The Ezra Klein Show

This is an episode in two parts. First, my thoughts on Charlie Kirk’s murder, now that I’ve had a few days to process it, and to see the unfolding reactions and responses on both sides. Then a conversation with Ben Shapiro — one that was recorded shortly before Kirk’s assassination, but that has a different significance after it. This episode contains strong language. Mentioned: “Charlie Kirk Was Practicing Politics the Right Way” [https://www.nytimes.com/2025/09/11/opinion/charlie-kirk-assassination-fear-politics.html] by Ezra Klein Dominion [https://www.hachettebookgroup.com/titles/tom-holland/dominion/9780465093502/?lens=basic-books] by Tom Holland “What J.D. Vance Believes [https://www.nytimes.com/2024/06/13/opinion/jd-vance-interview.html]” by Ross Douthat Book Recommendations: Superabundance [https://store.cato.org/products/superabundance] by Marian Tupy and Gale Pooley Democracy in America [https://press.uchicago.edu/ucp/books/book/chicago/D/bo3612682.html] by Alexis de Tocqueville  The Constitution of Liberty [https://press.uchicago.edu/ucp/books/book/chicago/C/bo9253956.html] by F.A. Hayek Thoughts? Guest suggestions? Email us at ezrakleinshow@nytimes.com. You can find the transcript and more episodes of “The Ezra Klein Show” at nytimes.com/ezra-klein-podcast. Book recommendations from all our guests are listed at https://www.nytimes.com/article/ezra-klein-show-book-recs.html This episode of “The Ezra Klein Show” was produced by Annie Galvin and Elias Isquith. Fact-checking by Michelle Harris. Our senior engineer is Jeff Geld, with additional mixing by Aman Sahota. Our executive producer is Claire Gordon. The show’s production team also includes Marie Cascione, Rollin Hu, Kristin Lin, Jack McCordick, Marina King and Jan Kobal. Original music by Carole Sabouraud, Sonia Herrero and Pat McCusker. Audience strategy by Kristina Samulewski and Shannon Busta. The director of New York Times Opinion Audio is Annie-Rose Strasser. Unlock full access to New York Times podcasts and explore everything from politics to pop culture. Subscribe today at nytimes.com/podcasts [http://nytimes.com/podcasts] or on Apple Podcasts and Spotify.

In a few weeks the government’s funding will run out. If Democrats vote for a new spending bill, they will be funding Trump’s autocratic takeover. What should they do? Thoughts? Guest suggestions? Email us at ezrakleinshow@nytimes.com. You can find the transcript and more episodes of “The Ezra Klein Show” at nytimes.com/ezra-klein-podcast [https://www.nytimes.com/column/ezra-klein-podcast]. Book recommendations from all our guests are listed at https://www.nytimes.com/article/ezra-klein-show-book-recs.html [https://www.nytimes.com/article/ezra-klein-show-book-recs.html] This column read was produced by our executive producer, Claire Gordon. Fact-checking by Jack McCordick. Our senior engineer is Jeff Geld, with mixing by Aman Sahota. The show’s production team also includes Marie Cascione, Annie Galvin, Michelle Harris, Rollin Hu, Kristin Lin, Marina King and Jan Kobal. Original music by Aman Sahota and Pat McCusker. Audience strategy by Kristina Samulewski and Shannon Busta. The director of New York Times Opinion Audio is Annie-Rose Strasser. Unlock full access to New York Times podcasts and explore everything from politics to pop culture. Subscribe today at nytimes.com/podcasts [http://nytimes.com/podcasts] or on Apple Podcasts and Spotify.

