Lenny's Podcast: Product | Growth | Career

Farhan Thawar is the head of engineering at Shopify, where he oversees more than 1,000 engineers and a platform that powers over 10% of all U.S. e-commerce. Before Shopify, he was VP of engineering at Pivotal Labs and Xtreme Labs, and co-founder of Helpful.com. In our conversation, Farhan shares: • Why choosing the harder path leads to better outcomes • How to create intensity within your org (without burnout) • Why every company should be embracing pair programming • How he hires without interviewing • How he built the world’s largest internship program • His mission to create a “crafter’s paradise” for engineers • Much more — Brought to you by: • DX [https://getdx.com/lenny]—A platform for measuring and improving developer productivity • Persona [https://withpersona.com/lenny]—A global leader in digital identity verification • Vanta [https://vanta.com/lenny]—Automate compliance. Simplify security — Find the transcript at: https://www.lennysnewsletter.com/p/how-shopify-builds-a-high-intensity-culture-farhan-thawer [https://www.lennysnewsletter.com/p/how-shopify-builds-a-high-intensity-culture-farhan-thawer] — Where to find Farhan Thawar: • X: https://x.com/fnthawar [https://x.com/fnthawar] • LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/fnthawar [https://www.linkedin.com/in/fnthawar/] — Where to find Lenny: • Newsletter: https://www.lennysnewsletter.com [https://www.lennysnewsletter.com] • X: https://twitter.com/lennysan [https://twitter.com/lennysan] • LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/lennyrachitsky/ [https://www.linkedin.com/in/lennyrachitsky/] — In this episode, we cover: (00:00) Farhan’s background (05:38) Choosing the hard path (09:37) Getting comfortable with looking dumb (13:20) Lessons from working with visionaries (19:19) Creating intensity in organizations (22:06) The power of pair programming (29:18) Shopify’s culture of intensity (37:18) Meeting Armageddon: revolutionizing company meetings (39:46) Reducing distractions (41:10) Deleting 1M+ lines of code (49:05) Three buckets of building (57:45) Remote work and trust battery (01:00:29) Finding stability in uncomfortable times (01:03:14) Hiring philosophy (01:11:41) Internship programs and co-op systems (01:15:32) Lessons from managing 120 direct reports (01:20:40) Failure corner (01:27:46) Lightning round and closing thoughts — Referenced: • The Steve Jobs quote about connecting dots: https://www.goodreads.com/quotes/463176-you-can-t-connect-the-dots-looking-forward-you-can-only [https://www.goodreads.com/quotes/463176-you-can-t-connect-the-dots-looking-forward-you-can-only] • Shopify: https://www.shopify.com/ [https://www.shopify.com/] • GitHub: https://github.com/ [https://github.com/] • Farhan’s “questions to ask” framework: https://x.com/fnthawar/status/1514193402828574721 [https://x.com/fnthawar/status/1514193402828574721] • Palantir: https://www.palantir.com/ [https://www.palantir.com/] • Joe Liemandt: https://www.linkedin.com/in/liemandt [https://www.linkedin.com/in/liemandt] • Chamath Palihapitya: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chamath_Palihapitiya [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chamath_Palihapitiya] • Xtreme Labs: https://www.xtremelabs.io [https://www.xtremelabs.io] • Parkinson’s law: https://www.verywellmind.com/what-is-parkinsons-law-6674423 [https://www.verywellmind.com/what-is-parkinsons-law-6674423] • Pair programming: https://dev.to/documatic/pair-programming-best-practices-and-tools-154j [https://dev.to/documatic/pair-programming-best-practices-and-tools-154j] • Cody Fauser on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/codyfauser [https://www.linkedin.com/in/codyfauser] • How Shopify builds product: https://www.lennysnewsletter.com/p/how-shopify-builds-product [https://www.lennysnewsletter.com/p/how-shopify-builds-product] • Chaos Monkey: We look at Shopify’s new ‘culture of focus’: https://www.siliconrepublic.com/careers/shopify-chaos-monkey-meetings-culture-deann-evans [https://www.siliconrepublic.com/careers/shopify-chaos-monkey-meetings-culture-deann-evans] • Empowering devs with AI: How Shopify made GitHub Copilot core to its culture: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wVKBwcm5dbw&t=2318s [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wVKBwcm5dbw&t=2318s] • Tobi Lütke of Shopify: Powering a Team with a ‘Trust Battery’: https://www.nytimes.com/2016/04/24/business/tobi-lutke-of-shopify-powering-a-team-with-a-trust-battery.html [https://www.nytimes.com/2016/04/24/business/tobi-lutke-of-shopify-powering-a-team-with-a-trust-battery.html] • Brian Chesky’s new playbook: https://www.lennysnewsletter.com/p/brian-cheskys-contrarian-approach [https://www.lennysnewsletter.com/p/brian-cheskys-contrarian-approach] • Stop Being Deceived by Interviews When You’re Hiring: https://www.forbes.com/sites/forbesleadershipforum/2012/02/07/stop-being-deceived-by-interviews-when-youre-hiring/ [https://www.forbes.com/sites/forbesleadershipforum/2012/02/07/stop-being-deceived-by-interviews-when-youre-hiring/] • Shopify’s made the Life Story a major part of their interview: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=39294140 [https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=39294140] • Internships at Shopify: https://internships.shopify.com [https://internships.shopify.com] • Nick Adams on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/nick-adams-32b28139 [https://www.linkedin.com/in/nick-adams-32b28139/] • React Native: https://reactnative.dev [https://reactnative.dev] • Swift: https://www.swift.org [https://www.swift.org] • Acquired podcast: The Mark Zuckerberg interview: https://www.acquired.fm/episodes/the-mark-zuckerberg-interview [https://www.acquired.fm/episodes/the-mark-zuckerberg-interview] • The Power of Performance Reviews: Use This System to Become a Better Manager: https://review.firstround.com/the-power-of-performance-reviews-use-this-system-to-become-a-better-manager [https://review.firstround.com/the-power-of-performance-reviews-use-this-system-to-become-a-better-manager/] • Airbnb’s Vlad Loktev on embracing chaos, inquiry over advocacy, poking the bear, and “impact, impact, impact” (Partner at Index Ventures, Airbnb GM/VP Product): https://www.lennysnewsletter.com/p/impact-impact-impact-vlad-loktev [https://www.lennysnewsletter.com/p/impact-impact-impact-vlad-loktev] • The Secret to a Great Planning Process—Lessons from Airbnb and Eventbrite: https://review.firstround.com/the-secret-to-a-great-planning-process-lessons-from-airbnb-and-eventbrite [https://review.firstround.com/the-secret-to-a-great-planning-process-lessons-from-airbnb-and-eventbrite/] • How to do great work: https://www.paulgraham.com/greatwork.html [https://www.paulgraham.com/greatwork.html] • Challengers on Prime: https://www.amazon.com/Challengers-Luca-Guadagnino/dp/B0CX5MZ9M4 [https://www.amazon.com/Challengers-Luca-Guadagnino/dp/B0CX5MZ9M4] • Halt and Catch Fire on Prime: https://www.amazon.com/Halt-Catch-Fire-Season-1/dp/B0CKXZNT96 [https://www.amazon.com/Halt-Catch-Fire-Season-1/dp/B0CKXZNT96] • Meta Ray-Bans: https://www.meta.com/smart-glasses/shop-all [https://www.meta.com/smart-glasses/shop-all] • Making Meta | Andrew ‘Boz’ Bosworth (CTO): https://www.lennysnewsletter.com/p/making-meta-andrew-boz-bosworth-cto [https://www.lennysnewsletter.com/p/making-meta-andrew-boz-bosworth-cto] — Recommended books: • The Undoing Project: A Friendship That Changed Our Minds: https://www.amazon.com/Undoing-Project-Friendship-Changed-Minds/dp/0393254593 [https://www.amazon.com/Undoing-Project-Friendship-Changed-Minds/dp/0393254593] • Range: Why Generalists Triumph in a Specialized World: https://www.amazon.com/Range-Generalists-Triumph-Specialized-World/dp/0735214484 [https://www.amazon.com/Range-Generalists-Triumph-Specialized-World/dp/0735214484] • Manna: Two Visions of Humanity’s Future: https://www.amazon.com/Manna-Two-Visions-Humanitys-Future-ebook/dp/B007HQH67U [https://www.amazon.com/Manna-Two-Visions-Humanitys-Future-ebook/dp/B007HQH67U] • Business