The Ezra Klein Show

I have had a meditation practice for about 15 years now. I started hoping it would calm me down, and it has. But it’s also made me more aware of the strangeness of my mind. Certain thoughts emerge seemingly out of nowhere. Many of them return again and again. Why? And what relationship should you have to your thoughts when you realize you’re not the one controlling them? Mark Epstein is a psychiatrist and also a Buddhist. He’s spent decades observing the mind through those two distinct traditions, and has written many books that helped build a bridge between them, from his 1995 landmark book, “Thoughts Without a Thinker [https://www.hachettebookgroup.com/titles/mark-epstein/thoughts-without-a-thinker/9780465050949/?lens=basic-books],” to his latest work, “The Zen of Therapy. [https://www.penguinrandomhouse.com/books/656323/the-zen-of-therapy-by-mark-epstein-md/]” So I thought it would be interesting to talk to him about what he’s learned about the mind after all these decades of observing it. Mentioned: Open to Desire [https://www.penguinrandomhouse.com/books/291594/open-to-desire-by-mark-epstein/] by Mark Epstein Book Recommendations: John & Paul [https://us.macmillan.com/books/9781250386465/johnpaul/] by Ian Leslie Essays After Eighty [https://www.harpercollins.com/products/essays-after-eighty-donald-hall?variant=40970571055138] by Donald Hall Kairos [https://www.ndbooks.com/book/kairos/] by Jenny Erpenbeck Thoughts? Guest suggestions? Email us at ezrakleinshow@nytimes.com. You can find the transcript and more episodes of “The Ezra Klein Show” at nytimes.com/ezra-klein-podcast [https://www.nytimes.com/column/ezra-klein-podcast]. Book recommendations from all our guests are listed at https://www.nytimes.com/article/ezra-klein-show-book-recs.html [https://www.nytimes.com/article/ezra-klein-show-book-recs.html] This episode of “The Ezra Klein Show” was produced by Kristin Lin. Fact-checking by Michelle Harris. Our senior engineer is Jeff Geld, with additional mixing by Aman Sahota. Our executive producer is Claire Gordon. The show’s production team also includes Marie Cascione, Annie Galvin, Rollin Hu, Elias Isquith, Jack McCordick, Marina King and Jan Kobal. Original music by Pat McCusker. Audience strategy by Kristina Samulewski and Shannon Busta. The director of New York Times Opinion Audio is Annie-Rose Strasser. Unlock full access to New York Times podcasts and explore everything from politics to pop culture. Subscribe today at nytimes.com/podcasts [http://nytimes.com/podcasts] or on Apple Podcasts and Spotify.

Donald Trump and Zohran Mamdani are both proof of how the ability to capture attention is power. And the attention economy isn’t reshaping just politics; it’s also reshaping the actual economy: the crypto market, A.I. venture capital, and how people, especially Gen Z, are making career decisions. Kyla Scanlon has emerged as a leading theorist on the economics of attention and is herself a member of Gen Z. She is the author of the book “In This Economy? [https://www.penguinrandomhouse.com/books/737854/in-this-economy-by-kyla-scanlon/]” and Kyla’s Newsletter [https://kyla.substack.com/] on Substack. I asked her on the show to walk us through her theory of the attention economy. This episode contains strong language. Mentioned: “Gen Z and the End of Predictable Progress [https://kyla.substack.com/p/gen-z-and-the-end-of-predictable]” by Kyla Scanlon “‘We Are the Most Rejected Generation’ [https://www.nytimes.com/2025/05/15/opinion/rejection-college-youth.html]” by David Brooks “A Divided Gen Z Is Crying for Mercy [https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/2025/03/19/covid-gen-z-generational-divide/?pwapi_token=eyJ0eXAiOiJKV1QiLCJhbGciOiJIUzI1NiJ9.eyJyZWFzb24iOiJnaWZ0IiwibmJmIjoxNzQyNDQzMjAwLCJpc3MiOiJzdWJzY3JpcHRpb25zIiwiZXhwIjoxNzQzODI1NTk5LCJpYXQiOjE3NDI0NDMyMDAsImp0aSI6ImViYjdjNTczLTk1YWMtNGQxMS1iMDIwLWZkNDM2NmU4YTc4OSIsInVybCI6Imh0dHBzOi8vd3d3Lndhc2hpbmd0b25wb3N0LmNvbS9vcGluaW9ucy8yMDI1LzAzLzE5L2NvdmlkLWdlbi16LWdlbmVyYXRpb25hbC1kaXZpZGUvIn0.OI3u1WJjJ6mXoqV06nCZXScc_Cdd211jCccbbzdOTws]” by Rachel Janfaza “The Price of Nails Since 1695 [https://www.nber.org/system/files/working_papers/w29617/w29617.pdf]” by Daniel E. Sichel Give People Money [https://www.penguinrandomhouse.com/books/551618/give-people-money-by-annie-lowrey/] by Annie Lowrey “The World of Wrestling [https://web.mit.edu/21l.432/www/readings/Barthes_WorldOfWrestling.pdf]” by Roland Barthes “Peter Thiel and the Antichrist [https://www.nytimes.com/2025/06/26/opinion/peter-thiel-antichrist-ross-douthat.html]” by Interesting Times with Ross Douthat Book Recommendations: The Screwtape Letters [https://www.harpercollins.com/products/the-screwtape-letters-c-s-lewis?variant=43671522672674] by C.S. Lewis A Grief Observed [https://www.harpercollins.com/products/a-grief-observed-c-s-lewis?variant=43671522476066] by C.S. Lewis Jonathan Livingston Seagull [https://www.simonandschuster.com/books/Jonathan-Livingston-Seagull/Richard-Bach/9781476793313] by Richard Bach Thoughts? Guest suggestions? Email us at ezrakleinshow@nytimes.com. You can find the transcript and more episodes of “The Ezra Klein Show” at nytimes.com/ezra-klein-podcast [https://www.nytimes.com/column/ezra-klein-podcast]. Book recommendations from all our guests are listed at https://www.nytimes.com/article/ezra-klein-show-book-recs.html [https://www.nytimes.com/article/ezra-klein-show-book-recs.html] This episode of “The Ezra Klein Show” was produced by Rollin Hu. Fact-checking by Michelle Harris. Fact-checking by Michelle Harris with Kate Sinclair. Our senior engineer is Jeff Geld, with additional mixing by Aman Sahota. Our executive producer is Claire Gordon. The show’s production team also includes Marie Cascione, Annie Galvin, Elias Isquith, Marina King, Jan Kobal, Kristin Lin and Jack McCordick. Original music by Pat McCusker. Audience strategy by Kristina Samulewski and Shannon Busta. The director of New York Times Opinion Audio is Annie-Rose Strasser. Unlock full access to New York Times podcasts and explore everything from politics to pop culture. Subscribe today at nytimes.com/podcasts [http://nytimes.com/podcasts] or on Apple Podcasts and Spotify.

