Unlearn

Incorruptible with Eric Ries

Incorruptible with Eric Ries What if the companies that last the longest are the ones building enough trust that people want to keep participating in them? That’s the idea behind this conversation with Eric Ries — entrepreneur, author of The Lean Startup, and now Incorruptible. Through stories such as Volvo giving away the seatbelt patent, Tony’s Chocolonely opening its ethical supply chain to competitors, and Mary Parker Follett’s idea of the “invisible leader,” we explore how organizations create lasting advantage through trust, shared purpose, and systems that hold together as companies scale. We also unpack why so many businesses drift toward short-term extraction, what leaders misunderstand about organizational health, and why AI is exposing deeper weaknesses in how companies operate. If you’re building a company and questioning whether business-as-usual is still the right operating system, this conversation is for you. KEY TAKEAWAYS * Ethical business can outperform extractive business models: Eric argues that mission-driven companies are not sacrificing performance. In many cases, trust, alignment, and long-term thinking create stronger economic outcomes. * Volvo used open ecosystems as strategy: Giving away the three-point seat belt patent helped establish safety as an industry standard while positioning Volvo as the global leader in automotive safety. * Tony’s Chocolonely treats its mission as infrastructure: The company’s goal is not simply selling chocolate. Its mission is to eliminate child slavery from the cacao supply chain through systems that competitors can also adopt. * Positive externalities can strengthen competitive advantage: Eric explains how companies can create value by improving the broader ecosystem around them instead of maximizing short-term value extraction. * Organizations are shaped by invisible leadership: Mary Parker Follett’s idea of the “invisible leader” shows how shared purpose influences decisions when executives are not in the room. * Organizational health cannot be commanded: Leaders can issue instructions, but trust, accountability, and commitment have to be cultivated through systems and behavior over time. ADDITIONAL INSIGHTS The current business narrative rewards extraction over durability: Barry and Eric discuss how modern startup culture often glorifies hyper-efficient solo founders, aggressive cost-cutting, and short-term returns while ignoring long-term organizational health. AI is amplifying leadership weaknesses, not solving them: As companies use AI to accelerate decision-making and productivity, leaders are being forced to confront whether their systems actually create clarity, trust, and aligned behavior. Mission statements are easy. Mission transmission is harder: Eric argues that values only matter when they shape real decisions, incentives, hiring, product tradeoffs, and customer experience. Open systems can expand both impact and market position: From Linux and Git to Netflix influencing AWS through open source tooling, the episode explores how sharing infrastructure can strengthen an ecosystem while also benefiting the originating company. Profit becomes dangerous when it ignores externalities: Eric explains how traditional profit models often fail to account for long-term brand damage, human cost, environmental impact, and deferred liabilities. EPISODE HIGHLIGHTS 00:00 – Episode Recap Eric Ries explains why organizations are living systems, not machines to be controlled. Leaders can command action, but organizational health has to be cultivated through purpose, trust, and the systems people use when no one is watching. 00:57 – Barry’s Opening Reflection Barry connects AI, leadership, and decision-making systems before introducing Eric’s new book, Incorruptible. 02:14 – Guest Introduction: Eric Ries Barry introduces Eric Ries, entrepreneur, author of The Lean Startup, and author of Incorruptible, framing the conversation around ethical business as a path to long-term prosperity. 04:34 – Researching the Stories Behind Incorruptible Eric shares how much research went into the book, including the challenge of finding stories that were not just interesting, but genuinely useful for leaders. 08:07 – Volvo and the “Seatbelt Heist” Eric breaks down how Volvo’s decision to give away the three-point seat belt patent created a prosperity cascade that reshaped the industry while strengthening Volvo’s long-term brand position around safety. 