Adventures: Twelve Classic Tales from the World of Wall Street: https://www.amazon.com/Business-Adventures-Twelve-Classic-Street/dp/1504000021 [https://www.amazon.com/Business-Adventures-Twelve-Classic-Street/dp/1504000021] — Production and marketing by https://penname.co/ [https://penname.co/]. For inquiries about sponsoring the podcast, email podcast@lennyrachitsky.com [podcast@lennyrachitsky.com]. — Lenny may be an investor in the companies discussed. Get full access to Lenny's Newsletter at www.lennysnewsletter.com/subscribe [https://www.lennysnewsletter.com/subscribe?utm_medium=podcast&utm_campaign=CTA_4]

Jackson Shuttleworth is a Group PM at Duolingo, where he leads the retention team and the powerful streak feature. The streak feature, which gamifies consecutive days of learning, has been Duolingo’s most important and innovative growth lever and a key driver of their growth to a $14 billion business with almost 600 million users. In our conversation, we dive deep into the history and lessons of this feature: • The evolution of the streak feature • Biggest insights from over 600 streak-related experiments • Biggest specific wins and misses along the way • Key principles for building effective streak mechanics • How to operate a high-velocity product team • Tips for building engaging notification systems • Much more — Brought to you by: • Pendo [https://www.pendo.io/lenny]—The only all-in-one product experience platform for any type of application • Vanta [https://vanta.com/lenny]—Automate compliance. Simplify security • Coda [https://coda.io/lenny]—The all-in-one collaborative workspace — Find the transcript at: https://www.lennysnewsletter.com/p/behind-the-product-duolingo-streaks [https://www.lennysnewsletter.com/p/behind-the-product-duolingo-streaks] — Where to find Jackson Shuttleworth:• LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/jackson-shuttleworth/ [https://www.linkedin.com/in/jackson-shuttleworth/] — Where to find Lenny: • Newsletter: https://www.lennysnewsletter.com [https://www.lennysnewsletter.com] • X: https://twitter.com/lennysan [https://twitter.com/lennysan] • LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/lennyrachitsky/ [https://www.linkedin.com/in/lennyrachitsky/] — In this episode, we cover: (00:00) Jackson’s background and an overview of Duolingo’s streak feature (06:00) The impact of streaks on Duolingo’s success (09:58) The origin and evolution of streaks (14:50) Key experiments and insights (24:38) User psychology and engagement strategies (28:36) Duolingo’s product review structure (33:07) Designing for clarity and adaptability (46:59) Developing the Streak Freeze feature (50:47) Balancing monetization and retention (54:08) Notification strategies (58:15) The Perfect Streak feature (01:00:40) Enhancing the user experience  (01:04:47) Team operations and experimentation (01:18:57) Who can benefit from streaks (01:21:00) Lightning round — Referenced: • Duolingo streaks: https://duolingo.fandom.com/wiki/Streak [https://duolingo.fandom.com/wiki/Streak] • How to make learning as addictive as social media: https://www.ted.com/talks/luis_von_ahn_how_to_make_learning_as_addictive_as_social_media?subtitle=en [https://www.ted.com/talks/luis_von_ahn_how_to_make_learning_as_addictive_as_social_media?subtitle=en] • Luis von Ahn on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/luis-von-ahn-duolingo/ [https://www.linkedin.com/in/luis-von-ahn-duolingo/] • FarmVille: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/FarmVille [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/FarmVille] • Royal Match: https://www.dreamgames.com/games/royal-match [https://www.dreamgames.com/games/royal-match] • How Duolingo reignited user growth: https://www.lennysnewsletter.com/p/how-duolingo-reignited-user-growth [https://www.lennysnewsletter.com/p/how-duolingo-reignited-user-growth] • You’re on fire! Or, how we brought the streak milestone to life: https://blog.duolingo.com/streak-milestone-design-animation/ [https://blog.duolingo.com/streak-milestone-design-animation/] • Duolingo Doubles Down on Design and Animation with Acquisition of Hobbes: https://investors.duolingo.com/news-releases/news-release-details/duolingo-doubles-down-design-and-animation-acquisition-hobbes [https://investors.duolingo.com/news-releases/news-release-details/duolingo-doubles-down-design-and-animation-acquisition-hobbes] • Hobbes: https://www.hobbes.work/ [https://www.hobbes.work/] • Jira: https://www.atlassian.com/software/jira [https://www.atlassian.com/software/jira] • Atlassian: https://www.atlassian.com/ [https://www.atlassian.com/] • Bing Gordon on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/binggordon/ [https://www.linkedin.com/in/binggordon/] • Peloton: https://www.onepeloton.com/ [https://www.onepeloton.com/] • Bluey on Disney+: https://www.disneyplus.com/series/bluey/1xy9TAOQ0M3r [https://www.disneyplus.com/series/bluey/1xy9TAOQ0M3r] • Emily in Paris on Netflix: https://www.netflix.com/title/81037371 [https://www.netflix.com/title/81037371] • Multi-position ladders at Home Depot: https://www.homedepot.com/b/Building-Materials-Ladders-Multi-Position-Ladders/N-5yc1vZasew [https://www.homedepot.com/b/Building-Materials-Ladders-Multi-Position-Ladders/N-5yc1vZasew] — Recommended books: • A Guide to Midwestern Conversation: https://www.amazon.com/Guide-Midwestern-Conversation-Taylor-Phillips/dp/1984861336 [https://www.amazon.com/Guide-Midwestern-Conversation-Taylor-Phillips/dp/1984861336] • Fate Is the Hunter: A Pilot’s Memoir: https://www.amazon.com/Fate-Hunter-Ernest-K-Gann/dp/0671636030 [https://www.amazon.com/Fate-Hunter-Ernest-K-Gann/dp/0671636030/r] — Production and marketing by https://penname.co/ [https://penname.co/]. For inquiries about sponsoring the podcast, email podcast@lennyrachitsky.com [podcast@lennyrachitsky.com]. — Lenny may be an investor in the companies discussed. Get full access to Lenny's Newsletter at www.lennysnewsletter.com/subscribe [https://www.lennysnewsletter.com/subscribe?utm_medium=podcast&utm_campaign=CTA_4]

Seth Godin is a legend. He’s a marketer, teacher, entrepreneur, and author of more than 20 books, including Purple Cow, Permission Marketing, and Linchpin. He also writes one of the most popular and longest-running blogs in the world (approaching publishing 10,000 in a row!) and continues to shape how we think about marketing, brand, product, and creating lasting change in the world. In our conversation, we discuss: • How to build remarkable products that spread • The four critical strategic choices that determine your future • How to develop good taste and high standards • The role of tension in great strategy • How Seth used Claude to write his newest book • Much more — Brought to you by: • DX [https://getdx.com/lenny]—A platform for measuring and improving developer productivity • Vanta [https://vanta.com/lenny]—Automate compliance. Simplify security • Paragon [https://www.useparagon.com/lenny]—Ship every SaaS integration your customers want — Find the transcript at: https://www.lennysnewsletter.com/p/seth-godins-tactics-for-building-remarkable-products [https://www.lennysnewsletter.com/p/seth-godins-tactics-for-building-remarkable-products] — Where to find Seth Godin: • Blog: http://seths.blog/ [http://seths.blog/] • LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/sethgodin [https://www.linkedin.com/in/sethgodin] • Website: https://www.sethgodin.com [https://www.sethgodin.com] — Where to find Lenny: • Newsletter: https://www.lennysnewsletter.com [https://www.lennysnewsletter.com] • X: https://twitter.com/lennysan [https://twitter.com/lennysan] • LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/lennyrachitsky/ [https://www.linkedin.com/in/lennyrachitsky/] — In this episode, we cover: (00:00) Seth’s background (05:17) Understanding good taste and upholding high standards (08:09) Become the best at whatever you do (09:48) Seth’s journey as a product manager (14:09) What people often get wrong when building products (16:00) Building