Why Slower Marketing Can Drive Stronger Member Engagement

Why Slower Marketing Can Drive Stronger Member Engagement

Recorded live at ASAE’s Marketing, Membership, Communications + Tech Conference, guest host Brittany Lancor of PropFuel sits down with best-selling author and MarketingProfs CCO Ann Handley to discuss the power of “strategic patience” in a culture obsessed with speed. Handley challenges associations to focus on meaningful engagement over vanity metrics, communicate in members’ own language, and prioritize authentic, human-centered messaging. She also shares practical advice on creating more effective email communications and explains why AI is best used to uncover insights and support strategy—not to replace the human connection that drives engagement. Check out the video podcast here: https://youtu.be/nKZs2BI23bQ [https://youtu.be/nKZs2BI23bQ] Associations NOW Presents is produced by Association Briefings [https://associationbriefings.com/].   Transcript Brittany Lancor: [00:00:00] Hello, everyone. Welcome to this month's episode of Associations NOW Presents, an original podcast series from the American Society of Association Executives. I am Brittany Lancor, senior marketing manager of PropFuel. We are recording today from ASAE's MM&C conference here in Washington, DC, where association professionals from across the industry are gathering to share ideas, build connections, and explore what's next for the community. Today, we are so excited to welcome Ann Handley, the world's first chief content officer, best-selling author, and CCO of MarketingProfs. She just delivered the keynote address on the first day of this conference, so we are going to ask some questions. The first question I have for you is where did you get your suit? This is amazing. If you are watching from home, you have to look at this suit. It's wonderful.  Ann Handley: So you're asking who am I wearing?  Brittany Lancor: Yes.  Ann Handley: Is that the question? Yes. Yeah, first of all, [00:01:00] thanks for having me. I'm really excited to be here with all of you, be here with you. So who am I wearing? Today I am wearing Alice + Olivia, and I'll tell you, my biggest stress today was not even the keynote, it was, do I include the bow? Brittany Lancor: I love it. Ann Handley: Or do I leave it off? It's detachable.  Brittany Lancor: The bow was the great choice.  Ann Handley: So I don't know, I went for it, and I like the way it kinda waves around on stage a little bit,  Brittany Lancor: like- Yeah ... I'm prancing around and doing whatever. Yes. It looked great. Yeah. Okay, next question. Oh, yeah, I guess the questions now. Who are you? Help us, like give a quick introduction of who you are, help the audience understand who we're talking with today.  Ann Handley: So yeah, obviously Ann Handley, chief content officer of MarketingProfs. I've been in marketing for a million years, a million dog years. That was like a million plus years. I founded a company called ClickZ ages ago, which is one of the first sources of digital marketing at a time when digital marketing was a sort of brand-new thing, and from there founded MarketingProfs, and I've written a few books about marketing and content, particularly Everybody Writes, which is a [00:02:00] Wall Street Journal bestseller. It's been translated into 19 different languages. The whole ethos of that is really helping marketers, not just content marketers, but all marketers and all businesses really figure out, how do we communicate in a way that's authentic and real, and uniquely us? And honestly, that's a message that we need more than ever now- Yeah in the age of AI. So yeah, author, entrepreneur. Speaker, obviously, and yeah, just friend of Brittany.  Brittany Lancor: Yeah? Yeah. And did I see you're also a dog mom?  Ann Handley: Oh, yeah. Most important thing. Yeah. Yeah, my Cavalier King Charles Spaniel, his name is Augie. He is a stage five clinger. I love him so much, and he loves me just even more. Because love is just that. Do you have a dog?  Brittany Lancor: I have two.  Ann Handley: Oh, you do?  Brittany Lancor: Yes.  Ann Handley: What kind?  Brittany Lancor: They're mutts. One's a terrier, blue heeler mix.  Ann Handley: Oh, wow.  Brittany Lancor: And the other is a pit bull terrier mix.  Ann Handley: What are their names?  Brittany Lancor: Archie and Pepper.  Ann Handley: Okay. Yeah. This is the information that you're here for, people. This is. Archie, Pepper, and Augie. Just-  Brittany Lancor: Yes ...  Ann Handley: remember that.  Brittany Lancor: Keep that in mind. Yeah. Okay, [00:03:00] so I am actually so excited to talk with you about all of the things related to the keynote.  Ann Handley: Yeah.  Brittany Lancor: So MM&C is Membership Marketing and Communications. And we also have tech as a part of this conference, right? Yes. So the marketing piece of things is so relevant to the audience that's here and the audience at home. So your keynote is about strategic patience in an, in this instant results world. We're so ready for things instantly, right? So for association who are under pressure to do more, and move faster, not always with more resources, how do you decide what should move fast and what is okay to move slower? Ann Handley: Yeah. So that's such a huge issue right now. So here's the deal. So marketing, and I think business in general, has a sort of addiction to speed, right? And it's like we always want to go faster from a customer or from a member standpoint. We always want to move them from, from the first time they hear about us to signing up for us [00:04:00] faster and faster. It's very much a treadmill that we're on. And it's easy to say, "Oh, that's because of AI." AI has just tossed rocket fuel on that impulse. But the truth is that marketing and business has always had this sort of addiction to speed. But you can look at anything that we do. It's like we always think that faster is better. And so my whole philosophy is that with my experience of being in marketing for 25 years, is that faster is not always better, and that I'm challenging the convention that, that we need to always think about the fastest way to do things because sometimes the fastest way is not the best way. Yeah. And so, so in answer to your question, the idea of, you know, when should we move fast and when shouldn't we, that's essentially what my whole keynote unpacked, and it comes down to how, to a couple of things. Number one, how we're measuring marketing, how we're measuring the impact that we have. And I think we need to think about it a little differently 'cause a lot of marketing is measured according to very specific [00:05:00] metrics that look at results, how fast we were able to do something. How did, did people click? Did they download? Did they join? Did they renew? And yeah, all that is important, but there's a lot of other smaller signals before that, that I think if we pay attention to, can start to inform the very question that you asked, like when do we move fast and when do we move slow? To give you a really specific example, one of the things that we don't look at enough in marketing is not the sugar rush metrics of those sort of did they do this or did they do that, or did they act, but before that, like the emotional resonance of it. You know, are we connecting with people who we wanna connect with? Do they feel inspired by us? Not just do they wanna buy, but what kind of language do they use? And so in the keynote today, I shared a framework for how do we move away from those sugar rush metrics of marketing and into something that's more, more substantive that measures the resonance of our programs. And by the way, like I just, I feel a need to mention this because I'm in marketing, but I have a new book coming out [00:06:00] around this topic in February of 2027. It's called ASAP: As Slow As Possible, When to Take the Long Road in a Shortcut World. It's about this very topic of marketing, but also it's broader than that because I think especially where AI is encouraging us to... Not encouraging us, like demanding in a lot of ways that we move faster. I think at the same time- The opposite is also true, right? That there are moments when we need to specifically step away from it, slow ourselves down, and just say, "Okay, here's a situation that matters to us as an organization, or that matters to me as a person." Brittany Lancor: Yeah. There's so much to unpack there, though, too, and I think the other piece of it is there are certain things that are going to take time. Yeah. So, and my background is marketing as well, so all of this resonates so much with me. Yes. There, the s- it's the slow game, right? Yeah. So, you wanna go as fast as possible, but like you had said, you need to figure out how to make a message resonate with an [00:07:00] audience, and sometimes that takes time. Ann Handley: And the thing is, this is not anti-speed. I love speed. I'm addicted to it just as much as anybody else. And so it's not a slowdown all the time, uh, but it's when speed becomes the only point that we get into trouble. And so I think it's that distinction that you make. Yeah, sometimes do more, move faster, but sometimes know when to pull back. And that knowing when, through either permission or recognizing those moments, is essentially what I'm, I've been obsessed with lately. And honestly, I've been thinking about this for ,no joke, 10 years. I first started talking about this at an industry event in 2016. On the main stage I talked about it, and I saw it then as very much like a marketing thing, which is content marketing specifically, around how we're creating content, how we're connecting with others, like how we're thinking about building audiences. I saw it then in a very tiny way, but the more that I started thinking about it, and the more that I started seeing signals from elsewhere, and then AI comes in and throws rocket fuel on this whole situation, and I'm like, "Oh, gosh- Yeah ... [00:08:00] now is the time." So yeah, you could say I've been writing this book for, for 10 years, and it finally is happening,  Brittany Lancor: So amazing. Congrats.  Ann Handley: Thanks. Yeah, I'm excited. I'm excited for it to come out. Brittany Lancor:  I'm really excited too. So one of the things you mentioned, veering away from one of the questions that I have next. You mentioned signals. And again, that's  another thing resonating with me, because that's something that's been popular in the association space is like, what are some signals that you look for in the marketing side of things that stand out to you? Ann Handley: So yeah, a couple things that I think we ... Sometimes they're the very smallest things, too. For example, some signals that, that I think about, they fall into three different buckets, I guess I would call them. One would be the impact that your work is having. The other thing is the echo that it has, so the sort of resonance that it has. So just some very specific ways of thinking about these three things, of these things differently. So one of them is, just to get really elemental and basic about it, would be looking at things like a scroll depth on an email newsletter, looking at the response rate on an email newsletter, for [00:09:00] example, or any of your programs or any of your assets. And by that, it's somebody literally hitting reply and writing back to you. Another way to think about what the response rate is call- what I call the OWBR, O-W-B-R, or the Open to Write Back Rate. That's specific to email, of course. And encouraging those conversations. So an email newsletter becomes less about the news and more about the letter, more about how do we actually connect with somebody? How do we actually build those relationships? Because the thing is, people don't decide to join or engage with you because they've heard about you. They decide to join or engage with you because they feel a connection. And so, I think it's important to surface those connections, and we don't do a great job in marketing at that now. And the good news is that AI can help you surface some of those things. Yes. But yeah, it's, that's a very specific example. Another is if you're looking at echo, for example, how do we think about that? What are the signals we look for there? Look at the language that your members or would-be members are using, [00:10:00] things like inspired, things like reassured, things like I feel smarter. Some specific words that you hear either through customer service or sales conversations or when people write back to you. And by the way, this, I'm, we're talking about this a- specific to associations, but I do this all the time, like even as part of my own email newsletter. Yeah. I look for these moments because the job of my- newsletter is to not just sell stuff or convince people that they should buy from me, but instead to nurture that relationship. And so I think it's just thinking about your programs and your assets with a, in a different way. Again, to get away from tho- that sort of, the metrics matter, like the basic metrics matter, but at the same time, think of them more, more broadly and put the two together to get a fuller picture-  Brittany Lancor: Yeah ... of how your programs are resonating. Yeah. I like the echo effect. Yes. I think that, so prior to working in my current role, I'm on the vendor side now, but I worked for associations in the Chicagoland area, and [00:11:00] one thing I've noticed associations get really stuck on is this idea of talking in their own voice instead of leaning into the voice of the member. Yes. And there's so much power to that, 'cause as you were talking about, people wanna feel like they belong, they wanna feel like they're a part of something that, like, is suitable for them. And one way to do that is to talk how your members talk. Yeah. Instead of get into this really fancy, like, using jargon that they just don't use, how can you talk with your members in a way that they're speaking? And that's all about asking them questions, getting feedback from them-  Ann Handley: Yeah ...  Brittany Lancor: in their own words, figuring out, just having conversations with them. Yeah.  Ann Handley: Yeah. How are they referring to certain things? For sure, and I think there's easy ways to do that. A lot of times marketers or businesses will say to me, "Yeah, but we don't have the staff to do that. We don't have the people to do that." And I'm just saying, look at what you're already doing. Mm-hmm. Choose those moments that are gonna, that are gonna resonate the most and have that sort of echo quality to them. Yeah. And as you say, just tweak things a little differently. Using social media, for example. Maybe instead of having a post [00:12:00] come from an association, because the reality is, no shade, but nobody wants to have a relationship with an association. They wanna have a relationship with their people. Think about your director, executive director, your board, like all of those people become these sort of ambassadors for your message. Right. Having, right, like people, that is your frontline. It's not on social, for example. Yeah. It's not your association itself. And then using very human language. Yes. One of the things that I do a lot is I will post something on LinkedIn. I write like a person, because I am a person. Yeah. Spoiler. Real human being here. Just saying, just saying. And then I look to see in the comments. To your point, like how are people talking back to me? What are they saying in a way that can inform maybe how I think about things? Nor are they agreeing with me. I'm not talking about the people who just write, "Great post," or who robo-comment Feedback with AI. Yeah, but the people who just add comments in their own voice, and I look at the, not so much the substance of the comment, although, like I look at that [00:13:00] too, but just the words they use, the language they use, the way they describe things. You can get a lot of sort of intelligence from that. Yes. And so, yeah, that's just a simple way of doing it. And the other thing I'd say too is to your point about speaking in a more, like human voice, like one of the easy things that I think associations can do is have your communications come from a person, like an actual person- Yeah ... not just the association. Yes. Right down to the, like small  Brittany Lancor: things, because signals, right? Ann Handley: Yeah. The email address that you use. There shouldn't be noreply@association.com, or even newsletter@association.com. Yeah. It should come from Barbara or Philip or Jasmine or anybody who happens to be, give someone the role of hosting at your newsletter is how I think about it. Yeah. Almost like an emcee. And there's lots of evidence out there that the more personal your newsletter is, the more, the better it'll perform, the more you resonate. And so just some simple things like that, some simple practical things that I think you can do [00:14:00] differently-  Brittany Lancor: Yeah ...  Ann Handley: to inspire the, a, a deeper level of connection, and ultimately commitment.  Brittany Lancor: Yes. And as someone with a large newsletter list- Yeah ... I feel like that's good feedback for the people who are listening. Ann Handley: I'm telling you, it's like people always say to me, like I have about 50,000, 51,000 people on my email list. Amazing. And people are like, "How did you do that?" And yeah, I did that. I just, I'm like, I'm just my own weird, nerdy self. Yeah. And I just write to one person at one time is how I think about it, because think about the person who's receiving your newsletter, right? They're not sitting in an auditorium full of people, so it's not dear friends, it's dear friend. It's one person, one time. They're sitting on their couch, scrolling through their phone. They're sitting at their desk on Monday morning maybe, whenever it is. But literally picture them in your mind, and think about the one problem or issue that you're trying to help or solve  Brittany Lancor: for them-  Ann Handley: I'm telling you, it changes the way you communicate. I love it.  Brittany Lancor: I'm doing a session tomorrow, and one of the questions is, like, how would you approach this communication-  Ann Handley: Yeah ...  Brittany Lancor: [00:15:00] if you were speaking to, if you had an association of one person? If you were speaking to one member, what would that look like? You probably wouldn't send an email from membership@association.org. You would send it from brittany@association.org, 'cause I wanna build that connection with you. And I think a really good takeaway for associations in this aspect would be so many associations have volunteers that they can lean onto. These people volunteer actively, they raise their hand, they wanna be involved. Yeah. You can lean on those people to ask them to review communications or even build some communications so that you're speaking in the voice of the member,  Ann Handley: which or could you give them a guest editor once a month or whatever. It's one of your members. It's a way to surface them and reward them for their volunteer. You can obviously help them- Yeah ... with that, but yeah, I think there's lots of ways to do that. The pushback that I sometimes get is, "Oh, we're gonna make a superstar out of this one person, and it'll be more their brand than our brand," and do not worry about that. I'm just like, "I'm gonna look right at you, and I'm gonna say do not worry about that. It's [00:16:00] not gonna happen." The New York Times, for example, massive list, massive brand. Yeah. Their morning news, their Morning Morning Edition newsletter comes from one person, who writes a specific letter to me as I'm sitting on my couch scrolling through it, or in bed or wherever I happen to still be, just looking at the day's news, and it's one person. It used to come from a guy named David Leonhardt, and he was the... But when The New York Times made the shift in 2020, it was directly in response to the pandemic, because they felt like they needed to give a sort of human face at a time when we were all very disconnected. So yeah, 2020 they made this shift. The New York Times did. And they installed David Leonhardt as the emcee or the host of the newsletter, if you will. David has since left. He's since gone on to do his own thing. He's left The New York Times completely. I don't even know where he went. You know why? 'Cause I didn't follow David Leonhardt there for The Times, and don't worry about it. Brittany Lancor: Yeah.  Ann Handley: You, don't worry about it. You get it.  