The Ezra Klein Show

There’s a serious high-stakes policy fight at the heart of this. The Democrats didn’t pick a fight over authoritarianism or tariffs or masked immigration agents in the streets. They picked one over health care. And the issue here is very real. Huge health insurance subsidies passed under President Joe Biden are set to expire at the end of this year, threatening to make health care premiums skyrocket and kick millions off their insurance. Neera Tanden was one of the architects of the Affordable Care Act and has worked in Democratic policymaking for decades. She is the president of the Center for American Progress and was a director of Biden’s Domestic Policy Council. I asked her on the show to lay out the policy stakes of the shutdown and what a deal might look like. Mentioned: KFF Health Tracking Poll [https://www.kff.org/affordable-care-act/kff-health-tracking-poll-public-weighs-political-consequences-of-health-policy-legislation/] The Time Tax [https://www.harpercollins.com/products/the-time-tax-annie-lowrey] by Annie Lowrey One Big Beautiful Bill Act [https://www.congress.gov/bill/119th-congress/house-bill/1/text] Book Recommendations: Why Nations Fail [https://www.penguinrandomhouse.com/books/205014/why-nations-fail-by-daron-acemoglu-and-james-a-robinson/] by Daron Acemoglu and James A. Robinson The Sirens’ Call [https://www.penguinrandomhouse.com/books/719661/the-sirens-call-by-chris-hayes/] by Chris Hayes End Times [https://www.penguinrandomhouse.com/books/703238/end-times-by-peter-turchin/] by Peter Turchin Thoughts? Guest suggestions? Email us at ezrakleinshow@nytimes.com. You can find transcripts (posted midday) and more episodes of “The Ezra Klein Show” at nytimes.com/ezra-klein-podcast [https://www.nytimes.com/column/ezra-klein-podcast], and you can find Ezra on Twitter @ezraklein. Book recommendations from all our guests are listed at https://www.nytimes.com/article/ezra-klein-show-book-recs [https://www.nytimes.com/article/ezra-klein-show-book-recs.html]. This episode of “The Ezra Klein Show” was produced by Rollin Hu. Fact-checking by Michelle Harris and Kate Sinclair. Our senior engineer is Jeff Geld, with additional mixing by Aman Sahota. Our executive producer is Claire Gordon. The show’s production team also includes Marie Cascione, Annie Galvin, Kristin Lin, Jack McCordick, Marina King and Jan Kobal. Original music by Pat McCusker. Audience strategy by Kristina Samulewski and Shannon Busta. The director of New York Times Opinion Audio is Annie-Rose Strasser. Subscribe today at nytimes.com/podcasts [http://nytimes.com/podcasts] or on Apple Podcasts and Spotify. You can also subscribe via your favorite podcast app here https://www.nytimes.com/activate-access/audio?source=podcatcher [https://www.nytimes.com/activate-access/audio?source=podcatcher]. For more podcasts and narrated articles, download The New York Times app at nytimes.com/app.

Brian Eno’s music opens up worlds I love to step into during trying times. And this conversation with Eno did the same thing. Eno is a trailblazing musician and producer who’s worked on seminal records by U2, David Bowie, the Talking Heads and Coldplay, among others. But Eno isn’t just a great collaborator with other artists; he’s also a great collaborator with machines. He’s been experimenting with music technology for decades. Long before we started worrying about ChatGPT replacing human creativity, Eno was tinkering with generative systems to pioneer ambient music – a genre that has deeply influenced how we listen to music today. Eno’s use (and playful misuse) of technology has expanded the possibilities of what music and sound can be. Many of you emailed in asking for a break from the news. Here it is. This episode contains strong language. Mentioned: What Art Does [https://www.faber.co.uk/product/9780571395514-what-art-does-an-unfinished-theory/?srsltid=AfmBOoof8KJO5BMKixtU0NGYyw8OV7o0j1t19XH5VuLJ6ovtbyD5HTzq] by Brian Eno and Bette Adriaanse East West Street [https://www.penguinrandomhouse.com/books/227917/east-west-street-by-philippe-sands/] by Philippe Sands Silence [https://www.weslpress.org/9780819573650/silence/] by John Cage Book Recommendations: Printing and the Mind of Man edited by John Carter and Percy H. Muir A Pattern Language [https://global.oup.com/academic/product/a-pattern-language-9780195019193?cc=us&lang=en&] by Christopher Alexander Naples ’44 [https://www.hachettebookgroup.com/titles/norman-lewis/naples-44/9780306835254/?lens=grand-central-publishing] by Norman Lewis Music Recommendations: The Rural Blues [https://folkways.si.edu/rural-blues-a-study-of-the-vocal-and-instrumental-resources/music/album/smithsonian] “The Velvet Underground” by the Velvet Underground [https://www.discogs.com/release/6777637-The-Velvet-Underground-The-Velvet-Underground] The Consolers [https://www.discogs.com/artist/1262916-The-Consolers] Thoughts? Guest suggestions? Email us at ezrakleinshow@nytimes.com. You can find transcripts (posted midday) and more episodes of “The Ezra Klein Show” at nytimes.com/ezra-klein-podcast [https://www.nytimes.com/column/ezra-klein-podcast], and you can find Ezra on Twitter @ezraklein. Book recommendations from all our guests are listed at https://www.nytimes.com/article/ezra-klein-show-book-recs [https://www.nytimes.com/article/ezra-klein-show-book-recs.html]. This episode of “The Ezra Klein Show” was produced by Annie Galvin. Fact-checking by Mary Marge Locker, Kate Sinclair and Michelle Harris. Our senior engineer is Jeff Geld, with additional mixing by Aman Sahota. Our executive producer is Claire Gordon. The show’s production team also includes Marie Cascione, Rollin Hu, Kristin Lin, Jack McCordick, Marina King and Jan Kobal. Original music by Aman Sahota and Pat McCusker. Audience strategy by Kristina Samulewski and Shannon Busta. Transcript editing by Sarah Murphy. The director of New York Times Opinion Audio is Annie-Rose Strasser. And special thanks to Alyssa Jane Moxley, Sophie Abramowitz, Geeta Dayal, Jack Hamilton and Victor Szabo. Subscribe today at nytimes.com/podcasts [http://nytimes.com/podcasts] or on Apple Podcasts and Spotify. You can also subscribe via your favorite podcast app here https://www.nytimes.com/activate-access/audio?source=podcatcher [https://www.nytimes.com/activate-access/audio?source=podcatcher]. For more podcasts and narrated articles, download The New York Times app at nytimes.com/app.

