Anthony Quatrochi - Kokoro Kai Jujitsu

Joel Huncar - "You train with attachment and aggression."

Joel Huncar--FMA, Muay Thai, Silat--talks critical theories for suviving and dominating combat, including powerful insights into agression, bridging, entanglement, and more! MTP - Huncar Joel Huncar: [00:00:00] He tore through the, one of his opponent's biceps, like literally tore pieces, pieces of him off his body with a rattan stick. Steve: Wow. Joel Huncar: Like, this guy could generate amazing power. Welcome to the Martial Theory Podcast. Steve: Joel, thanks so much for joining me on the Martial Theory Podcast. It's an honor. Joel Huncar: Well, it's an honor to be here. I, I really, uh, I'm happy to be here, sir. Steve: So, uh, for people who don't know, give us the two-minute version of your background and what you teach. Joel Huncar: Um, well, I started in, uh- various martial arts. Like, like as a kid, I did a bit of training, found it hard, didn't really wanna do it, and then as an adult, um, I got knocked out at a bush party because of stupidity that I caused, and I thought I'd better learn how to fight. So I started in, uh, Mantis Kung Fu under, uh, [00:01:00] Sifu Barry Northey. Did a couple years of that, but then moved. Uh, that... I went to Abbotsford, where I found Muay Thai under Arjan Songwit Singthon, and I stuck with that for a few years. Was never a fighter, um, but always helped coach and stuff like that. So, uh, I start- meh, I started coaching here many years later as well, but I really went deep into Filipino arts. Um, so I, I've, I've got, um... Let's see. I've got a few under my belt right now. My main focus for FMA has been De Campo 123 Original for the last couple years because it's filled a void I had for long range fighting. Um, and it's really given me a lot of new and better body mechanics. The system is amazing. So such a small syllabus, [00:02:00] but so much to learn in it. S- and, uh, I'm very lucky because, uh, through that I've met Paolo Pegaling, who is an absolute genius. Um, my, my- one of my big influences, Guru Louie Lindo, was the one who suggested I, I do this. So, um, I really... I'm so happy that he did because I would have never known, and it's lit a fire under, Steve: under me. What's it... So maybe you can help me understand, what is it that is, uh, has lit that fire? What's the genius aspect of it that draws you to it? Help us understand that. Well, Joel Huncar: it's the details of movement, right? Like, um, the way Paolo chains his, uh, stepping, um, body weight transfer, the um, using every joint as, um, an enhancement to your, your power, like the ch- the [00:03:00] kinetic chain. He, he re- he explains and helps his students understand. He really, um, gets into why the art was So repute, it w- it had a reputation to be a deadly art, and, and, um- Steve: Why, so why is that? Tell me why that is. What, what about this art is so distinctive that makes it so fearful? Joel Huncar: The power generation. Steve: Yeah. Joel Huncar: Jose Caballero was known to be able to... And the act, he was, he was a phenom. He was known to be able to, like, pick a piece of a guy's ear off with a stick. Um, in one fight he tore through the, one of his opponent's biceps, like literally tore pieces, pieces of him off his body with a rattan stick. Steve: Wow. Joel Huncar: Like, this guy could generate amazing power. Um, David Gould writes about it in his book on Lamaico Escrima because it's one of the [00:04:00] building blocks of Lamaico. It's one of the main building blocks of Lamaico, and, um, it's one of the things that made, um, Edgar Sulite such a, a feared, uh, fighter, a respected fighter. You know, he became the, a huge influence to Dan Inosanto, to the Dog Brothers, and a lot of that was due to his Decampo, as well as his Ilustrisimo, another system that is highly respected. Steve: Yeah. Very different systems, right? Joel Huncar: What's that? Steve: They're very different, Decampo Joel Huncar: They're very different. They are very different. Um, Ilustrisimo is, is so heavy in the blade. It's, um, it's, it's amazing. It's an amazing art. In, in fact, um, Paulo, my, my Decampo maestro, is training a lot with, uh, Yuli Romo, one of, uh, the original, um, Ilustrisimo people. So he, he, his expression of [00:05:00] Escrima is deep into those two worlds. And through, uh, Yuli Romo, uh, he's been encouraged to- Look into, um, Balintawak as well, and he's also repping Baraw Sugbo, which is an amazing n- counter knife system that, uh, is only empty hand against knives. It's a, it's a, a Escrima style that has no stick. Steve: Oh, I'd love to s- that's interesting. I'd love to see what that's like. Joel Huncar: Oh, it's, it's really cool. It's really cool. Something that I'm working with, uh, one of my students here on, um, with Palo, we're gonna see him this, this, uh, Sunday on Zoom and work on that. It's har- it's a really hard system to learn, um, visually, whereas Dekampo is really... That's one thing I love about Dekampo is I was able to learn it and apply it through Zoom lessons and things like that