a brand in the age of AI (19:04) Using AI to enhance writing (22:40) Four critical elements for an effective strategy (27:38) The role of tension in strategy (29:15) The concept of the purple cow (33:11) "Safe is risky" (34:56) The power of systems (37:07) Better waves make better surfers (38:10) Rebranding vs. re-logoing (43:07) Empathetic leadership (44:14) Conclusion and farewell — Referenced: • Seth Godin on the Tim Ferriss Show: https://tim.blog/2024/03/20/seth-godin-3/ [https://tim.blog/2024/03/20/seth-godin-3/] • Persuasive communication and managing up | Wes Kao (Maven, Seth Godin, Section4): https://www.lennysnewsletter.com/p/persuasive-communication-wes-kao [https://www.lennysnewsletter.com/p/persuasive-communication-wes-kao] • Spinnaker: https://spinnaker.io [https://spinnaker.io] • Ray Bradbury: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ray_Bradbury [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ray_Bradbury] • Arthur C. Clarke: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arthur_C._Clarke [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arthur_C._Clarke] • Isaac Asimov: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Isaac_Asimov [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Isaac_Asimov] • Roger Zelazny: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roger_Zelazny [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roger_Zelazny] • Herbie Hancock: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Herbie_Hancock [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Herbie_Hancock] • Fahrenheit 451 (game): https://www.filfre.net/2013/09/fahrenheit-451-the-game/ [https://www.filfre.net/2013/09/fahrenheit-451-the-game/] • RTFM: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/RTFM# [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/RTFM#] • Intercom: https://www.intercom.com [https://www.intercom.com] • Claude: https://claude.ai [https://claude.ai] • ChatGPT: https://chatgpt.com [https://chatgpt.com] • Anthropic: https://www.anthropic.com [https://www.anthropic.com] • Steam: https://store.steampowered.com [https://store.steampowered.com] • P.F. Flyers: https://pfflyers.com [https://pfflyers.com] • Steve Blank’s website: https://steveblank.com [https://steveblank.com] • Marissa Mayer on X: https://x.com/marissamayer [https://x.com/marissamayer] • Jaguar unveils new logo ahead of electric relaunch: https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/cgr0pw00n7qo [https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/cgr0pw00n7qo] • IHOP Becomes IHOb, the International House of ... Burgers: https://www.npr.org/2018/06/11/618844977/ihop-becomes-ihob-the-international-house-of-burgers [https://www.npr.org/2018/06/11/618844977/ihop-becomes-ihob-the-international-house-of-burgers] • Oreo’s Super Bowl Power-Outage Tweet Was 18 Months in the Making: https://www.businessinsider.com/oreos-super-bowl-power-outage-tweet-was-18-months-in-the-making-2013-3 [https://www.businessinsider.com/oreos-super-bowl-power-outage-tweet-was-18-months-in-the-making-2013-3] • Tesla’s New ‘Ludicrous Mode’ Makes the Model S a Supercar: https://www.wired.com/2015/07/teslas-new-ludicrous-mode-makes-model-s-supercar [https://www.wired.com/2015/07/teslas-new-ludicrous-mode-makes-model-s-supercar] — Recommended books: • This Is Strategy: Make Better Plans (Create a Strategy to Elevate Your Career, Community & Life): https://www.amazon.com/This-Strategy-Better-Elevate-Community/dp/B0D47T8S7N [https://www.amazon.com/This-Strategy-Better-Elevate-Community/dp/B0D47T8S7N]• Purple Cow: Transform Your Business by Being Remarkable: https://www.amazon.com/Purple-Cow-New-Transform-Remarkable/dp/1591843170 [https://www.amazon.com/Purple-Cow-New-Transform-Remarkable/dp/1591843170] — Production and marketing by https://penname.co/ [https://penname.co/]. For inquiries about sponsoring the podcast, email podcast@lennyrachitsky.com [podcast@lennyrachitsky.com]. — Lenny may be an investor in the companies discussed. Get full access to Lenny's Newsletter at www.lennysnewsletter.com/subscribe [https://www.lennysnewsletter.com/subscribe?utm_medium=podcast&utm_campaign=CTA_4]

