Behind the Scenery

Ed Kabotie is an artist, musician, and educator from the Hopi village of Shungopavi and the Tewa village of Santa Clara. Join us on this episode of Behind the Scenery and hear Ed discuss his work, his connection to the Grand Canyon, and the messaging in his music. You can find his work on YouTube, Instagram, and Facebook. --- TRANSCRIPT: --- [Flute Music] ALICIA: That was Ed Kabotie playing the flute here on the North Rim of the Grand Canyon. My name is Alicia and I’m a ranger here at Grand Canyon National Park. In early September 2024, I had the opportunity to sit down with Ed and talk about his work as an artist, musician, and educator. We sat on a picnic table outside of the cabin where he stayed, surrounded by late-season wildflowers and towering ponderosa pines. In this episode, you'll hear some occasional noise from the wind. If you listen closely, you might also hear birds chirping and the sound of pinecones dropping from the ponderosas around us. Thanks for joining us today. ALICIA: Really grateful that you came out to the park today, so thank you so much for being here. ED: Yeah, absolutely. I'm so grateful. Yeah. Love this place. Super beautiful today. Love to hear the pinecones dropping all over the place. ALICIA: Yeah. So, Ed you're a multifaceted creative, right, a multi-talented artist. You're a musician, an educator, and I know you have a family history in art, too. So can you tell us a little bit about your background as an artist and how it connects with your work today. ED: Wow, that's a big question. When I, when I hear the reference to family, I think back to my grandfather, you know? So my great grandfather, Lolomayaoma was arrested in 1906 for refusing to send my grandfather to school. He was six years old at the time. This was a, you know, boarding school in Pennsylvania. So I mean, 1000 miles away, kill the Indian, save the man. Of course he resisted, you know, and he was put in prison for his resistance. My grandfather actually ran away from school till he was 15 and then he was sent to Santa Fe Indian School, which is the same boarding school I graduated from, as well. But Santa Fe Indian School has an interesting history of its own type of renegade resistance. You know, Dorothy Dunn-style studio art, well known in Indian art that comes later. My grandfather was there during the DeHuff administration and Principal, or Superintendent, rather, DeHuff was demoted from the Indian Service because he and his wife were encouraging, you know, the children in their culture rather than, you know, trying to extinguish it. My grandfather was singled out along with two other artists, Otis from Shongopovi and then Velino Shije from Zia Pueblo and those three as vocational training were actually given exposure to techniques in art, and so my grandfather began a journey there. He's kind of a world-renowned kind of guy. You know, he's known at the Grand Canyon for the Watchtower murals, which were done in 1932. That's not typically his style, you know, he went, he reverted to kind of an ancient style of art with the watchtower murals. His art journey is just incredible. He was a Guggenheim Fellow, and he also was instrumental in the development of the overlay techniques in Hopi. He spearheaded the development of the Guild, which trained silversmiths, 60s, 70s, 80s in Hopi. He was very involved with the establishment of the Hopi Cultural Center as well, so. He was a U.S. ambassador to India, you know, Goodwill Ambassador, Agricultural Summit. He was commissioned by Mrs. Roosevelt to do a piece of work when she visited him at the Peabody Museum at Harvard during one of their openings. It's a really remarkable journey that he had. I, I never knew him as an artist. I knew him as a hard-ass Hopi farmer, you know? But my father was, of course, very engaged in art, as well. And so I'm a third-generation artist. My father, I would say, is probably my biggest inspiration, kind of in an abstract way. I mean, I think my dad did not want to follow in his father's footsteps. I don't want to follow in my dad's footsteps. I think we all try to be very distinct in our journeys. But there's that process of osmosis that takes place when you're in an artist's home and you know the work is being done. You know, I can hear my dad's saw blade going, you know, as he would make jewelry, singing songs, listening to songs, humming kachina songs, you know, just as he would work. You know? So it was a it was a very, very special atmosphere and I think that nurtured me in my work. There's a number of things that brought me to the place. In my own personal expression, music and art have played a big part of my journey, and music tends to be my forte not necessarily by choice. I love, I love the serenity of creating visual art. There's something about it that I have to be in a good place to do it and it's something that I long for to be in places like this, honestly, this is this is where I generate artwork. ALICIA: Yeah. I wanted to ask where you where you draw inspiration for your songwriting, which I guess is you said places like this. Where else do you do you draw inspiration for your your art and your music? ED: I draw inspiration from indigenous history. I draw inspiration from my culture. I draw inspiration from a lot of the negative that I see around me in the history of my people, in our relationship with the United States government, you know both past and present. So I think sometimes people refer to me as an activist, which I, I tend to resist that concept because I feel like an activist is active, you know? I mean, my vibe is like, yo, we all just need to slow down. You know, we, we need to come to a place where we can be in spaces like this to listen to the rhythm of nature, how it connects with the rhythm of our spirit. And find a way to think consciously again. You know, if I feel like that's, the biggest problems that we have in this world are, they need a spiritual solution. And I hope that somehow through my art and music, I'm able to elevate my thinking and hopefully maybe other people's thinking at the same time about conscious thought regarding environmental social justice issues on the Colorado Plateau, Grand Canyon Region, and also in the world in general. ALICIA: When you look back at your time that you've been creating music or creating art, do you think your, your style has changed? Maybe the content of your music or the style of your music, or? ED: Absolutely. I mean, in regards to music I feel like my journey as a musician started in my home communities. I feel like everybody's a musician where I come from; from the time you're a child, you know, everybody's introduced to song, everybody's introduced to dance as a form of prayer, and as a form of interacting with the universe. And that also crosses over to visual art, as well. I was exposed to rock music via a Native American band called XIT, X-I-T, who was on Motown Records like between 1970 and 1972, and they put out a couple of amazing albums, one called Plight of the Redman, one called Silent Warrior, and they were very aggressive in their message. I, I mean think back what was happening in Native America in 1970, 1972 that's the takeover of Alcatraz, that's the takeover of Wounded Knee. That's the American Indian Movement, you know, taking over BIA offices in Washington, I mean, all of that was kind of expressed in the spirit of their music. When I got into boarding school, I you know, metal was kind of communicating to me and a lot of us because I think, as third generation boarding school students, we were all pretty pissed off, you know? And it made a lot of sense. When I, when I heard reggae, I recognized that reggae was like very angry music, you know? And I'm talking about Jamaican reggae, Bob Marley, Peter Tosh, Bunny Wailer, you know, those old school guys. And their message was very aggressive as well, a cry for justice for 400 years of oppression. And sometimes when I would listen to the music of Bob Marley, it would just feel like he was singing about me, you know? I got homesick after living off the reservation some years down the road after high school. I was a drummer in music originally, that's kind of my passion, but I always kind of continued carrying a guitar. I left music just because it was difficult for me separate some of the dysfunctional things that follow rock'n'roll, you know? And I started a family very young, so, you know, I, I felt like it was wise for me to put away, you know, the drum kit. But of course, you know, it's you can't, you can't keep music out of your brain, you know, or out of your heart when it's there. And, you know, I'm always tapping on everything and, you know, fiddling with guitar. And out of homesickness, I began to sing more traditional style melodies in Hopi and Tewa and translate it into guitar. That's the way my original music started. You know, the original recordings of original music and it was very history-focused. I thought a lot about my kids. I thought a lot about youth growing up on the reservations. You know, I wanted them to hear their music. I wanted to them hear, for them to hear stories about their heroes, you know? And that's kind of the way it took off. I got arrested in Coconino County for marijuana possession. You know, at a at a time that that the state of Arizona was like, very aggressively against it, right? And so like, for less than a gram of marijuana. I was. I was charged with felony possession, felony paraphernalia, blah blah la la la. When I got arrested, you know, I, you know, I heard I've heard about my people talking about being careful about border towns all my life. I never had a problem personally until then. You know, and now I'm in jail, facing prison time, and I'm looking at everybody else who's in jail and we're looking like 80% Native American. And today in Flagstaff, and this is not my statistics, this is statistics coming from the Flagstaff Police Department, they consistently over the last decade every year annually arrest about 50% of their arrests are of Native American people. Native Americans make up 8% of the population of Flagstaff. You know, so something's haywire, right? And my music changed. You know, I adapted more of a reggae style and began to cry out against not only what I was experiencing, you know, on the opposite side of the law, but also the environmental issues. 45 billion gallons of water sucked up from underneath Hopi in the Kayenta mine, during the slurry operation of the Kayenta mine, where we were initially paid 3.3% for the market value of coal and $1.67 cents for every 326,000 gallons of water. A 300-year water supply just gone in 35 years, and so what we're left with today is arsenic-contaminated water systems in Hopi. You know, if you have running water in Hopi you can't drink what comes out of a faucet. And that's if you have running water. Sitting in the jail cell, you know, you kind of start recognizing disparity. Playing and living on the street, you kind of, you kind of look at the lifestyle of the people around you and compare it to, you know, what your experience is. And I wouldn't trade my life for anything. I wouldn't trade my upbringing or the place that I choose to live for anything. Right? But you recognize what's happening? You know, 500 to 1000 open pit uranium mines on Navajo Nation, leftover from the Cold War. We kicked out the Havasupai nation in 1918 from the Grand Canyon region so that we could establish the National Park. And now that we've stuck them into a side canyon and restricted them to that place, now we've built a uranium mine on top of the Muav Aquifer that gives and provides water for them, you know, and we're transporting this radioactive ore from the Grand Canyon through the already-impacted communities of Navajo Nation on up to yet another reservation, or the only operating uranium mill in the United States which neighbors the Ute Mountain Ute or the Ute Nation in Utah, you know so. It's crazy, you know, we hear about Flint, MI, why don't we hear about Hopi, you know? We heard we hear about, you know, the tragic uranium tragedies overseas or in New York, you know, but we don't hear, we don't hear about the largest spill, you know, uranium accident in North America, which is on Navajo Nation, you know? It's, this became the cry of my music and the band Tha’ Yoties was formed, you know, short for coyotes, because we're howling for the people and lands of the Colorado Plateau. ALICIA: What do you want to convey? How do you decide what messages you want to share through your music? ED: I mean, that's not a decision I make, you know? I mean, I feel like, I feel like my business plan is often feeling the current of the river or feeling the movement of the wind, so to speak metaphorically, you know, I mean it's, it's like where and how the great Spirit is leading, you know? And yeah, I mean we are currently doing what we can to bring awareness to the situation of the Havasupai, we've been working on that pretty heavily this year. Rumble on the Mountain is an annual show that we do in Flagstaff, which is about, you know, a 4 to 6 hour show where we bring in Native speakers to talk about our issues, you know, not to have somebody else tell our stories, which is kind of typical. But you know, now we're going to tell you our stories our way, right? And we bring in traditional dance groups, traditional musicians, scholars, activists, contemporary bands, and we, through edutainment, a phrase I stole from Walt Disney, part education and part entertainment, right, we try to convey a message to the community. And to, again, howl for the people and lands of the Colorado Plateau. We were invited by the Supai down to the village earlier this year, where we performed for the community, which was a real blessing to us. We shared a song there called "War”, and it's a song that was composed a few years ago about the Supai, because to me they're this tiny little tribe, but they've been teaching all of the rest of us in Northern Arizona how to fight. And they've been very strategic and shrewd. I mean, so much so that now we have the President of the United States last year coming out to designate the Baaj Nwaavjo I’tah Kukveni, Greater Grand Canyon Monument, you know, I mean, that's, that's an amazing thing and last year as well in the fall, we took a delegation of Hopi and Supai out to Washington, DC, where we did some lobbying out there. But we performed the show at the Smithsonian, Native voices of the Grand Canyon again, in an effort to raise awareness of what's taking place. We did a big show in Tuba City this year that we called uprising that was on Pueblo Revolt Day, the 344th anniversary of the Pueblo Revolt in Tuba City, again that's right along the haul route. And so that's kind of our focus. The song “War” is meant to recognize that we're still in a war, you know? I mean, it hasn't stopped for us in Northern Arizona. You know, we, national spotlight was given to the disparity that we live in compared to the communities around us during the pandemic, you know? We had a lot of national focus talking about how far people needed to drive to get simple medical attention or to get adequate nourishment AKA a grocery store or a hospital, you know? And to me, we have those moments of awakening in this country. You know, we had the civil rights movement, you know. But we tend to lapse again and can kind of forget about those things. I feel like the murder of George Floyd kind of shook the country up, the pandemic kind of shook the country up, where again we said, “aha,” you know, and somehow connected with our national conscience. But it's also so easy for us to forget. And we don't want people to forget. So this song says “Havasupai Nation leading in the fight. Conscious hearts and minds unite, Havasuw `Baaja, your story we heed. Beware of corporate corruption and greed. It's a warning. It's a distant early warning because we're in a global crisis. We're living heartless, mindless. Mankind’s left up to his selfish devices. It's a war.” And it's not a war against institutions. I mean, I guess in a way it is because it's, it's a war against philosophies, isms and schisms. Again, the pandemic I feel like introduced us to the term systemic racism, which is what we've been talking about for years, but never really had a term that the country could sink its teeth into. You know, I feel I feel like now we do. And honestly, I personally feel like Grand Canyon National Park with the millions of visitors that come to the park every year, this is where people need to hear about it, you know? This is where it's all happening. At the same time, it's where things tend to be out of sight, out of mind for us. ALICIA: When people come to the Grand Canyon, what do you want them to come away with? You know, you talk about this being the spot for them to be getting that information. So is there something that you hope that people leave the Grand Canyon with when they when they come to visit? ED: Absolutely. I, I do feel like the Grand Canyon is a place where people come and their hearts are impacted, you know, I mean it's, it’s, yeah there's the National Lampoon's Vacation, where you come and you just kind of glance at it and blaze off. You know what I mean? I suppose that happens. But I also feel like, you know, people are deeply impacted, you know, when they take the time to appreciate. I think the park and the Harvey Company, before, you know, I feel like have been very selective in the stories that they tell about Native America, you know? And I feel like it's, there's been an atmosphere in the park since the pandemic, you know, that Native voices need to come to the forefront. I'm in full support of that, you know, and what I would hope that when visitors come that they would see us flesh and blood. That they would be educated about the Kayenta Mine, that they would be educated about the most endangered river in North America, the Colorado River, the water situation in Hopi, the water situation in Supai, the water situation in Navajo, you know? Get an understanding of what's taking place here because, I mean, the preservation of resources in the Grand Canyon is more than the natural resources that are here. It's more than the water, it's more than the animals, it's more than the wildlife. It's also the people. And somehow we've communicated everything else, but we haven't talked about the people, you know? Right now here at Grand Canyon National Park, Desert View is being designated as a as a cultural spot. And I'm like, yo, just don't make that a reservation. You know what I mean? Like, I mean, let that become the heartbeat, then let it permeate throughout the park, throughout the park system, throughout, throughout the National Park system, right? Metaphorically, Desert View has the watchtower, right? And what is the purpose of a watchtower? You know, I mean it's it's to create a beacon, you know, a guiding point, for us, an overlook. And to me that's, that's what the potential is, you know, for the voices, the native voices of the Grand Canyon. If we could utilize the platform here, to share our burdens with the world, I think, you know, that would be tremendous. I mean that's, that's the big step in change is just communication of stories. ALICIA: Mm-hmm. Yeah. ED: Through podcasts in this day and age. ALICIA: Through podcasts, yeah! You talked about your work being really, I mean, just so deeply connected to like the landscape here and the people in Northern Arizona. And can you tell me a little bit about your connection to the land, or to the land in the Grand Canyon, you know, how you feel when you're here? ED: Yeah, that's a really great question, as well. Difficult to answer in a way. In a Judeo-Christian paradigm, human life begins at the Garden of Eden, somewhere in Mesopotamia. In the scientific version of how the human race begins, you know, currently it sounds like it's Africa. That's where those perspectives lead us, right? But in a Hopi perspective, human life begins at the Grand Canyon. You know, this is the emergence place, this is the womb of Mother Earth. This is, this is the place that the human race begins and spreads out into the Earth. That paradigm comes from a very close, intimate relationship with the Grand Canyon to Hopi people. We refer to the Grand Canyon as Öngtupqa, which means “salt canyon”. Often hear the term paatuwaqatsi, “water is life”, and, you know, we relate to that term. In an ancient society you need to recognize also: salt is life. You know, salt is vital: to our health, as a trade commodity, you know? And there's two pristine sources of salt in the Pueblo area southwest and that’s one is Zuni Salt Lake and the other is the Grand Canyon. So