The Ezra Klein Show

Vice President JD Vance gave a speech recently that deserved more attention than it got. Accepting an award at a right-wing think tank, he argued that there’s a fundamental brokenness in how we define who is an American. He explained that this is the root of many of our country’s problems: a national identity that has become too broad. That was also a core idea of the 2018 book “The Virtue of Nationalism [https://www.hachettebookgroup.com/titles/yoram-hazony/the-virtue-of-nationalism/9781541645370/?lens=basic-books],” which caused a sensation on the right. Its author, the Israeli political theorist Yoram Hazony, went on to build a movement. For years, he has hosted NatCon — short for National Conservatism — conferences. Those events have featured speakers like Marco Rubio, who is now the secretary of state, and Senator Josh Hawley. And one of the most reliable speakers, year after year, has been Vance. I wanted to talk to Hazony. What exactly is his argument, his worldview? And are the Trump administration’s policies putting it into practice? Mentioned: JD Vance’s speech at The Claremont Institute [https://americanmind.org/salvo/american-statesmanship-for-the-golden-age/] Book Recommendations: The Demon in Democracy [https://www.encounterbooks.com/books/the-demon-in-democracy-paperback/?srsltid=AfmBOooQVle2OWaD4KGVKTn8uG_HaOniweBHZOl6aKyT9g7AEl7k5qPP] by Ryszard Legutko The Strategy of Denial [https://yalebooks.yale.edu/book/9780300268027/the-strategy-of-denial/] by Elbridge Colby Israel and Civilization [https://www.simonandschuster.com/books/Israel-and-Civilization/Josh-Hammer/9781635769739] by Josh Hammer Thoughts? Guest suggestions? Email us at ezrakleinshow@nytimes.com. You can find the transcript and more episodes of “The Ezra Klein Show” at nytimes.com/ezra-klein-podcast [https://www.nytimes.com/column/ezra-klein-podcast]. Book recommendations from all our guests are listed at https://www.nytimes.com/article/ezra-klein-show-book-recs.html [https://www.nytimes.com/article/ezra-klein-show-book-recs.html] This episode of “The Ezra Klein Show” was produced by Elias Isquith. Fact-checking by Will Peischel. Our senior engineer is Jeff Geld, with additional mixing by Aman Sahota. Our executive producer is Claire Gordon. The show’s production team also includes Marie Cascione, Annie Galvin, Michelle Harris, Rollin Hu, Marina King, Jan Kobal, Kristin Lin and Jack McCordick. Original music by Pat McCusker. Audience strategy by Kristina Samulewski and Shannon Busta. The director of New York Times Opinion Audio is Annie-Rose Strasser. Unlock full access to New York Times podcasts and explore everything from politics to pop culture. Subscribe today at nytimes.com/podcasts [http://nytimes.com/podcasts] or on Apple Podcasts and Spotify.

“It’s so insidious, people don’t realize it,” Barbara Kingsolver told me, describing the prejudice against “country people.” Kingsolver is one of those “country people,” as well as a literary legend in her own time, who set out to write the “great Appalachian novel.” And I think she did.  “Demon Copperhead [https://www.harpercollins.com/products/demon-copperhead-barbara-kingsolver?variant=41227655118882]” won the Pulitzer Prize in 2023, and we taped this conversation later that year. And I wanted to re-air it because the divide between rural and urban America remains just as strong today, and as relevant to our politics. And Kingsolver might be the country’s sharpest and most poignant observer of it. Mentioned: Shiloh and Other Stories [https://www.penguinrandomhouse.com/books/108765/shiloh-and-other-stories-by-bobbie-ann-mason/] by Bobbie Ann Mason Book Recommendations: Landings [https://arwendonahue.com/landings/] by Arwen Donahue Raising Lazarus [https://www.hachettebookgroup.com/titles/beth-macy/raising-lazarus/9780316430227/?lens=little-brown] by Beth Macy Pod [https://www.simonandschuster.com/books/Pod/Laline-Paull/9781639363711] by Laline Paull Thoughts? Guest suggestions? Email us at ezrakleinshow@nytimes.com. You can find the transcript and more episodes of “The Ezra Klein Show” at nytimes.com/ezra-klein-podcast [https://www.nytimes.com/column/ezra-klein-podcast]. Book recommendations from all our guests are listed at https://www.nytimes.com/article/ezra-klein-show-book-recs.html. [https://www.nytimes.com/article/ezra-klein-show-book-recs.html] This episode of “The Ezra Klein Show” was produced by Annie Galvin. Fact-checking by Michelle Harris. Mixing by Sonia Herrero, with Aman Sahota. Our senior engineer is Jeff Geld. Our executive producer is Claire Gordon. The show’s production team also includes Marie Cascione, Rollin Hu, Elias Isquith, Marina King, Jan Kobal, Kristin Lin and Jack McCordick. Original music by Isaac Jones. Audience strategy by Kristina Samulewski and Shannon Busta. The director of New York Times Opinion Audio is Annie-Rose Strasser. Unlock full access to New York Times podcasts and explore everything from politics to pop culture. Subscribe today at nytimes.com/podcasts [http://nytimes.com/podcasts] or on Apple Podcasts and Spotify.

