173* Novel Dialogue Crossover: Aaron Gwyn goes West (Sean McCann, JP)

173* Novel Dialogue Crossover: Aaron Gwyn goes West (Sean McCann, JP)

RTB [https://recallthisbook.org/]'s sister podcast, Novel Dialogue [https://noveldialogue.org/], spoke recently with Aaron Gwyn [https://pages.charlotte.edu/aaron-gwyn/]. He is the author of four novels: The World Beneath, Wynne’s War, and, most recently, two wonderfully linked historical novels, All God’s Children [https://www.europaeditions.com/book/9781609456184/all-god-s-children], which won the Oklahoma Book award, and The Cannibal Owl [https://bellepointpress.com/products/the-cannibal-owl]. In his conversation with Sean McCann [https://www.wesleyan.edu/about/directory/profile.html?id=smccann] of Wesleyan (A Pinnacle of Feeling: American Literature and Presidential Government [https://press.princeton.edu/books/hardcover/9780691136950/a-pinnacle-of-feeling] and Gumshoe America: Hard-Boiled Crime Fiction and the Rise and Fall of New Deal Liberalism [https://read.dukeupress.edu/books/book/494/Gumshoe-AmericaHard-Boiled-Crime-Fiction-and-the]), we learn that Robert Lemmons [https://www.tshaonline.org/handbook/entries/lemmons-bob] is a real historical figure and so is Levi English [https://www.tshaonline.org/handbook/entries/english-levi]. One way to grasp Gwyn’s achievement is to consider the contrast between his durably realist work and Cormac McCarthy’s 1985 Blood Meridian [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blood_Meridian]. Much as Aaron and Sean admire that novel, McCarthy’s characters strike them as monstrous and incredible. How about Charles Portis’s True Grit [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/True_Grit_(novel)], asks John? Aaron loves it for its ventriloquizing power, and its truth-loving willingness to weave in unsettling back stories like Rooster Cogburn’s ties to Quantrill’s Rangers [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quantrill%27s_Raiders], an eerily modern pro-Confederate terrorist paramilitary. In NOvel Dialogue's "signature question," we learn why Aaron’s favorite teacher was Robert Hill [https://www.swearingenfuneral.com/obituaries/robert-hill], Pink-Floyd-loving drummer and perennial inspiration (audio here [http://facebook.com/reel/332513680829847/]). Mentioned in this episode: * Richard Slotkin’s notion of “the man who knows Indians” comes from Gunfighter Nation [https://www.nationalbook.org/books/gunfighter-nation-the-myth-of-the-frontier-in-twentieth-century-america/] * Mark Twain, A Connecticut Yankee in King Arthur’s Court [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/A_Connecticut_Yankee_in_King_Arthur%27s_Court] (1889) * Herman Melville, Moby Dick [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moby-Dick] * William Faulkner, Absalom, Absalom! [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Absalom,_Absalom!] * Toni Morrison, Beloved [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beloved_(novel)] * Thomas Pynchon, Gravity’s Rainbow [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gravity%27s_Rainbow] * John Williams, Stoner [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stoner_(novel)] (but also Butcher’s Crossing –-which John loves [https://www.theguardian.com/books/2016/aug/03/butchers-crossing-an-appreciation-of-john-williamss-perfect-anti-western]— and Augustus [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Augustus_(Williams_novel)], which did indeed split the National Book Award [https://www.nytimes.com/1973/04/11/archives/2-book-awards-split-for-first-time-serengeti-lion-wins-other-judges.html] (not the Pulitzer) in 1973 with John Barth’s Chimera. * Larry McMurtry’s hard-to-get-into Lonesome Dove [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lonesome_Dove] Read  [https://noveldialogue.org/wp-content/uploads/2026/03/10.1-extreme-circumstances-extreme-reactions_-aaron-gwyn-and-sean-mccann-jp-1.pdf]transcript here. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices [https://megaphone.fm/adchoices]

