Lenny's Podcast: Product | Career | Growth

Dylan Field is co-founder and CEO of Figma, a beloved tool used by every modern product team. Founded in 2012, Figma has expanded from a single design tool to a comprehensive platform including FigJam, Slides, Dev Mode, and, most recently, Figma Make. After a $20 billion acquisition by Adobe fell through due to regulatory pushback, Dylan led the company to a successful IPO in 2025. What you’ll learn: • How Dylan kept internal morale up after the Adobe acquisition fell through • His approach to maintaining pace and a sense of urgency 13 years in • How to systematically develop taste • How Figma decides which product lines to add • Why Dylan obsesses over “time to value” • How AI is making design more valuable — Brought to you by: Stripe [https://stripe.com/]—Helping companies of all sizes grow revenue — Transcript: ⁠ [https://www.lennysnewsletter.com/p/why-ai-makes-design-craft-and-quality-the-new-moat]https://www.lennysnewsletter.com/p/why-ai-makes-design-craft-and-quality-the-new-moat⁠ [https://www.lennysnewsletter.com/p/why-ai-makes-design-craft-and-quality-the-new-moat] — My biggest takeaways (for paid newsletter subscribers): ⁠ [https://www.lennysnewsletter.com/i/175569466/my-biggest-takeaways-from-this-conversation]https://www.lennysnewsletter.com/i/175569466/my-biggest-takeaways-from-this-conversation⁠ [https://www.lennysnewsletter.com/p/why-ai-makes-design-craft-and-quality-the-new-moat] — Where to find Dylan Field: • X: https://x.com/zoink [https://x.com/zoink] • LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/dylanfield/ [https://www.linkedin.com/in/dylanfield/] — Where to find Lenny: • Newsletter: https://www.lennysnewsletter.com [https://www.lennysnewsletter.com] • X: https://twitter.com/lennysan [https://twitter.com/lennysan] • LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/lennyrachitsky/ [https://www.linkedin.com/in/lennyrachitsky/] — In this episode, we cover: (00:00) Introduction to Dylan Field (03:58) The Adobe deal fallout (05:50) Maintaining team morale post-deal (09:13) Strategies for sustaining high performance (13:37) Maintaining Figma’s unique company culture (16:22) Dylan’s leadership evolution (21:03) How to improve clarity as a leader (24:40) The controversy behind FigJam (31:06) Lessons from expanding Figma’s core product line (39:32) Time-to-value (45:14) Introduction to Figma Make (48:26) AI app prototyping and the future of Figma Make (53:38) Lessons from Figma’s AI product launch (57:47) The importance of craft (59:54) Developing good taste (01:05:35) The future of product development (01:10:32) Why AI won’t steal your job (01:14:37) AI corner (01:18:32) Lightning round and final thoughts — Referenced: • Dylan Field live at Config: Intuition, simplicity, and the future of design: https://www.lennysnewsletter.com/p/dylan-field-live-at-config [https://www.lennysnewsletter.com/p/dylan-field-live-at-config] • Figma: https://www.figma.com/ [https://www.figma.com/] • Adobe: https://www.adobe.com/ [https://www.adobe.com/] • Vision, conviction, and hype: How to build 0 to 1 inside a company | Mihika Kapoor (Product at Figma): https://www.lennysnewsletter.com/p/vision-conviction-hype-mihika-kapoor [https://www.lennysnewsletter.com/p/vision-conviction-hype-mihika-kapoor] • Notion’s lost years, its near collapse during Covid, staying small to move fast, the joy and suffering of building horizontal, more | Ivan Zhao (CEO and co-founder): https://www.lennysnewsletter.com/p/inside-notion-ivan-zhao [https://www.lennysnewsletter.com/p/inside-notion-ivan-zhao] • $46B of hard truths from Ben Horowitz: Why founders fail and why you need to run toward fear (a16z co-founder): https://www.lennysnewsletter.com/p/46b-of-hard-truths-from-ben-horowitz [https://www.lennysnewsletter.com/p/46b-of-hard-truths-from-ben-horowitz] • FigJam: https://www.figma.com/figjam/ [https://www.figma.com/figjam/] • Cursor chat: https://help.figma.com/hc/en-us/articles/4403130802199-Use-cursor-chat-in-Figma-Design [https://help.figma.com/hc/en-us/articles/4403130802199-Use-cursor-chat-in-Figma-Design] • Figma Slides: https://www.figma.com/slides/ [https://www.figma.com/slides/] • Figma Sites: https://www.figma.com/sites/ [https://www.figma.com/sites/] • Figma Buzz: https://www.figma.com/buzz/ [https://www.figma.com/buzz/] • Figma Draw: https://www.figma.com/draw/ [https://www.figma.com/draw/] • Figma Design: https://www.figma.com/design/ [https://www.figma.com/design/] • Dev Mode: https://www.figma.com/dev-mode/ [https://www.figma.com/dev-mode/] • Figma Make: https://www.figma.com/make/ [https://www.figma.com/make/] • Zach Lloyd