NeLI Pod

NeLI POD Season 2: Ep. 10 with Dean Lumen Mulligan

Episode Overview In this wide‑ranging and energizing conversation, Dean Lou Mulligan joins hosts Daniel Gold and Brandon Mack to explore the evolving landscape of legal education, the role of technology in modern practice, and the values that must anchor the next generation of attorneys. Drawing from a career that spans clerking on the Tenth Circuit, briefing U.S. Supreme Court cases, leading major MDLs, and now steering UMKC Law, Dean Mulligan offers a candid look at how law schools are adapting to e‑discovery, AI, and shifting professional expectations. The episode examines why e‑discovery education remains uneven across the country, how AI is reshaping both pedagogy and access to justice, and why discernment, compassion, and professionalism remain irreplaceable—even in an era of rapid automation. Throughout, Dean Mulligan emphasizes the mission‑driven nature of today’s students and the profound responsibility legal educators share in preparing them for a profession undergoing historic transformation. * E‑discovery is moving from niche to core: Stronger law schools increasingly treat e‑discovery as part of the essential civil‑litigation track, though national adoption remains “uneven and evolving” . * AI is transforming legal education and access to justice: UMKC now offers 28 courses with meaningful AI components and is building tools for pro se litigants, including eviction and expungement assistance. * Human judgment remains the lawyer’s irreplaceable value: Even as AI accelerates research, lawyers must still “read the statute… read the relevant cases… [and] bring judgment, professionalism, compassion” . * Integrate AI responsibly: Use AI for efficiency, but always verify primary sources, Shepardize, and apply legal judgment before relying on outputs. * Expand access to justice: Consider how AI tools can help underserved populations navigate routine legal processes. * Advise students and junior attorneys intentionally: Tailor training to their intended practice areas—litigation, transactional, regulatory—rather than assuming a one‑size‑fits‑all technology curriculum. 00:00 – Welcome & Episode Introduction01:30 – UMKC Law’s Partnership with NELI02:37 – Dean Mulligan’s Personal and Professional Journey04:10 – From Clerkships to Academia to Deanship05:14 – The Purpose and Impact of Legal Education07:25 – How Law Schools Teach (or Don’t Teach) e‑Discovery08:15 – National Landscape: Uneven but Evolving09:13 – E‑Discovery as Core Litigation Curriculum10:30 – Teaching Technology Tools in Law School11:18 – Competency, Professional Identity & the ABA’s Role14:01 – Why Not All Students Need Deep E‑Discovery Training16:11 – Advising Students Toward Their Career Paths17:12 – AI’s Growing Role in Legal Education18:33 – National Trends: Courses, Credentials & Equity19:35 – UMKC’s 28 AI‑Integrated Courses20:33 – AI in Clinics & Experiential Learning21:23 – Challenges of Curriculum Agility22:16 – CLE Programming & AI Weekends23:04 – Providing Every Student a Legal AI Tool23:53 – AI Tools for Pro Se Litigants (Eviction & Expungement)24:42 – AI as an Equity Engine25:31 – Cognitive Skills, Research Habits & AI Limitations28:20 – Teaching Students to Verify AI Outputs30:03 – AI, Billing Models & the Future of Legal Work32:34 – AI as Market Expansion for Legal Services34:27 – Access to Justice & Strengthening Rule of Law35:36 – What Excites Dean Mulligan About the Next Generation38:10 – The Enduring Importance of Judgment & Compassion39:40 – AI as the Great Equalizer in Legal Access41:21 – Law as a Human Service Profession43:24 – Closing Reflections & Invitation to NELI Conference Compelling Quote “At the end of the day, law is a human profession… providing services to humans. And all those folks have ends and have value and have children and wants and dreams.” — Dean Lou Mulligan