be- but because Baraw Sugbo is such a [00:06:00] tactile system, it's much harder to learn through those video lessons, right? Um, so eventually I'll have to figure out how to meet up with, uh, um, some of these people. But I've done, um, workshops with, uh, Guru Lui, who also is going to the Philippines, working with Maestro Ceniza at the, or Grandmaster Ceniza, the head of the, uh, Baraw Sugbo system. So hopefully over the next couple years that's gonna be the, the focus. Steve: So what do you- Uh, mor- What do you, what do you teach now- Morally and ethically what do you teach now at your school? Do you teach every style individually? No. Do, do you combine everything- No, no, no ... and you have your own? How, what's your approach to teaching all this stuff that you know? Joel Huncar: Um, I focus, uh, mainly on, like, I do a lot of bridging techniques that, that I, uh, really pull from Mata Arnis, which was my original style, and Balintawak. Um, and I, when I teach B- um, [00:07:00] Dekampo, I teach it separate. I separate, like, because I think it's such a good long range base, and then the bridging techniques allow you to close distance if you want, or if you're forced to, you can, if distance is closed on you, you have the skills to clinch and, and apply trapping. But, uh, as far as like if I was, if I was teaching purely competitive stick fighting, it would just be decampo. It would, it would, it would just be like that would be it. Hmm. Steve: If you're enjoying this podcast, please subscribe, like, and follow. What takes five seconds for you actually means a great deal on our end. More than that, nothing is more powerful in our martial community than word of mouth. So please tell other martial artists you know about this podcast. Better yet, send it to them. And if you haven't already, please check out my book, [00:08:00] Martial Theory, which has been called The Art of War for the Martial Arts, and which is available on Amazon in paperback, e-book, and audiobook formats. And if you want to join the movement of martial artists coming together to dig deep into martial arts theory and strategy, then join us at martialtheoryu.com [https://martialtheoryu.com], where a range of senior instructors and I provide instruction, articles, live events, Q&A sessions, discussion forums, and more. Martial Theory University is also where you can see instructors interviewed here demonstrate the concepts that they discuss on the podcast. And when you join us at martialtheoryu.com [https://martialtheoryu.com], please make sure you save 20% with the code MTPODCAST. Finally, if you don't want to join us at Martial Theory University, but want to support the time and effort it takes to produce this podcast, then please support us on Patreon, which you can do for as little as five bucks a month. But [00:09:00] once again, if you join us at Martial Theory University, make sure you use the discount code MTPODCAST Joel Huncar: for 20% off while it lasts. And now, this week's episode. Steve: When, when, uh, Mark Cardona was being interviewed on the podcast, one of the things he talked about from a gong fu perspective was how he feels as though fighting really happens in the transitions, and I thought that was a fascinating statement. But your- I love Joel Huncar: that. Steve: Yeah. I, I wonder, your-- you focus a lot on bridging, and I wonder if you can sort of describe for me... And I think I could come up with 12 reasons, but I wanna hear yours, uh, and I'm sure our listeners could come up with their own thinking on this. But why do you take that bridge moment as a critical moment, uh, to be distinctive in terms of your focus on it for a fight? That seems like something that's really important tactically.[00:10:00] Joel Huncar: What's gonna happen? So when you, when you look at statistics on, on violence, um, unlike the, uh, the, um, manipulated statistic we've lived with for so many years that 90% of fights go to the ground, um, there's validity to that, but when they did measure that, they, they, they were talking about arrest statistics and anything where you put somebody up against a wall, a car, um, whatever, was considered ground fighting. So they, they lumped all grappling into that. When you, when... According to, uh, one of my self-defense instructors, the common, um, study, or the latest studies have shown that 60% is standup clinching. Steve: Okay. Joel Huncar: So judo, um, aspects of Muay Thai, um, bridging becomes very important. And then if you add the idea that there might be [00:11:00] weapons involved, the ability to control limbs is paramount for survivability in a weapons assault. I'm not saying you're gonna be able to not get stabbed or slashed. I'm saying that minimizing damage comes from the ability to control limbs Right? So, uh, I mean, it's not a good scenario for anybody. If anybody thinks they have the answer to the knife assault, well, you better show it to me because I've never seen a magic answer to that, and it, and I've, I've trained knives for over three decades, um, and I don't have a good answer to that. I just