Behind the Stories: Building Season 4 with Overloaded Technical Producer Nathan Fink

Behind the Stories: Building Season 4 with Overloaded Technical Producer Nathan Fink

Today's episode included the following speakers (in the order they appear): Host: Luke Waldo Guest: * Nathan Fink, chief advancement officer at Family Connects [https://www.familyconnects.org/]; former visiting professor of writing, rhetoric, and discourse at DePaul University; former podcast host of New Hampshire Family Now [https://www.nhchildrenstrust.org/nhfn]; and technical producer of Season 4 of Overloaded. Also featured (archival clips from the season): * Dr. Nadine Burke Harris, Dr. Bruce Perry, Desmond Meade, Rinku Sen, Valerie Frost, Tshaka Barrows, Prudence Beidler Carr, Shary Tran 00:15–03:34 – Luke Waldo Luke opens the season finale by bringing his technical producer, Nathan Fink, to the foreground for the first time. After a season of conversations about the science, strategy, and humanity of storytelling, this episode steps behind the curtain to examine how the season was actually made: the choices, tensions, creative principles, and behind-the-scenes partnership that shaped what listeners heard.  03:34–11:03 – Luke Waldo and Nathan Fink: How the Season Began Luke and Nathan trace the season's origin to the 2025 Prevent Child Abuse America [https://www.preventchildabuse.org/] conference in Portland, Oregon, where they recorded interviews for PCAA's podcast, The Shift [https://preventchildabuse.org/the-shift-voices-of-prevention/], with Dr. Nadine Burke Harris, Dr. Bruce Perry, Desmond Meade, and others. These were standalone interviews with no designed connective tissue between them. But across almost every conversation, Luke began hearing the same thread: the stories we tell ourselves, and how those stories either keep us stuck or open new possibilities. Nathan describes the balance their partnership found. Luke brings deep field expertise and years of practice in the subject matter; Nathan brings a storyteller's instinct and a journalist's ear for what's actually being said versus what's being asked. The creative principle they landed on: do the preparation thoroughly, then let go of it in the room. Be in the conversation you're in, not the one you planned. Nathan illustrates this with a reference to Charlie Parker, who said if he had to practice one thing for his whole life he'd practice scales, because when he got on stage, he forgot everything he'd practiced, he lived in it. 15:45–23:37 – Luke Waldo and Nathan Fink: How Season 4 Took Shape Luke describes the creative genesis of Season 4: the Portland interviews were not yet a season, but a recurring pattern was becoming visible. Every major conversation, whether about brain science, voting rights, clinical psychology, or child welfare, kept returning to the stories we tell ourselves and how those stories trap us or liberate us. Dr. Nadine Burke Harris named it explicitly. Tshaka Barrows named it through the railroad tracks metaphor. Desmond Meade named it through the power of a single question asked across political divides. The season's connective thread emerged from those patterns: if we can't challenge harmful mental models, no amount of evidence will shift the systems built on them. Luke credits Dr. Burke Harris's "code card" metaphor as a turning point; the idea that a new narrative, like a medical response protocol, has to be practiced until it becomes the reflexive response, not just understood intellectually. This crystallized the role of Jess Moyer and the FrameWorks Institute [https://www.frameworksinstitute.org/] as the season's co-pilot; providing not just insights, but the discipline and methodology to move from telling good stories to building narratives that embed themselves and shift mental models over time. Luke notes that the title Overloaded itself came from FrameWorks' work with Prevent Child Abuse America on reframing childhood adversity. 