Point of Learning

HOUSE OF DIGGS with MARION ORR

[https://images.squarespace-cdn.com/content/v1/5899ee3a1b10e35238fc13d9/e7618a62-ba0b-466b-b9d1-6fae1a6a39f1/Headshot_Marion_Orr_October+2024.jpg?format=1000w] Dr. Marion Orr is a political scientist and the inaugural Frederick Lippitt Professor of Public Policy at Brown University. His publications include House of Diggs: The Rise and Fall of America’s Most Consequential Black Congressman, Charles C. Diggs Jr., which we discuss today. He also wrote Black Social Capital: The Politics of School Reform in Baltimore; and The Color of School Reform: Race, Politics, and the Challenge of Urban Education. Dr. Orr was awarded the Biographers International Organization’s Francis “Frank” Rollin Fellowship for his work on Congressman Diggs. Orr’s book recounts Diggs’ early life as a son of the Great Migration, confronting racism as a young officer in the U.S. military, and his years as a successful funeral home director—“House of Diggs” was actually the name of the Detroit funeral home founded by his father, Charles Diggs, Sr. The book details Diggs’ election as the first Black Congressman to serve a majority-white district; his role at the trial of Emmett Till’s murderers; his friendship with Dr. King; his significant impact on federal civil rights policy, including desegregating commercial airlines and military bases; his role as founder of the Congressional Black Caucus; his fight against apartheid in South Africa; and his many other contributions as a public servant. If you, like me, knew nothing or next to nothing about Congressman Charles C. Diggs, Jr. before encountering Dr. Orr’s work, that may be partially because of the scandal that ended Diggs’ political career, which involved dogged targeting by another Congressman you’ve definitely heard of. We get into that too.  READ THE TRANSCRIPT [https://hornedconsulting.org/podcast-transcripts/059] If you’re as hungry as I am to be reminded about the role that Congress is supposed to play, this episode is for you! [https://images.squarespace-cdn.com/content/v1/5899ee3a1b10e35238fc13d9/1772141987263-Q4T1SCLZ6SQIHIL7TBQ7/Diggs+cover.png?format=1000w] As always, books ordered from my site benefit neither me nor Jeff Bezos in any way. I link to listings from bookshop.org, which helps to support independent booksellers. ORDER THE BOOK [https://bookshop.org/p/books/house-of-diggs-the-rise-and-fall-of-america-s-most-consequential-black-congressman-charles-c-diggs-jr-marion-orr/c54dd2077f906b26?ean=9781469689326&next=t] SHOW NOTES RELATED MATERIALS. My 2020 conversation with Dr. Errick L. Greene, Superintendent of Jackson (MS) Schools, is one of my all-time faves. To check it out, visit Leading with Mind and Heart: Errick L. Greene [https://hornedconsulting.org/pointoflearningpodcast/jps]. MUSIC. Point of Learning’s signature intro and outro are special instrumental versions of “Weight of the World” and “Villainous Thing” from Shayfer James’ 2011 album Counterfeit Arcade. All of Shayfer’s music is used by Point of Learning with the artist’s explicit permission. To find the latest tour and new release information for Shayfer James, visit his website [https://shayferjames.com/]. Special piano music for this episode was provided by the incomparable Gil Scott Chapman, who may be heard many summers as artist in residence in the Grand Hotel on Mackinac Island in Congressman Diggs’ home state of Michigan. You can read and hear more from him on his website [https://www.gilscottchapman.com/]. SPECIAL THANKS Many people support this podcast in one way or another. Some are able to contribute financially, which sustains this passion project to share great ideas about what and how and why we learn. To make an episode that sounds like this takes me and my staff of zero other people about 40 hours. Even a nominal gift helps with everything from audio software patches to my subscription to the video meeting platform that allows me to record interviews. There are two easy ways to donate! Learn more [https://hornedconsulting.org/support-point-of-learning] PoL Sponsors: Aaron Bartley, Gilberto Belaval, Mary Rappl Bellanti, Raj Bhandari, Melinda Bihn, Gretchen & David Brand, Jenni and Robbie Brand, Jake Brown, Heather Carson-Wake, Patty Cruice, Ryan Daly, David Davis, James Duggan, Dave Eisenberg, Phillip Ellis, Anna Falicov, Errick L. Greene, Jonathan Hiam, Gregory Horn, Janice & John & Ava & Brooke Horn, The Idari Collective, Greg Jackson, Kevin Johnson, Zack Kramer, Maureen and Alan Lantis, Tim Lear, Janet & Robert Lee, Kristen Lee, Robyn Lee, Tom Loughlin, David Lundy, Susan Lytle, Carol MacVey, Jacob Marley, Linda B. Matt, Ellen McLaughlin, J. W. Gregg Meister, Miriam Meister, Sarah & Peter Meister, Dwight Nolt, Julia Olff, Monica & Rowland Richards, Gail & Frank Richeson, Friends of Diana Rochford, Stacy Rodgers, Robert Rossiter, Elizabeth & Terry Rowlands, Paula A. Roy, Krista Rue, Dale Schmid, Brendan Sullivan, Emily Style, Marue Walizer, John B. Webb, Keith Zemsky, Vana Zervanos STAY IN TOUCH If you’re interested in the newsletter that will tell you whenever a new episode drops, it only takes a few seconds to sign up. JOIN THE PoL MAILING LIST [https://hornedconsulting.org/podcast-transcripts/newsletter]

VALENTINE FROM MINNEAPOLIS

[https://images.squarespace-cdn.com/content/v1/5899ee3a1b10e35238fc13d9/795aa69d-61c9-436c-84d8-b2ba8ee0305e/Renee+Good.png?format=1000w] Despite the title, this is not an episode for sensitive listeners, and it certainly isn’t for kids. I’ve never made an episode like this—but I’ve also never lived in a country like this. Last month, masked federal agents, deployed in the name of public safety, murdered Renee Good and Alex Pretti. State-sponsored killing is as old as states, but never in my lifetime did the U.S. President and other federal officials immediately flood the airwaves with lies and personal attacks on the victims, hinder local investigators, or launch a patently unwarranted investigation into a victim’s grieving spouse. I have not been able to travel to Minneapolis to stand in solidarity with its residents as they endure a siege by our federal government, but I can make a small contribution to the public record about these actions.  This episode features excerpts from my conversation with a friend in Minneapolis, recorded two days ago, on February 12th, the same day that Border Czar Tom Homan held a news conference announcing that the Trump Administration was drawing down its surge of agents to Minnesota. I should state that as of today, February 14th, local reports indicate that abductions by and other violent interactions with federal agents have not, in fact, abated, but unless you live in Minnesota, these updates may not make their way into your news feed. Minneapolis is just the most recent high-profile target on a list of cities that includes Los Angeles, Chicago, and Washington D.C. The reason I believe it’s important, unfortunately, for my education podcast to engage the topic of state-sponsored terror and present personal testimony about what it’s like to live through it is that sooner or later all of us will need to learn how to contend with a federal government that no longer pretends to the rule of law. We as citizens, especially those of us who enjoy the privilege of being U.S. citizens, must learn how we can plan together and work together to pull our country back from the brink.  [https://images.squarespace-cdn.com/content/v1/5899ee3a1b10e35238fc13d9/e1a8e5f1-fae3-4172-87b5-6862f5f6845d/Alex+Pretti.png?format=1000w] SHOW NOTES GETTING YOUR NEIGHBORHOOD READY. My guest mentioned Monarca [https://monarcamn.org/about], a coalition of thousands of workers, students, people of faith, parents, clergy, business owners, teachers, caregivers, and young people in Minnesota. They have trained over 20,000 everyday Minnesotans as neighborhood observers to help protect people’s rights where it matters most—on the ground, in communities. They provide a strong example for other municipalities to emulate. SUPPORT MINNESOTANS. From Minneapolis bookstore Tropes & Trifles [https://www.tropesandtrifles.com/]’ February newsletter: “Rent support remains our highest priority for donations, as the economic impact of the ICE occupation will continue to affect the most financially precarious first. In the store we're now directing all donations to the Powderhorn Park Neighborhood Association Rent Support Fund, which provides direct cash assistance to cost-burdened renters across Minneapolis.” To donate [https://www.ppna.org/donate], scroll down in the form to WOULD YOU LIKE TO SUPPORT A SPECIFIC INITIATIVE? and select RENTER SUPPORT FUND. Other rent relief funds accepting donations are accessible via Stand with Minnesota [https://www.standwithminnesota.com/], a “crowd-funded, volunteer-run project started by a lady from minneapolis stuck in texile, who had to channel her nervous energy somewhere.” [https://images.squarespace-cdn.com/content/v1/5899ee3a1b10e35238fc13d9/c90669a8-9684-48f2-be45-a06d0a286b63/ICE+screen+grab.png?format=1000w] SPECIAL THANKS Many people support this podcast in one way or another. Some are able to contribute financially, which sustains this passion project to share great ideas about what and how and why we learn. Learn more [https://hornedconsulting.org/support-point-of-learning] PoL Sponsors: Aaron Bartley, Gilberto Belaval, Mary Rappl Bellanti, Raj Bhandari, Melinda Bihn, Gretchen & David Brand, Jenni and Robbie Brand, Jake Brown, Heather Carson-Wake, Patty Cruice, Ryan Daly, David Davis, James Duggan, Dave Eisenberg, Phillip Ellis, Anna Falicov, Errick L. Greene, Jonathan Hiam, Gregory Horn, Janice & John & Ava & Brooke Horn, The Idari Collective, Greg Jackson, Kevin Johnson, Zack Kramer, Maureen and Alan Lantis, Tim Lear, Janet & Robert Lee, Kristen Lee, Robyn Lee, Tom Loughlin, David Lundy, Susan Lytle, Carol MacVey, Jacob Marley, Linda B. Matt, Ellen McLaughlin, J. W. Gregg Meister, Miriam Meister, Sarah & Peter Meister, Dwight Nolt, Julia Olff, Monica & Rowland Richards, Gail & Frank Richeson, Friends of Diana Rochford, Stacy Rodgers, Robert Rossiter, Elizabeth & Terry Rowlands, Paula A. Roy, Krista Rue, Dale Schmid, Brendan Sullivan, Emily Style, Marue Walizer, John B. Webb, Keith Zemsky, Vana Zervanos [https://images.squarespace-cdn.com/content/v1/5899ee3a1b10e35238fc13d9/257a8e80-53cf-4bd7-a46d-431be1e6f853/Valentine+Minneapolis+corrected.png?format=1000w] STAY IN TOUCH If you’re interested in the newsletter that will tell you whenever a new episode drops, it only takes a few seconds to sign up. JOIN THE PoL MAILING LIST [https://hornedconsulting.org/podcast-transcripts/newsletter]

COMMIT TO CONNECT: THE PROJECT ON CIVIC DIALOGUE

[https://images.squarespace-cdn.com/content/v1/5899ee3a1b10e35238fc13d9/6f3c4159-9341-46d7-ba5c-0209e5ebcc9a/SPA-hero-bldg2.jpg?format=1000w] Making this episode was a special treat, not least because it didn’t end up being anything like the episode I thought I’d be making! But it’s so much better … kind of like one of those conversations where you enter with a spirit of humility, listen generously, and allow your mind to be changed. As someone who specializes in helping people have better conversations across differences, I devoured Lara Hope Schwartz’s book Try to Love the Questions: From Debate to Dialogue in Classrooms and Life (Princeton UP, 2024). I reached out to Professor Schwartz, who teaches at American University, hoping we could talk about her excellent book and maybe learn some more about the program she founded and directs at AU, called the Project on Civic Dialogue. She accepted my invitation, but suggested that the best way to learn about the Project on Civic Dialogue would be to talk as well with some of the student facilitators who moderate conversations and lead other events that PCD sponsors at the university. I am delighted to present my conversation about PCD and its work, featuring current American University students Grace Manson and Arjun Mishra, alumna Khushi Ramnani, and Professor Schwartz. READ THE TRANSCRIPT [https://hornedconsulting.org/podcast-transcripts/057] > “Our