Lytt til Podcast - SURF MASTERY

[https://images.squarespace-cdn.com/content/v1/6620239f21f2fa5a7b4e4234/7c3faf58-c4c7-45c1-bd45-9731f088f4c6/Joel+Timmons?format=1000w]   Joel Timmons on Surfing, Songwriting, and Soulful Journeys If you’ve ever found yourself seeking balance between creativity and passion, or wondering how to turn life's challenges into powerful art, this episode is your invitation to explore that path. Joel Timmons, musician and lifelong surfer, shares how his emotional songwriting and connection to the ocean fuel each other—and how vulnerability, self-work, and rhythm tie it all together. * Discover the deeply personal story behind Joel’s standout track “Say It To My Face” and the emotional reconciliation that followed. * Learn how Joel’s journey from coastal South Carolina to Nashville—and back again—influenced the sound and soul of his new album. * Find out why both music and surfing are lifelong pursuits of flow, mastery, and humble progression—whether you're in the studio or in the lineup. Tap play now to hear Joel’s heartfelt journey through music, surf, recovery, and rediscovery—and why he’d pick a surfboard over a guitar if he had to choose. https://open.spotify.com/artist/40Gd49hHE75WtRiqYGGhGj?si=_WNyIrmQQLG7n77zxft70A [https://open.spotify.com/artist/40Gd49hHE75WtRiqYGGhGj?si=_WNyIrmQQLG7n77zxft70A] https://www.joeltimmons.com [https://www.joeltimmons.com] https://www.instagram.com/joeltimmonsmusic/ [https://www.instagram.com/joeltimmonsmusic/] Episode music: “Say it to my face” - Joel Timmons Transcript: Thanks for joining. Thank you. I've been listening , to the new album. Sweet man. Yeah, I'm enjoying it. How's it translate down under Pretty good, man. You're in New Zealand, huh? Yes, I am. Cool. Yep. very popular here. But I did spend some time in the States, , so it was introduced to it over there and cool. I'll just say my favorite song on that album is say It To My Face. Oh, cool man. Yeah. Yeah. I think that's, for me at least, it's the most lyrically it's the most relatable song. Cool. Yeah. Very good. It's pretty, pretty direct, yeah, no, I like that. yeah, this sounds like there's a lot of I self work thing going on as well. I guess so. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I think songwriting is like a big tool for me with that, , almost like journaling can be, , and then sometimes , those journals end up out in the world and that is , quite therapeutic. Yeah. To have some secret little kernel of pain or question and then articulate it to yourself and make it feel nice to yourself and then get to share it with an audiences. Definitely transformative. I guess songwriting is very cathartic in that way. Yeah. The good ones are, , that particular song, I was just at home, just like crying my eyes out. The words were just pouring outta me, like the tears, and since that moment, , I had had. The opportunity to get back together with that friend and have the conversation that we needed to have, and bef even before I went into the studio to record it, , so then being in the studio, it was really magical to be able to access the pain. Of when we were at odds, but then also with the knowledge of , okay, we, we did it. And that kind of jam out at the end of the song, that sort of resolves to a major key. . And that musically was that reconciliation. . So it was, yeah, it was really a beautiful, , journey, yeah. It's a beautiful song. Sophie sent me an earlier version of it before it was released, and then. Oh, cool. Once it was released, I went on to, the album was released. I went on to Spotify, and I assumed that would be the most popular song. I was quite surprised to see that it wasn't interesting. Yeah. Yeah. Uhhuh. Yeah. And it I didn't release that one as a single. So some of those songs that have singles were released to singles, have had a little more time out there. We, I don't, I just know like of the few people that I've talked to into the Empire, people like that song, which I didn't. I lo I love that song, but I didn't kn know that it was like gonna be re special for some people, I'm glad to hear you say you like, say it to my Face. We played that one Friday. I hit a release show here in Oh yeah. In Town. And we played, we played the whole album Top to Bottom Live, and that one, oh, red, that one felt really potent. I'm really enjoying the trying song as well. It's it's really cool. Yeah, that's, that one was also very fun. Live. That was like the last, we were at the finish line on the record and you could really cut loose. People were dancing and everything, so it was a good time. Yeah. So , let's keep it surfing a little bit. When did you start surfing? Yeah. So I grew up, , on a barrier island in South Carolina, Sullivan's Island. So we, we were like riding boogie boards and little styrofoam surfboards when I was, a toddler, four or five years old. , and my family when we moved to Louisiana for three years, when I was . Entering fourth grade, fourth, fifth, and sixth grade. We were in Baton Rouge, Louisiana. So there was no ocean there. My mom was a winds surfer, so we did a little windsurfing in Louisiana, , brought that from South Carolina. And then when I moved back, like all my little buddies that I grew up with were all surfing at that, at, , I guess that was in seventh grade when I was like 13. So I started, yeah, I started surfing, and study and like reading the magazines and watching, endless summer and that kind of thing. , and then I guess like it's the surf season here is we get, hurricane swells in like the late summer and early fall, and then really most of the waves come in the winter. , but I wasn't, when I first started, I wasn't surfing in the winter time. It was probably high school before I got a wetsuit and started surfing year round. . And the year I grad, when I graduated high school, a couple of us took a surf trip to Costa Rica, which is a rite of passage for an east coast surfer. Yeah. , outer ba, outer banks in North Carolina, Florida, , and then like the Caribbean or Central America. Yeah. Puerto Rico as well. I've been to Puerto Rico a couple times. Not, I didn't go, I went there in college for the first time, so a couple years later. , yeah, that's a really close flight and man, an awesome surf destination. , yeah, I went, I guess I've been there maybe four or five times now. Yeah. To Puerto Rico. Yeah. Yeah. I've been there once and it was, the waves were huge. I was so surprised how much swell they get there. Yeah, I just got back from the Virgin Islands, , which are just like, , the US Virgin Islands, like the next islands over from Puerto Rico. Yeah. , and , I've been going down there every winter for about 15 years and have scored some great swells down there. This year was like, I. A bit off. , when I showed up, everybody was like, it's the best season we've ever seen. Like these, the old guys were like, it, the waves haven't stopped since September. And then there was one more swell when I got there and then it stopped and it's gone quiet, but I did get to say catch one Good swell. Yeah. Down there this year. , are you a surfer who plays music or a musician who surfs? I'm a musician who surfs. Yeah. Yeah, for sure. Definitely. Nobody's paying me to show up and surf, yeah. And I do get gigs. , I don't know which one I would choose. If I had to choose one of the other, both of really. It guided me and helped me at different times, yeah. If you were stuck on a desert island, would you choose a surfboard or a guitar? Surfboard. Or a guitar? Golly, if there was waves, I'd probably have to choose a surfboard or I'm trying to think of some loophole, where I can like get a guitar that's shaped like a hand plane or something, , what's harder surfing or music for you personally? I think surfing's harder. , I don't know. I don't know. I I the Surf Mastery title of the podcast is scary for me 'cause I definitely don't feel like I've a master of it and I don't feel like I'm a master of music either, that's what the concept of mastery means. It's not that you've mastered something. It's that you have a drive to get better no matter what level you are. Yeah. Just, yeah. Yeah. You want to improve. Yep. And I do think that's something para there's a parallel there in music for sure. As with surfing, like I, I definitely, it's something, I'm 45 years old now and I wanna be. I'm remember, I'm like realizing now oh gosh, I am one of those old guys now at this point. But there's a generation or two ahead of me that I look up to and wanna still be doing this in 20 or 30 years, both music and surfing, yeah. And it's like learning, and like I, and improving, even though even if my body presents limitations to me, , it, it's along some point, if my fingers aren't as fast or my pop ups not as fast, to like still be. On a journey with it. Definitely. Oh, for sure. And I see a lot of, synergy with music and surfing. I think surfing is far more an art form than it is a sport. And, you can pick your own journey, you could spend your entire lifetime. Only playing country music and never master it and then decide to go into another genre and be all like a beginner again. And the same with surfing. Yeah. You change it. Different type of board or a different type of wave that you wanna surf and begin your journey all over again. And yeah. Music's interesting too, because there's probably. Th There's probably amazing classically trained jazz music musicians living in New York, who barely earn any money. And then you've got people like, yep, you've heard of the chats. You heard of them in Australia, the chats, no Uhuh, no, they're an Australian band. Just grunge, punk rock, basic music. But their lyrics speak to the entire culture of Australia. So they're cool. Sold out shows. Yeah. And there's certainly by no means talented musicians, they're not terrible, but so music's cool like that, you don't have to be an exceptional, talented musician. You just have to, play and speak from the heart and and be good enough to perform, to to make it, yeah. It's, I, I. When Jack Johnson had his records that were really hitting, that was super inspiring for me, to be like this guy, okay, this guy, we know him from his surfing and his , writing in the surf world. , and his music is beautiful, but it's not fancy, it's very like direct and plain spoken. It's sounds like something you'd hear at a bonfire. And when that was like, wow, this can really resonate with so many people. That's amazing. Yeah. I found that encouraging as like a young songwriter, trying to find my sound and. My way, yeah. . On that note, what advice would you have for, let's say, someone who's starting to play guitar later in life? , do you ever look back and go, if I had to start all over again, I wouldn't do this and this, instead, I'd focus on that. That's interesting. Yeah. It's such a different environment now, like with. All the teaching tools on the internet, , I have a few, I have a few guitar students, , mostly like young kids, a couple that are like teens and then some , eight and 9-year-old little dudes that are just kinda like exploring to find out what they're into, , and it's easier for those kids, I think, than it is for an adult. , I was probably 12 or 13 when I started picking up the guitar. And I was just, for some reason at that point, so driven to do it and had free time to , dedicate hours at it, and today I don't know that I would have the focus or the time to devote to like a new thing that it took, that I had when I was that age. Not to discourage any adult learners, but just it's gonna, that it's like. It's difficult and it's, and there's like this, the painful part of like getting the mechanics of your hand to just hold the, press the strings down, that's like really defeating at first and it doesn't sound good, once you pre and when you press through that and it becomes fun and rewarding it, 'cause you're making pleasant sounds. Yeah. But it's, do you play any other, yeah, maybe just any other instruments. I'm a percussionist. I play yeah, ham, a lot of ham percussion, some drum set. My wife's a upright bass player, so I've gotten better at the bass. I'm not really like hireable yet. 