Brittany Lancor: Just don't worry about it. [00:17:00] The viewers at home. I think this segues into another question I have for you. So you highlight judgment and trust- Yeah ... as the real keys to connection. Yeah. What would you say are a few practical ways that associations can earn trust through their communications? Especially when one thing you're, you will hear consistently from associations is that members tune out from messages, because they're overwhelmed with this noise of everything else that's going on, or this idea that- Even one specific association sends me too many emails as a member. I think you've touched on it a little bit prior to sending from a person rather than a department or an organization. What other ways?  Ann Handley: I mean, it's a little controversial, but send less. I think no one is ever sitting around and thinking, "God, I wish I had more email. Why don't I get more email? I need to sign up for more email newsletters. I need to sign up for more stuff." No one is ever thinking that. No, not once. And I think doing less with more intention is one way to do that. Obviously, there's a [00:18:00] point where there is gonna be diminishing returns, but I think we have this sense that this sort of treadmill that we've been on, we send three days a week. Look at your data, look at what is actually resonating with your audience, and lean into that. And maybe you don't need to send, yeah, three times a week, or if you do, maybe you reserve it for those moments when it's really important and it's really important messaging. So yeah, so I think send less. I know Jay Schwedelson is here. He's your email guy. He and I don't necessarily agree on this 100%, 'cause I think Jay is like, "Just keep sending. Just keep hammering." And I'm like, "Dude, I love you, but no." So  Brittany Lancor: sorry, you gotta have that balance in life, right?  Ann Handley: Yeah. Because again, I think if you're going to take the time to build those connections, you make your email newsletter or at your email worth opening, and so that takes a little bit of time and effort. Like for example, I send my own email newsletter every fortnight. That's every two weeks if you're not in the UK, which of course you're not. But every two weeks, and I don't use bi-weekly, by the way. Do you know why? Why? Because bi-weekly means either- [00:19:00] Yes ... twice a week or every... What is that? So anyway, I send- Every other every fortnight, which is every two weeks. It's a very specific word that means only that, and the reason I do that is because I don't have the capacity, just the ability to write more frequently than that, and that's truly okay. And do you know what people say to me a lot of times on sign up? This is the other thing, actually, this goes back to your question about how do you build that connection. Yeah. All right, let me finish my thought, and then I'll h- Okay ... circle back to that. Sorry. As a- No,  Brittany Lancor: We never know. We're getting messy. That's okay. The best way to do it.  Ann Handley: So people write back to me and say, "I appreciate the fact that you only send every two weeks." Because again, people don't need more email. Sure. So that's a big piece of feedback that I do tend to get. Again, like echo, right? I'm looking for that. I'm like, "Okay, that's good. That means that my stuff is resonating." And two-week cadence, totally fine. Fortnightly m- cadence, totally fine. If you learn nothing else today, learn that fortnightly needs to, needs our love. Brittany Lancor: Learn that fortnightly means every two weeks.  [00:20:00]  Ann Handley: Exactly. No. What I was gonna say to you is when you're asking about the ways that we can strengthen our relationships with our, through email specifically, one of the things that I think is vastly undervalued is when someone does raise their hand, sign up for your email newsletter, they are giving over your email a- their email address. Yeah. That is a moment where you will never have more opportunity for just stronger connection- Yeah ... with that person, that one person. And so what do you do with that opportunity? 58% of brands out there, not just associations, but all brands, send a welcome email. Which is crazy. 58, that's a huge opportunity. And I think what's important there, though, is don't just send a welcome email, like, "Thanks for signing up. We appreciate you. Love, comma, association." I think instead, that's your opportunity to say, "Thank you so much for signing up. Welcome." Either, "Here's what to expect," or yeah, "Here's what to expect. Here's how often you'll hear from us." Brittany Lancor: Yeah. " Ann Handley: And then one thing I'd like to know from [00:21:00] you," and make it a super simple ask. Have them hit reply right back to you, right at the beginning, and it can be something silly. I have a colleague who has his own email newsletter who asks, "What's your favorite restaurant in your city?" And he literally keeps a database that when he visits that city, he knows what restaurants to go to. Amazing. That's a fun sort of question, but how do you not answer that? If you got that email, you would be like, "Oh, I gotta tell them about-" Something, whatever your favorite restaurant is. Yeah. Davio's or whatever. I have to just say that my questions are, I ask two questions when you sign up for my email newsletter, and if you haven't, you really should, just so you can experience this. Yeah, test it out. Test it. That's the way. I ask two questions. The first question is, how did you find me? Yes.  Brittany Lancor: Why is that? Always good to know.  Ann Handley: Yeah, it's really helpful because I like to know who is referencing my work, who is suggesting me. Maybe it's from my talk here today, but maybe it's not. Maybe it's they just saw me randomly on LinkedIn. It helps me understand who's recommending me and what [00:22:00] kinds of people, or h- or how they're finding me. Well, it's like what's working and what isn't. Exactly. Exactly. Yeah. And then the second thing is I ask them, "What did you hope to learn here?" So sometimes people will give me really insightful things that I can then build future newsletter editions around. But, "What did you hope to learn here?" Super easy questions. And sometimes people are like, "I don't really need to learn anything. I just wanted to say hi." And I'm like, "Great." Yeah. So- See what this is about. Exactly. So I send everybody that sign up. About 62, 63% of people who get that initial welcome email from me specifically open it A s- a smaller subset, maybe half that, so maybe 30%, something like that, write back to me directly and say, "Here's how I found you. Here's what I hope to learn." And then this is key. This is key. I always write back to them. I always say, "Thank you for telling me. I love Jay. I really appreciate the fact that Jay is recommending me." Yeah. And then I say, "And thanks for letting me know what you hope to hear, learn here." Super [00:23:00] simple. Do I have that automated? No, I do not. Could I? Yes, I could, but I don't want to. This is, again, one of those as slow as possible moments, because it's more valuable for me to understand who's recommending me and to start that relationship with a specific subscriber. And I'll tell you, Brittany, people are always blown away. "I can't believe you did that." Now, immediately, people here listening or watching might be like, "We don't have, possibly have the bandwidth for that. We don't have time for that." Here's what I do. I set aside a half hour a week- Mm ... and I batch respond to all of them. I read them all, and I respond to them all directly. That's it. It- half an hour a week. Yeah. Half an hour a week for basically nurturing my audience, and that, to me, is just a choice I've made. It's, you'd be surprised at how many people won't write back. It's not as big of a lift as I think a lot of people think.  Brittany Lancor: No. And for those who genuinely don't have the bandwidth because they have so many members, there are systems that exist. It's incredible how relatable this is to something like [00:24:00] Profitwell. Literally, the, what I like about this email newsletter example is that the onboarding for an email newsletter, so if an association has an email newsletter, the onboarding for that email newsletter is an opportunity to connect with a prospect- Yes and learn more about what they like and what they need and what they're interested in to help them get connected to membership, right? You can also directly translate this into what a new member onboarding process looks like. Yes. So when a new member joins, just like when somebody joins the e-newsletter list, most associations are very quick to be like, "Here are all the really great things that we do. I hope you'll do something with it." And our spiel is always, what if you just ask them a question, and A, help the organization understand what are they looking to learn from you? Yeah. What's most beneficial? And then you can build trust with each individual member at a larger scale, because you can then send them on a journey. We help automate the process, if that's what somebody would choose to do, because if, again, if it's at a larger scale. But [00:25:00] there's so much benefit to really asking a single question- Yes ... and learning from them, and then, again, building trust based off of showing them a response that tells them, "Oh, we hear you. Here's how we can help you."  Ann Handley: Yeah, and I think the key is ask a question that is stupid easy to respond to. Yes. Don't ask them a hard question. No. It feels like homework. Just ask them a dumb, fun question. Yep. Not that my questions about, how did you find me and what do you hope to learn? Those are solid questions, but it doesn't take a lot of thought. They can just write back and say, "Uh, I don't know. I want to learn about association marketing." And I'm like, "Great." Yeah. I talk about that once a year, so you know.  Brittany Lancor: Yeah, and then the response is, "Great. Here's something directly relevant to what you're looking for." Right. And that's that trust. Yeah, and if you were,  Ann Handley: if you could actually build it out into more of a nurturing engagement path, right? Right. Where you could say, "Oh, you're looking for this? Here's a resource specifically for you." Yeah. I don't do that because I'm functioning at a different level, but an association could absolutely do that.  Brittany Lancor: Yeah.  Ann Handley: Yeah.  Brittany Lancor: And if you ever get to a [00:26:00] point where you want to do that, we can help you.  Ann Handley: Okay, there we go. This is perfect. Great. We turned this into a sales opportunity  Brittany Lancor: for me. For you. For all of us, everyone's invited. So you also talk about communication, that all of these are really connected, right? Yeah. So you talk about communication that helps members feel seen and valued and really eager to belong. So what does that look like in terms of, I guess we're getting specific to what we were just talking about, but what does the tone look like? What do content choices look like? What channels are you using in a way that doesn't feel too fake or marketing-y-  Ann Handley: Yeah ...  Brittany Lancor: So to speak?  Ann Handley: Yeah. I don't think there's any magic to this. I think you're probably already using the channels that you need to use. I think it's how you show up that makes all the difference. Sure. And if you're using social, use it as a discovery channel, number one, but also using it as a way to show your voice, showcase your people. Start that connection with a potential member or your existing member so that they will, they will be part of your [00:27:00] group, or they will renew. Keep that as an ongoing thing, or volunteer, whatever your conversion metric is. And so yeah, I think it's just thinking through each channel and figuring out, how do we use this more effectively? And if they're not working, dropping them. You don't have to be everywhere. You just have to figure out the ones that are gonna resonate for you. The one that I wouldn't not use, is that right? Wouldn't have not u- I would use, would be a w- We could simplify that a little. Yeah, say the one that, I know. It's funny to be in communication and just like- ... this is complicated on purpose. I wouldn't not use. This does serve a purpose though. The emphasis of that. Yes Email for sure. Email is... You have sessions on email at ASAE. It's, I will, I don't want to say I will die on that hill because I find such joy in, in email. This is weird enough to say, but it's so true. I hate that phrase, die on this hill. I want to celebrate on that hill. Yeah. Because email is actually- Live on that hill for a little bit. I want to live on it forever. I want to pitch a tent and have my dog there and-  Brittany Lancor: Yeah, build a fire, because it's a great... Invite  Ann Handley: all the people there. [00:28:00] Email is an amazing channel, and I think always will be. But I think that most of us are not using it well. And so- Yeah ... if you're gonna start anywhere, I would start there. And then secondarily, social as a discovery platform. Like I said, a lot of people are using social as a conversion platform. That's really where it falls apart. It's not a conversion platform. It's a way to, to get people to find out about your organization, to feel like they can know you, get to know you a little bit more, and then ultimately raise their hand to opt into something, to volunteer to be part of your group in one way or another. Yeah. A lot of times I think people use social incorrectly. Also, it's, it's really a way more of a discovery platform than anything else. Yeah. And then just everything else that you're doing. You know, like just webinars or podcasts or whatever it is that you're doing, like always just look for those moments where you can add in that sort of a human element. Brittany Lancor: The human touch.  Ann Handley: Yeah  Brittany Lancor: Yeah, I 100% agree. I think oftentimes people are saying, like, "Email is dead now," and it's [00:29:00] not. No. It's just that it's been used inefficiently. And so how do you use it in a way in which- Yeah ... you are still relevant? Yeah. The messages that you're sending are still relevant to- Yeah ... the individuals. Ann Handley: Exactly, and I, I think another thing that you need to keep in mind about email is that, yes, I think email is 100% still relevant, but the bar has gotten a little bit higher- Yeah ... for email because of AI. For example, we're already starting to see, some of us, uh, already have our inboxes managed by robots. Not everybody, but I think eventually that's kind of where things are headed, where what's gonna happen is your in- your email arrives in somebody's inbox, and a robot decides, based on the parameters that you set, but a robot will decide, "Okay, this gets your attention. This is something that I can just handle on my own, this autonomously. This is something I add to your calendar," whatever the case. But there's another level or layer between you and a would-be member or your existing member right now, and that's really important to be [00:30:00] aware of, just the way that AI is changing the inbox specifically. And so you might think, "That means that email is dead. Like, how can we possibly break through?" The thing is, it used to be about deliverability. The metric used to be we need to be able to get into the inbox. Deliverability was the big issue. Now, it's really about selection. It's about someone choosing to hear from you. That only adds pressure to, or adds opportunity I should say, not pressure. It's opportunity to do all the things that we're talking about, like having it come from a real person, making sure that you are connecting with one person at one time, making it feel like, "Oh, this is something that I wanna hear from Brittany," or, "I wanna hear from me," or whoever. It only makes it more important that you- Yes think about how personal and how inherently just emotional you can make something feel.  Brittany Lancor: Yes. Yeah. Wonderful. I feel like we could go on for- We can ...  Ann Handley: forever. What are you  Brittany Lancor: doing? Let's- Yeah, sorry. Yeah. We're gonna just join this podcast series all the time. Okay, one last question because- Okay ... we had, we were just talking about AI. Yeah. So this [00:31:00] one's pretty relevant. I feel like some associations are still a little bit hesitant to jump on the AI bandwagon. Yeah. They're still trying to figure out what it means for membership and marketing and communications. So what would be a smart starting line for AI that still protects the human voice- Yeah and the, the voice of the member, right? And what are some common missteps that you're seeing for people that are using AI?  Ann Handley: So, yeah. Okay, let's start with the missteps first, which kind of informs the rest of the question, but I think the worst thing you can do is to start experimenting with AI and having it write all of your communications for you, and then editing it. I am vehemently opposed, violently opposed to that perspective for a few reasons. Number one, because we are in the communications business. We are creative, we are storytellers, we are communicators. And so the idea that you're going to outsource that skill that we inherently possess and have nurtured for so long to a robot, I [00:32:00] am completely just, no, just don't. Is it fast? Is it efficient? Yeah. But again, it goes back to our initial question here. That's not the point, right? Don't outsource those original first drafts. Any first draft that's important, don't outsource it to AI, number one. I see it all the time. Don't outsource any, even the first draft of a social post, of an email newsletter, of anything. Can it help you with a landing page? Sure. I don't care about that. But I think it's important to choose those moments when it's smart to involve AI because it's faster and efficient, it can write a landing page like nobody's business. But also, don't outsource those moments that are important moments of connection for you and your audience. So that's the first thing. In terms of first steps, getting on board, I think the best thing is to just, you know, play around with it. Just see what it can do for you, and then be very intentional about how you use it. Saying no to AI is also an option. Yeah. Not all the time necessarily, because it is truly useful. For example, the framework that we were just talking about a few minutes [00:33:00] ago There's, AI can be very helpful at surfacing some of those metrics for you, at surfacing some of those emotional moments and signals that are, that were hard to get to before. In fact, in my keynote, I shared a prompt that you can use with AI to draw out some of these insights. That's an incredibly useful use of AI. Being, but using generative AI, so that's on the data side of things, but using generative AI to, to write for you, I think when it's important, it's important to say no. And yeah, I think it's important to, to have a distinction. What are we using AI for? Are we using it for data? Are we using it for generative AI, for writing, or are we looking for it us- using it for forecasting? For forecasting and for data management, great use of it. Huge help, especially at an event like this where the technology folks can help you figure out how to do that. But on the generative AI end of things, like using it for writing or generating content, I'm just, I'm not a fan, especially for the first draft. It's helpful after you write a first draft to then ask AI, [00:34:00] "Would this resonate with somebody who's a would-be member who has this particular personality who is looking for this?" And how do you know all that? It's because you've been paying attention to all the other signals that you're getting. Yeah. So I think it can be helpful there. It can help you tweak language. But I think just in terms of generating it wholesale, just not a fan.  Brittany Lancor: Wonderful. Yeah. Anne, it's been lovely. I feel like we need to have a part two, because we only got through half of the questions that we originally had. But thank you so much. I feel like you had some absolutely wonderful insights for everybody, very specific to associations, too. It's, for-profits and nonprofits are not so different after all, so. Not so different.  Ann Handley: I know.  Brittany Lancor: Thank you, Ann, for your time. Thank you.  Ann Handley: You did wonderful.  Brittany Lancor: Thanks, everyone, for listening to this episode of Associations NOW Presents. Join us each month as we explore key topics relevant to association professionals just like this, discuss the challenges and the opportunities in the field today, and highlight the significant impact associations have on the economy, the US, and the world.[00:35:00]  Thanks, everyone.