172 David Cunningham on Contesting Confederate Monuments (JP)

David Cunningham [https://artsci.washu.edu/faculty-staff/david-cunningham] joins John to speak about his pathbreaking article  [https://placesjournal.org/article/monumental-juxtapositions-and-the-confederate-landscape/]about visiting each of the 113 communities that removed or relocated Confederate symbols between 2015 and 2023. After discussing his co-authored Social Problems article, “Contesting Commemorative Landscapes” [https://academic.oup.com/socpro/article-abstract/69/3/591/6055437] which first got him thinking about monument removal, he posits that “expungement, amplification, and repositioning” are three ways contemporary communities contest the monuments of the past.. The conversation from there ranges onward through various kinds of contested removal, ending with Cesar Chavez and his ongoing de-monumentalization. David is author of There’s Something Happening Here: The New Left, the Klan, and FBI Counterintelligence [https://nam10.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.ucpress.edu%2Fbooks%2Ftheres-something-happening-here%2Fpaper&data=05%7C02%7Copal%40wustl.edu%7Cb2f076474d07449079e808dd3c012c50%7C4ccca3b571cd4e6d974b4d9beb96c6d6%7C0%7C0%7C638732697920305855%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJFbXB0eU1hcGkiOnRydWUsIlYiOiIwLjAuMDAwMCIsIlAiOiJXaW4zMiIsIkFOIjoiTWFpbCIsIldUIjoyfQ%3D%3D%7C0%7C%7C%7C&sdata=V7RO0VoWfNOsn%2FYFTQE9Of4%2FGXDZ705rKvHMRWBtAJQ%3D&reserved=0] and the award-winning Klansville, U.S.A.: The Rise and Fall of the Civil Rights-Era KKK [https://nam10.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fglobal.oup.com%2Facademic%2Fproduct%2Fklansville-usa-9780199391165%3Fq%3Dklansville%26lang%3Den%26cc%3Dus&data=05%7C02%7Copal%40wustl.edu%7Cb2f076474d07449079e808dd3c012c50%7C4ccca3b571cd4e6d974b4d9beb96c6d6%7C0%7C0%7C638732697920344653%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJFbXB0eU1hcGkiOnRydWUsIlYiOiIwLjAuMDAwMCIsIlAiOiJXaW4zMiIsIkFOIjoiTWFpbCIsIldUIjoyfQ%3D%3D%7C0%7C%7C%7C&sdata=MkaepQr8LUior04zhPwtWuSoUMFCmhL75Jvyn1Iz3pk%3D&reserved=0],, a member of the City of St. Louis Reparations Commission [https://nam10.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.stlcityreparations.com%2F&data=05%7C02%7Copal%40wustl.edu%7Cb2f076474d07449079e808dd3c012c50%7C4ccca3b571cd4e6d974b4d9beb96c6d6%7C0%7C0%7C638732697920378436%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJFbXB0eU1hcGkiOnRydWUsIlYiOiIwLjAuMDAwMCIsIlAiOiJXaW4zMiIsIkFOIjoiTWFpbCIsIldUIjoyfQ%3D%3D%7C0%7C%7C%7C&sdata=Qn3hEmLG993ulmwy9Ed4sXJgEz8zm%2FH9njawL6lW0E4%3D&reserved=0] and recently has been engaged in exploring political signalling in public art and monuments, including a forthcoming article on the political and cultural work of murals in Protestant and Catholic communities and in the interface areas that connect them in Belfast. His earlier Recall This Book episodes include on racialized policing [https://recallthisbook.org/2020/06/17/36-policing-and-white-power-ef-jp-global-policing-series/] in the US, on January 6th [https://recallthisbook.org/2021/01/21/49-the-capitol-insurrection-and-asymmetrical-policing-david-cunningham-ef-jp/] , and also on the 2024 presidential election [https://recallthisbook.org/2024/11/23/138c-what-just-happened-david-cunningham-herbert-hoover-gave-us-woody-guthrie/]–and a conversation with Glenn Patterson, author of Lapsed Protestant  [https://recallthisbook.org/2025/10/30/159-glenn-patterson-you-can-choose-who-you-are-jp-dc/]about the mural culture and politicized spaces of Belfast and Northern Ireland. Read [https://recallthisbook.org/wp-content/uploads/2026/05/cunningham-monument-rtb-172-6.26-.pdf] the episode here. Mentioned in the episode * By David Cunmningham himself: “What Richmond got Right about taking down Confederate Monuments [https://wordinblack.com/2024/12/what-richmond-got-right-confederate-monuments/]” and a 2023 article coauthored with Christina Simko, “Montgomery’s Monumental Truths” [https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/10.1177/15365042231192497] * On place vs space there is wonderful work by Pierre Nora [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lieu_de_m%C3%A9moire] and Henri Lefebvre [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Social_production_of_space]. * Interface zones and the strategic cul de sacs that continue to divide Belfast neighborhoods have been brilliantly detailed and studied by various historians; eg this tour by Neil Jarman [https://digitalcommons.bucknell.edu/northernirelandarchive/37/]. * The lucid John Guillory article (mentioned but not discussed) is “Monuments and Documents: On the Object of Study in the Humanities [https://www.degruyterbrill.com/document/doi/10.7208/chicago/9780226821313-005/html].” * Confederate generals whose statues were erected essentially to glorify the KKK famously include Nathaniel Bedford Forrest [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nathan_Bedford_Forrest]. Private parks built up to collect Confederate monuments (with an underlying anti-government bias) include North Carolina’s Valor Memorial Park, [https://valormemorialpark.com/] and in Texas the SS American Memorial Foundation [https://ssamemorial.org/]’s military retreat space now adorned with removed Confederate statues. In Bentonville, this park [https://jameshberrypark.org/] glorifies a Confederate statue that has now been (dubiously) linked to Governor James H. Berry. * The MOCA/Brick reimagined MONUMENTS Exhibition [https://www.moca.org/exhibition/monuments] includes work by Kara Walker and Bethany Collins [https://www.alexandergray.com/news/3100-bethany-collins-monuments-at-the-geffen-contemporary-at-moca/]. * https://www.nps.gov/boaf/learn/historyculture/shaw.htm [https://www.nps.gov/boaf/learn/historyculture/shaw.htm] * Sylva North Carolina Confederate plaque debate [https://www.thesylvaherald.com/top_stories/article_679d1446-1960-4317-8575-f514c713b945.html]. * Kazuo Ishiguro, The Buried Giant [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Buried_Giant] and the Nietzschean problem of “creative forgetting.” * The idea of Productive creative cognitive dissonance is drawn from MLK’s idea of “creative tension [https://www.mariettamccarty.com/blogposts/martin-luther-king-birmingham-jail].” * Hajar Yazdiha [https://press.princeton.edu/taxonomy/term/26634], Struggle for the People’s King [https://press.princeton.edu/books/paperback/9780691246475/the-struggle-for-the-peoples-king] * How long will the Chavez National Monument  [https://www.nps.gov/cech/index.htm]last? The statue at UC Fresno [https://abc30.com/post/cesar-chavez-statue-fresno-state-officially-removed-president-says/18741278/] is already gone…” Is The Trail of Tears a historical site the same way Confederate statues are? * Denmark Vescey’s Garden  [https://www.amazon.com/Denmark-Veseys-Garden-Slavery-Confederacy/dp/1620973650/ref=tmm_hrd_swatch_0]by Ethan J. Kytle [https://www.amazon.com/Ethan-J-Kytle/e/B00IIS1J9W/ref=dp_byline_cont_book_1] and, Blain Roberts [https://www.amazon.com/Blain-Roberts/e/B00HQX0WUM/ref=dp_byline_cont_book_2] Zore Neale Hurston Their Eyes were Watching God [https://pressbooks.library.torontomu.ca/theireyeswerewatchinggod/chapter/1/] Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices [https://megaphone.fm/adchoices]

