dallas. it was maybe minus two Celsius or something like that. Clear skies, beautiful day, but it was very cold. And I was thinking, I don't know if they're going to shoot water cannons, you know, through the inlet. So these big triple seven engines, you know, and fouled these engines up, you know, we're trying to figure out, should we turn on the engine, anti ice, or what's going on here actually again, but, the, they did the water cannon salute right at the gate. All we had to do is just line up on the, on the lead in line. And there was a firetruck on either side and they shot the water cannons over the top of the fuselage and Flight Attendants took a lot of pictures from the inside. And my two daughters were up on the roof of the airport at the Hyatt Regency filming it from up there. So I got some great video and some great pictures from both inside and outside. Andrew (37:52): That's unreal. That's really good, lucky you did it at, when you finally got to the gate and not taxiing. And imagine if this, if the engines flamed out and you never got to the other end, but that would have been a little bit embarrassing! But that's excellent, mate. Really good. So you get home and then that's the end of the career. How is life. Now, as far as you were saying, you're kayaking and riding your bike around, but, tell us a bit about your, building of your kayak? Tony (38:25): Well, the kayak was, was great. In fact, even after flying, I knew that I had to do something to replace all the time that I had spent drinking home, because I had a lot of hobbies and I just quit doing them when I was drinking. I'd have a few drinks in the morning and I would quit, I would just not do any projects. So with the years that I had in sobriety, after I retired, I thought, well, I've got to do something now, what do you want to do? Then? I thought, well, I've got this beautiful wood shop and it's winter. I always wanted to, build a kayak. And so I found a company that sold kits, everything was pre-cut. And then, so I ordered one of these, it showed up at the house, and I said, as I started unpacking, and I thought, man, I don't know if I could put this thing together. Tony (39:13): And it looked like it's going to take some time, but the beauty, I think of sobriety and in a good recovery is you just look at these things a lot differently. You know, you look at it as an opportunity to do something. And so I had plenty of time. I needed to fill that time up with, I like to think of it as just being a distraction literally the best part of my days in recovery are I don't focus on not drinking because to me that, that means that always I'm thinking about a drink and then just saying to myself, well, I'm not going to drink. Okay. So thinking about something else. And so, that's kind of what got me into the kayaking, deal. I knew it was going to take a lot of hours to put this thing together. And it was a great project. Took me just about all winter of 2019 to complete that kayak. And I could not hardly wait until winter was over and I could put the thing in the water and actually go and paddle it. Andrew (40:14): Yeah. Mate I've seen, you've sent me pictures of it and the actual construction of it, which is pretty intricate. And then the, the finished product, which is really, it is a work of art, you know, it's this beautiful, what would it be about, uh, I'm just trying to think in feet here, but 14 foot thereabouts, Tony (40:36): 17 and a half feet long. Andrew (40:38): Oh, wow. Okay. 17. Yeah. It's, it's serious and it's, it's varnished and the curves on it and everything it's really, really, it is beautiful. And I guess you've probably gotten to the end of it, thought, I don't want to use this you know, I don't want to scratch it. It looks like something you'd hang up on,, you know, from the ceiling of, of a fancy hotel or something, it's just absolutely beautiful. And then you've sent some photos of, of actually using it and some great adventures with it. Tony (41:07): Yeah. I have, I've done some kayak camping with it. I took it up to Lake Superior. and it was just a really short trip, but usually Lake superior is ordinarily, it's too rough to do a lot of paddling on, but the day that I went up there, it was beautiful weather. Sunny skies, no waves. And it was maybe,, an eight mile paddle from where I put in to where the campground is, where I spent the night. And it was just wonderful to be out there, you know, and here I am, you know, 67 years old hauling this kayak through the woods with all my camping gear and going for a nice paddle and no thought of drinking, no alcohol anywhere. And, I just had the best time of my life, you know, doing it. I tried to get somebody to go with me, but I couldn't find anybody on short notice to do it. So I just did it solo. Andrew (41:59): Yeah. Oh, fantastic. What a mind clearing experience. Tony (42:05): It was beautiful, just gorgeous. That's the kind of feeling that I have pretty much every day. You know, I'm doing something either. I've gone for a hike and I do a fair amount of backpacking or riding and as fat tire bike around on the trails here and that sort of that same feeling that at the end of the day, I've gotten through it clearheaded, I've stayed busy. I have, you know, pretty active routines where, you know, between,, going to online AA meetings because of COVID right now. and then just staying busy throughout the rest of the day. It's the beauty of it to me anyway, and I'm really grateful for there just is rarely ever a thought of bringing alcohol back into my life. I remember it was one of the Aussie Bird's meetings. I think that, I heard this, this is, this is huge. It says, you know, sobriety gave me everything that alcohol promised and,, and that is so true that,, you know, this sober lifestyle is, is really, has taught me that that's what it's all about. I don't have to go chasing all this other stuff, thinking it's gonna make me happy. I, it just naturally kind of follows me around these days. Andrew (43:19): Yeah. that's fantastic. I agree, the level of happiness I find through asober life. It's such a deeper level of happiness because it's not an artificial, type of happiness. We don't pay you know, financially to get that happiness. We're not going to a bottle shop or liquor store and I'm paying money and then drinking and expecting sitting back and expecting to be happy. Or, you know, it's also like going to the movies you pay for a ticket. So you expect to be happy or go on a cruise, when you could do that sort of thing, and pay the money and sit back and say, well, "now make me happy" things that take effort, like building your kayak and, you know, living a sober life. It takes a lot of effort. And the depth