The Ezra Klein Show

There’s something of a policy revolution afoot: As of March, more than a dozen states — including California, Florida and Ohio — have passed bills or adopted policies [https://ballotpedia.org/State_policies_on_cellphone_use_in_K-12_public_schools] that aim to limit cellphone usage at school. More are expected to follow. Jonathan Haidt is the leader of this particular insurgency. “The Anxious Generation: How the Great Rewiring of Childhood Is Causing an Epidemic of Mental Illness [https://www.penguinrandomhouse.com/books/729231/the-anxious-generation-by-jonathan-haidt/],” his book exploring the decline of the “play-based childhood” and the rise of the “phone-based childhood,” has been on the New York Times best-seller list for a year. It feels, to me, like we’re finally figuring out a reasonable approach to smartphones and social media and kids … just in time for that approach to be deranged by the question of A.I. and kids, which no one is really prepared for. So I wanted to have Haidt on the show to talk through both of those topics, and the questions we often ignore beneath them: What is childhood for? What are parents for? What do human beings need in order to flourish? You know, the small stuff. Haidt is a professor at New York University Stern School of Business and the author of “The Righteous Mind [https://www.penguinrandomhouse.com/books/73535/the-righteous-mind-by-jonathan-haidt/]” and “The Coddling of the American Mind [https://www.penguinrandomhouse.com/books/557315/the-coddling-of-the-american-mind-by-greg-lukianoff-and-jonathan-haidt/]” (with Greg Lukianoff). His newsletter is called After Babel [https://www.afterbabel.com/]. This episode contains strong language. Mentioned: “She Fell in Love With ChatGPT. Like, Actual Love. With Sex. [https://www.nytimes.com/2025/02/25/podcasts/the-daily/ai-chatgpt-boyfriend-relationship.html]” by The Daily The Age of Addiction [https://www.hup.harvard.edu/books/9780674248229] by David T. Courtwright “Have Smartphones Destroyed a Generation? [https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2017/09/has-the-smartphone-destroyed-a-generation/534198/]” By Jean Twenge Stolen Focus [https://www.penguinrandomhouse.com/books/634289/stolen-focus-by-johann-hari/] by Johann Hari Book Recommendations: The Stoic Challenge [https://wwnorton.com/books/the-stoic-challenge] by William B. Irvine Deep Work [https://www.hachettebookgroup.com/titles/cal-newport/deep-work/9781455586691/?lens=grand-central-publishing] by Cal Newport How to Win Friends and Influence People [https://www.simonandschuster.com/books/How-to-Win-Friends-and-Influence-People/Dale-Carnegie/9781982171452] by Dale Carnegie Thoughts? Guest suggestions? Email us at ezrakleinshow@nytimes.com. You can find transcripts (posted midday) and more episodes of “The Ezra Klein Show” at nytimes.com/ezra-klein-podcast [https://www.nytimes.com/column/ezra-klein-podcast]. Book recommendations from all our guests are listed at https://www.nytimes.com/article/ezra-klein-show-book-recs [https://www.nytimes.com/article/ezra-klein-show-book-recs.html]. This episode of “The Ezra Klein Show” was produced by Jack McCordick. Fact-checking by Mary Marge Locker and Kate Sinclair. Mixing by Isaac Jones, with Efim Shapiro and Aman Sahota. Our executive editor is Claire Gordon. The show’s production team also includes Michelle Harris, Rollin Hu, Elias Isquith and Kristin Lin. Original music by Pat McCusker. Audience strategy by Kristina Samulewski and Shannon Busta. The executive producer of New York Times Opinion Audio is Annie-Rose Strasser. Unlock full access to New York Times podcasts and explore everything from politics to pop culture. Subscribe today at nytimes.com/podcasts [http://nytimes.com/podcasts] or on Apple Podcasts and Spotify.