Jonathan Lowenhar is the co-founder of Enjoy The Work, an executive coaching firm that helps founders become great CEOs. Over the past decade, Enjoy The Work has supported over 165 founders on their journey to becoming better leaders. In our conversation, we discuss: • The difference between being a founder and being a CEO • Common failure modes for startup CEOs and how to avoid them • The four key elements of an effective go-to-market strategy • A framework for evaluating potential acquisitions: the magic box paradigm • How to find and hire the best people • How to build a repeatable GTM machine • Why founders need to trust their intuition • Much more — Brought to you by: • Pendo [https://www.pendo.io/lenny]—The only all-in-one product experience platform for any type of application • OneSchema [https://oneschema.co/lenny]—Import CSV data 10x faster • Vanta [https://vanta.com/lenny]—Automate compliance. Simplify security — Find the transcript at: https://www.lennysnewsletter.com/p/how-a-great-founder-becomes-a-great-ceo-jonathan-lowenhar [https://www.lennysnewsletter.com/p/how-a-great-founder-becomes-a-great-ceo-jonathan-lowenhar] — Where to find Jonathan Lowenhar: • X: https://x.com/jlowenhar [https://x.com/jlowenhar] • LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/jlowenhar/ [https://www.linkedin.com/in/jlowenhar/] • Enjoy the Work: https://etw.live/lenny [https://etw.live/lenny] — Where to find Lenny: • Newsletter: https://www.lennysnewsletter.com [https://www.lennysnewsletter.com] • X: https://twitter.com/lennysan [https://twitter.com/lennysan] • LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/lennyrachitsky/ [https://www.linkedin.com/in/lennyrachitsky/] — In this episode, we cover: (00:00) Jonathan’s background (02:56) Understanding the rhythm of well-run companies (09:20) The founder mode vs. manager mode debate (12:05) Common company failure modes (13:36) Common CEO failure modes (25:25) The magic box paradigm for selling your startup (43:07) Advice for founders on building relationships (49:28) Hiring and building an amazing team (57:11) Types of executives: architect, optimizer, scaler (59:45) Working backward in hiring (01:02:54) Four key components of a go-to-market strategy (01:15:01) Trusting founder intuition (01:19:12) Founder vs. CEO: different roles, different skills (01:20:52) Closing thoughts and lightning round — Referenced: • Founder mode memes: https://techcrunch.com/2024/09/04/those-founder-mode-memes-keep-coming/ [https://techcrunch.com/2024/09/04/those-founder-mode-memes-keep-coming/] • Founder mode: https://paulgraham.com/foundermode.html [https://paulgraham.com/foundermode.html] • “Founder Mode” Is a Dangerous Red Herring: https://enjoythework.com/founder-mode-is-a-dangerous-red-herring/ [https://enjoythework.com/founder-mode-is-a-dangerous-red-herring/] • Magic Box Paradigm: A Framework for Startup Acquisitions: https://www.amazon.com/Magic-Box-Paradigm-Framework-Acquisitions/dp/0692778047 [https://www.amazon.com/Magic-Box-Paradigm-Framework-Acquisitions/dp/0692778047] • Facebook Buys Instagram for $1 Billion: https://archive.nytimes.com/dealbook.nytimes.com/2012/04/09/facebook-buys-instagram-for-1-billion/ [https://archive.nytimes.com/dealbook.nytimes.com/2012/04/09/facebook-buys-instagram-for-1-billion/] • Chris Voss on X: https://x.com/fbinegotiator [https://x.com/fbinegotiator] • Who: https://www.amazon.com/Who-Geoff-Smart/dp/0345504194 [https://www.amazon.com/Who-Geoff-Smart/dp/0345504194] • Brian Chesky on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/brianchesky/ [https://www.linkedin.com/in/brianchesky/] • Joe Gebbia on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/jgebbia/ [https://www.linkedin.com/in/jgebbia/] • Nathan Blecharczyk on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/blecharczyk/ [https://www.linkedin.com/in/blecharczyk/] • 4 questions Shreyas Doshi