the Grand Canyon becomes a very important place in intertribal relationship. And it also becomes much more than that. A place of beginnings, and also a place where the soul returns to make its journey home. So the Grand Canyon is not really looked upon as a recreational place in our culture. You know, it's looked upon as a place of very high sacred significance, but attached to that is a very strong element of fear, as well. You know, the, the spirits that occupy the Canyon, that live in the Canyon, they're important and significant in the way we interact. And how we show our respects to the great spirit is probably more expressed in our relationship to the Canyon than many other elements, you know in, in our perspective. Yeah, hard to explain, hard to explain, but I'm taking a stab. When I come to the Grand Canyon personally, this is the way I feel. You know, it's, it's a place of wonder. It's a place of fear. It's a place of reverence. You know, when I visit the Canyon, you know, first thing I want to do is speak to the river, speak to the Canyon, let everything know I'm here and that I'm coming with the good heart, you know, and of course, that does involve, you know, some introspection here. So I feel like this place rejuvenates me, though, for those reasons. ALICIA: Thank you for, for sharing. I know you, you have done a lot of songwriting, and I know you've performed solo quite a bit and also with your band, Tha ‘Yoties, which you, you talked about. I'm curious if you have a favorite piece that you perform either solo or with Tha ‘Yoties. ED: Yeah, I, you know, sometimes people would come up to buy a CD and they're like, so which one do you recommend? I'm like, yo, they're all my kids. So, you know, I don't choose one above another. And I feel it feel kind of, I feel that way. I mean, every every song is written with purpose and with feeling. And you know it, it may be appropriate for one stage of thought and not another. But I guess if I would have to like, pick out something, It's funny, but you know the the “Don’t Worry, [Be] Hopi” interpretation, which is, which is an interpretation of “Don't Worry, Be Happy”, right? I mean, Bobby McFerrin came out with that song back in 1988 and it was like instantly there was a T-shirt in Hopi at Tsakurshovi, the trading post, that said, “Don't Worry, Be Hopi", you know? And we've carried that motto, you know. It's actually a very Hopi concept. “Don't worry, be Hopi.” Hopi, my father used to say, is a compound word, hòtü, which is an arrow representing masculinity and piihu, which is a woman's breast representing femininity. And you bring those two together, you have the yin-yang, that's what it means to be Hopi. To be interconnected, to be in balance, you know? To recognize the wisdom of the feminine, to recognize the wisdom of the masculine, to live in harmony horizontally, you know, with your fellow man, with creation. And to live in harmony vertically, you know, with the history of our past in the underworlds and and above, as well, and with the great spirit, you know. So that's really what it means to be Hopi. So to say “don't worry, be Hopi”, I mean, that makes a whole lot of sense, right? I was just, I was just meditating on the song “Don't Worry, Be Hopi” and I'm like, “You know, we've had the T-shirt for a few decades now. We should probably just have a revised version of the song.” So I put together the song “Don't Worry, be Hopi”, which starts up pretty whimsical, you know. “Here's a little song you know, I changed the words to give it a cultural flow. Don't worry, be Hopi. At the beginning of time, we came into this land to leave our strife behind. Follow Maasaw’s plan. Don't worry, be Hopi.” Now that's a very deep saying right there, a deep expression to people who are Hopi. Because that's saying we're in a covenant relationship with the great spirit and, you know, we'll recognize that. The second verse says “The Castellum come in 1539”, Castellum referring to the Castilian culture of early Spain. They came in 1539. We're first contact people here. You know, the first European settlements in the United States were Florida 1565, Saint Augustine and San Gabriel, New Mexico. Those two are both 15thcentury European settlement, as opposed to Jamestown and Plymouth, you know which are 1600s, 17th century, right. But, so, the next verse introduces that history. “The Castellum they come in 1539. They tried to change our ways, but we were doing fine. We said don't worry, we'll just be Hopi.” 1680, the Pueblo Revolt, 100 years before the American Revolution, in 1680, we kicked the Catholicos out. And “Awatovi sorrow”, which is referring to the destruction of the village in Hopi of Awatovi, which was a converted village which was obliterated. And it, it's not a proud moment, you know, for us it's a sorrowful moment. But it did end significant European contact with us for the next 200 years. “1680 we kicked the Catholicos out and Awatovi sorrow proved, there was no doubt. Don't worry, be Hopi.” Finally, the last verse brings everything full circle and it says, you know. “Still today we have our trouble. The United States, they try to bust our bubble. They say, don't worry, you know, be Hopi. Peabody Coal has been full of lies. They say they don't know why our springs run dry. They say just stay in your corner of Northern Arizona and just be Hopi. You know, there's so there's the, there's the Snowbowl. There's the Grand Canyon mine. The desecration of our sites and shrines. And still they keep telling us: hey, don't worry, just be Hopi. There's so many things in this world we see, and so we cry out [Hopi], which in Hopi means “have mercy upon us”. [Hopi], which means we've all become so out of balance. We've all become so unHopi. Don't worry, be Hopi. And then the song just ends with don't worry about a thing. Bob Marley's words, because every little thing is gonna be alright and I feel like that's also true. Yeah I mean, if our focus and the trouble is on the eternal things: the rising and setting of the sun, the movement of the of the stars, the movement and cycles of the moon, the cycles of the rain. If our focus is on those things, you know, we we stay harmonious, you know? I think we need to stay alert to everything that's going crazy around us, but you know, it's very important that we stay centered and visit the Grand Canyon. ALICIA: So if people are looking to, like if listeners are looking, to hear that song or hear more of your music or learn about, you know, projects you have going on, where should they go to get more information about you or from you? ED: Yeah. So I operate with flip phone technology half the time and the other half you know, if I have Wi-Fi, then I can get on Facebook page or Instagram page and that's “Ed Kabotie” Facebook and Instagram. And there's also “Tha ‘Yoties”, Instagram and Facebook. We don't know how to spell, so Tha ‘Yoties page is like T-H-A, Tha ‘Yoties Y-O-T-I-E-S. But - Tha ‘Yoties, short for coyotes. My YouTube channel actually carries a lot of cool content, I feel like, you know? ALICIA: I agree. Yeah. ED: Long, longer presentations, you know, visuals about performances, videos, what have you. So yeah, I kind of would push people towards that. One of these days I'll try to get a web page going. Then also there is some music on Spotify from Tha ‘Yoties in particular. Yeah, we'll get some Ed Kabotie on there eventually and get some new ‘Yoties recordings on there, as well. ALICIA: Awesome, yeah, that's great, yeah. Thank you for that, that resource. That’s great. I really appreciate you sitting down and taking the time. ED: Heck yeah. ALICIA: Amazing to - to get to talk to you and hear you speak. And is there anything that we didn't touch on that you would like people to who are listening to to know about you or your work or? ED: When I give talks at the Grand Canyon, I just remind people that in Hopi culture, people are watching the cycles of the sun, are watching the cycles of the moon, and are routinely expressing prayers for the world, expressing prayers for the Grand Canyon, expressing prayers for the harmony of all life. When people come to the Grand Canyon, I hope that maybe they'll catch something from that. And that when they go home, that they'll also do the same. We're sending prayers from our home to them. And I would just ask them: do the same for us, you know? Acknowledging, you know, things that have happened in our history and things that are taking place now, you know. We're always seeking lomakatsi the good life, you know, seeking that balance. And we hope that everybody else is too. ALICIA: Thank you so much to Ed for coming out and speaking with us. We gratefully acknowledge the Native people on whose ancestral homelands we gather, as well as the diverse and vibrant Native communities who make their homes here today. [Flute Music]

Lisa Handforth serves as the Fire Ecologist at Grand Canyon National Park. In this episode, we explore her role in the park’s fire program and discuss topics like climate, mycorrhizal fungi, and the interconnectedness of ecosystems. Tune in to discover the vital role of fire in Grand Canyon’s forests and the fascinating world of symbiosis! --- TRANSCRIPT: --- Kamryn: Hi! My name is Kamryn and today we're super excited and lucky to be able to speak with Lisa Handforth. Kamryn: Yeah, thanks so much for being here and kind of taking this time to chat and give a talk tomorrow night. Everyone's super excited to be able to hear that. Lisa: Yeah, I'm excited to be here. Kamryn: If you wouldn't mind just letting us know who you are, and we'll get started. Lisa: Yeah, I'm Lisa Markovchick, married named Handforth, Fire Ecologist at Grand Canyon National Park. Kamryn: Awesome. Yeah, can you tell us what that means to be the park’s ecologist? What that looks like here at the Grand Canyon? Lisa: Yeah so I oversee a fire--we call them the Fire Effects crew. We've got 2 permanent staff and three seasonals who are on the ground collecting both short-term project data and long-term ecological monitoring data, particularly as it pertains to our Fire Program. And then they also collaborate with the inventory and monitoring program. That's the long-term ecological monitoring program for our region, for the National Park Service. And then I spend a lot of time also looking at the interaction between fire and all the different parts of the ecosystem. So, working with our Wildlife and Veg program, for example, thinking about invasives, thinking about our endangered species like Mexican spotted owls, sentry milk vetch that we have, and sort of navigating the intricacies of how fire is interacting with all of the different parts of the ecosystem. Kamryn: Cool, super cool. And from what I understand, this is a newer role for you, newer in the Park Service, so can you talk about your journey here and why you decided to get into the Park Service? Lisa: Yeah, I started out in ecology actually up in Seattle, working with volunteers on former Superfund sites to monitor vegetation recovery after restoration projects. And then did a masters in fire ecology in San Diego, looking at some of the endemic plant species and how their life histories interact with fire and are actually dependent on fire. And then worked for the Navy for about a decade, really looking at sort of how the military mission interacts with a lot of our ecology and how to navigate that and make the most of that synergy. And so, we would also look at things like very specific data on microclimate, for example, and how we could leverage that to really help our endangered species and our species at risk. And just, you know, strange things like you think where moving an invasive is a good idea, but there was actually an interaction going on where removing it without providing some of the things that that invasive was now providing to the ecosystem had negative effects on some of our endangered plants and sensitive plants. And so, we're really kind of leveraging that data on the ground to make better decisions and then working with people to help them understand why it was important to protect this plant or this animal, when we also had another mission. And then I really wanted to learn more about our microbiome and how that was playing into things like our wildfire risk and recovery, drought resilience, managing invasives, because we had a lot of wildfire risk reduction activity that we also did on the military lands and a lot of the different pieces of the ecosystem we are trying to address really seemed to interact with the microbiome and we weren't really doing a lot on the ground in response to that new science. And so, I came to Flagstaff to do my PhD in the Gehring Lab at Northern Arizona University and looked at how we can kind of leverage that microbiome along with things like assisted migration in response to climate change and really get a lot more for our efforts out of the management by thinking more about the whole ecosystem. Of things like how it affects plant physiology and their ability to cope with drought or recover after a fire and how that interacts with things like mycorrhizal fungi. And I don't know if I answered all of your questions or not. That was my journey here. But yeah. And then coming to the Park Service honestly has been and is one of the, you know, biggest pleasures and privileges of my life to be called upon to help protect and sort of safeguard and steward these, you know, beautiful places, particularly the, you know, some of the last remaining wild places on the planet. And how amazing they are and to be entrusted to help care for them and work with, you know, other people who are really trying their best to care for them, particularly in, you know, the age that we're in with climate change starting to affect a lot of things. Kamryn: Yeah, yeah. That's great. Thanks. What have you enjoyed most about your work so far and where do you hope to see the park’s Fire Program going in the next years or phases? Lisa: Yeah. I mean, so far, I, you know, I just started with the Park Service in February, so I've just been enjoying getting to know this amazing place, in addition to learning more from our fire managers and seeing things, being able to see things more through their eyes. That's been just a great privilege and will help us down the line as we start to look at our data, as well as just getting to know the rest of the team. And so both the folks that I am privileged to mentor and oversee, as well as the larger Grand Canyon team and National Park Service team and all the different things that people are doing. Working hard, you know, with, sort of without, largely without recognition or, you know, agenda, just trying to make sure that we're doing the right things for our park. Yeah. And just seeing everyone's enthusiasm for, for really doing the right thing with regard to managing our lands. As well as getting to know the amazing long term ecological like data set that we have so learning more about what are all the different projects we've done in the past and the innovations that the Fire Program has done in the past and then starting to get into being able to extract like the 30 years of data that we have from the database and get it into some software where we can have a little more flexibility with analyzing it. So that's sort of been an adventure so far, yeah. Kamryn: Yeah. And you started mentioning this with Grand Canyon, these places that are seeing very real threats these days. So what do you think are the biggest challenges facing Grand Canyon's forests, the ecosystems that you're working with? Lisa: Yeah, I mean, really the biggest challenge of our time, right, is probably climate change and how do we come together and help all of our species adapt in the time frame that they will need to. So, you know, if you look at the climate future summary for our park for example, it's very clear that our climate is already warming and that the pace of warming is increasing, that we've already had a 17% increase in the precipitation that's falling during the 1% heaviest events. So more, already being very heavily skewed towards more extreme events and that's you know, we often think of warming and fire and drought, but it's also heavy precipitation or precipitation that's not necessarily falling when the species of plants, animals need it. So that snowpack and the window for how long it lasts is changing. Water is running off faster. So, we're seeing, you know, for example, less moisture sinking into the ground and being there for a longer time and these more extreme events and so that's probably our biggest challenge because and it's all intertwined, right like that is also shifting and diminishing our windows where we can do controlled burns for example. And so biggest challenge for us is thinking about how all those things are connected and how can we really leverage everything we've got in defense of protecting our ecosystems, particularly, you know, these very high elevation, mixed conifer, large snowpack areas in a very arid, you know, within the matrix of a very arid region. Right? And all that that brings to us, including our drinking water. Kamryn: Yeah, yeah. How is the team here working in the face of climate change? How is the team working to kind of maintain these robust ecosystems? Lisa: Yeah. So, we're actually working, the Fire Program and our Science and Resources folks--so that's our Veg and Wildlife Programs for example--we have a joint effort currently to really start digging into our climate change planning. So, we're spearheading, sort of taking those climate future summaries, that sort of layout--what the meteorological expectations are, right, and climate expectations are and then sort of moving forward from there of how do we maybe need to refine our goals and our strategies? What does the best available science say about the different strategies and their relative risks and advantages? And then also we're taking another look at how--what can our data that we already have tell us about how we've already been affected. You know, are we seeing places that used to be dominated by ponderosa pine now having maybe more pinyon juniper, for example? So that's something I'll be looking at, for example, over the winter as we start to delve into really analyzing that data that we have to try and figure out if what changes we're already seeing from a species perspective and if that, you know, what are the implications for our management. For example, if we’re looking at prescribed fire and how to manage, what is that optimal interval? Maybe if it used to be ponderosa pine and it's moving more towards pinyon juniper, that interval may be different or some of the other metrics that we're looking at achieving may be different. And so, really starting to dig into that while also maintaining our long-term ecological monitoring efforts so that we can continue to draw on that as a resource for adaptive management, whether that's, you know, the long-term plots and or the sort of more rapid plots that we sometimes do for specific projects. So, trying to take a whole ecosystem approach to that as well, thinking about how can we work with the Vegetation Program and the Wildlife Program? What are the tools that maybe we haven't thought about in the past or what are the factors that we maybe haven't considered as heavily such as erosion, that if we have these more extreme precipitation events, you know, following a fire for example, might be of more concern than they used to be? Kamryn: I guess what is something that you wish the more general public understood about fire management and kind of the role of fire in these types of ecosystems? Lisa: Yeah, I think, I think the main thing that I would love for everyone to understand a little more is the role of good fire, right? I've seen, and understandably so, you know, when there is smoke in the park or that kind of thing, it's not really valued and it's sort of a scary thing for folks. And I think, you know, that of course and is understandable. We spend a lot of time in the news, for example, covering fires that are really quite tragic and scary and awful. But I think maybe we don't focus as much in our news and storytelling and understanding, generally, about communicating about the good things that fire does. I mean there are some plant species that are wholly dependent upon it because they have cones that won't open unless there's a fire and that's how they reproduce, right. As well as just, you know, helping to maintain the biodiversity in some of our ecosystems and things like that, that are very important. And I think we could spend, and I look forward to spending more time, just sort of talking with folks about, you