16:45 – Open Source as Strategy Barry connects Volvo’s story to Netflix and cloud computing, where open sourcing internal tools helped shape the direction of the broader ecosystem. 17:57 – Positive Externalities as Business Strategy Eric explains why companies often overlook opportunities to create value by improving the wider system around them. 20:18 – Tony’s Chocolonely and Slave-Free Chocolate Eric tells the story of how a Dutch journalist turned frustration over child labor in cacao production into a fast-growing chocolate company with a much larger mission. 24:03 – Mission Beyond the Product Tony’s mission is not simply making chocolate. The business exists to eliminate child slavery from the cacao supply chain and align economics with ethical sourcing. 26:00 – Tony’s Open Chain Eric explains how Tony’s opened its ethical supply chain to competitors while requiring them to commit to the same standards across all their chocolate products. 30:32 – The False Tradeoff Between Ethics and Performance Eric challenges the business-school assumption that companies must choose between mission and profit, arguing that the data often shows the opposite. 33:23 – Redefining Profit Barry and Eric discuss why traditional definitions of profit often ignore externalities, deferred liabilities, human cost, and long-term brand damage. 39:19 – The Myth of the Solo Founder Barry pushes back on modern founder mythology and explains why anything built to last depends on systems, teams, and shared ownership. 40:36 – Mary Parker Follett and the Invisible Leader Eric introduces management thinker Mary Parker Follett and explains why her ideas about shared purpose and distributed authority were decades ahead of their time. 45:00 – What Guides Decisions When Leaders Aren’t Present Eric explores Follett’s idea of the invisible leader: the shared sense of purpose that influences behavior when no executive is in the room. 49:35 – Organizations as Living Systems Eric compares organizations to emergent intelligence systems like ant colonies or the human body, arguing that leaders can cultivate organizational health but cannot directly command it. 52:30 – Closing Reflections Barry and Eric reflect on the need for new business models that prioritize trust, mission alignment, and long-term value creation over extraction. USEFUL RESOURCES * Eric Ries — Incorruptible [https://a.co/d/06ldmBta] * Eric Ries — The Lean Startup [https://a.co/d/08sWpDqJ] * Eric Ries on LinkedIn - https://www.linkedin.com/in/eries/ [https://www.linkedin.com/in/eries/] * The Eric Ries Show YouTube - https://www.youtube.com/@theericriesshow [https://www.youtube.com/@theericriesshow] * Barry O’Reilly — Artificial Organizations - https://geni.us/artificialorgs [https://geni.us/artificialorgs] FAQS Q1: WHAT IS ERIC RIES’ BOOK INCORRUPTIBLE ABOUT? Incorruptible explores how leaders can build companies that stay aligned with their mission as they grow. Eric looks at stories from business history to show how purpose, governance, incentives, and ownership shape whether companies create long-term value or lose their way. Q2: WHY DOES ERIC RIES USE VOLVO AS AN EXAMPLE? Volvo’s three-point seat belt story shows how a company can create value by spreading a mission beyond its own products. By making the patent available to others, Volvo helped establish safety as an industry standard while strengthening its own reputation for safety. Q3: WHAT IS TONY’S CHOCOLONELY TRYING TO CHANGE? Tony’s Chocolonely is trying to eliminate child slavery from the cacao supply chain. The company sells chocolate, but the deeper mechanism is building an ethical supply chain that other companies can use through Tony’s Open Chain. Q4: WHAT DOES MARY PARKER FOLLETT MEAN BY THE INVISIBLE LEADER? The invisible leader is the shared purpose that guides people’s decisions when no formal leader is present. It is what shapes behavior in everyday moments, such as how teams handle quality issues, customer problems, or ethical tradeoffs. Q5: CAN LEADERS COMMAND ORGANIZATIONAL HEALTH? No. Leaders can command tasks, especially in urgent situations, but they cannot command trust, judgment, or commitment. Organizational health has to be cultivated through systems, incentives, habits, and a clear mission people can actually use to make decisions.