'cause my physically can't do it for a whole, whole gig. It's 10 minutes and then my this finger starts getting a blister and this hand starts cramping up. , it's a physical instrument, but yeah, I'd say percussion, guitar vocals, my main expressions. Yeah. That's interesting because you, considering you. You have a background in percussion and a guitar one would assume bass would be quite net easy for you? Yeah, the bass guitar I can play and feel comfortable with that, but the upright bass is just like such a, oh yeah, there's no frets there. Strings are really big around and you like really? Have to one, have good technique and also just have a certain amount of strength and callous to like, make the instrument speak, yeah. And my wife plays bluegrass music, so it's just like boom on the bass, and like in the jam situation, I. You gotta just keep that going and it's gotta be even, and it's gotta be loud, , and she could do it all night, relaxed with good technique and beautiful tone. And I'm like, hit take the base. And I'm sweating and inefficient with my movements and it doesn't sound as good. It's not as in tune, and then I'm like, okay, I, sub please. So I just haven't devoted the hours and hours it takes to get, just get that basic good technique down, yeah. Yeah. With that instrument. But I'm. There's one right over there. I could work on it here after this. That's a, it's a, that's a rewarding, , instrument for me. Yeah. The fright bass, it feels really good to play it. When you play live with your band, do you have a do a double bass player? , at certain groups I do. The band that I played with this, on this album, Ethan Je, is the bass player, and he played both double bass on some tracks and then bass guitar and some five string bass guitar, some four string bass guitar. , we were, we recorded it. . This guy, Mike Elizondo ISS recording studio, and Mike's a brilliant bass player and producer, and Ethan was a kid in a candy store. , I'm gonna use a different one on every, every, with this particular nuance of this song requires like this particular electric bass from this era. And Mike had 'em, had all of 'em there, so cool. But yes, sometimes it's bass guitar, sometimes it's upright, sometimes it's both. Yep. How many guitars do you own? , 15. Upwards of 15 or 20 maybe. Oh yeah. How many surfboards? Half a dozen. Not too many. And if you had to choose one surfboard, which one would it be? I think I have a nine three Bing, like a single fan. Classic longboard. , I. I guess it would probably depend like where am I gonna be? But I guess if it's just the board firm, I can still go anywhere I want. , of the boards I have now, I'd probably stick with the nine three 'cause I get mo more days here on that board than anything, yeah. Though I'd get myself in trouble if I was in real heavy surf with that. Yeah. Break it in half and then I'd have two, two, short shorties. . Do you see many synergies between surfing and music? Yeah. Yeah. I mean with we were talking about just the the long arc of the journey of, of it's something I've been doing since I was a kid and I'm still really excited about it. , and still improving in some ways, and, , and that , the vast majority of people that do it. , don't ever make a dollar off it. , it's just something like innate in people and it's something joyful and a sense of expression. And then there's this like little industry that is, makes money on it, ? Some people are professionals at it, but that's just a small part of the experience of music or surfing. , and yeah, I'm lucky. I'm lucky to get to, to be. Making money, doing music and traveling. , but I think I would still be doing it whether or not it was my job, it would still be a part of me. . So you're doing it for the right reasons, let's say. And when you're performing from that place, , is that the performance in the song that, that tends to resonate most with the audience? I certainly, , I. When I go to a show, it's generally pretty obvious energetically. If the performer is like fully invested in the moment, or disappointed or thinking about whatever. It's like a really challenging life to be away from home and putting your best self out there every night, , usually I can find that joy and that and the excitement of the moment, . That, yeah that both, surfing and playing an instrument or singing a song challenges you to be in the moment and be focused on immediate surroundings and task at hand. Yeah. Do you ever find yourself struggling to get into that flow state as a performer? Yeah, sometimes. , if the audio is challenging, if I can't, if I can't hear the guitar or my voice in the way that, that I'm used to, or if, the instrument won't stay in tune, sometimes I'm like fighting the mechanics of it. Or if, I've had too many gigs and my voice is worn out, if I'm thinking about just the physicality of it, . That can be a challenge, but then, I don't know, sometimes you can press through and yeah, I it's not something that I'm like thinking about usually on stage, , but I think that's probably like a indication that some that I'm there, whether or not I'm like enjoying it. I'm just like really focused on and . Primed up into the end of the moment. Why are you able to, the same thing in surfing would be the next question. Yeah. Except when it's real crowded. Oh, yeah. Yeah. I have I really struggle with that. Yeah. To not have my mind like, just taken by the social or the dynamic when there's, when it's a lot of folks out there, yeah. Or get f get frustrated on the wave count or whatever. Yeah. It's a, it's where I live here, like my local is just a big sandbar, so you can spread out. There's certain days where it's crowded everywhere, but that's a, just a handful of days a year. So usually I can just spread out and then surf traveling. Sometimes it's not, it's not like that. Yeah, performing as a musician is unique like that, once you've got the stage, you've got the stage. It's true. Yeah. Or do you sometimes have exceptions to that? Yeah. What would be an exception? You have a sit-in musician who wants to steal the limelight or something. Yeah. The sit in the harmonica player, that would, that won't take a hint, yeah. We, when I was on this recent tour in the Virgin Islands, we actually had a really beautiful gig that sort of, it morphed into this kind of showcase of all these local musicians had shown up. And we'd been down there for a week and it was like our second to last show, and we had a steel drum player that came in for a while, , and a saxophone player, a harmonica player, all these guys, at the end of the show, we're like, wow, that could have just gone so sideways. And it was just wonderful. Everybody, read the room, played appropriately, didn't overstay their welcome, and it just flowed, but that, that, when sometimes when you're mixing too many ingredients in or just have , Audi, if we're playing bars where there's not really a stage, it's just a sand dance floor and a sand stage, and then you have. People that invite themselves on think they can play the tambourine, oh, yeah. It sounds like a crowded lineup. Yeah. Yeah. Totally. Yeah. And then when it's you and your buddies on stage, that's like surfing with you and your best mates. Yeah. Yeah. That's the best for sure. Yeah. And then of course you've got your solo sessions, which are extra special. What would the equivalent of the solo session is like, you're just in the bar, you and the bartender, you're like, man, this sounds so good right now. Yeah. Or just you within the, in the bedroom with an acoustic, yeah, no, that's true. That's true. That is that's where a lot of it starts. Yeah. How many hours a day, when you were first, , really inspired and coming up and learning, how many hours a day would you spend on the instrument? I would, I think I spent like upwards three or more hours a day when I was first really tackling it, and then maybe backed off that at some point. And then back to that point again at different periods, I'm actually, I'm signed up to go to a bluegrass guitar camp. This May it's like a, there's a big tradition of like fiddle, banjo, bluegrass camp camps, like in the Appalachians and out west, all over the us, and, . I'm like adjacent to that scene, I've grown up here bluegrass music, but not like playing it and going to those camps, whereas like my wife is just deeply bluegrass from the, from before she was born, and part of it's like wanting to be able to keep up with her and her friends, but also like I'm genuinely interested in getting better at this kind of music. It's gonna be fun to go and like sort, like what you're saying, to be a beginner again in this particular genre. I'm like, yeah, okay. I get played paid to play the guitar, but I. Not this type, yeah. You're going there as a student? As a student. As a student, yeah. Yeah. Oh, wow. Yeah, , I sent my application, my video in, and sent my money in. And yeah, it'll be three or four days. I'll have to leave from one of the days to go play a gig and then come back miss one of the days. But I'm excited about that. I haven't ever done like a, a surf camp or anything like that. , the first time I went to Costa Rica. I guess 'cause that was like a minor, we went to a camp that it took us around to the beach. So I guess I did do that when I was a kid. Yeah. No, those types of camps are becoming more and more popular in surfing, where you go on a surf trip for a week or so. And the objective is to actually learn and to get better at surfing and or learn a new style of surfing. Those are become, yeah, more and more popular. Yeah. Yep. Totally. Yeah, in music there's, there seems to be less arrogance around that, , even though you love to play and perform and write from the heart, you're still very aware of, Hey, you know what? I could, I, I could do with some theory and learning some different styles or whatever. And there's a humbleness within the music industry that hasn't really infiltrated surfing culture as much yet. Yeah, and I was just thinking it's there. Though there are like videos and stuff and people breaking down surf lessons it seems like a much more difficult thing. 