NeLI POD Season 2: Ep. 9 with Jonah Perling

Guest: Professor Jonah Peretti Legal Writing Professor & Ethics Scholar, Georgetown LawHost of The Howard Lawyer podcast Professor Jonah Peretti joins Daniel and Brandon for a wide‑ranging conversation on how generative AI is reshaping legal practice, legal education, and the economics of the profession. Drawing on his background as a litigator, clerk, and scholar, Peretti argues that AI is not a revolution but the latest step in a long line of technological shifts. He explains why the billable hour is unlikely to disappear, how confidentiality has evolved into a duty of security, and why critical thinking—not drafting—is the lawyer’s true competitive advantage. * AI is evolutionary, not exceptional. Past predictions about technology killing the billable hour or transforming lawyering never fully materialized; AI is another turn of the wheel. * The billable hour will adapt. Through his CHARGE equation, Peretti shows that reduced hours don’t doom the model—rates, reductions, and expenses also shape compensation. * Critical thinking and security define modern lawyering. AI handles routine tasks; lawyers must excel at judgment, empathy, and safeguarding client data. * Redesign assessments and training to measure comprehension and critique, not tasks AI can perform. * Treat confidentiality as a duty of security, requiring ongoing cybersecurity literacy. * Build pricing narratives that explain how AI‑enhanced work delivers concentrated value. * Invest in human‑centric skills—judgment, empathy, strategic thinking. * Prepare for structural shifts as historical billing data becomes less predictive. Chapters & Timecodes 00:00 – Introduction & Guest Welcome 03:15 – AI as the Next Turn of the Wheel 06:45 – Confidentiality Becomes Security 08:30 – How AI Is Changing Legal Education 12:20 – Historical Parallels in Tech Adoption 15:45 – The Assessment Challenge 18:10 – Are We Losing Core Skills? 22:00 – The CHARGE Equation & Billable Hour Survival 26:30 – Challenging the AI Efficiency Narrative 30:15 – Why AFAs Haven’t Taken Over 34:00 – The Real Threat: Devaluation of Legal Work 38:45 – Critical Thinking as the Human Advantage 42:30 – Obsolescence of Historical Billing Data 45:00 – How Legal Practice Evolves Over Decades 48:30 – Optimism About the Profession’s Future 51:00 – Closing Remarks “The real danger isn’t efficiency—it’s clients deciding your work is no longer valuable.”

NeLI POD Season 2: Ep. 8 with Mike Gaudet

Guest: Mike Gaudet Senior Managing Director, Digital Investigations & eDiscovery, JS Held Mike Gaudet joins Daniel and Brandon to discuss how modern investigations are being reshaped by massive data growth, mobile devices, and the rapid rise of AI. With 20+ years of experience and a computer science background, Mike explains why today’s matters require both technical depth and cross‑functional collaboration. He also shares how natural language search, RAG databases, and GenAI‑driven triage are transforming early case assessment and dramatically reducing costs. * Data sources have exploded. Companies may have hundreds of thousands of data sources; a single phone can contain 100+ apps and terabytes of data. * AI is a force multiplier. Treat AI like a junior associate—give it context, supervision, and case‑specific grounding through RAG databases. * Cross‑functional teams win. Combining eDiscovery, forensics, fraud analytics, and industry expertise produces faster, more complete investigations. * Bring technical experts into interviews early to identify all data sources, including shadow IT. * Preserve broadly, then use AI‑driven triage to determine which custodians actually matter. * Triage mobile data before loading full device images into review platforms. * Adopt natural language search and RAG‑based workflows for early case assessment. * Maintain a duty to supervise AI outputs just as you would a junior attorney. Chapters & Timecodes 00:00 – Introduction 01:15 – Meet Mike Gaudet 02:30 – From IBM to eDiscovery 05:45 – Learning the Legal World 07:00 – The Data Explosion (500,000+ sources) 09:30 – Mobile Devices Become Key Evidence 11:00 – Structured Data & Fraud Investigations 13:15 – Legacy Systems & Historical Data 14:30 – Shadow IT & Work‑From‑Home Challenges 16:45 – GPT’s Leap & AI’s Role in eDiscovery 18:30 – Duty to Supervise AI 20:00 – Mobile Collection Strategies & Privacy 22:00 – SEC Off‑Channel Communications 24:00 – Professional Services vs. Legacy Vendors 26:00 – GenAI for Cost Reduction (Custodian Reduction Example) 28:00 – Natural Language Search (80% Net‑New Docs) 30:00 – RAG Databases Explained 32:00 – Hybrid AI Workflows & Cost Management 34:00 – Cross‑Functional Collaboration Example 36:00 – Industry Expertise & IP Cases 38:00 – Future of AI‑Powered Investigations 40:00 – Why JS Held Supports NELI “That’s all I have to do?… And then you could see the light bulb go off on her head.”