27:00–37:05 – Luke Waldo and Nathan Fink: Standout Episodes and Creative Choices Luke names Episode 7 (Do Stories Really Work? [https://overloaded-understanding-neglect.simplecast.com/episodes/do-stories-really-work]) as possibly his favorite episode across all four seasons, crediting Nathan's editing artistry for weaving Megan McGee, Rinku Sen, Tarik Moody, Jess Moyer and Dr. Uri Hasson into a coherent, propulsive narrative that demonstrated the very principles it was describing. Episode 9 (Recipes for Success: Building Community Through Food, Art, and Culture [https://overloaded-understanding-neglect.simplecast.com/episodes/recipes-for-success-building-community-through-food-art-and-culture]) emerged from a pattern neither of them had anticipated: nearly every guest, unprompted, returned to the power of shared meals and sensory experience as the prerequisite for genuine connection and narrative change. * Design principle: Nathan describes the odd-numbered collage episodes as "I'm not going to tell you anymore, I'm going to show you," using ambient sound, music, and first-person voices to create the experience of connection rather than just describing it. 38:00–48:26 – Luke Waldo and Nathan Fink: Hard Decisions and Political Terrain Luke and Nathan address one of the season's most difficult creative decisions: the inclusion of an immigration raid clip in Episode 8, sourced from a 2012 news report during the Shattered Families [https://www.raceforward.org/research/reports/shattered-families] segment with Rinku Sen. Luke's initial reaction when he heard it was visceral; it startled him, and his instinct was to protect listeners who might be personally affected by what was happening in Minneapolis at the time of recording. Nathan's perspective: the clip was chosen deliberately to show how far the goalposts had moved over a decade, and to make the abstract concrete. His question was whether the podcast could keep listeners who held dominant narratives, even unwittingly, engaged long enough for the counter-narrative to land. Drawing on Rinku Sen's teaching, both agreed that you can speak to people, but you cannot speak at them. * Key insight: When we lead with content that triggers rage or fear, we activate the amygdala and close off the reflective, integrative parts of the brain. People cannot hear a better narrative if they are in survival mode. This is not a reason to avoid difficulty; it is a reason to sequence it carefully. 53:25–1:04:11 – Luke Waldo and Nathan Fink: The Season's Core Lessons Luke and Nathan distill what the season ultimately taught them, both as practitioners and as storytellers: * Relationship before narrative. No matter how well-crafted the message, it will not land without a prior relationship of trust. This was the clearest lesson from Rinku Sen, Desmond Meade, and Pardeep Singh Kaleka. * Narrative change requires discipline, not just talent. The new frame must be practiced and repeated until it becomes the reflexive response, the code card, not a one-time performance. * Center what has been invisible. The powerful don't need help staying centered in the narrative. The work is to platform the stories, strengths, and humanity of those who have been shrouded by reductive dominant narratives. * We have to get back in front of each other. The algorithmically siloed, amygdala-inflamed moment we are in demands a return to presence: shared meals, uncomfortable conversations, genuine contact across difference. That is the prerequisite. 1:04:11–1:14:36 – Luke Waldo and Nathan Fink: What Comes Next Luke closes with gratitude to the season's full cast of contributors: the guests from The Shift at the PCAA conference, the narrative change strategists, the systems thinkers, the community builders, and the truth tellers and lived experience leaders. He reflects on the season's sound design: the ambient sounds of spring and subtle instrumentation were chosen deliberately to till the soil and create the internal conditions in listeners for openness before the harder conversations began. Nathan closes with an invitation: don't let the season end here. Circulate it. Use it with your teams, partners, and communities. The podcast is not the destination. The relationships and practices it points toward are. Luke: "Let this be the beginning." Reach out to Luke at lwaldo@childrenswi.org [lwaldo@childrenswi.org] for supportive materials to continue reflection and learning. Closing Credits Join the conversation and connect with us! * Visit our podcast page [https://uwm.edu/icfw/podcast/] on our ICFW website to learn more about the experts you hear in this series. * Subscribe, rate our show and leave feedback in the comments section. * Sign up for our Strong Families, Thriving Children, Connected Communities initiative [https://uwm.edu/icfw/strong-families-thriving-children-connected-communities-initiative/#signup]. * Follow the Institute for Child and Family Well-being on Facebook [https://www.facebook.com/institutechildfamilywellbeing], Instagram [https://www.instagram.com/institutechildfamilywellbeing/] and LinkedIn [https://www.linkedin.com/company/institute-for-child-and-family-well-being/posts/?feedView=all&viewAsMember=true].