Milwaukee's Rise as a Meetings and Culinary Destination

In this episode of Associations NOW Presents: Industry Partner Edition, guest host Sharon Pare of HighRoad Solutions sits down with Leslie Johnson, chief sales officer at Visit Milwaukee, to explore why Milwaukee is gaining attention as a premier destination for meetings and events. Johnson discusses the city's recent growth, driven by the expanded Baird Center, a thriving culinary scene, and major events that have showcased Milwaukee on a national stage. The conversation highlights what sets Milwaukee apart from larger convention cities, including its walkability, affordability, authentic neighborhoods, and collaborative hospitality community. Johnson also shares insights into the city's "Flavor Era" campaign, new entertainment and cultural developments, and the experiences that make Milwaukee memorable for visitors. From lakefront festivals and iconic attractions to local dining recommendations, the episode offers a fresh look at a city that's quickly becoming a favorite among event planners and attendees alike. Check out the video podcast here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WwbNMxvH6nc [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WwbNMxvH6nc]   This episode is sponsored by Visit Milwaukee [https://www.visitmilwaukee.org/]. Associations NOW Presents is produced by Association Briefings [https://associationbriefings.com/].   Transcript Sharon Pare: [00:00:00] Welcome to this episode of Associations NOW Presents: Industry Partners Series, an original podcast series from the American Society of Association Executives. I'm Sharon Paré, partnerships director at High Road, a HubSpot agency, co-host of Rethink Association, and your host of this series throughout the year. This episode today is sponsored by Visit Milwaukee. Today, I'm joined by Leslie Johnson, chief sales officer at Visit Milwaukee. Leslie, could you give us the highlight reel and tell us what you're all about before we jump into it?  Leslie Johnson: Absolutely. Thank you so much, Sharon, for having me today. Sure, yeah. I'm Leslie Johnson. I'm the chief sales officer of Visit Milwaukee. I've been there just a little over six and a half years. Prior to getting into the space of the DMO side of the industry, I grew up in the hotel and restaurant industry for my entire career. Started with Hyatt Hotels, then decided to get into the restaurant side of the [00:01:00] business. I worked for Capital Grill restaurants, which has ultimately led me to Milwaukee. I had the ability to open that restaurant in Milwaukee a little over 21 years ago. And then while in Milwaukee, I made a few career changes. I worked for Marcus Hotels and Resorts, where I really leaned into learning more on the hotel operations. I was a general manager, director of sales and marketing, and then also extended that career into the resort side of the business and worked for Geneva National Resort, which is a very predominantly golf-focused organization. And then that's what led me to Visit Milwaukee. So there's my quick, 30-second elevator speech on my career. Sharon Pare: I love your 30-second elevator speech, but there are two things you left out, but I'm gonna do them for you since you didn't- Okay ... put your little accolades in. But since you've been on Visit Milwaukee, in 2022 you were recognized as the Milwaukee Business Journal Women of Influence, as well as most recently in 2025, the [00:02:00] International Association of Exhibitors and Events Outstanding Marketing and Salesperson of the Year. So woo- Good job, Leslie  Leslie Johnson: Thank you. Both of those awards were because of the relationship and partnership that we have within our organization and the marketing team, and the Women of Influence award had a lot to do with how we came out of COVID and the strategies that we put into place to really stand out and really elevate Milwaukee onto a different level than it had ever been elevated on before post-COVID. And then same with, yeah, the IAE award was all of the great things our marketing team and our sales team has done since the expansion of our convention center in 2024. Definitely. Those are team awards.  Sharon Pare: For sure, but you have a little bit of each aspect of that business, and I think that's a lot of the changes that Milwaukee is seeing right now, which I know we're about to dig into. I will say, and you're probably like, "Oh, we hear this too much," but one of my favorite shows growing up was That '70s Show. Okay. So every time I was th- I was thinking about Milwaukee, I keep thinking about that end credit, when [00:03:00] they're like, "Hello, Wisconsin" in the theme song at the beginning. Yeah. That's what I keep thinking about as we were getting into this podcast. But-  Leslie Johnson: But usually it's Laverne & Shirley and Happy Days, so I'm glad that you went '70s Show.  Sharon Pare: Okay, we're changing it up a little bit, right? And I think Milwaukee's changing it up, too. And I know that's what we're gonna talk about today, and that's really the theme around our conversation. I know Milwaukee's really having a moment. I know we're gonna talk about the expanded Baird Center. Some Michelin recognition, what, which I know is always a big deal no matter what city you're in, but especially in somewhere like Milwaukee. And the growing culinary and cultural scene. So Leslie, from your perspective, what do you think is driving that momentum right now? Leslie Johnson: It's so great that Milwaukee is absolutely having this moment. It- it's something that's been in the making for so many years. We're just now seeing the results of a lot of the, you know, the investments that have come together. With the expansion of the convention center, the incredible culinary growth that you just mentioned there, too. And a lot of this comes in tandem [00:04:00] with hosting such large events like the national, with the RNC that we hosted in '24, which seems like forever ago. As well as a couple of industry events, hosting Connect Marketplace. It really helped us step confidently into our identity, and I really think it gave us the ability to give the exposure of our city to people that have would never have had an opportunity or, I don't want to say a reason, there's always a reason to go somewhere, but- Yeah ... oftentimes as we know in our industry, the first time that they're gonna experience a city is through a meeting, through a conference. They had to come for a reason, and then they fell in love with the city, and we heard that over and over again every time that we host any sort of industry event. And so it's great to just see that our name is being recognized nationally in so many other ways, and it's giving us that ability to have Michelin also-  Sharon Pare: Yeah ...  Leslie Johnson: recognize us and say, "You know what? They do have a very strong culinary scene there in Milwaukee, and we need to go see what it's all about."  Sharon Pare: So let's talk about the Michelin stuff now, right? [00:05:00] I think that there is this campaign that Milwaukee's running right now called the Flavor Era, which I think is a really cool concept. Can you share a little bit more about when you say the Flavor Era, tell us a little bit more about that.  Leslie Johnson: Sure. Yeah, so the Flavor Era campaign is really Milwaukee embracing who we are in a bold and confident way, right? When we talk about flavor, we mean everything that gives our city personality, from our culinary scene to our neighborhoods, our festivals, our people, and honestly, the way visitors feel when they're here. We're not trying to just copy another city. We've leaned into what makes us distinctively different, what makes us Milwaukee, and I think that authenticity is really, wow, what today's traveler and meeting planners are looking for. When you think about the culinary scene and look at the culinary scene in Milwaukee, we are not a chain-heavy city. And I, as I talked about earlier, I brought a big chain to downtown Milwaukee, and it was a challenge 'cause Milwaukee is, "No, we don't do chains. We have some amazing creative chefs here in Milwaukee." And Ca- Capital Grille did a great job of [00:06:00] incorporating themselves into the market and really embracing the local culture and the people to build that restaurant to what it is today. We've stayed true to that, and from the culinary side of things, but yeah, it's more of it's like that swagger. We were always that Midwest, like shy, like we're not overconfident. We're not gonna speak loud and proud. We're just gonna be here in the corner, and Milwaukee's completely changed that tune.  Sharon Pare: Yeah. You started getting into this about the flavor, right? Yeah. And you know, how, what it means for meeting planners, and I know a lot of that is centered around the food and some of that, the local experiences, the local culinary experiences. But is there a little bit more to that flavor that the meeting planners and the attendees will love about Milwaukee that you wanna share?  Leslie Johnson: I think for planners and attendees, you know, flavor really means the experience that feels memorable and is rooted in the place instead of the intangibles, right? Like, in Milwaukee, attendees are not just gonna be sitting in a room, meeting room all day. They're gonna be walking around the lakefront between sessions, discovering incredible restaurants, experiencing our festivals [00:07:00] and really interacting with our hospitality community, which is genuinely welcoming individuals. I hear that all of the time from planners of, "We love everything you have about your city. You have all the tangibles," but it's really the people and the way they make you feel and how welcoming they are that they are just so appreciative when they come to our city.  Sharon Pare: That's awesome. And I think that being able to visit a city where it's your first time and you're not really sure what to expect, and finding hospitality that's above and beyond, a lot of the times that's what brings you right back to that city, right? So-  Leslie Johnson: Right. The connections you make and the things that you didn't get to experience. Exactly.  Sharon Pare: The  Leslie Johnson: little things that you did that you're like, "I want more of that." 'Cause you come for a conference, and we've all been guilty of it. We go to the convention center, we go to the hotel, we go back and forth, and maybe we go out for an evening. But when you start to see a lot of these cities, there's so much more to, to experience that you just didn't get an opportunity to do. But that's that flavor we want you coming back for more, right? Yeah. You just gotta come back and taste some more of it.  Sharon Pare: So it, it seems like that evolution of the [00:08:00] brand for Visit Milwaukee also changed how you guys are also approaching sales and partnerships too, right? So how would you say that your messaging and sales strategy has evolved, even in the recent years?  Leslie Johnson: A lot of that evolution changed back in 2020 One, we were one of the only cities when a lot of cities were pushing pause on the growth of their city, their expansion of their convention centers, whatever it might be. Milwaukee was one of those very few cities that stood up and said, "We're gonna conti- continue to move forward. We are gonna approve the expansion of this convention center, and when all of this craziness is over, we're gonna be in a different place, and we're gonna be ready to be a different type of city than we were going into COVID." And so I think that having that commitment from our community and our city leaders has really helped us stand out quite a bit. And with that, though, we had to have a really strong strategy behind it on how are we gonna make sure that we're getting this messaging out there and getting this branding out there into an audience that has seen Milwaukee, they know of it, they're [00:09:00] somewhat familiar with it. But how do we show them that we're something new, we're something fun, we're something bold, and we're proud, and we are gonna show you how proud we are. And we've partnered with such organizations like ASAE to really say, "Help us tell this story because your audience is so important to our city to bring their conferences and their s- their events to Milwaukee because we know that we can take great care of them. We know they're gonna have an amazing time with us, and so we just need help showing that." And part of that is a- in that partnership with ASA, they came to Milwaukee and they experienced it and they said, "You know what? We wanna have our annual conference there in 2034," which for us is a huge win. It is the Super Bowl of conferences for- It really is for our, our industry. And so to have that feather in our cap has just helped catapult us again into another level of meetings and conventions for the city.  Sharon Pare: Absolutely. Now Milwaukee's showing up differently in the industry now because now you will have the Super Bowl for our industry in 2034. I wanted to ask 'cause you mentioned this earlier, but how were big events like the [00:10:00] RNC or CONNECT Marketplace, how did they change perceptions for Visit Milwaukee? Leslie Johnson: From the RNC standpoint, we technically were supposed to host the DNC in 2020, and of course COVID changed all of that. And so for us in a positive thing to have the RNC come to us shortly after and say, "All right. Your city clearly had the infrastructure to, to host the DNC. We're really interested in looking at you for the RNC because of your infrastructure, because Milwaukee could be a great destination for that." And- What that really gave us, it, it gave us the ability to s- have an audience, a worldwide audience. We had people from all different countries reaching out to us, saying how great Milwaukee looks. They did such a great job of showcasing and highlighting the city. But from the RNC standpoint, what they really appreciated about our city is because of how condensed we are as a city, we're very walkable, we're very, it's easy, very easy to get around, that they were able to do their convention at the Fiserv Forum. They were able to utilize our convention center and the theaters that are all right there within walking distance, and create [00:11:00] one secure perimeter for all of those events, which is really convenient for them and their attendees versus multiple venues, multiple security touch points. And so not only from an attendee standpoint was it a phenomenal experience for every one of their delegates that came into the city, but it also showcased so well as you broadcast it out around the world. And so it just, it gave us so many eyeballs on a city that maybe they didn't even know about, or maybe they knew very little about, then they got to see how beautiful of a city we are. So that's it from the RNC standpoint. From Connect, we knew with the expansion of the convention center, we know meeting planners oftentimes are just, they're a little bit hesitant to, to buy something new that they haven't had the opportunity to experience, touch, see, feel, be a part of. And so we knew it was important for us to host some sort of industry event as we opened the convention center. So we opened in May, we hosted in August, so we had a few months to work out the kinks. Sure. But the team just knocked it out of the park. And I'm not gonna say something that's not true. I really have the Connect team that tells me all the time. We've scored the highest of any of their other [00:12:00] conferences that they've had was when they hosted it in, in, in Milwaukee. And I think a lot of it goes back to the genuine people that they got to work with, the experiences that their attendees got to have that were very authentic and unique and different, and it wasn't just your same opening reception at the same ballpark or whatever it might be. We're at the Harley-Davidson Museum, the one and only in the entire world. And so-  Sharon Pare: Wow ...  Leslie Johnson: they got to experience that. And so every trade show we go to to, from that day forward, we are told on a regular basis like, "That was such an amazing conference. You guys really did a great job." And it also drove a lot of business our way too, which obviously was the goal. Sharon Pare: Of course. So these events, the RNC and the CONNECT Marketplace, not only did they put you on the national stage, on the global stage too, there's a lot of eyes on Milwaukee right now. And I think maybe you guys are starting to see a shift, right? 'Cause a lot of these associations are thinking a little bit differently about where they're hosting now. So maybe we could talk about that. Why [00:13:00] are a lot of the associations looking beyond those tier one destinations and considering someone like a tier two?  Leslie Johnson: Sure, yeah. Tier one's definitely, they have, they're important. You're, there's certain conferences that just can't physically fit into smaller destinations. And where we've seen now with either associations rethinking how their annual conferences are gonna look, or is it gonna be more regionalized, or maybe their attendance is shifting. We've really been able to take advantage of a lot of that. And a- again, when you go into a tier one city, you're one of many. You're one of many conferences, meetings, events, leisure activities. There could be a Taylor Swift concert going on. There could be all these things that are impacting their attendee experience as well as their experience. Whereas a sizable association that chooses Milwaukee, you kinda own the city. You are what's most important thing that's going on in our hotel community, at our convention center, our theaters that you may be using for breakouts or general sessions, [00:14:00] to our restaurants. Our restaurants are very involved in what we're doing. From the Visit Milwaukee standpoint and business that's happening at the convention center, they pay very close attention to who's in town to ensure that they're giving the quality service. They're aware of who the attendees are going to be, what they're like, what they might not like, what their agendas are so that they're staffed appropriately. And when you work with a smaller destination, you have that level of involvement from your community that you just don't necessarily get sometimes. No fault from a tier one city. It's not their fault. They're just so big that it's hard to get everybody on that same page, whereas in some of our tier two cities, you definitely get that personalized touch that, and then you get the Midwest hospitality on top of it, so.  Sharon Pare: Yeah, you can't beat the Midwest hospitality. I'm not going to throw any shade on my Northeast folks, but I do live in the Northeast, and it's tough to  Leslie Johnson: come by some of those Midwest hospitality type folks.  Ad Read: Let's take a quick break from our episode sponsor You're invited to experience the rhythm, flavor, and momentum defining Milwaukee right now. At the [00:15:00] center is the award-winning Baird Center anchoring a thriving downtown. From the energy of Landmark Credit Union Live to the highly anticipated Nature & Culture Museum of Wisconsin and traditions like the Wisconsin State Fair, Milwaukee's personality shows up in every corner. We've now stepped boldly into our flavor era from Adidas sneakers that unlock festival access to recognition in the Michelin Guide. And with even more exciting developments on the horizon, you may find yourself planning a visit long before ASAE arrives in 2034. Get a taste now at visitmilwaukee.org/meet. Sharon Pare: It really seems like Visit Milwaukee is really equipped to be able to deliver on all of those expectations. You talked about the hospitality, we talked about the food, we talked about everything just being in this, in this nice little bubble. What would you say are some of the advantages that Milwaukee offers associations specifically? Leslie Johnson: I think it's important. From what I hear from [00:16:00] clients, they wanna work with cities that really work well together, meaning our hotel community to our convention center community to our bureau. We have a great working relationship. And I, I can't say that was always the case, and it's something that has been really a focus of our organization as well as our, our hospitality commun- community in general. But we also have the support of our mayor, our common council. Like, all of our city leaders truly understand the importance of tourism and what it means for our city. And so when we ask for a favor, it is n- rarely is it ever met with any objection. It's absolutely whatever you all need. You need us to be here. You want us to do this. We're here to help and support. And I think that is one thing that really helps Milwaukee stand above and beyond from other cities, because when we're putting together a proposal for the city, everybody is putting their best foot forward to make that happen for that group.  Sharon Pare: It sounds like you have a lot of really great partners that you work with in Visit Milwaukee, and partnerships are truly the way to go when it comes down to it, right? 'Cause you're, it's a team effort for any of these [00:17:00] organizations that are coming in. I have another question, too. But how does Milwaukee balance the affordability for the associations while delivering the premium experience that you're giving to those that come to the city?  Leslie Johnson: I think we're just overall an affordable destination. It goes in realizing that in order for us to capture this business and in order for us to con- remain attractive to these planners is we have to be priced with what their expectations are, too. And n- not saying that we're, we're not managing the ex- we're not delivering on the expectations. It's just we know that we're a tier two city. Their expectation is that we're going to be more affordable. And our restaurants, they're not overpriced. Some of our new restaurants that are just coming on the scene, I was just at, it's called Cassis, which is one of our new restaurants. It's a French-inspired restaurant. And it's fantastic and, but the price point is so approachable for everybody. And, and we try to make sure, 'cause we know that we ha- we have to take care of our locals, too. It's not just [00:18:00] tourism that's filling our restaurants and filling our, our bars and our theaters. It's, it's a, they have a l- a lot of locals, too, and so they wanna make sure that we remain affordable for those individuals, too. And that's just who we are in Milwaukee. We're not trying to be something fancy and expensive. We are approachable, affordable, friendly individuals, so it's just who we are  Sharon Pare: I love that. And I could use a break from these $50 lunches in Washington, DC and come to Milwaukee and not spend that for a weekend. How important are some of the sustainability and inclusion con- consideration for the meeting planners today? I know that there are some certifications that Visit Milwaukee has. Can you share a little bit about that? And I know that those might be some important points that some of our listeners might like to hear a little bit more about. Leslie Johnson: Yeah. I think this is something that, uh, has continually been evolving in our industry for years. And it was important pre-COVID, it's definitely more important these days, and there's definitely a lot of t- conversation around it as we go forward. [00:19:00] And so with the expansion of the convention center, we were very thoughtful on all of the pieces that we included in that convention center to make sure that it was... It had the ability to be gold, LEED Gold certified for the building. And so we're very proud of that. And then we as Visit Milwaukee are also working with Culture City. And actually our city is the one that started the initiative, and Visit Milwaukee is now rolling that out to our hospitality community too, and encouraging them to really take consideration into getting the certification or the Culture City certification for helping and welcoming the in- accessible experiences for all attendees. And we're just in the midst of doing that right now, and our convention center has already gone through it. We wanna make sure that we're always forward-thinking on these topics and these items, and so that everybody that comes into Milwaukee can feel welcome and has the ability to experience the city at the same level of anybody else  Sharon Pare: So I wanna dig into, we talked about food, we talked about the [00:20:00] Michelin-rated restaurants, we talked about supporting a lot of those local restaurants and the chefs at them as well. I wanted to get into the culture o- of the city a little bit more too. What would you say are some of the new developments or openings that are helping reshape Milwaukee's now national stage profile? And beyond that too. Yeah.  Leslie Johnson: So we went through a little bit of development pre-COVID with the expansion, with the re- the new Fiserv Forum, which is where our Milwaukee Bucks played, and also won their championship in 2021. No big deal, right? No big deal, no big deal. It's not like thousands and millions of people were watching that. It was such a great thing for the city. But it left a lot of real estate in and around the Fiserv Forum for development. And the city has done a fantastic job of creating an entertainment district right around the Fiserv Forum, and they just opened up the Landmark Credit Union Live. So it's a concert venue that can accommodate up to about 4,500 people, and a general admission [00:21:00] style. So if it's not a band that's gonna be big enough to be at the Fiserv Forum, this is a great place for those types of acts, bringing more and more activity downtown. But I'm really excited too, we also are opening our, it's gonna be the new Nature and Culture Museum of Wisconsin. So we have our public museum, which will be closing, and then this will be taking in place of that. And it's a beautiful building that is now starting to do hard hat tours. We're super excited to get inside of there. We understand there's gonna be some great event space, some rooftop space. We love our rooftops in the Midwest in the summer. So looking forward to learning more about what that's all gonna look like once it's all come together, and how that's gonna be something that groups and they can book out for receptions or whatnots. And then another fun development that's in the final pieces of is the 120-year-old Harley-Davidson factory building is now- Cool being converted to... They're working with Central Standard, which is one of our local distilleries, in creating, like, an event space as [00:22:00] well as distillery, distilling out in that area. And so again, another new spot that we're gonna be able to promote and utilize for, for groups that, again, another place that, another piece of history that only in Milwaukee can you experience it  Sharon Pare: So something I didn't know about Milwaukee is that Milwaukee has always been known as the city of festivals. Oh. Can you name some of the festivals that you guys, all the fests that Milwaukee has and how does that ... You have a fest for everything. We  Leslie Johnson: have a fest for everything.  Sharon Pare: Yeah. Tell us a little bit more about that and how it translates into the experience for the meeting and event planners too.  Leslie Johnson: Yeah. No, we're so fortunate that really k- kicking off that first weekend in June with PrideFest, every weekend we have some sort of festival that's taking place. Majority of them are gonna be down on the lakefront at the Henry Maier Festival Grounds, which is where Summerfest, which is the wor- world's largest music festival, it takes place every July, June, July [00:23:00] timeframe. And so we have Polish Fest, we have Festa Italiana, we have our Juneteenth festivals down there. Polish Fest. I guess I had Polish. German Fest, which is my favorite 'cause you get the big pretzel and the beer. We have such a German- Gosh ... German community. And then we have a new one coming up this year, which is called the Freshwater Food and Wine Festival, so that's gonna be brand new in September, which I'm excited about. But, and we do find that groups do appreciate having that, those ... They can tail end their ex- their conference into those festivals. People can stay longer, invite their families- Yeah ... come and really get to experience w- so a festival post-conference or pre-conference. I actually have a couple of clients that are coming and pre, be- their conference is right before Summerfest, and so I've got their entire loading team heading over to Summerfest on that Saturday, so. Sharon Pare: Outside of just being in the conference at the convention center, which I know you give an experience outside of that, but this really gives them a true feel [00:24:00] of what Milwaukee's all about, so I think that's really neat- Yeah, exactly ... you were saying.  Leslie Johnson: Or the city of festivals. Sitting at a picnic table, listening to these amazing bands on the- Yeah on the stage overlooking Lake Michigan. It doesn't get much better than that.  Sharon Pare: It really doesn't. So what would you say then surprises first time convention attendees about Milwaukee right now?  Leslie Johnson: They always amazed at how many people, I'll even quote some of them say, "I didn't know you were on the ocean," 'cause we're Because of how large Lake Michigan is, they don't realize it's a lake. That's why we call it the third coast. So it's, it's a little educating sometimes. But yeah, when you first fly into Milwaukee over Lake Michigan, what a beautiful entry into our city that is. You- that often surprises people. The fact that you can Our water, our waterfront is so incredibly accessible too. So it's all owned by the county, and so it's all parks and paths and running paths and walking, bike paths in the marina there. And so those attendees that do have the opportunity to get down there, and we encourage conferences too, if you're gonna [00:25:00] do a 5K, if you're gonna do some sort of fitness or recreational activity, try to get down to the lakefront because of just how beautiful it is, and attendees just really enjoy that. They are oftentimes surprised by the, again, the walkability and the going into any of our bars right there on MLK Drive, right, that's right near the convention center district. You're with the locals immediately. It's not like there are these over-commercialized restaurants or bars. And they always appreciate just that vibe that comes with that whole entertainment area. And obviously the expansion on the Baird Center, I can't say it enough what a beautiful building that is, and the intention that was put into the building of that convention center, people very much appreciate. You just don't feel like you're in a convention center. And so from attendee standpoint, it's much, much appreciated going into an exhibit hall with one, one entire wall is glass, and you get to s- feel like you're outside a little bit or get a little bit of a vibe of the happening outside. Yeah. Versus a dark dungeon.  Sharon Pare: Yes, exactly All right. I wanted to wrap [00:26:00] up with a little lightning round. You've been in Milwaukee for what? 21 years now is what I think I remember you saying, and we'll just start with the first one. Your favorite restaurant. Don't worry, nobody's getting a cut of this, but- Okay. All right.  Leslie Johnson: My, my favorite, my favorite- Your favorite. Yes. It's the Calderone Club. Mama's still in the back making the meatballs, and it is a fantastic Italian dining experience. It's located right by our convention center. It's, it's... If, if you're like, "Where can we go for  Sharon Pare: some great food?" But there are so many great foods, but that's a tough question. It's like asking me who my favorite child is. Oh, that... Okay, fine. I'll give you two more. You wanna give us two more favorites?  Leslie Johnson: I will say Cassis, which I mentioned earlier, is now- Yeah ... on my list of faves. It has a beef tartare that is to die for. And then you want a third? This is, like, a local spot. It's called The Swinging Door. It's where I go for lunch if I want a really good beet salad, but they have amazing chicken [00:27:00] tenders. It's a, it's like this little quaint, you gotta know it's there kind of spot. It's like the neighborhood  Sharon Pare: restaurant. Sounds like a speakeasy sandwich spot or something. Yeah. Okay. Yeah. Okay. Yeah. How about the most underrated neighborhood? Leslie Johnson: I think Bay View is a definitely a- Okay ... neighborhood. It's kind of south of the city. Is, it is up and coming. A lot of great restaurants are starting to open in that area. So if you're- Okay ... coming to Milwaukee, you're gonna wanna jump in an Uber and head down to the Bay View area and check out some of the restaurants down there, for sure. Sharon Pare: Got it. Best local hidden gem. That means if you got to the end of this podcast, now you get the local's point of view on where to go.  Leslie Johnson: I told you The Swinging Door is a great spot. That's cute. That's a local spot.  Sharon Pare: We can stick to it. We- Local spot  Leslie Johnson: Blue at the top of the Pfister, as much as... I, I don't know if I would call it a local spot, but it's a rooftop. It's got beautiful views of the... and it's on top of the historic Pfister Hotel. So, it just [00:28:00] gives you that elevated, elegant experience, if that's what you're looking for. A great martini with a beautiful view, it's a great spot to go. Or they do Sunday teas as well.  Sharon Pare: I hope you know I'm revisiting this podcast for the 2030 World's Fair. I'm gonna be like, "Leslie said all of these." Okay, one last question. Okay. One thing every first-time visitor should do when they get to visit Milwaukee. They must go to this one place, or they must do this one thing.  Leslie Johnson: I would say you, if you want, if you're a history person, or you're into, you can only do it in Milwaukee, you have to visit the brewery district and see, like, where Pabst Brewing's starting. Go to the Pabst Mansion, and sit in the rooms that the beer barons once sat in and made what it is today. Going into the Miller caves and where they used to store the beer, that's only Milwaukee. Harley Davidson, as we talked about, only Milwaukee.  Sharon Pare: I said one thing, but now we've got five. So, you know what? That's even better.  Leslie Johnson: You made me do five earlier, so [00:29:00] I, now we're just up. Now I'm warming up.  Sharon Pare: So Leslie, this has been such a fun conversation. I know that Milwaukee's going into this new era right now, and it's really exciting to watch. Obviously, I'm really excited to get there in, in 2034, but maybe I'll get there before then. You need to come sooner. I might need to come sooner. But thank you again for your time today and for sharing all the fun stuff that is happening in Milwaukee right now.  Leslie Johnson: Absolutely. Again, thank you so much for having me today. It was an absolute pleasure.  Sharon Pare: Thanks to everyone for listening to this episode of Associations NOW Presents: Industry Partner Series. Join us each month as we explore key topics relevant to association professionals, discuss the challenges and opportunities in the field today, and highlight the significant impact associations have on the economy, the US, and the world. Be sure to subscribe to our podcast on Apple, Spotify, or wherever you listen to your favorite podcasts. And for more information on topics impacting the association space, [00:30:00] visit Associations Now online at associationsnow.com.

