The Ezra Klein Show

What We Got Right — and Wrong — in ‘Abundance’

“Abundance” came out a little over a year ago. It’s been exciting — and a little disorienting — seeing how it’s rippled out into the world, and the ways it’s been embraced and debated and critiqued. So I wanted to take a moment to talk through what’s really happened in the last year – with Derek Thompson, my “Abundance” co-author, and Marc Dunkelman, whose book “Why Nothing Works” came out around the same time, and circles the same ideas. What has the abundance movement actually achieved in the last year? Where has it fallen short? And what have the three of us learned from our critics? Mentioned: Ezra is moderating a forum on housing and affordability with some of the top California gubernatorial candidates. The event is on Friday, May 8, in Oakland, CA. You can buy tickets here [https://ci.ovationtix.com/36995/production/1272472?performanceId=11795850]. Use the code EKSHOW for 20 percent off your order. Abundance [https://www.simonandschuster.com/books/Abundance/Ezra-Klein/9781668023488] by Ezra Klein and Derek Thompson Why Nothing Works [https://www.hachettebookgroup.com/titles/marc-j-dunkelman/why-nothing-works/9781541700215/] by Marc J. Dunkelman Derek Thompson’s Substack [https://substack.com/@derekthompson] The Power Elite [https://www.cambridge.org/core/journals/american-political-science-review/article/abs/power-elite-by-c-wright-mills-new-york-oxford-university-press-1956-pp-423-600/E3B9F446F210ECCFE2C96E7D2F2B9FA1] by C. Wright Mills The Power Broker [https://www.penguinrandomhouse.com/books/24312/the-power-broker-pulitzer-prize-winner-by-robert-a-caro/] by Robert A. Caro “The Most Expensive Mile of Subway Track on Earth [https://www.nytimes.com/2017/12/28/nyregion/new-york-subway-construction-costs.html]” by Brian M. Rosenthal “Why Are Palantir and OpenAI Scared of Alex Bores? [https://www.nytimes.com/2026/04/21/opinion/ezra-klein-podcast-alex-bores.html]” by The Ezra Klein Show “The Anti-Social Century [https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2025/02/american-loneliness-personality-politics/681091/]” by Derek Thompson Bowling Alone [https://www.simonandschuster.com/books/Bowling-Alone-Revised-and-Updated/Robert-D-Putnam/9781982130848] by Robert D. Putnam The Permanent Problem [https://global.oup.com/academic/product/the-permanent-problem-9780197803967?cc=us&lang=en&] by Brink Lindsey “Bernie Sanders: ‘There Ain’t Much of a Democratic Party [https://www.nytimes.com/2025/11/03/opinion/bernie-sanders-oligarchs-americas-story.html]” by Bernie Sanders and David Leonhardt Book Recommendations: Making a New Deal [https://www.cambridge.org/core/books/making-a-new-deal/2F42D09D61099BD9221F0210415263FB] by Lizabeth Cohen Stuck [https://www.penguinrandomhouse.com/books/700580/stuck-by-yoni-appelbaum/] by Yoni Appelbaum Cadillac Desert [https://www.penguinrandomhouse.com/books/323685/cadillac-desert-by-marc-reisner/] by Marc Reisner Mere Christianity [https://www.harpercollins.com/products/mere-christianity-c-s-lewis?variant=43671532470306] by C. S. Lewis The Secret History [https://www.penguinrandomhouse.com/books/176619/the-secret-history-by-donna-tartt/] by Donna Tartt Blood Meridian by Cormac McCarthy, Narrated by Richard Poe Thoughts? Guest suggestions? Email us at ezrakleinshow@nytimes.com. You can find transcripts (posted midday) and more episodes of “The Ezra Klein Show” at nytimes.com/ezra-klein-podcast [https://www.nytimes.com/column/ezra-klein-podcast], and you can find Ezra on Twitter @ezraklein. Book recommendations from all our guests are listed at https://www.nytimes.com/article/ezra-klein-show-book-recs [https://www.nytimes.com/article/ezra-klein-show-book-recs.html]. This episode of “The Ezra Klein Show” was produced by Annie Galvin. Fact-checking by Michelle Harris, with Annika Robbins and Kate Sinclair. Our senior engineer is Jeff Geld, with additional mixing by Isaac Jones and Aman Sahota. Our recording engineer is Aman Sahota. Our executive producer is Claire Gordon. The show’s production team also includes Marie Cascione, Rollin Hu, Kristin Lin, Emma Kehlbeck, Jack McCordick, Marina King and Jan Kobal. Original music by Pat McCusker. Audience strategy by Shannon Busta and Lauren Reddy. The director of New York Times Opinion Audio is Annie-Rose Strasser. And special thanks to Brianna Johnson. Subscribe today at nytimes.com/podcasts [http://nytimes.com/podcasts] or on Apple Podcasts and Spotify. You can also subscribe via your favorite podcast app here https://www.nytimes.com/activate-access/audio?source=podcatcher [https://www.nytimes.com/activate-access/audio?source=podcatcher]. For more podcasts and narrated articles, download The New York Times app at nytimes.com/app. Hosted by Simplecast, an AdsWizz company. See pcm.adswizz.com [https://pcm.adswizz.com] for information about our collection and use of personal data for advertising.