on X: https://x.com/zachlloydtweets [https://x.com/zachlloydtweets] • Warp: https://www.warp.dev/ [https://www.warp.dev/] • Dylan’s post on X about Figma on an AI product leaderboard: https://x.com/zoink/status/1968588014935801884 [https://x.com/zoink/status/1968588014935801884] • Kurt Cobain: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kurt_Cobain [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kurt_Cobain] • Damien Correll on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/damiencorrell/ [https://www.linkedin.com/in/damiencorrell/] • Marcin Wichary on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/mwichary/ [https://www.linkedin.com/in/mwichary/] • Loredana Crisan on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/loredanacrisan/ [https://www.linkedin.com/in/loredanacrisan/] • Amber Bravo on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/amberbravo/ [https://www.linkedin.com/in/amberbravo/] • Figma’s 2025 AI report: Perspectives from designers and developers: https://www.figma.com/blog/figma-2025-ai-report-perspectives/ [https://www.figma.com/blog/figma-2025-ai-report-perspectives/] • Jevons paradox: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jevons_paradox#Energy_conservation_policy [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jevons_paradox#Energy_conservation_policy] • AI prompt engineering in 2025: What works and what doesn’t | Sander Schulhoff (Learn Prompting, HackAPrompt): https://www.lennysnewsletter.com/p/ai-prompt-engineering-in-2025-sander-schulhoff [https://www.lennysnewsletter.com/p/ai-prompt-engineering-in-2025-sander-schulhoff] • Pantheon: https://www.imdb.com/title/tt11680642/ [https://www.imdb.com/title/tt11680642/] • Retro: https://retro.app/ [https://retro.app/'] • Thiel Fellowship: https://thielfellowship.org/ [https://thielfellowship.org/] — Recommended books: • Understanding Comics: The Invisible Art: https://www.amazon.com/Understanding-Comics-Invisible-Scott-McCloud/dp/006097625X [https://www.amazon.com/Understanding-Comics-Invisible-Scott-McCloud/dp/006097625X] • The Spy and the Traitor: The Greatest Espionage Story of the Cold War: https://www.amazon.com/Spy-Traitor-Greatest-Espionage-Story/dp/1101904216 [https://www.amazon.com/Spy-Traitor-Greatest-Espionage-Story/dp/1101904216] • Codex Seraphinianus: https://www.amazon.com/Codex-Seraphinianus-Anniversary-Luigi-Serafini/dp/0847871045 [https://www.amazon.com/Codex-Seraphinianus-Anniversary-Luigi-Serafini/dp/0847871045] Production and marketing by https://penname.co/ [https://penname.co/]. For inquiries about sponsoring the podcast, email podcast@lennyrachitsky.com [podcast@lennyrachitsky.com]. — Lenny may be an investor in the companies discussed. My biggest takeaways from this conversation: To hear more, visit www.lennysnewsletter.com [https://www.lennysnewsletter.com?utm_medium=podcast&utm_campaign=show-notes-no-free-preview-language]

Robby Stein is VP of Product at Google, where he oversees the core products of Google Search—including the new AI Overviews, AI Mode, search ranking, Google Lens, and more. Previously, he led consumer products at Instagram, where he and his teams built Stories, Reels, Close Friends, and other key features now used by billions. — What you’ll learn: Why Google’s AI products are suddenly taking off after years of perceived stagnation  How AI is expanding Search rather than replacing it, contrary to what many predicted  The three core product principles that have helped Robby build multiple billion-user products  Inside Instagram’s decision to build its own version of Snapchat Stories  His mantra of “relentless improvement”  How Google developed AI Mode from concept to launch in just one year  Why most teams give up too early on potentially transformative products  — Brought to you by: Vanta [https://vanta.com/lenny]—Automate compliance. Simplify security: https://vanta.com/lenny [https://vanta.com/lenny] Jira Product Discovery [https://atlassian.com/lenny/?utm_source=lennypodcast&utm_medium=paid-audio&utm_campaign=fy24q1-jpd-imc]—Confidence to build the right thing: https://atlassian.com/lenny/?utm_source=lennypodcast&utm_medium=paid-audio&utm_campaign=fy24q1-jpd-imc [https://atlassian.com/lenny/?utm_source=lennypodcast&utm_medium=paid-audio&utm_campaign=fy24q1-jpd-imc] Orkes [https://www.orkes.io/]—The enterprise platform for reliable applications and agentic workflows: https://www.orkes.io/ [https://www.orkes.io/] — Transcript: https://www.lennysnewsletter.com/p/how-google-built-ai-mode-in-under-a-year [https://www.lennysnewsletter.com/p/how-google-built-ai-mode-in-under-a-year] — My biggest takeaways (for