Do Less, Win More: How Niche Focus Cuts Through the Noise with Tas Bober

Most people think growth comes from doing more—more services, more offers, more complexity. But in this episode, I sit down with Tas Bober, who did the exact opposite. She stripped everything back, focused on one problem, and built a business so clear people can describe it in a single sentence. This conversation is about the courage to simplify—and why that’s far harder (and more powerful) than it sounds. Tas didn’t plan to become an entrepreneur. After layoffs, burnout, and a side experiment on LinkedIn, she found herself with unexpected demand—but no clear direction. It wasn’t until she made a bold, uncomfortable decision to niche down into landing pages that everything changed. What followed is a masterclass in clarity, positioning, and designing a business that actually fits your life—not the other way around. KEY TAKEAWAYS * Niching down creates clarity: Focusing on one problem made it obvious what Tas does—and why clients should choose her. * Doing less accelerates growth: Eliminating distractions and context switching improved both quality and income. * Clarity beats capability: Being known for one thing is more valuable than being able to do many. * Positioning drives inbound demand: Clear positioning meant clients showed up with defined problems—making selling easier. * Data should guide decisions: Tracking time revealed which work actually delivered the highest return. * Design your business around your life: Tas optimized for time, flexibility, and energy—not scale for the sake of it. ADDITIONAL INSIGHTS * Trying to do everything can make you lose authority: You shift from expert to order taker. * Community accelerates growth: Trusted peers help challenge thinking and shorten the learning curve. * Scarcity mindset delays focus: Holding onto everything early can prevent meaningful progress. * AI amplifies thinking—it doesn’t replace it: Expertise and nuance still drive better outcomes. * Simplicity requires discipline: Even after success, the temptation to expand never goes away. EPISODE HIGHLIGHTS 00:00 – Episode Recap Tas shares how narrowing her focus to one specific problem transformed her business, income, and lifestyle. 01:00 – The Accidental Entrepreneur Tas reflects on being laid off twice and how a side experiment on LinkedIn unexpectedly opened new opportunities. 05:00 – The Struggle of Starting Out She describes the early chaos of offering everything, underpricing, and trying to figure out what problem she actually solved. 08:30 – The Niching Down Breakthrough A peer challenges Tas to focus on landing pages—and within a week, everything changes. 12:30 – Why Clarity Wins in Business Barry and Tas unpack why being known for one thing beats showcasing a wide range of capabilities. 17:00 – The Power of Focused Repetition Tas explains how working on the same problem repeatedly builds deep expertise and pattern recognition. 20:30 – The Economics of Specialization Tracking her time reveals a stark difference in earnings between general consulting and niche work. 24:30 – Cutting Everything Else Tas makes the difficult decision to eliminate all other services and go all-in on landing pages. 26:00 – Resisting the Urge to Expand Even after success, the temptation to do more returns—and why discipline is required to stay focused. 29:00 – Fast Decisions and Iteration Tas shares her approach to reversible decisions and rapid experimentation. 31:00 – Building a Values-Driven Business She discusses choosing clients based on alignment and maintaining an audience-first mindset. 34:00 – The Role of Simplicity in Growth Barry highlights how clear positioning is often the biggest unlock for entrepreneurs. 36:50 – Designing a Business Around Life Tas reflects on working three days a week and prioritizing enjoyment and flexibility. 38:00 – AI, Creativity, and Human Insight Why AI can’t replace nuanced expertise—and how human judgment remains critical. 39:30 – Closing Reflections A final look at growth, experimentation, and the ongoing journey of building something meaningful. FAQS Q1. Why is niching down important for business growth? Niching down creates clarity in your positioning, making it easier for customers to understand what you do and why they should choose you. It also improves inbound demand and simplifies sales conversations. Q2. Can focusing on one service really increase revenue? Yes. Specializing allows you to become more efficient, deliver higher-quality results, and charge premium rates—often earning more while working less. Q3. How do you choose the right niche for your business? The best niche sits at the intersection of your experience, market demand, and repeatable problems you’ve solved. Testing a niche for a defined period can help validate it quickly. Q4. What are the benefits of clear positioning in a crowded market? Clear positioning helps you stand out by making you the first person people think of when they have a specific problem, reducing competition and increasing trust. Q5. How does specialization compare to using AI tools in business? AI can support execution, but it lacks the nuanced insight and pattern recognition that comes from deep specialization. Experts who focus on one problem can deliver more valuable and differentiated outcomes.