know, when we do have prescribed burns and stuff, not only how much fun fire can be, because it's actually pretty fun, right? That's why we all like campfires and barbecues and all those kinds of things, fireplaces in our homes during the winter, sitting next to the wood stove. But also, you know, the great things that it is doing in the ecosystem and that not every time we see a smoke plume is it a bad thing, right. It actually, we've had some burns that were managed for good on the South Rim this year, and there was a lot of, I noticed, a lot of fear among park visitors that, you know, they weren't going to be able to get out or that it was something really scary. And I think we could spend a lot more time really helping folks understand the amazing phenomenon that it is and the privilege it is to actually see it on the ground in a wild place. And that how much that’s just as much a part of the ecosystem as you know, getting to see, I don't know, a bear, or a deer, or an elk. So, I think we can do better there, and I think we will, but just sort of helping to tell that story of the subtleties. Kamryn: Yeah, yeah. Are there other particular challenges that come with fire ecology or fire management in Grand Canyon National Park? This is a very busy, populated, I'm guessing there's a lot of rules here for all kinds of different things. Are there particular challenges that come with that? Lisa: I think we're a little, you know, I used to work in Southern California, for example. It was incredibly difficult to get permission to do a prescribed burn there because of the smoke impacts, but also because you have so much wildland urban interface where you have houses immediately adjacent to these wildlands areas. In Grand Canyon, you know, we're a little bit lucky in that it's we still have a lot of rules. There's still a lot of, you know, particularly with climate change, like I said, those envelopes in the weather where we can actually do a prescribed burn are shifting and narrowing, for example. So, there are a lot of challenges. Folks also maybe don't value the fact that there’s smoke around and what that means or how picturesque that can be in the Canyon. I have some amazing photographs from some of our fire managers of just how the smoke settles and what that, what picture that creates with the sunset. And so, I think there there's a little bit of tension there with, you know, we want we want to see the Grand Canyon the way we've seen it portrayed without that going on. But I think we also have some good opportunities because we do have a lot of wildland areas where there is not, you know, quite so much congestion with homes and traffic. So, we have a little bit more freedom to actually put fire on the ground in that respect than some places do. You know, it's certainly it's a little bit easier to do it, for example, potentially in the southeast where you have maybe more time throughout the year where you can put fire on the ground. We have more limited time periods when we think about things like the smoke impacts and the drought and the relative humidities and different variables of the weather that we really rely on to help us make sure that we're going to have a productive fire as well as a safe fire. So, there are definitely challenges, but we also have some unique opportunities here. Kamryn: Yeah, cool. And that kind of brings up this other question. Are there particular mistakes or lessons that you've learned from past fire management, and this could be in any decade? Lisa: I think past mistakes, I would actually say Grand Canyon has been on the cutting edge of really looking at and using data to assess how to best manage. Particularly in our fire ecology program, which is what I can speak to you know, we had some amazing innovations with how to use prescribed burns. And even the fact that we were using them and allowing fire in our park before potentially other, you know, land management agencies were as comfortable with that. So, I would actually say, you know, our history is pretty amazing here at Grand Canyon, particularly from a fire management standpoint. We've had innovations where we've targeted, you know, sort of used more targeted approaches of managed fire or prescribed fire on certain slopes, for example, where trees maybe were historically less dense and try and restore that variation across the landscape. And so that was largely backed by science and the data that we had at the time, and the fact that Grand Canyon was willing to sort of entertain these, you know, sort of more novel approaches to prescribed fire where we didn't necessarily try to burn the whole area, but we sort of worked with the system to try and reincorporate some of that variation across the landscape back into the landscape. So, I think there's been a lot of really amazing achievements actually. The mistakes that we've all made in the past, right, really were largely due to maybe the data we didn't have. So, for example, maybe we didn't take as much of an ecosystem approach because we didn't know as much about the microbiome and what role it played in drought and fire resilience or post-fire recovery. So, I think those are some of the areas where we can continue to improve. But actually, we have a really amazing foundation of both data and a willingness to follow the data and work with the system and ecosystem, which is quite amazing, and I hope we can continue. Kamryn: Yeah that’s great. Are there ways that Traditional Ecological Knowledge inform your work and understanding of this area? Lisa: So to date, at the Grand Canyon, my understanding is we have been an innovator and amazing leader in a lot of ways, but I don't think we're yet doing all that we could do to involve the Tribes, for example, in our Fire Program. I'm hoping to present info on our program this fall at some of the meetings with the Tribes and really find out more, you know, listen, do some deep listening and see how we can involve them and support them to really be more involved themselves in things like our Fire Program. And so I'm looking forward to that. I know other areas of the country have been, for example, supporting cultural burning and I think, to date here, we don't yet have that, but that would certainly be a place where we could perhaps, you know, try to figure out a new path forward, and that would be great. [canyon wren birdsong] Kamryn: To provide a little more background on what Lisa is talking about here with cultural burning, is that for many millennia, fire has been integral to many Indigenous peoples’ way of life. People use fire to clear areas for crops and travel, to manage the land for specific species of both plants and animals, to hunt game, and for many other important uses. According to Frank Kanawha Lake, a research ecologist with the Forest Service, and a wildland firefighter of Karuk descent, cultural burning links back to the tribal philosophy of fire as medicine. When you prescribe it, you’re getting the right dose to maintain the abundance of productivity of all ecosystem services to support the ecology in your culture. In many areas, cultural burning took a hiatus during the era of fire suppression in the 20th century due to land management agencies’ enforcement of differing practices and the removal of Tribal people from their lands and not being allowed to practice their own culture. However, this has been changing over the past few decades and cultural burning is again showing up in the landscape in some federally managed lands, as it has been done, and continued to be done even on other lands as well. With that info, we’ll go back to our conversation with Lisa now. [canyon wren birdsong] Kamryn: Are there any other kind of key principles or values that you bring into fire management here at the park? Lisa: Yeah, it's funny. I, in thinking about this question, I feel like the principles that I bring to the Fire Ecology Program are like principles that are kind of generally true too, just in life, right? Leveraging everything we can, particularly in the face of climate change, when time is of the essence, resources are of the essence. Viewing complexity as our friend, not our foe. Understanding that the more factors you look at, the more the results you get can change. And that's not necessarily a bad thing, that just means we have to, we're really being called to refine our understanding of the systems and ecosystems that we live in and how to better work with them, right? And as a result, sort of, you know, taking that whole ecosystem approach where we can leverage every part of the ecosystem for the benefit of all. Looking and listening and asking good questions, right, because of all that complexity. And just sort of viewing, yeah, I view climate change as a call to sort of listen. Listen harder, look deeper, and think about all the ways that we can work together to leverage, you know, whether that's different parts of a team or different parts of the ecosystem. I think we're really being called to understand ourselves and our ecosystems better so that we can do that, which you know can be quite daunting, but also in another way, it's sort of an adventure for an inquisitive mind and is really good work for the soul, I think. Kamryn: Yeah, we can shift over to that larger ecosystem view of the whole forest, these ecosystems that we find at the Grand Canyon. Can you talk more about the microbiome that you were speaking about earlier? The mycorrhizal fungi and how that symbiosis kind of plays an important role in the ecosystem or the landscape? Lisa: Yeah, I think so traditionally, you know, a lot of our program focused quite a lot on what we call fuel loadings. So, for example, tree density, the size of the trees, were they at such a point in their lifespan as to be able to withstand fire, or were they really tall, or sorry, really narrowly, narrow diameter, small diameter trees, but very dense as they grow up, you know, not having been thinned out by fire, for example. So, in the past, a lot of our data analysis was really focused on that even though we were also collecting other aspects like plant community. But what we've learned in the past decades and is really how interlinked all the different parts of the ecosystem are. So, for example, what you were talking about, mycorrhizal fungi, are fungi that are symbiotic with plant roots and what we've learned is that they actually provide a whole bunch of different services in the ecosystem that we all value. So, things like helping the plants get nutrition, right, and we all know that when we get better nutrition, we're more resilient to whatever comes along. Whether that's, you know, a disease or a drought or some kind of sickness. And it's the same for plants. But they are also helping plants moderate their water use efficiency. So, when there is a drought, for example, those plants are more able to withstand it because they have more control, more ability to kind of modulate how well they're using their water. They also provide, you know, a lot of sort of aggregating the soil and changing aspects of the soil that we might be interested in. So, for example, if we're looking at more extreme precipitation events and more erosion and more runoff and less water being absorbed actually into the system to provide that moisture during those hot months, mycorrhizae actually help with that as well. Because they're sort of emitting substances that kind of glue the soil together in bigger chunks and then they provide this sort of what's been called like a sticky string bag or a sticky net of mycorrhizal fungi in the soil connecting those particles as well. So, they're kind of increasing the pore spaces, the spaces between the soil particles in the soil allowing more of that water infiltration, holding onto the soil so it doesn't erode, those kinds of things. And we haven't necessarily been thinking about that, right, because we have, you know, a lot in the past, people have been more focused on sort of, you know, measuring the plant composition and the diversity and maybe not so much on the things that we couldn't see like the microbiome. So, as we have become more familiar with what bacteria and fungi and all these things are doing in our ecosystems, we really have a great opportunity to harness that as well, and work with that in addition to, you know, different types of, for example, the genetics of our plants and how well are they adapted to what they're seeing and how can we support that. And additionally, the microbiome sort of has shorter times to reproduction and genetic remixing, they share DNA in different ways that say plants and animals might not. And so, they actually do also offer, you know, potentially shorter time frames to adaptation and climate change, we're particularly concerned with that, right? Like it's not just the fact that things are changing, but it's how much they're going to change within a very short period of time, which makes it hard for things like genetics to really play out and adapt to that. And so having pieces of that system that can help plants adapt on shorter time frames could be really beneficial. Kamryn: Yeah. Yeah. How do you hope and plan for this knowledge of this, more symbiosis of different species and things encouraging each other's growth, how does that work here at the Grand Canyon? How will that be coming into action in the next few years? Lisa: So, we're, you know, really just getting started on incorporating some of that. But one of the things I've been trying to work on is we know that lots of different kinds of disturbances impact our, the microbiome and our ecosystem, so, for example, mycorrhizal fungi, and that could be anything you know from really severe fire to things like using pesticides and herbicides to try and get rid of invasives. It doesn't mean those things don't have a place in our park, right? It just means that if we're aware that we might also be disrupting the microbiome, then we can actually take some action around that to support the ecosystem. So, one of the things we've been trying to do is look at areas, for example, on the North Rim, where we have an obligation to provide, say Mexican spotted owl habitat, for example, that require certain types of vegetation to be there. After two relatively severe fires that have happened in the same place within, say, 20 years, we can see that those trajectories of the ecosystem are changed and that some intervention and support is required if we want to have the same ecosystem. So, one of the things we can do is actually not just restore the plants that have fallen out of the plant community because, say they have more reliance on a seed bank and now that seed bank is gone, but we can actually plant the plants with their mycorrhizal fungi and microbiome and in that way help them survive because since they're not there and their fungi are reliant on them, basically, they won't have their partners if we plant them, right. So that puts them at a distinct disadvantage if we're not also restoring their microbiome along with them. So being able to pinpoint some spots, and this sort of goes hand in hand with our climate change planning that we're trying to do, pinpoint some spots where we know that the topography is such that those plant communities are going to have a better shot in the long run and then go ahead and restore them in those areas along with their microbiome to give them, you know, that added drought resilience and fire resilience into the future is sort of where we're starting. Kamryn: Yeah, super cool. Are there particular lessons that you think people or human communities can kind of learn from this? Is there a type of maybe biomimicry that people can understand from these relationships? Lisa: Yeah, I mean, this is a really interesting and I feel like sometimes like potentially controversial question strangely, but so the whole notion that we have of survival of the fittest and how that was interpreted, wasn't actually the quote. The quote was the survival of the fit and that meaning that we were adapted to the ecosystem. Animals and plants were adapted to where they were living, right? Rather than it being more of a competition thing, and I think you know, what the microbiome is often teaching us is to really have an understanding of a little more subtlety and nuance and that not everything is a neat little box and not everything is competition right. It's not to say that sometimes we're not, there's not competition, but there's also partnerships and working together and how things are interconnected. And so, I think that's a good lesson for us as we face climate change, for example. That we're really, yeah, kind of being called to understand those subtleties and nuances and also to work together. Right? Like there's certainly managing this park, for starters, is not an individual endeavor. It really requires us to put all of our heads together. And requires good teamwork and so learning how to kind of biomimic, if you will, partnerships and good teamwork I think is a great lesson for all of us, sure. Kamryn: Yeah, yeah. Is there anything else that you want to add or talk about or go back to? Lisa: I think, I think there's probably two things. Maybe one just that as we embark on kind of taking this look back at our, you know, 30 years of long-term ecological monitoring data and reevaluating, like, are we collecting the right things? Are there some things that maybe we could be more efficient on or are there areas that we're not, we haven't in the past collected data, but might be good to look at? As well as you know things that we might have not considered doing proactively before, before a fire or after a fire. Or even the kinds of treatments that we're putting on the ground. It would be great to hear from researchers who are looking at some of those same questions and try to work together with them. I was just down at, in Tucson, at the Society for Ecological Restoration Southwest meeting sort of just trying to provide some background on our program and what data we have and places that we might like to explore additional methods, for example, and asking that same question. I would put that out there for folks. You know, we have a wealth of knowledge in the Southwest of all different kinds of disciplines and I'd really like to work with folks who are interested in some of those things where fire and drought and water and snowpack and different treatments all come together. So that would be one thing. The other thing that I find having worked a lot with them, volunteers, and for example working with high school groups is that, you know, climate change is daunting for us adults, and older folks. I shouldn't say adults, older folks. It's even more daunting if you're coming into it and inheriting it all, right? And trying to figure out what on Earth can you do to contribute and make things better in the future. And so I just would also invite, you know, folks coming at it from that perspective. If you yeah want to get involved, you know we're here. We'd love to hear from you. Not, I'm sure, not just me and the Fire Ecology Program, but also, you know, the Vegetation Program, the Wildlife Program. We have amazing volunteers at the park and I don't, I don't think people know how much volunteers actually do. And can do. And so just put that out there along with, you know, sort of what I was saying earlier, that as daunting as it is, I think it's also, you know, an amazing adventure for an inquisitive mind to really be called to learn our systems better or ecosystems or species. Where we are in the place that we are and how things work together. And that's great for the mind and it's also great as we learn to work better together as teams. It's just good soul work and I think provides a more hopeful path forward than you know maybe being overwhelmed by it all, which is easy to do, right? It's easy to be overwhelmed by the challenge. Kamryn: Yeah, that's great. Thanks. Lisa: Yeah. Thanks for having me! Kamryn: Yeah, this is a great conversation, so we're excited for other people to be able to listen in on it as well. Lisa: Yeah, me too. And I'm excited to, yeah, hear from folks as well. Kamryn: Yeah, that should be cool. [canyon wren birdsong] Kamryn: Thank you so much everyone for listening and thank you to Lisa for taking the time to have this conversation and share so much about Grand Canyon’s Fire Program, climate change and the challenges that we’re facing in this area, mycorrhizal fungi, and really the importance of collaboration and symbiosis in relationships. As Lisa was saying, if you’re interested in collaborating or volunteering, please reach out and let’s see what we can all accomplish together. Thanks everyone!