Stewart Brand, Silicon Valley’s Favorite Prophet, on Life’s Most Important Principle

Stewart Brand might be the most influential philosopher of the internet – at least in its more idealistic era. In the 1960s, Brand was the central bridge figure between the San Francisco counterculture and the emerging technology scene. He created the legendary Trips Festival with Ken Kesey in 1966, and was there at “the mother of all demos” in 1968. And he created and edited the Whole Earth Catalog, which Steve Jobs called “one of the bibles of my generation” and “Google in paperback form, 35 years before Google came along.”  Brand has seen Silicon Valley evolve in the decades since. And along the way, he has written many brilliant books about our relationship to technology, the built environment and the natural world. His latest book is “Maintenance: Of Everything, Part One.”  In this conversation, we discuss everything from dropping acid to the genesis of the Whole Earth Catalog, what he thinks A.I. will reveal about humanity, the 40 years he’s spent living on a tugboat and the importance of maintenance in a culture that prizes novelty and disposability. Mentioned: Ezra is moderating a forum on housing and affordability with some of the top California gubernatorial candidates. The event is on Friday, May 8, in Oakland, CA. You can buy tickets here [https://ci.ovationtix.com/36995/production/1272472?performanceId=11795850]. Use the code EKSHOW for 20 percent off your order. Maintenance: Of Everything, Part One [https://press.stripe.com/maintenance-part-one] by Stewart Brand “We Didn’t Ask for This Internet [https://www.nytimes.com/2026/02/06/opinion/ezra-klein-podcast-doctorow-wu.html]” with Cory Doctorow and Tim Wu, The Ezra Klein Show I And Thou [https://www.simonandschuster.com/books/I-And-Thou/Martin-Buber/9780684717258] by Martin Buber Book Recommendations: The Beginning of Infinity [https://www.penguinrandomhouse.com/books/293575/the-beginning-of-infinity-by-david-deutsch/] by David Deutsch The Perfectionists [https://www.harpercollins.com/products/the-perfectionists-simon-winchester?variant=32128770932770] by Simon Winchester The Scottish Enlightenment [https://harpercollins.co.uk/products/the-scottish-enlightenment-the-scots-invention-of-the-modern-world-arthur-herman?variant=32758526935118] by Arthur Herman Thoughts? Guest suggestions? Email us at ezrakleinshow@nytimes.com. You can find transcripts (posted midday) and more episodes of “The Ezra Klein Show” at nytimes.com/ezra-klein-podcast [https://www.nytimes.com/column/ezra-klein-podcast], and you can find Ezra on Twitter @ezraklein. Book recommendations from all our guests are listed at https://www.nytimes.com/article/ezra-klein-show-book-recs [https://www.nytimes.com/article/ezra-klein-show-book-recs.html]. This episode of “The Ezra Klein Show” was produced by Annie Galvin. Fact-checking by Kelsey Lannin. Our recording engineers are Aman Sahota and Johnny Simon. Our senior engineer is Jeff Geld. Our executive producer is Claire Gordon. The show’s production team also includes Marie Cascione, Michelle Harris, Rollin Hu, Kristin Lin, Emma Kehlbeck, Jack McCordick, Marina King and Jan Kobal. Original music by Pat McCusker. Audience strategy by Kristina Samulewski and Shannon Busta. The director of New York Times Opinion Audio is Annie-Rose Strasser. Special thanks to Fred Turner. Subscribe today at nytimes.com/podcasts [http://nytimes.com/podcasts] or on Apple Podcasts and Spotify. You can also subscribe via your favorite podcast app here https://www.nytimes.com/activate-access/audio?source=podcatcher [https://www.nytimes.com/activate-access/audio?source=podcatcher]. For more podcasts and narrated articles, download The New York Times app at nytimes.com/app. Hosted by Simplecast, an AdsWizz company. See pcm.adswizz.com [https://pcm.adswizz.com] for information about our collection and use of personal data for advertising.