Beyond Accessibility: Building Neuroinclusive Association Communities

In this episode of Associations NOW Presents, guest host Catherine Galli, MPH, digital content writer at the International Coaching Federation, sits down with Wendy-Jo Toyama, MBA, FASAE, CAE, chief executive officer of the American Epilepsy Society, and Megan Henshall, chief impact officer of The Neu Project, to explore findings from the ASAE Foundation and MPI Foundation report, “Enhancing Neuroinclusive Practices in Association.” The conversation examines how associations can create more inclusive environments for neurodivergent staff, members, and event attendees by moving beyond accessibility checklists toward intentional belonging. Toyama and Henshall discuss persistent stigma surrounding neurodivergence, gaps in awareness and implementation across organizations, and the importance of making neuroinclusive efforts visible and actionable. They also share practical strategies such as quiet and resilient spaces at events, inclusive facilitation techniques, clearer accommodation pathways, and ongoing feedback mechanisms, while emphasizing curiosity, co-creation, and intersectionality as essential components of meaningful neuroinclusion. A special thanks to the sponsors and supporters of this important report: Choose Chicago Visit Kansas City MGM Resorts International Discover Puerto Rico Myrtle Beach Convention Center  MPI Foundation   Check out the video podcast here: https://youtu.be/l9p_s7Bz6QU [https://youtu.be/l9p_s7Bz6QU] Associations NOW Presents is produced by Association Briefings [https://associationbriefings.com/].   Transcript Catherine Galli: [00:00:00] Welcome to this month's episode of Associations NOW Presents, an original podcast series from the American Society of Association Executives. I'm Catherine Galli, digital content writer at the International Coaching Federation. Today, we're excited to welcome Wendy-Jo Toyama, CEO of the American Epilepsy Society, and Megan Henshall, chief impact officer at The Neu Project. Welcome, Wendy-Jo and Megan. Today, we're discussing the joint report through the ASAE Foundation and MPI Foundation, “Enhancing Neuroinclusive Practices in Association,” of course, which was done in partnership with Ferguson and The Neu Project. For those who may be new to the term, let's just dive right in. How do you define neuroinclusion, and why is it especially relevant for associations right now?  Megan Henshall: I can jump in first, and then I would actually love to hear your answer, too. So at The Neu Project, we define neurodiversity as all of us, right? We all have a [00:01:00] brain. Some brains are, quote, unquote, "neurotypical," some brains are neurodivergent, but there are billions of neurotypes and combinations of different ways of thinking and cognitive function. And so neurodiversity really speaks to, to all of us, and I think we're gonna dig into sort of the neurodivergent experience in this conversation today. But it really is important to note that it is speaking to brain health across everyone and how we support people with cognitive functioning, sensory processing, regardless of their neurotype  Wendy-Jo Toyama: Yeah, and then taking it to the next step, neuroinclusion then would be creating that sense of belonging so that everyone can feel seen and heard. So creating an environment that really embraces that neurological difference. And I think it's particularly important because, as Meg said, it cuts across all aspects of associations, and so we have members who are [00:02:00] affected by practices that are either barriers or neuroinclusive. We have staff. So it's really important to build this to be able to be effective and welcoming and create a sense of belonging for everyone. Catherine Galli: Thank you. That's a great explanation, and I think it really centers everybody into the topic today. So in the association industry, this report on neuroinclusion is a first. What are some of the most surprising or unexpected findings that emerged from the data?  Wendy-Jo Toyama: I will just start by saying I think associations have a long way to go on being a welcoming environment around disabilities in general. And so I think what surprised me is that there are some things that are going well or strengths we can build on. Like, I think it was not as bleak as I thought it was maybe going to be. For me, there are places where things are happening that we can build on. So that was one surprise to me.  Megan Henshall: One of the things that jumped out to me when we did the individual interviews, and we [00:03:00] interviewed samples across the entire association population, but in a, a particular interview with a senior leader, so executive, there was a comment made of, "I don't think this affects my particular organization. Everyone in my organization is very high-functioning." And so it's not-  Wendy-Jo Toyama: There's  that as well, yes.  Megan Henshall: I hear it all the time 'cause I travel constantly and talk with a bunch of different types of organizations and in different industries about neurodiversity, neuroinclusion, neuro-informed design, and I hear it a lot. There is still a lot of misunderstanding and stigma around what a neurodivergent person is and how they present. So I think one of the biggest sort of aha moments from any of these conversations, not just the brilliant work that we've done with ASAE and MPI, is that there are neurodivergent people in every rank, and a lot of this is completely invisible. Wendy-Jo Toyama: Yes.  Megan Henshall: And so it's really important to know that, and until that sort of awareness exists in your body, it's really hard to [00:04:00] support it, accommodate and advocate for it.  Wendy-Jo Toyama: Yeah, that was shocking when I read that finding. The other place that I was surprised about, and I think we probably need to dig in a little bit more, is there's a pretty big gap between member perceptions and staff perceptions. That came out, and it will need more exploration, I think.  Megan Henshall: Yeah.  Catherine Galli: It's interesting that you note visibility in there, and Wendy-Jo, you mentioned the connection to inclusive design and making things inclusive for people with different disabilities, and I think you've also tied it into inclusion in other topics within associations. I love that this study really tries to look at all of the different levels and how that fits within members, their experiences at different events, and then also for staff themselves. And you mentioned this gap between staff and members. When you compare those perspectives, [00:05:00] where do you see the biggest disconnects in how neuroinclusion is experienced? Wendy-Jo Toyama: The one area that I noted a disconnect was around communication, in that the scores are very good about creating design the way it's formatted and looks pretty effectively. But where it is-- where there is a gap is in the actual messaging and the content itself. So not being explicit about being inclusive and thoughtful and intentional around neuroinclusion was one big gap  Megan Henshall: This is a constant thing too. What we saw in the ASAE research is no different than most other organizations who are on a journey to try to implement a neuroinclusive practice. I think a lot of times we educate ourselves, we build an awareness, then we start to implement practices or tactics, and yet we don't story tell around those things, and we don't co-create with the people that we're building for. This is a real challenge across [00:06:00] all design practices, not just this one. But I think a lot of times people, especially event people, who are all heart, right? We care so much about others. We're doing these things in service of others, yet we're not talking about the real intention and thought and care behind those things, and we're not asking for feedback and conversation and dialogue around them when we do try them. So it's really hard to learn, and it's really hard to iterate and get better. But it's interesting because staff are like, "No, we're doing the thing." It's really hard to make it as impactful as possible unless we're inviting the people that it's for into the conversation and iterating, co-creating, evolving with them. So it's really interesting to watch how that's always a part of any journey with this work. But it's a really critical part of the journey.  Wendy-Jo Toyama: And Meg, I think when I look at the page that really calls out this gap [00:07:00] between leaders and members, members perceive us being further along than the staff do. And I think it's related to the journey. I think where it is closest is things around being supportive, creating intention. But where the gaps are the largest are like when you put it into action. So I think allocating resources to support neuroinclusive initiatives. There's a huge gap between what members think and what staff think on that front. There's a huge gap between development programs and training around neurodiversity awareness and understanding. There's a gap around actively involving neuroinclusive initiatives into your plan. So I think it's a journey gap, if you will.  Catherine Galli: It's interesting to hear both you, Wendy-Jo, and Meg, you've mentioned that there's this communication gap as well of we're trying to implement these neuroinclusive practices, and yet nobody knows that they're being [00:08:00] implemented, or perhaps members are not able to find the information they need. Can you explain that gap a little bit more?  Megan Henshall: I can speak to our experience working with companies and also my own experience advocating for myself. So I got diagnosed with autism at 40 after my son was diagnosed at three, so this has been a professional journey for me, but also a very personal one. But I think there's a lot of fear around work like this, and there's a lot of hesitation to lean in because what if we get it wrong or what if we try something that actually isn't helpful? And I think that is why a lot of organizations or just people hesitate or struggle to openly and transparently communicate around what they're doing and why. I also think there's this cancel culture and asking a question and it not being the right question has created a lot of harm in work like this, and I think that's one of the cultural and societal issues with [00:09:00] this. And I hear leaders say it all the time, "I really wanna do something about this. I'm afraid of getting it wrong and it ac- and actually making things worse." But the truth of the matter is, if you approach this sort of work with humility and you're honest and transparent about what you're doing, people are grateful. They're grateful every time. Now, you might get some critical feedback or you might get feedback that you weren't expecting at all, but that just makes us all better. And so in my opinion, at a macro level, I think this is one thing that impacts people's ability to communicate effectively is just this hesitation that, what if I use the wrong word? Or what if I'm not knowledgeable enough? No one is an expert in neuroinclusion. It is a real-time dynamic practice. We are learning more about the human brain every day. We're learning more about how that brain is evolving in real time, so you can't possibly be an expert. We're all learning. We should be [00:10:00] learning openly and together. Wendy-Jo Toyama: I want to build on that and say when I became a CEO, I had a strong membership background. I had an MBA. I was pretty comfortable with finance. I didn't know meetings so well, and I certainly didn't know publishing. But that didn't mean that I didn't do those things because I didn't know and I was afraid of making a mistake. So I think that then you think about what did I do? I reached out to someone I knew who was our editor at the place I worked before. I gained knowledge. I engaged consultants. These are all things you can do around neuroinclusion, and you can certainly start by looking at the research. There's some good articles in there. But saying, "I'm afraid of making a mistake," is not an excuse for equipping yourself to being able to create a welcoming environment around this. The other thing I would say is something that I noticed when I was reading the report. There's a lot in here around intention, and so again, [00:11:00] not just creating a pathway for people to get an accommodation if they need it, but to actually designate somebody who may be an ambassador or someone that you can put out that folks can proactively reach out to. So again, shifting from a compliance culture, sure, if you ask, we'll do it, to one that says, "Hey, are there accommodations you need around neurodiversity? And if there are, here's the pathway for that." That's huge, and really the implementation is the same. You'll still make the accommodation. It's all about the front end and how you make it visible, easy, and begin to take away the stigma around it, right? Catherine Galli: So for association leaders who are wanting to begin this journey, I like that you're starting to mention the skills transferability of leaders are always having to learn new things, and they're always having to apply new things. Just to give our listeners some examples, what are a few simple [00:12:00] high-impact changes that event planners can make to create more neuroinclusive environments? Wendy-Jo Toyama: So I just attended a large 11,000-person meeting. I was there all day. I do not identify as neurodivergent, and yet when I got home, I'm a little introverted. When I got home, I was just done. And so I know some meetings, ours included, are trying to create a quiet place, a space where people during the meeting can go and take a break, and it's quiet. It's away from the hubbub. It's created with intention though, not just, "Here's a room." So I think that's one, one thing I would say I am beginning to see implemented at meetings, and I think it's very good.  Megan Henshall: I couldn't agree more about resilient spaces. I'll give you a funny anecdote. We were at a large culture festival in Texas. I'll let you do with that what you will. And they had resilient spaces, and my [00:13:00] partner in this work, Rachel Lowenstein, and I walked in just to check it out. We're, like, so curious, and it was, like, an inflatable, almost a kids' bounce house in- Oh. ... its room. And so you had the fan going, which is, like- Oh my God, immediate sensory nightmare. The touch of the rubber thing. It was just so not it. So I think there's a lot of, for resilient spaces, I think there's a lot of mental mapping we've done that they need to be juvenile and they're for children, but adults need these spaces in many ways more than kids do. Because we, we don't take care of ourselves, and we largely just, like, we don't take care of each other as much as we should, and that was just a really funny example of, ooh, maybe not the gr- the best way. Yeah. It was a funny moment. I also think, like, there's this- Mindset in the event industry and experience design industry at large, that the flashier, the louder activation. Megan Henshall: [00:14:00] The brighter, the more colorful this thing is, the more you're gonna capture and keep people's attention. And like we know based on neuroscience, that is not at all true. Where you have high highs, you need low lows. People can't sustain high energy all day. They actually can't sustain attention. We have-- The human attention span is actually now less than a goldfish. Thank you, social media.  Catherine Galli: Yeah.  Megan Henshall: So, like we really need to give people breaks. We need to facilitate transitions and give them permission and alibis to go and process and regulate and restore, and sometimes that can be as simple as just giving longer breaks.  Wendy-Jo Toyama: Longer, yeah.  Megan Henshall: They can find their own way. I think giving intentionally designed spaces is really beautiful. Understanding budget constraints and things, like just give them more time to process between things. And think about how we attenuate and amplify at the right time. If you wanna do the [00:15:00] loud music and the flashing lights, like cool, choose your moment for that and know that you also need to provide an alternative, a counterpoint to that at another point in time, because people need both. If you want the most out of them, you need to make sure that you're supporting how their brain works.  Catherine Galli: And that's not even a neurodivergent challenge. That's just a people challenge. I remember going to a three-day conference that was basically a rave for three straight days. Um, leaving and being very overwhelmed. Wendy-Jo Toyama: Yeah. And that speaks to universal design, right? The idea that a lot of times these considerations that get put in place for one purpose end up benefiting everybody. So yeah, better meeting overall.  Megan Henshall: I planned for conferences for decades, and I would come home from running an event, and I would go non-verbal, and I would be in bed for two days. And at the time, I thought, I'm just exhausted. No, I was actually having a full-    Megan Henshall: Yeah ...autistic shutdown, [00:16:00] and now I know how to moderate. But there's a lot of things that I go to because I have to for work, or I need to be there to speak, and they're really untenable for me and a lot of people  Catherine Galli: So you mentioned some of the things that are supportive in events for being able to be more accessible, not just for neurodivergent individuals, but for everyone. What are some of the ways that associations can better support their neurodivergent members, whether that's volunteering, leadership roles, or even committee participation?  Wendy-Jo Toyama: We recently had a strategic planning session, and I really appreciated our consultant who we brought in to facilitate that because she did very thoughtful things around this. It would be typical that they might throw out a question to a group, talk about how X is affecting the field. But she also included, "I want everybody to think for the next two minutes. Let's not talk. [00:17:00] Let's just think. Take out a piece of paper and write down how the external environment is affecting your association." And I really appreciated that. It gave folks who are not think talkers the chance to gather their thoughts. I think there's little things like that we can do. I think that that was really helpful for a group that I'm sure included neurodivergent folks.  Megan Henshall: I think one of the reasons I loved the approach to this project we did with ASAE and MPI is it started with curiosity and listening, and I really believe-  Wendy-Jo Toyama: Yes Megan Henshall: Curiosity is a dying human practice because now we can Gemini or ChatGPT anything, and we don't talk to one another anymore. And I think any organization that really wants to get this right, they have to start with listening and a really deep spirit of curiosity to understand the [00:18:00] experience of the people that ultimately they serve or, or building for or designing for. And I'm always really proud to be a part of a project that-- or a journey that starts that way. So I think it's as simple as asking people on your team, "How do you best like to see, receive information? What is your communication style, and how can I accommodate the ways that you learn or you process information?" Cool. Tell me a little bit about your chronotype. What are the parts of your day where you're peak creative, and how can we lean into that? I think this idea of job crafting and things in the future, learning strengths-based work and, and just building together, collaboration is gonna be more important than ever in a post-AI world. And curiosity is not something that AI can replace. Bravery to ask the question is not something that AI can ever [00:19:00] replace. And so these are the human things. This is very human work, right? These are the human things that we need to recultivate, and guess what? They're free, and they're simple. So I, I really do think that's the best first step for anyone who wants to get into this work. Wendy-Jo Toyama: So interesting to hear you talk about it, Meg, because at the organization I'm at, the American Epilepsy Society, our members are really curious, no surprise. And so we bring a lot of curiosity into our association and into our work. We also talk about neurodivergence at the board table as well as with staff. And I think, again, normalizing it, bringing curiosity helps us think about how to curate and design a meeting or a day in a way that takes that into account and doesn't make it something that's odd or stigmatized or negative.  Megan Henshall: Yeah. We're not robots, right? We all have different needs, and it's so important. And once you throw it out there, people are like, "Oh."  Wendy-Jo Toyama: Yeah.  Megan Henshall: And it creates such rich conversation. It's a beautiful thing.  Wendy-Jo Toyama: Yeah. There's no IEP for adulthood.  Megan Henshall: 100. Don't I know [00:20:00] it.  Wendy-Jo Toyama: Yeah. So we have to figure out how we carry on that, creating an environment where everyone can bring their best self.  Catherine Galli: That's wonderful. And even just framing it within curiosity takes away some of the fear for people who are trying to jump into this space to say that, "Okay, I'm going to get it wrong, but I want to learn, and I can learn with the people that I work with and the people that I serve together." That's wonderful. So we've talked about this idea of stepping into starting these practices. I like that the research kind of sets a baseline for neuroinclusive practice and associations. Going off of that, what guidance would you offer to leaders to measure and improve neuroinclusion in their organizations?  Megan Henshall: I can jump in. I think when you're doing, again, very deeply human work like neuroinformed design and neuroinclusive practice, I think [00:21:00] understanding sentiment is one of the most important things, because again, this isn't data on a spreadsheet. This is lived experience, and this is like human beings' everyday lives. And so I think, again, creating a really robust feedback channel that is open and transparent is critical for this sort of work. As you implement, you ask, "How did that land? How did that feel? Was that helpful? How could it be more helpful?" And I know we're all survey fatigued, but it doesn't have to be a survey, right? It can be an individual conversation. It can be observational audit, right? Just to see how people are engaging with the thing that you tried. We've done this a multitude of ways in the new project. At one point, we brought in behavioral and organizational scientists, and they did an observational audit and helped us iterate and improve. So I think there are a lot of different ways that you can do this that aren't as potentially annoying or invasive as a survey. [00:22:00] But the feedback loop, people seeing you responding to their feedback and then coming back to them is, it's just so kind, and it's just one of the most impactful things that you can do. It is very hard to boil this down to two KPIs, but once you have that feedback loop in place, the story writes itself, and then I think you can plug out certain data points or positive or negative side effects of various interventions, so you can build from there. But that feedback channel is really important. Wendy-Jo Toyama: I love your answer because it is very personal and actionable. I will also say, I do think you could use proxies, right? So I do think that ideally, if you are being inclusive of all your employees and neuro inclusive, you might see employee engagement scores go up. You might see your employee retention go up. You might see your member retention or your net promoter score go up. [00:23:00] So I think there are other proxies you can look at. You may not be able to draw a straight line, and of course, these kinds of efforts take time. So that's why I like augmenting proxies with what you're talking about. I love the experience audit idea. I also think there are questions we can ask. Does everyone feel like they belong? Do you feel like you can express your opinion? Do you feel heard? I think there are questions that sometimes feel like soft questions, but they really aren't anymore, right? We're learning that what leaders need is shifting and evolving, and these are essential skills. But there are qu- there are questions you could incorporate into something else you're doing, right? To your point, Meg, there's... People are tired of surveys, but so I think figuring out what you're currently doing and how you can just tweak it a little to get a little information could be helpful.  Megan Henshall: Yeah. I'll give a really tangible example. Based on feedback and sentiment, we heard we're partnering with an organization, we heard we need [00:24:00] something intentional and designed to lower stress and anxiety in this particular environment. And so we created an intervention based on the feedback, we implemented it, and then we actually tracked some biometric data. Oh. We had a user experience team come in and conduct interviews, and started with feedback, did this intervention, and actually ended up with this incredible data around how this intervention had lowered stress and anxiety rates by 60%.  Megan Henshall: Uh ... so amazing. The teams felt more creative post-intervention, and they actually felt more productive for up to four hours afterwards. And so it was really interesting. We didn't know exactly what we would learn, but we knew we were solving a real problem that we had heard from the people we cared about. And so this is just a very tangible example of how that can manifest. You don't always know exactly what KPI you're gonna end up with, but if you're doing the right thing with the right intention, you'll prove yourself right with the [00:25:00] data. Wendy-Jo Toyama: Right. And here's what I heard. I didn't hear, "Oh my gosh, I have to bring in a behavioral health scientist to measure this." What I heard is, "Oh, she listened to her audience, made changes, and it was effective." That's the part of your answer that I heard that feels very implementable, right? Because, again, we don't wanna not do it because I can't have someone come in and measure it. I don't have the money to do that, so I'm not- Right ... gonna do it at all. You can still do it, and guess what? You'll still get a result even if you're not measuring it.  Megan Henshall: Yeah. I think sometimes we get so hamstrung. We're in a prison of date, of data necessity. I love it. And we... There's this really great saying, "The same hammer can build a cathedral or a prison," and I think a lot of times we wield data that way. Yeah. Boxed ourselves in. Just do something 'cause you know it's the right thing to do and it's needed, and I guarantee you the data will come. Yeah.  Wendy-Jo Toyama: It's incredible. It's like being at the conference the other day, and I didn't have my watch on, so I couldn't count my steps. I'm like, "Oh my gosh." You know? Yeah, but I guess I'm still taking [00:26:00] them all, so it still counts whether or not I measured it.  Megan Henshall: Uh, I have the Oura Ring, and sometimes it's a very self-fulfilling prophecy. I'm like, "Oh, I'm not well today." Catherine Galli: So then for organizations considering getting involved or sponsoring this type of research, what's the real value both for the organization and the broader community? Wendy-Jo Toyama: Ultimately, creating a sense of belonging is going to be beneficial on so many different fronts, from including all voices, different voices, people wanting to be a part of your association, working or as members. So many different benefits.  Megan Henshall: Yeah. As someone who regularly says that my autistic special interest is people, I'm often completely befuddled by this mindset of, "We wanna sell you something. We wanna get something from you, yet [00:27:00] we're not gonna take the time to understand you and meet you where you are." Yeah. And I think we talk about neuroinclusion as, and it's not just the right thing to do, it's also a strategic imperative.  Wendy-Jo Toyama: Yeah.  Megan Henshall: There was a really interesting study that came out last year from our friends at understood.org. Like 52% of Gen Z, decent sample size, identify as neurodivergent.  Catherine Galli: Sure.  Megan Henshall: And so it's just really interesting to think there's this whole swath of people that most organizations know very little about, not only how to support them and accommodate them, but also how to get the most out of them, how to help them meet their potential, or how to sell them something even, right? And so I think it's really important that when you're designing or you're looking to target people, that you do everything you can to understand them, because that's gonna help you get the messaging right. That's gonna help you create the right design interventions, and ultimately, it creates a really virtuous cycle, right? I understand you, I do the right thing for you to give [00:28:00] back. It creates reciprocity, and it's not as extractive. So I, I just think it's a really important part of business, like good business practice.  Wendy-Jo Toyama: It's essential.  Catherine Galli: Yeah. I love that, and I love hearing just this idea that, one, it's about being a good steward of resources and being a good steward of people, treating people with respect and kindness, and inviting them to engage on all these different levels. But also just a strategic imperative- It is ... that the future of work demands that associations or really any organization be prepared for these changes that are happening, and be able to work with future staff and future members who may identify as neurodivergent. So I really like that this research is coming in now because I think it's a great place to spark those conversations and to prepare associations for a future like that, and for people right now who are navigating these different events and [00:29:00] leadership positions, committee participation, and wanting to show up as their best selves. Mm. And then I had a question about- We talked about the research, we talked about ways to make events a little bit more inviting. That first step can be really challenging. If an association wanted to get started with neuroinclusion today but didn't know where to begin, what's the first step you recommend they take? Wendy-Jo Toyama: I wouldn't boil the ocean. And I think if you haven't stated an intention, I think that's a place to start. But you do need to follow it with action. You don't wanna be performative in this space. I think one of the things that you could do is begin a conversation with your staff about this. You may not know who identifies as neurodivergent, and if somebody steps [00:30:00] forward, then that might be someone you could co-create with. So that might be a way to start by bringing it into the room, having the conversation, having by us, for us kind of discussion, and identifying something that would be meaningful and doable and sustainable.  Megan Henshall: I love that answer. Yeah, look around where you are and invite neurodivergent people. They're there. They are. Invite them to the process.  Catherine Galli: Yeah.  Megan Henshall: So I said earlier, start with listening. I think listening to people in your own organization is a beautiful way to get started there. I will counter, so here's what not to do. Oh,  Catherine Galli: yeah.  Megan Henshall: Do not hire a neurodivergent speaker, especially if you're not compensating them fairly. Have them come talk about their lived experience, and then do nothing afterwards. That is so icky. I see it happening all the time, and people are like, "We did it. We checked the box. We educated people." A 30-minute keynote at a conference where someone is talking about their [00:31:00] disability is not it. Don't do that. But I, I actually don't think there's any wrong way to start as long as you're doing it from- Start ... an honest, honest place and you're curious.  Wendy-Jo Toyama: Yeah.  Catherine Galli: Yeah. Love that. And is there anything else you want our listeners to know about enhancing neuro inclusion in their practices and associations?  Wendy-Jo Toyama: One of the things we haven't talked about that I do wanna mention is intersectionality. And I do think that if you are someone who identifies as a person of color or female in a male environment, male in a female environment, you might closet your neurodivergence. And so again, I think it's important for leaders to understand that this is happening. That when you say, "I don't have anyone neurodivergent on my staff," you probably do. They are probably, there's probably intersectionality happening there, and they don't wanna be an Asian woman and neurodivergent. [00:32:00] So I think that's really important to be aware of. And again, I think what Meg's been talking about, being curious and listening, I think those are some of the ways that you can try to tease this out. But it's a real- anxiety, stressful-producing situation to be in as an individual if you feel you have to hide part of who you are because, oh gosh, I have this other stuff going on. So I, I just think it's important that people are aware of that. I'm not actually sure what to tell you to do about that, but be aware of it and continue to be curious and listen. Megan Henshall: Yeah. Less than 30%, I think it's 27% is the latest stat, of people disclose that they're neurodivergent at work or in mixed spaces, right, where they don't have really trusted people around. And a lot of people are undiagnosed.  Wendy-Jo Toyama: Sure.  Megan Henshall: They need this work, and they just don't know they need it. So yeah, I just- I'll give a quick plug. We have free resources on The Neu Project website. It's just The Neu Project, N-E-U project.com. There [00:33:00] are free resources there specifically for event planners because we know events are one of the most stressful things for neurodivergent people. A lot of them don't go, and so they're missing out on professional opportunities and networking opportunities that matter to them, and their careers, and their growth, and their ability to contribute. Go check that out. We'll- those will always be free. And I think, while I can't speak for Wendy-Jo, but if you have questions and you just wanna unpack things with a safe person, I'm always open. So you can contact the team at The Neu Project through the website. And yeah, stay curious.  Wendy-Jo Toyama: Yeah. And  the resource with MPI and ASAE has practical actions in it. It has links to articles in it, and I believe toolkits will be coming out as well. Again, I think now that you've heard about neuroinclusion and neurodiversity, you're probably gonna find a number of places you can turn. It wasn't on your radar screen maybe before, but now it is. So there are [00:34:00] resources out  Catherine Galli: there. That's wonderful. Thank you so much, Meg and Wendy-Jo. Thanks to everybody listening to this episode of Associations NOW Presents. Join us each month to explore key topics relevant to association professionals, discuss the challenges and opportunities in the field today, and highlight the significant impact associations have on the economy, the US, and the world. Be sure to subscribe to our podcast on Apple, Spotify, or wherever you listen to your favorite podcasts. And for more information on topics impacting the association space, visit Associations Now online at associationsnow.com.