171 Elizabeth Bradfield's Books in Dark Times (JP)

For the RtB Books in Dark Times [https://recallthisbook.org/books-in-dark-times/] series back in 2021, John spoke with Elizabeth Bradfield [https://ebradfield.com/bio], editor of Broadsided Press [https://broadsidedpress.org/], poet, professor of creative writing at Brandeis, naturalist, photographer. Her books include Interpretive Work [https://ebradfield.com/interpretive-work], Approaching Ice [https://ebradfield.com/approaching-ice], Once Removed [https://ebradfield.com/once-removed], and Toward Antarctica [https://ebradfield.com/toward-antarctica]. She lives on Cape Cod, travels north every summer to guide people into Arctic climes, birdwatches. Liz is in and of and for our whole natural world. Did poetry sustaining her through the darkest hours of the pandemic? What about other sources of inspiration? Mentioned in the episode: * Eavand Boland [https://www.poetryfoundation.org/poets/eavan-boland], “Quarantine [https://poets.org/poem/quarantine]” (from Against Love Poetry; read her NY Times obituary here [https://www.nytimes.com/2020/04/28/books/eavan-boland-dead.html]) * Maeve Binchy, “Circle of Friends [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Circle_of_Friends_(novel)]“ * Sherwood Anderson, Winesburg, Ohio [https://americanliterature.com/author/sherwood-anderson/book/winesburg-ohio/summary] * Edgar Lee Masters, Spoon River Anthology [http://www.gutenberg.org/ebooks/1280] * Louise Gluck Averno [https://www.amazon.com/Averno-Poems-Louise-Gl%C3%BCck-ebook/dp/B00KF29CSY/ref=sr_1_6?dchild=1&keywords=louise+gluck+adults&qid=1588367842&s=digital-text&sr=1-6] and Wild Iris [https://www.amazon.com/Wild-Iris-Louise-Gluck/dp/0880013346] * Brian Teare, Doomstead Days [https://nightboat.org/book/doomstead-days/] * Derek Walcott, “Omeros [https://www.poetryfoundation.org/poems/48317/omeros]“ * W. S. Merwin, “The Folding Cliffs” [https://www.penguinrandomhouse.com/books/113553/the-folding-cliffs-by-w-s-merwin/] * Natasha Trethewey, “Belloqc’s Ophelia [https://www.graywolfpress.org/books/bellocqs-ophelia]“ * Yeats, “We make out of the quarrel with others, rhetoric, but of the quarrel with ourselves, poetry [https://polyarchive.com/william-butler-yeats-on-poetry/].” * Nest, Eggs and Nestlings of North American Birds [https://press.princeton.edu/books/paperback/9780691122953/nests-eggs-and-nestlings-of-north-american-birds] (Princeton Field Guides) * Trixie Belden [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trixie_Belden] * Shel Silverstein [http://www.shelsilverstein.com/] * Lois Lowry, “The Giver [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Giver]“ * Liz equates poetry and Tetris [https://tetris.com/play-tetris] * Leanne Simpson, “This Accident of Being Lost [https://www.amazon.com/This-Accident-Being-Lost-Stories/dp/1487001274]“ * Elizabeth Bradfield, “We all want to see a mammal [https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2013/07/29/we-all-want-to-see-a-mammal]“ Listen and Read [https://recallthisbookorg.files.wordpress.com/2020/06/bradfield-transcript-rtb-rev-ised-6.23.20.pdf] Here: Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices [https://megaphone.fm/adchoices]