Offering Up a Positive Vision with Jessica Moyer

Host: Luke Waldo Co-Pilot / Guest: Jessica Moyer – FrameWorks Institute [https://www.frameworksinstitute.org/] Clip Speakers: * Prudence Beidler Carr - American Bar Association's Center on Children and the Law [https://www.americanbar.org/groups/public_interest/child_law/] * Claudia Rowe – Author of Wards of the State: The Long Shadow of American Foster Care [https://www.claudiarowe.com/wards-of-the-state] * Valerie Frost [https://www.valeriefrost.com/] - National Lived Expert * Rinku Sen - Narrative Initiative [https://narrativeinitiative.org/] * Dr. Pegah Faed - Safe and Sound [https://www.safeandsound.org/] * Pardeep Singh Kaleka - Mental Health America of Wisconsin [https://www.mhawisconsin.org/] * Tshaka Barrows - Haywood Burns Institute [https://burnsinstitute.org/] * Tarik Moody - Radio Milwaukee [http://radiomilwaukee.org/] & HYFIN [https://hyfin.org/] * Jared Robinson - RALLY [https://wearerally.com/] * Kim Dvorchak – National Association of Counsel for Children [https://www.naccchildlaw.org/] 00:07–03:15 – Luke Waldo – Setting the Stage: From Harmful Narratives to Action Luke reflects on the season’s central question: "What stories shape how we see the world, and how can we tell them differently?". He recaps the season's exploration of "monster frames," the "surveillance vs. support" dichotomy, and the "invisible architecture" of narratives that shape systems. He introduces the shift for this finale: moving from diagnosis to action and chart a path forward for narrative change .  03:15–05:27 – Jessica Moyer – Framing as an Ambitious Endeavor Jessica Moyer returns to serve as "co-pilot," framing narrative change as a decade-long strategy rather than a quick fix. She emphasizes that the goal is moving toward a space of hope and innovation, even amidst deep social polarization and mistrust of institutions.  05:27–12:04 – Jessica Moyer – “Humans Winning”: Countering Fatalism through Reframing Jess explains why stories about "humans winning" are essential. * Combating Stereotypes: "If we're talking about humans winning from the get-go, we're seeing people as the agents for positive change, and that counters fatalistic thinking". * The Poverty vs. Revitalization Shift: Jess shares a Frameworks example where focusing on "poverty" triggered toxic racialized mindsets. By shifting the focus to "neighborhood revitalization," they were able to talk about the same challenges while building public will for solutions like investment in third spaces and communal safety. 13:42–18:16 – Jessica Moyer – Framing as Art and Science Luke asks how storytelling ensures that data isn't lost but delivered effectively.  * The Interpretation Risk: Jess notes that "evidence always requires interpretation" and "never speaks for itself”. * Story as North Star: She argues that "as humans, we think in story," and the greatest risk isn't that a story distracts from data, but that "data distracts us from the story". 19:13–21:35 – Jessica Moyer – The Missing Story of Healthy Development Jess identifies a key dominant mindset: that healthy development is the "natural norm".  * The Problem: Because it’s seen as automatic, when things go wrong, we look for individuals to blame. * The Solution: The "missing story" is the immense work, resources, and policy support required to sustain that healthy development, which often remains invisible to the public . 22:17–25:22 – Jessica Moyer – Lessons from Tobacco: From Vice to Defective Product Jess provides a classic example of successful narrative shift: tobacco. * By reframing tobacco use from an individual "vice" to the industry selling a "defective product," advocates were able to shift the focus toward policy changes (like smoke-free public spaces) rather than individual stigma. 25:22–31:13 – The Evolution of Worthiness: From Support to Surveillance Luke and Jess examine how the framing of public assistance has shifted over time, using an example from Prudence Beidler Carr of the ABA Center on Children and the Law [https://www.google.com/search?q=https://www.americanbar.org/groups/child_law/]. * The "Badge of Honor": In the early 20th century, receiving public assistance was often framed as a "badge of honor", proof that a parent was "worthy" of community support . * The Racialized Shift: This narrative later shifted to focus on "unfitness," particularly as schools integrated. Financial struggle was increasingly conflated with parental neglect, moving the system from support toward surveillance. * Strategic Order and Emphasis: Jess suggests that effective advocacy requires starting with a vision (what we want) rather than the problem (what we want to defeat). She emphasizes providing the same level of visceral specificity for solutions that we typically provide for systemic harms. 