paid newsletter subscribers): ⁠ [https://www.lennysnewsletter.com/i/175041217/my-biggest-takeaways-from-this-conversation]https://www.lennysnewsletter.com/i/175041217/my-biggest-takeaways-from-this-conversation⁠ [https://www.lennysnewsletter.com/i/175041217/my-biggest-takeaways-from-this-conversation⁠] — Where to find Robby Stein: • X: https://x.com/rmstein [https://x.com/rmstein] • LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/robbystein/ [https://www.linkedin.com/in/robbystein/] — Referenced: • Google Gemini: https://gemini.google.com/app [https://gemini.google.com/app] • Nano Banana: https://aistudio.google.com/models/gemini-2-5-flash-image [https://aistudio.google.com/models/gemini-2-5-flash-image] • Chat GPT: https://chatgpt.com/ [https://chatgpt.com/] • Perplexity: https://www.perplexity.ai/ [https://www.perplexity.ai/] • Google Lens: https://lens.google/ [https://lens.google/] • AI Google search: https://www.google.com/ai [https://www.google.com/ai] • Why ChatGPT will be the next big growth channel (and how to capitalize on it) | Brian Balfour (Reforge): https://www.lennysnewsletter.com/p/why-chatgpt-will-be-the-next-big-growth-channel-brian-balfour [https://www.lennysnewsletter.com/p/why-chatgpt-will-be-the-next-big-growth-channel-brian-balfour] • Alex Rampell on X: https://x.com/arampell [https://x.com/arampell] • A 4-step framework for building delightful products | Nesrine Changuel (Spotify, Google, Skype): https://www.lennysnewsletter.com/p/a-4-step-framework-for-building-delightful-products [https://www.lennysnewsletter.com/p/a-4-step-framework-for-building-delightful-products] • Look broader, look closer, think younger: Tony Fadell speaks at TED2015: https://blog.ted.com/look-broader-look-closer-think-younger-tony-fadell-speaks-at-ted2015/ [https://blog.ted.com/look-broader-look-closer-think-younger-tony-fadell-speaks-at-ted2015/] • Jobs to Be Done: https://www.christenseninstitute.org/theory/jobs-to-be-done/ [https://www.christenseninstitute.org/theory/jobs-to-be-done/] • The ultimate guide to JTBD | Bob Moesta (co-creator of the framework): https://www.lennysnewsletter.com/p/the-ultimate-guide-to-jtbd-bob-moesta [https://www.lennysnewsletter.com/p/the-ultimate-guide-to-jtbd-bob-moesta] • Rinstagram or Finstagram? The curious duality of the modern Instagram user: https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2016/sep/26/rinstagram-finstagram-instagram-accounts [https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2016/sep/26/rinstagram-finstagram-instagram-accounts] • V03: https://v03ai.com/ [https://v03ai.com/] • Pirate GPT: https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/silentmeditation/pirate-gpt/ [https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/silentmeditation/pirate-gpt/] • The Bear on Hulu: https://www.hulu.com/series/the-bear-05eb6a8e-90ed-4947-8c0b-e6536cbddd5f [https://www.hulu.com/series/the-bear-05eb6a8e-90ed-4947-8c0b-e6536cbddd5f] • Dune on HBO Max: https://www.hbomax.com/movies/dune/e7dc7b3a-a494-4ef1-8107-f4308aa6bbf7 [https://www.hbomax.com/movies/dune/e7dc7b3a-a494-4ef1-8107-f4308aa6bbf7] • Top Gun: Maverick: https://www.imdb.com/title/tt1745960/ [https://www.imdb.com/title/tt1745960/] • Purple pillows: https://purple.com/pillows [https://purple.com/pillows] • Avocado pillow: https://www.avocadogreenmattress.com/products/green-pillow [https://www.avocadogreenmattress.com/products/green-pillow] • Justin Bieber’s website: https://www.justinbiebermusic.com/ [https://www.justinbiebermusic.com/] • Scooter Braun’s website: https://scooterbraun.com/ [https://scooterbraun.com/] — Recommended books: • Competing Against Luck: The Story of Innovation and Customer Choice: https://www.amazon.com/Competing-Against-Luck-Innovation-Customer/dp/0062435612 [https://www.amazon.com/Competing-Against-Luck-Innovation-Customer/dp/0062435612] • The Design of Everyday Things: https://www.amazon.com/Design-Everyday-Things-Revised-Expanded/dp/0465050654 [https://www.amazon.com/Design-Everyday-Things-Revised-Expanded/dp/0465050654] • Aurora: https://www.amazon.com/Aurora-High-Stakes-Survival-Navigate-Darkness/dp/0062916475 [https://www.amazon.com/Aurora-High-Stakes-Survival-Navigate-Darkness/dp/0062916475] • Project Hail Mary: https://www.amazon.com/Project-Hail-Mary-Andy-Weir/dp/0593135202 [https://www.amazon.com/Project-Hail-Mary-Andy-Weir/dp/0593135202] — Production and marketing by https://penname.co/ [https://penname.co/]. For inquiries about sponsoring the podcast, email podcast@lennyrachitsky.com [http://podcast@lennyrachitsky.com]. — Lenny may be an investor in the companies discussed. To hear more, visit www.lennysnewsletter.com [https://www.lennysnewsletter.com?utm_medium=podcast&utm_campaign=show-notes-no-free-preview-language]

