The Second Mountain - Why Success wasn't Enough with Neil Smith

Love, Fear and the Future of Leadership

What place does love have in leadership and organisations? Can love coexist with performance, accountability and business reality — or is it something modern workplaces have suppressed? In this profound and deeply human conversation, Greg Suart speaks with leadership consultant, coach and researcher Helena Clayton about her award-winning inquiry into “Leading with Love” and why conversations about love may be among the most important conversations we can now have. Helena Clayton is a leadership and organisational development consultant with more than 25 years’ experience across UK organisations including the UK Civil Service, Jaguar Land Rover, Ernst & Young and London Business School. Formerly a director at Roffey Park Institute, Helena’s research explores the role of love, fear, vulnerability and human connection in leadership and organisational life. Together, Greg and Helena explore: • Why love is universally recognised but culturally suppressed • The role of fear in organisational life • Love as a leadership practice rather than sentiment • Why vulnerability is often perceived as weakness • The tension between humanity and extractive business culture • Whether love may be fundamental to consciousness and reality itself • How organisations might become more human, connected and alive. This is not a sentimental conversation. It is a radical inquiry into the future of leadership, work and human flourishing. FOR FURTHER INFORMATION about Helena Clayton Her website: https://helenaclayton.co.uk 🔗 LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/helena-clayton-b245553/ SPONSORED BY: This Meta-Conscious Leaders podcast is sponsored by Ultimate Goal Ltd: Partners in Personal, Leadership & Business Growth, Developing Personal Mastery, Emotional Intelligence and Transcendent Leadership https://www.ultimategoal.co.uk ________________________________________🔑 Key Themes • Leadership and love • Fear in organisations • Psychological safety • Conscious leadership • Vulnerability and creativity • Organisational culture • Meta-consciousness • Human-centred business • Emotional intelligence • Spirituality and leadership ________________________________________ ⏱️ CHAPTERS 00:00 — When “love taps you on the shoulder” 00:41 — Introduction to Helena Clayton & the inquiry into love 02:21 — Why love in leadership was once taboo 04:10 — Personal development, healing & loveless workplaces 05:37 — Love as purpose, calling and shadow work 07:16 — “We are beings of love” & the state of the world 09:14 — What does “love” actually mean in leadership? 10:35 — The five forms of love identified in Helena’s research 13:38 — Vulnerability, creativity & “Acts of Love for Tough Times” 15:00 — Self-love, radical acceptance & loving kindness practice 17:34 — Love as a verb, presence and radiance 20:44 — Love as a wide-angled lens 21:16 — Is love the fabric of reality? 23:16 — Why love matters in organisations 25:05 — The Roffey Park research: 90% say love matters 27:53 — The business case for love 30:55 — What does a loving organisation look like? 33:06 — What creates unloving organisations? 36:10 — Love, capitalism & cultural suppression 38:31 — Why love threatens organisational norms 40:30 — Love, trauma & healing in organisations 41:25 — Emotional intelligence, empathy & masculinity 42:58 — Fear as the “water table” of organisations 44:12 — Fear, separation & consciousness 45:21 — “Love is universally recognised but culturally suppressed” 46:23 — Helena’s simple daily practice: “Is this loving?” 46:52 — Where to find Helena Clayton 47:40 — Greg’s reflections & closing thoughts

Leadership at the Bow Wave of Evolution with Peter Merry (#33)