Biden passed the most ambitious climate legislation in American history. Trump just shredded it. What does that mean for the future of renewable energy in America? Where does the climate movement go from here? And is it too late for us to avert climate catastrophe?  To answer these questions, I invited onto the show two climate experts: Jesse Jenkins, who is a leading climate modeler and a professor at Princeton University, where he runs the Princeton ZERO Lab, and Jane Flegal, who is the executive director of the Blue Horizons Foundation and served on the Biden administration’s climate policy team. We discuss how far Trump’s policies have set us back, the lessons the climate movement should learn from this loss and what the next wave of climate politics may look like.  Mentioned: “Impacts of the One Big Beautiful Bill On The US Energy Transition – Summary Report [https://zenodo.org/records/15801701]” by REPEAT Project “There’s a Race to Power the Future. China Is Pulling Away. [https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2025/06/30/climate/china-clean-energy-power.html]” by David Gelles, Somini Sengupta, Keith Bradsher and Brad Plumer Jesse’s Book Recommendations: Why Nothing Works [https://www.perseusbooks.com/titles/marc-j-dunkelman/why-nothing-works/9781541700215/] by Marc J. Dunkelman Energy [https://www.simonandschuster.com/books/Energy/Richard-Rhodes/9781501105364] by Richard Rhodes Mars Trilogy Series [https://www.penguinrandomhouse.com/series/ZMS/mars-trilogy/] by Kim Stanley Robinson Jane’s Book Recommendations: Mating [https://www.penguinrandomhouse.com/books/158972/mating-by-norman-rush/] by Norman Rush Frontiers of Illusion [https://archive.org/details/frontiersofillus0000sare] by Daniel Sarewitz An Engine, Not a Camera [https://mitpress.mit.edu/9780262633673/an-engine-not-a-camera/] by Donald MacKenzie Thoughts? Guest suggestions? Email us at ezrakleinshow@nytimes.com. You can find the transcript and more episodes of “The Ezra Klein Show” at nytimes.com/ezra-klein-podcast. Book recommendations from all our guests are listed at https://www.nytimes.com/article/ezra-klein-show-book-recs.html This episode of “The Ezra Klein Show” was produced by Rollin Hu and Jack McCordick. Fact-checking by Michelle Harris. Our senior engineer is Jeff Geld, with additional mixing by Aman Sahota. Our executive producer is Claire Gordon. The show’s production team also includes Marie Cascione, Annie Galvin, Elias Isquith, Marina King, Jan Kobal and Kristin Lin. Original music by Pat McCusker. Audience strategy by Kristina Samulewski and Shannon Busta. The director of New York Times Opinion Audio is Annie-Rose Strasser. Unlock full access to New York Times podcasts and explore everything from politics to pop culture. Subscribe today at nytimes.com/podcasts [http://nytimes.com/podcasts] or on Apple Podcasts and Spotify.