President Trump’s “big, beautiful bill” is a bad piece of legislation. It includes trillions of dollars in tax cuts that are very much tilted toward the rich, along with savage cuts to Medicaid, nutrition assistance and green energy. And on Tuesday, July 1, the Senate passed it in a 51-50 vote, with Vice President JD Vance as the tiebreaker. But bad policy only matters if people know about it, and a lot of people don’t — partly because there are an overwhelming number of provisions, and partly because the Trump administration is already flooding the zone with so many other major policy fights. So I asked Matt Yglesias, the author of the Slow Boring [https://www.slowboring.com/] newsletter, back on the show to go through what is in this bill and why it has been so hard to build momentum for pushback. We spoke on Thursday, June 26. Mentioned: “A List of Nearly Everything in the Senate G.O.P. Bill, and How Much It Would Cost or Save [https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2025/06/30/upshot/senate-republican-megabill.html]” by Alicia Parlapiano, Margot Sanger-Katz, Aatish Bhatia and Josh Katz The System [https://www.hachettebookgroup.com/titles/david-s-broder/the-system/9780316083959/] by David S. Broder and Haynes Johnson The Ten Year War [https://us.macmillan.com/books/9781250270931/thetenyearwar/] by Jonathan Cohn Book recommendations: Proto [https://www.bloomsbury.com/us/proto-9781639732586/] by Laura Spinney Wuthering Heights [https://www.penguinrandomhouse.com/books/286389/wuthering-heights-by-emily-bronte/] by Emily Bronte The Social Transformation of American Medicine [https://www.hachettebookgroup.com/titles/paul-starr/the-social-transformation-of-american-medicine/9780465093038/?lens=basic-books] by Paul Starr Thoughts? Guest suggestions? Email us at ezrakleinshow@nytimes.com. You can find the transcript and more episodes of “The Ezra Klein Show” at nytimes.com/ezra-klein-podcast [https://www.nytimes.com/column/ezra-klein-podcast]. Book recommendations from all our guests are listed at https://www.nytimes.com/article/ezra-klein-show-book-recs.html [https://www.nytimes.com/article/ezra-klein-show-book-recs.html] This episode of “The Ezra Klein Show” was produced by Jack McCordick and Rollin Hu. Fact-checking by Kelsey Kudak. Our senior engineer is Jeff Geld, with additional mixing by Aman Sahota. Our executive producer is Claire Gordon. The show’s production team also includes Marie Cascione, Annie Galvin, Michelle Harris, Elias Isquith, Marina King, Jan Kobal, and Kristin Lin. Original music by Pat McCusker. Audience strategy by Kristina Samulewski and Shannon Busta. The director of New York Times Opinion Audio is Annie-Rose Strasser. Unlock full access to New York Times podcasts and explore everything from politics to pop culture. Subscribe today at nytimes.com/podcasts [http://nytimes.com/podcasts] or on Apple Podcasts and Spotify.