commitment is to listen. To hold the flame of our voices in a shared space, and commit to connect and actively participate in a deliberate and intelligent manner.” — Khushi Ramnani '24 [https://images.squarespace-cdn.com/content/v1/5899ee3a1b10e35238fc13d9/04c9a10e-2ee0-48dd-890c-f24c2b9ec4de/T2LtQ.jpg?format=1000w] Professor Schwartz’s book addresses college students as its target readership, but anyone interested in better conversations will profit from this engaging read. Including worthwhile reflection and writing prompts with each chapter (and activities for professors in the appendix), the book is logically laid out, clearly written—and leavened with the same wit you hear in our podcast conversation. For example, my fave chapter epigraph is “‘An opinion is not an accomplishment.’ —ME. I SAID THAT.”) As always, books ordered from my site benefit neither me nor Jeff Bezos in any way. I link to listings from bookshop.org, which helps to support independent booksellers. ORDER THE BOOK [https://bookshop.org/p/books/try-to-love-the-questions-from-debate-to-dialogue-in-classrooms-and-life-lara-schwartz/cd18c73e465fefda?ean=9780691240008&next=t] SHOW NOTES ABOUT PROFESSOR SCHWARTZ. Lara Hope Schwartz is a lawyer and former civil rights strategist who teaches in the School of Public Affairs at American University in Washington, D.C., where she is founding director of the Project on Civic Dialogue. She co-authored How to College: What to Know Before You Go (And When You’re There) with Andrea Malkin Brenner (MacMillan, 2019). ABOUT PCD. To learn more about The Project on Civic Dialogue at American University, here’s their site [https://www.american.edu/spa/civic-dialogue/]. PRODUCTION SUPPORT. Special thanks to PCD Program Coordinator Rahul Kirkhope for his logistical support with this episode. RELATED MATERIALS. I’ve done about a dozen episodes on topics related to dialogue, so please browse the back catalog [https://hornedconsulting.org/pointoflearningpodcast] at whim! A recent fave of mine is The Certainty Trap with Ilana Redstone [https://hornedconsulting.org/pointoflearningpodcast/the-certainty-trap]. In this PCD conversation, I suggested that schools would be well-served to take up our relationship with our phones as a high-interest, nonpartisan topic. Here’s my op-ed about that [https://hornedconsulting.org/cellphone-ban-op-ed] from earlier this year. MUSIC. Point of Learning’s signature intro and outro are special instrumental versions of “Weight of the World” and “Villainous Thing” from Shayfer James’ 2011 album Counterfeit Arcade. This episode also features instrumental versions of “Learning to Be Lost” and “Devils and Rebels” (both including fiddle lines by a podcaster who may be typing this right now) from Shayfer’s 2023 album Shipwreck. All of Shayfer’s music is used by Point of Learning with the artist’s explicit permission. To find the latest tour and new release information for Shayfer James, visit his website [https://shayferjames.com/]. SPECIAL THANKS Many people support this podcast in one way or another. Some are able to contribute financially, which sustains this passion project to share great ideas about what and how and why we learn. To make an episode that sounds like this takes me and my staff of zero other people about 40 hours. Even a nominal gift helps with everything from audio software patches to buying my copy of Try to Love the Questions: From Debate to Dialogue in Classrooms and Life. There are two easy ways to donate! Learn more [https://hornedconsulting.org/support-point-of-learning] PoL Sponsors: Aaron Bartley, Gilberto Belaval, Mary Rappl Bellanti, Raj Bhandari, Melinda Bihn, Gretchen & David Brand, Jenni and Robbie Brand, Jake Brown, Heather Carson-Wake, Patty Cruice, Ryan Daly, David Davis, James Duggan, Dave Eisenberg, Phillip Ellis, Anna Falicov, Errick L. Greene, Jonathan Hiam, Gregory Horn, Janice & John & Ava & Brooke Horn, The Idari Collective, Greg Jackson, Kevin Johnson, Zack Kramer, Maureen and Alan Lantis, Tim Lear, Janet & Robert