The Ezra Klein Show

“Make America Healthy Again” is a great idea — somebody should try it. A lot of the concerns animating the MAHA movement — chronic disease, the unhealthiness of the American diet, how profits warp our health care system — are serious issues. But Robert F. Kennedy Jr. hasn’t taken major actions to address them. Instead he’s gutted funding for scientific research, including nearly $500 million dedicated to mRNA vaccine development, throwing a huge amount of possibly lifesaving research in limbo. How did we get here? What are the politics that allowed Donald Trump to preside over Operation Warp Speed, the single most successful pandemic mitigation policy, and then turn around a few years later to appoint Kennedy to undo it all? My colleague David Wallace-Wells has done incredible reporting on how pandemic policies have shaped our politics, culture and society. Rachael Bedard is a physician and a writer who has been thinking deeply about what MAHA represents and where the movement could find common ground with its critics. Mentioned: “‘I Think He Is About to Destroy Vaccines in This Country’ [https://www.nytimes.com/2025/06/18/opinion/kennedy-vaccine-panel.html]” by David Wallace-Wells “Why Calling RFK Jr. ‘Anti-Science’ Misses the Point [https://nymag.com/intelligencer/article/why-calling-rfk-jr-maha-anti-science-misses-the-point.html]” by Rachael Bedard Book Recommendations: Doppelganger [https://us.macmillan.com/books/9780374610326/doppelganger/] by Naomi Klein The End Doesn’t Happen All at Once [https://www.alephbookcompany.com/book/the-end-doesnt-happen-all-at-once-a-pandemic-memoir/] by Chi Rainer Bornfree and Ragini Tharoor Srinivasan Plagues Upon the Earth [https://press.princeton.edu/books/hardcover/9780691192123/plagues-upon-the-earth?srsltid=AfmBOoq8vAJyFOgG2BH9fe3Re66Yg6gX7zM_yDuvP9kbf-WNGKGCzCZc] by Kyle Harper The Making of the Atomic Bomb [https://www.simonandschuster.com/books/The-Making-of-the-Atomic-Bomb/Richard-Rhodes/9781451677614] by Richard Rhodes Calling the Shots [https://muse.jhu.edu/pub/193/monograph/book/76328] by Jennifer Reich Wave [https://www.penguinrandomhouse.com/books/223103/wave-by-sonali-deraniyagala/] by Sonali Deraniyagala Thoughts? Guest suggestions? Email us at ezrakleinshow@nytimes.com. You can find the transcript and more episodes of “The Ezra Klein Show” at nytimes.com/ezra-klein-podcast [https://www.nytimes.com/column/ezra-klein-podcast]. Book recommendations from all our guests are listed at https://www.nytimes.com/article/ezra-klein-show-book-recs.html [https://www.nytimes.com/article/ezra-klein-show-book-recs.html] This episode of “The Ezra Klein Show” was produced by Annie Galvin and Jack McCordick. Fact-checking by Michelle Harris, with Kate Sinclair and Mary Marge Locker. Our senior engineer is Jeff Geld, with additional mixing by Aman Sahota. Our executive producer is Claire Gordon. The show’s production team also includes Marie Cascione, Rollin Hu, Elias Isquith, Kristin Lin, Marina King and Jan Kobal. Original music by Pat McCusker. Audience strategy by Kristina Samulewski and Shannon Busta. The director of New York Times Opinion Audio is Annie-Rose Strasser. Special thanks to Dr. Sunil Patel and Dr. Andrew Gabrielson. Unlock full access to New York Times podcasts and explore everything from politics to pop culture. Subscribe today at nytimes.com/podcasts [http://nytimes.com/podcasts] or on Apple Podcasts and Spotify.

I do my best to respond to your critiques of some of our recent episodes. We got an overwhelming response to my interviews with the Palestinian activist Mahmoud Khalil, the national conservativism theorist Yoram Hazony and the human rights lawyer Philippe Sands on whether Israel is committing genocide in Gaza. So in this subscriber-only Ask Me Anything I answer some of the biggest critiques we received, as well as other listener questions on the Democratic Party’s political strategy, how the ideas in “Abundance” are rippling out in the world and the strange experience I had doing a Munk Debate. Thank you to everyone who sent in questions. And if you aren’t a New York Times subscriber but would like to be, just go to nytimes.com/subscription. [https://www.nytimes.com/subscription] This episode contains strong language. Mentioned: “Why American Jews No Longer Understand One Another [https://www.nytimes.com/2025/07/20/opinion/antisemitism-american-jews-israel-mamdani.html]” by Ezra Klein Our episode with Philippe Sands [https://www.nytimes.com/2025/08/13/opinion/ezra-klein-podcast-philippe-sands.html] Our episode with Mahmoud Khalil [https://www.nytimes.com/2025/08/05/opinion/ezra-klein-podcast-mahmoud-khalil.html] Our episode with Yoram Hazony [https://www.nytimes.com/2025/08/01/opinion/ezra-klein-podcast-yoram-hazony.html] Munk Debate [https://open.spotify.com/episode/2xe4KVuqSgYrPcP6mzm5I9?si=de0369f99c9d4522] Thoughts? Guest suggestions? Email us at ezrakleinshow@nytimes.com. You can find the transcript and more episodes of “The Ezra Klein Show” at nytimes.com/ezra-klein-podcast [https://www.nytimes.com/column/ezra-klein-podcast]. Book recommendations from all our guests are listed at https://www.nytimes.com/article/ezra-klein-show-book-recs.html [https://www.nytimes.com/article/ezra-klein-show-book-recs.html] This episode of “The Ezra Klein Show” was produced by Claire Gordon and Kristin Lin. Fact checking by Michelle Harris, Mary Marge Locker and Kate Sinclair. Our senior engineer is Jeff Geld, with additional mixing by Aman Sahota and Isaac Jones. Our executive producer is Claire Gordon. The show’s production team also includes Marie Cascione, Annie Galvin, Rollin Hu, Elias Isquith, Jack McCordick, Marina King and Jan Kobal. Original music by Pat McCusker. Audience strategy by Kristina Samulewski and Shannon Busta. The director of New York Times Opinion Audio is Annie-Rose Strasser. Unlock full access to New York Times podcasts and explore everything from politics to pop culture. Subscribe today at nytimes.com/podcasts [http://nytimes.com/podcasts] or on Apple Podcasts and Spotify.