'cause like we can, I can sit here with my guitar and stop the video, and play it in slow motion, and like really integrate a lot of stuff with a YouTube instructor. But I. Watching a video and then going out and paddling around and trying to integrate all that is like a much slower, more difficult loop, to get your reps in. Yeah. I guess surfing with that analogy, surfing would be more similar to singing, whereas when you are singing, you. And then you hear yourself back on a recording, you're like, oh, that's not how I thought it sounded. Yeah. Uhhuh for sure. Yeah. Because yeah, when you watch yourself back on footage of surfing, you're like, oh, but I think in the same way of singing like the more you record and listen to yourself singing, the closer those two things become, the way it sounds when you are singing. I think so. And the way the recording sounds become closer and closer with more experience, has that been your. I think so. Yeah. And maybe you just get more used to that sound of the amplified voice, and like it not coming through your head. . But I've gotten just more comfortable with that and more comfortable with knowing you have the stage monitors with your voice coming back and knowing how much of that I want. And if it's too muddy or too bright, how to get that to where it feels comfortable but doesn't be back, and I can sing quiet and hear myself, or I can sing loud and not blow my head off, I think that is, that has come with experience. Mic technique. Yeah. It's same with surfing. Like when you watch yourself on video, it's, and then go back and practice those two things become closer and closer the way surfing feels. Yeah. The way it looks. Starts to line. Yeah, totally. To line up. Yeah. Did you have lessons growing up, music lessons growing up? A little bit. It was more, a little bit more just like playing music with groups of people that were also, like there was other kids that were getting instruments at the same time. I was, and there was like this an art school. That one. One of the kids I grew up with, his mom started it when we were real, real little and it grew into a program. And there was an early American folk ensemble that this lady, Hazel Ketchum she taught it. We were like all probably in seventh, eighth, ninth grade and, like playing guitars. And she was teaching us everything from Grateful Dead songs to old English ballads. , and it's acoustic music teaching us how to be in an ensemble. , and it, but it was. More like we did read music a little bit, but it was a lot of learning by ear and harmony, singing by ear. , and then in school I was in the choir, in the band program, so getting a little bit more structured musical education there. And then , in our off afternoons, my friends and I were making up songs and like jamming in the garage on our electric guitars and drum sets and stuff, so I was getting it from all sides. Yeah. Not too many like private lessons, I don't think. A handful at the be very beginning. Yeah. On the guitar. Did your parents musical? Yeah, my mom, , she had a guitar at the house. She played guitar. , and like at church, we all would, sing in the choir at church. , she, she would, they would, before church, they would have a little, more. Informal kinda like song circle type thing, and that's like the first place I saw people playing the guitar and singing, and I was just amazed like how fast they could move from one chord to the next. Like just right in time with the song, not even break, 'cause I would place my fingers individually slowly stretching them to get that, and I remember being just amazed at people that could just fluidly move between 'em, yeah. . But not, they weren't so not professional, but in a, in a in irreverent way. For sure. Yeah. Who's your biggest influence musically? Some of those I. It'd be like, would tough, be tough to not say my parents, if I'm thinking about the earliest, those early musical memories, them taking me to see concerts, having the guitar at the house, encouraging me to be in the choir and stuff, also had a really great choir instructor in high school, Ms. Austin, who she also sponsored the guitar club at our high school, which was like, like the, boys with guitar toys jam space, during homeroom. So Ms. Austin helped me a lot. And and then Led Zeppelin is like still maybe my favorite band of all time. Like I was, they were long since passed when I discovered 'em through cassette tapes, but still, it's like about as vibrant as there ever has been. . You mentioned concerts. What was the first concert that made a big impression on you? I have a really, like early memory. , there's something in Charleston, South Carolina where I grew up called Spoleto Festival and it's like a real arts from around the world kind of thing. It's still going on. It's some of it's highbrow opera and chamber music. And then the city does its own sort of sister festival at the same time. And I remember seeing these guys playing. These Andy and Pan pipes, it was a whole ensemble of dudes, play like playing in concert together. And I just remember blowing, totally blowing my little mind. , and I have memories of the of choir at church and like the first like rock and roll concert I went to was in seventh grade. Aerosmith, a friend of ours. Yeah. One like the, the cool mom. Loaded us, a bunch of us in the car and drove us two hours up the road to Columbia, to the Coliseum. It's all Aerosmith. Wow. And yeah, that was awesome. Yeah. What year was that? I'm thinking that was like 92. Yep. How, wow. So they, they were already old rockers by then. That was , I don't know if that was like the what was the tour when they had all the cow graphics? It might've been that era. Yeah. Oh, cool. They still played like sweet emotion and stuff. . Yeah. That would've been amazing. Janie got a gun. Yeah. , what's the first song you wrote? At least the one you remember that comes to mind when I say that. Yeah. There there's I can't remember. There was two songs. This is like probably seventh grade or something. And there was one I wrote by myself that's, I can't really, it is super mellow, melodramatic. My life is full of misery. You love everybody, but you just can't stand me. Real sorry for myself. 12-year-old kind of, yeah. Emo, yeah. Smash smashing pumpkins, and then Yeah. Oh yeah. At that same time. For sure. Yeah. Those, those were blind melon, smashing pumpkins, Nirvana, and all that stuff on the radio. Yeah. And then me and my friend, Natonya co, co our co-write, we wrote a song about a stick. This is a story of a lonely stick. It was like the of an in story about an inanimate object buried at Tom Robbins, which I didn't really realize at the time. It is the whole life story of this stick. Neither one of those have ever gotten recorded. Ah, maybe they should be Dig back. Yeah. Why not? You never know. Yeah. And sometimes, I know sometimes, like the child, there's a lot of like wisdom in the child, childlike perspective. Yeah. Or even it makes me think of, for some reason, makes me think of Hazard by Richard Marks, and I think that was a, yeah. Cool. That was a, songwriting, , project given to him by a teacher. Cool. Okay. What He wrote it Cool. Yeah. He didn't necessarily write it for any reason apart from that, and it became one of his most famous songs. That's cool. Yeah. Yeah. And I definitely there was one song, I can't remember the title, but I heard a. A lot of John Prine influence in one of your songs. Cool. Yeah, he was a huge influence for me for sure. I do remember hearing John Prine for the first time, not live, but we, my friend Joey his dad lived up in the country in McClellanville, South Carolina, and we would go up there sometimes on the weekends, probably around, around that same. Seventh, eighth, ninth grade and stayed at his dad's dirty Dan's house and dirty Dan was like, you guys need to listen to this. And he played us, Sam Stone and Paradise and Angel for Montgomery. And yeah. And then, since then John has been like a total songwriting light for me, the way his plain spoken delivery. But then there's just layers and layers of empathy and humanity in there. And, . Got to see, I gotta see him live a couple times in Nashville. He lived in Nashville when I was living there. And one time we were, we went to Arnold's as like this meet and three restaurant. My mom was in town, my wife probably both my parents and my wife and I all went for lunch. And then here comes John. This is one of his regular spots, and he goes to the buffet and I'm kind my. And he walks past the table and she does, she can't keep it cool. She's I love you, John. We love you, John. Thank you. She was like, okay. Yeah. And I was so embarrassed at the time. And then, a few years later, COVID happened and he, we lost him in the early days of Covid. It's really grieving that a lot during a very crazy time, and I was so glad that my mom told him that she loved him when she had the chance, yeah. Like even it was like, a little bit inappropriate, but hey, that's your chance. She took it, and Oh yeah he, so he knew it, yeah. I'm sure he appreciated. Appreciated it on some level. Yeah, totally. It was, she didn't grab him or jump up and try to take a picture or anything, I was probably like going, like taking a picture over my shoulder at him. Yeah. Oh, funny. , I gotta see him. How long did you spend living in Nashville? I lived there for about five years. , and Pro was visiting Shelby, my wife there for about a year before I moved there. , so I think I moved there in 2015 and then 2020 we moved outta there. But, . Heading back there next week. I love it. Yeah. It's an awesome place. How No surfing though? No, it's a long way from the beach. Yeah. Yeah. How important was that Nashville time to your musical development? I think this new record is like, wouldn't, definitely wouldn't have happened without Nashville. It's de me trying to document and take a Polaroid of that time and the people that I met while I was there, . It's, there's lots of songs about South Carolina, the low country where I'm here and my youth on the coast, but all the sound, the sounds, the, the fiddle and the pedal steel, that was really fell in love with that in Nashville. , and just, I got more serious about songwriting and storytelling, Just man, just the musicians that I got to meet there. I just, you just get better just by getting to hear those people play regularly and watch their approach up close in, in person, . You're just surrounded by it. It's like going to the North Shore as a surfer. Totally. Yeah. Yeah, exactly. Yeah. You better learn to duck diver, go back to Alabama. Yeah, psychedelic surf country. What inspired that title? It was after we'd made the record. , and, it's oh God, here comes another one of these decisions. We'll have to figure out what to call it. And I was de, I was just describing the sound to somebody and I was like, I don't know, it's like psychedelic surf country. Huh. That kind of sounds cool, . So in the first play I was using it was describing it like as a genre or a amalgam of sounds, but then I also like thinking about it like it's a place. 