Lee, Kristen Lee, Robyn Lee, Tom Loughlin, Susan Lytle, Carol MacVey, Jacob Marley, Linda B. Matt, Ellen McLaughlin, J. W. Gregg Meister, Miriam Meister, Sarah & Peter Meister, Dwight Nolt, Julia Olff, Monica & Rowland Richards, Gail & Frank Richeson, Friends of Diana Rochford, Stacy Rodgers, Robert Rossiter, Elizabeth & Terry Rowlands, Paula A. Roy, Krista Rue, Dale Schmid, Brendan Sullivan, Emily Style, Marue Walizer, John B. Webb, Keith Zemsky, Vana Zervanos STAY IN TOUCH Here’s that newsletter link that Dr. Michelle Edwards mentioned! If you’re interested in the newsletter that will tell you whenever a new episode drops, it only takes a few seconds to sign up. JOIN THE PoL MAILING LIST [https://hornedconsulting.org/podcast-transcripts/newsletter]

DEEP READING with JUSTIN McDANIEL

[https://images.squarespace-cdn.com/content/v1/5899ee3a1b10e35238fc13d9/1759276458235-7HEHWW1WSGD54OFDJ1GH/justin-mcdaniel+ice+cream.png?format=1000w] Justin McDaniel and I discuss two of his unconventional courses at the University of Pennsylvania: “Existential Despair,” a literature class where students read entire books in single, seven-hour sessions without phones or note-taking to read for experience rather than information; and “Living Deliberately,” where students adopt monastic practices like silence and dietary restrictions to understand voluntary discipline. McDaniel is the Edmund J. and Louise W. Kahn Endowed Professor of the Humanities at Penn. Currently serving as chair of the Department of Religious Studies, McDaniel specializes in Buddhism and Southeast Asia. READ THE TRANSCRIPT [https://hornedconsulting.org/podcast-transcripts/056] SHOW NOTES To learn more about Justin McDaniel and his work, visit his website [https://rels.sas.upenn.edu/people/mcdaniel]. The excellent feature by Dave Zeitlin for The Pennsylvania Gazette (May/June 2025) on the two courses we focus on in this episode is linked here [https://thepenngazette.com/welcome-to-despair/]. MUSIC. Point of Learning’s signature intro and outro are special instrumental versions of “Weight of the World” and “Villainous Thing,” respectively, authorized by their creator, Shayfer James, from his 2011 album Counterfeit Arcade. To find the latest tour and new release information for Shayfer James, visit his website [https://shayferjames.com/]. This episode features additional tracks composed and performed by Rinde Eckert [https://www.rindeeckert.com/]. SPECIAL THANKS Many people support this podcast in one way or another. Some are able to contribute financially, which sustains this passion project to share great ideas about what and how and why we learn. To make an episode that sounds like this takes me and my staff of zero other people about 40 hours. Follow David’s advice in today’s patron break and consider a one-time or recurring donation, which helps keep the lights on! There are two easy ways to donate! LEARN MORE [https://hornedconsulting.org/support-point-of-learning] PoL Sponsors: Aaron Bartley, Gilberto Belaval, Mary Rappl Bellanti, Raj Bhandari, Melinda Bihn, Gretchen & David Brand, Jenni and Robbie Brand, Jake Brown, Heather Carson-Wake, Patty Cruice, Ryan Daly, David Davis, James Duggan, Dave Eisenberg, Phillip Ellis, Anna Falicov, Errick L. Greene, Krista Haley, Jonathan Hiam, Gregory Horn, Janice & John & Ava & Brooke Horn, The Idari Collective, Greg Jackson, Kevin Johnson, Zack Kramer, Maureen and Alan Lantis, Tim Lear, Janet & Robert Lee, Kristen Lee, Robyn Lee, Tom Loughlin, Susan Lytle, Carol MacVey, Jacob Marley, Linda B. Matt, Ellen McLaughlin, J. W. Gregg Meister, Miriam Meister, Sarah & Peter Meister, Dwight Nolt, Julia Olff, Monica & Rowland Richards, Gail & Frank Richeson, Friends of Diana Rochford, Stacy Rodgers, Robert Rossiter, Elizabeth & Terry Rowlands, Paula A. Roy, Dale Schmid, Brendan Sullivan, Emily Style, Marue Walizer, John B. Webb, Keith Zemsky, Vana Zervanos STAY IN TOUCH If you’re interested in the newsletter that will tell you whenever a new episode drops, it only takes a few seconds to sign up! JOIN THE PoL MAILING LIST [https://hornedconsulting.org/podcast-transcripts/newsletter]

