Human Learning Systems: a new paradigm for public services with Toby Lowe

Human Learning Systems: a new paradigm for public services with Toby Lowe

What if the obsession with tracking KPIs is actually preventing public services from delivering real outcomes? In this episode, Joe sits down with Toby Lowe, a leading academic and steward of the Human Learning Systems movement. Toby explains why the traditional model of setting targets and performance managing for outcomes is fundamentally broken, and how a Human Learning Systems approach can reshape public services around trust, complexity and continuous improvement. Drawing on decades of research and his own early frustrations as an arts charity chief executive, Toby argues that using outcomes as performance targets inevitably leads to data manipulation and systemic gaming rather than genuine impact. He shares striking examples from the VW Dieselgate scandal to an £80 million public service contract in Plymouth with zero KPIs to show how shifting the focus from "delivery" to "learning relationships" can drastically improve citizens' lives, even reducing avoidable deaths. This is a deep dive into complexity science, the libertarian roots of modern management theory, and how leaders can liberate their teams to do the work that actually matters. In this conversation, we explore: * Why 40 years of research proves that outcomes-based performance management universally leads to data gaming and lying * The moment of frustration in youth criminal justice that turned Toby away from traditional outcomes frameworks * The VW Dieselgate scandal and the inherent danger of relying on proxy measures * Why an obesity systems map proves that governments cannot "deliver" complex outcomes alone * The libertarian origins of Public Choice Theory and how James Buchanan sought to delegitimise the welfare state * How to build an alternative management paradigm centred on mastery, autonomy, and purpose * How the Plymouth Alliance eliminated KPIs entirely and slashed avoidable deaths over a decade * Why data becomes more important, not less, in a Human Learning Systems approach * How Liverpool Combined Authority broke a low-trust cycle to transition into commissioning for learning * Toby's secret life as a hobbyist DJ and the exact complexity book he recommends most This episode is especially relevant for: * Public sector leaders, commissioners, and chief executives * Local government directors and policy professionals * Systems-change practitioners and complexity theorists * Service designers and voluntary sector managers trying to solve complex human problems Stay connected: * Follow Joe on LinkedIn: https://linkedin.com/in/joseph-badmanhttps://linkedin.com/in/joseph-badman [https://linkedin.com/in/joseph-badman] * Read the latest chapters from our upcoming book: https://relationalservicedesign.comhttps://relationalservicedesign.com [https://relationalservicedesign.com] * Master the methodology: https://basistraining.co.uk/https://basistraining.co.uk/ [https://basistraining.co.uk/] * Partner with us: https://basis.co.ukhttps://basis.co.uk [https://basis.co.uk]

Connected Communities: Leading relational change with Tony Clements

What if we organised an entire council around building social connection? In this episode, Joe sits down with Tony Clements, Chief Executive of Ealing Council. Tony explains why he's placed social connection at the heart of the council's purpose, and how a Connected Communities approach is reshaping everything from children's services to emergency management. Drawing on the evidence that loneliness can be worse for health than smoking, Tony argues that local government has a unique locus to build the relationships and community resilience that transactional services alone can't deliver. He shares how Ealing achieved its lowest-ever number of children in care by investing in kinship networks, why emergency management teams are treating the community as the real first responder, and what it takes to shift thousands of daily interactions toward building connection. This is a deep dive into relational leadership, complexity and why the language of KPIs and "clarity" often gets in the way of the work that matters most. In this conversation, we explore: * Why the evidence on social connection rarely reaches public policy * How kinship networks are reducing the number of children in care * Why emergency response depends on community resilience first * The limits of KPIs in relational, complex work * How to balance short-term savings with long-term transformation * Why the bar for change is higher than the bar for the status quo * The bravery it takes to stop doing good things * What AI tools are actually changing inside a council * The chief executive as "rewilder" of the system This episode is especially relevant for: * Public sector leaders and chief executives * Local government commissioners and directors * Policy and systems-change professionals * Service designers working on complex, human problems Stay connected: * Follow Joe on LinkedIn: https://linkedin.com/in/joseph-badmanhttps://linkedin.com/in/joseph-badman [https://linkedin.com/in/joseph-badman] * Read the latest chapters from our upcoming book: https://relationalservicedesign.comhttps://relationalservicedesign.com [https://relationalservicedesign.com] * Master the methodology: https://basistraining.co.uk/https://basistraining.co.uk/ [https://basistraining.co.uk/] * Partner with us: https://basis.co.ukhttps://basis.co.uk [https://basis.co.uk]