What is going on with the economy right now? There are a lot of mixed signals. President Trump slashed taxes, but he’s also bringing in a lot of money through tariffs. Inflation is creeping up, but the stock market keeps rising. Eye-wateringly large investments are flowing to A.I., which could lead to an explosion of productivity but also mass job loss. And then Trump fired the head of the Bureau of Labor Statistics after a disappointing jobs report, raising concerns that the government’s data on the economy might get shakier. Natasha Sarin is the president and a founder of the Budget Lab at Yale. She has been tracking these trends and modeling the potential economic effects of many of Trump’s policies. I invited her on the show to walk through what she is thinking about the economy. Mentioned: “The Tariffs Kicked In. The Sky Didn’t Fall. Were the Economists Wrong? [https://www.nytimes.com/2025/07/31/opinion/tariffs-economy-inflation-recession.html]” by Jason Furman “Does the Stock Market Know Something We Don’t? [https://www.theatlantic.com/economy/archive/2025/08/stock-market-theories/683780/]” by Rogé Karma Book Recommendations: Showdown at Gucci Gulch [https://www.penguinrandomhouse.com/books/118994/showdown-at-gucci-gulch-by-jeffrey-birnbaum/] by Alan Murray Remarkably Bright Creatures [https://www.harpercollins.com/products/remarkably-bright-creatures-shelby-van-pelt?variant=43021750108194] by Shelby Van Pelt The Undoing Project [https://wwnorton.com/books/The-Undoing-Project/] by Michael Lewis Thoughts? Guest suggestions? Email us at ezrakleinshow@nytimes.com. You can find the transcript and more episodes of “The Ezra Klein Show” at nytimes.com/ezra-klein-podcast. Book recommendations from all our guests are listed at https://www.nytimes.com/article/ezra-klein-show-book-recs.html This episode of “The Ezra Klein Show” was produced by Rollin Hu. Fact-checking by Michelle Harris. Our senior engineer is Jeff Geld, with additional mixing by Aman Sahota. Our executive producer is Claire Gordon. The show’s production team also includes Marie Cascione, Annie Galvin, Elias Isquith, Kristin Lin, Jack McCordick, Marina King and Jan Kobal. Original music by Aman Sahota, Carole Sabouraud and Pat McCusker. Audience strategy by Kristina Samulewski and Shannon Busta. The director of New York Times Opinion Audio is Annie-Rose Strasser. Special thanks to Katharine Abraham, Skanda Amarnath, Kimberly Clausing, Kathryn Anne Edwards, Matthew Klein, and Claudia Sahm. Unlock full access to New York Times podcasts and explore everything from politics to pop culture. Subscribe today at nytimes.com/podcasts [http://nytimes.com/podcasts] or on Apple Podcasts and Spotify.