of happiness is, is just the reward is just second to none. Andrew (44:14): It's unbelievable. But yeah. Now you're talking about the Aussie birds of a feather. So birds of a feather is, it's an AA group for aircrew. So we have, Australian Birds of a Feather it's on Zoom at the moment and Tony Zooms in and, shares his words of wisdom with us. And I remember the other day at a Bird's meeting, you were talking about, cause you, have brought it up a couple of times during this conversation about not focusing on drinking. and then you gave an analogy of riding a motorbike. Can you just relay that? Tony (44:57): Well, yeah, I mean, to me, a lot of it is about what I focus on and I I've, I've observed with a lot of just the AA meetings that I've gone to. So many people are, are, are 100% focused on just not drinking and they really haven't made too many life changes. They're just trying to get through this thing with nothing but sheer willpower and saying to themselves for today, I'm not going to drink, but they really haven't changed anything. And to me, I needed to put the focus on something else. I remember one of the counselors when I was in rehab, they said, rather than spending an inordinate amount of time and energy to fix something that's broken, try and create something that's new because eventually you're going to get tired of trying to fix that broken thing. It's, broken beyond the point of being repaired. Tony (45:51): So I put my focus just like I do with my motorcycle. I've got a beautiful Indian motorcycle that now the state of Michigan says I can legally ride again. So I'm looking forward to summer. But I think with the analogy that you were looking for there is when I was taking a motorcycle riding course, they said the motorcycle is going to go where your head and your eyes are looking. So if you see an obstacle in the road, stop looking at the obstacle, stop looking at what you want to avoid, look where you want the bike to go, and the bike will go that way. And I've found that that's pretty true with my focus on alcohol as well. I'm focusing on either building a kayak or maybe getting out a guitar and playing it or trying to capture some great shots where the camera, anything to put my focus someplace else, because that's where my mind goes. And alcoholism is pretty much a disease of the mind anyway. And what we do in between the ears, I think has a lot to do with how successful recovery is going to be. So I put my focus on other things, not so much on just, do not picking up the bottle in any given day. Andrew (47:10): Yeah, that, that was the analogy I was looking for. It's, it's fantastic. I relay that to people all the time and it's pretty much whatever you focus on, you're going to hit on a motorbike. And, that's, I feel that, you know, it's not so much suppressing the, the cravings and so on. It's just changing the track and thinking about something else without suppressing. It's really important. I find. Yeah. Anyway, that's, an amazing story, Tony you were the, the significant inspiration in getting this whole project up and running because when we were over in, uh, Denver, less than two years ago, I went to my first birds of a feather meeting. I had a, there was a hymns convention over there. And so I walked in, there was the HIMS convention had,, probably a couple of hundred, recovering alcoholic and substance use disorder, pilots there. Andrew (48:14): And, it was just an amazing to just all to get together. But anyway, walking into that birds of a feather meeting, and I hear this guy started telling his story, and that was you, and I just thought straight away, there's this story needs to really get out there-and other stories. I mean, there's so many different stories out there that, they're interesting, and they can actually influence people's futures, i believe. So I really think that'll happen. So, thanks for taking the time to share your life experience with us today. Now you're a great inspiration for many pilots, here in this part of the world, in Australia, all over the world. You know, in Australia, we sincerely hope that, you can come over one day and visit us, or some of us will probably end up coming over to do some kayaking with you in that beautiful area. Tony (49:11): Well, yeah. And I would just like to say to you, I mean, I remember well that meeting that, when we first met in Denver and, you know, there was, there was a powerful connection that we sort of formed right off the bat, I was, I was really impressed at number one, that you had come all the way from Australia to Denver, to start gathering this information. I was even more impressed when I saw you the following spring down in Atlanta at the advanced HIMS seminar. And I, said to myself, I mean, this is this is a man who really wants to take what we have here in the States and bring it back down under and get a program going because the disease really doesn't care. What, hemisphere we're in, whether we're North or South of the equator, it's the same thing, and pilots around the world are pretty much the same. We love what we're doing. We want to get back in the cockpit and what you're doing, through this podcast and, you know, your involvement in putting these birds meetings together. It's, I'll tell you what, it's just, a powerful motivation for me to keep doing what I'm doing as well. So thank you for that. Andrew (50:18): Oh, thanks mate I think it's that, that buzzword synergy too, you know, we all get together and the, and what we get out of is greater than the Sum of its parts. And, it guys like you just so inspiring and looks forward to doing this again pretty soon. And I'm sure we will. Tony (50:37): Well, I hope you get, I hope you can come to the States and we'll go kayaking. And, as soon as this COVID thing is over, I'm going to get an Australian visa and come down under and we'll go do something fun. Andrew (50:49): we'll Kayak through the Whitsundays. How does that sound? Andrew (50:52): I love it. All right, man. Andrew (50:54): Thanks. Tony (50:55): You're welcome, Andrew. Andrew (50:57): I hope you enjoyed Tony's story and maybe got something out of it. He regularly gives valuable insights into how to live a happy, fulfilled and sober life. To me, Tony's story is a classic example of it could happen to anyone - if alcohol is a significant factor. If you'd like more information on the organization, HIMS, you can find it on various websites. The Australian one is aushims.org.au, In the U S. It is himsprogram.com and, our bros across the pond in New Zealand. It is nzhims.org.nz Any feedback regarding this podcast would be much appreciated. My email is andrew@flyingstraight.com.au. Thanks for listening to the flying straight podcast.