wishes he’d asked himself sooner | Former PM leader at Stripe, Twitter, Google: https://www.lennysnewsletter.com/p/shreyas-doshi-live [https://www.lennysnewsletter.com/p/shreyas-doshi-live] • Traction: How Any Startup Can Achieve Explosive Customer Growth: https://www.amazon.com/Traction-Startup-Achieve-Explosive-Customer/dp/1591848369 [https://www.amazon.com/Traction-Startup-Achieve-Explosive-Customer/dp/1591848369] • Adam Grant on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/adammgrant/ [https://www.linkedin.com/in/adammgrant/] • This will make you a better decision maker | Annie Duke (author of “Thinking in Bets” and “Quit,” former pro poker player): https://www.lennysnewsletter.com/p/making-better-decisions-annie-duke [https://www.lennysnewsletter.com/p/making-better-decisions-annie-duke] • How to identify your ideal customer profile (ICP): https://www.lennysnewsletter.com/p/how-to-identify-your-ideal-customer [https://www.lennysnewsletter.com/p/how-to-identify-your-ideal-customer] • How to get your marketing team to drive more impact: https://www.lennysnewsletter.com/p/how-to-get-your-marketing-team-to [https://www.lennysnewsletter.com/p/how-to-get-your-marketing-team-to] • The Five Dysfunctions of a Team: A Leadership Fable: https://www.amazon.com/Five-Dysfunctions-Team-Leadership-Fable/dp/0787960756 [https://www.amazon.com/Five-Dysfunctions-Team-Leadership-Fable/dp/0787960756] • The Untethered Soul: The Journey Beyond Yourself: https://www.amazon.com/Untethered-Soul-Journey-Beyond-Yourself/dp/1572245379 [https://www.amazon.com/Untethered-Soul-Journey-Beyond-Yourself/dp/1572245379] • Will & Harper on Netflix: https://www.netflix.com/title/81760197 [https://www.netflix.com/title/81760197] • Slow Horses on AppleTV+: https://tv.apple.com/us/show/slow-horses/umc.cmc.2szz3fdt71tl1ulnbp8utgq5o [https://tv.apple.com/us/show/slow-horses/umc.cmc.2szz3fdt71tl1ulnbp8utgq5o] • Aura frames: https://auraframes.com/ [https://auraframes.com/] • Augie studio: https://augie.studio/ [https://augie.studio/] • Harrah’s Entertainment: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Harrah%27s_Entertainment [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Harrah%27s_Entertainment] — Production and marketing by https://penname.co/ [https://penname.co/]. For inquiries about sponsoring the podcast, email podcast@lennyrachitsky.com [podcast@lennyrachitsky.com]. — Lenny may be an investor in the companies discussed. Get full access to Lenny's Newsletter at www.lennysnewsletter.com/subscribe [https://www.lennysnewsletter.com/subscribe?utm_medium=podcast&utm_campaign=CTA_4]

Michael Margolis has been a UX research partner at Google Ventures (GV) for nearly 15 years. He has developed a unique approach to helping startups identify their “bullseye customer”—the specific subset of their target market who initially is most likely to adopt their product. Michael has conducted over 300 hands-on research sprints with GV portfolio companies across various industries and helped develop the “design sprint” process made famous by the book Sprint. In our conversation, we discuss: • The step-by-step process of running a bullseye customer sprint • The most common mistakes founders make when picking their first customers • Practical tips for conducting effective customer interviews • How to create simple but effective prototypes for user research • The power of “watch parties” in aligning teams around customer insights • How to apply these methods beyond typical tech startups — Brought to you by: • Eppo [https://www.geteppo.com/]—Run reliable, impactful experiments • Paragon [https://www.useparagon.com/lenny]—Ship every SaaS integration your customers want • Enterpret [https://enterpret.com/lenny]—Transform customer feedback into product growth — Find the transcript at: https://www.lennysnewsletter.com/p/finding-your-bullseye-customer-michael-margolis [https://www.lennysnewsletter.com/p/finding-your-bullseye-customer-michael-margolis] — Where to find Michael Margolis: • X: https://x.com/mmargolis [https://x.com/mmargolis] • LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/mmargolis/ [https://www.linkedin.com/in/mmargolis/] • Website: https://www.learnmorefaster.com/ [https://www.learnmorefaster.com/] • Medium: https://medium.com/@mmargolis [https://medium.com/@mmargolis] — Where to find Lenny: • Newsletter: https://www.lennysnewsletter.com [https://www.lennysnewsletter.com] • X: https://twitter.com/lennysan [https://twitter.com/lennysan] • LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/lennyrachitsky/ [https://www.linkedin.com/in/lennyrachitsky/] — In this episode, we cover: (00:00) Michael’s background (09:11) Bullseye customers vs. ideal customer profiles (ICPs) (12:32) An overview of the bullseye customer sprint (20:56) When to use the bullseye customer sprint (22:19) Step one: Agree on goals and key questions (23:48) Step two: Define your bullseye customer (25:52) The importance of a narrow target audience (29:00) An example of step two in action (38:24) Narrowing attributes and exclusion criteria (43:28) Step three: Recruiting and compensating participants (56:11) Step four: Creating effective prototypes (01:01:10) Step five: Drafting your interview guide (01:08:49) Step six: The watch party method (01:19:40) Common pitfalls and final thoughts (01:24:43) Closing thoughts and where to find Michael — Referenced: • Learn More Faster: How to Find Your Bullseye Customer and Their Perfect Product: https://www.learnmorefaster.com [https://www.learnmorefaster.com] • Alcoa: https://www.alcoa.com [https://www.alcoa.com] • Dupont: https://www.dupont.com [https://www.dupont.com] • Ericsson: https://www.ericsson.com [https://www.ericsson.com] • Google Ventures: https://www.gv.com/ [https://www.gv.com/] • Kate Aronowitz on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/katearonowitz/ [https://www.linkedin.com/in/katearonowitz/] • Vanessa Cho on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/veecho/ [https://www.linkedin.com/in/veecho/] • How to kickstart and scale a consumer business—Step 2: Identify your super-specific who: https://www.lennysnewsletter.com/p/consumer-business-super-specific-who [https://www.lennysnewsletter.com/p/consumer-business-super-specific-who] • When enough is enough | Andy Johns (ex-FB, Twitter, Quora): https://www.lennysnewsletter.com/p/when-enough-is-enough-andy-johns [https://www.lennysnewsletter.com/p/when-enough-is-enough-andy-johns] • Zipline for health care: https://www.flyzipline.com/solutions/healthcare [https://www.flyzipline.com/solutions/healthcare] • Jobs to Be Done framework: https://www.christenseninstitute.org/theory/jobs-to-be-done [https://www.christenseninstitute.org/theory/jobs-to-be-done] • User Interviews: https://www.userinterviews.com/ [https://www.userinterviews.com/] • Respondent: https://www.respondent.io/ [https://www.respondent.io/] • Flatiron Health: https://flatiron.com/ [https://flatiron.com/] • How to identify your ideal customer profile (ICP): https://www.lennysnewsletter.com/p/how-to-identify-your-ideal-customer [https://www.lennysnewsletter.com/p/how-to-identify-your-ideal-customer] • Gong: https://www.gong.io [https://www.gong.io] • Linear: https://linear.app [https://linear.app] • Gusto: https://gusto.com/ [https://gusto.com/] • Humble Inquiry: The Gentle Art of Asking Instead of Telling: https://bookshop.org/p/books/humble-inquiry-second-edition-the-gentle-art-of-asking-instead-of-telling-edgar-h-schein/14739375 [https://bookshop.org/p/books/humble-inquiry-second-edition-the-gentle-art-of-asking-instead-of-telling-edgar-h-schein/14739375] • Figma: https://www.figma.com [https://www.figma.com] — Production and marketing by https://penname.co/ [https://penname.co/]. For inquiries about sponsoring the podcast, email podcast@lennyrachitsky.com [podcast@lennyrachitsky.com]. — Lenny may be an investor in the companies discussed. Get full access to Lenny's Newsletter at www.lennysnewsletter.com/subscribe [https://www.lennysnewsletter.com/subscribe?utm_medium=podcast&utm_campaign=CTA_4]