Peter Merry on Consciousness, Emergence & the Future of Leadership. What if leadership is evolving in lock step with humanity?In this fascinating and wide-ranging conversation, Peter Merry joins Meta-Conscious Leaders to explore the emerging frontier of leadership, consciousness, systems thinking, and human evolution. Peter is a futures thinker, systems innovator, author of Evolutionary Leadership, co-founder of Wyrd Technologies, and founder of the Science & Consciousness Conference. Together with Greg Suart they explore why today’s leadership challenges are not merely technical, but developmental - and why the future may belong to leaders capable of integrating rational intelligence with intuition, presence, coherence, and deeper awareness. Covering: • The evolution of human consciousness and leadership • Spiral Dynamics and developmental psychology • Measurable coherence in groups • Technologies designed to detect the effects of consciousness itself Peter also shares insights into: • Synchronicity and emergence, • The breakdown and breakthrough of our current systems, • The rise of “whole performers” over “high performers”, • How future leadership may increasingly involve hosting the conditions for collective intelligence and emergence. Peter also talks about his extraordinary work with: • Wyrd Lights, Wyrdoscope • The legacy of the Princeton Engineering Anomalies Research (PEAR) Lab, • Experiments suggesting that human consciousness measurably affects random systems and group coherence. This is a profound and yet deeply scientific exploration of: leadership, consciousness, evolution, interconnectedness, and the future of humanity itself. _______________________________________ For more information about Peter Merry He is the author of: Evolutionary Leadership; Leading from the Field; Why Work? (links below) Peter is also: • Co-founder & CEO of Wyrd Technologies • Co-founder of the Science & Consciousness Conference • A long-time contributor to Ubiquity University ________________________________________ Links Links🌐 Peter Merry: https://petermerry.org/ [https://www.youtube.com/redirect?event=video_description&redir_token=QUFFLUhqbGxYQzZpVHRpNk8xMHhsMXpxQV9rNnphMVpvd3xBQ3Jtc0ttdGZBZkdub0ZseXpaSUlGNWZveEdIcGJ4UHBwMGc0dTdpbk9TYzVJeEhaWEoxcDQ0M1B6RUNYQ1RNbl9MZi1VYWdCcHN2S29OTWNBdGhwczBnZlpBemRoNUlhTlRFM0RHbnRfbzhlY19TQmhhX3B2bw&q=https%3A%2F%2Fpetermerry.org%2F&v=Ve8V5vzv5bs] 🌐 Book: Evolutionary Leaders: https://petermerry.org/evolutionary-l... [https://www.youtube.com/redirect?event=video_description&redir_token=QUFFLUhqbEFyYzJ5ZzlDTmxHY21JcmtQYWhmUUQwUkFpQXxBQ3Jtc0ttMnNOQXRJVEZ1Z1F0UndZanRrVUpfclUta0ZpaUlFNXRyQVVwMHg0cnNCYTFTS2F6Y1lXWU5jUHJNSWFoX2p4V0R1YXVmNEI2R28waVd6Y0NNMlhVUkRmY2h3UXE3YnRVV2Zzdk5OQXlVdjFTM1h5RQ&q=https%3A%2F%2Fpetermerry.org%2Fevolutionary-leadership%2F&v=Ve8V5vzv5bs] 🌐 Wyrd Technologies: https://gowyrd.org/tech/ [https://www.youtube.com/redirect?event=video_description&redir_token=QUFFLUhqbl95VGJkYnUxbUQ4MW5uNUhFOUZwX2x5b3pld3xBQ3Jtc0tuRzJnanpOeFZPNTE3Z3dRMVZZSXNUVUh6blJQa2lrTUFXVTFGcEJmaEp3S0RldTNRZ09tZGZPSE1GMVFHXzFmNHZQT1YwMVV1eUhDYkp1SDhUS01URXE4aE1IRjdkZ3lDcEFKMEhEdkVTbmhGd2lqTQ&q=https%3A%2F%2Fgowyrd.org%2Ftech%2F&v=Ve8V5vzv5bs] ubiquity 🌐 Ubiquity University: https://www.ubiquityuniversity.org/ [https://www.youtube.com/redirect?event=video_description&redir_token=QUFFLUhqbXgxdjgxUmZPcTV2eElYaWJmZ0VMOTR4Zk1Cd3xBQ3Jtc0tsY25JdzBKR2ttUEVjRTZEUG1vOEFUSXQxZGxCN2w1UHc3SFl2eU5JUjU0T1Y3ak05WWxWdkxTajg0VlNKOGtZUEhyWXd1a01yTmtNTEg2MGlqNTZkdGx0RzRXTTJOQ3RUUWozYjVxVldraFJsaGhZMA&q=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.ubiquityuniversity.org%2F&v=Ve8V5vzv5bs] 🌐 Science and Consciousness Conference: https://broughtonsanctuary.co.uk/retr... [https://www.youtube.com/redirect?event=video_description&redir_token=QUFFLUhqa0JURk9iVWc0QnZEbmNpckhOcTVrSFFrSWJUQXxBQ3Jtc0tuNTFXSGE1M0JaeGlqT2JNYUdqcnBpSFJ4SzhsZVhRb0U5WnR1ZTQzWFh3YzljaUJ4TjhwT2oweDd4RlpaUXQ2ZGlJYTlMNVJFX2picGhzR3ZCWHpPdDd1di02ZENzUEN4MTYtRllWem41LXVIRVBQSQ&q=https%3A%2F%2Fbroughtonsanctuary.co.uk%2Fretreat%2Fscience-and-consciousness-2026-wyrd-psi%2F&v=Ve8V5vzv5bs] ________________________________________ Key Takeaways • Leadership evolves as human consciousness evolves • The future demands leaders who can hold complexity, paradox, and uncertainty • Rational intelligence alone is no longer sufficient • Presence, intuition, and coherence are increasingly essential leadership capacities • Younger generations are rapidly moving beyond purely profit-driven organisational models • Consciousness may not merely be subjective - it may have measurable effects in systems and groups • The future of leadership may be less about control and more about creating conditions for emergence ________________________________________ Chapters 00:00 – Emergence, consciousness & nonlinear change 02:17 – Peter Merry’s background & entrepreneurial journey 06:41 – Why Evolutionary Leadership matters now 08:58 – Humanity at a nonlinear tipping point 15:59 – Spiral Dynamics & the evolution of leadership 27:43 – Whole Performers vs High Performers 31:02 – Characteristics of elevated leadership consciousness 36:59 – Wyrd Technologies & measurable coherence 40:44 – PEAR Lab & consciousness research 49:20 – Group coherence, emergence & the Wyrd Light 56:21 – The future applications of consciousness technology 58:34 – Presence, mindfulness & inner development 01:00:26 – Science & Consciousness Conference 01:03:13 – Peter’s advice for leaders under pressure 01:05:10 – Final reflections & closing thoughts