Why Are Palantir and OpenAI Scared of Alex Bores?

Leading the Future, a super PAC whose funders include the founders of companies like Palantir and OpenAI, is spending millions of dollars this election cycle, and a considerable amount of that money is going toward attack ads against Alex Bores – even though Bores himself used to work for Palantir. Bores is a New York state assemblyman who is running for Congress to represent New York’s 12th District. His campaign includes an extensive A.I. policy platform, including demands for A.I. companies to be more transparent about safety, and an idea for an “A.I. dividend” that would redistribute some of the profits of A.I. companies to the public. So his race has turned into a central battleground over the future of the A.I. industry and who has the power to shape it. In this conversation, we discuss how Bores went from working for Palantir to running a campaign that would regulate the A.I. industry, the major issues he thinks A.I. policy needs to address, and his response to the attacks against him. Mentioned: Give People Money [https://www.penguinrandomhouse.com/books/551618/give-people-money-by-annie-lowrey/] by Annie Lowrey “Alex Bores’ AI Policy Framework For Congress [https://www.alexbores.nyc/files/Bores_AI_Framework.pdf]” “NY Congressional Candidate Faced Palantir Sexual Comments Claim [https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2026-02-13/ny-congressional-candidate-faced-palantir-sexual-comments-claim?embedded-checkout=true]” by Laura Nahmias “AI populism’s warning shots [https://jasmi.news/p/warning-shots]” by Jasmine Sun Book Recommendations: A Theory of Justice [https://www.hup.harvard.edu/books/9780674000780] by John Rawls World Eaters [https://www.penguinrandomhouse.com/books/723091/world-eaters-by-catherine-bracy/] by Catherine Bracy Bird by Bird [https://www.penguinrandomhouse.com/books/97395/bird-by-bird-by-anne-lamott/] by Anne Lamott Thoughts? Guest suggestions? Email us at ezrakleinshow@nytimes.com. You can find transcripts (posted midday) and more episodes of “The Ezra Klein Show” at nytimes.com/ezra-klein-podcast [https://www.nytimes.com/column/ezra-klein-podcast], and you can find Ezra on Twitter @ezraklein. Book recommendations from all our guests are listed at https://www.nytimes.com/article/ezra-klein-show-book-recs [https://www.nytimes.com/article/ezra-klein-show-book-recs.html]. This episode of “The Ezra Klein Show” was produced by Annie Galvin. Fact-checking by Lori Segal. Our senior engineer is Jeff Geld, with additional mixing by Aman Sahota [aman.sahota@nytimes.com] and Isaac Jones. Our recording engineer is Aman Sahota. Our executive producer is Claire Gordon. The show’s production team also includes Marie Cascione, Michelle Harris, Rollin Hu, Kristin Lin, Emma Kehlbeck, Jack McCordick, Marina King and Jan Kobal. Original music by Pat McCusker. Audience strategy by Shannon Busta and Lauren Reddy. The director of New York Times Opinion Audio is Annie-Rose Strasser. And special thanks to Gregory C. Allen. Subscribe today at nytimes.com/podcasts [http://nytimes.com/podcasts] or on Apple Podcasts and Spotify. You can also subscribe via your favorite podcast app here https://www.nytimes.com/activate-access/audio?source=podcatcher [https://www.nytimes.com/activate-access/audio?source=podcatcher]. For more podcasts and narrated articles, download The New York Times app at nytimes.com/app. Hosted by Simplecast, an AdsWizz company. See pcm.adswizz.com [https://pcm.adswizz.com] for information about our collection and use of personal data for advertising.