have minimizing damage as best you can. Steve: Yeah. Yeah. So, so I wanted to be talking about two things now. That's what bridging says. We've got, we've got controlling limbs, which I love, uh, and I, I wanna return to that in a second. But I wanna go back to, to the point about the bridge, [00:12:00] which is, uh, I assume you mean where our arms in some way are gonna make contact with one another, right? Entanglement. Yeah. Joel Huncar: Entanglement. Steve: Some kind of entanglement, right? Yeah. So if, if... One of the things that we are always talking about in martial theory is being able to control the chaos, control the opponent, uh, make them feel more chaotic as we feel less chaotic, and also the idea of being able to sort of, um, predict the future by knowing what's gonna happen- Joel Huncar: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm ... Steve: next when the opponent might not. And I, I see this bridging thing as connected to that because- Joel Huncar: Oh, absolutely ... Steve: could you explain that more deeply as to how it plays into those kinds of factors? Joel Huncar: Well, when you atta- have attachment, and you train with attachment, and you train with attachment with aggression, you start to develop the ability to feel where the limbs are going. Now, it's not perfect. You know, it's not [00:13:00] perfect, and you don't wanna have too much confidence in it because you, you will, uh- Steve: Nothing's perfect ... Joel Huncar: end up... Nothing's perfect. Yeah. Nothing's perfect. But it helps with that, right? It helps with that. Um, you can, you can start with, um, oh- With people you know, it's, it, it becomes easier because you can predict them better. So you, it can be a trap as well because if you're, if you're doing it with people you know, same circle, "Oh, I know Gerald's gonna cut under here when I leave this open." But still, if you l- if you understand that somebody, if they see an opening, they probably, they might end up coming under here, you can predict s- with a higher percentage of ability. And I'm not saying you're g- they're gonna, they're gonna tr- trick you, so the more that you can trick your partners in training, the better you're preparing each other [00:14:00] for, uh, a, um, real conflict, I think. But, uh, it's, it's all theory, right? What, what was the name of your book again? Steve: Martial Theory. Joel Huncar: Yeah, that's all we have. Steve: Right. Joel Huncar: That's all we have, and we gotta do the best we can to supply our students with the best theories that we feel they need, we need to, uh, train, right? Steve: Yeah. Joel Huncar: And the, the shitty thing is, as we age, we, we end up losing some of the stuff that we had before. Like when I was in my 30s training Muay Thai, um, there was stuff I could do back then that I just can't do now. I'm 60, right? I turned 60 in January and I, I, I've spar- like, uh, I've boxed maybe twice, three times, like sparred, like, like contact [00:15:00] sparred since then because I have to limit the amount of head contact that I take. I have to only tr- spar with people I trust now. Like my whole training has, has changed. I, I can't step in with a, a unpredictable beginner and, and play around with them because my safety is, has become more of a focus as I've gotten older. I, my sh- if I grapple with somebody who isn't, uh, gonna respect my sh- shoulder impingements, my back problems, uh, I'm gonna get hurt, right? Yeah. So, and, and if I get hurt, it's so long to recover at this age. You know, there's... things change. Steve: Yeah, we don't bounce back like we used to anymore. No. I have to adjust my training as well. Uh, just- So Joel Huncar: my, my, my focus now becomes more on deceit, dece- like, uh, preemptive striking. Like, you know, I gotta be, I gotta [00:16:00] be as dirty as possible. I have to train as dirty as possible and, um, you know, if, if something is brought to me where I have to defend myself, um, I can't, I can't depend on the things I used to be able to depend on, even though that's kind of an illusion too. Steve: Yeah, sure. Joel Huncar: You know? Steve: Sure. So you talked about, um, you talked about controlling limbs of the opponent, and so we're in a way kind of minimizing their options. Yeah. And that's something that I'm always talking to my students about, is that any time that we can, uh, control any aspect of the opponent or the more aspects of the opponent we control, the closer we're moving to victory. Joel Huncar: But, but always remember too, right? Like, like when I've got my hands on somebody's limbs, I'm trapping them, but I'm trapping myself too because my hand is committed to that limb control. So, um, understand that you have to be [00:17:00] setting up something next because you don't wanna just end up in this, this grapple where he's gonna slip through. He's gonna, he's gonna escape. Steve: Yeah. Joel Huncar: Like people aren't stupid. Right. So, um, you're, you, you have to minimize the amount of time that you're putting into that, into an attack or into a counterattack. Right? Steve: Yeah. But so the, the, but the premise first is let's, let's take away from the opponent- Joel Huncar: Yeah ... Steve: some capacity of theirs. And I talk about this with my students that it might not only be trapping a limb, uh, an arm or it m- or a hand, it might also be just where we force the opponent's weight to shift back or, or to move in a certain direction. Joel Huncar: Their angle, their facing. Their facing. Right. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Take their facing away. And that's one thing like, uh, I really love about Filipino martial arts is it trains that a lot, right? It, it [00:18:00] trains, uh, putting you into a position of advantage and taking away their position of advantage, so they're always having to readjust themselves to you, and I think a good boxer does the same thing. Um, I was not a good boxer. I was not a good Nak muay. I would always come in like a bull, even though I'm only five foot eight. Like, what the hell was I thinking, right? So, so, um, you know, someone who's good at that will always be moving in a way that they've got the advantage or as, you know, that their opponent is always at, having to adjust themselves to where they're going, and you're always one step ahead when, when you are the, the higher, um, level fighter, right? So, so I mean, yeah, a lot of, a lot of that repositioning and forcing them out of position. Balint- that's, that's a really important premise of Balintawak is, is I'm like coming down center line, but they're, I'm pushing them offline, [00:19:00] right? So, so my, my, um, gun sight, which I tell my students is your belly button, um, is always on target and there's, I'm forcing them off, offline. Steve: That's funny that you use the s- the belly button as the gun sight. That, that's where you're, that's how you're articulating the direction of the bo- body. That's a really interesting way to frame it for people. Joel Huncar: I, I found it through teaching kids, right? So, so keep your, keep your gun sight on your opponent, force their gun sight off, off of you, right? And, uh, kids grasp that like that, right? And I do teach a, um... I, I'm not bl- uh, I'm not bladed. I teach a very aggressive style where all your weapons are at your opponent. Um, and that's just kind of, um, my [00:20:00] Uh, philosophy, right? Like, like I, I teach a very counter-aggressive style of, of fighting, I would say Steve: I teach something similar. We're always having our weapons facing the opponent. I always articulate it as the solar plexus sort of being the- Joel Huncar: Yeah ... Steve: the major point alignment, but I like the belly button is a great way to Joel Huncar: communicate it. Well, especially for kids, right? Steve: Yeah. Yeah. Joel Huncar: Yeah. They, they, they grasp it right away. Steve: So in terms of what you teach, which is, I, uh, it sounds to me like in, in your normal classes, it's some kind of fusion of the Filipino and the Muay Thai and some other things grappling that are in there. Um, what's the emphasis for you in... Let me, let me rephrase that. What would be something distinctive if I came to your class that I wouldn't get as much in somebody else's class? And I don't mean that, you know, that doesn't mean necessarily saying that your stuff's better, but we all, you know, some things focus on other more things than others, and I'm wondering what's kind of distinctive if I walked into your class and I said, "That's, [00:21:00] you know, that's an interesting thing that he's doing here. That's an interesting thing about his approach that I don't see as much in somebody else's style." Joel Huncar: That's hard to say. That's hard to say 'cause I've taken so much from other people, right? Uh, like nobody, nobody does this in isolation. I, I have so many teachers that have helped me along the ways, and I've taken a piece of each one of them, right? Like Ajarn Song, Louie Lindo, Ross Dormol, um, you know, Norm Stackhouse, Norman Swanico. Like, all these people have made so much of a difference in my journey, so I, I take a p- Oh, Paolo Pagal. I gotta mention him. But when Steve: it all blends in you and you're teaching something, there, uh, if I walked into your school versus the school next door, I would say, "Now, that's an interesting thing that Joel does here." Joel Huncar: I t- I, I'll tell you one thing I try to do. I try to simplify. I try to, I try to, um, push curriculum away. [00:22:00] That's, that's why De Campo is the only thing I teach purely. I, I don't teach Balintawak. Um, I do a large portion of Mati-Arnis. Um, well, I shouldn't say that. I teach... My, my Muay Thai program's strictly Muay Thai, right? Steve: So when you say you s- you simplify and you push curriculum away, help me understand what that means. Joel Huncar: I try not to have too much fine motor skills in my, in my teaching. And, and I mean, there is, there is. For sure there is. Like, I teach the flow drills. Um, I teach the some, some, some, like a, I use 10 c- or 10 or five count sombrero a lot. But when you break it down, roof block's sim- you know, a, a press A pass, you know? So each piece of that drill is actually quite a simple [00:23:00] movement. And then from that, from those drills, we'll maybe break the pattern or we'll add random strikes in there. So I roof block and he's expecting me to come back with an angle one, but instead I, I, I stab into his face or I roof block and I slash at his knees and, and we- we're starting to add other things because I saw, um, what was that guy's name? Um Pinnacle, Pinnacle Martial Arts. Um, oh, he's, he's a really good instructor, but watched one of his videos and I was like, "Oh yeah, I'm gonna add some of this to it." So, um, oh, why can't I think of his name? I should give him a shout-out because he doesn't know me, but I know his stuff, right? 