The writer Ta-Nehisi Coates was harshly critical of my response to Charlie Kirk’s assassination. In an article in Vanity Fair, he suggested I was whitewashing Kirk’s legacy, comparing it to the whitewashing of the Southern cause after the Civil War. So I wanted to have Coates on the show to talk out our disagreement, as well as some deeper questions that I think exist underneath it about the work of politics. What should the left do about the fact that so many Americans share Kirk’s views? What kinds of disagreements should we try to bridge? When is that work moral and necessary, and when is it a betrayal? This episode contains strong language. Mentioned: “Charlie Kirk, Redeemed: A Political Class Finds Its Lost Cause [https://www.vanityfair.com/news/story/charlie-kirk-ezra-klein-tanehisi-coates?srsltid=AfmBOoq4ZoLGapWcQW5Db-ticP303qsdPhhT1Nj7OgP5uVvaQqzgfXgr]” by Ta-Nehisi Coates Between the World and Me [https://www.penguinrandomhouse.com/books/220290/between-the-world-and-me-by-ta-nehisi-coates/] by Ta-Nehisi Coates “My President Was Black [https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2017/01/my-president-was-black/508793/]” by Ta-Nehisi Coates Book Recommendations: The Brothers [https://us.macmillan.com/books/9781250053121/thebrothersjohnfosterdullesallendullesandtheirsecretworldwar/] by Stephen Kinzer Race and Reunion [https://www.hup.harvard.edu/books/9780674008199] by David W. Blight The Sirens’ Call [https://www.penguinrandomhouse.com/books/719661/the-sirens-call-by-chris-hayes/] by Chris Hayes Thoughts? Guest suggestions? Email us at ezrakleinshow@nytimes.com. You can find the transcript and more episodes of “The Ezra Klein Show” at nytimes.com/ezra-klein-podcast [https://www.nytimes.com/column/ezra-klein-podcast]. Book recommendations from all our guests are listed at https://www.nytimes.com/article/ezra-klein-show-book-recs.html [https://www.nytimes.com/article/ezra-klein-show-book-recs.html] This episode of “The Ezra Klein Show” was produced by Rollin Hu. Fact-checking by Michelle Harris, with Mary Marge Locker. Our senior engineer is Jeff Geld, with additional mixing by Aman Sahota. Our executive producer is Claire Gordon. The show’s production team also includes Marie Cascione, Annie Galvin, Kristin Lin, Jack McCordick, Marina King and Jan Kobal. Original music by Pat McCusker. Audience strategy by Kristina Samulewski and Shannon Busta. Transcript editing by Sarah Murphy. The director of New York Times Opinion Audio is Annie-Rose Strasser. Subscribe today at nytimes.com/podcasts [http://nytimes.com/podcasts] or on Apple Podcasts and Spotify. You can also subscribe via your favorite podcast app here https://www.nytimes.com/activate-access/audio?source=podcatcher [https://www.nytimes.com/activate-access/audio?source=podcatcher]. For more podcasts and narrated articles, download The New York Times app at nytimes.com/app.