The Surgeon-Scrum Master: Embedding agile in the NHS with Rob Macadam

What happens when a consultant surgeon embeds agile ways of working into the messy reality of an NHS operating theatre? In this episode, Joe sits down with Rob McAdam, a Consultant Upper GI and Bariatric Surgeon who also happens to be a qualified Scrum Master. Rob is a rare example of a practitioner who hasn't just read the theory - he has spent years embedding agile ways of working into the heart of the NHS. For Rob, the "stable team", the "prioritised backlog" and the "retrospective" aren't just agile buzzwords - they directly map onto the most important parts of surgical practice. In this deep dive, we explore how he moved his department away from rigid, linear planning and toward a model that values human collaboration over top-down protocols. Rather than asking clinicians to work harder inside a rigid system, this work asks a different question: What if we trusted teams to redesign how the work gets done? In this conversation, we explore: * Why the pandemic forced a shift to 24-hour sprints - and what was lost when things "returned to normal" * How a theatre list already resembles a Scrum team, and what that unlocks * Why traditional list planning produces garbage-in, garbage-out results * What surgical story points look like in practice, and how they've increased capacity without burning people out * How proper retrospectives surface the invisible frictions a debrief never catches * A real example of a tiny AI-assisted fix that's now spreading across an NHS trust * Why "the HIPPO effect" still shapes medicine - and how Agile challenges it * How psychological safety and team-led improvement could transform frontline NHS delivery This episode is especially relevant for: * Clinicians, surgeons and NHS leaders * Public sector commissioners and service designers * Continuous improvement and transformation teams * Anyone working on adaptive, team-led change in complex systems Stay connected: * Follow Joe on LinkedIn: https://linkedin.com/in/joseph-badmanhttps://linkedin.com/in/joseph-badman [https://linkedin.com/in/joseph-badman] * Read the latest chapters from our upcoming book: https://relationalservicedesign.comhttps://relationalservicedesign.com [https://relationalservicedesign.com] * Master the methodology: https://basistraining.co.uk/https://basistraining.co.uk/ [https://basistraining.co.uk/] * Partner with us: https://basis.co.ukhttps://basis.co.uk [https://basis.co.uk]

Busting bureaucracy: unlocking £12 million in pupil premium funding with Myles Bremner

Is your local authority missing its "hidden cohort" for free school meals? In this episode, Joe sits down with Myles Bremner (Bremner & Co.) who has spent over a decade at the heart of school food policy. They confront the "crazy bureaucracy" standing between children and free school meals, and share how working with teams in Devon and Tower Hamlets has already put £12 million in pupil premium funding back into schools across the UK. What you’ll learn: * The Hidden Cohort: How to identify the thousands of eligible pupils currently missing out on vital support. * The £12 Million Impact: Why fixing the registration process for free school meals is the fastest way to secure pupil premium funding. * The September Deadline: Navigating upcoming changes to transitional protection and what they mean for your Local Authority. * Data as a Force for Good: How local data officers are cutting through red tape to automate enrolment. * Partnership Wins: Why honest conversations between councils and schools deliver more than working in silos. Take Action on FSM: How is your team preparing for the policy changes this September? We are currently helping a select cohort of Local Authorities automate their FSM systems. Explore the FSM Hub: https://basis.co.uk/free-school-meals/ [https://www.google.com/url?sa=E&source=gmail&q=https://basis.co.uk/free-school-meals/] Stay connected: * Follow Joe on LinkedIn: https://linkedin.com/in/joseph-badman [https://linkedin.com/in/joseph-badman] * Read the latest chapters from our upcoming book: https://relationalservicedesign.com [http://relationalservicedesign.com] * Master the methodology: https://basistraining.co.uk/ [https://basistraining.co.uk/] * Partner with us: https://basis.co.uk [http://basis.co.uk]

The balcony and the dancefloor: relational leadership with Geeta Subramaniam-Mooney

Can you actually lead a complex system if you never leave the boardroom? In this episode, Joe sits down with Geeta Subramaniam-Mooney, Director for Environment and Climate Change at Hackney Council. Geeta is local government through and through. With more than 25 years in the public sector, she has an eclectic mix of experience, areas she has delivered within and been responsible. From directly working with children at risk and criminal justice services experienced children to cross corporate and partnership services. She knits together people and place-based services. In her current role she is responsible for environmental services, streetscene, public realm, safety and climate change. In this conversation, Geeta speaks honestly about what leadership really looks like in complex systems. It’s not about having all the answers, or being the technical expert in the room. It’s about humility, asking the right questions, building trust, and staying close to the communities you serve. Her message is quietly powerful: lasting change happens through relationships. Through genuine participation. And through leaders who are willing to take the less trodden path - even when it feels slower or harder. What you’ll take away from this episode: * Why leadership is about breadth - the balcony as well as being close to the dancefloor * The role sponsorship plays in supporting others in their journeys * What local government taught us during COVID about speed, adaptability and courage * What meaningful co-production with communities really requires * Why creativity, play and humour can unlock better solutions * Why relationships matter more than frameworks, tools or methods Geeta also reflects on resilience, both personal and organisational, and why supporting people through emotionally demanding work is essential. Supporting staff enables everyone to be valued and able to bring their best selves to their roles, and build public services that are sustainable now and into the future. If you care about social justice, community and organisational resilience, and leadership grounded in humanity rather than hierarchy, this conversation is worth your time. Stay connected: * Follow Joe on LinkedIn: https://linkedin.com/in/joseph-badman [https://linkedin.com/in/joseph-badman] * Read the latest chapters from our upcoming book: https://relationalservicedesign.com [http://relationalservicedesign.com] * Master the methodology: https://basistraining.co.uk/ [https://basistraining.co.uk/] * Partner with us: https://basis.co.uk [http://basis.co.uk]