'cause my friend the other night was like, oh, I thought it was like a, a place, where you're from, and I was like, oh yeah, sure, that too, but yeah, it just kind came outta my mouth and then I was like, oh, I think I like that. I think it sums it up. Yeah. Sums it up pretty good. I quick Google search. It wasn't like a already a band or anything, yeah. Lots of psychedelic surf rock, lots of surf, psychedelic like country even, but I didn't, couldn't find the three of 'em together. So I was like, I think that's, that'll work. Yeah. Does it describe your three favorite things? Yeah. Pretty well. Yeah. Three interests for sure. Yeah. Uhhuh. Oh, funny. Yeah. The, yeah, the psychedelia is when. The walls started getting fuzzy and the boundaries between things get blurry and you realize that there's a great unity behind everything, , and that's like music and genre list place, yeah. That gave me the image of, what's that? What's that cartoon? , with the black musician who has an outof body experience. Have you seen that? I don't know if I have, I don't know. I have to think of the title. Is it like one of the yeah. Was it one of the ones that's a documentary where they have the the cartoon? Like voiceovers or? No? Oh gosh. It's a really good movie. It's about a music. It's about a music, a black music teacher who gets offered, who finally gets offered a gig with a famous jazz musician. Oh, cool. Yeah, I haven't seen it. Yeah. But then he dies and has an outof body experience and come backs. Oh, I have to think of, I have to put the title of that movie in the show notes if I don't remember it before the end of this. A really cool movie though, all talking about, yeah. Cool. Yeah. The soul of music and Yeah. But he very much loses himself, in the music and has when he is jamming that psychedelic experience. Yep. I think I'm very much an amateur musician, I've certainly had jam sessions where you're just playing a song and you the song takes over and you're almost like witnessing yourself. Yeah. And I think those are the best surfing sessions as well. When you become one with the rhythm of the ocean and you're just you're not really thinking, it just moving in time and rhythm with the waves. Yeah. Yeah. That's a noble pursuit. Yeah, I think so. Yeah. And I think so for , for getting better at, . At surfing, I always say to people , if you wanna become a good musician and you're not, naturally gifted or you don't play by ear or anything, then you're just, you, there's no way of getting a, you have to spend some time, learning your chords and your scales. Yeah. And your mode and your modes. And then when you jam. If those modes and scales are just in, in your muscle memory, you don't have to think about them. That's when you can slot in and really have that creative expression. And I think surfing is the same thing, obviously. It's more athletic. You've gotta, it's full body movements. It's not just your fingers. But if people wanna become better at surfing, they really do have to practice those movements of surfing over and over again. And just install a slow motion pop up and a tube stance Yeah. Needs to be ingrained into your nervous system. Just like a music scale or a chord shape. Yeah. And do you have people doing those motions on land, like Yep. Yeah. Doing shore based Yeah. Fitness and, yeah. That's the, this, if you didn't grow up surfing as a kid for eight hours a day and you're, you come to surfing later in life or you get to a stage where you wanna really improve, there's no way of getting around it, yeah. Because even if you go surfing for three hours. Maybe if you're lucky, three minutes of that is actually spent with surfing. , the rest is just, yeah. So there's no getting around sort of those surfing exercises. , rest of it's paddling around circles. Trying not to drown is what I tell people basically. . So I always use the analogy of music and, musicians always humble themselves and they do the scales and they, yeah. Learn the chords, and they learn the theory and. And that's what gives way to jam sessions and music writing and that sort of thing yep. . Yeah, totally. , where in New Zealand are you? I'm in a place called Hawke's Bay, which is on the east coast of the North Island. Yeah, cool. Long way away. I got to visit New Zealand just once. Yeah. But it was 2003. And, I was like doing an around the world itinerary, put, had finished college, worked for a year, saved up some money, and we flew to Tonga. , and then crew, a crew, a sailboat from Tonga and then Oh wow. Came in the Bay Islands. I, bay of islands. Bay of Islands, yeah. Yeah. Uhhuh and then caravan around New Zealand for six weeks. Oh it was awesome. It was, and I cannot believe that I haven't been back. 'cause it was like life changing. Yeah. Yeah. As, and I've been back to Australia a few more times since then. But doing shows back to New Zealand. Yeah. Yeah. Doing shows we've done, my wife and I have done two tours of Australia. So I guess I've been to Australia three times 'cause I went on that same trip. Yep. After New Zealand. Oh yeah. Were you here in New Zealand? Were you playing music while you were here as well or? I had a little backpacker guitar with me, and we were just cruising around and met some house truckers, and and did some car park jamming, but not any, no, no gigs or anything. I wasn't at that was like the trip where I decided yeah, okay, I wanna do music for real. And so when I came back to the states that started, I'd already had a band and had been playing gigs and stuff, but I was like, no, okay, I'm not gonna go to grad school. This is what I wanna do. How old were you then? 2024. Okay. 23. 24, yeah. Was that a scary decision? Yeah, I guess so. Maybe not at the time. Like at the time it didn't, when you're 23, anything you can do, anything, and there's been scary parts along the way and like re. Reevaluate and re reinvest and dig back in moments, but on, on that same trip we were Tonga, New Zealand, Australia, and then, Indonesia, Southeast Asia and Nepal and India. And then the plan was to go to Europe. But in India I got super sick and ended up in New Delhi with Guion Bere syndrome. It was like a, basically fully paralyzed. Oh, wow. It was a real, like near death experience basically. And when I came back to the States, I was like, in a wheelchair, couldn't sing, couldn't play the guitar. , but just, I knew that's what I wanted to do, and it, and focusing in on the music and just like the people, my old, my band mates that would accommodate me and, and let me play just a little bit and encourage me back onto that journey, it was a real part of my recovery. Oh wow. How long was recovery? Like a full year. Wow. It was nuts. I was in the hospital for six weeks and when I came out, I was super emaciated and then it was just like physical therapy for better part of a year. Oh, wow. After that put, retraining every, learning how to walk again and, everything. How important was nutrition and lifestyle on that journey? I. Ex extremely. Yeah. Yeah, for sure. And surfing too. I, , I did, I through, I was like, initially body surfing and body boarding and then long boarding and stand up paddle boarding. Like it all, it opened my, through my different physical restraints, it opened my eyes to all these different ways of getting out there and wi riding waves and getting benefits, the nutrition was more like, it was more, it was for a long time it was kinda like, just eat anything and everything that you can because I was down to a skeleton and really for me, I mean I'm, I've always been thin and so it's, I just try to eat a lot but make sure I eat a lot of vegetables too. Yeah. Yeah, and that's and lifestyle is a challenge being a musician. For sure. Like having a regular. The time you go to bed and a regular time, you wake up and you're three square meals and it's sometimes I'm in a different bed in different town every night. And there's always alcohol and Yeah. Every other stuff around all the time, so it's a challenge. Yeah. But I yeah, have, I've managed to not go to jail or die. I've seen plenty of people that have, yeah. And the wreckage along the side of the ways, it's yeah. Yeah, it can go either way. Yeah. Yeah. But so when you finally made that like commitment, , okay, I'm gonna put everything into music, was it a relief in some ways? Maybe yeah. Yeah. It definitely . Yeah, allowed me to just let some of these other voices go about, I studied ge, I studied science and undergrad studied geology, and so it was like, that's a field where you there's a lot more opportunity if you go to graduate school or get a PhD. There was, I was just this question about higher more education, and lingering in the back and also would. I wondered about, being like a wilderness instructor or something like that, or a few other questions. But then just you, just diving into the band, treating it like a business, moved into a house with, my buddies, my best friends, and kinda everybody had their role. It was super DIY, , not necessarily punk rock, but yeah. Very communal. , approach to sharing our groceries and. , getting in the band and getting in the van and driving across the country and playing shows and piling together what we could, what we'd make out of it, , but yeah, it was pretty, pretty dang fun. , but also very scary and like you're watching your friends I'm gonna take this exit off this lifestyle, and, , go have, have a wife and settle down and have some kids and have a normal life. And I've, there's been. Folks that take the off-ramps when presented with them, and for whatever reason, I've continued to stay the course. Yeah. You mentioned a little bit of a, there's obviously a scientific side to you, an interest there. Yeah. Did you put some of any of that into your songwriting? Did, have you written songs based on music theory, things like that? I've written a couple, I wrote a song, it started off as like a kid song, , working at a camp in North Carolina. , and this was right around the time the band was kinda like getting serious. I'm not sure if this was, it was probably a, it was after that trip to India that I was back at camp working. , and it was for the summer solstice. And so I wrote a song explaining. The position of the planets and like what the solstice was and why we have the seasons, and then it's turned into like a jam that my band, soldier and train has played for years, but it started off as a nursery rhyme science lesson. Yeah. Huh. How cool. Yeah. Some bur some book report songs about, local history stuff too. . So what's the future hold for music? What's next? Do you have another album concept or are you gonna focus on marketing and performing this one? Yeah. It's gonna be, it's gonna be some performing and, , doing the press stuff with this record. , I'm heading to Nashville day after tomorrow, put to play a show there. And my wife, I mentioned, she's also a musician. She's got a listening party for her record. So it's coming right in the. From the Tale of Mine. So part of my going to Bluegrass Camp is gonna be to get good enough at playing bluegrass. So maybe she'll hire me in her band when her record comes out. Yeah. And and then I'm also touring with an artist named Maya d Vitri. She's a Nashville songwriter that I met when I was living there. And we've got a bunch of, we're heading out to the West coast. And March and have a bunch of tour dates throughout the summer with her. , my band, soul Driven Train is these guys that I've known since childhood here in Charleston. And we have a scattering of shows too. Next ones are in Key West Florida, so I head down to Key West at the end of the month. Yep. Yeah, just domestic US tour dates with a couple different bands. . Yep. Ah, cool. What is the. I'd like to get your opinion on the music scene in general. There's a lot of talk, , about the whole influence of AI and ai written music, et cetera. Yeah. Are you experiencing any of that or is it all hearsay? I've heard some, I've heard some pretty damn funny AI songs. Oh, shoot. There's, there. It's getting pretty good. It's getting pretty good. . I'm simultaneously terrified and fascinated with ai. I use Chat GPT. , I've resisted like using it for songwriting, though I think it would be a brilliant, songwriting partner. But I've, used it to write difficult emails or even , the other day I was doing this TV thing and I was like, Hey, what? What should I, it helped me sequence my record. I was like, gimme five different, here are the songs, and a little note about each one. Gimme five different sequence possibilities, and not that I used any of those, but it put a song first that I