Our Tax System Should Make You Furious

Jeff Bezos, Michael Bloomberg and Warren Buffett are three of the richest people in the world, but they pay little in income tax relative to their wealth. In 2021, ProPublica published an investigation [https://www.propublica.org/article/the-secret-irs-files-trove-of-never-before-seen-records-reveal-how-the-wealthiest-avoid-income-tax] built on leaked tax documents that reveal what some of the richest Americans really pay — or don’t. Warren Buffett had a true tax rate of 0.1 percent. Jeff Bezos: 0.98 percent. Michael Bloomberg: 1.3 percent. Ultra-wealthy Americans have essentially been written out of the tax system. “It’s wrong as a matter of principle. It’s wrong because we need their money. It’s wrong as a matter of fairness. It is wrong for so many reasons,” the law professor Ray Madoff told me. She’s the author of the new book “The Second Estate: How the Tax Code Made an American Aristocracy,” and she’s interested in helping people understand how broken the American tax system is and how to fix it. In this conversation, we discuss the techniques the ultra-wealthy use to evade the tax system, why they think “salaries are for suckers” and what tax reform could look like. Mentioned: “The Secret IRS Files: Trove of Never-Before-Seen Records Reveal How the Wealthiest Avoid Income Tax [https://www.propublica.org/article/the-secret-irs-files-trove-of-never-before-seen-records-reveal-how-the-wealthiest-avoid-income-tax]” by Jesse Eisinger, Jeff Ernsthausen and Paul Kiel The Second Estate [https://press.uchicago.edu/ucp/books/book/chicago/S/bo256019296.html] by Ray D. Madoff Taxation: The People’s Business by Andrew W. Mellon Philanthrocapitalism [https://www.bloomsbury.com/us/philanthrocapitalism-9781608192434/] by Matthew Bishop and Michael Green Book Recommendations: The Age of Extraction [https://www.penguinrandomhouse.com/books/691177/the-age-of-extraction-by-tim-wu/] by Tim Wu The Rise and Fall of the Neoliberal Order [https://global.oup.com/academic/product/the-rise-and-fall-of-the-neoliberal-order-9780197519646?cc=us&lang=en&] by Gary Gerstle Crossroads [https://us.macmillan.com/books/9780374181178/crossroads/] by Jonathan Franzen Thoughts? Guest suggestions? Email us at ezrakleinshow@nytimes.com. You can find transcripts (posted midday) and more episodes of “The Ezra Klein Show” at nytimes.com/ezra-klein-podcast [https://www.nytimes.com/column/ezra-klein-podcast], and you can find Ezra on Twitter @ezraklein. Book recommendations from all our guests are listed at https://www.nytimes.com/article/ezra-klein-show-book-recs [https://www.nytimes.com/article/ezra-klein-show-book-recs.html]. This episode of “The Ezra Klein Show” was produced by Rollin Hu. Fact-checking by Michelle Harris. Our senior engineer is Jeff Geld, with additional mixing by Aman Sahota. Our recording engineer is Aman Sahota. Our executive producer is Claire Gordon. The show’s production team also includes Marie Cascione, Annie Galvin, Kristin Lin, Emma Kehlbeck, Jack McCordick, Marina King and Jan Kobal. Original music by Pat McCusker. Audience strategy by Shannon Busta and Lauren Reddy. The director of New York Times Opinion Audio is Annie-Rose Strasser. And special thanks to Edward Fox. Subscribe today at nytimes.com/podcasts [http://nytimes.com/podcasts] or on Apple Podcasts and Spotify. You can also subscribe via your favorite podcast app here https://www.nytimes.com/activate-access/audio?source=podcatcher [https://www.nytimes.com/activate-access/audio?source=podcatcher]. For more podcasts and narrated articles, download The New York Times app at nytimes.com/app. Hosted by Simplecast, an AdsWizz company. See pcm.adswizz.com [https://pcm.adswizz.com] for information about our collection and use of personal data for advertising.