Zen and the Art of Leadership with Zen Master Roshido (#32)

In this powerful Meta-Conscious Leaders podcast Zen Master Roshido (Juergen Wollborn) shares with Greg Suart a rare journey: from landscape architect and founder of a multi-million Euro business to Zen Master – integrating deep spiritual awakening with real-world business leadership. From a childhood moment of awe in the forest to decades of disciplined Zen practice, Jürgen reveals how inner stillness became the foundation for outer success — and ultimately, conscious exit. This is not a story about escaping business. It’s about transforming how we show up within it. In a world of rising pressure, noise, and distraction, Jürgen offers a radically different path: 👉 Lead from presence, not pressure 👉 Build people, not just profit 👉 Act from being, not constant doing This is leadership for the next era. FOR FURTHER INFORMATION Juergen Roshido Wollborn: https://roshido.org/ https://www.wollborn.com/ On LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/juergen-roshido-wollborn/ SPONSORED BY: This Meta-Conscious Leaders podcast is sponsored by Ultimate Goal Ltd: Partners in Personal, Leadership & Business Growth, Developing Personal Mastery, Emotional Intelligence and Transcendent Leadership https://www.ultimategoal.co.uk ______________________________________⚡ KEY TAKEAWAYS • True leadership begins with inner development, not external control • Meditation builds focus, resilience, and the ability to move through discomfort • Conscious businesses invest in people as the real capital • Presence can be embedded into physical environments, culture, and decision-making • Growth is not just professional — it is deeply personal and human • “Doing” without “being” leads to burnout and fragmentation • The future of leadership is integration — not separation — of inner and outer worlds • Stillness is not passive — it is the source of clarity and power • Pressure in the world is increasing — and so is the need for consciousness • Leadership is evolving from control → awareness → creation ________________________________________⏱️ CHAPTERS (approximate timings) 00:00 – Introduction: Business Meets Consciousness 02:00 – A Childhood Awakening in Nature 05:00 – Discovering Zen & Early Training 09:00 – Building a Business Alongside Spiritual Practice 13:00 – From Employee to Entrepreneur 30:00 – Scaling the Business & Finding a Mentor 34:00 – Meditation as a Leadership Advantage 38:00 – People as the True Capital 44:00 – Designing Zen Spaces & Healing Environments 49:00 – The Decision to Sell the Business 52:00 – What Zen Really Is (Beyond Religion) 01:08:00 – Awakening & States of Consciousness 01:20:00 – Identity, Ego & Seeing Through the Illusion 01:25:00 – The Pressure of Modern Life 01:27:00 – Doing vs Being in Leadership 01:32:00 – The Role of Leaders in Today’s World

My Life is NOT ABOUT ME! with Duro Oye (#31)