Zohran Mamdani created a new anti-establishment playbook — in his use of social video, his focus on affordability and his position on Israel.    His assumed victory in New York City’s Democratic mayoral primary, trouncing the former governor Andrew Cuomo, was one of the biggest political upsets in years. And while the electorate in this case is pretty specific, I think it still points to some tectonic changes in Democratic politics.   My friend Chris Hayes, the host of MSNBC’s “All In With Chris Hayes,” came on the show earlier this year to talk about his book “The Sirens’ Call,” which is all about how social media and the new attention economy are shaping politics. So I wanted to bring him back for a sequel, to get “The Sirens’ Call” take on Mamdani’s victory, and Hayes’s insights as a born-and-raised New Yorker, with a deep feel for both the city’s politics and the broader Democratic Party. This episode contains strong language. Book Recommendations: The Name of the Rose [https://www.harpercollins.com/products/the-name-of-the-rose-umberto-eco?variant=41080910348322] by Umberto Eco Tomorrow Is Yesterday [https://us.macmillan.com/books/9780374617127/tomorrowisyesterday/] by Hussein Agha and Robert Malley Mao's Last Revolution [https://www.hup.harvard.edu/books/9780674027480] by Roderick MacFarquhar and Michael Schoenhals Thoughts? Guest suggestions? Email us at ezrakleinshow@nytimes.com. You can find the transcript and more episodes of “The Ezra Klein Show” at nytimes.com/ezra-klein-podcast [https://www.nytimes.com/column/ezra-klein-podcast]. Book recommendations from all our guests are listed at https://www.nytimes.com/article/ezra-klein-show-book-recs.html [https://www.nytimes.com/article/ezra-klein-show-book-recs.html] This episode of “The Ezra Klein Show” was produced by Rollin Hu and Jack McCordick. Fact-checking by Michelle Harris, with Kate Sinclair and Mary Marge Locker. Our senior engineer is Jeff Geld, with additional mixing by Aman Sahota and Isaac Jones. Our executive producer is Claire Gordon. The show’s production team also includes Marie Cascione, Elias Isquith, Marina King, Jan Kobal, Annie Galvin and Kristin Lin. Original music by Pat McCusker. Audience strategy by Kristina Samulewski and Shannon Busta. The director of New York Times Opinion Audio is Annie-Rose Strasser. Unlock full access to New York Times podcasts and explore everything from politics to pop culture. Subscribe today at nytimes.com/podcasts [http://nytimes.com/podcasts] or on Apple Podcasts and Spotify.

For decades, Israel has wanted American support to bomb Iranian nuclear sites. But U.S. presidents, both Republican and Democrat, have resisted — until President Trump. So, what changed? And what are the likely consequences of that decision? Aaron David Miller is a senior fellow at the Carnegie Endowment for International Peace and a longtime diplomat in the region. He joins me to discuss recent events and how the latest attacks on Iran have changed the balance of power in the Middle East. This episode contains strong language. Book Recommendations: Master of the Game [https://www.penguinrandomhouse.com/books/535623/master-of-the-game-by-martin-indyk/] by Martin Indyk The Man Who Ran Washington [https://www.penguinrandomhouse.com/books/253135/the-man-who-ran-washington-by-peter-baker-and-susan-glasser/] by Peter Baker and Susan Glasser Tomorrow Is Yesterday [https://www.amazon.com/Tomorrow-Yesterday-Pursuit-Israel-Palestine/dp/0374617120] by Hussein Agha and Robert Malley Thoughts? Guest suggestions? Email us at ezrakleinshow@nytimes.com. You can find the transcript and more episodes of “The Ezra Klein Show” at nytimes.com/ezra-klein-podcast [https://www.nytimes.com/column/ezra-klein-podcast]. Book recommendations from all our guests are listed at https://www.nytimes.com/article/ezra-klein-show-book-recs.html [https://www.nytimes.com/article/ezra-klein-show-book-recs.html] This episode of “The Ezra Klein Show” was produced by Annie Galvin. Fact-checking by Michelle Harris and Jack McCordick. Our senior engineer is Jeff Geld, with additional mixing by Aman Sahota. Our executive producer is Claire Gordon. The show’s production team also includes Marie Cascione, Rollin Hu, Elias Isquith, Marina King, Jan Kobal, Kristin Lin and Jack McCordick. Original music by Pat McCusker. Audience strategy by Kristina Samulewski and Shannon Busta. The director of New York Times Opinion Audio is Annie-Rose Strasser. Unlock full access to New York Times podcasts and explore everything from politics to pop culture. Subscribe today at nytimes.com/podcasts [http://nytimes.com/podcasts] or on Apple Podcasts and Spotify. Unlock full access to New York Times podcasts and explore everything from politics to pop culture. Subscribe today at nytimes.com/podcasts [http://nytimes.com/podcasts] or on Apple Podcasts and Spotify.