Would you go down the Colorado river in a couple of homemade rowboats with a guide that had never been down the river? That is exactly what two women botanists from the University of Michigan did in 1938 to become the first women known to have travel 600 miles/965 kilometers down the Colorado river through the Grand Canyon. Want to know more? Stay tuned…. Brave the Wild River podcast is now available on the Behind the Scenery Podcast series. --- TRANSCRIPT: --- Wallis: Hi this is Wallis, and today we are featuring an interview with Melissa Sevigny, award winning author in her spare time and science reporter for KNAU in Flagstaff. In this episode Melissa will tell us about her career path and how she went from wanting to be a geologist to working as a science reporter and writing an award winning book. Wallis: Ok, well we are here today with Melissa Sevigny, author, science reporter and let’s get started. Hey Melissa, Melissa: So great to be here. Wallis: So great to have you here. A lot of interview questions are the kinds of things that you might expect. A sort of letting our listeners get to know you so let’s do a few of those questions. I see from your bio that you started out with a degree in Environmental Science and Policy but now you are an award-winning writer and journalist. Was writing something you always wanted to do? Melissa: You know, not really, actually which is funny um I have always written things ever since I was a little girl but I always wanted to be a geologist. That, that was my dream. Um and so I stuck with that all the way up until I enrolled in the university of Arizona and I enrolled in an Environmental Science degree which I figured would be geology with some trees added on top you know but somewhere along the way I just I can’t even describe it I got pulled away by writing I just kept taking more and more writing classes and taking jobs that helped me learn how to communicate science to the public and it kind of just stole me away it was not intentional. I never imagined I would be a writer but somehow here I am. Wallis: But there you are. So I have a follow-on question to that is tell us a little bit how you went from environmental science to the MFA program at Iowa State University and from there to being a science reporter for KNAU? Melissa: You know it’s not a very exciting story. When I was applying for grad schools I didn’t really know what I wanted to do. I had ended up with a double major in environmental science and creative writing and I was sort of stuck between those 2 loves and so I applied for a bunch of programs some in sciences and some in writing and some in science writing and I really didn’t know what I was doing and uh the program that had full funding was this environmental creative writing program at Iowa State University and so that is where I ended up. Um I think it is good to share that story with young people who feel like maybe they need to know what their path is gonna be like. I had no idea what I was doing. I went and got that creative writing degree, I graduated, I was unemployed. I didn’t know what to do with that degree. it was such a weird mix of skills I had kind of cultivated and then this job came up for a science reporter for the NPR station in Flagstaff and I wanted to come back home to Arizona, this is where I grew up so I applied a little bit on a whim. I didn’t know if I was qualified or if I could get the job um but I did and I’ve been there 10 years and it has really taught me a lot about uh talking about science to the public. Wallis: That’s very interesting and so like many people you didn’t have a direct career path but you just kind of followed your heart. Melissa: Exactly yeah. Wallis: Well what makes communicating science exciting and challenging right now? So as both an author and a science reporter for KNAU what differences do you see in the various mediums of science communication? And what methods do you think are most effective? Melissa: That is such an interesting question because there are so many more methods now than even when I was little you know um there is social media and there’s video and there are podcasts like this one. There is just so many wonderful ways to reach out to people and I think the most effective way is the way that works for the audience you want to reach. I mean I think they all, they all can work for different people um and so I am glad there is people out there doing all of those kinds of things. You know the kind of person who would pick up a book like you know what I have written um isn’t the same kind of person who is going to listen to a podcast or listen to a video on YouTube so it it is an exciting time. There is a lot of different ways to communicate science and for me maybe the most exciting thing is just that science is exciting and my goal is to make it as accessible as possible. I want people to feel like they can do science, they can be scientists. It doesn’t matter what your background is or your age is. You don’t have to be this image of uh a wild haired genius locked away in an ivory tower someplace. That is not what a scientist is. You know, really it boils down to if you are curious and observing the world around you and all of us do that naturally as kids you know and it is something we sort of grow out of and so my goal with communication is to show people how exciting it is to tap into that curiosity. Wallis: Great! Let’s move on. Now your book Brave the Wild River was published last year and I thoroughly enjoyed reading it this spring. This wonderful book, in case you don’t know, was the 2024 Southwest book of the year top pick, a 2024 Reading the West Award for memoir/biography, and the 2023 National outdoor book award for history/biography. Now as a woman scientist I am always interested in the women scientists who came before me. So, the questions I would like to ask you are how did you learn about or get interested in Elzada Clover and Lois Jotter? And sort of a follow on to that would be what spurred your interest in the women and why did you think this was an important or timely story you thought needed to be told? Melissa: I really just stumbled across their story. I was looking for something else I don’t remember what it was and I was fishing around online at the special collections department at Northern Arizona University in Flagstaff and this um this hyperlink popped up and it said women botanists. And I was curious so I clicked on it and there was just one name in the file and the name was Lois Jotter and I read the description and I learned that she had gone down the Colorado river through Grand Canyon in 1938 with her mentor Elzada Clover and they were both botanists from Michigan and they made the first formal plant collection of over 600 miles of the Colorado river and I was so surprised that I had never heard of them before. You know I grew up in Arizona, I thought I knew a lot about Colorado river history and yet I had never encountered their names. And so I just started started poking around um Lois was a packrat she kept all kinds of material, her diaries, her letters from this trip and that was all at Northern Arizona University and so I started going over there on my lunch breaks and just kind of like looking around in the story and I got so drawn into it and eventually I started to write and pretty soon I realized that I had I had a book. I was writing a book um it took me a while to come to that realization but I was just really drawn to their story exactly for the reason you said. You know it’s amazing to hear about the women scientists that have come before us. There are so many of them out there but often their stories kind of get lost. They sort of fall through the cracks and so I wanted to to bring this story kind of back to the forefront so that when people are coming to places like the Grand Canyon or they are interested in doing science. You know I think I think it makes us feel a little less alone when we see people like ourselves throughout history who were doing that work. Wallis: Oh I agree I uh used this book as a basis for several programs and at my last program I had a woman who was a graduate student in botany and she was with her family and her mother said do you know about these women and she said I had never heard of them. And that was really shocking to me, so I am glad that you found the link and are bringing them forward. Melissa: Thank you. Wallis: Now do you feel there are any special challenges in telling a story that is not well know like this story and we like to call them deferred stories rather than researching and retelling a more dominant narrative? Do you think it is a little harder? Melissa: Yeah that is such a great question I um I hadn’t heard that phrase before, deferred story and I really like that. They are kind of stories that just haven’t quite been told yet for whatever the reason. Um there are challenges with it but I am drawn to that type of story because because I think, I don’t know I just I get really fascinated by stories that that haven’t really been told before at least not in the kind of extensive format, in a book format. Um and so that really draws me in I just I I want to be able to to kind of chart new ground when I am writing, and chart a new path and so that attracted me to this story. Some of the the challenge is just: is the archival material there? When you are doing stories out of history you have gotta have those primary sources, so you have got to have archives and I was really lucky that Lois Jotter and Elzada Clover both kept their diaries. They kept extensive notes and they both had the foresight to donate those to universities before they passed away. And if it wasn’t for that I probably wouldn’t have been able to write the book because I wouldn’t have had their point of view. Um and so you know I think it is a challenge to, you know, some of these stories like we know they are out there like we might know a name or an idea but we just don’t have the material or it just didn’t survive. And so that is a real challenge in pulling those kind of memories out um and it speaks to the importance of historians and archivists who do this work and make sure those things don’t get lost. Wallis: Oh it certainly does and I found that bits and pieces of their journals that I’ve read have been fascinating and it kind of spurs me to want to journal more just in general. Melissa: I shudder to think of what someone would make of my diary if they tried to read it. Wallis: True. Now I understand you did a river trip while researching this book. So do you have a favorite spot in the Grand Canyon that you maybe discovered on that trip? Melissa: Oh gosh (laughing) I’m not sure I can pick a favorite spot it was my first river trip, my first white water trip of any kind. I had never done that before, but I felt like I needed to to understand how to tell this story and so everything was new and everything was extraordinary and every corner you turned unveils these fantastic new views. I I don’t know if I have a favorite spot but I do have a favorite moment in time. I was hiking in one of the the side canyons the tributary channels um canyons and I I stopped dead because I smelled something. I ran into this like ribbon of smell that was coming off of some plant and I don’t know what plant it was I never found it but it stopped me in my tracks because it was this extraordinary fragrance and it made me think like this is what like bees or hummingbirds animals that are drawn to flowers must feel when they are out in the world and that was a moment that stands out in my mind. I felt like when I was down there, I was using all of my senses in a very different way like in a way I don’t normally pay attention to what I am smelling that way um but yeah it kind of, it wakes you up in a way that is very hard to describe. Wallis: So you became a botanist while you were on this trip then a little bit. Melissa: I did my best yeah and I was lucky that I was on a trip with botanists we were weeding Ravenna grass out of the Grand Canyon which is a non-native species so there were botanist with me and I peppered them questions so I learned a lot from them. Wallis: Sure. I’ll bet you didn’t have to do all the cooking though! Melissa: I I did almost none of the cooking and I feel a little bad. I told the story that is in the book about how Elzada and Lois had to do all the cooking on their expedition pretty early in the trip and I think they were afraid to ask me to cook after that. Um the lower half of the trip was just me and a group of men and I didn’t do any cooking at all. Wallis: That’s great that’s great. So, your book has become a primary source of information for myself and our other rangers looking to tell more stories about women in the Grand Canyon. Well, where or how did you learn more about these stories. I guess you sort of touched on that but if you could elaborate just a little bit more about your sources. Melissa: Yeah for Elzada and Lois um there are archives at the University of Michigan and at Northern Arizona University that the two women kept but there were a lot of gaps particularly in Elzada’s story. She was a very private person and so she was less open about keeping all of her materials and so I had to track down more things about her in kind of more creative ways. I had to find archives of people that she wrote to and go look at those archives to see if they kept copies of her letters and uh a really important source was tracking down um former students of both of these women because it was still, I got to know them through their letters and their diaries but I still, I still needed to know what they were like as people and as teachers and as mentors and so I was able to track down um former students to both of them and that really helped me understand who they were as as people and I am so grateful to those sources for for sharing their memories with me. Wallis: And I think that your understanding of them as people really comes out in the book, so it is interesting the sources that you have found. Melissa: That’s good, yeah. Wallis: Well are there other stories about women that you are interested in learning about or that you think need telling her in the Grand Canyon? Melissa: Oh there are so many and I had to stop myself from getting distracted and working on other projects while I was working on this book. I am now working on a short piece about an ornithologist named Florence Merriam Bailey. Um her her husband and her brother were both more famous than her and so people don’t always know her story. But she spent several months at the bottom of the Grand Canyon cataloguing the birds and she wrote a very beautiful book called Birds of the Grand Canyon which is just so elegantly written um and so I think that her story needs to be told more but there are so many others. I kept encountering them as I was working you know um John Wesley Powell had a sister named Ellen and she catalogued the plants north of the Grand Canyon right here on the Kaibab Plateau where we are sitting now and a lot of people don’t know about her. And there are many others and I think um I think we are going to see more to these stories being told as we go forward. Wallis: Ok, that’s great. So are you going to expand that little project into a book or do you have another book project going? Melissa: Well I don’t know yet I am kind of in a hiatus um I I wrote the book on the weekends. This is my side job I guess you could call it um and so I need a little rest and I am looking around for new ideas but I do have some ideas about stories like this, stories that have kind of fallen through the cracks. I really like doing the archival work um and so I’ve got some some ideas but I haven’t quite firmed them up yet and decided what my next project is. Wallis: Ok. Well after reading your book and doing additional research for my programs I really started to feel a sort of kinship with both of them, as if we would have been friends in another time and place and I would be interested to know your personal perspective on both Elzada and Lois. Melissa: They were both very different and I identified with them in different ways at different times. You know Elzada was the older of the two she was 41 um in her era she would have been considered a spinster. You know she was unmarried, as far as I could tell she had no interest in getting married. Um, that wasn’t what she wanted to do. She was obsessed with plants um her students described her as just going off into the woods and they would be trailing behind her and falling in the holes and getting into poison ivy and she just was like focused on getting the plants and nobody wanted to disappoint her. Um and and so she was just a very like larger than life, rea;;y passionate person when it came to botany. Lois was the younger of the two she was 24. Um, she was much more open in her diary about things that she wanted to complain about for example, so it was really easy to get to know her because she was very very open in her diary and letters. Um and uh and she was on a different career path than Elzada. She was doing more laboratory based work and less field work um but I think they had I think they had a bond that was interesting to me. They were friends, they were teacher and student and they didn’t always get along and sometimes they got into little spats while they were on the river um but I think they were so human and so complicated and I definitely couldn’t pick a favorite um at different times and different ways I felt a lot of kinship with both of them. Wallis: So, in what ways do you feel similar to or different from each of them? Or can you explain that? Melissa: I think yeah I think um for most part Lois is very likeable she was very charismatic um most of the people with a few notable exceptions would would kind of instantly feel a friendship with Lois. Wallis: She had a smile and in some of those photos didn’t she? Melissa interjects: Yes, yeah she had a very bright smile she was just she was described as a sort of like a magnetic person, a magnetic personality. I think I am not like that I think I am more like Elzada in that it is maybe a little bit harder to get to know a little bit more reserved um you know she wasn’t as easy for me to get to know through her letters and diaries so I probably identify more with her on that part of her personality but it depends on the day I suppose. Wallis: I suppose it does. Did did your opinion of them or ideas of them change at all as you researched the book and how did that work out? Melissa: It did yeah I found one of the strongest examples was that very early in the research I found uh um a source that said Elzada was a motherly person and that kind of caught me up. I was like, it didn’t it didn’t seem quite right but I it was early in the project and so I wasn’t sure, yet she certainly took a lot of care of the people around her on the trip. But motherly sounded like maybe something somebody was putting her in that box so somebody was thinking 40 year old woman in the 1930s she must be motherly and so I had to do some digging and it was really when I found um one of her students to talk to and they described to me how she would be on expeditions and how obsessed she was with plants and she didn’t sound motherly at all so that was something that I had to kind of uncover about her personality as I as I did the research. Wallis: Ok. Do they remind you of anyone from modern times? Melissa: Oh what a great question! Um I don’t know although. I’ve I’ve had a chance to meet a lot of students in the past year when I have been going on these