Solve Business Problem with People with Melanie Steinbach

Most leaders think AI is a technology shift. It’s not. It’s a behavior shift. In this episode, I sit down with Melanie Steinbach—former Chief HR Officer at McDonald’s, Cameo, and MasterClass—to unpack what’s actually changing inside organizations as AI becomes embedded in how we work. Melanie has spent her career solving business problems through people. But she challenges a core assumption: that performance problems are solved by replacing people. Instead, the real leverage comes from coaching, clarity, and creating the conditions for people to do their best work. We explore why AI doesn’t replace leadership—it exposes it. And what that means for AI leadership and decision-making inside modern organizations. Same tools. Same access. Completely different outcomes. The difference comes down to how leaders think, make decisions, and design systems around their teams. We also unpack a critical shift most organizations aren’t ready for: redefining what “valuable work” actually means. For years, being busy—and being in meetings—has been treated as a proxy for value. But when AI handles execution, value moves to judgment, context, and decision quality. If you’re leading teams, navigating transformation, or trying to understand where AI actually fits in your organization, this conversation will change how you think about leadership, work, and performance. KEY TAKEAWAYS * Solving business problems through people isn’t about replacement: The real leverage comes from coaching, clarity, and creating the conditions for people to succeed. * AI exposes how you lead: The same tools produce radically different outcomes depending on how you think and make decisions. * Clarity drives performance: When expectations are vague, even high performers struggle to deliver. * Context is now the constraint: Information is everywhere, but leaders create value by helping teams interpret and act on it. * Busy work is losing its signal: Meetings and activity no longer define value—decision quality does. * AI requires behavior change, not just adoption: The advantage goes to leaders who change how they work, not just what tools they use. * Judgment is the differentiator: AI can generate answers, but leaders are still responsible for making the call. ADDITIONAL INSIGHTS * Performance problems are often system problems: Most people want to do a good job, but unclear expectations and missing context get in the way. * Onboarding is being rebuilt in real time: AI enables “what you need to know, when you need to know it” instead of static training programs. * Leadership is shifting from answers to perspective: The value is no longer having information—it’s providing context and nuance. * Meetings were a proxy for value: Being busy created the illusion of impact, but that signal is breaking down fast. * Work is being unbundled: Roles are no longer fixed—they’re collections of tasks being redistributed between humans and machines. EPISODE HIGHLIGHTS 00:00 – Episode Recap Melanie Steinbach reframes how organizations solve business problems, shifting the focus from replacing people to unlocking their potential through clarity, coaching, and better systems. 01:30 – Guest Introduction: Melanie Steinbach Former Chief HR Officer at McDonald’s, Cameo, and MasterClass, Melanie has led transformation at scale across some of the world’s most recognized organizations. 03:49 – From Replacement to Development Melanie shares the moment she realized solving business problems through people isn’t about hiring differently—it’s about developing the people you already have. 06:35 – Why People Want to Do a Good Job Most employees aren’t underperforming by choice—they’re missing clarity, skills, or expectations. 08:24 – The Cost of Missing Clarity Unclear systems create friction, confusion, and unnecessary failure—even in high-performing environments. 11:18 – Culture Shapes Behavior In some organizations, asking questions signals curiosity. In others, it signals weakness—and that changes everything. 18:14 – AI Changes How People Learn Onboarding and development become dynamic, personalized, and driven by real-time needs. 22:02 – From Knowledge to Context Leadership evolves from delivering information to helping teams interpret and apply it effectively. 24:41 – Presence Becomes a Superpower AI reduces cognitive load, allowing leaders to show up focused, prepared, and ready to make decisions. 28:06 – Why Humans Still Matter Technology amplifies systems, but judgment, meaning, and connection remain human. 32:00 – Rethinking Valuable Work Being busy is no longer proof of impact—decision quality is. 35:16 – A New Metric for Performance High-quality decisions—made faster with better context—become the new standard. 38:58 – Thinking Is the New Advantage Creating space to think clearly becomes one of the most valuable leadership skills. 41:55 – Work Is Being Redefined Jobs are breaking into tasks, with AI handling execution and humans focusing on judgment. 42:33 – Why This Moment Matters Melanie shares why she’s stepping in to help organizations navigate this shift across industries. 44:04 – Closing Reflections This isn’t a small shift—it’s a fundamental redesign of how work gets done and how leaders create value.