The Impact of Second-Tier Destinations on Association Meetings and Events

In this episode of Associations NOW Presents: Industry Partner Edition, guest host Sharon Pare of HighRoad Solutions is joined by Stephanie Alexander-Priakos, director of meetings and conferences at Visit St. Pete-Clearwater; Myha Gallagher, vice president of brand at Future Partners; and Jill Stone, site selection manager with HelmsBriscoe, for a conversation about the evolving meetings and events landscape and the growing appeal of second-tier destinations like St. Pete-Clearwater, Florida. Drawing on industry research and firsthand planning experience, the guests discuss how planners are increasingly prioritizing affordability, accessibility, safety, and unique experiences when selecting destinations, while also navigating rising costs, convention center fatigue, and growing political considerations tied to location decisions. The conversation also explores emerging trends shaping the future of meetings, including the rise of “bleisure” travel, the importance of walkability and outdoor gathering spaces, and how AI is beginning to influence sourcing and attendee personalization. Alexander-Priakos highlights what continues to drive interest in St. Pete-Clearwater, from its award-winning beaches and walkable downtown to expanding meeting infrastructure, wellness-focused properties, and cultural attractions such as the Dalí and Chihuly museums. The episode also examines the role destination organizations play in supporting planners through site visits, logistics, and creating memorable attendee experiences that extend beyond the convention center. Check out the video podcast here: https://youtu.be/dQzqtjc_2N0 [https://youtu.be/dQzqtjc_2N0]   This episode is sponsored by Visit St. Pete-Clearwater [https://www.visitstpeteclearwater.com/]. Associations NOW Presents is produced by Association Briefings [https://associationbriefings.com/].   Transcript Sharon Pare: [00:00:00] Welcome to this episode of Associations NOW Presents: Industry Partner Series, an original podcast series from the American Society of Association Executives. I'm Sharon Pare, partnerships director at High Road, a HubSpot agency, and your host of this series throughout the year. This episode is sponsored by Visit St. Pete-Clearwater.  Today, I'm joined by three fantastic guests. First, I wanna introduce Myha Gallagher, vice president of brand at Future Partners, where she helps bring meeting and travel industry research to life through data-driven storytelling and insights. Stephanie Alexander-Priakos, director of meetings and conferences at Visit St. Pete-Clearwater, who's passionate about showcasing the destination's award-winning beaches, culture, hospitality, and group experiences. And Jill Stone, site selection manager with HelmsBriscoe    and co-host of the In the [00:01:00] Genes podcast, who brings more than 35 years of experience helping planners create successful meetings and events throughout the world. Today, we're talking about trends shaping the meetings and events industries, meeting and events industry, and why more planners and associations are looking beyond traditional convention destinations toward places like St. Pete-Clearwater. So I'm gonna put a little disclaimer here, 'cause as a Florida girl born and raised, and I think I mentioned this to you ladies before, I have to say it's been really fun watching the west coast of Florida evolve. 20-plus years ago. I don't wanna date myself here, but in college a lot of us on the east side of Central Florida, we just didn't head west all that often. And now here in the 2020s, 2026, I think St. Pete-Clearwater has become one of the most talked about destinations, right? Meetings, events, food, maybe sports, and maybe just the overall experience. So I'm really excited to dig into all of this today. So Myha, I really wanna kick off your work [00:02:00] with the research, because I think it will frame this entire conversation. So Future Partners, which I know you're very heavily involved with that survey, every year you do a survey of meeting planners to understand the trends that are impacting the meetings industry. So what would you say are some of the top emerging trends as it relates to St. PeteyClearwater?  Myha Gallagher : Yeah, I'm happy to share that, Sharon. Thank you so much for having us on. The first and probably the biggest trend that we see coming out of our latest survey is the rise in interest among meeting planners in sourcing second-tier destinations. In fact, nearly 81% of planners that we surveyed agreed that second-tier destinations are growing in popularity for events, and this is really being driven by the demand for new experiences, a perception that second-tier cities are much safer than first-tier cities, and then cost savings in sourcing smaller destinations as well. And then we're also hearing from planners that their attendees are having [00:03:00] convention center fatigue. Just being stuck in the four concrete walls of a convention center can really drain your energy, and so planners are sharing with us that they are looking for more differentiated experiences and, of course, beautiful scenery to keep their attendees engaged and energized. And then lastly, unfortunately, there's been a considerable rise in agreement among planners that politics are having an effect on the destinations that they're sourcing. In fact, 61% of planners said they have had to reconsider a destination due to controversial issues in the past 12 months alone. And in subsequent conversations with planners, they've shared with us that, of course, they're planning events for large groups, many diverse attendees, and they wanna make sure that the destinations that they select will be safe and welcoming for their groups. And this is an area where St. Pete Clearwater has done a fantastic job crafting each message and ad campaign to [00:04:00] really showcase how welcoming a destination they are.  Sharon Pare: So I wanted to dig in a little bit more. You mentioned this convention center fatigue, this attendee fatigue, right? And like you said, a lot of the attendees say don't wanna be within that traditional sense in those four walls of the convention center now, right? And perhaps we're gonna dig into this a little bit more in the conversation, but can you touch on that a little bit about are planners now looking for destinations where the city itself becomes part of the entire event experience?  Myha Gallagher : Oh, absolutely. I think the traditional sense of conventions and convention centers, especially with younger attendees coming into the mix now with Gen Z, planners are really looking for ways to engage that younger audience, and we know there are different tools that need to be used to activate our younger convention attendees. And one tactic is definitely sourcing more unique spaces, making sure you're in a really [00:05:00] beautiful environment to keep the energy up. And that's not to say convention centers are going away at all. They serve a very specific and vital part of the meetings industry. But for planners who are hosting smaller groups, not citywides, they are definitely looking towards more unconventional and more unique spaces to host their events. Sharon Pare: And to add to that, what right now are planners ... And don't worry, Jill, I'll be getting to you soon. But what are they asking for that maybe three or four years ago they weren't asking for? Is there anything different? Is there a shift that you've seen?  Myha Gallagher : Yeah. The top trend around that, I think it comes as no surprise to anyone in the room, is the use of AI. Many planners are using AI to help with their sourcing decisions, and they're also thinking about ways that AI can be integrated into the meeting environment to [00:06:00] personalize meeting agendas for their attendees. And like every other industry, AI is making its impact, and, and it'll be interesting to see how planners continue to leverage the tool to evolve their meetings. Sharon Pare: I'm gonna bring it over to Jill. And it's really interesting, Miha, to hear about the research side of things because again, I think it's really reshaping how the planners are thinking about some of these things today, and how they're planning their meetings. So Jill, after decades, I don't wanna say many, but after decades working directly, well, it just shows your expertise and your wisdom around really knowing your stuff. But after working with these directors and planners and clients after all this time, are you seeing those shifts play out in real time? And maybe you can tell us about a recent experience you had with Visit St. Pete/Clearwater, and tell us a little bit more about that.  Jill Stone: Sure. Miya took most of my answers, I gotta say. But I got a few left I think that maybe I can share. She's right. Clients are looking for [00:07:00] lots of different things. Mainly, there's, the safety issue's huge. Politics is huge unfortunately. And I've had clients leave a particular hotel or destination, or just totally discount it altogether because of that. And then there's other things that happen, laws that are passed, et cetera, that maybe they can't either agree with or get on board with. But yes, I just had a client at the Wyndham Clearwater Beach, and St. Pete was great. They offer free things for clients, and I'm sure Stephanie's gonna get into all the things that they offer and the things that they can do. But they also help when I'm looking for a destination, and maybe I have forgotten one. They're quick to tell me, "Hey, look at this one, too." And- What I found, especially when I interviewed Stephanie for our podcast, is that they have some great hotels and resorts of all various sizes. So if a client has a large size meeting, let's say 4- or 500 people, that can be done, but also some of the smaller meetings can be at some of the more boutique style hotels or those [00:08:00] kinds of things. But, and one other thing they're looking for is walkability to things, ease of getting to the destination. Affordability is huge. Second tier destinations like St. Pete/Clearwater are very affordable. And yes, I agree with Miha on the convention center fatigue. If they can get outside to the beach, and more beach, that makes them happy. And outside venue spaces are key for lunches, breaks, et cetera. So if they can find a meeting space that has an outdoor terrace or a lawn or someplace where they can be outside in a great, warm destination, then they will be signing on the dotted line pretty quickly for that. But also, St. Pete has the The Renaissance Vinoy is one of my favorite hotels, and it is located in a really cool area, maybe not so much beach, but they've got shops and restaurants and museums and things that are so walkable and people wanna get to and experience. So there's all kinds of things you can experience in their destination. All of it, [00:09:00] actually. You can have a city experience or you can have more of a beach experience. And a lot of planners are looking for that now. They've got attendees who want, we call it bleisure. They wanna expand and they wanna go someplace they wanna go. And so it's on their bucket list to get to. So those are the kinda things that my clients are looking for. And another thing that's easy for them is if they are just using one hotel, one contract and one contact makes their whole life a whole lot easier, too. So anything we can do to help the planners find what they want with ease and make it easier for them, that's my job to do, and I try to do that. Try to do that every day. Sharon Pare: It sounds like Visit St. Pete-Clearwater definitely gets you outside of those four walls because it has so much to offer. You mentioned having the boutique hotels, obviously, and I know this too, some of the most beautiful beaches. Bleisure, this is my first time ever hearing of business and leisure just put into one, right? What are some of your clients prioritizing the most right now when they're selecting destinations? I know you talked about [00:10:00] walkability and some of the other things. Is there anything else that the clients or your clients are really looking for, too?  Jill Stone: With the way the economic things are happening right now, affordability is one of the key things. Which it does, second tier destinations do tend to be more affordable. It's easy to get into their airports, which are smaller, so their attendees don't feel like they're lost in a huge Airport, and at, and typically where they're going is very close to the airport. No one wants to be hours and hours away from the airport. So those destinations tend to have ... In St. Pete, I know, I know Stephanie will talk about all those things too, but they do have all those things. You, depending on where you wanna be in their area, you're very close to things. And yes, walkability. The Wyndham, for example, there was a pier and lots of restaurants just within walking distance. And so it was perfect for both. They got both experiences, the beach, and a little bit of the city experience too. So for my client, that was very much ... They're, the, and they're, the, and they [00:11:00] also we have to think about not only do the attendees, because they're s- pretty much in meeting rooms all day, their spouses wanna come and bring their kids sometimes. And so this was perfect destination for that, and the kids got to be outside flashing around and, uh, running around in the sand.  Sharon Pare: Jill, I, I think that's such a good setup for Stephanie, 'cause now we've talked about what the planners are looking for. And Stephanie, I, you're from the Visit St. Pete-Clearwater side. So I wanna talk about really what makes the destination work so well for groups. Why is St. Pete-Clearwater a great place to have a meeting or conference?  Stephanie Alexander-Priakos: First of all, m- going from what Jill had said over here, we do have award-winning beaches. That's what we're famous for with Clearwater Beach and St. Pete Beach. They've had accolades. I've lived here 19 years now, and they've been having accolades of the best beaches in America for as long as I've been here, and I think it's an awful lot longer than that too. But the weather. This is why I moved here. [00:12:00] Coming from the UK where it rains a lot, it's very gray, it's windy. I'd had enough of it. I needed some blue sky and sunshine. And I've, I've been lucky that I've been in this industry all of my life as well, and I must have traveled to over 80 different countries now, and I've lived in six different countries. And there is nowhere else in the world that I would rather live and work than St. Pete-Clearwater. For me, it has everything that I can possibly want, and I don't think I'm alone because we get a lot of meetings that are held over in this destination. One of course, like you said, because of the weather. We actually hold a Guinness World Record, St. Pete does, and it is for the most consecutive days of sunshine in the world at 768 consecutive days of sunshine. We have all year round great weather. I love it. The groups are really busy in January and February when it's really [00:13:00] cold and snowy up in Chicago or Boston or Cleveland. So we get a lot of people coming down at that time of year just to get a break from the cold weather too But our hotels are so different. Each and every one has its own unique selling point. Everything from downtown St. Petersburg, which really has that vibrant arts and culinary feel to it. We have four restaurants in downtown St. Pete that are in the Michelin Guide. Every single restaurant in downtown St. Pete except two is independently owned and operated as well. Very proud of that. And like Jill said, everything is walking distance. I will make one correction on the Vinoy, though. It's no longer The Renaissance. It is the Vinoy Marriott Autograph Collection. Oh, sorry about that. That's okay. And the Vinoy is celebrating its 100th anniversary this year. They went through a major renovation. The hotel is just... It's fabulous. Very Spanish style. [00:14:00] Lot of history to it. They have great meeting space. Their largest meeting room is 12,000 square feet, and they have a total of 35,400. So it's a great option in downtown St. Pete. And like Jill said, everything's walkable. It really is. And they have a marina right opposite the hotel, so you have the choice of doing your deep sea fishing charters. Go and see some dolphins. It's just about guaranteed every time you go on the water you're gonna see some dolphins. We get a lot of people that asking for natural light in their meetings now. When you'd mentioned- Yes, that's so important ... yep, and Mihad mentioned this convention, they, they don't want to be in those four walls where they don't know what's going on outside. Sharon Pare: Or those basements sometimes. Yeah. Sometimes you end up in, in a cave, and you haven't seen the light of day for 72 hours, and then by the time you get out of it, it's dark, right? Yeah.  