It’s our first subscriber-only “Ask Me Anything” of the year. The show’s executive producer, Claire Gordon, joins me to discuss your questions about the risk of a constitutional crisis and how Democrats, businesses and universities are responding to President Trump.  Thank you to everyone who sent in questions. And if you aren’t a New York Times subscriber but would like to be, just go to https://www.nytimes.com/subscription. [https://www.nytimes.com/subscription] This episode contains strong language. Mentioned: “A Democrat Who Is Thinking Differently [https://www.nytimes.com/2025/02/18/opinion/ezra-klein-podcast-jake-auchincloss.html]” by The Ezra Klein Show with Jake Auchincloss “Don't Believe Him [https://www.nytimes.com/2025/02/02/opinion/ezra-klein-podcast-trump-column-read.html]” by Ezra Klein Thoughts? Guest suggestions? Email us at ezrakleinshow@nytimes.com. You can find transcripts (posted midday) and more episodes of “The Ezra Klein Show” at nytimes.com/ezra-klein-podcast [https://www.nytimes.com/column/ezra-klein-podcast]. Book recommendations from all our guests are listed at https://www.nytimes.com/article/ezra-klein-show-book-recs [https://www.nytimes.com/article/ezra-klein-show-book-recs.html]. This episode of “The Ezra Klein Show” was produced by Kristin Lin. Fact-checking by Michelle Harris. Mixing by Isaac Jones, with Efim Shapiro and Aman Sahota. Our executive producer is Claire Gordon. The show’s production team also includes Rollin Hu, Elias Isquith and Jack McCordick. Original music by Pat McCusker. Audience strategy by Kristina Samulewski and Shannon Busta. The executive producer of New York Times Opinion Audio is Annie-Rose Strasser. Unlock full access to New York Times podcasts and explore everything from politics to pop culture. Subscribe today at nytimes.com/podcasts [http://nytimes.com/podcasts] or on Apple Podcasts and Spotify.

The so-called Department of Government Efficiency is great branding. Who could be against a more efficient government? But “efficiency” obfuscates what’s really happening here. Efficiency to what end? Elon Musk, President Trump and DOGE’s boosters have offered various objectives — cutting the deficit, eliminating fraud and abuse, creating a leaner and more responsive government. But DOGE’s actions in the past two months don’t seem to align with any of those goals. Santi Ruiz is the senior editor at the Institute for Progress and the author and host of the “Statecraft [https://www.statecraft.pub/podcast]” podcast and newsletter. He’s to my right politically and had higher hopes, at first, about DOGE’s efforts, but he’s now grappling with the reality of what it’s actually doing. This episode contains strong language. Mentioned: “50 Thoughts on DOGE [https://www.statecraft.pub/p/50-thoughts-on-doge]” by Santí Ruiz “How to Defend Presidential Authority [https://www.statecraft.pub/p/how-to-defend-presidential-authority]” by Santí Ruiz “The Anti-D.E.I. Crusader Who Wants to Dismantle the Department of Education [https://www.nytimes.com/2025/03/07/opinion/chris-rufo-trump-anti-dei-education.html]” by Ross Douthat Book Recommendations: Stalin’s War [https://www.hachettebookgroup.com/titles/sean-mcmeekin/stalins-war/9781541672796/?lens=basic-books] by Sean McMeekin Back from the Brink [https://global.oup.com/academic/product/back-from-the-brink-9780197797778?cc=us&lang=en&] by Peter Moskos Power And Responsibility [https://archive.org/details/powerandresponsi027468mbp] by Romano Guardini Thoughts? Guest suggestions? Email us at ezrakleinshow@nytimes.com. You can find transcripts (posted midday) and more episodes of “The Ezra Klein Show” at nytimes.com/ezra-klein-podcast [https://www.nytimes.com/column/ezra-klein-podcast]. Book recommendations from all our guests are listed at https://www.nytimes.com/article/ezra-klein-show-book-recs [https://www.nytimes.com/article/ezra-klein-show-book-recs.html]. This episode of “The Ezra Klein Show” was produced by Rollin Hu. Fact-checking by Michelle Harris with Mary Marge Locker and Kate Sinclair. Mixing by Isaac Jones, with Efim Shapiro and Aman Sahota. Our executive producer is Claire Gordon. The show’s production team also includes Elias Isquith, Kristin Lin and Jack McCordick. Original music by Pat McCusker. Audience strategy by Kristina Samulewski and Shannon Busta. The executive producer of New York Times Opinion Audio is Annie-Rose Strasser. Special thanks to Switch and Board Podcast Studio, Ryan Bourne, Rohan Grey, Don Moynihan, Quinn Slobodian and Jennifer Pahlka. Unlock full access to New York Times podcasts and explore everything from politics to pop culture. Subscribe today at nytimes.com/podcasts [http://nytimes.com/podcasts] or on Apple Podcasts and Spotify.