Stop Chasing Productivity—Start Thinking Better with AI with Misty Shafer Sterne

AI isn’t changing the game—it’s exposing how you think. In this episode, I sit down with Misty Shafer Sterne, Vice President of Commercial Technology at American Airlines, to explore what it really takes to lead with AI inside a complex, high-stakes organization. We go beyond the usual productivity narrative and dig into something far more powerful: how AI can sharpen decision-making, surface better questions, and help leaders operate with greater clarity and intent. Misty shares her journey from chasing efficiency to building a personal system for thinking—using AI as a partner to capture ideas, pressure test decisions, and improve how she shows up as a leader. We also unpack why experimentation matters more than metrics early on, how to avoid automating broken processes, and what it looks like to lead in the open so teams can follow. This is a conversation about performance, not productivity—and what it means to truly unlearn how we work. KEY TAKEAWAYS * AI amplifies how you think: The real advantage isn’t speed but improving clarity, judgment, and decision-making quality. * Productivity is just the entry point: The biggest gains come from using AI to enhance performance, not just efficiency. * Experimentation must come before measurement: Over-indexing on productivity metrics too early can shut down innovation. * Leaders must unlearn being the “answer person”: Great leadership shifts toward asking better questions rather than having all the answers. * Decision velocity matters more than idea volume: Success comes from quickly identifying which ideas are worth pursuing, not generating more ideas. ADDITIONAL INSIGHTS * AI as a thinking partner: Misty’s breakthrough came when she used AI to pressure test ideas instead of manage tasks. * Externalizing thinking creates clarity: Capturing raw, messy thoughts helps reveal patterns and improve decision-making. * Your thinking becomes a reusable asset: AI enables leaders to build a system that stores and evolves their ideas over time. * Automating bad processes makes them worse: AI should be used to redesign workflows, not just accelerate existing inefficiencies. * Leadership requires learning in public: Vulnerability and visible experimentation help drive adoption across teams. EPISODE HIGHLIGHTS 00:00 – Episode Recap A shift from chasing productivity to unlocking better thinking transforms how leaders use AI—turning it into a true decision-making partner rather than just a tool. 02:00 – Guest Introduction: Misty Shafer Sterne Barry introduces Misty, VP of Commercial at American Airlines, leading AI-driven decision-making across pricing, customer experience, and revenue. 04:25 – From Perfection to Curiosity Misty reflects on her journey from needing all the answers to embracing vulnerability and asking better questions as a leader. 07:45 – The Productivity Trap Early AI use focused on inbox management and efficiency, but Misty realized this wasn’t where real value lies. 09:30 – AI as a Thinking Partner Using AI to externalize thoughts, identify patterns, and pressure test ideas unlocks a new level of clarity and decision-making. 12:30 – Performance Over Productivity The real benefit of AI is improving how leaders show up, think, and collaborate—not just getting more done. 15:15 – Capturing Ideas Before They’re Lost Verbal processing and real-time capture help preserve insights and connect ideas over time. 18:18 – Building a System of Thinking Accumulating ideas creates a long-term asset that helps leaders identify patterns and improve decisions. 21:25 – Why Experimentation Needs Space Over-measuring productivity too early can limit exploration and reduce the potential of AI adoption. 24:33 – Context Matters in Decisions Capturing why decisions were made enables better future judgment as conditions change. 29:04 – Leading by Example Misty shares how modeling experimentation helped shift her organization from fear to adoption. 33:40 – The Danger of Automating Bad Processes AI can amplify poor systems—leaders must rethink workflows, not just speed them up. 36:03 – Redesigning Work for Better Outcomes True transformation comes from changing behavior and systems, not just adopting tools. 38:45 – Unlocking Ideas Across the Organization AI democratizes innovation, requiring leaders to step back and let the best ideas emerge from anywhere. FAQS 1. What is the biggest mistake leaders make when adopting AI? Focusing too much on productivity metrics early on instead of creating space for experimentation and learning. 2. How should leaders actually use AI in their daily work? As a thinking partner—to capture ideas, pressure test decisions, and improve clarity, not just automate tasks. 3. What does “decision velocity” mean? It’s the ability to make faster, higher-quality decisions with confidence by using better information and structured thinking. 