Reckoning With Israel’s ‘One-State Reality’

For decades, most discussions of Israel and Palestine were framed around the eventual creation of a two-state solution. That effort has been dead for years. What has emerged in its place is what the political scientists Marc Lynch and Shibley Telhami call the “one-state reality.” Their book on this — edited with Michael Barnett and Nathan Brown — came out before Oct. 7, 2023. Since Oct. 7, that reality has become further entrenched: There’s been a record pace of settlement construction in the West Bank. Israel now occupies more than half the territory of Gaza. And Israel’s push into Lebanon has displaced more than a million people. So what does it mean to reckon with Israel’s one-state reality — to see the facts on the ground rather than the frames of the past? Shibley Telhami is the Anwar Sadat professor for peace and development at the University of Maryland, College Park. Marc Lynch is the director of the Project on Middle East Political Science at George Washington University. Lynch is the author, most recently, of “America’s Middle East: The Ruination of a Region.” Mentioned: “Israel’s One-State Reality [https://www.foreignaffairs.com/middle-east/israel-palestine-one-state-solution]” by Michael Barnett, Nathan Brown, Marc Lynch, and Shibley Telhami The One State Reality [https://www.cornellpress.cornell.edu/book/9781501768392/the-one-state-reality/] by Michael Barnett, Nathan J. Brown, Marc Lynch and Shibley Telhami Israel’s Religiously Divided Society [https://www.pewresearch.org/religion/2016/03/08/israels-religiously-divided-society/], Pew Research Center Summary of a Year of Terror, Expulsion, and Annexation — 2025 in the Settlements [https://peacenow.org.il/en/summary-of-2025-in-settlements], Peace Now Book Recommendations: Justice for Some [https://www.sup.org/books/middle-east-studies/justice-some] by Noura Erakat Wars of Ambition [https://global.oup.com/academic/product/wars-of-ambition-9780190940980?cc=us&lang=en&] by Afshon Ostovar The Second Emancipation [https://wwnorton.com/books/9781324092452] by Howard W. French Mayors in the Middle [https://cup.columbia.edu/book/mayors-in-the-middle/9780231559744/] by Diana B. Greenwald Israel [https://us.macmillan.com/books/9781250436184/israel/] by Omer Bartov Tomorrow Is Yesterday [https://us.macmillan.com/books/9781250417763/tomorrowisyesterday/?utm_term=&utm_campaign=&utm_source=adwords&utm_medium=ppc&hsa_acc=4166076657&hsa_cam=23725453423&hsa_grp=&hsa_ad=&hsa_src=x&hsa_tgt=&hsa_kw=&hsa_mt=&hsa_net=adwords&hsa_ver=3&gad_source=1&gad_campaignid=23734495872&gbraid=0AAAAADuQFYiP4FekxQOVIBJpf0Svt5n68&gclid=Cj0KCQjwqPLOBhCiARIsAKRMPZo61IoEIicre0s20EJSZDH_khVReDGquDuUcSsWaUvp2jgJGs1hYy0aAl1IEALw_wcB] by Hussein Agha and Robert Malley Thoughts? Guest suggestions? Email us at ezrakleinshow@nytimes.com. You can find transcripts (posted midday) and more episodes of “The Ezra Klein Show” at nytimes.com/ezra-klein-podcast [https://www.nytimes.com/column/ezra-klein-podcast], and you can find Ezra on Twitter @ezraklein. Book recommendations from all our guests are listed at https://www.nytimes.com/article/ezra-klein-show-book-recs [https://www.nytimes.com/article/ezra-klein-show-book-recs.html]. This episode of “The Ezra Klein Show” was produced by Jack McCordick. Fact-checking by Michelle Harris with Kate Sinclair and Mary Marge Locker. Our senior engineer is Jeff Geld, with additional mixing by Aman Sahota. Our recording engineer is Aman Sahota. Our executive producer is Claire Gordon. The show’s production team also includes Marie Cascione, Annie Galvin, Rollin Hu, Kristin Lin, Emma Kehlbeck, Marina King and Jan Kobal. Original music by Pat McCusker. Audience strategy by Kristina Samulewski and Shannon Busta. The director of New York Times Opinion Audio is Annie-Rose Strasser. And special thanks to Mark Mazzetti. Subscribe today at nytimes.com/podcasts [http://nytimes.com/podcasts] or on Apple Podcasts and Spotify. You can also subscribe via your favorite podcast app here https://www.nytimes.com/activate-access/audio?source=podcatcher [https://www.nytimes.com/activate-access/audio?source=podcatcher]. For more podcasts and narrated articles, download The New York Times app at nytimes.com/app. Hosted by Simplecast, an AdsWizz company. See pcm.adswizz.com [https://pcm.adswizz.com] for information about our collection and use of personal data for advertising.