The consensus that held American Jewry together for generations is breaking down.  That consensus, roughly, was this: What is good for Israel is good for the Jews; anti-Zionism is a form of antisemitism; and there will someday soon be a two-state solution that reconciles Zionism and liberalism — or, at the very least, Israel is seeking such a solution. Every single component of that consensus has cracked. And as I've been talking to people from different walks of American Jewish life — politicians and rabbis and activists and analysts and journalists — what I realize is there is nothing coming in to replace it. Read the column here [https://www.nytimes.com/2025/07/20/opinion/antisemitism-american-jews-israel-mamdani.html]. Thoughts? Guest suggestions? Email us at ezrakleinshow@nytimes.com. You can find the transcript and more episodes of “The Ezra Klein Show” at nytimes.com/ezra-klein-podcast [https://www.nytimes.com/column/ezra-klein-podcast]. Book recommendations from all our guests are listed at https://www.nytimes.com/article/ezra-klein-show-book-recs.html [https://www.nytimes.com/article/ezra-klein-show-book-recs.html] This column read for “The Ezra Klein Show” was produced by our executive producer, Claire Gordon, and Marie Cascione. Fact-checking by Jack McCordick and Michelle Harris. Our senior engineer is Jeff Geld, with additional mixing by Isaac Jones. The show’s production team also includes Annie Galvin, Rollin Hu, Elias Isquith, Marina King, Jan Kobal, Kristin Lin and Aman Sahota. Original music by Pat McCusker. Audience strategy by Kristina Samulewski and Shannon Busta. The director of New York Times Opinion Audio is Annie-Rose Strasser. Unlock full access to New York Times podcasts and explore everything from politics to pop culture. Subscribe today at nytimes.com/podcasts [http://nytimes.com/podcasts] or on Apple Podcasts and Spotify.

MAGA has been infighting over the Jeffrey Epstein files. And that’s because the conspiracy theories around Epstein hit at the very core of MAGA’s whole worldview. Today’s episode looks closer at that worldview. Will Sommer has been tracking conspiracies for years now. He was a reporter at The Washington Post and is now at The Bulwark, and he’s the author of “Trust the Plan: The Rise of QAnon and the Conspiracy That Unhinged America [https://www.harpercollins.com/products/trust-the-plan-will-sommer?variant=41063526957090].” In this conversation, we discuss the rise of QAnon, Donald Trump’s slippery relationship to the more conspiracy-minded factions of his base and how the intrigue around the Epstein files has challenged his credibility as an outsider taking on the “corrupt elites.” This episode contains strong language. Mentioned: “MAGA Is Tearing Itself Apart Over Jeffrey Epstein [https://www.nytimes.com/2025/07/13/opinion/epstein-files-trump-maga.html]” by David French P.R.R.I. Survey [https://prri.org/press-release/new-prri-report-reveals-nearly-one-in-five-americans-and-one-in-four-republicans-still-believe-in-qanon-conspiracy-theories/] Nixonland [https://www.simonandschuster.com/books/Nixonland/Rick-Perlstein/9780743243032] by Rick Perlstein Book Recommendations: Buckley [https://www.penguinrandomhouse.com/books/176399/buckley-by-sam-tanenhaus/] by Sam Tanenhaus American Tabloid [https://www.penguinrandomhouse.com/books/46215/american-tabloid-by-james-ellroy/] by James Ellroy Low Life [https://shop.tenement.org/product/low-life/] by Lucy Sante Thoughts? Guest suggestions? Email us at ezrakleinshow@nytimes.com. You can find the transcript and more episodes of “The Ezra Klein Show” at nytimes.com/ezra-klein-podcast [https://www.nytimes.com/column/ezra-klein-podcast]. Book recommendations from all our guests are listed at https://www.nytimes.com/article/ezra-klein-show-book-recs.html [https://www.nytimes.com/article/ezra-klein-show-book-recs.html] This episode of “The Ezra Klein Show” was produced by Annie Galvin and Jack McCordick. Fact-checking by Michelle Harris, Mary Marge Locker, Jack McCordick and Kristin Lin. Our senior engineer is Jeff Geld, with additional mixing by Aman Sahota and Isaac Jones. Our executive producer is Claire Gordon. The show’s production team also includes Marie Cascione, Rollin Hu, Elias Isquith, Marina King and Jan Kobal. Original music by Pat McCusker. Audience strategy by Kristina Samulewski and Shannon Busta. The director of New York Times Opinion Audio is Annie-Rose Strasser. Special thanks to Mia Bloom and Sophia Moskalenko. Unlock full access to New York Times podcasts and explore everything from politics to pop culture. Subscribe today at nytimes.com/podcasts [http://nytimes.com/podcasts] or on Apple Podcasts and Spotify.