book talks and I just came back from the University of Michigan Biological Station Wallis: Interesting! Melissa: where both these women worked and there were so many students there you know. I kind of got to spend some time with them and go out you know go out on the boat with them and you know pull up weeds out of the lake and look at them and their their passion and their curiosity about the world around them and the questions they asked. Uh it was so inspirational and uplifting um and I I felt I felt like they were kind of channeling the spirit of these of these two woman like they were the legacy of these two women left behind. Wallis: It’s interesting because I was going to use that exact same word, channeling the spirit of those two women. Melissa: Right Wallis: Great. Well I see, and to me this is very interesting, I see that you worked with NASA’s Phoenix-Mars Scout Mission back in 2008. Can you tell us a little bit about the mission and what you did because that sounds fascinating? Melissa: Sure yeah. It was actually my first ever science communication job was on the Phoenix-Mars Scout mission. Um and it was a lander that landed on Mars in 2008. A lot of people don’t pay attention to the landers because the rovers get all the attention. They get to drive around but it was a really cool mission. We landed on the pole on the polar regions and drilled down and we were the first mission to what we call ground truth the the fact that there is water ice there. We had observed that from satellites but nobody had actually touched it before and we were the first mission to do that. And I actually started on that mission as a as a volunteer working on the robotic arm camera team. So that was a camera that was attached to the arm that was doing the digging to take pictures of the water ice. And at one point when the when the mission was about to land and um they were opening up jobs for people to work during the ground operations there was an opportunity for me to either take a job on that team or take a job on the education and public outreach team. And looking back I know that was a real crossroads in my life even though I was just, I think, 19 years old or something like that um you know it was a decision and I I don’t know, you know, sometimes I still wonder if I had taken the other path and stayed kind of in the engineering and the hard sciences what my life would have been. But I decided to go on the education and public outreach team and I have to say I loved it it was the best job I’ve ever had Wallis: That’s great. Thank you. Kind of to wrap up. Story telling is what we do as interpretation rangers. We select a topic that we hope will be of interest to our visitors, something that pertains to the park, and then we work on telling a good story. In ‘Brave the Wild River’ you weave together many stories and you make these two women and Norm Nevills and all the characters involved in the trip really come to life. Do you have any suggestions for us on how to tell a good story? Melissa + Wallis: How to tell a good story? Melissa: I mean I have been trying to figure that out my whole entire career and I I imagine I am going to keep working on it. Um at least at this moment in time how I feel is that a good story kind of boils down to people who want something and there are obstacles in their way you know what I mean? Like at the heart of this story is two women who had this desire to go and make their mark on the world of Botany and they were willing to go risk their lives to do it. I mean a river trip in 1938 was no small feat you know they they really dove into something where they didn’t know what they were getting into and they didn’t have the kind of equipment and maps and information that we have today but they were so passionate about about this idea that they could make a difference in the field of Botany that they were going to go no matter what. And so it is a story about about that kind of inner drive that inner desire and I think a lot of stories are about that when you kind of peel back the layers and see the heart of the story. Do you have a character who wants something and what are they prepared to do to get what they want? Um I imagine there is other ways to think about story telling but that is just kind of the way I am thinking about it right now. Wallis: Well thank you that’s helpful for us. And finally do you think there are, we touched on this a little bit, but do you think there are other Grand Canyon stories that really need to be told? And what might they be? Melissa: I think there are so many, and I am glad we are doing this on the North Rim you know I have been walking around looking at those views and just thinking about how vast and incredibly iconic this landscape is. I mean there are no words to describe the Canyon and I think it is full of stories many of which have not yet been told. I mean everyone who comes and encounters this canyon has a new story to tell and throughout history there are stories that need to be told. I think one thing I am really glad the park service is doing now is telling more stories about the Indigenous peoples who live in this region and making space for them to tell their own stories and talk about their presence in the park. Um I think that is a really important step forward I think there are definitely more stories about women to tell throughout history who have encountered this place and been changed by it and and again I do think every visitor who comes here comes away with their own story. Wallis: Thanks. I I like the way you said that the Canyon changes people because I really feel that since I have been here too. Melissa: It does. It does and it is hard to put into words but you do come away from it feeling different about the world and about yourself and about life and what it means to be alive on this beautiful planet. It’s it’s an incredibly important place for for experiencing that kind of change. Wallis: Oh I think so I couldn’t agree more and I think that I think that Elzada and Lois probably felt exactly that way when they came out of the Canyon. Melissa: I think they did and I think they were changed for the rest of their lives by what they had experienced. Wallis: Absolutely. Well, thank you very much. We have been talking to Melissa Sevigny author of ‘Brave the Wild River’ and science reporter for KNAU. Thanks again. Melissa: Thanks Wallis Wallis: We would like to thank Melissa for taking the time to talk to us today and we look forward to her next writing project. And before we leave, I’d like to gratefully acknowledge the Native peoples on whose ancestral homelands we gather, as well as the diverse and vibrant Native communities who make their home here today.

What are Kaibab squirrels? How rare are they? How can I see one? Join this conversation with Houston Thompson, a wildlife biologist at Grand Canyon, to learn what we know about this special species, what’s still to be discovered, and what makes them so darn cute! --- TRANSCRIPT: --- Houston: You want to go out and see one? You're probably going to need to hike some miles. Maybe go for some drives, and you're just actually going to have to get lucky. Juli: Hey there. I'm Ranger Juli, and I sat down with one of our wildlife biologists to learn more about just one of the many things that make the North Rim of Grand Canyon a special place, Kaibab squirrels. Houston: Yeah. Hello. My name is Houston Thompson. I'm a wildlife biologist here at the Grand Canyon. Working on the North Rim in summers focusing on our Kaibab squirrels, our bison, Mexican spotted owls, and California condors, in addition to a number of other critters. Been here a couple of years and we've been making great strides, especially on some Kaibab squirrel population modeling. And that's what we're here to talk about today, I believe. Juli: Awesome. So what are Kaibab squirrels and why is it important for you guys to be studying them here at Grand Canyon? Houston: So yeah, good question. Kaibab squirrels are one of six subspecies of tassel eared squirrels. Tassel eared squirrels are found from here in Arizona into New Mexico, Colorado, Utah and even down into Mexico. I believe two of the subspecies are in Mexico. The largest range subspecies is the Abert squirrel. And they're what you'd be familiar with on the South Rim. They extend from the South Rim there into New Mexico, Utah and Colorado. There's another subspecies, lives the Rocky Mountain front, the Kaibab squirrel, our special squirrel here on the North Rim, endemic to the North Rim, have one and the smallest ranges of all the subspecies. So, they're very cute, cute squirrel, large white fluffy tail. And they're a fairly large squirrel as well compared to most other rodents you see around. Juli: Can you explain what an endemic species is? Houston: So yeah. An endemic species is a species that's just found in one geographic location, generally an isolated area. And more likely than not, they might have special traits that have allowed them to persist, and kind of evolve in place. So, it's really important for us to study these endemic species, because they can lend some of those special traits that we want to understand that helps them survive in the location they find themselves in. Juli: For Kaibab squirrels, what are some of those traits that make them different from other Abert squirrels? And do you guys know how those traits benefit them here? Houston: So, we know part of that answer at least. So, I mentioned there are six subspecies of this tassel eared squirrel. And they're all a little different. So mostly it's based on their pelage, which is kind of their fur coloration and patterns. So, Kaibab squirrels will have a fully white tail. That's one of the bigger differences. Whereas an Abert squirrel will have kind of a white and black, kind of black underneath. And it's a little more speckled I guess, overall. So, our Kaibab squirrels in the right light just looks like a bunch of snow or something. Their very white tail, very easy to spot on the landscape, that sort of thing. They also have, more often than not, black bellies compared to Abert squirrels that have more white bellies. Although there are actual, there have been some sightings, where that's actually reversed, but it's fairly uncommon. They believe that that change has occurred just because of one gene mutation. So Abert squirrels and Kaibab squirrels and arguably all the other subspecies used to be a little more connected through Ponderosa, and other pine forests that used to be a little more connected. And after long periods of time, some of those pine forest pockets became a little more isolated. And that's how our Kaibab squirrels have found themselves more or less stuck here on an island on the Kaibab Plateau. Juli: So, you said that they're really easy to see because of their white, fluffy tail. But a lot of times visitors are asking, how can they see one? Where can they see one? How rare are they? How many? Do you have any answers to those questions? Any tips for how visitors might have the best chance of seeing a Kaibab squirrel, and what should they do if they see one? Houston: Sure. So, I could go into some history of population, because it's tough. They're, they're kind of a cryptic species arguably, just because they're very quiet. They escape predators by climbing a tree and just going silent. And they're not active throughout the day. I mean, they will be, they'll bounce around, but you just kind of have to catch them at the right time. And you have to be in the right area. So, you need to be one, in pine forests, although even in our mixed conifer, you can run across them here on the North Rim. But they are pine obligates. So normally they're around, on the North Rim here, mainly ponderosa pine. Other areas they'll eat on other pine trees like pinyon, etcetera. So, part of the difficulty in seeing one now is there's just not that many, it seems. But population has always been difficult to determine. There's been biologists working on this for almost a hundred years, and population estimates vary wildly. So back in, like the 1920s, they thought maybe 5 to 10,000 of them were in existence by the 40s, maybe 3000. By around the 70s, maybe one biologist thought 1000, another thought 5 to 10,000. And even more recently, like in the late 80s, something like 22,000 squirrels was the estimate. Juli: Wow, is that all Kaibab squirrels? Houston: Just Kaibab squirrels. So, we've been doing some surveys that have been done historically to try to figure out how many we have. They call it a feed index. So basically, we would set up a grid, a fairly large grid, and you'd go 5 or 10 meters and count how much feed sign you found, and that'd be feed that's dropped from the tree as their feeding. It could be where they're digging up mushrooms, a number of other things as well. So, you'd count how many of those little meters had feed sign and you'd continue doing that throughout the grid. It takes a couple hours to do this, this survey. And then you'd kind of do some math to say, well, how many of those plots out of about 270 had feed, which then you could say over time is feed increasing or decreasing? And they would kind of try to extrapolate that on a landscape level to try to figure out how many squirrels we have. So not simple and I would argue pretty unreliable. So, the last decade or more, we've been doing those feed index grids, and we would just start getting zero feed sign. And we know the squirrels are around, but it's hard to extrapolate how many squirrels you have when all your grids say zero. So, we do know they've been in decline for over a decade. Maybe a fairly stark decline, having worked with the feed index grids. And we have a new kind of novel protocol here for searching for squirrels on the Grand Canyon, I might only speculate several hundred, maybe a thousand squirrels currently on the Kaibab Plateau. Again, it's kind of difficult to put a good number to it, but that's why we're working on it. So, to find the squirrel, if you want to go out and see one, you're probably going to need to hike some miles, maybe go for some drives and you're just actually going to have to get lucky. You could also go where previous people have spotted squirrels. That can be a little more reliable. Last year, for example, we had a pair in the North Rim Campground, so they were just really visible. But even then, you kind of had to get lucky. So, if you find a Kaibab squirrel, we would like to know about it. Because they're so rare currently, we take all sightings from the public and staff. We do our new survey protocol to look for feed sign. And we're building a map of where these squirrels may be. And we're then looking into why are they in the places they are? We're trying to get trends. Are they increasing? Decreasing still? Luckily, I do feel like in the last two years or so, they have been, in fact, increasing just slowly. This fall actually, some anecdotal evidence from the forest suggests maybe they’re rebounding pretty quick, which is definitely possible. They can have 2 or 3 litters a year, and each litter can have 3 to 5 squirrels in it. So, they can proliferate pretty quickly. That said, they're also pretty low on the food chain and they make a tasty snack for a wide number of predators. Historically, goshawks were considered one of their primary predators. With boom and busts of populations we don't seem to have many goshawks around right now either which allows, perhaps, for a quicker rebound. I was mentioning a feed index grid. That's been the historic method for surveying for these squirrels. Our kind of new, more novel method is really just go find the squirrels. So, we just go on hikes looking for a winter feed sign, where we document that. And then we'll actually if we find some feed trees, we will then circle around to try to map out their winter territory, which could be almost 20 acres in size. Having kind of worked through this process, we've also learned that those feed index grids are somewhat biased. You could have a historic grid just that happens to be on, say, a historic winter territory, and so maybe you're just catching sign from one territory year after year and you're not actually getting the bigger picture. And the fluctuation in sign quantity could be more of a factor of how much feed is on the landscape that year. So, maybe I should back up one more moment. These Kaibab squirrels and just tasseled squirrels in general, are the only squirrel species that's really active year-round. So, most squirrels kind of cache food and kind of hibernate some in the winter. These squirrels do not. They don't cache food, and they therefore also have to stay active all winter. They do not hibernate. So when they start getting really hungry, late in winter, really all they're eating is the inner bark of trees. So at the end of a twig, they'll lop off the little pine needle palm, that'll fall to the ground, and then they'll kind of take off the end of that twig and corncob it. So they're like stripping the bark and eating the phloem, the living sugary part of the tree. And then they'll drop that to the ground. So, we're looking for those little pencilized twigs. It's a telltale sign of a tassel eared squirrel or Kaibab squirrel. So we're looking for that type of sign to figure out where they were in the winter. And then based on that, you have actually a better chance of seeing them in those areas as well. They'll generally only be within about a square mile of their winter territory during summer. Their summer territory is quite a bit longer. And of course, they do other things too. They can disperse over long distances, although we don't have a good bearing on how far that might be. But based on the winter territories we have observed, some of those can have miles between them. And I guess in nature sex is a good driver for dispersal, so they're often most likely just trying to go find a mate when they're out dispersing. So that's our current approach is more or less just let's go find the squirrels and figure out what's going on. But we are looking into some other, novel approaches, some of which have been pulled from mesocarnivore models. So, we're trying to collect DNA, using attractant stations, offer up some bait, and hopefully they come and leave some hair behind. We're trying acoustics, a noninvasive methodology that's becoming fairly popular for a number of species. Even though they're pretty quiet, we're hopeful some of that will still be fruitful. So, yeah, we'll put up a recorder kind of in a center of a winter territory where we have a higher expectance to see if squirrels will be there. We have a couple months worth of audio that hopefully will pick up a squirrel sound. They're pretty quiet, though, and they don't talk a lot. And their audio doesn't really project that far either. So, we'll see how it goes. We're also trying some track pans. So, we make this little, square or triangle kind of a rain proof tunnel, that they can walk through. And the bottom of that has a metal pan with kind of like chalk or ink toner, something that really can leave nice footprints behind. And then we can collect those footprints to see presence or absence of squirrels. A lot of these methods don't tell you how many squirrels we have, but it might move us in the right direction. So this is all been experimental in 2024, and we have yet to get some data on it. Additionally, we're trying to collect some actual, genetic samples just from tissue of squirrels that are recovered from being hit by cars. We put a word out with Arizona game and fish to collect samples from