31:13–43:20 – Filling the Blanks: Navigating the “System is Rigged” Narrative Luke explores the "system is rigged" mindset, which FrameWorks Institute [https://www.frameworksinstitute.org/resources/filling-in-the-blanks-contesting-what-the-system-is-rigged-means/] research shows is widely held across the political spectrum .  * The Risk of Misinterpretation: Jess warns that leaving the "rigged" narrative open-ended allows for toxic interpretations. Communicators must be explicit about how the system is rigged (e.g., policies that privilege white, single-family home structures) to ensure the solution targets the root cause. * Polarization vs. Complexity: Luke addresses the dilemma of the "attention-based economy," where slogans like "defund child welfare" can overshadow the complex reality that while some children require CPS intervention, many families are simply suffering from the "fault" of living in poverty. 45:44–49:12 – Collective Efficacy: Proving That Change is Possible Jess highlights the importance of "Collective Efficacy", the belief that the public can actually change systems.  * The Sugar Tax Success: She shares an example of a community where members organized to ensure sugar tax revenues were redirected toward making healthy food more affordable . * The Eviction "Pray-In": Jess describes a community "pray-in" that successfully stopped an eviction by a wealthy developer. The action didn't just save one family's home; it sparked a wider conversation about tenants' rights and systemic exploitation. 51:38–1:05:29 – Productive vs. Toxic Mindsets Jess and Luke discuss how to diagnose the cultural "mindsets" at play. * Tapping Into Fear: Jess contrasts positive social change with narratives that tap into fear (e.g., pandemic-era stories of "invisible" child abuse). She notes that fear-based narratives often lead to increased surveillance rather than the long-term engagement needed for system transformation. * Tilling for New Growth: Luke references the Casey Family Programs [https://www.casey.org/] network and the collaborative work of communications professionals like Jared Robinson from Rally [https://wearerally.com/] to push back against harmful stereotypes and "fill in the blanks" with stories of human resilience . 1:05:29 – Luke Waldo – Closing Thoughts: Tilling the Soil for Well-being Luke synthesizes the shift from a "protective, suspicion-based narrative" of child abuse to a "proactive, constructive narrative" of family well-being. He concludes the season with the metaphor of "tilling the soil", creating the conditions for new ways of thinking and collective action to grow .  Closing Credits Join the conversation and connect with us! * Visit our podcast page [https://uwm.edu/icfw/podcast/] on our ICFW website to learn more about the experts you hear in this series. * Subscribe, rate our show and leave feedback in the comments section. * Sign up for our Strong Families, Thriving Children, Connected Communities initiative [https://uwm.edu/icfw/strong-families-thriving-children-connected-communities-initiative/#signup]. * Follow the Institute for Child and Family Well-being on Facebook [https://www.facebook.com/institutechildfamilywellbeing], Instagram [https://www.instagram.com/institutechildfamilywellbeing/] and LinkedIn [https://www.linkedin.com/company/institute-for-child-and-family-well-being/posts/?feedView=all&viewAsMember=true].

Seen, Felt, Heard: The Power of Representation, Empathy, and Truth

Today’s episode included the following speakers (in order of appearance): Host: Luke Waldo Guests: * Shary Tran - Co-founder of ElevAsian [https://www.elevasianwi.com/]and Vice President of Belonging and Workforce Development at Children's Wisconsin [https://childrenswi.org/] * Tori Brasher-Weathers - Lead for Mission in Common [https://instituteforfamily.org/mission-incommon/] at the Institute for Family [https://instituteforfamily.org/] * Valerie Frost [https://valeriefrost.com/] – National Lived Expert and Systems Change Leader 00:14–04:28 – Luke Waldo: The Pathways to Transformation  Luke reflects on the lessons from previous episodes regarding authentic relationships and disrupting "monster narratives”. He introduces a three-pronged framework for system transformation: Seeing (making the invisible visible), Feeling (building empathy), and Speaking Truth (transforming discomfort into change). He frames the episode’s focus on three voices - Shary Tran, Tori Brasher Weathers, and Valerie Frost - who illuminate these pathways through their unique lived and professional experiences.  04:28–11:37 – Shary Tran: Representation and the Feeling of Belonging  Shary Tran describes the origins of ElevAsian, born from the isolation of being one of only a few Asian Americans in community decision-making spaces. She discusses the "skills" of navigation and adaptation that many people of color develop to fit into spaces not designed for them.  * Persistent Tropes: Shary identifies three narratives that "other" the Asian American community: the Model Minority Myth, the "Yellow Peril" threat, and the Perpetual Foreigner trope.  * Strategy: ElevAsian uses education and mental health awareness to destigmatize asking for help and to challenge damaging characterizations.  * Concept to Apply: Shary distinguishes between inclusion and belonging: "Inclusion is the physical act of inviting somebody, but belonging is the feeling you get when you're there that matters and that you truly feel welcome".  11:37–19:34 – Tori Brasher Weathers: The Formula for Empathy Tori discusses Mission in Common, an initiative grounded in the belief that "connection leads to empathy, empathy leads to alignment, and alignment leads to lasting change”. She explains how to bridge the gap between decision-makers and families through the power of story.  * Storytelling as Neuroscience: Referencing StoryCorps [https://storycorps.org/] and a clip from episode 7 with Dr. Uri Hasson on neural coupling [https://overloaded-understanding-neglect.simplecast.com/episodes/do-stories-really-work], Tori highlights that while statistics inform, stories transform because our brains are wired for narrative rather than spreadsheets.  * Listening to Understand: Tori emphasizes approaching others with curiosity rather than judgment, resisting the urge to center one's own story when listening to another's.  * Principle: "Listen to understand, not listen to respond". Empathy requires leaning into discomfort and being present with someone else's truth.  19:34–32:01 – Valerie Frost: Truth Telling as Legitimate Authority Luke bridges Valerie’s work to the lessons of Pardeep Singh Kaleka from Episode 12 [https://overloaded-understanding-neglect.simplecast.com/episodes/walking-each-other-home-narrative-disruption-through-authentic-relationships-with-pardeep-singh-kaleka], noting that transformation requires the courage to "lovingly make people uncomfortable". Valerie describes her role as a "truth teller," using her story as an immutable tool for change. * Internal System Dissent: Valerie shares that "system people" often message her privately, confessing they feel stuck or "frozen" by the very structures they work within. Her truth-telling gives these professionals the "permission" to question the status quo from the inside. * The Biological Resistance of Systems: Luke introduces a clip from episode 3 with Dr. Bruce Perry [https://overloaded-understanding-neglect.simplecast.com/episodes/the-stories-we-tell-ourselves], who explains that social systems are programmed for self-preservation. This explains why systems often prioritize stability over the radical changes needed to better serve families. * The Railroad Tracks Analogy: Tshaka Barrows of the W. Haywood Burns Institute [https://burnsinstitute.org/] appears to explain institutional momentum. He notes that systems are like railroad tracks built on a history of specific intentions. Simply changing the "conductors" (the people) doesn't change the destination; transformation requires building entirely new tracks. * Synthesis of the Three Paths: Luke connects the episode’s three core voices: Shary Tran provides the "Visibility" (Seeing), Tori Brasher Weathers provides the "Empathy" (Feeling), and Valerie Frost provides the "Truth" (Hearing). Together, these form a single system of transformation. 32:01–36:46 – Luke Waldo: Synthesis and Practical Wisdom Luke synthesizes the practical advice from his guests: Shary’s call for cultural humility, Tori’s commitment to "leaving people with a feeling," and Valerie’s reminder that permission to speak truth comes from within. * Recapping the Season: Luke references the "Changing the Narrative" network, acknowledging partners like Kim Dvorchak of the National Association of Counsel for Children (NACC) [https://naccchildlaw.org/], Jared Robinson from the communications agency Rally [https://wearerally.com/], Tarik Moody of Radio Milwaukee and HYFIN [https://hyfin.org/], Prudence Beidler Carr of the ABA Center on Children and the Law [https://www.americanbar.org/groups/public_interest/child_law/], and investigative journalist Claudia Rowe [https://www.claudiarowejournalist.com/]. * Looking Ahead: Episode 14 will feature Jess Moyer from the FrameWorks Institute [https://www.frameworksinstitute.org/] to synthesize the season's patterns of narrative change. Closing Credits Join the conversation and connect with us! * Visit our podcast page [https://uwm.edu/icfw/podcast/] on our ICFW website to learn more about the experts you hear in this series. * Subscribe, rate our show and leave feedback in the comments section. * Sign up for our Strong Families, Thriving Children, Connected Communities initiative [https://uwm.edu/icfw/strong-families-thriving-children-connected-communities-initiative/#signup]. * Follow the Institute for Child and Family Well-being on Facebook [https://www.facebook.com/institutechildfamilywellbeing], Instagram [https://www.instagram.com/institutechildfamilywellbeing/] and LinkedIn [https://www.linkedin.com/company/institute-for-child-and-family-well-being/posts/?feedView=all&viewAsMember=true].