NeLI POD Season 2: Ep. 7 with Jeremy Pickens

Guest: Dr. Jeremy Pickens Managing Director of Applied Science, Elevate Episode Overview In this masterclass‑level conversation, Dr. Jeremy Pickens—one of the most respected information retrieval scientists in e‑discovery—joins Daniel and Brandon to explore the intellectual foundations and future trajectory of search, relevance, and AI in legal practice. Jeremy’s work has shaped the evolution from keyword search to TAR 1.0, to continuous active learning (CAL), and now to the GenAI era. If you’ve used active learning in any modern review platform, you’ve likely benefited from his research. The discussion ranges from polyphonic music retrieval to tokenization, from ancient Greek philosophy to the cold‑start problem in TAR, and from contextual diversity to the challenges of evaluating AI systems. Jeremy brings a rare blend of deep technical rigor and practical sensibility, offering a perspective that helps legal professionals understand not just what works, but why it works. Key Takeaways * Patterns matter more than keywords. Jeremy’s early work in polyphonic music retrieval mirrors the complexity of legal documents—both require identifying structural patterns, not just surface‑level signals. (“Finding those connections historically over time… is very similar to the storytelling and pattern finding we want to do in e‑discovery.”) * Feature extraction is as important as the algorithm. Tokenization, stemming, and sub‑word representations can make or break a machine learning model’s ability to recognize meaning across documents. * Outcome‑driven evaluation beats checkbox shopping. Lawyers should focus on how well a system performs on real data—not on whether it claims to use a particular algorithm or technique. Action Items for Legal Teams * Evaluate platforms using simulations, not demos. Ask vendors to run your data through their system to measure recall, precision, and learning speed. * Understand the basics of tokenization. Even a high‑level grasp helps practitioners make better decisions about search and review workflows. * Adopt CAL for early signal exploitation. Even a single coded document provides useful information—there’s no need for massive seed sets. Chapters & Timecodes 00:00 – Introduction Daniel and Brandon introduce Dr. Jeremy Pickens and his impact on the field. 00:03:04 – Jeremy’s Philosophy: Being “Part of the Flow” Why ideas in e‑discovery evolve collectively, not individually. 00:04:55 – From Polyphonic Music to Legal Documents How musical pattern analysis informed Jeremy’s approach to information retrieval. 00:08:34 – Short Messages, Semantic Boundaries, and IR Challenges Why Slack, Teams, and SMS require smarter segmentation techniques. 00:11:03 – Feature Extraction 101 Tokenization, stemming, n‑grams, and why they matter for TAR. 00:14:53 – Sub‑Word Tokenization and OCR How character‑level patterns help overcome noisy text. 00:17:48 – What Practitioners Should Ask Vendors Why checklists fail—and what outcome‑driven evaluation looks like. 00:20:34 – The Importance of Frequent Model Updates How recalculating rankings every two minutes improved precision by up to 20%. 00:22:40 – Why Simulations Are the Missing Piece Jeremy explains why the industry needs better evaluation frameworks. 00:24:40 – Contextual Diversity: Finding What You Don’t Know How algorithms identify unexplored pockets of documents. 00:28:56 – Solving the Cold‑Start Problem Why CAL can begin learning from the very first document. 00:30:01 – Greek Philosophy and TAR Parmenides vs. Heraclitus as a metaphor for TAR 1.0 vs. TAR 2.0. Compelling Quote “You don’t know what you don’t know… and the machine can look globally across the entire collection to find what you’ve never seen before.”