hunters because they are actually a hunted species, believe it or not, despite their low numbers. The goal is to get genetic markers, so that we can do eDNA. So, Edna is environmental DNA. Historically, it's mainly been done in water bodies. So to back up half a moment, we're all shedding skin cells. So are the squirrels or the birds. Just everything is. And so, you can filter water in a pond, you can collect those skin cells that have come from everywhere. And then you can actually determine what is there, based on kind of a genetic library that we pull from. Science keeps progressing. Not long ago, someone demonstrated for the first time that you can actually sample spider webs for the same purpose. So, these spider webs are sticky. The skin cells stick to that, and we can see what's around. So that was one of the first terrestrial uses of Edna. But going forward, we think we'll be able to perhaps filter air to determine presence absence of these squirrels and other species really. It doesn't tell you an abundance, just a presence or an absence. So that's kind of an exciting way to go as well. Juli: Yeah. That's cool. It's kind of gross to think about, but kind of cool to think about, too. Houston: And it's great because it's also noninvasive. A lot of studies of wildlife requires getting your hands on or playing a call so that they call back and it's kind of invasive. It can alter their behavior, change what they're doing. It can even add stress depending on what you're doing. So yeah, the noninvasive methods are preferred. Hopefully they work. Juli: Hopefully. So, you've said that the Kaibab squirrels are pretty quiet. But other than that, is there any ways that you could think to describe the personality of the squirrels, the ways they act, or your interactions with them? Anything memorable? Houston: Yeah. Well, so squirrels are squirrels. They are cute, of course. Especially when they're, like, chasing each other, which more likely than not, it's when they're rutting and they're not actually playing. I don't know how much play they have, and they might play more when they're tiny tiny. And that's pretty darn cute, too. I mean, two cute squirrels chasing each other. It's hard to beat that. When they have their new litter, those are especially cute to watch too. Younger species in general, including our cute Kaibab squirrels, of course they're cuter because they're young, but they're also more fumbly. They'll like, try to jump to a branch and kind of fumble around and, and they're a little awkward. And that just adds to the fun. A month or two ago as well, I was out on, on the rim and I actually flushed a peregrine falcon from the cliffs that started calling some. I listened back and actually could hear a Kaibab squirrel make three short little calls. And so, since we've been into the acoustic realm of late, it gave me hope that maybe this, this type of survey and acoustic survey could work. I'm still a little skeptical, though, because it's just not that loud. It does take a trained ear to pick out a Kaibab squirrel from the forest. But their call is very much unique compared to other species. Probably the squirrel that most people are familiar with is the southwestern red squirrel. They're really territorial. They'll yell at you; they’ll chat at you. They make sure you know they're there. They're kind of like the alarm calls of the forest. Where comparatively, these Kaibab squirrels are really quiet. You could walk right by one, and they might not say anything. On occasion when you approach, they might let you know they're there. But generally, they're just a silent species. They're pretty nonchalant. They don't seem to be that worried about predators. They'll just kind of go about their business looking around and just being squirrels. That also means they get snatched up I think, pretty easy. And their white tail probably doesn't help with that too much. The white tail could have a number of purposes as well. It could be this big white flag saying, grab me, grab me where the rest of the squirrel is dark. So if a hawk comes and tries to snatch it, it might try to grab the white fluffy tail. And it's so darn fluffy they're just going to miss. And then the squirrel gets away. It's also nice and fluffy to help with cold winter temperatures. In the winter, they do sleep even though they're active year-round. They'll actually kind of ball up with their tail on their face, kind of in a nice little round circle to help stay warm. So that really fluffy tail really helps kind of hold some of that air stable to add that warmth that they will absolutely need when it's really cold out. So because they are so nonchalant, not too worried about predators around, they're not very good with cars. They'll, they'll just kind of wander out in front of the road. Juli: I’ve noticed that. Houston: Yeah, we have a pretty high squirrel vehicle mortality wherever, wherever you find them. So it can be a good chance to see one. But at the same rate, speeding, even going at regular speed, sometimes it's hard to avoid them. So even though I'm describing them as kind of nonchalant, carefree, they are actually fairly observant. So if you see a squirrel in the woods, they might see you looking at them. And part of it is humans have this predator look. We're on our hind legs, our claws, our front claws are free. Our eyes are in front of our head. These are all, like, telltale predator signs. And they'll, they'll notice that. So often if you see one and they see you, they're going to be like, huh. And they're going to start probably walking away from you. And if you follow them a little, they'll be like, oh, this, this doesn't seem right. And they'll pretty quickly climb a tree. And at which point they try to go to almost the very top where they just then go silent and then they wait for the predator to leave. Juli: Is there a reason, I feel like usually when I've seen them, they're running across the ground instead of climbing up a tree, until eventually, like you said. Is that just when I see them? Are they normally running across the ground? Is there a reason that they like, hang out more there than up in the trees? Houston: So, they probably hang out more in the trees than you think. Juli: Oh, I'm just not looking up, probably. Houston: Yeah. And they're hard to see, like, there's a lot of branches in a tree. They're just hard to see up there. Especially because they just go completely still. They're not, like, flailing their tail back and forth. They're just up there quiet. And really being on the ground is when they're the most vulnerable to predators. The trees offer a lot of protection. So they nest in trees. They make the most of their living in trees. But a lot of their living has to be done on the ground, too. So certain times a year, they're certainly eating that inner bark, so in winter, primarily. In spring, they're eating baby pinecones. And throughout the summer season, a lot of pine cones as they mature. And then a big portion of their diet is actually fungus on the ground. So mushrooms, primarily. It's where they get a significant source of their protein, and it's just a huge part of their diet. So that's, they're on the ground to go find and dig for truffles essentially. So that's probably when you're seeing them. Sometimes they're getting from tree to tree that way as well. But if the trees are in a close enough proximity, they can actually, like little squirrel ninjas, jump from tree to tree to tree and never really need to come to the ground. Juli: So can you elaborate at all on how they have a symbiotic relationship with the forest, or to what degree they have a symbiotic relationship with the forest? Houston: Absolutely. And they absolutely do. They are pine tree obligates, and you could argue the other way around, almost. So it's a symbiotic between, a symbiotic relationship between squirrels, the trees and the fungus. There's been a number of studies over the last decade or more that have shown how interconnected the forest is through mycorrhizae networks. So the connection of all the different fungus in the ground helps give nutrients to the trees, and the trees will actually give nutrients to other trees. And they kind of even can communicate through the ground. So it's this very interconnected network. So the squirrels will actually eat some of that fungus and spread the spores of that fungus, which helps the health of the soil and the trees. And then the trees are also feeding the squirrels with their, the inner bark and their pinecones. So very much a connected circle there with those three. They're also kind of on the lower level of the food chain. So, they're also then supporting other critters in the forest by providing themselves as prey, especially to say, goshawks and other predators and scavengers. Juli: Do you think the way they have this relationship with the forest, that changes that you guys see in the squirrel population or where they are, can tell you things about changes in the forest or vice versa? Or is there anything else that you think would be beneficial from studying this population? Houston: Yes, absolutely. And I think a lot of those questions are still arguably a ways off from being figured out. There have been a number of studies on the lives of these squirrels and how they make a living. But there's so many unknowns as well. The more we learn about any species, the more questions we have. So our number one goal currently at Grand Canyon is just to figure out how many squirrels do we have and where are they. Then we can start asking the questions of trends, habitat assessments. So we're also looking at why the population fluctuates, and we do not have a good bearing on that in the hundred years that we've been studying them. There's a number of hypotheses out there. And I could go through several of them here. One of which is a predator prey model I kind of alluded to earlier. So when you have lots of squirrels, you're probably going to have lots of critters eating them. So if we're looking at goshawks, which might be one of their primary predators, when you have high population of squirrels, you have a lot of goshawks, but then maybe there's getting to be too many goshawks and they're all hungry. And so they're starting to eat the squirrels faster than they can reproduce. And you could have a pretty big crash in the population because of that. So that's one leading theory. Drought and climate change also could very much have an impact on these squirrels. With long periods of drought, you might have trees that are more stressed and they're not producing as much of that inner bark that the squirrels are eating and maybe fewer pinecones as well. So that could certainly create a food scarcity for these squirrels. I've been hypothesizing, there's been some literature that shows that some plants are creating more tannins, kind of related to stress, but that has been tied directly to increases of CO2. Yeah, climate change is really interesting because it is impacting the landscape in so many different ways, in so many different areas. And this is especially important to research, because I understand the southwest may be hit exceptionally hard by some of projected climate change impacts, mostly related to heat and drought. So, with increases of CO2, they have shown in a variety of plants that these plants will actually produce more tannins. Some of that could be stress related. And you might get a similar result from drought. But with more tannins, the food becomes less nutritious and less appealing or less available overall. So, this has only been shown in a number of plant species. We have never in the scientific community, to my knowledge, looked at an increase of tannin production in Ponderosa itself. It has been shown in a number of other woody plant types. So we're wanting to pursue that avenue eventually. We just have so many questions to answer. But especially with climate being one of the big key issues of the day, it could be an avenue we go down. Drought could very much be a similar cause in an increase of tannin production, and therefore the food becomes less nutritious. With fewer nutrients and sugars in that food source, the squirrels just might not be reaching their calorie balance. For a lot of wildlife species, it's calories in, calories out equals survival as a way to boil it down. The literature has largely ruled out disease as one of the reasons for these big population crashes. But having been talking with our veterinarians recently, we believe there is reason to revisit some disease models, especially plague. It’s a cryptic disease that's hard to detect. And because these squirrels are at the bottom of the food chain, it's hard for us to get reliable samples really quickly, they just get snatched up by ravens and goshawks and other scavengers. So just because we haven't detected it yet doesn't mean that it's not there. And we do know Grand Canyon has plague. We have plague on both rims. Science has progressed and we do have more tests to determine if plague has been on the landscape previously because the survivors of plague will actually have essentially antibodies that help them survive that last epidemic. So we're going to hopefully be moving in that direction in the coming years to see if we can detect that as well. So kind of related to their population estimates. It's been a controversial subject whether or not this squirrel should be a hunted species. So of course, there is no hunting allowed within Grand Canyon National Park boundaries, but they are currently a hunted species on the forest. Over time, that's gotten a lot of pushback as well. So even back in the late 1800s, President Harrison and Roosevelt created the Grand Canyon Forest Reserve. That protection continued through, around the late 1930s with the Forest Service. By 1965, actually, the Kaibab Squirrel National Natural Landmark was established. Usually, National Natural Landmarks are designated for educational purposes or, sometimes cultural purposes. So it's not all that common for a species to be afforded a National Natural Landmark. But because they are so iconic with their bright white tails, I think that's part of the reason why they got that designation, which helps continue protection for them. So I was mentioning earlier, I was throwing out some numbers for how many squirrels we think exist. So as early as the 20s there's like 5 or 10,000 squirrels. But at the same time, a lot of people were concerned that there weren't that many squirrels around. So they got some biologists on the job, and they thought, well, you know, they're actually probably doing okay. By the 1960s, some newspapers and magazines really started to look at these squirrels, especially because the state was starting to talk about rescinding protection from hunting. So there was actually large public outcry in around 1964 to say, no, why would you hunt this squirrel? There's not even that many around. Like, what are we doing? So the state said, okay, we won't do it this year. And it actually potentially corresponded with a year of low turkey numbers. So they said, well, we'll just call off the turkey hunt and also call off the squirrel hunt. By 1965, though, pretty much the same year they created that Kaibab Squirrel National Natural Landmark, hunting became legal for these squirrels. And because it wasn't being publicized as much that following year, there wasn't as much public pushback and the squirrels became huntable. And that's remained the case ever since. That said, there has been occasional outcry, found some literature that showed in the early 70s and actually arguably currently now, there has been some pushback from the public, in part because those corresponded with years of pretty low squirrel numbers. So it starts to feel weird when you're still hunting a species, when you can't find any. But since we don't quite know their population dynamics, the causes for their booms and busts, that has been reason for us to have that concern. But it is also shown that maybe these squirrels are actually a little more resilient than we think. But again, we want to get a good handle on it before we let things go too far in either direction. So also in the early 70s, biologists were concerned about their population numbers. So they actually did a translocation of some Kaibab squirrels. So there actually is now an additional population of these squirrels. They're out kind of near Mount Logan or the Trumbull Wilderness. So that would be kind of, Western Grand Canyon still on the north side of the river, but kind of on the northwest corner of the park. Juli: Is that a common thing to take an endemic species and put them somewhere else? Houston: Fish and Wildlife Service has translocated or transplanted a number of species, especially when populations are low, to kind of hedge our bets. So if one population fails, hopefully that other population may persist. And they do that for a lot of terrestrial species, number of fish species can be moved to avoid predation or hybridization. Just depends on the species. But it is a semi common approach to, it's really to hedge our bets. So that's what they did then. And you can still find Kaibab squirrels out in that country as well. So these squirrels can live, it's estimated 3 to 4 years in the wild. In a zoo, the longest recorded has been about nine years. They're having, I think I mentioned, like, three litters a year. Just depends on the year. And some year they may only have one litter just depending on the food resources available. But they have to reproduce quickly because they're gobbled up so quickly too. They are pretty low on the food chain. Some estimates show like a 50% mortality rate. So they have to breed fairly quickly to keep up with that. And that's also why your population could have these big swings. You can crash pretty quick if everyone's getting eaten, but luckily, they can reproduce fairly quickly to make up for it when times are good. Juli: I was curious of when they have a litter like what that survival rate is, and if it's mostly because of predation, the ones that don't make it? And also, are there any in zoos right now? Houston: I'm unaware of zoos that are advertising their Kaibab squirrels, but it's not to say they're not there. I'm sure there are tassel eared squirrel subspecies in zoos, and they're all pretty related so they'll have similar lifespans and similar habits in a lot of ways. So, yeah, survivability of young is probably more related to predation than not. And it's really about 50%. So about as high as an adult. So they do time their litters with the season. So usually, their first will be in spring, and May or June more often than not. Then they can have a mid-summer litter. And then I think we just had perhaps our last litter recently. There's been a lot of squirrel sightings this fall. So I'm hopeful they've actually had three litters this year. And some anecdotal evidence is showing we might have had that. So it might have been a pretty good year for a Kaibab squirrel. Juli: Cool. Thanks, Houston. Houston: Yeah, no thank you. Keep up the good work. We appreciate you educating the public and getting the word out. We all are in love with the squirrels here and we want to just make sure they're doing well. Juli: The Behind the Scenery Podcast is brought to you by the interpretation team at Grand Canyon National Park. Special thanks to Houston Thompson for this episode. We gratefully acknowledge the Native peoples on whose ancestral homelands we gather, as well as the diverse and vibrant Native communities who make their home here today.

