Two Veils | Brent L. Top on Pre-Mortality, the Spirit World & the Power of Temple Covenants (LDS)

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What if understanding both sides of the veil — pre-mortal and post-mortal — is the key to making sense of mortality? Brent L. Top, retired BYU professor, author of more than 20 books, and sealer in the St. George Temple, returns to the podcast to teach two revolutionary doctrines of the Restoration: first, that we are literal offspring of heavenly parents with what he calls "celestial DNA" — spiritual capacities activated and refined by the Holy Ghost as we live the gospel; and second, that the work for the dead means every one of Heavenly Father's children will be given every opportunity to hear the fullness of the gospel and receive its ordinances, whether in this life or the next. "All are within the reach of pardoning mercy," Joseph Smith taught — a doctrine that, as Brother Top says, "is well calculated to enlarge the understanding and sustain the soul under troubles, difficulties, and distresses." Drawing on the three-act-play metaphor of Elder Quentin L. Cook, he teaches that walking into mortality without understanding pre-mortality and post-mortality is like arriving at the second act of a play with no knowledge of the first or third — and that the plan of salvation, when seen whole, answers the questions that otherwise make life seem arbitrary or cruel: why little children die, why people are born into vastly different circumstances, why faithful parents lose children to disbelief. As a sealer, he shares the deeply personal insight he calls "the as-if principle": in the sealing ordinance, through the Atonement of Jesus Christ, all the as-ifs of mortality — all wrongs, all handicaps, all injustices — are made as if they had never been. He testifies that sealing power is not only for the next life: it infuses marriages and families with a reclaiming, healing, strengthening power right now. President Joseph F. Smith taught that when God sends a messenger to any person, it is a family member — and Brother Top's witness is that those on both sides of the veil are working for our salvation, that our rescue attempts go beyond this life, and that the story is never finished being told. Q: What are the "two veils" in LDS doctrine? A: There is a veil of forgetfulness separating us from our pre-mortal life, and a veil separating us from those who have died. Brent L. Top teaches that both are veils, not concrete walls — and that understanding what happens on each side is essential to making sense of mortality. Elder Quentin L. Cook compared the plan of salvation to a three-act play: without the first act (pre-mortality) and the third act (the spirit world and resurrection), the second act (mortality) seems arbitrary and purposeless. Q: What is the "as if" principle in the temple sealing? A: In the sealing of children to parents, a phrase declares that the ordinance operates "as if" certain conditions had been met. Brother Top, a sealer in the St. George Temple, teaches that it is the Savior who makes all the "as ifs" of mortality possible: through the Atonement, a sinner can be made as if they never sinned, a person born with disabilities can be made as if those had never existed. The sealing links families to the Atonement of Jesus Christ so that all wrongs, injustices, and conditions of mortality are ultimately resolved. Q: Does the power of a temple sealing help families in this life, or only in the next? A: Both — and Brother Top emphasizes the "here and now" dimension. He teaches that sealing power infuses marriages and families with a reclaiming, healing, strengthening power in mortality: "Why I keep my covenants is not just so that I can be with my beloved wife and family in the next life, but that I can have the marriage and family I need in this life." He compares it to the gift of the Holy Ghost — the ordinance confers a power that those without it "don't have quite the same way." Q: When God sends a messenger, is it always a family member? A: President Joseph F. Smith taught that when God sees fit to send a message or a messenger to any person, it is a family member. Brother Top connects this to both veils: we have ancestors who knew us in the pre-mortal world, who are watching over us now from the spirit world, and who are — in his words — "rooting for us" from both sides. He shares Oscar McConkie Sr.'s final words to his children: "I am going now into the spirit world, but I will not stop loving you. I will not stop praying for you. I will not stop working for your salvation." ▶️ WATCH & LISTEN 🎬 YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/@thinningoftheveil 🌐 Website: https://www.thinningoftheveil.com 🎧 Apple Podcasts: https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/thinning-of-the-veil/id1753511394 🟢 Spotify: https://open.spotify.com/show/6jWCfMHkZXwnSwy2b98J4M 🎵 Amazon Music: https://music.amazon.com/podcasts/a0a45561-d4c2-46d3-af8d-a1e967a21a25 📖 BOOK Patterns of Revelation — Spiritual Foundations for Hearing God's Voice: https://www.amazon.com/dp/B0BW36MG9B 📱 CONNECT Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/thinning.of.the.veil Facebook Group (Gathering of the Gatherers): https://www.facebook.com/groups/1429562078443774 Facebook Page: https://www.facebook.com/thinningoftheveil 💛 SUPPORT THE SHOW Venmo: https://account.venmo.com/u/thinningoftheveil PayPal: Support the show [https://www.buzzsprout.com/2368946/support]

Spiritual Manifestations in the Life of a Kiwi | Dreams, Visions & Temple Service — Kirsten Ngatuakana (LDS)

