The Ezra Klein Show

In December 2023, when South Africa accused Israel of genocide before the International Court of Justice, I thought it was wrong to do so. Israel had been attacked. Its defense was legitimate. The blood was on Hamas’s hands. But over the last year, I have watched a slew of organizations and scholars arrive at the view that whatever Israel’s war on Gaza began as, its mass assault on Palestinian civilians fits the definition of genocidal violence. This is a view now held by Amnesty International, B’Tselem, Human Rights Watch, and the president of the International Association of Genocide Scholars, among many others One reason I have stayed away from the word genocide is that there is an imprecision at its heart. When people use the word genocide, I think they imagine something like the Holocaust: the attempted extermination of an entire people. But the legal definition of genocide encompasses much more than that. So what is a genocide? And is this one? Philippe Sands is a lawyer who’s worked on a number of genocide cases. He is the author of, among other books, “East West Street [https://www.penguinrandomhouse.com/books/227917/east-west-street-by-philippe-sands/],” about how the idea of genocide was developed and written into international law. He is the best possible guide to the hardest possible topic. Mentioned: “What the Inventor of the Word ‘Genocide’ Might Have Said About Putin’s War [https://www.nytimes.com/2022/04/28/opinion/biden-putin-genocide.html]” by Philippe Sands “‘Only the Strong Survive.’ How Israel’s Benjamin Netanyahu Is Testing the Limits of Power [https://time.com/5623848/benjamin-netanyahu-interview-2/]” by Brian Bennett “The laws of war must guide Israel’s response to Hamas atrocity [https://www.ft.com/content/9f1b190d-c955-4381-a6f5-ab4a2bf1c32c]” The Ratline [https://www.penguinrandomhouse.com/books/566224/the-ratline-by-philippe-sands/] by Philippe Sands 38 Londres Street [https://www.penguinrandomhouse.com/books/672469/38-londres-street-by-philippe-sands/] by Philippe Sands Book Recommendations: Janet Flanner’s World [https://www.harpercollins.com/products/janet-flanners-world-janet-genet-flanner?variant=39939190685730] by Janet Flanner Commonwealth [https://www.harpercollins.com/products/commonwealth-ann-patchett?variant=32206179074082] by Ann Patchett By Night in Chile [https://www.ndbooks.com/book/by-night-in-chile/] by Roberto Bolaño Thoughts? Guest suggestions? Email us at ezrakleinshow@nytimes.com. You can find the transcript and more episodes of “The Ezra Klein Show” at nytimes.com/ezra-klein-podcast [https://www.nytimes.com/column/ezra-klein-podcast]. Book recommendations from all our guests are listed at https://www.nytimes.com/article/ezra-klein-show-book-recs.html [https://www.nytimes.com/article/ezra-klein-show-book-recs.html] This episode of “The Ezra Klein Show” was produced by Jack McCordick and Annie Galvin. Fact-checking by Michelle Harris, with Kate Sinclair. Our senior engineer is Jeff Geld, with additional mixing by Aman Sahota. Our executive producer is Claire Gordon. The show’s production team also includes Marie Cascione, Annie Galvin, Rollin Hu, Elias Isquith, Kristin Lin, Marina King and Jan Kobal. Original music by Marian Lozano, Dan Powell, Carole Sabouraud and Pat McCusker. Audience strategy by Kristina Samulewski and Shannon Busta. The director of New York Times Opinion Audio is Annie-Rose Strasser. Unlock full access to New York Times podcasts and explore everything from politics to pop culture. Subscribe today at nytimes.com/podcasts [http://nytimes.com/podcasts] or on Apple Podcasts and Spotify.