What does it truly mean to lead in a world that feels increasingly fragmented, uncertain, and in flux? In this episode of Meta-Conscious Leaders, Greg speaks with Duro Oye—founder of 20/20 Levels—a pioneering organisation that has empowered thousands of young people to unlock their potential and step into meaningful futures. But this conversation goes far beyond youth development. Duro works at the sharp edge of society, where systemic challenges meet lived experience. And what he reveals is both confronting and deeply hopeful: the greatest gap in society is not one of skill—but of self-awareness. From his early life growing up on a council estate, to a profound journey of identity, faith, and purpose, Duro shares how leadership begins not with what we do—but with who we are. His work challenges the assumptions we hold about young people, opportunity, and the structures that shape our lives. Together, we explore a world in transition—one that may feel like breakdown, but could equally be an invitation to radical change. What if the systems we’ve built are no longer fit for purpose? What if leadership itself must evolve? This is a conversation about identity, consciousness, business, and society—but above all, it is about contribution. Because as Duro reminds us: “My life is not solely about me… but about the impact I leave on the world.” Key Takeaways • The greatest gap in society is not skill, but self-awareness • Leadership begins with Being, not Doing • Identity is the foundation of purpose and meaningful action • Many systems were built without developing the people within them • We are living in a time that demands choice, courage, and clarity of belief • Radical change requires questioning everything we assume to be true • Young people don’t lack talent—they lack access and opportunity • Low expectation culture is one of the most damaging societal forces • Business must evolve from profit-only to purpose-driven impact • The future is built when wisdom (elders) meets energy (youth) • Intergenerational collaboration is a massive, underutilised opportunity • True leadership is selfless, empathetic, and service-oriented ⏱️ Chapter Breakdown (Approximate Timings) 00:00 — Opening & Introduction 02:20 — Early Life & Identity Formation 05:00 — Faith, Belief & Personal Purpose 6:30 — Humanity at a Crossroads: Crisis or Awakening? 11:30 — Radical Change: Rethinking Everything 14:30 — Education System: Fit for Purpose? 17:30 — Opportunity vs Talent: The Real Gap 20:00 — Self-Awareness & Identity as Foundations 24:00 — Purpose, Legacy & Generational Responsibility 29:00 — Wealth, Power & Intergenerational Imbalance 34:00 — Consciousness Shift: Who Must We Become? 38:00 — Eldership & Youthship: Building the Future Together 42:30 — Business, Purpose & Leadership Responsibility 47:00 — Empathy & the Evolution of Leadership 50:00 — Engaging the Next Generation (20/20 Levels) 53:00 — Closing Reflections

The Second Mountain - Why Success wasn't Enough with Neil Smith

In this episode of Meta-Conscious Leaders, Neil Smith shares with Greg Suart a powerful story of what happens when outward success stops being enough. After building a highly successful career in television with Betty TV and Fremantle, including titles such as The Undateables, Bear Grylls Mission Survive, The Apprentice, Grand Designs and many more, Neil found himself asking deeper questions — about resilience, purpose and what it truly means to live well. Beneath the energy and achievement of the media world, there was a growing realisation: success alone does not equip us for the psychological demands of modern life. What followed was a journey inward. Through meditation, breathwork and deep personal exploration, Neil began to understand something both ancient and urgent — that the mind, like the body, can be trained. That insight became the foundation of Mettle,a mental fitness platform designed specifically to help men build resilience, regulate stress and develop inner strength. This conversation explores the tension between achievementand fulfilment, the hidden cost of high performance, and the emerging role of business as a vehicle not just for profit, but for human development. At its heart, this is a story about the second mountain — and what we find when we start to climb it. FOR MORE INFORMATION ON NEIL AND HIS WORK: Mettle – The Toolkit for Men’s Minds: https://bemettle.com/ [https://bemettle.com/] LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/neil-s-smith/ [https://www.linkedin.com/in/neil-s-smith/] Contact:  info@BeMettle.com [info@BeMettle.com] SPONSORED BY: This Meta-Conscious Leaders podcast issponsored by Ultimate Goal Ltd: Partners in Personal, Leadership & Business Growth, Developing Personal Mastery, Emotional Intelligence and Transcendent Leadership https://www.ultimategoal.co.uk KEY TAKEAWAYS • Success does not automatically lead to fulfilment — many high performers reach a point where deeper meaning is required • Mental health for men needs reframing — “mental fitness” is more accessible and actionable • The mind can be trained through simple, repeatable practices such as breathwork and meditation • High-performance environments often mask stress, burnout and emotional suppression • Inner work is not separate from leadership — it fundamentally changes how we lead and relate • The future of business is shifting toward purpose, impact and human development • Men are facing a growing crisis of meaning, identity and emotional expression • Resilience is not innate — it is a trainable capability ________________________________________ CHAPTERS 00:00 — Introduction: From Television to Transformation: Neil’s journey from media success to inner exploration 04:30 — Life at the Top of Television: Building Betty TV and the reality behind success 10:15 — When Success Isn’t Enough: The early signs of deeper questioning 16:40 — The Inner Search Begins: Meditation, breathwork and exploring the mind 24:10 — The Cost of High Performance: Stress, pressure and what men don’t talk about 31:25 — The Moment of Realisation: Understanding that the mind can be trained 38:50 — Leaving the Old World Behind: The decision to step away from television 45:10 — Founding Mettle: A new mission: mental fitness for men 52:30 — Why Men Are Struggling: The deeper societal and psychological crisis 59:40 — Rethinking Business and Purpose: Profit, impact and the future of leadership 1:06:00 — The Second Mountain: What life is really asking of us 1:10:30 — Closing Reflections: What Mettle means today