Complex Creatures

Three Revolutions, a Fourfold Crisis: Zachary Wagner on Men of Virtue, the Fruit of the Spirit, and the Aspirational Vision of Manhood

What if the crisis facing boys and men isn't a lack of rules, but a missing aspiration? A vision not just of what to avoid, but of who to become? In this episode of Complex Creatures, Rev. Dr. Jarrod Longbons sits down with author, ordained minister, and New Testament scholar Zachary Wagner ( Director of Programs at the Center for Pastor Theologians, DPhil graduate of the University of Oxford, and co-host of the Pastor Theologians Podcast) to talk about his forthcoming book Men of Virtue: How the Fruit of the Spirit Forms Male Character in the Modern World (Brazos Press, May 26, 2026), the follow-up to his 2023 Non-Toxic Masculinity: Recovering Healthy Male Sexuality (InterVarsity Press). Zach lays out a framework he calls three revolutions leading to a fourfold crisis: the Industrial Revolution, which untethered male embodiment from meaning-making; the Sexual Revolution, which reshaped gender roles and intimacy; and the ongoing Technological Revolution, which is accelerating the displacement faster than we can metabolize it. The result is a generation of boys and men casting around for something, anything, to fill the void: parasitic masculinity influencers, martial arts as identity, deaths of despair. What if the answer the Church has been holding all along is the fruit of the Spirit? Together, Jarrod and Zach explore: * Why "don't misbehave" is the lowest possible bar, and what an aspirational, virtue-rooted vision of manhood actually looks like * The legacy of Wild at Heart, purity culture, and Joshua Harris, the good, the bad, and the wreckage left behind * Richard Reeves's Of Boys and Men and why both left and right finally agree something is wrong * The fruit of the Spirit, love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, self-control — as a Christian alternative to neo-Stoic "bro-icism" * Why organized sports, martial arts, and even fraternities historically emerged as responses to industrial displacement * The theological scandal of male embodiment, and why disdain for our own bodies isn't piety, it's pathology * The three things boys and men need from older men: acceptance, aspiration, and delight , including the simple, unfashionable words "I like you." Zach's hope is straightforward but rare: a vision of masculinity that is distinctly Christian, biblically grounded, embodied, and aspirational, not a culture-war flag, not a list of prohibitions, but participation in the divine nature itself. #ComplexCreaturesPodcast #ZacharyWagner #MenOfVirtue #NonToxicMasculinity #BrazosPress #InterVarsityPress #FruitOfTheSpirit #ChristianMasculinity #BiblicalMasculinity #VirtueEthics #CenterForPastorTheologians #PastorTheologiansPodcast #JarrodLongbons #PeachtreeChristianChurch #RichardReeves #OfBoysAndMen #WildAtHeart #JohnEldredge #PurityCulture #MensMinistry #MaleFormation #SpiritualFormation #Discipleship #ChristianStoicism #FaithAndCulture #TheologyAndCulture #ChristianPodcast #SpiritualPracticesForTheCommonGood

Just Call It Virtue: Jarrod and Alan on Masculinity Beyond the Checklist

When you hear the word "masculinity," what's the first image that shows up — for better or worse? And what changes if the real answer has less to do with being a man and more to do with being good? In this episode of Complex Creatures, Rev. Dr. Jarrod Longbons steps out from behind his own show with producer Alan Barnes for a wide-ranging, unscripted conversation about masculinity — what we inherit, what we choose, and why the topic has become so hard to talk about. Together, Jarrod and Alan explore: * How a holiday spent with nephews — rock climbing, ropes courses, trips to the nail salon — got Jarrod thinking about what we actually tell boys about being a good man * Promise Keepers, Wild at Heart, and the cultural whiplash between "be a leader" and "be sensitive" * The manosphere — from the Tate brothers to Jordan Peterson — as "a very bad answer to a very good problem" * Why resentment is the engine drawing so many young men in, and how the economy and online dating feed it * The case against essentialism — why virtue (faith, hope, love, courage, prudence, temperance) belongs to everyone, expressed through each person's own temperament * Jarrod's "real hot take": that what young men need most is an older man to look at them and say, I see you, and you're okay * Alan's closing reflection on expressing who you are through the lens of virtue, responding instead of reacting, and learning to trust yourself It's not a checklist, and it's not the final word — but as Jarrod puts it, that's rather the point. We are complex creatures, and this is a conversation worth continuing. #ComplexCreaturesPodcast #Masculinity #Virtue #ChristianFormation #Discipleship #Mentorship #BoysAndMen #FaithAndCulture #SpiritualFormation #Fatherhood #ManosphereDiscourse #RootedAndRenewed #ChristianPodcast #TheologyAndLife #PeachtreeChristianChurch

Rooted but Not Stuck: Jarrod Longbons on Traditioned Innovation, the Life-Giving Kernel, and a Hundred Years of Peachtree