Walking Each Other Home: Narrative Disruption Through Authentic Relationships with Pardeep Singh Kaleka

Today's episode included the following speakers (in the order they appear): Host: Luke Waldo Guest: Pardeep Singh Kaleka, clinical director at Mental Health America of Wisconsin [https://www.mhawisconsin.org/], senior anti-hate advocate, and co-author of The Gift of Our Wounds [https://www.amazon.com/Gift-Our-Wounds-Supremacist-Forgiveness/dp/1250107547]. On August 5, 2012, a white supremacist murdered seven people at the Sikh Temple of Wisconsin [http://sikhtempleofwisconsin.com/] in Oak Creek, including Pardeep's father. Pardeep's TEDx talk, "Monster" [https://www.ted.com/talks/pardeep_singh_kaleka_monster], delivered at UW-Milwaukee in 2015, challenged the narrative of the isolated, evil perpetrator. He later co-authored his book with Arno Michaelis, a former white supremacist, whose friendship became a living example of narrative disruption. 00:14–04:07 – Luke Waldo Luke opens from where Episode 11 ended: the responsibility of media to report with context rather than crisis. He sharpens the question for this episode: what happens when you are living inside the story, when the headlines are about your father's murder, your community's trauma, your faith being erased? He introduces Pardeep Singh Kaleka and frames the episode's central themes: how to challenge narratives that erase communities, how to refuse the monster frame without excusing harm, and how to create genuine human contact across difference in an algorithmically siloed world. 04:07–09:43 – Pardeep Singh Kaleka: August 5, 2012, and the Dominant Narrative That Followed Pardeep describes the shooting: a white supremacist affiliated with the Hammerskins gang entered the Sikh Temple of Wisconsin on a Sunday morning in August 2012 and murdered seven people, including his father, the temple president. It was the deadliest hate crime in a house of worship in nearly 50 years. The dominant narrative that emerged was immediate and, he argues, dangerous: an isolated act committed by an evil man. Pardeep names two harms in that framing. First, it gave society an excuse by treating the violence as random, requiring no systemic explanation. Second, it placed his community in the backdrop of its own tragedy. The perpetrator became the main character; the Sikh community, the victims of the deadliest act of white supremacist terror in generations, became a secondary narrative presence. People got to know the community as victims, not as people who had been there all along. * Trauma research connection: Pardeep notes that how harm is framed matters to survivors. When harm is framed as random or individual, survivors lose the ability to make meaning from it, which worsens long-term PTSD and moral injury. 13:53–20:10 – Pardeep Singh Kaleka: The "Monster" TEDx Talk Three years after the shooting, Pardeep delivered his TEDx talk titled "Monster" at UW-Milwaukee. He describes the core challenge he was sitting with: if he accepted that the shooter was simply a monster, violence had no roots, and therefore healing had no path. Calling someone a monster does two things simultaneously: it dehumanizes them (which may feel deserved), and it gives society permission to stop asking how he was created. The narrative of the monster says: we can lock him away, reject him, throw him out. It does not ask: how did a child become this? What systems, conditions, and ideologies were present? Is there a Wade Page in every community? Pardeep describes the audience's response as deliberate discomfort. He wanted people to feel unsettled by the narrative they had accepted, not because discomfort is the goal, but because lovingly making people uncomfortable is how narrative reality changes. And he wanted people to stop asking "Why are there bad people?" and start asking "How do we prevent people from becoming like this?" He describes seeing that shift in people around him over time as evidence of growth. * Watch: Pardeep's TEDx talk "Monster" (2015) at ted.com [https://www.ted.com/talks/pardeep_singh_kaleka_monster]. Also recommended: the 36-minute PBS documentary Waking in Oak Creek [https://www.pbs.org/video/waking-in-oak-creek-full-film/], which Pardeep uses for community dialogue. 30:40–39:48 – Pardeep Singh Kaleka: The Gift of Our Wounds and Intergroup Contact Three months after the shooting, Pardeep reached out to Arno Michaelis, a founding member of the Hammerskins, the same gang to which the Oak Creek shooter was affiliated. He had questions the shooter could no longer answer, and he believed Arno could help him understand the ideology and the path that led there. Their friendship grew over years into a genuine relationship: Arno is known as "Uncle Arno" to Pardeep's children; Pardeep knows Arno's parents and brother. They co-authored The Gift of Our Wounds in 2018. Their partnership was, Pardeep notes, never frictionless. They are both strong-willed, they disagree, and they came from entirely different lives. What made it powerful was precisely that: they were real, unscripted, and speaking from the heart. "When hearts speak, hearts listen." Research on intergroup contact, showing that meaningful relationships across difference are among the strongest evidence-based methods for reducing prejudice, validates what Pardeep and Arno were living. Their most effective strategy was not arguing about who was right, but choosing to be present and to try to understand where the other person was coming from. * Concept to explore: Intergroup contact theory, which holds that direct, meaningful contact between members of different groups, under certain conditions, is one of the most effective evidence-based approaches for reducing prejudice and shifting mental models. 