This is McCarthyism 2.0.  Since Charlie Kirk’s assassination, the Trump administration has been speed-running an attack on the “radical left.” And the tactics it has been using are darkly reminiscent of the Red Scare of the 1940s and ’50s. So what can that period teach us about the current moment and what the Trump administration might do next? How far could this go?  Corey Robin is a political theorist at Brooklyn College. He’s an expert on McCarthyism and the author of the book “The Reactionary Mind,” one of the most insightful books you can read on the Trumpist right. In this conversation, he walks through what happened in the first and second Red Scares and what made him start worrying about the Trump administration. This episode contains strong language. Mentioned: Red Scare [https://www.simonandschuster.com/books/Red-Scare/Clay-Risen/9781982141806] by Clay Risen “How Democrats Drove Silicon Valley Into Trump’s Arms [https://www.nytimes.com/2025/01/17/opinion/marc-andreessen-trump-silicon-valley.html]” by Ross Douthat The Furies [https://press.princeton.edu/books/paperback/9780691090153/the-furies?srsltid=AfmBOoqa-XxYlT9grCaItIY6HiV-uzocd9nNGDKwNvt-WHrn9QNcb3pl] by Arno J. Mayer Book Recommendations: On the Slaughter [https://www.nyrb.com/products/on-the-slaughter] by Hayim Nahman Bialik Naming Names [https://us.macmillan.com/books/9780809001835/namingnames/] by Victor S. Navasky Citizen Marx [https://press.princeton.edu/books/hardcover/9780691205236/citizen-marx?srsltid=AfmBOorsEBgtWDOoT08ccX-Y8OHkQCK1dDhPSVOyykGGsSLpOei_oIjZ] by Bruno Leipold Thoughts? Guest suggestions? Email us at ezrakleinshow@nytimes.com. You can find the transcript and more episodes of “The Ezra Klein Show” at nytimes.com/ezra-klein-podcast [https://www.nytimes.com/column/ezra-klein-podcast]. Book recommendations from all our guests are listed at https://www.nytimes.com/article/ezra-klein-show-book-recs.html [https://www.nytimes.com/article/ezra-klein-show-book-recs.html] This episode of “The Ezra Klein Show” was produced by Jack McCordick and Annie Galvin. Fact-checking by Kelsey Kudak. Our senior engineer is Jeff Geld, with additional mixing by Aman Sahota and Isaac Jones. Our executive producer is Claire Gordon. The show’s production team also includes Marie Cascione, Rollin Hu, Kristin Lin, Marina King and Jan Kobal. Original music by Pat McCusker. Audience strategy by Kristina Samulewski and Shannon Busta. The director of New York Times Opinion Audio is Annie-Rose Strasser. Special thanks to Beverly Gage and Clay Risen. Subscribe today at nytimes.com/podcasts [http://nytimes.com/podcasts] or on Apple Podcasts and Spotify. You can also subscribe via your favorite podcast app here https://www.nytimes.com/activate-access/audio?source=podcatcher [https://www.nytimes.com/activate-access/audio?source=podcatcher]. For more podcasts and narrated articles, download The New York Times app at nytimes.com/app.

The Utah governor is trying to model a different kind of leadership in a very dangerous political moment. The Trump administration seems intent on using the assassination of Charlie Kirk to crack down on what it calls “the radical left.” But Spencer Cox doesn’t believe that suppression will make Americans safer. For years now, Cox has been thinking seriously about our toxic political culture and what the path out of it could be. So I wanted to have him on the show to talk about how he responded in the hours and days after the shooting, what it has left him thinking about and what he thinks we should do now. Mentioned: Politics and Social Change Lab [https://www.pascl.stanford.edu/] Book Recommendations: Our Biggest Fight [https://www.penguinrandomhouse.com/books/743398/our-biggest-fight-by-frank-h-mccourt-jr-with-michael-j-casey/] by Frank H. McCourt, Jr. A Time to Build [https://www.hachettebookgroup.com/titles/yuval-levin/a-time-to-build/9781541699281/?lens=basic-books] by Yuval Levin American Covenant [https://www.hachettebookgroup.com/titles/yuval-levin/american-covenant/9780465040742/?lens=basic-books] by Yuval Levin The Pursuit of Happiness [https://www.simonandschuster.com/books/The-Pursuit-of-Happiness/Jeffrey-Rosen/9781668002483] by Jeffrey Rosen Thoughts? Guest suggestions? Email us at ezrakleinshow@nytimes.com. You can find the transcript and more episodes of “The Ezra Klein Show” at nytimes.com/ezra-klein-podcast [https://www.nytimes.com/column/ezra-klein-podcast]. Book recommendations from all our guests are listed at https://www.nytimes.com/article/ezra-klein-show-book-recs.html [https://www.nytimes.com/article/ezra-klein-show-book-recs.html] This episode of “The Ezra Klein Show” was produced by Rollin Hu. Fact checking by Michelle Harris, Kate Sinclair and Mary Marge Locker. Our senior engineer is Jeff Geld, with additional mixing by Aman Sahota. Our executive producer is Claire Gordon. The show’s production team also includes Marie Cascione, Annie Galvin, Kristin Lin, Jack McCordick, Marina King and Jan Kobal. Original music by Pat McCusker. Audience strategy by Kristina Samulewski and Shannon Busta. The director of New York Times Opinion Audio is Annie-Rose Strasser. Subscribe today at nytimes.com/podcasts [http://nytimes.com/podcasts] or on Apple Podcasts and Spotify. You can also subscribe via your favorite podcast app here https://www.nytimes.com/activate-access/audio?source=podcatcher [https://www.nytimes.com/activate-access/audio?source=podcatcher]. For more podcasts and narrated articles, download The New York Times app at nytimes.com/app.