Disregarding the tongue-in-cheek podcast title, three Grand Canyon Rangers sit down for a fun roundtable discussion about park ranger work, lifestyles, and stereotypes. There are many perspectives on park ranger life, this episode explores the experience of three individuals. What are some mystiques, myths, and misconceptions about your profession? --- TRANSCRIPT: --- Soft guitar and singing: Momma’s don’t let your babies grow up to be rangers Don’t let them hike trails and camp where there’s dangers Let ‘em be friendly and be kind to strangers Mammas don’t let your babies grow up to be Rangers ‘Cause they’ll never stay home, and they’ll always roam Somewhere its pretty and nice Doug: what are the common myths and images that people have in their mind when you mention that you work for the National Park Service as a ranger? They definitely think I live in a log cabin in the woods. Jesse: We DO live in a log cabin in the woods. Ceili: That’s true! Chuckles ... Ranger Doug: Are there really bears down at the bottom of the Grand Canyon? Do you need a forestry degree to become a park ranger? And, do Grand Canyon rangers really live, rent-free, in historic cabins in the woods? Hello folks. I am ranger Doug, from the North Rim of Grand Canyon National Park. During the height of the COVID pandemic, North Rim rangers started producing podcasts. And this was a safe way of connecting with park visitors without having face-to-face contact. In the fall of 2020, I sat down with a couple co-workers. We recorded a conversation about what it means to be a park ranger at Grand Canyon National Park looking at the ranger lifestyles, job hiring, stereotypes and more. Recently I dug out that old recording and decided to polish it into a finished podcast. You may hear muffled voices as some of us were wearing protective facemasks. Today’s podcast title is: Momma Don’t Let Your Babies Grow Up to be Rangers This title is obviously a tongue-in-cheek spoof, kinda a take-off, of that old country Western song, sung by Waylon Jennings and Willie Nelson. We all love being Grand Canyon park rangers. In the podcast, we will, however, take a close look at some common myths and mystiques and misconceptions about rangering at Grand Canyon National Park. I also invited my ranger friends Shiri, Dave, and Hannah to join me in singing a fun, parody, ending song, of the same title. So, sit back and please enjoy the podcast. Jeffery: How would you describe your line of work? A stay at home parent? A business executive? A park ranger at Grand Canyon National Park? Whatever your profession, it’s likely there’s a few misconceptions about it. Hi, I’m Jeffrey a park ranger at Grand Canyon National Park and you’re listening to Behind the Scenery podcast. Have you ever dreamed of leaving your city job and urban life to move somewhere pretty? What’s it really like to live and work at a National Park like the Grand Canyon? Recently, three of my park ranger co-workers sat down to discuss this subject and more. One ranger even called in from the very bottom of the Grand Canyon, from the Phantom Ranch Ranger Station, to join the conversation. I will let them introduce themselves. Doug: My name is ranger Doug. Jesse: I’m Jesse. Ceili: I’m Ceili. Doug: And we’re here today to look at Park Ranger Mystiques, Myths and Misconceptions. The first question I have for you guys: When you go to a backyard BBQ and you happen to mention you’re a park ranger at Grand Canyon National Park, what are the common myths and images that people have in their mind when you mention that you work for the National Park Service as a ranger? For me, you know, I think people have the image that I sit in a fire lookout all day long, and I get to write the great American novel and watch sunsets for free. I think they think that I drive around in a pickup truck all day long and I get to count elk off in the woods. And they definitely think that I live in a log cabin in the woods. What are some of the reactions you get from folks? Jesse: We DO live in a log cabin in the woods so that’s accurate. Ceili: That’s true! Um, I well if people have some kind of image about what it is I do, it’s usually like they’re usually unsure about it and they usually ask “so do you just hike around?” I think a lot of people assume that you’re, I’m hiking around inspecting, or like enforcing rules. I would say though, most people look at me kind of blankly and don’t even ask questions. Like they’re not even they have no idea and don’t even try to figure it out. Those are the kind of, there are different kinds of backyard BBQs the ones I am picturing people have no concept of what’s happening at the Grand Canyon at all. And I will say they always, they always talk about the uniform is what they talk about even if they have no idea what I do and don’t even ask questions or pretend to know what I do. They do know what they think I should be wearing. Jesse: People really are into the flat hat, which is my least favorite uniform item, but lots of folks seem to love it. Ceili: I have to explain that I actually don’t wear that very much. (Chuckle) Jesse: Try to avoid it as much as possible. Doug: And I’m just the opposite. I love wearing my ranger hat and wear it to work every day even if I have no public contacts. But another thing I see very commonly, if I’m chatting with somebody in the grocery line at the grocery store, and I mention I’m a park ranger. Then they instantly they start telling me their bear encounters. “Oh I …” Ceili: I have experienced that, actually. Doug: Yes, and its either they’re telling you their bear stories, their deer stories, or camping stories. Jesse: That’s nice. I like hearing those kinds of stories. Ceili: Yea, I had a couple times that people just dive into their bear encounters. And then at the end they ask “are there bears at the Grand Canyon?” I’m like “No, not really.” (chuckles) Doug: Well, so, what are some of the stereotypical profiles of a park ranger that you think the general public has in their minds? What comes to mind? Jesse: I mean, I, I, think like a bearded male. Ceili: Like you, Jesse! Jesse: Yea, I am the stereotype. Doug: But it has to be a “John Muir” beard. It has to be a long beard and you have to live in the woods and you have to be a rugged individualist, and you have to work by yourself. I think those are some of the stereotypes the public often has. Ceili: Yea, I think your list Doug, that you put out recently, was pretty spot on as far as stereotypical image. Doug: Yea, no office work, we’re outside working by ourselves, all day long, we’re also all knowing. We know every single plant and animal. The Latin names. Jesse: That part is true. (laughs!) Doug: That’s an expectation. But you and you have to have a scientific mind, of course, to be able to memorize all those Latin names of all those flowers. Ceili: Yea, and actually that reminds me of like going back to what people think when you tell them what you do they often assume you have a biology or an environmental science degree. Jesse: Yea. Ceili: Which is not usually true, actually. Or not always true. Doug: Doesn’t our boss have a music degree? Jesse: She has a Masters degree in percussion performance. I have a friend who is an interpretive ranger who has an architecture degree. I have a history degree. Like, Ceili: And then I’m always bummed because I actually have an environmental science degree (laughs) so I am not able to break the stereotype for them. (More laughs) Doug: I know but I think the image is that you have to be a botanist, or a biologist, or have a park management degree or something in the natural or cultural resources Ceili: Yea, they always ask if you have a forestry degree. Doug: So that brings up a very important stereotype that I think we can do some myth busting right now. What’s the difference between a forest ranger and a park ranger? Ceili: Well isn’t isn’t the difference like if there’s a national forest, the United States Forest Service, and the National Park Service are different things. So if you work for the Forest Service maybe you’re a forest ranger? If you work for the Park Service you’re a park ranger? Doug: The US Forest Service manages all the Forests in America. And they are under the Department of Agriculture. And whenever you drive into a National Forest you always see the sign that says: “Land of Many Uses.” Jesse: Which means, basically like all the cool stuff want to do in a national park but it’s against the rules, you can do in a National Forest. Doug: So, for example, there are commercial consumptive uses of the resources. You can have timber contracts, you can have mining, you can have grazing, you can hunt in National Forests. Jesse: You can have fires if there are no fire restrictions, you can dispersed camp. Doug: Many uses. Jesse: You can fly your drone. Doug: But national parks, on the other hand, they’re in a separate department of government, under Department of Interior. The reason I think the US Forest Service is Department Agriculture because the trees are thought to be a consumptive renewable resource. But most of the other land managing agencies in the federal government fall under the Department of Interior, which the National Park Service does. So forest rangers work for the US Forest Service. Park rangers work for the National Park Service under Department of Interior. Jesse: Yea, I mean it’s all fairly confusing if you’re not like immersed in this world because there’re Forest Service which is Agriculture which is strange. There’s Bureau of Land Management which is similar to Forest Service but also under the Department of Interior. Then there’s Park Service. Doug: And there’s Fish and Wildlife Service Jesse: Yea. Doug: It gets confusing for the poor public. I feel their pain if they get confused about it. But going back to park employees, there are different types of park employees that work in national parks that aren’t necessarily park rangers. So who are some of them? Ceili: Like the trail crew? Doug: Well I was thinking of park concessionaires. Ceili: Oh. Doug: The people that make the beds, and pump the gas and work in the restaurants, and the lodges and what not. Those are park employees, they wear uniforms, but they are not employees of the National Park Service. They’re not park rangers as such. Ceili: Yea. But then there are also employees of the National Park Service that wear Park Service uniforms that are not actually park rangers. Like it’s not their titles. Like the trail crew, I was talking to the trail crew the other day and they’re like “people always stop us and think that we’re park rangers.” But that’s not part of their position description at all. Like their job. They’re trail crew. They’re Park Service trail crew and they’re not rangers and they wouldn’t wear a flat hat ever. Doug: There’s a big diversity of national park employees that work at Grand Canyon and other national parks that aren’t the typical rangers that wear the ranger hat. You mentioned the trail crew. They fall probably under the maintenance division. Jesse: Yea. Doug: So you have buildings and utilities folks. Somebody has to maintain the water and sewer systems at Grand Canyon. Somebody has to plow the roads, manage the road contracts and all those things. So the maintenance division is a big part of any park operations and they are not typically seen as park rangers. Ceili: And all the scientists too. All the people that do behind the scenes doing research. They’re not rangers. Doug: That’s right. So you have the natural and cultural resources folks. For example, we have a bison herd here on the North Rim. We have folks that work full time trying to manage that and other aspects of the natural and cultural resources in this huge national park. Jesse: Yea, I mean basically, like anything that needs to get done in any town also needs to get done at a National Park. So yea, we have like you said, Doug, we have people that who maintain the roads and buildings. And uh, we have water utilities. I think we probably have the most exciting water utilities job in the country. Our water utility folks who get flown in to the canyon to work on the water pipeline. And they are often on rappel and on rope to do their repairs. Ceili: And I think some of them are the highest paid employees in the Park Service. Jesse: (Laughs) They probably should be! Doug: Yea, it’s pretty important to have water in any national park, especially at the Grand Canyon. Jesse: Yea, and we have like IT specialists, administrative officers, and law enforcement officers, and, yea, everything that needs to get done in a town needs to get done here too. So we have all those jobs. Doug: So let’s talk a little bit about the difference between law enforcement and emergency service rangers and the folks that we are. We work in interpretation, the people that do the walks and talks. We use the term interpretation differently. It doesn’t mean language interpretation. It means trying to help folks connect with the natural resources and tell the park stories. But there are national park rangers that drive patrol vehicles. That operate the emergency equipment and respond to emergencies. And those are vital national park rangers in any national park. Ceili: Yea, and law enforcement rangers can do interpretation, but interpretation rangers can’t do law enforcement. Jesse: That’s an important distinction. (Laughs) Doug: So not every park employee that wears a badge has law enforcement authority. And actually the national park rangers here at the Grand Canyon and elsewhere that do have formal law enforcement training and authority wear a slightly different badge than the rest of us wear. Ceili: It’s bigger. Jesse: Bigger and fancier. Ceili: Yea. Jesse: I think that’s one of the more confusing things for people. That, like everyone who wears a badge doesn’t necessarily do the same thing. I get mistaken for a law enforcement ranger quite often. Um, however, there is an odd venn diagram where, like you said, Ceili, law enforcement rangers can do interpretation, but interpreters can’t do law enforcement. However, for both types of rangers can do emergency services: search and rescue, and EMS response. So, uh, Doug: And that has happened fairly regularly here at the North Rim. I’m a first-year ranger working here and I see the interpretive rangers cooperating regularly with, if there’s a missing person or distressed hiker or an actual ambulance call out from our park dispatch to attend an heart issue down at the lodge or elsewhere. Ah, whoever’s available law enforcement or inperp rangers often jump in and help out on those medicals on a regular basis. Ceili: Yea, and I’m down at Phantom Ranch right now its, ah, the North Rim and Phantom Ranch are similar in that way because its, there’s not that much staff down here or on the North Rim. So that’s one of the best parts of the job here I think is that anything that law enforcement or emergency services needs help with down here which is just one other person here at the ranger station, um, if they need help it’s the interpreter that’s gonna help. If there’s an emergency and you have a ranger program about scorpions happening in five minutes, it’s the emergency that’s gonna take precedents over the scorpions, unfortunately. Doug: And I thinks more typical in the smaller park operations across America. Not all of our 400+ national park units are the size and sophistication of Grand Canyon National Park. There may be a small historic home, or a small battlefield or other site that is managed by the National Park Service, they might have the staff of five or six people. So it doesn’t matter what your job is, you’re out shoveling the walks in them morning before the visitor center opens. You might be helping out with park maintenance even though that’s not your primary job. So the smaller park areas I think have greater diversity and more overlap of job duties. Ceili: Yea. And that part if it is so fun, to me. Doug: So let’s go back to the stereotype profile and lets do some myth-busting on the typical image that people might have of a male, bearded, rugged individualist ranger. What the reality here at the North Rim for example. Ceili: Oh, I have a great story about that. But its at Phantom, not at the North Rim but it’s still good. Last tour, there was a guy, a hiker that had some sort of like possibly kidney issue or back problem, a couple different issues going on. And so we were going to medivac him out. And the helicopter landed and I was sitting with him on the porch here and the law enforcement ranger that was down here at the time went over to brief the flight medic about what was going on. Then he and the flight medic were walking back to the porch and even, even I expected the flight medic to look a very certain way. A little bit different than stereotypical park ranger, but still a bearded man and with a certain kind of outfit on. But no, it was Meghan. She’s one of my favorite people that works in the park. And she looked so epic (laughs) so it boggled my mind. I was not expecting a woman to walk up as the flight medic. And it was her. And she’s also someone I know