Mahmoud Khalil was a leader in Columbia University’s pro-Palestinian protests. In March, he was arrested by ICE agents and held for more than 100 days in a Louisiana detention facility. The Trump administration claims Khalil is deportable — even though he has a green card, married to a U.S. citizen — because he poses a threat to U.S. foreign policy goals. Khalil’s alleged offense here is speech. Khalil is out now on bail, and he’s still speaking. I wanted to hear what he had to say. Mentioned: A Letter From Palestinian Activist Mahmoud Khalil [https://www.aclu.org/news/free-speech/a-letter-from-palestinian-activist-mahmoud-khalil] The Hundred Years’ War on Palestine [https://us.macmillan.com/books/9781627798556/thehundredyearswaronpalestine/] by Rashid Khalidi Book Recommendations: One Day, Everyone Will Have Always Been Against This [https://www.penguinrandomhouse.com/books/777485/one-day-everyone-will-have-always-been-against-this-by-omar-el-akkad/] by Omar El Akkad The Question of Palestine [https://www.penguinrandomhouse.com/books/159795/the-question-of-palestine-by-edward-w-said/] by Edward Said My Promised Land [https://www.penguinrandomhouse.com/books/165169/my-promised-land-by-ari-shavit/] by Ari Shavit Thoughts? Guest suggestions? Email us at ezrakleinshow@nytimes.com. You can find the transcript and more episodes of “The Ezra Klein Show” at nytimes.com/ezra-klein-podcast [https://www.nytimes.com/column/ezra-klein-podcast]. Book recommendations from all our guests are listed at https://www.nytimes.com/article/ezra-klein-show-book-recs.html [https://www.nytimes.com/article/ezra-klein-show-book-recs.html] This episode of “The Ezra Klein Show” was produced by Rollin Hu and Jack McCordick. Fact-checking by Michelle Harris. Our senior engineer is Jeff Geld, with additional mixing by Aman Sahota. Our executive producer is Claire Gordon. The show’s production team also includes Marie Cascione, Annie Galvin, Elias Isquith, Kristin Lin, Marina King and Jan Kobal. Original music by Carole Sabouraud, Aman Sahota and Pat McCusker. Audience strategy by Kristina Samulewski and Shannon Busta. The director of New York Times Opinion Audio is Annie-Rose Strasser. Unlock full access to New York Times podcasts and explore everything from politics to pop culture. Subscribe today at nytimes.com/podcasts [http://nytimes.com/podcasts] or on Apple Podcasts and Spotify.

Vice President JD Vance gave a speech recently that deserved more attention than it got. Accepting an award at a right-wing think tank, he argued that there’s a fundamental brokenness in how we define who is an American. He explained that this is the root of many of our country’s problems: a national identity that has become too broad. That was also a core idea of the 2018 book “The Virtue of Nationalism [https://www.hachettebookgroup.com/titles/yoram-hazony/the-virtue-of-nationalism/9781541645370/?lens=basic-books],” which caused a sensation on the right. Its author, the Israeli political theorist Yoram Hazony, went on to build a movement. For years, he has hosted NatCon — short for National Conservatism — conferences. Those events have featured speakers like Marco Rubio, who is now the secretary of state, and Senator Josh Hawley. And one of the most reliable speakers, year after year, has been Vance. I wanted to talk to Hazony. What exactly is his argument, his worldview? And are the Trump administration’s policies putting it into practice? Mentioned: JD Vance’s speech at The Claremont Institute [https://americanmind.org/salvo/american-statesmanship-for-the-golden-age/] Book Recommendations: The Demon in Democracy [https://www.encounterbooks.com/books/the-demon-in-democracy-paperback/?srsltid=AfmBOooQVle2OWaD4KGVKTn8uG_HaOniweBHZOl6aKyT9g7AEl7k5qPP] by Ryszard Legutko The Strategy of Denial [https://yalebooks.yale.edu/book/9780300268027/the-strategy-of-denial/] by Elbridge Colby Israel and Civilization [https://www.simonandschuster.com/books/Israel-and-Civilization/Josh-Hammer/9781635769739] by Josh Hammer Thoughts? Guest suggestions? Email us at ezrakleinshow@nytimes.com. You can find the transcript and more episodes of “The Ezra Klein Show” at nytimes.com/ezra-klein-podcast [https://www.nytimes.com/column/ezra-klein-podcast]. Book recommendations from all our guests are listed at https://www.nytimes.com/article/ezra-klein-show-book-recs.html [https://www.nytimes.com/article/ezra-klein-show-book-recs.html] This episode of “The Ezra Klein Show” was produced by Elias Isquith. Fact-checking by Will Peischel. Our senior engineer is Jeff Geld, with additional mixing by Aman Sahota. Our executive producer is Claire Gordon. The show’s production team also includes Marie Cascione, Annie Galvin, Michelle Harris, Rollin Hu, Marina King, Jan Kobal, Kristin Lin and Jack McCordick. Original music by Pat McCusker. Audience strategy by Kristina Samulewski and Shannon Busta. The director of New York Times Opinion Audio is Annie-Rose Strasser. Unlock full access to New York Times podcasts and explore everything from politics to pop culture. Subscribe today at nytimes.com/podcasts [http://nytimes.com/podcasts] or on Apple Podcasts and Spotify.