never would've thought of. And I'm like, oh, wow. What? Huh? What does that mean? It's just it's a, it just generates I ideas that I wouldn't necessarily think of really rapidly. , as far as like the generative. The songs and the recordings, that it can make, , I'm sure it's gonna get, it'll be perceptively good, at some point. I, it's not quite there yet. But it's pretty funny. And that's , I wish I could remember the name of this bluegrass song that my wife played for me. It was something about, ricky Scaggs in outer space. And it's very strange. Ai, AI bluegrass, but it has like a banjo role in there and it gets the elements, , yeah, I think every field is gonna be affected by it, . The music in industry's been through a lot, man. When you first. We are getting into music. A lot of musicians would've been making money off CDs, and Right. Yeah. And now we know those musicians spent all that money and they've gotta go back on tour now. Yeah, totally. Hootie and the Blowfish is a a local Charleston band that was absolutely blowing up in the early nineties, when CDs were like at the peak, yeah. Multi-platinum. Multi-platinum, cracked rear view, yeah. Held my hand. Yeah, man. And Darius is, he's still out there. I don't, I don't think he spent all his money, but he's out there still touring, doing country stuff, yeah. And Mark Bryant's still super active in Yeah. Charleston scene too, yeah. But we, I definitely missed the missed that, the boat on that one. Yep. Yeah. Wow. It's, most. I've been a live, live performer my whole career really, is how I've managed to make it work, and the recordings support that and give us something to talk about and a way to get better at capturing the songs, but most of the revenues come from face-to-face old school. Yeah. Yeah. Which I don't, th I think that's a, I think AI is a way off from being able to replicate that, the experience. I don't think it, I don't think it ever can. Yeah. Unless you're, I think you West World, no, I think that there's like that, yeah, we'll see that pretty soon. Oh, I think that might be a long run off robots. Yeah. That are basically jukeboxes, in bars that can play any song, but it's not just a jukebox, it's an actual robot mechanically striking the drums, yeah. I think I'll see it in our time, maybe. Maybe Chuck E. Cheese used to do that, but they, that was, they just play the recording and have the puppets. But I think, oh, yeah. Yeah. I think you still want to see the real person, don't you? I think so. I think it will. I think they're, I know there's, there'll be a place for that. That's always always special, of person to person. Life. Life transmission of heart and soul. Like Rick Barato tried to quant, he quantized the John Bottom beat the Led Zeppelin song. Oh, yeah. Sounded terrible. Uhhuh. Oh yeah. So yeah, Uhhuh, there's those unique drummers that you just, I don't think anyone can ever, that vibe of a band like Led Zeppelin, you can't be replicated, I don't know. I'm skeptical. I think that that you could progra, you could just dump all of those John bottom drum tracks in there. And then you'd have a robot that would have the sound. Yeah. The tone and like the discrepancy of where the pocket is. He would, it would analyze that and know where it is. But the point is it's been done. It wouldn't, it's been done. Yeah. No, it's true. It would not be new, but it would be Bon esque and it wouldn't drink all the beer. Yeah. I have to ask you, are you a fan of, and have you heard of Crowded House? Yeah. Yes. Alright, cool. Yeah. And what did what did Tom Petty mean to you? Man, I love Tom Petty. I did get to see, that was the early concert too, like high school. I saw John, Tom Petty. Oh, wow. Playing the Coliseum in Charleston. Yeah. Wow. What a songwriter. What a what an artist. I didn't the sound was bad that night and I thought the performance was lackluster, so I didn't have a great. Impression of the live show. And I've seen enough videos since then to know that yes, he was a fantastic live performer, or his band was one of the best ever, but as a 16-year-old I was kinda like unimpressed, but yeah. But yeah. Yeah. I love Tom Petty. Yeah. That Wildflowers album is probably maybe my favorite. Oh yeah. Yeah. Special. Yeah. Awesome. Where can people go to find out more about you and listen to your music? I am on the streaming services. My name's Joel Timmons and joel timmons.com is my website. So that's the main portal. I'm a reluctant user of Instagram. That's about my only social media footprint. Yep. But I'm on there pretty regularly. Yeah. Oh, awesome. I'll put links to everything or your website and your your Spotify profile, et cetera, in the show notes. And Joel, thank you so much for your time. I really appreciate it man, Michael, thanks a lot. I appreciate you having me on. Cool. Alright.

[https://images.squarespace-cdn.com/content/v1/6620239f21f2fa5a7b4e4234/fd3008d5-a2ed-4b36-aded-3bab383d4adb/Dee+Jay+Morris?format=1000w] What happens when a lifelong connection to the ocean turns into a mission to surf every single day through winter? Whether you're a surfer, an ocean lover, or someone chasing consistency in your passions, this episode dives deep into the transformative power of daily dedication and the personal growth that comes from truly connecting with the ocean. If you've ever wondered how doing something every day could reshape your mindset, this is for you. * Hear how DJ Morris turned his childhood love of the ocean into a thriving surf school and daily surfing ritual. * Discover the surprising challenges and benefits of surfing every day through a New Zealand winter. * Learn the biggest beginner mistakes in surfing—and how to actually pick the right board for your skill level and local waves. Tune in now to get inspired by DJ’s story of ocean connection, consistency, and the joy of sharing surfing with others—this episode might just change the way you approach your own passions.   Follow Dee Jay on Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/deejaymorris/ [https://www.instagram.com/deejaymorris/] Hawkes Bay Surf School: https://www.facebook.com/HawkesBaySurfSchool/ [https://www.facebook.com/HawkesBaySurfSchool/] Song - Fernweh By Nachur The Surf Mastery Podcast For the passionate surfer—whether you're a weekend warrior, a surf dad, or an older surfer—this podcast is all about better surfing and deeper stoke. With expert surf coaching, surf training, and surfing tips, we’ll help you catch more waves, refine your paddling technique, and perfect your pop up on a surfboard. From surf workouts to handling wipeouts, chasing bigger waves, and mastering surf technique, we’re here to make sure you not only improve but truly enjoy surfing more—so you can get more out of every session and become a wiser surfer. Go from Beginner or intermediate Surfer to advanced  Transcript When did you start surfing? Started surfing probably around like properly, going out around the age of 10. So I actually started in surf lifesaving when I was seven. . And that got me not introduced to the ocean, but just got me confident in the waves and that, and then ended up. Yeah. Going from those long paddleboards into a short board that someone found on the beach, I think had been fixed up. Yeah. It was an old season board and the nose had actually been snapped off and they had fixed it by just rounding the nose. And then gave you that a whack and Yeah. Fell in love with it. . Yeah, so that was about 10 years old. And then kept going. And that was just out here. That was at Waimarama So I grew up at Waimarama, still living at Waimarama. Have moved around a bit. But yeah, back there Raising a family. Do you remember like the first time you caught like a green wave? Yeah. Like really? Yeah. I definitely remember that what actually wasn't even on that board that I was talking about. It was on a, so my dad used to, , manage bars and run nightclubs and he had an a mate that had a lion red like longboard or mini mal. Mini mal . Yeah. And I remember him being like, oh, you gotta come out of the whitewash and come right out the back. And it wasn't, it mustn't have been that big. Felt big. And then he pushed me in on it, and I just remember that feeling like, whoa, okay. Did it. And then actually paddled that board back out to him so I could do it again. Yeah. And what does surfing mean to you now? Surfing means everything to me like. At the moment it's, well, it's every day. And then I, , part owner with Bronson Primer in the surf school, Hawke Space Surf School. So it's my income and it's my outlet and yeah, I'm focused in on it. Like super focused in on it at the moment. Yeah. Yeah. Just loving it. So every day at the moment. Tell us about that. Yeah, so surfing every day of winter, it wasn't even meant to be like this thing that it's kind of turned into. It was just kind of a goal for myself to more connect with the ocean and, 'cause I'm doing the surf lessons I wanted to. Get out and get that connection properly in tune with it, and teaching people how to get in that connection. And I thought, well, through winter, I'm not the biggest fan of like cold weather in the winter here. So I was like, I'll make a challenge for myself. But then I got real into like documenting it. Mm-hmm. And I put it out on social media and that was for like, , how can I explain it? To , make it accountable? Yeah. So if I did stop, people might reach out and be like, Hey, you didn't even make it. So that kept it going, but then it got easier and easier. Like, well, it hasn't been hard yet. Because I love surfing and I love getting out there. There's been a couple of dicey days that were like, yeah, oh, , I'm not even gonna make it out where there was no back to get out to. So I just grabbed the foam top and jumped on a couple of little ones on the inside. Yeah. But yeah, surfing every day of winter, it's been awesome. Yeah. Day 81 today, day 81. So what, technically there's 90 days. Yeah. Yeah. Technically. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Going through it. Yeah. Oh cool. And what is it getting colder and colder as you go? The water it has, but then like, I dunno if I'm getting used to it more, but there's like colder places like Te Awanga for example. That little outlet of the river that's real cold. Yep. And then I surfed a couple of times at Perfume Point off Napier. Yep. And yeah, that was freezing. But the wetsuits that we have now are mean. Yeah. Like can't beat them. Rocking those four threes booties. It's my second season ever in my life. In booties. Yeah. First season was last year and I was like, didn't know if I was onto it. And just a different feel, eh? Like I know. I liked feeling the board. Yeah. And then, yeah. Put them on and Yeah. Yeah. You get to a certain age and your feet just start hurting in the cold. Like it's, you can't not wear them. Yeah. That's definitely it. Yeah. Wait, you gone gloves? I didn't wanna put that one Gloves yet? Age no gloves yet? No. Gloves and hoodies messed me up. Even I've, I've only just gotten used to the earplugs. Hmm. I don't hear yourself. Do you wear earplugs? Yeah, I wear earplugs. If I don't, I'm so prone to ear infection, so I'm just used to them now. Oh yeah. I wear the surfers one so you can still hear. Yeah. Yeah, I got those one. It's not the same. No. And it does take a bit of getting used to. Yeah. But, um, yeah, and my hearing's bad, like already, so when I've got those in and people are talking to me, I'm like, yep. I'm like screaming at them. Yeah. You could, the docks plugs, have you seen those? You could try those. Yeah. They've, they've vented. So they don't, what I find is that it's not about stopping all of the water. It's about stopping, the pressure of the water going in. So there, there's these ones called vented docks, and they've got a little hole in them so you can actually hear pretty good. Oh, true. And they let a little bit of water in, but there's no, like lots of, there's no pressure and no lots of water going in. Yeah. Those, those, uh, those do okay for me as well. But, um, yeah, no, earplugs are just a. A habit for me now. You get used to it Nice sort of thing. Yeah. But yeah, slowly getting used to it, so, yep. It's good. You get to know the next age bracket is when you have to wear gloves when it's cold. Otherwise your hands just hurt. Stop moving. Yeah. Luckily I've, I've surfed in like cold or times where I remember my hands freezing up. This winter has been like, everybody's saying that it's been like quite a wet, bad winter and I'm like, man, it's been mint for me. I don't know. Yeah. Just in a different flow of things, I guess. Yeah. So every, every day this winter. And has anyone joined you? Anyone jumped on the bandwagon No, not really. No. Joining me to come every day, but heaps of people I've been surfing with. Yeah. Yeah. There's a couple of local guys out at WA that I kind of rope in when it gets to a decent size and I'm like, I don't really wanna surf by myself. And I go jump around there and be like, you guys want to come out? They're like, yeah, as a kid. I'm like, yeah, it's real good. But yeah, it's been, it's been fun. Yeah, definitely been fun. What do you think that consistency does for your surfing? Oh man, I was talking to someone about this. I reckon it's got me into like this perfect flow state on, on surfing and the way that this has been moving, , going on tv, which is weird. It's just hooked people into it. And then yeah. But with this surfing side, I've definitely seen a different style come outta myself because I've been changing boards up quite a lot at the moment. Mm-hmm. And. I've been surfing like to myself, like real good. I don't know. It's just, yeah, like I said, connecting. Yeah, especially with the ocean and that and knowing where to be. Like I used to kind of rush surfs. Like it would be like on a timeline or I'd jump out just because there's a wave that I've seen. But now I can just walk down to the beach and be like, oh yeah, that looks like a good little spot. Sit there, watch it. And then even days where it's like, okay, I gotta get this done 'cause I've got other stuff to do. I can now time it at like, oh yeah, I know this Tide, the wind's doing this. . So like that connection's really helped. Mm. Yeah. 'cause you get in tune with the tide, the banks. Yeah. The wind. And you just, and I've been, and I can see the banks like moving. Yeah. It's crazy. Like different little peaks and that. . So it's been, yeah. Definitely helped my surfing. Yeah. It's like a long-term relationship surfing. Yeah, it is. Yeah. Finally got it back. Yeah. But no, the, the longer you stick with it, the more effort you put in, the more it gives back, you know? Yeah. That's it. Yeah, it's been cool, like going to just beaches along, in Hawke's Bay and just yeah, finding that right wave and people even messaging me like, oh, there's a wave coming over here. We'll be surfing today. Yeah, I'm going out now. Okay. Let's go find it. Oh, cool. Yeah. How would you describe your relationship to the ocean? I've got a long relationship with the ocean. I love it. I. Can't be away from it too long, even if it is just a flat body of ocean. No swell I grew up around it obviously my whole life, but my dad and my granddad were fishermen. So I live off it as well, like during the, well now during the summer, love seafood, love fish, gather from it, and then now my business is in it. So I spend a lot of time with it and then respect it as well. Like a lot. Mm-hmm. Because I know as my first job, I was a lifeguard, so I know what it can take from us and what it can give. So, you know, I love, love the ocean. Was any gnarly experiences as a lifeguard? Yeah, like we had a few, we never had. Drownings, like we saw them drowning and then they drowned. It was just like searching for bodies that had been, and that's pretty gnarly. Like Mm, like you know that someone's out there, but it's been too long for them to be alive, so you know that they're probably gone. But then you got like the family there that are holding on hope and you kind of want to. Give them hope. Mm. But you know, an hour out there in that condition. Yeah. Unless they're on the beach somewhere lost, they're definitely gone. And yeah, you grab your fins and your tube and you have to go out. Or like when I first started, 'cause I was the rookie, you jump in the water with your fins and tube. And you're just floating and there's other guys in the boat and you're just sitting out like, I wanna find them, but I don't want to touch them. Yeah. Oh, that's heavy. Yeah. Yeah. But then beach crashes. Oh, well, yeah. People, uh, not crashes. People running into the water and there's like holes or a sandbar and just banging their knees out and like coming up and you're like, oh, yeah. Yeah. How long did you do that for? So that was my first paid job. I did it, so I used to compete in it. So I did the boards and did the swimming. Then really got into the, , irb, so the racing boats, it was just a bit, more adrenaline really and real fun. Had a lot of mates that we all did it together. So I think I kind of left when I was around 18, 19. So I did it for. Yeah. Probably a good 10 years. Mm-hmm. Mm. And then surfing kind of took o, kept that relationship going with the ocean. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I went straight into surfing. Mm-hmm. And just kept that up. Yeah. But then I kind of dropped out for a while as well. Some of us do. I went into the hospitality scene and that kind of took over majority of. , well good. Seven to eight years. Yeah. And I was like on and off surfing, so I was , oh yeah. Go out for a wave. But kind of lost that, , fitness level. Mm-hmm. Was definitely it. Doing late nights and then Yeah. Everything that comes with hospitality. Yeah. So, yeah. Didn't lose touch with the ocean, but definitely lost like the flow of it. Yeah. And just, yeah, it was kind of. If I was around it, I would surf. Yep. Not like hunting a swell or, yeah. And now it's every day obviously. And you've also, , bought into the surf school. Yeah. What was that transition like going from surfing being a passion to then it being teaching it for a living? Like did, help them out during summers. Yep. For probably two years. Oh yeah. Yeah. So I got a taste of it then. Mm-hmm. And it's, yeah, like it's pretty cool as you know, like teaching someone how to surf, just the energy and the water when people are like catching their own wave and being able to stand up and finally it's like one of those things, when you really wanna do something and they're the people that are coming to the beach and then they finally do it it's. Like an energy wave just comes over you. Mm. And but it was a cool transition, it's been, yeah. Awesome. Yep. What has it taught you about your own surfing? , probably Oh, gaining that connection, seeing how stoked they are just to be in the water, catching anything. And then you kind of pick up little tips. Sometimes you're just in the flow of things and you're teaching them something and then you're like, oh man, I need to do that a little bit more. You know? It's, yeah, you're analyzing them and then once you go and do something and you're like, I've said to someone to do that and I'm not doing it myself. Yeah. Like, just breathe, relax, you know, things, little things. Yeah. Yeah, there, it's a reflection of what you need. You're always teaching yourself in some way. Oh yeah, definitely. Yeah. Yeah. And you mentioned boards, like what's, what board are you riding at the moment? At the moment I'm riding this twin fin, , J Dub five eight. Like it's real thick, real easy to paddle. It's been like a hand me down while I. It was made for one of our mates, Damien. Then Bronson got it and then was like, this is too short. I was like, I'll give it a go. It was like perfect for Te Awanga. Yeah. I imagine when you first started working with the surf school as an employee, and now fast forward, what, four years is it? Yeah, been four years. What's changed in the way you teach an absolute beginner? , probably the confidence in teaching. Like when I first started it was kind of like, okay, I know how to surf and I know like what I'm doing in the ocean. But then it was kind of relaying it to them in a way that they get it because I'm trying to teach, like you say, you teach yourself everything, but I'm saying it how I. Probably wanted to hear it where it needs to be, not, not that it's like dumbed down or anything, but put into terms where it's go slower. Where I'd just be like, get up, get up, get up. You can do it. You know? Then, then it's like, actually I'm like shouting at them to stand up quicker, where it's like, okay, just breathe. Take your time. Get your balance first. Stand up. Mm-hmm. So I think that's , changed a bit. The way that I teach them is. How it's kind of changed into it and then yeah , it's been been pretty cool showing them how to catch waves surf, obviously. . What's the biggest, mistake that you see the beginner in that early learner make? , biggest mistake. Like when we are teaching them or, or even when you just see them Oh. Like sometimes rushing and then kind of confidence level to what the, their level actually is and probably boards. . Like we were talking about Yeah. The wrong board. Oh, yeah. But. You just need to pick the right, well, yeah, pick the right board is probably the biggest one. I'm trying to think , actually last time I was seeing somebody learning Yeah. Like they go hard out and get, you know, performance boards from the shops that are selling them here. Like, I don't, you go into, I reckon surf shops would sell a whole lot more boards if it was for the waves that we've got here. Yep. I agree this, but the industry just gives them the latest. Yeah. Whatever John John's writing, the industry pumps to them and yeah, someone comes in, I need a board, and they're like. And I was a sucker for that when I was younger. Yeah. We all, yeah. I was like, go in and be like, oh, that one. Then I'd paddle it out. But it was a lot, um, lighter on the feet. But yeah, for the waves that we get here, like even when we are sending, , like our, our, um, students to go find a board and you know, they've. Not just mastered the foamy, but you can tell that they don't want a foamy. Yeah, we try push it always. Yeah. Especially kids, like kids, they'll probably get the foamy, but someone that's done say a few lessons with us and is like, what? Like proper board do I go get, we lean them into , a nice fish, big, long, or even a mini Mel. Yep. Longboard. And say, start there and then start dropping down. And then you see them come back out and they're Yeah. They're on a high performance board. You're like, and he's like, oh yeah, but he said it's like six seven. Like, okay. I don't think I can catch waves on that board yet today. , I know what you mean. Yeah. But yeah, and especially with the level of their surfing. Mm. So you're matching a high performance board? Well, not, yeah. I don't know what they, like I said, I'm a little bit different in the way of the surf culture. I like to pick up a surfboard and feel it, like, and still looking at dimensions and what it's doing. Mm. And the, the new ones, ah, what is it? Liters. Liters. Yeah. Yeah. They're like, oh, you know, but I'm this way and I've got this many leaders. And I'm like, well, where are the leaders? 