so I felt comfortable with. So it was a funny moment for me because I thought I was not, I thought that I was kind of immune to those stereotypes, but I’m totally not. And I was so impressed with how she worked. Um, which, that doesn’t surprise me, but it just felt really cool to have my own stereotypes to be challenged. Doug: So you don’t have to be a, to have a John Muir beard to be a park ranger at the Grand Canyon. So, I did the math. We have 11 summertime rangers working here at the North Rim in our division which includes North Rim rangers and Canyon rangers like you. And six of the 11 are women. So we have a pretty even gender mixture here. Our boss here, our overall boss is a woman. We have two summertime lead rangers. One’s a man, one’s a woman. So I think we have fairly integrated gender balance in our immediate work group. Uh, three, we are currently on our third National Park Service woman Director this century for the whole National Park Service. Two of the last three superintendents of Grand Canyon National Park have been women as well. And, you know, there’s still a ways to go with diversity in the National Park Service. Ceili: Yea, I was thinking about my extrication training that I did last week, which was so fun and I loved it. But it was probably, um there were probably 15 or 20 people in that training and just two of us were women. And I have been in other emergency services trainings, and search and rescue training where it’s very much even and even the instructors are women. And I agree that a lot of our leadership directly are women. But that, you know, when you’re getting into ripping doors off of cars, still very much male dominated. Doug: So part of that stereotype I think is still true. That is still probably a male-dominated profession. But there is some gender uh equality sneaking into the male profession. How about education? What are the education requirements to be a national park ranger? Jesse: It depends on what kind of ranger you want to be. But anywhere from high school diploma to a Master’s Degree. Doug: Typically, the uniformed national park interpretive rangers have a four year degree. And as we know, it can be in music, it can be in economics it can be in anything. Ceili: And then while the science and resource management aren’t rangers, they are Park Service employees that probably some of them have PhD’s on what they’re studying, I would imagine. Doug: Yea, I have worked with plenty of seasonals who have Master’s and doctorate degrees. So that’s kind of something that I’ve seen as a trend in the National Park Service. My co-workers as usually highly educated. I feel like a village idiot with just a bachelor’s degree often. (laughter). I’m just really impressed by the caliber of the summertime rangers and even supervisors that I’ve worked with over the years. Okay, so let’s talk a little bit about how you get a national park ranger job. Because you just open up an email one day and suddenly you are sent to another park. Isn’t that how it works? Jesse: (laughter) No. Ceili: Fortunately, not. Jesse: Fortunately, yea. No. You have to this process through the USAJOBS.GOV web site. There might be 300 other qualified applicants for a single job so usually you apply for many jobs. I remember one spring I applied to 65 jobs and I heard back from I think three of those. So, it’s a pretty competitive process. But you do apply for a specific location. Specific parks and specific jobs within those parks. Doug: And it’s not easy to figure out the hiring system. If you dream of being a national park ranger some day you basically need to have a park ranger put their arm around you and walk you through the system. For example, we know ahead of time that there are three days, three successive days in November where they’re going to post all the summer for all of the national parks. You basically have two days, one to two days, to go onto USAJOBS. GOV, figure out the system, and apply, rate yourself, and have a fighting chance of getting a summer job. If you don’t meet those deadlines, you are done for the 2021 hiring season. Ceili: And even if you do meet those deadlines, and your resume is not the exact correct format, like down to the punctuation and the spacing, with like your dates and hours that you’ve worked certain jobs, then you still won’t be qualified. So you’ve got to find yourself a personal park ranger to help you through that. I’m always willing to do that because I could not have done it without help. And I don’t think anyone could probably figure it out without help so I’m always willing to help people figure it out. Doug: Very complicated. Jesse: Yea, I think that’s why most people in the park service start through internships cause those are much easier to get and also it also gives you the opportunity to learn that hiring process. Doug: Yea, that’s an excellent point, Jesse. You basically need some type of foot-in-the-door to get paid, to eventually get a paid summer job. And of course, once you work multiple summers as a paid ranger, often times people want to make a career out of it and that’s a whole another level of competition and hoops you have to jump through to possibly become a career ranger. Ceili: Yea, Jesse just spent almost a decade trying to do that. Jesse: (laughs) Yea, and I still haven’t achieved that! Doug: Still working on it! And you’re a second-generation park employee too. Jesse: Yea. That’s right. Doug: So it’s not an easy profession to break in to, but it’s very desirable. Now how about housing? We get free housing, right? Ceili/Jesse: No. Doug: We don’t? (laughter) Doug; That’s a common misconception. That oh man, not only do you get to work in these beautiful national park areas, but you get to live in a cabin off in the woods and it’s all rent free. No it’s not. Jesse: Depending where you are though, it is pretty cheap. Doug: It can be cheap, but it’s based on, we have to drive 85 miles to get to the closest library, medical services, and groceries. So often times if you are in a remoter area like we are, they cut the rents down. But it’s never free. You always pay rent to stay in park housing. Ceili: It comes right out of your paycheck. Jesse: It’s based on your local rents in the local area. So if you work at the Grand Canyon, rent is pretty cheap, but if you work at Sequoia/Kings Canyon it’s based on Fresno so it’s a lot more expensive. If you work at Hawaii Volcanoes, it’s based on Hilo which is REALLY expensive. Um, so it can be quite expensive depending on where you are. Doug: So let’s talk about pay a little bit. Most summertime rangers are GS-5, 16 bucks an hour or so. And that’s, you’re lucky to get a GS-5, so-called entry level job, as a GS-5 requiring a four-year degree as a minimum, and 16 bucks an hour plus change. Ceili: Doesn’t sound good when you put it that way. (laughter) Doug: But you know, many of the folks that I have been associated with over the years, they don’t go into the park profession uh with the thought in mind that they’re going to be rich financially. Jesse: Yea, because that would be a bad plan! Ceili: Yea, that’s for sure true. (Chuckles) Doug; Yea, you are going to be very disappointed. Especially if you start as an intern, as a volunteer and work your way up, obviously it has nothing to do with going home with a big paycheck. So, I think that’s a common myth that we make a livable wage. We don’t make high pay but that’s not a motivation for most of us to get into the park profession. So any other misconceptions, myths, mystiques before we wrap things up here? Jesse: Probably the question people ask me most frequently at the park when they find out I work only in the summer is, “Oh, what are you doing this winter? Do they just assign you to another park?” And that’s not the case. You just have to figure it out. They just let us go then. A lot of folks are like ski instructors, some people are teachers. Some people just travel. Some people just piece odd jobs together. Some people don’t work. Ceili: Some people just watch Netflix. Jesse: Yea. (laughs) Doug: Some people like me are lucky and retired. So I have Social Security to help me out in the winter. But money is important, obviously. You have to make a living, but it’s usually not a motivator to get into this park profession. So here’s how I would like to end. I wanna hear what you guys, how you would answer this question. What’s the best part of being a park ranger, or the best part of being a Grand Canyon ranger for you? Jesse? Jesse: I think for me it’s, it’s a couple things. It’s being so close to the Grand Canyon or whatever national park you’re working in, and the natural beauty and the opportunities for recreation that are here um right out your doorstep. Um it’s also not having to deal with anything that comes with living in a city. That’s a big motivation for me being out here. Like if I am in traffic for more than a few minutes I get really frustrated really quickly. And also the community that forms around national parks I find to be really supportive and fun and thoughtful and, and engaging. So I really like the people that are here. Doug: Ceili? Ceili: I think for me the best part of this job, I think that in this particular place, in our work group we are really encouraged to be really creative in our work and take risks in our ranger programs and our interpretation and in how we interact with people and um in our collaboration too. We kind of, we are encouraged to be creative and do thing differently. And that’s so fun for me. And then, also, I’m not sure if this is unique to Grand Canyon or to this job, but what I do every day has such a wide variety. You could have, you know, a good solid plan for your day, and then you could be, you could be dealing with something totally different all day, unexpectedly. Like a medical call or something. The then the opportunity to gain skills is so, there are so many opportunities here. Like I was in extrication training last week learning how to rip doors off of cars. You know we did high-angle rescue training recently too. So I don’t know what other job I could do that would give me all those opportunities to gain so many cool skills. Yea, so it’s kind of a combination of all those things that I like the best. Doug: Okay, for me I would say would be number one is living and working in the park. Kind of echoing what Jesse said, I’ve got trails right out my doors that I can enjoy on my weekends and off hours. I sat in my lawn chair out in front of my cabin, and yes, I have the same, meeting that stereotype, I live in a cabin. It’s not a log cabin, but it’s a cabin and I live in the woods. So I’m livin’ that dream. And I get to look at the Aspens turning color this time of year. So just living and working in a park setting is number one for me. And number two is the co-workers. I am surrounded by really talented and creative folks which kind of feeds my creative juices as well. I have inspirational bosses that I look up to as role models that support and encourage me in my work and my career. And one thing I have learned, especially during the COVID-19 summer of 2020 is how much I miss meeting and greeting and interacting with the visitors. That’s a big part of what motivates me to come back and work in the parks is you meet folks that are like-minded, that enjoy the out-of-doors and want to learn the history or hear the stories of whatever national park you’re in. And that are kind of blank slates. Often these folks are very receptive to whatever the story is in the park. And I gain a lot of inspiration from the visitors and learn a lot from them hearing their stories and what brings them out to the parks. Just engaging with the visitors, I very much miss that this year, even though sometimes I complain about a long shift in the visitor center talking to visitors all day long. I wish for that. I long for that. And I know that is an important part of the ranger job. So, anything else here before we wrap up? Ceili: Uh, yea, I’ll agree with that. The other day, two days ago was like the busiest day on the trail I’ve ever seen. I’ve probably talked to more people than in all of 2020. And I thought it would be draining, but it was so energizing. I think I went faster than I usually, I hiked faster than I usually do because I was so excited talking to all the people. (laughs) Doug: So, if there are kids out there, and you dream some day of breathing, breathing fresh, national park air, enjoying beautiful national park views, and having low pay, then you’ve found the right profession. (laughs) Go into park ranger work. It’s great. It’s not for everybody. But for us that are lucky enough to call ourselves national park rangers it’s a great profession. Doug: My name is ranger Doug Jesse: I’m Jesse. Ceili: I’m Ceili. Doug: And thank you for listening to us today. Have a safe and pleasant future. Ceili: Yay! Jeffery: I hope you enjoyed our conversation with Ceili, Jesse, and Doug, and I hope you gained a bit of insight into our park ranger work and our lives. What is the best part of your day job? What brings you the most work satisfaction? Before we leave, I’d like to gratefully acknowledge the Native peoples on whose ancestral homelands we gather, as well as the diverse and vibrant Native communities who make their home here today. Doug: I thought you folks might like a quick update since the podcast was first recorded in 2020. First off, pay for entry level National Park Service interpretive rangers has soared all the way up to 19 dollars per hour. Yoohooooo! A total of seven different North Rim rangers contributed to this podcast. I thought it might be fun to do a quick: where-are-they-now update on their lives. Ranger Ceili, who phoned in from the bottom of the Grand Canyon, returned to school in her winter off-seasons. She recently earned her teacher’s certificate and master’s degree. After logging 5,200 Grand Canyon hiking miles, as an inner-canyon ranger, she has left the Park Service and is now a sixth grade school teacher. She received a surprise THANK YOU letter from the park’s superintendent at her going away party, thanking her for her seven seasons of outstanding public service to the park. Ranger Shiri was an intern ranger when she sang on our ending parody song. She is now a paid summertime ranger at nearby Zion National Park in Utah. Ranger Hannah, who also sang on our song, took a promotion, and now works in Colorado’s Mesa Verde National Park. Ranger Hannah and I collaborated in recording several Behind the Scenery podcasts. You might hear her singing a few fun songs. Ranger Dave joined us in singing the ending song too. He promoted into his current North Rim job and has become an expert podcast editor. He too has contributed to the long list of the many Grand Canyon Behind the Scenery podcasts. Ranger Jesse, in his 10-year effort, has finally landed a full-time, career, National Park Service job. He is a park supervisor on the North Rim. So, good for him. Well deserved, my friend! Ranger Jesse and I collaborated on recording my favorite Grand Canyon podcast. The title is “Dude, it’s just a rock.” Give it a listen. You’ll love the really corny parody song we recorded for that one! Summertime ranger Jeffery was hired into the permanent ranks as a maintenance and facility worker. He learned how to operate all of the park’s heavy equipment: backhoes, loaders, road graders, trucks. He became the North Rim’s primary wintertime snow remover two years ago. He continued rising through the ranks, and now he is in charge of the entire North Rim maintenance and facilities operations on the North Rim. Way to go, Jeffery! As for me, I spent winter off-seasons volunteering at Pinnacles and Channel Islands National Parks in California. I have returned for 5 straight summers, to the North Rim of the Grand Canyon. I’m loving life, baby. Enjoying cabin living. Still in the woods! Hiking the trails. And still taking home low pay. All with a huge smile on my face. Every single day. Now, where’s my guitar, I know it’s around here, oh, here it is. Soft guitar and singing: Rangers ain’t easy to love and we’re harder to hold We’d rather camp in the woods and out in the cold Hats with a flat brim and boots that are smelly Whenever we go on patrol We hike in the canyon, and don’t need no companion Just want a trail for a goal Mammas don’t let your babies grow up to be Rangers Don’t let them hike trails, and camp where there’s dangers Let ‘em be friendly and be kind to strangers Mammas don’t let your babies grow up to be Rangers ‘Cause they’ll never stay home, and they’ll always roam Somewhere its pretty and nice Rangers like smoky old cabins and clear mountain mornings Cute little chipmunks, squirrels, and the stars at night Rangers go down in the canyon and hike to the river We check on the trail, weather, and water And try to make it all right Momma’s don’t let your babies grow up to be rangers Don’t let them hike trails and camp where there’s dangers Let ‘em be friendly and be kind to strangers Mammas don’t let your babies grow up to be Rangers ‘Cause they’ll never stay home, and they’ll always roam Somewhere its pretty and nice