Stephanie Alexander-Priakos: Yep. So, okay. Right. That's good to know. Yeah, so a lot of hotels with, with meeting space, space with [00:15:00] natural light. We have up and down the beaches, too, and in downtown St. Pete. And I think that's really important, but our hotels are smart because they do have the option to bring down those blinds if they do need to st- If people are looking outside and watching the dolphins too much in the middle of the meeting, we do have options. We can fix that, so it's all good. That sounds sad- I would be- but, you know, that makes sense. Go ahead, Jill. Jill Stone: I would be watching the dolphins. That would be a whole... probably more fun than whatever's on the screen. But no, I like that idea, too. And you can see outside when you want to. And like I said, they like to get outside, so if there's a way to do that, too, they're happy there. And I know there's... You, Stephanie, you have a lot of hotels with that capability. A lot of people  Stephanie Alexander-Priakos: are bringing in the wellness tourism into their meetings as well. The wellness... We've got three properties that are recognized by the Wellness Tourism Association, which is The Vinoy. We also have the Don CeSar on St. Pete Beach and the JW Marriott on Clearwater Beach. So we're seeing that groups are looking for different experiences as well, and [00:16:00] incorporating that wellness into their agenda. Ad Read: Let's take a quick break and hear a word from our episode sponsor. Whether it's a sunrise walk before sessions or a sunset reception on the Gulf, America's favorite beaches give your event a backdrop that no ballroom can match. The Dali Museum, Chihuly Collection, and hundreds of murals across the Edge District give planners ready-made cultural excursions that feel curated, not generic. St. Pete-Clearwater has earned national recognition as one of America's next great food cities. From laid-back Gulf Coast seafood to Michelin-recognized kitchens, the range and quality give planners a roster of restaurants that impress any attendee and appetite. To start planning today, visit meetspc.com. Stephanie Alexander-Priakos: I want to go back to the Don CeSar Hotel, which is another iconic property that we have on St. Pete Beach. [00:17:00] They are 98 years old, and are gonna be celebrating their 100th anniversary soon. Mm. And both properties have really great history to it, because both of them were actually used as hospitals during World War II, and they've been renovated, and they just look amazing. They look fantastic. The Don CeSar just opened a brand-new ballroom with 7,400 square feet, so they have some really good meeting space, too. Our newest hotel is the Opal Sol, part of the Opal Collection. That's up in Clearwater Beach. Very nice. As they have a connecting walkway across the street to their sister property, the Opal Sands Hotel. So we got really excited because c- the two- Mm-hmm ... properties, it's almost 500 guest rooms and 80,000 square feet of meeting space. So even though we are a tier two destination, we still can host some of those larger groups. Sharon Pare: I was just about to ask that, so thank you for segueing yourself into that. Okay, good to know. Okay.  Stephanie Alexander-Priakos: Yeah. So again, like we said, between the Opal [00:18:00] Sol and Opal Sands, up to 500 guest rooms. TradeWinds is our largest hotel on St. Pete Beach with 768 guest rooms. They can also be very creative because they can put tents on the beach, too, as does the Sheraton Sand Key up in Clearwater Beach. And TradeWinds actually held an event over there with 4,000 people. It's rare that we do something like that, but the ca- capabilities are there. I think the maximum that Sheraton Sand Key has done has been about 1,200 utilizing those tents out on the beach. And that's the wonderful thing about this destination, is that they can utilize different things, meeting all day and then go have their reception or their dinner on the beach with their toes in the sand and a drink in their hand, perhaps. And also, one of the other things that a lot of the groups seem to really enjoy in our destination is that they get the hotels to themselves. So I- I've heard the phrase they like to be a big [00:19:00] fish in a little pond So rather than being in one of those hotels that may have five, six, seven plus meetings going on at the same time, they literally have the whole hotel to themselves. And that's one thing that they really enjoy doing. And then we're also renowned for the different things that we have available in our destination. So we do a lot of, uh, pre/post room nights for the groups because of that bleisure like Jill was talking about. They do like to stay at the end of their conference or at the beginning of the conference. They'll have their family with them or just wanna relax for the weekend after the conference has finished. And we have different places like Tarpon Springs is our Greek sponge docks, and that actually is known for the world's largest Epiphany celebration. And they go out and they will dive for the sponges, which are natural. And oh my God, the food is amazing. It really is . We love our food over here, too. And then we've got Dunedin, which is our little [00:20:00] Scottish village over there, and every April they host the Highland Games. We just had the Valspar tournament up at Innisbrook, which is another r- resort of ours, and we had golfers like Jordan Spieth, Brooks Koepka, and Justin Thomas that were playing there. We have had Tiger Woods play there as well. We just closed up our Sugar Sand Festival on Clearwater Beach. That's 17 days of celebrating Clearwater Beach's most natural assets, the sugar sand and the sunsets. And there was over 1,000 tons of sand and 24,000 square feet of art exhibits. We also just had our Firestone Grand Prix in Downtown St. Petersburg. A little bit like Monaco, they close off the streets of Downtown St. Pete and have the race over there. They literally close down the streets and they build that racetrack in Downtown St. Pete. It goes past the Dali Museum. We did actually get 1.6 million viewers at the Firestone Grand Prix. [00:21:00] So yeah, we have some really cool things that go on down here, and I'm gonna just segue into the Dali Museum because that's one of, one of the other things that we are famous for. We have nine museums in Downtown St. Pete, including the Dali Museum, and Salvador Dali chose Downtown St. Petersburg for the only museum that he has outside of Spain. We also have the Chihuly Museum. Chihuly Museum is the only one outside of Seattle, which is where Dale Chihuly lives. And if you're not familiar with the Chihuly Museum, if you've ever been to the Bellagio in Las Vegas, it's where all the glass art is just everywhere. Beautiful, too. Yes, these are really good. And we have 600 art murals in Downtown St. Pete right now. It's very much a vibrant, just an amazing destination. But you can't beat the beaches, like I said. So you have so many different choices of options, places that you can be I've done site tours with so many clients, and the more I get to know them and feel [00:22:00] what they're looking for, I'm gonna be, "Okay, downtown St. Pete is gonna be for you, St. Pete Beach is gonna be for you, or Clearwater Beach is going to be for you." And that's another thing that we do at Visit St. Pete Clearwater. We live here. We know our destination, so we can help planners like Jill, if she's not quite sure what's gonna be the right fit, we can make recommendations for them. We really can put the two things together. We can help our meeting planners as well find offsite venues. We've got some great offsite venues from sunset dinner cruises. We have some really cool boats that we can take up to 350 people for a dinner cruise right now at Starlight Cruises. We just had St. Pete Athletic Club opened up, and that is pickleball. But their meeting space, believe it or not, is phenomenal. They literally have 18,000 square feet of meeting space in a pickleball venue. So again, we've got restaurants that we can do offsite venues. Clearwater [00:23:00] Marine Aquarium, oh my goodness me. They call it the Wall of Wonder because you can actually place your tables and your chairs in this particular area, and then you havethe whole glass aquarium where you can see the dolphins swimming past while you're having entertainment, while you're having, again, food and beverage for your group. So we have some very cool venues. We can help the planners select everything like that. We highly encourage site visits for everybody. We want them to come down and see the destination. Our planners know their clients, and we know the destination, so you put the two together and it's a perfect combination. And we will assist. We will arrange private transportation from the airport for the clients. We arrange all the accommodations, and we arrange the whole itinerary. And one of our amazing team members will literally take your client from A to B to C to D and be with them for the whole time and answer any questions that they may have. And then like Jill was [00:24:00] talking about as well, we do have a lot of complimentary services available. One of the things that we have is a welcome sign at Tampa International Airport, so it can be "Welcome such and such group." And that's gonna be the first thing that they see when they arrive into our destination. And there are 80 direct nonstop flights into Tampa within the domestic United States, and there's 20 direct nonstop international flights. So Tampa, again, a really easy airport to fly into. Voted the number two airport in the United States. We're very proud of that too. And you are literally 25, 35 minutes to get from the airport to the beaches. And just coming from a couple of conferences myself in Los Angeles and San Diego, boy, that traffic's bad. You're not wrong. So it's a lot easier and a lot faster to get to our beaches, that's for sure. And then the other thing we do with the complimentary services, we have a lot of media and videos available. We even send [00:25:00] out postcards if people want to go to the clients saying, "Save the date. Can't wait to see you in Clearwater. Can't wait to see you in St. Petersburg." Not many people get nice things in the mail anymore, but you can get a really great picture of the St. Pete or the beaches in our destination. And we do have a few incentives available. So if it helps secure the group in our destination, reach out. That's what we're here for. We want our hotels to secure the business. We're there to help both the hotels and the planners. So anything that we can do, we're here for you.  Sharon Pare: That's awesome, Stephanie. So thank you so much for that. I wanted to shift over to a little fun section. A few things I wanted to ask about St. Pete Clearwater, and basically give our listeners a cheat sheet for some of the things they should do. Stephanie, you gave us a wealth of knowledge around the things to see, the Guinness Book of World Records, the new hotels. Even Jill didn't know about one, and you gave her the news today, right? You heard it here [00:26:00] today. So Jill and Mihai, I want you guys to participate as well, but I wanna have a little bit of a fun time with this. And Stephanie, I know you've been in St. Pete Clearwater for about 19 years, so you might be our expert on this, but I'd love Jill and Mihai's take as well. So beaches, if you all had to pick one, one at a time, which one would you go to? I-  Stephanie Alexander-Priakos: I'm gonna jump in real quick over here. Like I said, I've been to so many different countries, and this is absolutely my favorite because of the beautiful white pure sand that we have. We have 35 miles of it, so I can't pick exactly which part. You've gotta pick one, though, Stephanie. Gotta pick one. We g- we need to see a cheat sheet. 35 miles of beaches from St. Pete to Clearwater. How's that? Okay. All right. Jill, what about you? Jill Stone: I like the Gulf areas of Florida 'cause their sand is beautiful. When I actually did take a few minutes last year with my client being at the Wyndham Clearwater, I had five minutes. Yeah, and it was beautiful. And so I gotta say [00:27:00] Clearwater. It really does- That's Clearwater Beach ... and it's not painful to walk on- Right ... when you're trying to get to the water.  Sharon Pare: How about you, Mihai? Your eyes lit up earlier when I said, "What is that one beach?"  Myha Gallagher : Yes, that one beach absolutely is Clearwater Beach. I am a California girl, grew up in SoCal. And so I never made my way out to Florida until we started working with St. Pete Clearwater. I went out for a meeting, stepped out onto Clearwater Beach, and I was like, "I get it. This is why everyone loves this place so much." Yeah. The sugar sand, that is such a perfect description for it. It is ethereal, soft, amazing. Can't wait to go back.  Sharon Pare: And the sunsets too, right? Everyone forgets, like, y- you can't catch that sunset on the east side of Florida, but just make your way out west, you'll watch a dolphin- jumping through on the, in the water and watching that sunset all at the same time, right? Okay, next. Rooftop. Is there a rooftop, a hidden gem rooftop that you would recommend? [00:28:00]  Stephanie Alexander-Priakos: The Canopy at The Birchwood, Downtown St. Pete. There we go. Start. All right. Canopy at The Birchwood. All right. Meha, how about  Sharon Pare: you?  Myha Gallagher : You know, I haven't been on a ton of rooftops in St. Pete/Clearwater also, but someone from the Visit St. Pete team did take me to this speakeasy where you had to walk through... It looked like a laundromat, and then you had to walk behind the laundromat, and you go into this- That's cool ... beautiful speakeasy. I don't remember the name, so if you're listening to this and you wanna go, hit up the Visit St. Pete/Clearwater team.  Stephanie Alexander-Priakos: It's actually called Dirty Laundry, and it's a really cool place because it looks like a laundromat, but they have a secret door that takes you into the speakeasy. So another great place that we have in Downtown St. Pete.  Sharon Pare: That is very cool. That's why it's a speakeasy. Favorite local coffee shop. Stephanie, looks like this one's for you.  Stephanie Alexander-Priakos: Kahwa. It's K-A-H-W-A.  Sharon Pare: Beautiful local really tasty coffee. [00:29:00] Okay. Awesome. All right. Famous landmark. Stephanie, I know you mentioned the Dali Museum. If you had to pick a number two, any other famous landmarks that people should be looking at while they're there? Stephanie Alexander-Priakos: Oh my goodness me, you're gonna ask me to pick one. Hang on a second. Just one. Just one. First come to mind. I'm gonna say the pier on St. Petersburg. It's relatively new. It's absolutely stunning. There's so many restaurants over there, just so many different things to do on our pier. And again, you can hold a meeting there as well. They actually have 10,000 square feet of space at the pier that you're surrounded by water again- Yep ... on the Tampa Bay Area. Stunning. How about you, Jill? The Don  Jill Stone: CeSar. Mm, you see that- Don CeSar ... pink building and you know where you are. Uh, and I, yeah, I was j- like I said, I was just there last year and as soon as we saw it, I was like, "Oh, I know where we are." So again, yeah, [00:30:00] my, one of my favorite landmark anyway. Okay.  Myha Gallagher : Meha? I would say the Chihuly. The glass art pieces are incredible and otherworldly and, like Stephanie said, the only other place to see them is either at the Bellagio or in Seattle. And yeah, it's a can't-miss if you go to St. Pete/-Clearwater.  Sharon Pare: All right. This one's gonna be a tough one for all of you. Your favorite restaurant. Meha, I'm gonna start with you this time Oh gosh We'll leave Stephanie for last.  Myha Gallagher : Um, I gotta say, every restaurant I've eaten at in St. Pete/Clearwater has been fantastic. But the most memorable dining experience I had was actually, it was outside of the Sandpearl Hotel. They had set up those outside tents, and we were dining on this seafood buffet out on the beach, and it was just so incredible. My CEO and I talk about it [00:31:00] all the time because we're big seafood fans, and it was just so special. So any restaurant, and then also dining on seafood on the beach.  Jill Stone: Okay. Jill? You can't beat the beach and the seafood. I, uh, actually, the Wyndham's restaurant was really good. I know it sounds crazy to eat in a hotel. But some ... But it was ... They also have a, a patio that is right on the beach. And so we got a chance to do a little bit of both. So I really liked that restaurant.  Stephanie Alexander-Priakos: Stephanie? One of my personal favorites is Caretta's on the Gulf, and it is actually inside the Sandpearl Hotel. But I love their buffets that they do. They do a brunch. They'll do a Thanksgiving. They do a Christmas over there. And the attention to detail and just the standard of their food is superb.  Sharon Pare: All right. We're about coming up on time. But what I wanted to ... Some final thoughts, right? So if an association planner listening today is considering [00:32:00] trying a secondary market for the first time, what would you want them to know about St. Pete-Clearwater?  Stephanie Alexander-Priakos: I would just tell them to just come down and see for themselves. Jill, Meha, anything from  Jill Stone: you two? Stephanie's right. They should see it. They should also really consider that because what they've been spending, maybe in some of the larger cities, they could get so much more in a smaller destination. So they really should. And again, the beach. Can't beat it.  Myha Gallagher : I'd say St. Pete/Clearwater is a slice of heaven. It turned a California girl into a Florida lover, and I can't say that there's any harder task than that. Thank you all.  Sharon Pare: Jill, Meha, Stephanie, this has been such a fun conversation. I appreciate you all joining today and sharing your perspectives. And honestly, it's really exciting to see St. Pete-Clearwater make a name for itself on the map and become a major player [00:33:00] in the meetings and events space. So thanks to everyone for listening to this episode of Associations NOWw Presents: Industry Partners Series. Join us each month as we explore key topics relevant to association professionals, discuss the challenges and opportunities in the field today, and highlight the significant impact associations have on the economy, the US, and the world. Be sure to subscribe to our podcast on Apple, Spotify, or wherever you listen to your favorite podcasts And for more information on topics impacting the association space, visit Associations Now online at associationsnow.com.