“It’s so insidious, people don’t realize it,” Barbara Kingsolver told me, describing the prejudice against “country people.” Kingsolver is one of those “country people,” as well as a literary legend in her own time, who set out to write the “great Appalachian novel.” And I think she did.  “Demon Copperhead [https://www.harpercollins.com/products/demon-copperhead-barbara-kingsolver?variant=41227655118882]” won the Pulitzer Prize in 2023, and we taped this conversation later that year. And I wanted to re-air it because the divide between rural and urban America remains just as strong today, and as relevant to our politics. And Kingsolver might be the country’s sharpest and most poignant observer of it. Mentioned: Shiloh and Other Stories [https://www.penguinrandomhouse.com/books/108765/shiloh-and-other-stories-by-bobbie-ann-mason/] by Bobbie Ann Mason Book Recommendations: Landings [https://arwendonahue.com/landings/] by Arwen Donahue Raising Lazarus [https://www.hachettebookgroup.com/titles/beth-macy/raising-lazarus/9780316430227/?lens=little-brown] by Beth Macy Pod [https://www.simonandschuster.com/books/Pod/Laline-Paull/9781639363711] by Laline Paull Thoughts? Guest suggestions? Email us at ezrakleinshow@nytimes.com. You can find the transcript and more episodes of “The Ezra Klein Show” at nytimes.com/ezra-klein-podcast [https://www.nytimes.com/column/ezra-klein-podcast]. Book recommendations from all our guests are listed at https://www.nytimes.com/article/ezra-klein-show-book-recs.html. [https://www.nytimes.com/article/ezra-klein-show-book-recs.html] This episode of “The Ezra Klein Show” was produced by Annie Galvin. Fact-checking by Michelle Harris. Mixing by Sonia Herrero, with Aman Sahota. Our senior engineer is Jeff Geld. Our executive producer is Claire Gordon. The show’s production team also includes Marie Cascione, Rollin Hu, Elias Isquith, Marina King, Jan Kobal, Kristin Lin and Jack McCordick. Original music by Isaac Jones. Audience strategy by Kristina Samulewski and Shannon Busta. The director of New York Times Opinion Audio is Annie-Rose Strasser. Unlock full access to New York Times podcasts and explore everything from politics to pop culture. Subscribe today at nytimes.com/podcasts [http://nytimes.com/podcasts] or on Apple Podcasts and Spotify.

Biden passed the most ambitious climate legislation in American history. Trump just shredded it. What does that mean for the future of renewable energy in America? Where does the climate movement go from here? And is it too late for us to avert climate catastrophe?  To answer these questions, I invited onto the show two climate experts: Jesse Jenkins, who is a leading climate modeler and a professor at Princeton University, where he runs the Princeton ZERO Lab, and Jane Flegal, who is the executive director of the Blue Horizons Foundation and served on the Biden administration’s climate policy team. We discuss how far Trump’s policies have set us back, the lessons the climate movement should learn from this loss and what the next wave of climate politics may look like.  Mentioned: “Impacts of the One Big Beautiful Bill On The US Energy Transition – Summary Report [https://zenodo.org/records/15801701]” by REPEAT Project “There’s a Race to Power the Future. China Is Pulling Away. [https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2025/06/30/climate/china-clean-energy-power.html]” by David Gelles, Somini Sengupta, Keith Bradsher and Brad Plumer Jesse’s Book Recommendations: Why Nothing Works [https://www.perseusbooks.com/titles/marc-j-dunkelman/why-nothing-works/9781541700215/] by Marc J. Dunkelman Energy [https://www.simonandschuster.com/books/Energy/Richard-Rhodes/9781501105364] by Richard Rhodes Mars Trilogy Series [https://www.penguinrandomhouse.com/series/ZMS/mars-trilogy/] by Kim Stanley Robinson Jane’s Book Recommendations: Mating [https://www.penguinrandomhouse.com/books/158972/mating-by-norman-rush/] by Norman Rush Frontiers of Illusion [https://archive.org/details/frontiersofillus0000sare] by Daniel Sarewitz An Engine, Not a Camera [https://mitpress.mit.edu/9780262633673/an-engine-not-a-camera/] by Donald MacKenzie Thoughts? Guest suggestions? Email us at ezrakleinshow@nytimes.com. You can find the transcript and more episodes of “The Ezra Klein Show” at nytimes.com/ezra-klein-podcast. Book recommendations from all our guests are listed at https://www.nytimes.com/article/ezra-klein-show-book-recs.html This episode of “The Ezra Klein Show” was produced by Rollin Hu and Jack McCordick. Fact-checking by Michelle Harris. Our senior engineer is Jeff Geld, with additional mixing by Aman Sahota. Our executive producer is Claire Gordon. The show’s production team also includes Marie Cascione, Annie Galvin, Elias Isquith, Marina King, Jan Kobal and Kristin Lin. Original music by Pat McCusker. Audience strategy by Kristina Samulewski and Shannon Busta. The director of New York Times Opinion Audio is Annie-Rose Strasser. Unlock full access to New York Times podcasts and explore everything from politics to pop culture. Subscribe today at nytimes.com/podcasts [http://nytimes.com/podcasts] or on Apple Podcasts and Spotify.