In December 2023, when South Africa accused Israel of genocide before the International Court of Justice, I thought it was wrong to do so. Israel had been attacked. Its defense was legitimate. The blood was on Hamas’s hands. But over the last year, I have watched a slew of organizations and scholars arrive at the view that whatever Israel’s war on Gaza began as, its mass assault on Palestinian civilians fits the definition of genocidal violence. This is a view now held by Amnesty International, B’Tselem, Human Rights Watch, and the president of the International Association of Genocide Scholars, among many others One reason I have stayed away from the word genocide is that there is an imprecision at its heart. When people use the word genocide, I think they imagine something like the Holocaust: the attempted extermination of an entire people. But the legal definition of genocide encompasses much more than that. So what is a genocide? And is this one? Philippe Sands is a lawyer who’s worked on a number of genocide cases. He is the author of, among other books, “East West Street [https://www.penguinrandomhouse.com/books/227917/east-west-street-by-philippe-sands/],” about how the idea of genocide was developed and written into international law. He is the best possible guide to the hardest possible topic. Mentioned: “What the Inventor of the Word ‘Genocide’ Might Have Said About Putin’s War [https://www.nytimes.com/2022/04/28/opinion/biden-putin-genocide.html]” by Philippe Sands “‘Only the Strong Survive.’ How Israel’s Benjamin Netanyahu Is Testing the Limits of Power [https://time.com/5623848/benjamin-netanyahu-interview-2/]” by Brian Bennett “The laws of war must guide Israel’s response to Hamas atrocity [https://www.ft.com/content/9f1b190d-c955-4381-a6f5-ab4a2bf1c32c]” The Ratline [https://www.penguinrandomhouse.com/books/566224/the-ratline-by-philippe-sands/] by Philippe Sands 38 Londres Street [https://www.penguinrandomhouse.com/books/672469/38-londres-street-by-philippe-sands/] by Philippe Sands Book Recommendations: Janet Flanner’s World [https://www.harpercollins.com/products/janet-flanners-world-janet-genet-flanner?variant=39939190685730] by Janet Flanner Commonwealth [https://www.harpercollins.com/products/commonwealth-ann-patchett?variant=32206179074082] by Ann Patchett By Night in Chile [https://www.ndbooks.com/book/by-night-in-chile/] by Roberto Bolaño Thoughts? Guest suggestions? Email us at ezrakleinshow@nytimes.com. You can find the transcript and more episodes of “The Ezra Klein Show” at nytimes.com/ezra-klein-podcast [https://www.nytimes.com/column/ezra-klein-podcast]. Book recommendations from all our guests are listed at https://www.nytimes.com/article/ezra-klein-show-book-recs.html [https://www.nytimes.com/article/ezra-klein-show-book-recs.html] This episode of “The Ezra Klein Show” was produced by Jack McCordick and Annie Galvin. Fact-checking by Michelle Harris, with Kate Sinclair. Our senior engineer is Jeff Geld, with additional mixing by Aman Sahota. Our executive producer is Claire Gordon. The show’s production team also includes Marie Cascione, Annie Galvin, Rollin Hu, Elias Isquith, Kristin Lin, Marina King and Jan Kobal. Original music by Marian Lozano, Dan Powell, Carole Sabouraud and Pat McCusker. Audience strategy by Kristina Samulewski and Shannon Busta. The director of New York Times Opinion Audio is Annie-Rose Strasser. Unlock full access to New York Times podcasts and explore everything from politics to pop culture. Subscribe today at nytimes.com/podcasts [http://nytimes.com/podcasts] or on Apple Podcasts and Spotify.

Mahmoud Khalil was a leader in Columbia University’s pro-Palestinian protests. In March, he was arrested by ICE agents and held for more than 100 days in a Louisiana detention facility. The Trump administration claims Khalil is deportable — even though he has a green card, married to a U.S. citizen — because he poses a threat to U.S. foreign policy goals. Khalil’s alleged offense here is speech. Khalil is out now on bail, and he’s still speaking. I wanted to hear what he had to say. Mentioned: A Letter From Palestinian Activist Mahmoud Khalil [https://www.aclu.org/news/free-speech/a-letter-from-palestinian-activist-mahmoud-khalil] The Hundred Years’ War on Palestine [https://us.macmillan.com/books/9781627798556/thehundredyearswaronpalestine/] by Rashid Khalidi Book Recommendations: One Day, Everyone Will Have Always Been Against This [https://www.penguinrandomhouse.com/books/777485/one-day-everyone-will-have-always-been-against-this-by-omar-el-akkad/] by Omar El Akkad The Question of Palestine [https://www.penguinrandomhouse.com/books/159795/the-question-of-palestine-by-edward-w-said/] by Edward Said My Promised Land [https://www.penguinrandomhouse.com/books/165169/my-promised-land-by-ari-shavit/] by Ari Shavit Thoughts? Guest suggestions? Email us at ezrakleinshow@nytimes.com. You can find the transcript and more episodes of “The Ezra Klein Show” at nytimes.com/ezra-klein-podcast [https://www.nytimes.com/column/ezra-klein-podcast]. Book recommendations from all our guests are listed at https://www.nytimes.com/article/ezra-klein-show-book-recs.html [https://www.nytimes.com/article/ezra-klein-show-book-recs.html] This episode of “The Ezra Klein Show” was produced by Rollin Hu and Jack McCordick. Fact-checking by Michelle Harris. Our senior engineer is Jeff Geld, with additional mixing by Aman Sahota. Our executive producer is Claire Gordon. The show’s production team also includes Marie Cascione, Annie Galvin, Elias Isquith, Kristin Lin, Marina King and Jan Kobal. Original music by Carole Sabouraud, Aman Sahota and Pat McCusker. Audience strategy by Kristina Samulewski and Shannon Busta. The director of New York Times Opinion Audio is Annie-Rose Strasser. Unlock full access to New York Times podcasts and explore everything from politics to pop culture. Subscribe today at nytimes.com/podcasts [http://nytimes.com/podcasts] or on Apple Podcasts and Spotify.