What if thinning of the veil experiences weren't unusual — but a normal part of how you grew up? Kirsten Ngatuakana (née Smith) is a New Zealand Māori Latter-day Saint who didn't realize until adulthood that others *didn't* grow up hearing about ancestors' dreams and visions at the dinner table. In this interview, she shares a lifetime of spiritual manifestations — from seeing a girl beyond the veil at age four in the Cook Islands, to her father-in-law appearing in a dream to approve her marriage (saying "Look after my boy" — the exact phrase her husband confirmed he used), to her grandfather appearing to her in the celestial room of the Hamilton Temple and asking her to seal him to her grandmother. Kirsten testifies of the unique spiritual gifts of Polynesian people, whose cultural traditions of ancestral connection prepared them to embrace the gospel from the earliest missionaries: "When missionaries came, the Māori were already having visions and dreams. They were ready." Her temple service journey deepened when the Lord told her, "There is so much more I need to teach you" — leading her from family history research into daily service in the temple, where she witnesses miracles: a mother finally choosing to be sealed to the husband she once hated, for the sake of their son; families surprised with sealings they didn't know were possible; and the day she was asked to stand as proxy mother for nine men doing sealings — the very day her own heart was heavy over her sons' mission visas — and heard mothers on the other side of the veil, and saw them with their sons. She also shares a powerful revelatory name experience: after praying for weeks, the name "Annabelle" came in the night. Line upon line, the last name followed — Brown. On FamilySearch, she found Bessie Annabelle Brown, born in Los Angeles, related to her family, with no ordinance work done. At the completion of Bessie's endowment, Kirsten heard clearly: "Thank you, thank you, thank you." "I didn't realize others didn't have it until later. For us, this was normal. Dreams, visions — this was how we grew up." — Kirsten Ngatuakana Q: Do Polynesian Latter-day Saints have special spiritual gifts? A: Kirsten testifies that in Polynesian culture, dreams, visions, and ancestral connection are a normal part of life — not extraordinary. "I didn't realize others didn't have it until later." Her mother, a convert at 18, grew up hearing her own mother (not a member of the Church) speak of dreams and visions. When early missionaries came to New Zealand, many Māori people were already having visions that prepared them for the gospel — including seeing people who would "eat with you in your homes" and "raise their arms to the square." Q: Can I receive an ancestor's name through prayer and revelation? A: Yes — Kirsten prayed for weeks for a name after hearing about the practice on this podcast. In the night, the name "Annabelle" came to her, with a specific spelling. Weeks later, the last name "Brown" came clearly. She found Bessie Annabelle Brown on FamilySearch — a relative with no temple work done. At the completion of the endowment, Kirsten heard: "Thank you, thank you, thank you." She later connected with a researcher in Colorado working the same line, and testified to him about receiving the name in a dream — something he had never heard of. Q: Can deceased loved ones appear in dreams to confirm family decisions? A: Kirsten shares two experiences: her husband's deceased father appeared in his mother's dream to confirm their marriage — after her husband had specifically prayed for it. And her grandfather appeared to her in the celestial room of the Hamilton Temple and asked her to seal him to her grandmother — work Kirsten's mother had not yet arranged. Both prompted immediate action and brought peace. Q: How does temple service change your relationship with the Savior? A: Kirsten testifies that daily temple service has deepened her love for Christ by teaching her about Him through the people she serves. On a day her heart was heavy over her own sons, she was asked to stand as proxy mother for nine men doing sealings — and saw the mothers on the other side of the veil with their sons. "Who cares about some stupid visa? This is eternal, significant stuff." She adds: "A friend said to me, 'It wasn't as hard as I thought it would be.' She goes, 'That's because you go to the temple every day.'" 📚 SOURCES REFERENCED IN THIS EPISODE Elder Richard G. Scott on claiming "both parts of the blessing" Elder Anderson on the law of witnesses (BYU-Idaho) Elder Renlund on sealing and healing power ▶️ WATCH & LISTEN 🎬 YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/@thinningoftheveil 🌐 Website: https://www.thinningoftheveil.com 🎧 Apple Podcasts: https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/thinning-of-the-veil/id1753511394 🟢 Spotify: https://open.spotify.com/show/6jWCfMHkZXwnSwy2b98J4M 🎵 Amazon Music: https://music.amazon.com/podcasts/a0a45561-d4c2-46d3-af8d-a1e967a21a25 📖 BOOK Patterns of Revelation — Spiritual Foundations for Hearing God's Voice: https://www.amazon.com/dp/B0BW36MG9B 📱 CONNECT Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/thinning.of.the.veil Facebook Group (Gathering of the Gatherers): https://www.facebook.com/groups/1429562078443774 Facebook Page: https://www.facebook.com/thinningoftheveil 💛 SUPPORT THE SHOW Venmo: https://account.venmo.com/u/thinningoftheveil PayPal: https://paypal.me/thinningoftheveil ✉️ Have you had a thinning of the veil experience? Email tia@thinningoftheveil.com — your testimony may be exactly what someone Support the show [https://www.buzzsprout.com/2368946/support]

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Two Veils | Brent L. Top on Pre-Mortality, the Spirit World & the Power of Temple Covenants (LDS)

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