HUMAN-CENTERED AI IN SCHOOLS with ERIC HUDSON

[https://images.squarespace-cdn.com/content/v1/5899ee3a1b10e35238fc13d9/be1d262d-2754-4693-b965-fa677770bb7f/Untitled+Project.jpg?format=1000w] Eric Hudson and I discuss the role of artificial intelligence (AI) in education, exploring how schools and educators can approach AI in a human-centered way. We talk about the misconceptions schools have about AI, the need to rethink traditional notions of "cheating" and academic integrity, the importance of active engagement with AI tools, and the need for comprehensive AI literacy education for both students and teachers. Eric Hudson is a facilitator and strategic advisor who supports schools in making sense of the changes brought about by emerging technologies like AI. He has extensive experience working with schools and learning organizations around the world, and he specializes in learner-centered assessment, human-centered leadership, and strategic program design. READ THE TRANSCRIPT [https://hornedconsulting.org/podcast-transcripts/055] SHOW NOTES To learn more about Eric Hudson and his work, visit his website [https://www.erichudson.co/]. The name of his Substack newsletter is Learning on Purpose [https://erichudson.substack.com/]. During our conversation, we referred to a framework for AI literacy by Digital Promise, linked here [https://digitalpromise.org/initiative/artificial-intelligence-in-education/ai-literacy/]. MUSIC. Point of Learning’s signature intro and outro are special instrumental versions of “Weight of the World” and “Villainous Thing,” respectively, authorized by their creator, Shayfer James, from his 2011 album Counterfeit Arcade. To find the latest tour and new release information for Shayfer James, visit his website [https://shayferjames.com/]. This episode features additional tracks by DJ Sluggy (aka Sluggz). SPECIAL ASSISTANTS. Shoutouts to Heidi (murf.ai) and Claude (anthropic.ai) for augmenting today’s production. See below. [https://images.squarespace-cdn.com/content/v1/5899ee3a1b10e35238fc13d9/9aaa8f2d-b0be-4410-94a7-4929af40b95c/Claude+questions.png?format=1000w] A screenshot of Peter’s interaction with Claude, a chatbot from anthropic. ai. Claude generated the response captured here in 2-3 seconds. (6/30/25) SPECIAL THANKS Many people support this podcast in one way or another. Some are able to contribute financially, which sustains this passion project to share great ideas about what and how and why we learn. To make an episode that sounds like this takes me and my staff of zero other people about 40 hours. Be like Heidi (except more human) in today’s patron break and consider a one-time or recurring donation, which helps keep the lights on! There are two easy ways to donate! Learn more [https://hornedconsulting.org/support-point-of-learning] PoL Sponsors: Aaron Bartley, Gilberto Belaval, Mary Rappl Bellanti, Raj Bhandari, Melinda Bihn, Gretchen & David Brand, Jenni and Robbie Brand, Jake Brown, Heather Carson-Wake, Patty Cruice, Ryan Daly, David Davis, James Duggan, Dave Eisenberg, Phillip Ellis, Anna Falicov, Errick L. Greene, Krista Haley, Jonathan Hiam, Gregory Horn, Janice & John & Ava & Brooke Horn, The Idari Collective, Greg Jackson, Kevin Johnson, Zack Kramer, Maureen and Alan Lantis, Tim Lear, Janet & Robert Lee, Kristen Lee, Robyn Lee, Tom Loughlin, Susan Lytle, Carol MacVey, Jacob Marley, Linda B. Matt, Ellen McLaughlin, J. W. Gregg Meister, Miriam Meister, Sarah & Peter Meister, Dwight Nolt, Julia Olff, Monica & Rowland Richards, Gail & Frank Richeson, Friends of Diana Rochford, Stacy Rodgers, Robert Rossiter, Elizabeth & Terry Rowlands, Paula A. Roy, Dale Schmid, Brendan Sullivan, Emily Style, Marue Walizer, John B. Webb, Keith Zemsky, Vana Zervanos STAY IN TOUCH If you’re interested in the newsletter that will tell you whenever a new episode drops, it only takes a few seconds to sign up! JOIN THE PoL MAILING LIST [https://hornedconsulting.org/podcast-transcripts/newsletter]