41:18–49:53 – Pardeep Singh Kaleka: Narrative Disruption in Practice Pardeep shares a concrete example from a small Massachusetts town navigating demographic change and community conflict between "growth" and "preservation" factions. Two Hindu temples had recently been established; yard signs and public symbols were flashpoints. His intervention was practical and disarming: he suggested the town hold its next local election at one of the new Hindu temples. The act of using the temple as a civic venue would require community members to physically enter the space and encounter their neighbors as participants in the same democratic process, not as foreign arrivals. He names the broader pattern: demographic anxiety and demographic shift anxiety are not unique to one place. They recur across communities, and they can either be weaponized to split people apart or galvanized to build connection. His principle, drawn from Sikhism, is that two things can be true and valued at the same time: welcome and preservation are not a zero-sum choice. 49:53–1:03:34 – Pardeep Singh Kaleka: Narratively Trapped and the Path Forward Pardeep offers a diagnosis of the current moment: we are not just divided, we are narratively trapped. Algorithm-driven outrage feeds us constant confirmation of our existing beliefs. Liberals see feeds of conservatives doing alarming things; conservatives see the same in reverse. The result is a kind of self-righteous certainty that forecloses curiosity. He draws on his clinical work: certainty can itself be a kind of cognitive illness, a rigidity that was once a trauma survival mechanism but now stands in the way of actual healing. His antidote is not a program or a campaign. It is curiosity, practiced personally and professionally. He stays willing to ask: Why does this narrative land the way it does for me? Why do I feel what I feel toward this person or group? He reframes imposter syndrome as a form of healthy humility, a signal that you are still questioning your own certainty rather than cementing it. He closes with the frame that gives the episode its title: "We're all just walking each other home anyway, and we're doing the best we can. Give each other grace and compassion. Give yourself some grace." Luke previews Episode 13 with Valerie Frost, Shary Tran, and Tori Brasher Weathers, exploring how belonging is built through lived experience and cultural expression. * Principle from Sikhism: "I am not good and you are not bad" (and its inverse: "I am not bad and you are not good") as a practice that resists both self-righteousness and self-condemnation, and creates the conditions for genuine understanding. Closing Credits Join the conversation and connect with us! * Visit our podcast page [https://uwm.edu/icfw/podcast/] on our ICFW website to learn more about the experts you hear in this series. * Subscribe, rate our show and leave feedback in the comments section. * Sign up for our Strong Families, Thriving Children, Connected Communities initiative [https://uwm.edu/icfw/strong-families-thriving-children-connected-communities-initiative/#signup]. * Follow the Institute for Child and Family Well-being on Facebook [https://www.facebook.com/institutechildfamilywellbeing], Instagram [https://www.instagram.com/institutechildfamilywellbeing/] and LinkedIn [https://www.linkedin.com/company/institute-for-child-and-family-well-being/posts/?feedView=all&viewAsMember=true].

Changing the Story

Today's episode included the following speakers (in the order they appear): Host: Luke Waldo Guests: * Kim Dvorchak, CEO of the National Association of Counsel for Children [https://www.naccchildlaw.org/] * Jared Robinson, Senior Account Executive at Rally [https://wearerally.com/], the communications firm partnering with the Casey Family Programs national network * Tarik Moody, Director of Innovation and Strategy at Radio Milwaukee [http://radiomilwaukee.org], HYFIN [https://hyfin.org/] and co-host of the podcast By Every Measure [https://radiomilwaukee.org/podcast/by-every-measure] * Claudia Rowe, investigative journalist, member of the Seattle Times editorial board [https://www.seattletimes.com/author/seattle-times-editorial-board/], and National Book Awards finalist [https://www.nationalbook.org/awards-prizes/national-book-awards-2025/?cat=nonfiction] for Wards of the State: The Long Shadow of American Foster Care [https://www.claudiarowe.com/wards-of-the-state] 00:14–02:52 – Luke Waldo Luke opens in spring 2020: as the pandemic shut down schools and workplaces, a narrative spread through newsrooms that children were unsafe at home, invisible to the mandated reporters who normally would catch signs of abuse. The concern was genuine, but the message it sent was damaging: parents are threats, homes are dangerous, and professional surveillance is the only thing keeping children safe. Luke frames the episode's central question: what happens when child welfare experts, advocates, and people with lived experience decide not to let that narrative stand, and build something new in its place? 02:52–07:39 – Kim Dvorchak and Jared Robinson: The Origins of the Changing the Narrative Network Kim Dvorchak describes how the network was born: during a Casey Family Programs [https://www.casey.org/] national partners meeting on Zoom in spring 2020, she typed into the chat offering to co-write an op-ed pushing back on the alarmist pandemic narrative. That single offer sparked an offline conversation that grew into the Changing the Narrative working group, which has been meeting for five years since. Jared Robinson describes the working group's purpose: not another policy update meeting, but a dedicated space for communications-minded people who understood that changing a narrative requires different skills than writing policy. It requires knowing how stories work, what frames resonate, and which ones backfire. The spirit from the start was collaborative and entrepreneurial: "feeling our way forward" rather than following a prescribed formula. Casey Family Programs brought in Rally to provide communications expertise alongside the partners' subject matter knowledge. 