170 What Waltham Does When the Water Rises: Rachel McKane and Danielle Jacques (JP)

Permafrost melts, desert cities boil, inland lakes dry up; but Waltham too in its own way has become one of the dark places of the earth. Adverse manmade climate change is seeping into basements everywhere, and a wonderful new research project, “Building Collective Resilience via Collective Memory [https://walthamfloodstories.com/]” (that website launches very soon) counts some of the ways. John is joined by two Brandeis colleagues who spearheaded the project and supplied some of the local interviews that bring climate change dynamics vividly to life. Danielle Jacques [https://www.brandeis.edu/sociology/people/grad-students.html] is at work on a dissertation exploring the social and spatial dynamics of the renewable energy transition. Rachel McKane [https://www.brandeis.edu/sociology/people/faculty/mckane.html] is Assistant Professor of Sociology with interests in community-based approaches to environmental justice through networks of solidarity and mutual aid, and articles in such journals as Environmental Research Letters, Environmental Justice, Environmental Sociology, and Local Environment. We also hear from Mark and from Colleen (about peaches!) in this episode. Mentioned in the episode Follow the project's growth at Building Collective Resilience via Collective Memory [https://walthamfloodstories.com/]. Or read about its origins in a local newspaper story [https://walthamtimes.org/2025/04/22/floods-in-waltham-local-memories-help-prepare-for-climate-related-challenges/] here. John Dittmer, Local People [https://www.zinnedproject.org/materials/local-people/] Victorian neighborhood class proximity maps of London include the famous Booth "poverty maps. [https://booth.lse.ac.uk/learn-more/what-were-the-poverty-maps]" Yuki Kato, Gardens of Hope [https://nyupress.org/9781479827404/gardens-of-hope/]. Read [https://recallthisbook.org/wp-content/uploads/2026/04/rtb-170-collective-resilience-mckane-jacques-transcript.pdf] the episode here. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices [https://megaphone.fm/adchoices]

169* Hannah Arendt on Oases (JP)

Our Recall This Buck series began by speaking with Christine Desan of Harvard Law School about how key ideas—and the actual currency, physical coins and bills— underlying the modern monetary system get “invisibilized” with that system’s success, so that seeing money clearly is both harder and more vital. Today, illustrious Princeton historian Peter Brown narrates the … Continue reading "42 Recall This Buck 2: Peter Brown on wealth, charity and managerial bishops in early Christianity (JP)" [https://recallthisbook.org/2020/07/30/42-recall-this-buck-2-peter-brown-on-wealth-charity-and-managerial-bishops-in-early-christianity-jp/] Elizabeth Ferry [https://elizabeth-ferry.com/] is Professor of Anthropology at Brandeis University. Email: ferry@brandeis.edu [ferry@brandeis.edu]. John Plotz [https://www.brandeis.edu/english/faculty/plotz.html] is Barbara Mandel Professor of the Humanities at Brandeis University and co-founder of the Brandeis Educational Justice Initiative [https://sites.google.com/brandeis.edu/brandeisjusticeinitiative/home]. Email: plotz@brandeis.edu [plotz@brandeis.edu]. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices [https://megaphone.fm/adchoices]