To mark the release of our new book “Abundance [https://www.simonandschuster.com/books/Abundance/Ezra-Klein/9781668023488],” my co-author Derek Thompson had me on his podcast, “Plain English [https://www.theringer.com/podcasts/plain-english-with-derek-thompson],” to talk about it. We’re on book tour right now, so we’re doing a lot of talking about this book. But this conversation is different. It’s just Derek and me, and we get into the story of how the book came together, and all the people and ideas that influenced us – a kind of intellectual history of the abundance agenda. And I thought the audience of this show might find this interesting too.   This episode of “Plain English” was recorded on March 11. Mentioned: “Abundance [https://www.simonandschuster.com/books/Abundance/Ezra-Klein/9781668023488]” by Ezra Klein and Derek Thompson “Abundance” book tour [https://www.simonandschuster.com/p/abundance-tour] “The Political Fight of the Century [https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2025/03/abundance-americas-next-political-order/682069/]” by Derek Thompson “The Economic Mistake the Left Is Finally Confronting [https://www.nytimes.com/2021/09/19/opinion/supply-side-progressivism.html]” by Ezra Klein This episode contains strong language. Unlock full access to New York Times podcasts and explore everything from politics to pop culture. Subscribe today at nytimes.com/podcasts [http://nytimes.com/podcasts] or on Apple Podcasts and Spotify.

After the last election, there were all kinds of theories about where Democrats went wrong. But now, four months later, we have a lot more data – and it tells a few clear stories. David Shor is the head of data science at Blue Rose Research, a Democratic polling firm, which does an enormous amount of surveying of the electorate. A few weeks ago, Shor was walking me through a deck he made of key charts and numbers that explain the election results. And I thought this would be good to do in public. Because this is information that doesn’t just help explain what went wrong for Democrats in 2024. It’s a set of hard truths they need to keep in mind to mount a comeback in 2026 and 2028. This episode is also a bit of an experiment. It works great in audio. But on YouTube, you can actually see the slides. So if you’re up for a video podcast, this is a good one to start with: https://www.youtube.com/@EzraKleinShow [https://www.youtube.com/@EzraKleinShow] This episode contains strong language. Mentioned: Blue Rose Research slide deck [https://www.dropbox.com/scl/fi/jnod5b2gq4w5fhmk91mzl/The-Ezra-Klein-Show-Blue-Rose-Research-Slide-Deck.pdf?rlkey=o6d9q04ir6h4vawfw6255dvft&st=ve39b6ew&dl=0] "Donald Trump is the perfect 'moderate' [https://www.vox.com/2015/8/15/9159117/donald-trump-moderate]" by Ezra Klein Book Recommendations: The Hollow Parties [https://press.princeton.edu/books/hardcover/9780691248554/the-hollow-parties?srsltid=AfmBOoqowRmwVhHmqR46awzOzeyYNEitK_IcZD237M021KBXw4Ntb8c2] by Daniel Schlozman and Sam Rosenfeld The Nature and Origins of Mass Opinion [https://www.cambridge.org/core/books/nature-and-origins-of-mass-opinion/70B1485D3A9CFF55ADCCDD42FC7E926A] by John R. Zaller The Victory Lab [https://www.penguinrandomhouse.com/books/215192/the-victory-lab-by-sasha-issenberg/] by Sasha Issenberg Thoughts? Guest suggestions? Email us at ezrakleinshow@nytimes.com. You can find transcripts (posted midday) and more episodes of “The Ezra Klein Show” at nytimes.com/ezra-klein-podcast [https://www.nytimes.com/column/ezra-klein-podcast]. Book recommendations from all our guests are listed at https://www.nytimes.com/article/ezra-klein-show-book-recs [https://www.nytimes.com/article/ezra-klein-show-book-recs.html]. This episode of “The Ezra Klein Show” was produced by Jack McCordick. Fact-checking by Michelle Harris. Mixing by Isaac Jones, with Efim Shapiro and Aman Sahota. Our executive producer is Claire Gordon. The show’s production team also includes Rollin Hu, Elias Isquith and Kristin Lin. Original music by Pat McCusker and Aman Sahota. Audience strategy by Kristina Samulewski and Shannon Busta. The executive producer of New York Times Opinion Audio is Annie-Rose Strasser. Unlock full access to New York Times podcasts and explore everything from politics to pop culture. Subscribe today at nytimes.com/podcasts [http://nytimes.com/podcasts] or on Apple Podcasts and Spotify.