4. Why is experimentation so important in AI adoption? Because the real value emerges through exploration—rigid expectations can limit discovery and innovation. 5. How can leaders avoid damaging their teams when introducing AI? By leading with transparency, modeling behavior, and ensuring AI enhances collaboration rather than creating pressure or fear. USEFUL RESOURCES * Misty Shafer on LinkedIn [https://www.linkedin.com/in/mistyshafersterne/] * American Airlines on LinkedIn [https://www.linkedin.com/company/american-airlines/] * American Airlines Website [https://www.aa.com/homePage.do?locale=en_US] * Artificial Organizations [https://geni.us/artificialorgs] by Barry O’Reilly [https://geni.us/artificialorgs] * Brené Brown – “Rumbling” and leadership frameworks [https://brenebrown.com/] FOLLOW THE HOST * LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/barryoreillyhttps://www.linkedin.com/in/barryoreilly [https://www.linkedin.com/in/barryoreilly] * Personal site: https://barryoreilly.comhttps://barryoreilly.com [https://barryoreilly.com] * Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/barryoreillyauthor/https://www.facebook.com/barryoreillyauthor/ [https://www.facebook.com/barryoreillyauthor/] * Twitter: https://x.com/barryoreillyhttps://x.com/barryoreilly [https://x.com/barryoreilly] * Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/barryoreilly/https://www.instagram.com/barryoreilly/ [https://www.instagram.com/barryoreilly/]

Capital Evolution: The Future of Business and AI

What role should businesses play in society today? In this episode of the Unlearn Podcast, I sit down with investor, ecosystem builder, and Foundry Group co-founder Seth Levine to explore how capitalism itself may be evolving. Seth’s latest book, Capital Evolution, examines a fundamental question: can modern capitalism create broader opportunity, stronger communities, and more inclusive ownership? Our conversation ranges from declining economic mobility and generational uncertainty to the role of values-driven companies and the rise of AI-powered work. We also dive into how leaders can navigate uncertainty—balancing profit, purpose, and technological disruption. Along the way, Seth shares how a single dinner conversation sparked a two-year research journey, interviewing more than 100 leaders, academics, and entrepreneurs to understand where capitalism may be headed next. This conversation also builds on ideas we’ve explored before on the podcast—particularly with Seth’s long-time collaborator Brad Feld. In our earlier discussion on Give First leadership [https://barryoreilly.com/explore/podcast/give-first-leadership-brad-feld/], Brad challenged the idea that success comes from extraction, instead arguing that generosity, long-term thinking, and community building are the real drivers of sustainable impact. Together, these conversations offer a powerful lens on how leadership, capitalism, and value creation are being redefined. If you’re thinking about the future of work, leadership in an AI-powered world, or how organizations can create both economic and societal value, this episode will challenge some assumptions. KEY TAKEAWAYS * Capitalism is already evolving: Many leaders still operate as if we’re in a shareholder-first world—but that model has already shifted. Businesses now face growing pressure to balance profit with broader societal impact. * Economic mobility is declining: While economies continue to grow in aggregate, fewer people are able to move up financially. This shift is reshaping how younger generations view opportunity and fairness. * Values-driven companies are becoming more visible: Organizations like Patagonia, Hobby Lobby, and Chick-fil-A show that companies can operate with clear values. What matters most is transparency—being honest about what the organization stands for. * AI is changing how leaders work: Seth describes using AI tools like Claude as an operating system for his daily work—drafting ideas, exploring questions, and accelerating thinking. Leaders who combine human judgment with machine intelligence can dramatically increase their effectiveness. * Curiosity and listening are leadership superpowers: One of Seth’s biggest lessons from writing the book was the value of listening to perspectives outside his own experience. Engaging with different viewpoints reveals insights leaders often miss. ADDITIONAL INSIGHTS * The danger of misleading economic averages: Seth describes the “Jeff Bezos walks into a bar” problem—where averages distort reality. Aggregate growth can hide widening inequality and declining mobility. * The difference between values and politics in business: Companies should be clear about their values—but that doesn’t mean every company needs to take political positions. Transparency builds trust with employees, investors, and customers. * Why younger generations feel uncertain: Many are entering a world shaped by rapid technological change, rising costs of living, and shifting job markets. AI both excites and worries people about what work will look like. * AI rewards experimentation: The people benefiting most from AI are those who continuously experiment. Treating AI as a collaborator—not just a tool—opens entirely new ways of working. EPISODE HIGHLIGHTS 00:00 – Episode Recap Seth Levine reflects on the changing nature of capitalism and why declining economic mobility, shifting values, and AI-driven disruption are forcing leaders to rethink how businesses create value for society. 