'Cause I, he, he does, does a lot of videos on YouTube, and he shares a lot of knowledge, and I, I, I was like, "Okay, so we're gonna break the pattern. We're gonna add [00:24:00] some, some, uh, you know, strikes in here." So Pinnacle Martial Arts, if, if you're, if you're searching YouTube, look him up. Um, if I, if you can fi- oh, like why can't I think of his name? Anyway, he's a really good JKD guy who does, who does basically Filipino mar- like, he's JKD, but he really focuses on FMA a lot, and, and he, uh, has some re- great stuff that he's sharing for free out there. So go support him. Steve: Do you feel that, um, you know, there is this, there's sort of this, uh, notion among people who are for pragmatic self-defense that the fine motor motions don't work in martial arts, and I, I don't necessarily think that's... Joel Huncar: I don't think that's true. Steve: I don't think that's true, but I understand why we, some of the gross motions are gonna come out sometimes or why they require emphasis, especially earlier on in training. Joel Huncar: Yeah. Yeah, Steve: for sure. [00:25:00] Uh, no question about it. How do you balance that out, and do you feel that, um, how do you keep the, a, a sense of exploration of depth as you're focusing more on the sim- and simplifying at the same time? 'Cause I know you. I've, we've talked. You're a deep thinker about the martial arts, and you give it a great deal of thought, and your knowledge is really very deep, but how do you balance that depth when you're trying to simplify? 'Cause I know you don't wanna get bored, uh, on oversimplification, right? Joel Huncar: No, no, you don't, and, and, you know, uh If, it depends on what you're trying to get across. But if you look at fine motor skills and, and, uh, like I love joint locks, I love wrist locks, um, I love disarms. I train a lot of those. Those are all fine motor skills, right? Um, and they can work under, cer- certain ones can work under [00:26:00] pressure. I, I've seen it, you know? Any, any police officer who's, um, trained in aikido has made their joint locks work under pressure in handcuffing. Um, so would you consider that a fine motor skill? Steve: Uh, yeah, I think joint locks are getting pretty fine, but I, you know, it, there's always scales of how precise we're being- Yeah in the joint lock- Yeah ... and so on, right? Joel Huncar: I, I don't just throw the, I, I guess I don't throw the fine motor skills out, but I try not to focus too, too much on Like I try to simplify things so it, like, like we have one or two disarms that we work. We don't have a whole gamut. Um, you know, but yet we do teach disarms for every angle, but we've really focused on the sna- like the snake, the wrap. We really focus [00:27:00] on compression disarm, um, because those are ones that I've seen work under f- full fight aggression. So we, we focus a lot on the things that I've s- that work under full fight aggression, but we also have a deeper curriculum because, like you said, people get bored. Um, and people who've mastered those base skills need something higher for them to, um, work on. So for people who've been with me for a long time, they get a lot more. But when people start out, like you said, those, those gross motor skills are so important to, to, to push on them, to have them repeat. Um, and really I wanna approach my Filipino Martial Arts like a pugilist rather than, [00:28:00] um, a technique collector. So when, when I teach, when I teach Muay Thai, I, I really work on the basis, basics, right? Really hammer those home. And then once you have those mastered, you can, you can s- start tr- experimenting. I had one kid who saw a cartwheel kick and, um, he, uh, he was a good nak muay. Um, well, I shouldn't... He was a, he was a good kickboxer. And, uh He, he went to a competition, like a continuous sparring competition, and he, he landed one in competition. He lost the fight, but that wasn't what mattered to him. He was, he was like 13, 14 at the time, and, uh, he, he... 