10:11–14:12 – Kim Dvorchak and Jared Robinson: Strategy and Measurable Results The group made a crucial early decision: don't just have experts and lawyers explain why the dominant narrative is wrong. Bring in lived experience: young people with foster care backgrounds, parents who had navigated the system, pediatricians and other frontline voices. The op-ed and letters-to-the-editor campaign became the primary vehicle, placing counter-narrative content in local, state, and national outlets where the harmful narrative had originally circulated, then amplifying it through partner newsletters and social media. The results are documented. The network has tracked child welfare media coverage for five years. In 2020, mentions of prevention in child welfare coverage were essentially negligible. By the end of 2024, prevention appeared in approximately 20% of the stories analyzed, a significant shift that is continuing to grow. Coverage increasingly features the lived experience of families rather than just policymakers and agency leaders. * Data point: Prevention mentions in child welfare media coverage grew from near zero in 2020 to approximately 20% of analyzed stories by end of 2024, a measurable indicator of narrative shift at the media level. 16:42–22:38 – Luke Waldo and Tarik Moody: Solutions Journalism and the Doomed Feeling Luke shifts from the network's media strategy to the storytellers themselves. Tarik Moody describes Radio Milwaukee's editorial commitment: whenever a story covers something harmful or systemic, always follow it with how that harm is being addressed. Not sometimes; always. His goal with By Every Measure, a podcast on systemic racism in Milwaukee, was to educate without inducing guilt, making a deliberate distinction between systemic cause and individual blame, and structuring each episode so listeners left feeling agency rather than despair. Luke identifies the psychological mechanism: when people are shown a massive systemic problem with no pathway to address it, they develop learned helplessness. Tarik's formula counters this: show the problem, show people doing something about it, and leave the listener asking "What can I do?" rather than "Are we doomed?" The response to By Every Measure confirmed the approach: listener gratitude, sustained engagement years after release, and requests for another season. * Concept to apply: Tarik's design goal, that listeners leave feeling "educational, informative, engaging, and hopeful," is a practical framework for any communicator tackling systemic issues: not guilt, not despair, but agency. 22:38–31:02 – Luke Waldo and Claudia Rowe: Why "Why?" Changes Everything Claudia Rowe represents a different but complementary approach: years-long, deeply reported journalism that refuses simple answers. Luke draws a distinction between two questions journalists can ask. "What happened?" leads to blame: this kid was damaged, this family failed, this system is broken. "Why did this happen?" leads to understanding: what does severing parental bonds do neurologically? What does repeated placement with strangers do to attachment? What does poverty plus trauma plus system intervention create together? Claudia's work on Wards of the State exemplifies this: she does not deny that foster care causes harm, but she traces the mechanisms of that harm and asks what it would take to do better. She also names the professional challenge directly: simple, sensational stories confirm biases and get clicks. Monster narratives don't require systemic thinking. Looking closer does, and it takes time, trust, and willingness to engage with complexity that frightens or confuses. * Principle: "Look closer. Especially at the things that frighten or confuse you. You will be less afraid if you understand better." Claudia Rowe's guiding principle for journalism and, by extension, for anyone trying to build understanding across difference. 31:02–38:04 – Luke Waldo Luke synthesizes the episode as a single system with multiple entry points. Kim and Jared's network changes how journalists tell stories about families by providing messaging support, expert voices, and lived experience to counter harmful narratives as they emerge. Tarik and Claudia are the storytellers doing the work differently, structuring coverage to create agency rather than paralysis, asking "why" rather than just "what", and holding complexity rather than collapsing into simple labels. He leaves listeners with four questions: How might we resist sensational headlines and seek out complexity? How might we support journalism that takes years to understand an issue deeply? How might we share stories that create agency instead of despair? And when telling our own stories, how might we follow Tarik's formula: show the problem, show the solutions, leave people asking "What can I do?" rather than "Are we doomed?" He previews Episode 12: Pardeep Singh Kaleka on how he transformed a devastating act of violence against his family and community into a story of compassion and friendship. Closing Credits Join the conversation and connect with us! * Visit our podcast page [https://uwm.edu/icfw/podcast/] on our ICFW website to learn more about the experts you hear in this series. * Subscribe, rate our show and leave feedback in the comments section. * Sign up for our Strong Families, Thriving Children, Connected Communities initiative [https://uwm.edu/icfw/strong-families-thriving-children-connected-communities-initiative/#signup]. * Follow the Institute for Child and Family Well-being on Facebook [https://www.facebook.com/institutechildfamilywellbeing], Instagram [https://www.instagram.com/institutechildfamilywellbeing/] and LinkedIn [https://www.linkedin.com/company/institute-for-child-and-family-well-being/posts/?feedView=all&viewAsMember=true].