Trump was losing in the courts. He’s not anymore. In the early months of the administration, the courts were proving a powerful check on President Trump, blocking many of his boldest actions. But those were the lower courts. In the past few months, the Supreme Court has weighed in, and it has handed Trump win after win after win. So what do these decisions enable the president to do? And why is the Supreme Court giving Trump what he wants? To pull all this apart, I’m joined by Kate Shaw. She is a former Supreme Court law clerk, a professor at the University of Pennsylvania Carey Law School and a host of the “Strict Scrutiny [https://crooked.com/podcast-series/strict-scrutiny/]” podcast. Note: This episode was recorded on Aug. 21, before Trump announced his intention to fire Lisa Cook from the Federal Reserve Board of Governors and before Immigration and Customs Enforcement re-arrested Kilmar Armando Abrego Garcia and began processing him for deportation to Uganda. Mentioned: “Don't Believe Him [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K8QLgLfqh6s]” by Ezra Klein “This Is the Presidency John Roberts Has Built [https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2025/07/supreme-court-roberts-trump-dictator/683576/]” by Peter M. Shane Book Recommendations: Lawless [https://www.simonandschuster.com/books/Lawless/Leah-Litman/9781668054628] by Leah Litman Vera, or Faith [https://www.penguinrandomhouse.com/books/717023/vera-or-faith-by-gary-shteyngart/] by Gary Shteyngart We the People [https://wwnorton.com/books/9781631496080] by Jill Lepore Thoughts? Guest suggestions? Email us at ezrakleinshow@nytimes.com. You can find the transcript and more episodes of “The Ezra Klein Show” at nytimes.com/ezra-klein-podcast [https://www.nytimes.com/column/ezra-klein-podcast]. Book recommendations from all our guests are listed at https://www.nytimes.com/article/ezra-klein-show-book-recs.html [https://www.nytimes.com/article/ezra-klein-show-book-recs.html] This episode of “The Ezra Klein Show” was produced by Elias Isquith. Fact-checking by Michelle Harris. Our senior engineer is Jeff Geld. Mixing by Isaac Jones and Aman Sahota. Our executive producer is Claire Gordon. The show’s production team also includes Marie Cascione, Annie Galvin, Rollin Hu, Elias Isquith, Kristin Lin, Jack McCordick, Marina King and Jan Kobal. Original music by Aman Sahota and Pat McCusker. Audience strategy by Kristina Samulewski and Shannon Busta. The director of New York Times Opinion Audio is Annie-Rose Strasser. Special thanks to Josh Chafetz. Unlock full access to New York Times podcasts and explore everything from politics to pop culture. Subscribe today at nytimes.com/podcasts [http://nytimes.com/podcasts] or on Apple Podcasts and Spotify.

ICE now has the biggest budget of any law enforcement agency in America. “ICE and Customs and Border Protection have long been the most rogue, kind of renegade and certainly pro-Trump police agencies in the federal government,” explained Radley Balko, a journalist who’s covered policing for decades. “What I think we are seeing right now is Trump is attempting to build his own paramilitary force. They want people whose first, ultimate loyalty in this job is going to be to the president.” Balko is the author of “Rise of the Warrior Cop: The Militarization of America’s Police Forces.” And he’s been tracking the changes at ICE and the Trump administration’s escalating law-and-order tactics on his excellent newsletter, The Watch [https://radleybalko.substack.com/]. Mentioned: “ICE’s Mind-Bogglingly Massive Blank Check [https://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2025/07/ice-budget-immigration-enforcement/683678/]” by Caitlin Dickerson “The police militarization debate is over [https://radleybalko.substack.com/p/the-police-militarization-debate?r=8xeg]” by Radley Balko Book Recommendations: The Highest Law in the Land [https://www.penguinrandomhouse.com/books/707263/the-highest-law-in-the-land-by-jessica-pishko/] by Jessica Pishko Unruly [https://www.penguinrandomhouse.com/books/742812/unruly-by-david-mitchell/] by David Mitchell Bottoms Up and the Devil Laughs [https://www.penguinrandomhouse.com/books/599267/bottoms-up-and-the-devil-laughs-by-kerry-howley/] by Kerry Howley Thoughts? Guest suggestions? Email us at ezrakleinshow@nytimes.com. You can find the transcript and more episodes of “The Ezra Klein Show” at nytimes.com/ezra-klein-podcast [https://www.nytimes.com/column/ezra-klein-podcast]. Book recommendations from all our guests are listed at https://www.nytimes.com/article/ezra-klein-show-book-recs.html [https://www.nytimes.com/article/ezra-klein-show-book-recs.html] This episode of “The Ezra Klein Show” was produced by Jack McCordick. Fact-checking by Will Peischel. Our senior engineer is Jeff Geld. Mixing by Isaac Jones. Our executive producer is Claire Gordon. The show’s production team also includes Marie Cascione, Annie Galvin, Michelle Harris, Rollin Hu, Elias Isquith, Kristin Lin, Aman Sahota, Marina King and Jan Kobal. Original music by Pat McCusker. Audience strategy by Kristina Samulewski and Shannon Busta. The director of New York Times Opinion Audio is Annie-Rose Strasser. Unlock full access to New York Times podcasts and explore everything from politics to pop culture. Subscribe today at nytimes.com/podcasts [http://nytimes.com/podcasts] or on Apple Podcasts and Spotify.