What does it mean to carry tradition without becoming a relic — in a world that's either obsessed with novelty or stuck in nostalgia? In this episode of Complex Creatures, the tables turn: Alan O.W. Barnes steps out from behind the scenes to host, putting Rev. Dr. Jarrod Longbons in the guest seat for a wide-ranging conversation about traditioned innovation — the language Jarrod borrows from theologian L. Gregory Jones and Andrew Hogue's Navigating the Future — and what it looks like to lead a 100-year-old congregation in Midtown Atlanta into its next century. Drawing on John Henry Newman's image of doctrine as a river, Robert Webber's Ancient-Future vision, and a memorable story about a 1980s church bus ministry, Jarrod unpacks the difference between the purpose of a tradition and the container it arrives in — and why mistaking one for the other is how communities end up worshipping at the feet of relics. Together, Alan and Jarrod explore: * Why tradition and innovation are a tension, not a conflict — and how Christianity itself is a traditioned innovation of Judaism * The "spirit and purpose versus container" framework, and how it changes everything from bus ministries to worship style * How Holy Eucharist shapes Peachtree's architecture, liturgy, and even its strategic plan — "everyone has a place, everyone is called, everyone is welcome" * The elders' prayer-card tradition, and what makes a small practice life-giving for decades * How to safeguard against idolatry of place and trend-chasing — and why most "next steps" in church growth are really keeping up with the Joneses * The cautionary tale of trying to out–North Point North Point * Lectio divina, holy reading of the Church Fathers, and why Augustine on Genesis still has something to say to us * Carey Nieuwhof's line that "churches in love with their mission will thrive; churches in love with their method will die" * What the latest Barna and Pew numbers reveal about Gen Z, young men, and the surprising rise of Latin Rite Catholic, Eastern Orthodox, and Pentecostal worship * Why high-demand, high-experience churches are growing — and what that says about what people are actually hungry for * The "manosphere" as a bad answer to a good question, and why men's ministry doesn't need to be complicated to matter * How Jonathan Haidt, The Anxious Generation, and a sober-from-network-news governor of Utah point toward spiritual practices for the common good * And one piece of fatherly advice for Jarrod's daughter Ruby — and a message in a time capsule for Peachtree Christian Church a hundred years from now Whether you lead a congregation, sit in a pew, or just wonder how anything good survives the relentless churn of culture, this episode is an invitation to find the kernel — the thing actually worth carrying forward — and to let the rest get dressed up however the moment requires. Hashtags: #ComplexCreaturesPodcast #JarrodLongbons #AlanOWBarnes #TraditionedInnovation #AncientFuture #PeachtreeChristianChurch #Midtown #AtlantaChurches #LGregoryJones #RobertWebber #JohnHenryNewman #HolyEucharist #LectioDivina #ChurchFathers #SpiritualFormation #GenZAndChurch #MensMinistry #JonathanHaidt #AnxiousGeneration #ChurchGrowth #FaithAndCulture #ChristianPodcast #SpiritualPracticesForTheCommonGood #RootedButNotStuck

The Slow Work of Pastoring: Dr. Steven Cone on Trading the Classroom for the Congregation

Theology lives differently in a pulpit than it does in a lecture hall. Dr. Steven Cone — author of An Ocean Vast of Blessing and Theology from the Great Tradition — joins Jarrod to talk about preaching the great tradition to a congregation, walking with people through beginning-of-life and end-of-life moments, and the slow, on-the-job work of becoming a pastor. A conversation about how the deep wells of Christian thought meet the daily work of ministry. #ComplexCreatures #PastorTheology #HigherEdInCrisis #LincolnChristianUniversity #RestorationMovement #PastoralMinistry #AcademicBurnout #CalledToPreach #FromProfessorToPastor #TheologyFromTheGreatTradition #ChurchOfChrist #FaithAndVocation #SeminaryLife #PastoralCare #ChristianLeadership

Rooted to Become: Dr. Alex Fogleman on Catechesis, Discipleship, and the Ancient Art of Making Christians

What if the church's discipleship problem isn't new — and the answer has been hiding in plain sight for two thousand years? In this episode of Complex Creatures, Rev. Dr. Jarrod Longbons sits down with theologian and educator Dr. Alex Fogleman — Associate Dean for Special Programs and Assistant Professor of Theology at Trinity Anglican Seminary, founding director of the Catechesis Institute, and director of the Catechesis Task Force for the Anglican Church in North America — to explore his new book Making Disciples: Catechesis in History, Theology, and Practice (Eerdmans, 2025). Catechesis — from the Greek katēcheō, meaning to instruct or resound — isn't just a category of religious education. It's a whole way of forming people into a way of life. Not just knowing, but becoming. And in a world where nominal Christianity is everywhere but deep formation is rare, Alex argues this ancient practice is exactly what the church needs to recover. Together, Jarrod and Alex explore: * Why catechesis is about becoming, not just knowing — and what we lose when we treat faith as information transfer * How secularized contexts (like Vancouver, BC, where only 2% attend church) are actually forcing the church back to something essential * What the early church got right about the "bridge" between pagan and Christian culture — and how it applies today * Why AI might be able to teach content, but will never be able to catechize * The hearth versus central air — why formation is always relational, never merely digital * What it would look like for every church to take catechesis as seriously as worship Alex's one-sentence definition of his own book says it all: catechesis is the basic but comprehensive instruction in what Christians believe, hope, and love. That phrase alone is worth the conversation. #ComplexCreaturesPodcast #AlexFogleman #MakingDisciples #Catechesis #SpiritualFormation #EarlyChurch #ChurchFathers #Discipleship #FaithAndLearning #TrinityAnglicanSeminary #ChristianPodcast #TheologyAndLife #RootedAndRenewed #AncientFaithNewLife #AnglicansOfInstagram