From Data to Decisions: Helping Associations Better Understand Members

In this episode of Associations NOW Presents: Industry Partner Edition, guest host Sharon Pare of HighRoad Solutions sits down with Georgina Donahue, Director of Community Innovation and Strategy at Higher Logic, and Rachel Mace, CAE, Director of IT and Database at the National Pest Management Association, to discuss how associations can better understand members and use that insight to drive smarter strategy. They explain how most organizations have plenty of data but little usable intelligence because systems don’t integrate and staff lack a unified, individual-level view across programs, leading to decisions based on gut instinct and missed warning signs like “silent churners.” The guests distinguish reports from behavioral signals and patterns that predict engagement and renewal, share examples of targeted outreach and pandemic-era webinars boosting recruitment and retention, and discuss using engagement scoring, dashboards, and guidance to act at scale. They recommend auditing where data lives, focusing on high-signal sources, and making incremental improvements rather than chasing perfect data. Check out the video podcast here: https://youtu.be/QCQXIDc_cYI [https://youtu.be/QCQXIDc_cYI]   Associations NOW Presents is produced by Association Briefings [https://associationbriefings.com/].   Transcript Sharon Pare: [00:00:00] Welcome to this episode of Associations NOW Presents: Industry Partner Series, an original podcast from the American Society of Association Executives. I'm Sharon Pare, Partnerships Director at Highroad, and your host of this series throughout the year. This episode is sponsored by Higher Logic.  Today, we're excited to welcome Georgina Donahue, Director of Community Innovation and Strategy at Higher Logic, along with Rachel Mace, CAE, Director of IT and Database at the National Pest Management Association. Our conversation today is about how associations can better understand their members and turn that insight into smarter strategy. Georgina, Rachel, welcome to the show.  So I think this is something a lot of associations are quietly dealing with, so why don't we jump in? So let's start with something most associations don't want to say out loud. Most of them are making decisions about their members based on very [00:01:00] little actual insight. Why is that, and how common is it?  Georgina Donahue: I think that most associations have more data than they've ever had, right? They have data coming in from all over the place. They have their AMS records, their event history. They have a community platform. They have email opens, right? So they have this huge bulk of data, but the problem is that almost none of it actually talks to each other, so they end up flying blind even though they have this embarrassment of riches, but they can't access it. They don't know which members are thriving and which ones are drifting, which ones are gonna silently churn in a couple months from now. And the problem actually is not just small organizations who don't have the resources to wrangle the data. It's large, sophisticated tech stacks see this problem as well because the data exists, but it's just really siloed  Rachel Mace, CAE: Yeah, I would have to echo that. There's a lot of silos. [00:02:00] Almost every time I start a job at an association or even at a vendor that services associations, the first thing we have to deal with is untangle the glut of information that they have, what they want to actually access and use. And then we also have to talk through, okay, once we decide what we're gonna use, how are we gonna get it there? Integrations remain such a huge problem with most associations. We find that our data lives in completely separate places, and that data doesn't pipe into new places very easily. So that's been a big issue, and it's not the association staff's fault. We are not integration engineers. We are not high-level data scientists. We came here to work in the nonprofit industry and serve our members. We don't have a background in that expertise. So that data mess exists everywhere, large associations or small associations, and we find that more and more association professionals, whether they like to admit it or not, are starting to realize that they can't make decisions based on the gut anymore, which is how we were making decisions.[00:03:00]  I can even recall way back in the 20-teens encountering a situation where an association professional said, "I have an idea. We're gonna use the power of social credit, so to speak, to get people to reach out to each other and encourage them to join the association." But the problem was this professional was working in a trade association environment, so the other member associations or prospect member associations were competitors, and it's very hard to convince a competitor to join the same association as you. But their gut said, "I've seen referral campaigns work throughout the private sector or in professional societies where it's the individual that's the member." So they went with their gut, and that campaign didn't work out, and they thought this is a personal failure. It's not. It's just you didn't have access to the insights and data that you needed to safely feel you could experiment with those types of campaigns in a way that's a bit more controlled with a bit more information behind it  Georgina Donahue: Yeah. I think the other thing that we're seeing in the space is that [00:04:00] as our industry standards for social interaction and for engagement with for-profit brands, for social brands, anything, it rises, right? We're used to having the Netflix algorithm know exactly what show we want to watch next. We're used to logging into a new platform and selecting our content preferences immediately, and then having really sophisticated algorithms understand who we are, know who we are. So at the same time that our association professionals are trying to sort through this, sometimes relying on that gut instinct, the base of members, their standards are rising because they're used to it in other areas, right? And so that gut instinct is becoming less and less effective for them because there was some grace, there was some buffer there, right? And now members, because of what they're experiencing in the consumer space, do not have [00:05:00] that grace that they're willing to offer. They're a little bit more frustrated, and they expect us to know who they are, and they expect us to tailor and segment our message specifically to their journey  Sharon Pare: I wanna dig into the gut instinct part a little bit later, but you, Georgina, talked about something you call the silent churner. Can you explain what that is? Is that like the quiet quitter? I- is that a little bit similar? Tell us a little bit about that. Georgina Donahue: It kind of is. It is. It's the most dangerous member that you have, because everybody has the members that are squeaky wheels, that maybe they're frustrated, maybe there's some dissatisfaction, and they are telling you the areas that they would like to see improvement. While sometimes a sassy email might be difficult to receive in the moment, they are giving you very clear instructions about what they need in order to continue to receive value from the association. The silent churner is the most dangerous. They just go quiet, and then by the time they don't renew, they've already made the decision not to renew three or [00:06:00] four months ago, and they've already been quietly stepping away, so they stop attending events, they stop posting in the community, they stop sending sassy emails asking for their hopes and dreams to be fulfilled, right? And many associations don't find out that a member has churned until the renewal doesn't come through, and it's way too late to make a change because there's already a history of taking a step back and looking for other resources for support.  Rachel Mace, CAE: And this is an area where I feel like associations, their gut actually is probably correct. They already know who's not gonna renew inside. We know that if you're a new member and you don't do enough with us in that first year, you're probably not going to renew. We know if you're an existing member and your engagement falls off, we know you're not going to renew. We know if you're nearing retirement, you're not gonna renew. So we in our guts understand and know who isn't going to renew, but the challenge is identifying them proactively and being able to do something about it six months before that renewal cycle [00:07:00] hits. Because once you get to the renewal cycle, it's a little too late to ask someone to open up their wallet and invest in membership again. So we really need intelligence to tell us, "Hey, I've flagged these bottom 20% of engagers. I need those people to do something, anything." And what they really need, I've always told this to people, is you need to put them in a low barrier to access activity, not something that's gonna require a huge outlay of cash. If I'm new to ASAE, I'm not gonna tell you to go to the ASAE Annual Conference. That's a huge outlay of cash. But I might say, "Hey, why don't you go into ASAE Collaborate and ask a burning question? It's a private, safe space where you can ask something that maybe you wouldn't wanna ask on LinkedIn or publicly." It's a great way to get me engaged, give me something sticky to do, and maybe I will think about that as I renew next year. It's not the big ask, it's the ask that's practical and reasonable for me, a low engager. But we as association professionals, [00:08:00] we know that the low engagers, those are the ones who are gonna silently churn, if anyone  Sharon Pare: I want to unpack this a little bit more, and I know you started to dig into this a little bit too, Rachel, but what's actually causing this? Why can't most associations see the full picture of their members?  Georgina Donahue: I think the reason why it's so endemic across the entire sector is not because association professionals don't want to have a better view, or it hasn't occurred to them that a better view would be advantageous. I think that they're really, they really want this. But the tools that they use were never designed to talk to each other by default, right? And a lot of times you're making really the decisions about your technology choices, about your technology s- stack. You are choosing best-in-class tools, right? And the best events platform and the best member management platform and the best education platform, but they weren't designed together. They were designed separately. And so it means that [00:09:00] no single staff member has a unified view of the individual member, right? The membership team sees one thing, the education team sees another thing, the events team has a different perspective. It's all broken up, and it's organized by program, right? I can see which events had the most attendees, but it's not broken out by the individual human, by the person. I don't necessarily just want to see, okay, which event topic was the most popular. I want to see, okay, who are my bottom 20% and which events did they say no to or yes to, and what kinds of conversations in the community pulled them in, and what kind of emails were most valuable to them? It's this lack of a unified view by individuals across programs is just really elusive. Rachel Mace, CAE: Yeah, and it's not a problem with the association staff, although they often take the blame and feel guilty when they talk about this issue, but the actual issue is [00:10:00] an architecture problem. These platforms are sold to you, and one of the things that they're trying to give you is the best possible user experience. So they want you to have the best possible user experience. So their investment when they deliver these tools to you, these best-in-class tools, is often on that user experience. Integrations is often a place where th- we forget, hey, we have to integrate this data, or we have to pull this data into some sort of central mechanism where we can see the whole picture of the whole member, and that's often thrown by the wayside because we wanna make sure that, A, member-facing things are good, and B, association staff user experience is good. But when I worked in the vendor space, a lot of times integrations were the most frustrating things we had ever had conversations about because we had everything we needed to give the association staff what, what they were asking for, but then we would get held up by simple things like, "Oh, we can't integrate that data because that data doesn't really exist there. It's a calculated column." And I'm like, "We can't get that calculated column?" And they're like, "No, we have to create a new [00:11:00] table." And you would go down these rabbit holes of these crazy blockers, and you're like, "Wow, how is it 2020 whatever, and I still cannot integrate my data relatively seamlessly?" And it's something that I'm not even seeing AI do a good job of addressing. These integrations still continue to be a challenge. And I know that when I worked at American Bankers Association, when I first got there, I thought, "Well, I will have so many more resources to integrate the data and see that big picture of the member." And I remember walking in there at that big association with all the investment they can make in technology, and it's worse. They have more systems, more layers, more silos. I'm like, "Wait, I can't even figure out who's engaging with each other in the community, and I work in membership." So I-- it can be even worse at big associations because you have layers of silos of people that are like, "I'm not gonna make you an admin in my system," or, "That's my system, and I don't really wanna pipe that data back there." So we have this huge problem, and it's compounded by [00:12:00] silos. It's compounded by architecture. It's compounded by integrations. So even in 2026, where we expect AI will solve all our problems, this is something that I'm not sure that AI at this point can solve.  Sharon Pare: So it really sounds more less a people problem and more of a systems architecture problem, right? So I guess let's build on that. There's a difference between having data and having insight. What does member intelligence actually mean in practice, and how is it different from just pulling a report?  Georgina Donahue: The data points that you gather are just the stuff that your systems log, right? The logins, the registrations, the email opens, all of that, right? The signals and the insights are the story that multiple of those data points together paint for you, right? And you need to be able to pull from many different mediums in order to see the story that those data points are telling you. So behavioral signals are what actually predicts [00:13:00] engagement and renewal, and that's the narrative insight that you're really looking for. So the signals that matter most aren't demographics or clicks or logins or sessions or anything like that. They're the patterns, right? The login frequency, the types of content that's being consumed. And so that's the difference between data and intelligence. It's the context. So a login, if you tell me a login to an online community, I can't really do very much with that. But if you show me a member who logged in every single week for six months and then stopped logging in at all three months ago, that's a signal. Did the email go dead? Did you get a new job? Are you starting to feel like this is not the right place for you? Are you feeling boxed out? Is there a clique going on that you don't wanna enter into, right? Things like that. And so those are the types of insights that we're looking for. I'll give an example, and I know Rachel has a really good example of [00:14:00] this too that she'll share. So I previously worked for an education organization, and we provided educational sessions and training, and there was an online community for all of the alumni of that program. And we had resources about each of the courses in the community, and we were able to manually, mind you, because the architecture wasn't supporting us either, we were able to pull a list of everyone who had reviewed community library content on topic A, and then we cross-referenced it with everybody who had taken the course on topic A. And we found about 50% of the people who were viewing those library resources hadn't taken the course, and we wanted to drive education. So we created a targeted outreach campaign and said, "Hey, I can see that you're really interested in this topic. I would love to support your development and ongoing education. I have a course for you. It was so successful, Sharon. It was crazy. We were all [00:15:00] delighted. We had a 50% close rate and success rate on that course, and people were genuinely grateful and so happy. And so that is a story that we built from the data, and then a success-driving approach that we used to bring something really personal that came from that, that we never would've gotten from just how many people viewed library documents, right? I know that Rachel has examples of this as well, when we finally wrangled the data enough to paint that picture.  Rachel Mace, CAE: Yeah, and I'll lead with the example. So I had the privilege of working with American Bankers during the pandemic, and I say privilege because what I witnessed in terms of how they came together to serve their members was nothing short of jaw-dropping. So as we went into the beginnings of the pandemic, we had some staff members become subject matter experts on what was going on with the virus, just general stuff from the CDC, and really being thoughtful about how they delivered that messaging. It was a [00:16:00] source of comfort for the staff and a source of kind of that predictable, what's the next step? Where are we going from here? Is there a plan? And that person and the people supporting that person realized that this was so beneficial to the staff. The staff were giving a lot of good feedback. They took that feedback and said, "Maybe we should be offering this to our members." And they started these webinars offering that to that m- to those members. And as we're seeing these members hop on these calls, we're also seeing that non-members are hopping on the calls, 'cause we didn't feel, at that point, it was a crisis, we didn't feel we should be exclusionary. What happened was a lot of these non-members getting on the call saw our commitment to delivering timely, relevant, and good information to our members. They became members. We saw a jump in our retention rate and a jump in our recruitment rate as a result immediately during and following the pandemic because they were like, "Look, this is an organization that's going to support us even through the worst of times." And because we were [00:17:00] providing these resources and being intentional in how we evaluated that data, are we getting non-members coming? Are we getting members coming? Okay, these five non-members came. Can someone give them a call? Because we were taking action and being very agile in what we were doing with that data, we were able to break records that I don't think even the highest level of management thought were possible, and that's because data is not about reporting. It is not about sending a metric to your boss and saying, "Okay, we're up 200 members this year." Great. Awesome. It's about informing. We're up 200 members this year because it appears people really love the webinar series we did about the state of the industry. That's the story. That's the why. And if you cannot isolate these things to the why, and you're just reporting, you'll never move to that next step of growing. And associations do need to grow because there's a lot of competition out there. And Georgina said earlier, the expectation is that you're listening to your members' behaviors. You're watching [00:18:00] what they do with you and adjusting your strategy to match that energy of what they're expressing to you via behaviors what they want. Sharon Pare: Let's take a quick break for a word from our episode sponsor, Higher Logic. Higher Logic unifies your community, marketing, learning, events, and more into one connected engagement platform so every member touchpoint feels personal. With AI-powered campaigns and vibrant online communities, your members feel seen, supported, and excited to engage every day. Because everything works together, your team spends less time managing technology and more time advancing your mission. Plus, you get built-in strategic guidance and hands-on support to boost retention and turn passive members into passionate advocates. See how Higher Logic is revolutionizing engagement by booking your demo at higherlogic.com. So we talk about that bottom 20%, [00:19:00] so let's flip that for a second. On the flip side of the at-risk members, you also talk about power users, your most engaged members. Are most associations actually leveraging those people?  Georgina Donahue: Yes, many are, but many wish that they were able to do so to a greater capacity, right? Because engagement data is not just gonna tell you about who to save, and we've talked a lot about mitigating risks so far in this conversation. But engagement data is not just about who to save. It tells you who to invest in further, who to really give extra love and care and development to because they are really ready for it, and there's a benefit to your member, and there's a benefit to the organization as well, right? And so the real heart and the real strength of any association is absolutely its members. And so everybody wants to find a way to leverage members for advocacy, for mentorship, for volunteer pipelines, for peer-to-peer recruitment, for board [00:20:00] leadership positions, anything, right? And that's where the real strength and kind of flywheel of success comes from. So when you can identify the top 5%, 10% of engaged members, it's really likely that you are looking at a list of your next committee chairs, of your conference speakers, of your community moderators, right? And so if we can find a way to identify them and then throw more and more engagement opportunities to help level them up in their engagement maturity, then that is a win-win for everybody. It feels really good to members to be recognized for your investment and for your desires to grow alongside an association, and it strengthens the organization to have more insight, more knowledge directly coming from the member base.  