“Make America Healthy Again” is a great idea — somebody should try it. A lot of the concerns animating the MAHA movement — chronic disease, the unhealthiness of the American diet, how profits warp our health care system — are serious issues. But Robert F. Kennedy Jr. hasn’t taken major actions to address them. Instead he’s gutted funding for scientific research, including nearly $500 million dedicated to mRNA vaccine development, throwing a huge amount of possibly lifesaving research in limbo. How did we get here? What are the politics that allowed Donald Trump to preside over Operation Warp Speed, the single most successful pandemic mitigation policy, and then turn around a few years later to appoint Kennedy to undo it all? My colleague David Wallace-Wells has done incredible reporting on how pandemic policies have shaped our politics, culture and society. Rachael Bedard is a physician and a writer who has been thinking deeply about what MAHA represents and where the movement could find common ground with its critics. Mentioned: “‘I Think He Is About to Destroy Vaccines in This Country’ [https://www.nytimes.com/2025/06/18/opinion/kennedy-vaccine-panel.html]” by David Wallace-Wells “Why Calling RFK Jr. ‘Anti-Science’ Misses the Point [https://nymag.com/intelligencer/article/why-calling-rfk-jr-maha-anti-science-misses-the-point.html]” by Rachael Bedard Book Recommendations: Doppelganger [https://us.macmillan.com/books/9780374610326/doppelganger/] by Naomi Klein The End Doesn’t Happen All at Once [https://www.alephbookcompany.com/book/the-end-doesnt-happen-all-at-once-a-pandemic-memoir/] by Chi Rainer Bornfree and Ragini Tharoor Srinivasan Plagues Upon the Earth [https://press.princeton.edu/books/hardcover/9780691192123/plagues-upon-the-earth?srsltid=AfmBOoq8vAJyFOgG2BH9fe3Re66Yg6gX7zM_yDuvP9kbf-WNGKGCzCZc] by Kyle Harper The Making of the Atomic Bomb [https://www.simonandschuster.com/books/The-Making-of-the-Atomic-Bomb/Richard-Rhodes/9781451677614] by Richard Rhodes Calling the Shots [https://muse.jhu.edu/pub/193/monograph/book/76328] by Jennifer Reich Wave [https://www.penguinrandomhouse.com/books/223103/wave-by-sonali-deraniyagala/] by Sonali Deraniyagala Thoughts? Guest suggestions? Email us at ezrakleinshow@nytimes.com. You can find the transcript and more episodes of “The Ezra Klein Show” at nytimes.com/ezra-klein-podcast [https://www.nytimes.com/column/ezra-klein-podcast]. Book recommendations from all our guests are listed at https://www.nytimes.com/article/ezra-klein-show-book-recs.html [https://www.nytimes.com/article/ezra-klein-show-book-recs.html] This episode of “The Ezra Klein Show” was produced by Annie Galvin and Jack McCordick. Fact-checking by Michelle Harris, with Kate Sinclair and Mary Marge Locker. Our senior engineer is Jeff Geld, with additional mixing by Aman Sahota. Our executive producer is Claire Gordon. The show’s production team also includes Marie Cascione, Rollin Hu, Elias Isquith, Kristin Lin, Marina King and Jan Kobal. Original music by Pat McCusker. Audience strategy by Kristina Samulewski and Shannon Busta. The director of New York Times Opinion Audio is Annie-Rose Strasser. Special thanks to Dr. Sunil Patel and Dr. Andrew Gabrielson. Unlock full access to New York Times podcasts and explore everything from politics to pop culture. Subscribe today at nytimes.com/podcasts [http://nytimes.com/podcasts] or on Apple Podcasts and Spotify.