NeLI POD Season 2: Ep. 6 with Amy Ambroson

Guest: Amy Abramson Director, Litigation Solutions & Go‑To‑Market, UnitedLex Episode Overview In this insightful conversation, Amy Abramson—a longtime leader at UnitedLex and a driving force behind some of the largest and most complex MDLs in the country—joins Daniel and Brandon to explore how e‑discovery strategy, culture, and technology are evolving together. With more than a decade at UnitedLex, Amy brings a rare blend of legal, operational, and business expertise to the discussion. The episode dives into how modern discovery has shifted from brute‑force review to evidence‑based strategy, why culture and partnership matter in high‑stakes litigation, and how organizations can modernize their legal operations without losing sight of risk, efficiency, or long‑term goals. Amy also shares candid insights on AI adoption, workflow design, data reuse, and why UnitedLex continues to invest in the NELI community. Key Takeaways * Discovery has shifted from volume to strategy. Modern tools and AI allow teams to prioritize key documents early and build evidence‑driven workflows. (“We’re able to take multiple bites at the apple… really able to lead with evidence‑based strategy.”) * Culture drives outcomes in high‑stakes matters. Trust, transparency, and shared values between service providers, law firms, and corporate clients are essential for meeting deadlines and managing risk. * Modernization requires clarity and intentionality. Legal departments must understand their data landscape, retention policies, and business goals before investing in new technology. Action Items for Legal Teams * Build a repeatable playbook. Standardize privilege, PII, and workflow decisions while leaving room for matter‑specific flexibility. * Show early wins. Elevate hot documents quickly to build confidence in workflows and AI‑driven approaches. * Align tech with purpose. Don’t buy AI tools for the sake of AI—define the problem first, then select the right solution. * Plan modernization over 3–5 years. Evaluate data retention, internal expertise, and IT capacity before deciding what to insource or outsource. Chapters & Timecodes 00:00 – Introduction Daniel and Brandon welcome listeners and introduce Amy Abramson. 00:01:52 – Amy’s Career at UnitedLex How she joined the company right out of law school and grew into a leadership role. 00:02:32 – How the Purpose of e‑Discovery Has Evolved From search‑term brute force to strategic, evidence‑driven workflows. (“It’s no longer a badge of honor to say you had 500 people working on a case.”) 00:04:20 – Culture, Values, and Client Partnerships Why shared values and long‑term relationships matter in complex litigation. 00:06:27 – Managing MDLs and High‑Pressure Matters How trust, transparency, and tough conversations shape successful outcomes. 00:09:54 – Designing Workflows That Drive Success The role of playbooks, early wins, and steering committees in building confidence. 00:12:12 – Getting Attorney Buy‑In for AI and CAL How to address concerns about time, cost, and changing review models. 00:15:22 – The Challenge of Reusing Data Why consistency matters and how MD5 matching and sampling can help. 00:18:49 – Helping Clients Adopt AI Safely Understanding goals, vetting tools, and balancing people‑process‑tech. 00:22:12 – Bringing Business Thinking Into Legal Conversations How Amy’s background in management and marketing shapes her approach. 00:24:41 – The Barriers to Modernization Data retention, security, BYOD, and the realities of corporate IT. 00:28:33 – Why UnitedLex Supports NELI A unique environment where judges, lawyers, and technologists learn together. Compelling Quote “It’s all still a people‑process‑tech equation… AI isn’t a magic button solution for everything.”