'cause I don't know how you're gonna paddle it. Yep. Oh, I know what you mean. It's kind of a guide. I think Leaders is a guide for performance Short boards. Yeah. Kind of. Oh, is it gonna help? Is it gonna float me? Kind of guide. Yeah. Yeah. That's about it. Yeah. It's irrelevant otherwise 'cause Yeah, and you're right. Most people, it's so funny, you still, you go to. TA and it's waist high and there's a bunch of kids on performance short boards like pumping and not catching waves, jumping up and down. And then mind you, I was one of those screaming, we've there wave. Just kidding. You come back frustrated and you're like, oh man, should I go give them this one? And then Yeah, get out there. We've all been there. Yeah. But yeah. Now a bit more foam is your friend. Oh yeah, definitely. No, yeah. That's super fun. Yeah. And those soft tops, I mean. They are fun, man. , and they're pretty, nowadays they're, they're made pretty well. Yeah. And now it's got me when I'm on a shortboard thinking about , oh, I could do a turn there, but I'm just like gliding along the way, past that section. I'm like, oh, what did I just do? Damn it. Okay. But just getting that, yeah. The line, eh, finding that perfect line and, yeah. Just feeling comfortable on the wave. Especially I love getting on bigger waves now, you know? 'cause it's been quite small lately. Today was a good little surf, but. You get on, say I'm on the foam here at knee height waves and you're just cruising. Then you get onto a proper wave and see it stand up in front of you and you kind of just have that confidence of just standing there, just watching it. Oh, well I find now I'm just Yeah, it's bigger, bigger, bigger. Ah, that's the one. I might not even turn on it. Get to the little end section to a little. Whack and then it's , that was sick. Yeah. That was done. That's all it is. Surfing. Yeah. Yeah. That's all it needs to be. Yeah. It's just the, the pure joy of being on a wave. Right. That's enough. Yeah. That's it. Yeah, because that's the connection to the ocean. You're waiting for it. You're on a wave searching for it standing there. Yeah. Sometimes it's all it needs to be. Yeah. That's that. What's, what does the future hold this summer for the surf school, we're pretty busy, so we do school lessons as well. Yeah. The schools come out and we take them. , and then we had a real good last summer, it actually hasn't stopped, so I'm still doing lessons through the winter Oh wow. With people. So it's been cool. Bit different. Because you have to explain that it's cold, real cold, and they get a shock. But everybody's been amped in it. Mm. , and the waves have been reasonably good. You know, we're having those offshore winds as well. . And yeah, tides are all matching up to the weekends, so it's been, yeah. Real fun. That's good. Yeah. But the summer, hopefully we are pumping. Last summer was real good. There was some big days in there. , big days in the water. Yeah. Just staying salty really? Yeah. So, um, what is the, is there a website for your, for the surf school? Not at the moment. So it's just getting built, . But we run our, Hawke space surf school. Facebook page. Okay. Facebook page. That's Facebook page. Yeah. That's what happens here in New Zealand, people don't have websites. They just have a Facebook page. Yeah. It's just kind of easier con to control at the moment. But yeah, the website's literally being made as we speak. Yep. Yeah. So that'll come out. Oh yeah. It'll be def , it's just done to Hawkes Bay Surf School when it's out. Okay. Is it Hawkes Bay spelled out or hb , Hawkes Bay spelled out. Yep. But then our Instagram page is different because someone's got Hawke Space Surf School. Oh. So we, we just tried trying to get it back now. Oh yeah. But it might've been made up and now no one knows the password before me. Oh, okay. Yeah, yeah, Okay. Well, if someone goes on Facebook and searches Hawks Bay Surf School, , you'll come up. We'll be there. Yeah. And on Instagram it's hb HB Surf School. Yeah. And then what if people wanna follow your , surf everyday journey and stuff? So that's on DJ Morris? Just on Instagram? Yeah. Or Facebook. Yeah. Yeah. And that's D-E-J-A-Y? D-E-J-A-Y. Okay. Yep. Morris, M-O-R-R-I-S. Alright, cool man. Yeah, I'm sure there'll be people that want to check that out and, . Come and get a lesson as well. Yeah. Try surfing if you're a local listener and haven't tried it and Yeah. Waimarama is the perfect beach for it. Yeah, it really is. All right, well thanks for joining us man. Awesome. Thank you've, appreciate it. This has been awesome.

[https://images.squarespace-cdn.com/content/v1/6620239f21f2fa5a7b4e4234/25182929-7b0d-4cb9-a1ea-316e051a6ecb/Screen+Shot+2025-03-13+at+6.55.46+PM.png?format=1000w] What if the key to how to surf better wasn’t just in technique, but in how you think about the sport? Whether you’re a beginner surfer learning the pop-up on a surfboard, a traveling surfer chasing bigger waves, or a weekend warriorlooking to refine your surf positioning, your mindset shapes your experience in the water. In this episode, host Michael Frampton sits down with Aaron James—surfer, philosophy professor, and author—to explore the deeper meaning of surfing beyond the pursuit of perfection. Aaron shares how he evolved from high-performance surfing in world-class waves to embracing adventure surfing—a mindset that prioritizes connection with nature, uncrowded waves, and personal fulfillment over competition. Their conversation dives into surfing tips for longevity, movement, and mental resilience, touching on how surf trainingcan extend both your physical abilities and your love for the sport. They also explore the psychology of surfing positioning, the social dynamics of the lineup, and how surfing parallels music and dance as a form of self-transcendence. * Shift your mindset on how to surf by redefining success beyond competition. * Learn how philosophy applies to surfing, from the psychology of localism to the joy of riding waves for their own sake. * Discover how surf coaching, surf workouts, and surf training can keep you surfing stronger for longer. Hit play now to rethink your approach to surfing, whether you're just starting out with beginner surfing or refining your surfing positioning in pursuit of bigger waves. https://learn.surfmastery.com/the-philosophy-of-surfing [https://learn.surfmastery.com/the-philosophy-of-surfing] www.surfmastery.com [https://www.surfmastery.com/] Aarons' books: https://www.amazon.com/stores/Aaron-James/author/B007CL9J5M?ref=ap_rdr&isDramIntegrated=true&shoppingPortalEnabled=true [https://www.amazon.com/stores/Aaron-James/author/B007CL9J5M?ref=ap_rdr&isDramIntegrated=true&shoppingPortalEnabled=true] Other books mentioned: The Mature Mind - Gene D. Cohen The Mindful Body - Ellen Langer Transcript: Intro Aaron is a professor of philosophy. He is an author—you can check his books out on Amazon; there will be a link to his Amazon in the show notes. James is also an incredibly good surfer.  James spent decades chasing perfection in the water, from Lower Trestles to Indonesian surf trips. But in recent years, just like myself, his relationship with surfing has shifted. He is no longer trying to find the perfect wave and seeking performance but instead embraces what he calls ‘adventure surfing,’ which is a mindset that values connection and attunement over competition or dominance—putting pure stoke before social status. In this conversation, we explore how surfing shapes our lives, our philosophy, and even our longevity. We talk about one's philosophy of surfing is the foundation of your experience in the water, and how it even affects your performance.  Is the surfing that you do coming from you, or is it influenced by the surfing industry and the surf media? Are you a product of surfing as a sport, or are you a creative surfer seeing surfing as an art form? We take this deeper—we talk about why surfing is so meaningful. We talk about how surfing not only satisfies our animistic, primal nature—the need to move through and attune to the environment—but also our higher self, our spiritual selves, our desire to connect to something bigger than ourselves. We liken surfing to music and dance, showing how surfing is not just movement but rhythm and flow, much like how musicians and dancers think with sound and motion. We discuss the meaning of life and, of course, the meaning of surfing. We touch on the concept of God, and how surfing can bring you closer to God. Why surfing isn't a pointless or selfish pursuit but can be selfless and an expression of something deeply human and transcendent. We also dive into the dynamics of the lineup—the democracy, (or the lack thereof), in surfing. The psychology of dominant surfers, and how lineup hierarchy shapes our experience in the water.  Finally, we talk about learning to love surfing simply for the love of surfing and finding your own unique way of enjoying a wave without it being dictated by external or internal pressures and expectations. So, if you've ever experienced shame and frustration with surfing, questioned your relationship with surfing, wondered whether you're chasing the right goals in the water, or just love thinking about surfing in a deep way, this episode is for you. This episode will get you thinking, and I have created a mini eBook—a workbook—to help guide you through developing your own personal surfing philosophy. That is available on my website. Not only is it a great companion with practical exercises to go alongside this episode, but it is also a great way to support this show itself because it is about the price of a cup of coffee. The link to that is in the show notes. The other best way to support this show is to share this episode with a friend. And without further ado, I give you my conversation with Professor Aaron James. Michael Frampton: [00:00:00] Hey, how are you? Aaron James: Yeah, pretty good. , thanks for accommodating the time change. I had to get the tide window on my spot. Oh, really narrow tide window. What's your podcast about? What's the idea? Michael Frampton: The surf mastery podcast, it's inspiration and education for better surfing performance and longevity. That's the tagline. Oh, wow. Okay. Wow. I'm super into longevity stuff. I started the show like 10 years ago where I was really interested in shortboarding and learning how to do a better turn , and get barreled. And since then life is, , that was when I was living in Australia. I lived, we spent four years surfing little doom living in Malibu as well. Oh, okay. , got three kids now, , been through a lot, lost a wife, lost a job back in New Zealand. So surfing has, the show's become quite eclectic and it's more, and [00:01:00] it's more about, , what's your relationship with surfing and how does surfing affect your life and how does it make it better or worse and that sort of stuff. , yeah. Aaron James: My relationship to it has changed in the last year or so. So Michael Frampton: . Tell me about that. Aaron James: Oh yeah, sure. , so I spent for my teens on, so now I'm 53. So for over 30 years, I was doing, what I call perfection and looking for perfect waves. And performance, perfection