02:40 – Guest Introduction: Seth Levine Barry introduces Seth Levine, co-founder and partner at Foundry Group, entrepreneur advocate, and author of Capital Evolution, a book exploring how capitalism can evolve to create broader opportunity. 05:00 – The Dinner Conversation That Sparked a Book Seth describes the boardroom conversation that sparked the idea behind Capital Evolution—a question about whether investors would accept lower returns in order to live their values. 07:53 – Why the Capitalism Debate Is Growing Research for the book revealed that roughly half of people under 40 believe capitalism isn’t working—prompting a deeper exploration of how the system might evolve. 10:33 – Values-Driven Businesses in Practice Examples like Patagonia and Hobby Lobby show how companies can operate with strong values while still pursuing business success. 19:14 – Generational Anxiety About the Future Younger generations face growing uncertainty about careers, technology disruption, and economic opportunity. 23:38 – Learning From Different Perspectives Travel, conversations, and research helped Seth recognize how limited our understanding can be when we stay within familiar social and professional circles. 29:30 – Experimenting With AI at Work Seth shares how tools like Claude have become part of his daily workflow—helping him explore ideas, draft writing, and accelerate thinking. 33:38 – Why AI Feels Exciting Again After decades in venture capital, Levine says experimenting with AI tools has reintroduced a sense of novelty and curiosity into his work. 40:51 – The Pattern of Every New Technology From automobiles to AI, every major technological shift initially sparks fear before becoming normalized. 42:07 – A Simple Leadership Habit: Listen More Seth encourages leaders to actively seek conversations with people who hold different perspectives—and listen without trying to persuade. 45:00 – Closing Reflections Barry wraps the conversation, highlighting the importance of curiosity, experimentation, and openness as leaders navigate the evolving relationship between business, society, and technology. FAQS Q1. WHAT IS CAPITAL EVOLUTION AND WHY IS IT IMPORTANT? Capital Evolution describes how capitalism is shifting beyond a shareholder-first model toward creating broader societal value. It’s important because businesses are now expected to balance profit with impact, ownership, and community outcomes. Q2. WHY IS ECONOMIC MOBILITY DECLINING TODAY? Economic mobility is declining because wealth and opportunity are increasingly concentrated. Even as economies grow overall, fewer people can move up income levels, making it harder for younger generations to improve their financial position. Q3. WHAT ROLE SHOULD BUSINESSES PLAY IN SOCIETY TODAY? Businesses should generate profit while also contributing to society through clear values, responsible decision-making, and long-term thinking. The most effective companies align economic success with positive societal impact. Q4. HOW IS AI CHANGING LEADERSHIP AND THE FUTURE OF WORK? AI is transforming leadership by enhancing decision-making and productivity. Leaders who combine human judgment with AI tools can move faster, process more information, and make better strategic decisions. Q5. WHY ARE YOUNGER GENERATIONS QUESTIONING CAPITALISM? Younger generations are questioning capitalism due to rising living costs, job uncertainty, and reduced economic mobility. These challenges make traditional systems feel less fair and less effective than in the past. USEFUL RESOURCES: * Seth Levine on LinkedIn - https://www.linkedin.com/in/sethjlevine/ [https://www.linkedin.com/in/sethjlevine/]  * Foundry Website - https://foundry.vc/ [https://foundry.vc/]  * Seth Levine Book: Capital Evolution - https://www.amazon.com/Capital-Evolution-New-American-Economy/dp/1637747780 [https://www.amazon.com/Capital-Evolution-New-American-Economy/dp/1637747780]  * Unlearn Episode 160 with Brad Feld - https://barryoreilly.com/explore/podcast/give-first-leadership-brad-feld/ [https://barryoreilly.com/explore/podcast/give-first-leadership-brad-feld/]  FOLLOW THE HOST: LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/barryoreilly [https://www.linkedin.com/in/barryoreilly] Personal site: https://barryoreilly.com [https://barryoreilly.com] Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/barryoreillyauthor/ [https://www.facebook.com/barryoreillyauthor/] Twitter/X: https://x.com/barryoreilly [https://x.com/barryoreilly] Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/barryoreilly/ [https://www.instagram.com/barryoreilly/]