'Cause he just wanted-- He's like, "Joel, I just wanna, I just wanna land [00:29:00] this." And I'm like, "Yeah, man, you're here, you're here for you." Right? "You're here to, you're here to pl- you know, this is just for fun, man." So off he went, landed this cartwheel kick, and, uh, and he was so happy afterwards. Didn't care that he l- he, he lost the fight. Um, he fought well, and he managed to do what he, what he intended to do when he went to that competition. Steve: That's cool. Joel Huncar: You know? Yeah. Yeah, it was. Steve: That's cool. So that's- Earlier you referenced, um, the patterns, uh, you know, your sinawalis and so forth, some bradas, and, um, one of the things I talk about in martial theory is the idea that all fighting, all combat, all martial arts is, is patterns, uh, that... You know, I talk about chaos theory, which is really the idea that y- you, within chaos, we actually find patterns. We just sometimes don't recognize the patterns, and then that's where we feel chaos. And I, when I work with my students on similar drills, what I always [00:30:00] explain to them is that the, the value of the pattern is really also in breaking the pattern. Yes. When you break the pattern enough, then that also becomes a pattern, and soon all the broken, all the ways you can break the pattern are the pattern, and then there's no more- Let me- chaos anymore. What, what's your thinking on that? Joel Huncar: That's, that's interesting. The, the, the thing is, like, um, the chaos is, is also the emotion, right? Um, so- So these patterns like Sinawali, they give us, um, a way of training movement. I mean, that's, that's, that's what they give. And they also, um, you know, you start to recognize them in Parry Press, right? You start to recognize them in other, other things. But the, the, um, chaos [00:31:00] that you, you, you face is, isn't just like the chaos of somebody throwing strikes in a weird way. It's also that aggression. So how do you, how do you prepare a student for that? You know, that's, that's the hard-- I think the hard part of preparing them for chaos because unpredictability will come out in sparring. Unpredictability will come out in, in any kind of free fighting, right? So we spar almost every class, right? In Muay Thai, we spar every class. Every single class, they're sparring. Not everybody does it, and, uh, not everybody's invited to do it. If they're a beginner, um, no, right? So we do our class, and then people stay after. They, they spar. They, you know... So I think the, the unpredictability comes out in, i-in [00:32:00] fighting. You, you, you have to mimic a fight as closely as you can. And when we do our flow drills, breaking the pattern, you know, for, for somebody who's 65, they're not gonna spar. So when we play, we can play in our flow drills. We can give pressure. We can, we can, um, completely break the pattern, start doing things that are unpredictable, and we learn to, um, adapt to that energy or that unpredictability. But nothing's really that, that we do can really prepare us for the emotion of aggression and fear and, um, that sinking feeling you get when you're like, "Oh, fuck, this is real." How are you gonna prepare people for that? We, we can, we can do, um You know, emo- like, [00:33:00] uh, role-playing, you know, things like that. I did it, I did it with my combative students the other day. I hate doing it. I hate doing it because it hurts me to be that mean to people when I'm, when I'm the aggressive guy, when I'm the bad guy. Um, but, uh, disciplines that teach us to be good bad guys help with that. So Medusa, um, you look at Lee Morrison's Urban Combatives, you look at things like that, that type of training should happen You know, you should do some of that. Steve: Yeah. Joel Huncar: There used to be the model mugging thing with the bullet man, you know- Yeah. Yeah ... stuff like that. Steve: I've heard that. Yeah. Joel Huncar: We, we... I can't afford that kind of equipment, so we do it as best we can. Um, you know, uh, training to be preemptive in self-defense. I mean, a lot of what we do in martial arts isn't directly [00:34:00] applicable to street, like, you know, the, the street as they, they say. You know- Right what, I don't know what street that is, but it's not my street. My street's pretty polite. I go out and say hi to everybody. But, um, um, you know, but you, you could be in a bad situation. So I think this, uh, um, s- you know, what it, whether you call it stress inoculation, that kind of stuff is really important. You know, um, if you're a young guy, I highly recommend seeking out things like, um, uh, South Nark, Craig, uh, Douglas, do, do one of those workshops where they're, um, full-on wrestling, where they're full, like these, these things where they're just wrestling with weapons, working with multiple attackers in real aggress- realistic aggression. Um, you know, setting, setting up, um, [00:35:00] situations where you can look at, okay, you used too much force here, you're now... You, you became the bad guy. You... And, and setting up fear, putting real f- like, actual fear, 'cause there's pain, there's aggression, you're getting smashed. Um, for young people, I say do that. Do that. I can't do it. Steve: Before we continue, just a quick reminder that if you want to see our guests demonstrating the theory they discuss here on the podcast, then join us at Martial Theory University by going to