Jason Droege is the CEO of Scale AI, a company that provides foundational training data to every major AI lab. He previously co-founded Scour with Travis Kalanick and built Uber Eats from idea to $20 billion in revenue. In this conversation, Jason shares lessons from getting sued for $250 billion, discovering restaurant economics by weighing sandwich ingredients, and over 25 years of launching transformative technology businesses. What you’ll learn: What actually happened with Meta’s $14 billion investment in Scale AI Why AI models still need human experts to improve, and how that relationship is evolving How AI models learn from experts building websites and debugging code The business lessons from building Uber Eats from zero to $20 billion Why most enterprise data is useless for AI models today Why urgent daily problems beat super-valuable occasional problems when building products How to think independently when building new products and businesses — Brought to you by: Merge [http://merge.dev/lenny]—The fastest way to ship 220+ integrations: http://merge.dev/lenny [http://merge.dev/lenny] Figma Make [https://www.figma.com/lenny/]—A prompt-to-code tool for making ideas real: https://www.figma.com/lenny/ [http://merge.dev/lenny] Mercury [https://mercury.com/]—The art of simplified finances: https://mercury.com/ [http://merge.dev/lenny] — Transcript: https://www.lennysnewsletter.com/p/first-interview-with-scale-ais-ceo-jason-droege [http://merge.dev/lenny] — My biggest takeaways (for paid newsletter subscribers): https://www.lennysnewsletter.com/i/174979621/my-biggest-takeaways-from-this-conversation [https://www.lennysnewsletter.com/i/174979621/my-biggest-takeaways-from-this-conversation] — Where to find Jason Droege: • X: https://x.com/jdroege [http://merge.dev/lenny] • LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/jasondroege/ [http://merge.dev/lenny] — Where to find Lenny: • Newsletter: https://www.lennysnewsletter.com [http://merge.dev/lenny] • X: https://twitter.com/lennysan [http://merge.dev/lenny] • LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/lennyrachitsky/ [http://merge.dev/lenny] — In this episode, we cover: (00:00) Introduction to Jason Droege (06:01) Jason’s early career and lessons learned (10:27) The current state of Scale AI (12:37) The shift to expert data labeling (17:02) Challenges and strategies in finding experts (18:48) Reinforcement learning and AI environments (28:18) The future of AI and human involvement (31:21) The role of evals (35:25) What AI models will look like in the next few years (41:43) Building Uber Eats and understanding customer needs (48:19) The importance of independent thinking (50:45) Setting high standards for new businesses (53:03) Exploring and selecting business ideas (57:07) The McDonald’s story (01:00:13) The role of gross margins in business feasibility (01:04:49) Why Jason says, “Not losing is a precursor to winning” (01:09:12) Hiring and building teams (01:12:11) AI corner (01:14:47) Lightning round and final thoughts — Referenced: • Travis Kalanick on X: https://x.com/travisk [http://merge.dev/lenny] • Scour: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scour_Inc [http://merge.dev/lenny]. • Scale: https://scale.com/ [http://merge.dev/lenny] • Alexandr Wang on X: https://x.com/alexandr_wang [http://merge.dev/lenny] • Why experts writing AI evals is creating the fastest-growing companies in history | Brendan Foody (CEO of Mercor): https://www.lennysnewsletter.com/p/experts-writing-ai-evals-brendan-foody [http://merge.dev/lenny] • Brendan Foody’s post on X about knowledge work changing: https://x.com/BrendanFoody/status/1970163503702188048 [http://merge.dev/lenny] • MIT Finds 95% of GenAI Pilots Fail Because Companies Avoid Friction: https://www.forbes.com/sites/jasonsnyder/2025/08/26/mit-finds-95-of-genai-pilots-fail-because-companies-avoid-friction/ [http://merge.dev/lenny] • Uber Eats: https://www.ubereats.com/ [http://merge.dev/lenny] • Stephen Chau on X: https://x.com/thestephenchau [http://merge.dev/lenny] • a16z Podcast: https://a16z.com/podcasts/a16z-podcast/ [http://merge.dev/lenny] • F1: The Movie: https://www.imdb.com/title/tt16311594/ [http://merge.dev/lenny] • V03: https://v03ai.com/ [http://merge.dev/lenny] • Careers at Scale: https://scale.com/careers [http://merge.dev/lenny] — Recommended books: • The Selfish Gene: https://www.amazon.com/Selfish-Gene-Anniversary-Introduction/dp/0199291152 [http://merge.dev/lenny] • The Road Less Traveled: A New Psychology