Rachel Mace, CAE: And we at the National Pest Management Association do something I actually don't see at associations very often, but it's modeled a little bit after [00:21:00] DELP. But I don't want to say modeled after DELP, because I don't want to not give them credit. They have done this phenomenal thing, and this is where they identify people who are relatively engaged, and they put them into a program that prepares them for leadership in a board or volunteer leadership in general. It moves them to the next step educationally so that they always have an incoming class of people who are ready to be the leaders of that industry for the next generation. So one of the things that you wanna look for when you're looking for who might fit well isn't, "I've checked all the boxes." That's a big thing, especially at Association Linux, we would get clients that say, "I'll look for someone who's done a little bit of everything." That doesn't necessarily mean that your pool of volunteers should come from there. Sometimes your pool of volunteers comes from somebody who attends the annual meeting many times. Sometimes that pool of volunteers comes from somebody who always attends your legislative day. You don't wanna misinterpret that the fact that someone's not engaging in all [00:22:00] the pieces of the pie as some sort of signal that they're not ready to engage as a volunteer leader. It's a very big problem I think we have, because we're used to wanting to see parts of a whole, and we're like, "Okay, if you complete all five things, you're ready to go." Mm. But you need to meet people where they are. So when you look into your data, you wanna discover patterns. Rachel Mace goes to annual meeting every year, and sometimes she pops into MMCT, but she doesn't always go on to Collaborate, or she doesn't always attend webinars. Does that mean that she can't be an effective board member? No, it means that maybe she values more in-person encounters than digital connection. So it's very important when you're looking through engagement data to realize that there's always going to be some level of interpretation here. Am I looking for somebody who checks all the boxes? Probably not. You're looking for somebody who's engaged, and engaged in the way that fits best for them. And that's how you'll discover, when you go through this process, you're gonna have a hidden gem pile, where you're like, "Oh, wait a minute, [00:23:00] this person, we would have never considered as a volunteer, but they really should be a volunteer because they are participating in a meaningful way. It's just maybe they're an introvert, and they're the inverse of Rachel, and they only want to participate digitally." They can still be an effective leader, even if they're more of a digital participator than an in-person participator. So it's very important as you look at your engagement data not to get too, I call it perfectionist. Like, with your, with, check all the boxes and do all the things. No. Look for those hidden gems. Look for those insights where somebody is almost all digital. Think about different ways to look at that data, not just, you did an annual meeting, you did the Collaborate, you did this, you did that. Think of it more of, is somebody clustering their engagement in a certain modality? Are they clustering their engagement in a certain season? Because they could still be an amazing and effective volunteer or a highly engaged member that helps build your membership further.  Sharon Pare: So you've described a data problem that's really an architecture problem. Everything is siloed, right? We've talked about that at the beginning of [00:24:00] this podcast. What does it actually take to fix that? Where does that technology come in?  Georgina Donahue: It's a really good question. It's one that I am really excited about and think a lot about. We've talked a lot about how most associations, the reason that they're data dark isn't a lack of motivation, it's architecture, right? These tools are not designed to share information. You can have five great platforms, and you still have a zero unified view of who your member is, right? And so it can be very tempting to be like, "Okay, my tools aren't talking to each other. I need different tools," right? The fix is not to replace everything. The fix is not to rip out all of your tools and try to slot in new ones. It's convergence. It's creating a single space where all the signals from your existing systems can really come together so that then you do have the ability for an individual staff person to look at one screen and see the full member picture, right? And so at Higher Logic, we [00:25:00] know this is the path that is required, creating that converged space for existing tools, because we've invested so deeply in customer partnerships. So at Higher Logic, we spearhead something, a group that's called the Customer Innovation Lab, and we have enlisted our members, our association members and customers, to really deeply co-create with us so that we're building exactly what they need, right? And so at any software organization, you need to know exactly what the problems are and exactly where the sticking points are in order to provide a solution that is actually going to create meaningful change. One of the most exciting things about my role and the way that I interact with associations is by participating in this Customer Innovation Lab and co-creating alongside, right? And because of the fact that we haven't just assumed what's necessary, we're using feedback and ideation sessions that are fueling Higher Logic to [00:26:00] develop a new product. We are creating a 360-degree view of your member, so a single source of truth that pulls together all of your members' activities across Higher Logic tools and systems, and every other system that your association uses, right? So you pull in the data from your AMS, from your email platform, your event tools, anywhere that you are gathering data and any surface area where those interactions are happening with your members. We have built this tool with integrations at the center and visibility at the center. So for the first time- You can come in and you can look at one record, and you can see the complete picture of that member. And so you can finally know your member as well as they expect you to and as well as you want them to. So you have your community behavior, your event history, content consumption, all of it in a single place. So I'm really excited to have [00:27:00] worked so closely with our customers and with association professionals to craft this solution and offer it back to the people that are doing such important work.  Rachel Mace, CAE: And with that being said, you're giving us something new to work with, but the onus is on the association. We're seeing this shift where vendors are like, "We want to give you what you're looking for." Then when we get what we're looking for, we as association professionals have a big job to do, and that first job is to make sure that our staff, 'cause architecture is a problem, but silos are, too. Our staff need to understand, hey, here is this new tool. We don't need to silo our Higher Logic or our AMS. We don't need to silo these tools. We need to encourage staff members to get into these tools and start using that data. And if you sit in a role like I do, information technology and database, which is a big many hat role actually, your job also is to serve just like you would serve a member, is to serve your [00:28:00] staff and say, "Look, here is a tool you can use. Here's what you can get from it. Let me know where the gaps exist," and encourage them to take some experimental leaps into these tools and start making informed decisions. Because a lot of times you'll deliver a tool to someone, and I know this from the vendor side, and they'll say, "Okay, now what?" The “now what” is you, and we need to find a way to come together as association staff. It's not, "This is my member data over here" anymore. It's, "This is our member. How can we each make a difference serving them?" So part of the role of an IT professional in the association space is to socialize using that data, starting to experiment with that data, and making informed decisions using that data. It- the onus has to be on someone. Someone has to take ownership of that, or that data will just sit there. You'll have an amazing tool, and that data will just sit there. So it's ex- incredibly important that as we get tools like this, not only do we [00:29:00] use them in the roles that are like the community manager, but we encourage the rest of the staff at large to take part in using these tools. And then as we get using these tools, if there are deficits, rather than stop using the tool, it's important to relay back to our partners, like Higher Logic or other partners in the space, "Hey, you've built this tool. I really like this tool, but here's where it's not serving me." Because if you don't give that feedback to these vendors, they can't possibly know what you want. They'll just know that you stopped using it, but they won't know the why. So it is on us also to give data back to them and say, "Okay, I'm having a hard time getting my membership and meetings team using this data because..." and then you answer that question.  Sharon Pare: So now you have a unified member view, but most asso- associations have thousands of members, sometimes maybe tens of thousands. How do you actually act on all that data at scale? How do you go from visibility to strategy?  Rachel Mace, CAE: So this is something that frustrates me as an association professional because [00:30:00] a lot of tools will get you right to that point. I've even worked with several very brilliant people on a predictive tool, and it hands you on a silver platter the data. It says, "Oh, these are the people that are likely to renew. These are the people not likely to renew." You get that, and then your customer said, "Okay, now what?" You're like, "Well, do something with it." They're like, "What do I do?" And this is because association professionals have a very unfair lot in life because they are expected to be data scientists, strategic professionals, executives. They're expected to be so many roles, all those hats we always talk about. But at the same time, when you get all this data, you're like, "I don't want to put anything at risk by making a decision I shouldn't make, and this is a little outside of my normal purview." So you have this discomfort with what do I even do with this information? Georgina Donahue: And I completely agree with Rachel that visibility is step one, but then what are you supposed to do with [00:31:00] it after? Once you have the information, what's the next step? And so the answer there is really surfacing and support. And we, as a vendor that supports associations, think a lot about that. Not just how do I hand the data over, but how do I fully support this group of professionals and help guide them through the best choices based on the data that we have, right? So one of the things that we've been working on, and that I have the honor of working on directly, is using dashboards and engagement scoring to let the data tell you where to focus. So you shouldn't have to dig through every single record. The system should show you. The system should say, "Here's your at-risk members, here's your power users, here's your enga- engagement that's trending, and here's the next step. Here's what most people tend to do when they have these types of results. Here are the best practices for how you fix this problem. Here [00:32:00] is the triaging phase," right? "Your data shows this. Here's the diagnosis. Here's the most likely approach that is going to create a positive outcome for you." So that's one of the things that we're building with Higher Logic's new suite of dashboards, specifically for the community product, is really surfacing all of the engagement signals that matter across your full community member base and pairing them with the actions and next steps, right? We don't just want to give people a chart. We want to give them a pathway, guidance on how to interpret your data, validated recommendations for next steps based on years of community data from our user group, HUG, right? All of the next steps, the signals, the things that point you towards the areas to focus next. And that way you can really support your membership base without burning out your staff, asking them to do 200 different jobs at an A+ level 100% of the time. Of course, support is [00:33:00] required.  Rachel Mace, CAE: And I'm very excited about this development because a lot of associations, even big ones, don't have a really big community staff looking at that data, working with that data, fostering the engagement in the platform. So having this is like having an unpaid assistant on your staff. Now you have somebody kind of serving up this information to you so that you can just be action-oriented. More actions, more experimentation, more work, as opposed to more chasing numbers or reporting numbers. So I'm extremely enthusiastic to see what comes out of this. Sharon Pare: Because visibility alone isn't enough, right? You want to actually do something with it. All right, so let's make this real. Rachel, let's turn this to you. Let's talk about what actually changes day to day for association staff when they have this kind of member intelligence. How does a job look different? Rachel Mace, CAE: So one of the things that we were working on in Association Analytics, myself and Heather were talking through what do we inform people about what their job will look like? Because a lot of [00:34:00] times there's a little bit of fear. Okay, I have all these tools now that are doing part of my day-to-day. It's painful work. No one loves doing VLOOKUPs all day, but at the same time, you're like, "What am I going to do next?" I want to give you hope. This means that you get to use the whole part of your brain. Your job is no longer reacting to data, reacting to numbers. Now you're proactive. Now you get to be strategic. You get to grow, you get to experiment. You get to actually move the needle on what members want and value. And if something doesn't, you can factor in, "If this doesn't work out, we'll pivot to this." Factor in your pivots. This will make your career so much more robust. Now you're becoming an expert in these types of decisions, as opposed to a reactor who reports numbers. And if you really want to grow as a professional, it's important for you to get ahead of reaction and start thinking proactively about doing something new. One of the things that really attracted me to NPMA was that even though they have data challenges, they're extremely proactive. They're like, "Let's get [00:35:00] ahead of this. Members seem to be talking about this. I see enthusiasm behind this." They look out at the marketplace, and they react to those inputs, even though they have to do a lot of it manually, because they are essentially a member-driven decision engine, not a member-driven reporting engine. And they spend less of their time digging and sifting through numbers, and now that they've hired me, I can dig and sift a little bit for them so that they can actually get some validation behind these programs. But they run on all cylinders member facing. Member facing is the ultimate and first priority, and I would love to see more of that in the association space, because a lot of times we get stuck in our job or we're just reporting internally. We're almost invisible. But once you get out there, your entire staff is fostering relationships with the members that they serve, you're going to see that your members become obsessed with your association. They're like, "This is somewhere I want to be. I want to be a part of this." Naturally, just by you engaging in that way with your members, your membership will start becoming more sticky. [00:36:00] Your meetings will have a feel of authenticity and enthusiasm that they didn't have before. So it's important to embrace that part of that slugging through reports may be a p- a thing of the past. Embrace these tools and get out there and start producing things that your members can see and give you feedback on, ultimately value.  Sharon Pare: For an association that's still flying blind right now, no unified views, decisions based on that gut instinct we talked about earlier, what's the one thing you'd tell them to do first? Georgina Donahue: I think they're gonna take this advice, Sharon, because the picture and the beautiful vision of the future that Rachel just painted is so exciting, and I'm betting that folks are gonna be really galvanized by that. I would say that the first step is do an overview, take an-- Start with an audit of where your member data actually lives today. And I'm not talking about the kind of hopeful interpretation of where it should be or the vision of the [00:37:00] future just yet. Where is it actually? And list every system that knows something about a member that you use to make decisions about serving your members, right? And then ask which of those systems has the richest signal source. Where are you getting the insights from? Where does the story start to jump out at you from in terms of those systems? For most associations, it's community behavior that is the m- that is the richest, the logins, the posts, the replies, and also event data, what people are attending, because those signals are reflecting active engagement more than passive receipt, right? So that tends to be where it will come from. But of course, look at what makes sense for you. It might be different in your association, so look at that. And then, of course, I also recommend keep an eye on us. Keep an eye on Higher Logic. This is gonna be a really exciting second half of this year, and I am so jazzed to bring this to the space, [00:38:00] because that unified view of your member that is deeply built on visibility, highly sophisticated integrations that you're supported through, as well as dashboards and data that walks you through the next steps, is gonna be an incredible game changer. And there's all sorts of, of kind of fun and really powerful features that are in there. Dynamic list building, show me everyone who this story applies to, those types of things, as well as automations. And of course, there's a little AI mixed in there, too, as every new product has. And so I'm really excited to see what types of changes happen there. But for today, start with where the data actually lives. Look for the systems that are giving you the richest signals and the most compelling stories.  Rachel Mace, CAE: I totally agree, and I will add a piece of advice that I have said for years and I wish that more people would take to heart. And I'm talking to myself first because this was a hard point for me to change in my own personal professional journey. [00:39:00] I am the culprit of this more than probably anyone else, but stop chasing perfection in data to make decisions. The longer you slug over validating data, the longer you go through the process of, is this the right data? Is it perfect? Most people also are fighting over the last 5% of data and then not making decisions because the last 5% isn't correct. Instead, enough for a trend, that's all you need to start making decisions. Stop chasing perfection. Get good enough to make an incremental improvement and make those incremental improvements, observe, and then improve more. I have a prioritization board right now, and it's all based on incrementalism. I'm not looking to reinvent the wheel with our tech stack overnight. It's let's use this one feature. In fact, I'll be finding people at Higher Logic Super Forum to ask a couple of questions to make the user experience for our staff members better on the Higher Logic side because I want incremental improvements so we can continue progressing how we use these tools. [00:40:00] So today you could go look at your members up for renewal if that's the time of year for you, or if this is the time of year where you're opening up registration for a major conference in the fall, look for one incremental improvement you might be able to make to that process. Can I send a better letter to my members before I even invoice them? Can I send them a quick survey or some sort of communication? Can I normalize talking about what we've done throughout the association throughout the year before I send out the invoice so they know, hey, I'm not just asking you for money, I have delivered for you this year. Do one thing, monitor it, look at it. Don't wait for perfect data and say, "Look, data's pointing to this being pretty effective. Let's expand on that." Incrementalism, stop chasing perfection, and I think you will see a huge payoff from that effort.  Sharon Pare: Rachel, Georgina, this has been a really incredible conversation. I know we could talk more about it, and I know you've got a big conference next week to be able to really [00:41:00] dig into this with your users and of course your clients as well. There's a lot of really practical insight here for associations, so again, thank you so much for taking the time today. Thank you. Thank you. Thanks to everyone for listening to this episode of Associations NOW Presents Industry Partner Series. Join us each month as we explore key topics relevant to association professionals, discuss the challenges and opportunities in the field today, and highlight the significant impact associations have on the economy, the US, and the world. We want to give a big thanks again to our episode sponsor, Higher Logic. For more information or to book a demo, visit higherlogic.com. Be sure to subscribe to our podcast on Apple, Spotify, or wherever you listen to your favorite podcasts. And for more information on topics impacting the association space, visit Associations Now online at [00:42:00] associationsnow.com.