martialtheory and the letter u.com, and make sure that you use the coupon code MTPODCAST for 20% off while it lasts. Also, if you're enjoying thinking theoretically here, or even if you just enjoy thinking at all, and you want to learn more about it for your career, as a parent, or just for your own development, then please visit my Substack, Perlman Actual Joel Huncar: Intelligence, for tips, [00:36:00] instruction, and discussion on critical thinking. Just go to Substack, Perlman Actual Intelligence. Steve: From what I've seen of, of a lot of what you've put out online, it seems to me like one of the ways that you're contending with that street emotion, that, that sinking feeling that is, is you're converting a lot of that back into aggression yourself. Joel Huncar: Yeah. Steve: Is that- Yeah ... an accurate statement for how- Yes. Yes ... you teach people to approach it? Joel Huncar: Yeah. Yeah, I don't wanna be, I don't wanna be second in a fight. So I don't, I don't wanna wait and see what happens because what happens could be something awful for me. So if, if, if my fence is up and they close distance, um, I tell them, "Look, man, just give me a little space. You're making me nervous. I just want a little bit of space," and they step forward on that, [00:37:00] that to me is, uh, them telling me what they're gonna do. So I like to train to be, uh, counterattacking before they attack, you know? But it's not always gonna work, and I'm not always gonna be able to do that. I might hesitate. I might freeze. Steve: Yeah. Joel Huncar: I, I don't know if I'm gonna be able to do that. Steve: Right. Right? Joel Huncar: That's where the, uh, scenario-based training comes in because by creating emotion, you might break that freeze, but you might not. Steve: Right. Joel Huncar: So you might have to recover. So if you don't have good pugilistic skills, whether it comes from karate, whether it comes from, um, boxing, Muay Thai, you know, Panantukan if you wanna go the Filipino route. Um, if you don't have those abi- that ability to overcome getting hit, if you've never been hit and then you're gonna defend yourself, it's, [00:38:00] uh, it's just not, not realistic. Steve: Right. Joel Huncar: But, uh, it's neither is, neither is preemptive striking if, if, if you wanna get right down to it. Nothing's perfect, right? I train preemptive striking out all the time, but I still... I, I froze, I froze one time when, when a guy was beating, beating up his girlfriend at a concert. This horrible, violent situation was unfolding in front of me, and my mind couldn't figure out what to do. It took my buddy stepping in first before I acted. So, you know, luckily there was someone who, whose freeze broke before mine because it could have gotten... It was, it was awful what we were witnessing. Um, so the freeze is real. Accept that. And, um, if you're out there and you've frozen in a bad situation, y- y- you... That is a survival technique that is ingrained in [00:39:00] us. Steve: Right. Joel Huncar: So it, it's not always the best one, neither is aggress- aggression always the best one. But I, um, I train to be aggressive, um, counter-aggressive And, uh, I try to train to put that, that fear into aggression. You're right. Steve: Yeah. Joel Huncar: And that's, that's one of the things we do in our combatives class. It's not perfect. Steve: No, nothing's perfect. Um, I, I, I'd love to ask a self-serving question, which is, uh, you read Martial Theory- Yeah and, uh, I'd love to know what's a particular insight that was meaningful to you that you took away from the text? Joel Huncar: I think what really stuck with me is things like positioning and, and I can't remember the wording you used, but the way you explained positioning and timing and how you can use position to create time- Steve: Hmm Joel Huncar: for [00:40:00] yourself. Steve: Right. Joel Huncar: Right? That kind of stuff s- is so true and so important, and such a big part of, uh, really good martial arts and combatives and combat sports, which all should come together- Steve: Yes ... Joel Huncar: in my opinion. Steve: Yeah. Joel Huncar: You know, um- Steve: Yeah, in the text when I say, I say, um, location before application, right? Is that- Yes one of the things you're referring to? Yes. Yeah. Joel Huncar: Yes. That means a lot to me. And, but sometimes, uh, w- in my training, you force, uh, uh, you're not always moving to a location. You could be forcing somebody else to move- Same thing ... to a location that- Yeah. Same thing. Just d- yes. Yeah, it's beautiful. Uh, and, and the, you know, the idea of writing a book that every style of martial artist can get something out of it, whether you're a wrestler, whe- I like, like, that's, that's what I found [00:41:00] super impressive about your book, by the way. And- Steve: Thank you so much ... Joel Huncar: and, uh, that's, that's why, why I... You're welcome. You're welcome. Thank you for writing it. Steve: It's- Oh, my, my, my pleasure. So I, as we wrap up, I have a couple questions. One is, um, as you're now a more senior teacher and, you