of Love, Traditional Values, and Spiritual Growth: https://www.amazon.com/Road-Less-Traveled-Timeless-Traditional/dp/0743243153/ [http://merge.dev/lenny] • Good to Great: Why Some Companies Make the Leap . . . And Others Don’t: https://www.amazon.com/Good-Great-Some-Companies-Others/dp/0066620996 [http://merge.dev/lenny] • Thinking, Fast and Slow: https://www.amazon.com/Thinking-Fast-Slow-Daniel-Kahneman/dp/0374533555/ [http://merge.dev/lenny] — Production and marketing by https://penname.co/ [http://merge.dev/lenny]. For inquiries about sponsoring the podcast, email podcast@lennyrachitsky.com [http://merge.dev/lenny]. — Lenny may be an investor in the companies discussed. To hear more, visit www.lennysnewsletter.com [https://www.lennysnewsletter.com?utm_medium=podcast&utm_campaign=show-notes-no-free-preview-language]

Albert Cheng has led growth at three of the world’s most successful consumer subscription companies: Duolingo, Grammarly, and Chess.com. A former Google product manager (and serious pianist!), Albert developed a unique approach to finding and scaling growth opportunities through rapid experimentation and deep user psychology. His teams run 1,000 experiments a year, discovering counterintuitive insights that have driven tens of millions in revenue. What you’ll learn: 1. How to use the explore-exploit framework to find new growth opportunities 2. How showing premium features to free users doubled Grammarly’s upgrades to paid plans 3. What good retention looks like for a consumer subscription app 4. Why resurrected users drive 80% of mature product growth 5. Why “reverse trials” work better than time-based trials 6. The three pillars of successful gamification: core loop, metagame, and profile — Brought to you by: Vanta [https://vanta.com/lenny]—Automate compliance. Simplify security. Jira Product Discovery [https://atlassian.com/lenny/?utm_source=lennypodcast&utm_medium=paid-audio&utm_campaign=fy24q1-jpd-imc]—Confidence to build the right thing Miro [https://miro.com/lenny]—A collaborative visual platform where your best work comes to life — Where to find Albert Cheng: • X: https://x.com/albertc248 [https://x.com/albertc248] • LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/albertcheng1/ [https://www.linkedin.com/in/albertcheng1/] • Chess.com: https://www.chess.com/member/Goniners [https://www.chess.com/member/Goniners] — Where to find Lenny: • Newsletter: https://www.lennysnewsletter.com [https://www.lennysnewsletter.com] • X: https://twitter.com/lennysan [https://twitter.com/lennysan] • LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/lennyrachitsky/ [https://www.linkedin.com/in/lennyrachitsky/] — Referenced: • How Duolingo reignited user growth: https://www.lennysnewsletter.com/p/how-duolingo-reignited-user-growth [https://www.lennysnewsletter.com/p/how-duolingo-reignited-user-growth] • Inside ChatGPT: The fastest-growing product in history | Nick Turley (Head of ChatGPT at OpenAI): https://www.lennysnewsletter.com/p/inside-chatgpt-nick-turley [https://www.lennysnewsletter.com/p/inside-chatgpt-nick-turley] • Explore vs. Exploit: https://brianbalfour.com/quick-takes/explore-vs-exploit [https://brianbalfour.com/quick-takes/explore-vs-exploit] • Grammarly: https://www.grammarly.com/ [https://www.grammarly.com/] • Reforge: https://www.reforge.com/ [https://www.reforge.com/] • Chess.com: https://www.chess.com/ [https://www.chess.com/] • Everyone’s an engineer now: Inside v0’s mission to create a hundred million builders | Guillermo Rauch (founder & CEO of Vercel, creators of v0 and Next.js [http://next.js]): https://www.lennysnewsletter.com/p/everyones-an-engineer-now-guillermo-rauch [https://www.lennysnewsletter.com/p/everyones-an-engineer-now-guillermo-rauch] • Building Lovable: $10M ARR in 60 days with 15 people | Anton Osika (CEO and co-founder): https://www.lennysnewsletter.com/p/building-lovable-anton-osika [https://www.lennysnewsletter.com/p/building-lovable-anton-osika] • Figma: https://www.figma.com/ [https://www.figma.com/] • Cursor: https://cursor.com/ [https://cursor.com/] • The rise of Cursor: The $300M ARR AI tool that engineers can’t stop using | Michael Truell (co-founder and CEO): https://www.lennysnewsletter.com/p/the-rise-of-cursor-michael-truell [https://www.lennysnewsletter.com/p/the-rise-of-cursor-michael-truell] • Claude Code: https://www.anthropic.com/claude-code [https://www.anthropic.com/claude-code] • GitHub Copilot: https://github.com/features/copilot [https://github.com/features/copilot] • Noam Lovinsky on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/noaml/ [https://www.linkedin.com/in/noaml/] • The happiness and