know, you're certified in many different styles and it's very impressive, your, your pedigree- Joel Huncar: Yeah. It's, I, I am always, I'm always seeking out new things to do. Uh, now I, I don't think I'll ever get another certification unless it's Barasuite. Um, uh, I think, like, just... And the only reason I would get that is because I think it's such a unique, um, way of doing things. But anyway, go- sorry, I didn't mean to interrupt. Steve: No, it's okay. It's all good. So I'm curious, um, what's a message you would send out for other martial arts instructors? What's a, what's something about teaching that you've learned that you [00:42:00] wanna pass on to other instructors? Joel Huncar: Don't try to hold students to what you do. Um, when you talk to your students and you, and you, and lis- really listen to them and listen to what they want for their journey. And if you don't supply it, know the people in your community that do. Be friendly with everybody in your community. If Kyokushin would mo- be, be more what they're looking for, send them to Kyokushin. If I- Aikido would be more what they're looking for, send them to Aikido. You know, I send a lot of people to Brazilian jujitsu and boxing. Um, we have really good clubs in town, really good teachers. Uh, and I, I don't wanna try and be so commercial that I wanna keep everybody, 'cause that's bullshit. That's, that's... Not everybody is a right fit for, for you as a teacher- Steve: Yeah ... or me, right? That's beautiful. A true teacher cares about the student's journey and not just about what they're teaching, right? Yeah, [00:43:00] Joel Huncar: yeah. Steve: Yeah. That's Joel Huncar: And then- Well said ... um, yeah, and teach to your strengths, right? Uh, understand who you are as a teacher, you know, and teach to those strengths. Teach to your passion, and you will enjoy teaching your entire, your entire life Steve: Um, before I get to my last question, love to know, uh, what do you have coming up? Any seminars that you're doing or conducting or anything we should know about? Joel Huncar: Well, you know, I, th- this last, um, year, I, I've brought out, uh, Guy De Roo, Master Ziggy from, from Belgium here, here in Cranbrook, and I've really explored the, uh, the walking stick and the cane as a self-defense weapon. And I've-- um, in October, I'm going to Belgium. I'm kinda been honored to be able to present at the, uh, [00:44:00] European Gathering of the Canes and Sticks. Wow. And, uh, I'm kinda the headliner. I'm like, "Whoa, what's going on?" Um, you're never a hero in your own backyard, but, uh, um, I've, I've been really honored to go and, uh, present there. So that's, that's the most exciting thing I've done in my martial arts career, I think, you know? Um, um- Well, Steve: congratulations on that. I have no doubt- Thank you ... that it's well deserved. That's a great honor. Joel Huncar: Thank you, sir. And that's, you know, I, I guess, um, that's kinda where I'm going in my focus as an older martial artist, is more into cheating with weapon- using weapons and tools to help overcome physicality. Steve: And so my last question is, as martial artists around the world are listening to this podcast, what's a message you have for [00:45:00] everyone in the martial arts community? What's something the martial arts community needs to hear today? Joel Huncar: We're all in this together. None of us are anything. We're... You know, martial arts is not important, humanity is important. Our, our, our common good is important. Our self-esteem is important. Our students' self-esteem is important. Um, trophies, uh, you know, medals, um, another win, that doesn't matter. What matters is we are given, we're blessed to be able to stand in front of a group of people and express ourself. Let's make sure that while we're doing that, we don't lose sight of the fact that that is a community and we wanna keep it healthy. We want it to be, um, an interactive community where we're all equal. We don't stand at the top. [00:46:00] Nobody does. And that whole hierarchy, let's get rid of that bullshit. Let's, let's throw it away and really look at the common good for our, our students and ourselves Steve: That's a magnificent message and a great way to end this podcast. Joel, thank you so much. It's been such an honor to speak with you. Joel Huncar: Oh, right back at you. I really respect your journey and what you've done for the martial, uh, world and the community, and, uh, thank you so much. It's been an honor to talk to you as well. Steve: Thank you. Please share the work we're doing here with other martial artists, and of course, please subscribe and follow. To see instructors interviewed here demonstrate the theory they discuss, join us at Martial Theory University by going to martialtheoryu.com [https://martialtheoryu.com] and make sure you use the discount code MTPODCAST for 20% off while it lasts. [00:47:00] Finally, if you generally enjoy thinking and want to learn more about it, then please join my Substack, Perlman Actual Intelligence

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