pain of product management | Noam Lovinsky (Grammarly, Facebook, YouTube, Thumbtack): https://www.lennysnewsletter.com/p/the-happiness-and-pain-of-product [https://www.lennysnewsletter.com/p/the-happiness-and-pain-of-product] • Kyla Siedband on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/kylasiedband/ [https://www.linkedin.com/in/kylasiedband/] • The Duolingo handbook: https://blog.duolingo.com/handbook/ [https://blog.duolingo.com/handbook/] • Lenny’s post on X about the Duolingo handbook: https://x.com/lennysan/status/1889008405584683091 [https://x.com/lennysan/status/1889008405584683091] • The rituals of great teams | Shishir Mehrotra of Coda, YouTube, Microsoft: https://www.lennysnewsletter.com/p/the-rituals-of-great-teams-shishir [https://www.lennysnewsletter.com/p/the-rituals-of-great-teams-shishir] • Duolingo on TikTok: https://www.tiktok.com/@duolingo [https://www.tiktok.com/@duolingo] • Kasparov vs. Deep Blue | The Match That Changed History: https://www.chess.com/article/view/deep-blue-kasparov-chess [https://www.chess.com/article/view/deep-blue-kasparov-chess] • Magnus Carlsen: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magnus_Carlsen [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magnus_Carlsen] • Elo rating system: https://www.chess.com/terms/elo-rating-chess [https://www.chess.com/terms/elo-rating-chess] • Stockfish: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stockfish_(chess) [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stockfish_(chess)] • AlphaGo on Prime Video: https://www.primevideo.com/detail/AlphaGo/0KNQHKKDAOE8OCYKQS9WSSDYN0 [https://www.primevideo.com/detail/AlphaGo/0KNQHKKDAOE8OCYKQS9WSSDYN0] • Statsig: https://www.statsig.com/ [https://www.statsig.com/] • The State of Product in 2026: Navigating Change, Challenge, and Opportunity: https://www.atlassian.com/blog/announcements/state-of-product-2026 [https://www.atlassian.com/blog/announcements/state-of-product-2026] • Erik Allebest on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/erikallebest/ [https://www.linkedin.com/in/erikallebest/] • Daniel Rensch on X: https://x.com/danielrensch [https://x.com/danielrensch] • Chariot: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chariot_(company) [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chariot_(company)] • San Francisco 49ers: https://www.49ers.com/ [https://www.49ers.com/] • Breville Barista Express: https://www.breville.com/en-us/product/bes870 [https://www.breville.com/en-us/product/bes870] — Recommended books: • Snuggle Puppy!: A Little Love Song: https://www.amazon.com/Snuggle-Puppy-Little-Boynton-Board/dp/1665924985 [https://www.amazon.com/Snuggle-Puppy-Little-Boynton-Board/dp/1665924985] • Ogilvy on Advertising: https://www.amazon.com/Ogilvy-Advertising-David/dp/039472903X [https://www.amazon.com/Ogilvy-Advertising-David/dp/039472903X] • Dark Squares: How Chess Saved My Life: https://www.amazon.com/Dark-Squares-Chess-Saved-Life/dp/1541703286 [https://www.amazon.com/Dark-Squares-Chess-Saved-Life/dp/1541703286] — Production and marketing by https://penname.co/ [https://penname.co/]. For inquiries about sponsoring the podcast, email podcast@lennyrachitsky.com [podcast@lennyrachitsky.com]. Lenny may be an investor in the companies discussed. To hear more, visit www.lennysnewsletter.com [https://www.lennysnewsletter.com?utm_medium=podcast&utm_campaign=show-notes-no-free-preview-language]

Nesrine Changuel helped build Spotify, Google Chrome, and Google Meet. Her work has helped her discover the importance of emotional connection in building successful products. At Google, she served as a dedicated “delight PM,” a role specifically focused on making products more delightful. She recently published Product Delight, a book that provides a practical framework for creating products that serve both functional and emotional needs. Based in Paris, she now coaches founders and CPOs on implementing delight strategies in their organizations. What you’ll learn: 1. Why delight is a business strategy, not just “sprinkling confetti” on top of functionality 2. How to identify emotional motivators that drive product retention 3. The 50-40-10 rule for balancing delight in your roadmap 4. The 4-step delight model 5. The origin story of Spotify’s Discover Weekly 6. Why B2B products need delight just as much as B2C products 7. How to get buy-in from skeptical leaders who think delight is a luxury — Brought to you by: DX [http://getdx.com/lenny]—The developer intelligence platform designed by leading researchers: https://getdx.com/lenny [https://getdx.com/lenny] Jira Product Discovery [https://atlassian.com/lenny/?utm_source=lennypodcast&utm_medium=paid-audio&utm_campaign=fy24q1-jpd-imc]—Confidence to build the right thing: https://atlassian.com/lenny [https://atlassian.com/lenny] LucidLink [https://www.lucidlink.com/lenny]—Real-time cloud storage for teams: https://www.lucidlink.com/lenny [https://www.lucidlink.com/lenny] — Transcript: https://www.lennysnewsletter.com/p/a-4-step-framework-for-building-delightful-products [https://www.lennysnewsletter.com/p/a-4-step-framework-for-building-delightful-products] — My biggest takeaways (for paid newsletter subscribers): https://www.lennysnewsletter.com/i/174199489/my-biggest-takeaways-from-this-conversation [https://www.lennysnewsletter.com/p/a-4-step-framework-for-building-delightful-products] — Where to find Nesrine Changuel: • LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/nesrinechanguel/ [https://www.linkedin.com/in/nesrinechanguel/] • Newsletter: https://nesrinechanguel.substack.com/ [https://nesrinechanguel.substack.com/] • Website: https://nesrine-changuel.com/ [https://nesrine-changuel.com/] — Where to find Lenny: • Newsletter: https://www.lennysnewsletter.com [https://www.lennysnewsletter.com] • X: https://twitter.com/lennysan [https://twitter.com/lennysan] • LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/lennyrachitsky/ [https://www.linkedin.com/in/lennyrachitsky/] — In this episode, we cover: (00:00) Introduction to Nesrine and product delight (04:56) Why delight matters (09:17) What makes a feature “delightful” (12:29) The three pillars of delight (13:03) Pillar 1: Removing friction (Uber refund example) (15:07) Pillar 2: Anticipating needs (Revolut eSIM example) (17:21) Pillar 3: Exceeding expectations (Edge coupon example) (18:35) The “confetti effect” and when it actually works (22:02) B2B vs. B2C: Why all products need emotional connection (29:52) The Delight Model: A 4-step framework (30:57) Step 1: Identifying user motivators (functional and emotional) (33:55) Step 2: Converting motivators into product opportunities (34:46) Step 3: Identifying solutions with the delight grid (36:46) Step 4: Validating ideas with the delight checklist (40:22) The Delight Model summarized (42:18) The importance of familiarity (Spotify Discover Weekly story) (45:21) Real examples: Chrome’s tab management solution (51:32) Google Meet’s solution for “Zoom fatigue” (55:02) Getting buy-in from skeptical leaders (59:39) Prioritizing delight: The 50-40-10 rule (1:02:41) Creating a culture of delight in your organization (1:06:45) The habituation effect (1:08:15) When delight goes wrong: Apple reactions example (1:10:21) How delight motivates product teams (1:12:24) Lightning round and final thoughts — Referenced: • Spotify: https://open.spotify.com/ [https://open.spotify.com/] • Linear: https://linear.app/ [https://linear.app/] • How Linear builds product: https://www.lennysnewsletter.com/p/how-linear-builds-product [https://www.lennysnewsletter.com/p/how-linear-builds-product] • Jira: https://www.atlassian.com/software/jira [https://www.atlassian.com/software/jira] • Asana: https://asana.com/ [https://asana.com/] • Monday: https://monday.com/ [https://monday.com/] • The Product Delight Model: https://nesrinechanguel.substack.com/p/the-product-delight-model [https://nesrinechanguel.substack.com/p/the-product-delight-model] • Revolut: https://www.revolut.com/ [https://www.revolut.com/] • How Revolut trains world-class product managers: The “local CEO” model, raw intellect over experience, and a cultural obsession with building wow products | Dmitry Zlokazov (Head of Product): https://www.lennysnewsletter.com/p/how-revolut-trains-world-class-product-managers [https://www.lennysnewsletter.com/p/how-revolut-trains-world-class-product-managers] • Microsoft Cashback: https://www.microsoft.com/en-us/edge/features/shopping-cashback [https://www.microsoft.com/en-us/edge/features/shopping-cashback] • Superhuman’s secret to success: Ignoring most customer feedback, manually onboarding every new user, obsessing over every detail, and positioning around a single attribute: speed | Rahul Vohra (CEO): https://www.lennysnewsletter.com/p/superhumans-secret-to-success-rahul-vohra [https://www.lennysnewsletter.com/p/superhumans-secret-to-success-rahul-vohra] • Brian Chesky’s secret mentor who died 9 times, started the Burning Man board, and built the world’s first midlife wisdom school | Chip Conley (founder of MEA): https://www.lennysnewsletter.com/p/chip-conley [https://www.lennysnewsletter.com/p/chip-conley] • Workday: https://www.workday.com/ [https://www.workday.com/] • SAP: https://www.sap.com/ [https://www.sap.com/] • ServiceNow: https://www.servicenow.com/ [https://www.servicenow.com/] • Salesforce: https://www.salesforce.com/ [https://www.salesforce.com/] • GitHub: https://github.com/ [https://github.com/] • Atlassian: https://www.atlassian.com/ [https://www.atlassian.com/] • Snowflake: https://www.snowflake.com/ [https://www.snowflake.com/] • Data Superheroes: https://www.snowflake.com/en/data-superheroes/ [https://www.snowflake.com/en/data-superheroes/] • Google Meet: https://meet.google.com/ [https://meet.google.com/] • Andy Nesling on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/andynesling/ [https://www.linkedin.com/in/andynesling/] • Matic: https://maticrobots.com/ [https://maticrobots.com/] • Diego Sanchez’s (Senior Product Manager at Buffer) post on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/feed/update/urn:li:activity:7365014292091346945/ [https://www.linkedin.com/feed/update/urn:li:activity:7365014292091346945/] • Miro: https://miro.com/ [https://miro.com/] • Arc browser: https://arc.net/ [https://arc.net/] • Competing with giants: An inside look at how The Browser Company builds product | Josh Miller (CEO): https://www.lennysnewsletter.com/p/competing-with-giants-an-inside-look [https://www.lennysnewsletter.com/p/competing-with-giants-an-inside-look] • Migros Supermarket: https://www.migros.ch/ [https://www.migros.ch/] • The rise of Cursor: The $300M ARR AI tool that engineers can’t stop using | Michael Truell (co-founder and CEO): https://www.lennysnewsletter.com/p/the-rise-of-cursor-michael-truell [https://www.lennysnewsletter.com/p/the-rise-of-cursor-michael-truell] • Building Lovable: $10M ARR in 60 days with 15 people | Anton Osika (CEO and co-founder): https://www.lennysnewsletter.com/p/building-lovable-anton-osika [https://www.lennysnewsletter.com/p/building-lovable-anton-osika] • Linear’s secret to building beloved B2B products | Nan Yu (Head of Product): https://www.lennysnewsletter.com/p/linears-secret-to-building-beloved-b2b-products-nan-yu [https://www.lennysnewsletter.com/p/linears-secret-to-building-beloved-b2b-products-nan-yu] • Suno: https://suno.com [https://suno.com] • Snapchat: https://www.snapchat.com/ [https://www.snapchat.com/] • Use Reactions, Presenter Overlay, and other effects when videoconferencing on Mac: https://support.apple.com/en-us/105117 [https://support.apple.com/en-us/105117] • Dr. Lipp: https://drlipp.com/ [https://drlipp.com/] • How to be the best coach to product people | Petra Wille (Strong Product People): https://www.lennysnewsletter.com/p/how-to-be-the-best-coach-to-product [https://www.lennysnewsletter.com/p/how-to-be-the-best-coach-to-product] • The Great American Baking Show: https://www.imdb.com/title/tt21822674/ [https://www.imdb.com/title/tt21822674/] • Le Meilleur Pâtissier: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Le_Meilleur_P%C3%A2tissier [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Le_Meilleur_P%C3%A2tissier] • The Upside on Amazon Prime: https://www.amazon.com/gp/video/detail/amzn1.dv.gti.3cb8500f-31af-9f4f-5dec-701e086d58e8 [https://www.amazon.com/gp/video/detail/amzn1.dv.gti.3cb8500f-31af-9f4f-5dec-701e086d58e8] • The Intouchables: https://www.imdb.com/title/tt1675434/ [https://www.imdb.com/title/tt1675434/] • Yoyo stroller: https://www.stokke.com/USA/en-us/category/strollers/yoyo-strollers [https://www.stokke.com/USA/en-us/category/strollers/yoyo-strollers] • UppaBaby strollers: https://uppababy.com/strollers/ [https://uppababy.com/strollers/] — Recommended books: • Product Delight: How to Make Your Product Stand Out with Emotional Connection: https://www.amazon.com/Product-Delight-Stand-Emotional-Connection-ebook/dp/B0FGZ93D9Y/ [https://www.amazon.com/Product-Delight-Stand-Emotional-Connection-ebook/dp/B0FGZ93D9Y/] • Factfulness: Ten Reasons We’re Wrong About the World—and Why Things Are Better Than You Think: https://www.amazon.com/Factfulness-Reasons-World-Things-Better/dp/1250107814 [https://www.amazon.com/Factfulness-Reasons-World-Things-Better/dp/1250107814] • STRONG Product Communities: The Essential Guide to Product Communities of Practice: https://www.amazon.com/STRONG-Product-Communities-Essential-Practice/dp/3982235189/r [https://www.amazon.com/STRONG-Product-Communities-Essential-Practice/dp/3982235189/r] — Production and marketing by https://penname.co/ [https://penname.co/]. For inquiries about sponsoring the podcast, email podcast@lennyrachitsky.com [podcast@lennyrachitsky.com]. Lenny may be an investor in the companies discussed. To hear more, visit www.lennysnewsletter.com [https://www.lennysnewsletter.com?utm_medium=podcast&utm_campaign=show-notes-no-free-preview-language]