and performance, trying to perform in perfect, as good ways as I can get, right? So, became a good surfer, surf traveled my whole life, went to all the hot, the highest points. Started going to, , Indo a month every year, but others, other good world class spots. I'm a, , academic, a professor, so we have our calendar. We have , a lot of free time, totally free and flexible time. So, it's totally accommodates surf travel easily. So, I've done that the whole, since my, you know, twenties. Since I was in grad school, even college, but, so, but then I just got to, and then [00:02:00] at home, the, at home , the way to finesse living in Southern California was, as you know, the crowds look at the good way to crowd it. Surfrider Malibu is a nightmare, I made lower trestles, my home really got it wired. I don't know everybody and I just sort of grasped the nettle and just learned to get good, the good, get good waves at a lot of good ways that most crowded I've learned. So I did that for 20 years and then I, and I just got burnt out, totally burnt out finally on it after about 20 years of doing that. And then I was going for over a decade to Neas for a month at a time. I throw in some mental wise in Bali also, but I got burnt out on surfing Lagundry Bay. But I really was really dedicated for a decade. Like Michael Frampton: yeah, I've seen footage of absolutely ripping out there. I've seen the footage. Aaron James: Oh, cool. Thanks. Yeah. Yeah. So I, I did that and I just just cut. I mean, it was just the. It's partly like, um, it's harder to keep up the per level of performance. You're always, you're kind of sliding and then you're trying to make up the deficit and the downward trend is, the trend is down, but you're trying to keep [00:03:00] it, keep the slope as, as general as possible. And that was like a goal. It was fine. I did that for, , still did that for a decade. And I'm still proud of myself and still had, , sessions that are really , Peak of my life and surfing career. And, , but I just got so over the crowd, , the usual crowd dynamics and stuff, you know, originally inspired a book about , that's called assholes. I have a theory about assholes inspired by surfers, probably. And some of my colleagues is academia and servers, but like surfers did it really well. And every surfer is , knows the asshole and lineup like really well. So I just got totally burned out , on the whole thing. I just, , just didn't feel like surfing lowers. I didn't care about surfing Lagundra Bay. , it's fine to go into the mental wise, like less crowded zones or whatever, but the thing that I, and it took me a little while there. Sort of figure out to redefine. I feel like you don't discover the fountain of youth. This is a longevity point. You don't discover the fountain of youth and just decide to just don't go drink from it anymore. You know what I mean? So it's like all these sort of incredible benefits from surfing, this effortless fitness and health and like [00:04:00] great attitude towards life comes all this this existential bomb and all these good things just come if you just stick with surf, if you just surf. Or live your life around it. So it's , it's pretty stupid to just not surf. So it was like, that was, and it had never been thinkable. I didn't ever live that way. So I, but I didn't know how to renegotiate my relationship to it. Trying to figure out, how to do that. But I, it helped, I sort of redefined. So for the first time in my life, I rethought of what I was doing before was. It's not just any kind of surfing. It's not just surfing. It's specific surfing, specific goals, getting the best waves you can and surfing as well as possible. It's perfection performing. That was the abiding goal. And I decided there's lots of different kinds of surfing and I can do a different kind of surfing, which has different goals and different standards of success. So if I do a different kind of surfing, I'm not doing a shitty job of. Of surfing. I'm just not doing perfection and performance. I'm not doing that. There's a different game, right? It's not if you change the game, you're not doing bad [00:05:00] moves in the other game or change the dance. You're not doing bad moves in a different dance. You're just doing a different dance, right? Or different game. , so I decided to redefine a different way of surfing, which has its own standards. And I just worked that out for myself. And then, and I call that adventure surfing. And the goals there to connect, just be out in the water, be in the ocean, surf beautiful places with light crowds and interesting, tricky, difficult waves. Like where there's a little bit of a challenge, just something interesting about it, you know, you're out surfing, but there's like a weird reef that doesn't break that often, no barely surfs, but you're the only one on it, but you're getting it wired, you know, kind of thing. The regular spot I surf now at Crystal Cove, , I used to walk my dog there, , every day before I went to lowers, and I'd call it the shit wave, because I was like, what's that? Because I just, like Just shows my attitude towards it. Now I surf the shit wave all the time. I don't call it the shit wave anymore. But it has a fun, it's a reef with a fun bowl, you know, so I've got this bowl really wired. So now, and it's kind of, and I like, like the wonkiness of it, , , and it can be fun. And you're [00:06:00] not, I'm not trying to, I don't get the same, like open face and do the same open face turns. Like you can do it lowers on every wave, but that's not the goal, right? So the goal is just to get the interesting waves, to just try out new things, be on it when the window's on. And then it's never that crowded. It's totally beautiful place. It's incredibly and that's the closest place to my house anyway. So it's super easy. And then it turns out at Crystal Cove, there's in winter, there's other way and summer too, there's, there's some spots that get really, really good occasionally. So, and a lot of people who don't, don't check it all the time. Don't score it. Right. So now , I get those spots when they're on. And, so I've kind of recreated this different way of surfing, but it's. Like my friends who know me, like knowing how I lived and how I surf, like they kind of look at like, what do you surf out there? Oh, just a little left, just that left. They go over and over. , they don't get it, , but I'm like, it's a different thing. know, anyway, so now, now I brought back the sort of child, like teenage joy of surfing back. , I was just , so stoked to surf again and just, and, , and , [00:07:00] there's less sort of chase about it. , I mean, as usual, I have to wait and stuff for waves, but there's less like the thing that kind of become more palpable as you're chasing waves is you're waiting ever longer, it's harder and harder to score your standards go up because you surf a lot of perfect waves. And then, you know, it's not just any good waves. It's , these are the most perfect, perfect waves you've ever, and then you're now, and then you see all the times the way now you see all the waves, you're not surfing all the time. So no matter how styled out you are as a traveling pro, you're, you're missing waves somewhere. So , there's this whole kind of cruel, it's made the chase aspect harder. , and then lowers got worse. Cause I used to surf a certain window where I could get it relatively crowded and then the cam kind of screw up that window and then the. The professionalization culture and then the, the e bikes and all this stuff just kind of screwed it all up. So it's a nightmare now. I mean, I, I love it. I love the place and I'm grateful for, you know, for it. , but yeah, so I've totally renegotiate now. It's totally different kind of server. I just don't have any temptations or flowers. Even though I, you know, I check it, we'll see it [00:08:00] occasionally, but I just. It's fine. Or even go back to Lagundry Bay where I don't have any temptation, just inclination. You know, I'd want to go to other spots. They're just less, could be lesser waves, but just less crowded. Michael Frampton: I love that. I can relate to it a lot because that's, that basically describes my relationship with surfing now. Aaron James: Oh, okay. Right. Michael Frampton: And it's been like that for the past sort of five years to kind of happened when I was living and I spent, you know, good four years living in. Australia, shortboarding, wanting to get better at their performance style of surfing, traveling to Indo and then living in Malibu, tried long boarding first points and shortboarding Zuma and traveling down to Nicaragua. And then I surfed with Devon Howard one day out at little doom. Aaron James: And I know I'm from lowers. Yeah. Michael Frampton: Yeah. And Aaron James: yeah, Michael Frampton: he had quite a profound influence on me and suggested, well, why don't you get a glide? He just saw the way I was surfing and what I, the kind of waves I was looking, he's like, why don't you get a glider? You just, [00:09:00] I went down to San Diego and got an 11 foot glider off Josh hall. And then that is the board that I've been riding ever since. And I'm just looking for little unique waves that are hard to serve or getting it and just surfing away from crowds. Aaron James: Yeah. Michael Frampton: Yeah. And I love it. Aaron James: That's really cool. Yeah. Michael Frampton: Back Aaron James: to the simple joy of surfing and not exactly, Michael Frampton: I think it's still a pursuit of surf mastery because there's a different kind of challenge within that. Aaron James: Yeah. Michael Frampton: , I'm a big believer of, any sort of relationship, whether it be with a human or the ocean. If it's not growing, it's dying has to be growing in some way and surf mastery doesn't necessarily mean I'm trying to master surfing. It's just the path of improving in some way, whether that be mastering a different board or learning how to ride smaller waves, or even just maintaining your surfing standards as you age is a form of that. Aaron James: Yeah. I think about it in terms of attunement. , [00:10:00] it's a skillful activity and what you're going for is attunement with wave. But the way we do that is by. By constantly like automating certain skills and then paying attention to new challenges. And that's the way we stay attuned and develop our skillful practice, and one version of it is , you're trying to be the best server you can be, but it doesn't have to be that at all. It can just be, it can be just switching up challenges and trying different things. Michael Frampton: Yeah. Aaron James: But yeah. Michael Frampton: There's something you said there, you , you said you, I don't know if you use the words specifically, but you changed your surfing philosophy. Let's say, , is that something that you sat down and thought about intentionally? Yeah. important is that process? Aaron James: I don't know how other people go do it. , but I'm a philosopher, so I'm a cogitator. So I use my philosophical skills. I mean, the skills really. Help me. So I defined the old thing I was doing the old activity. I couldn't I read that point. I said internalize the standards of that activity. So I had a hard time shaking the feeling that anything I was gonna do is just gonna be an inferior version. It was gonna be I was [00:11:00] doing shitty surfing, a shitty surfer, low standards, subpar crap waves, not surfing. Well, I had to sort of takes a certain amount of reframing Intellectual and cognitive reframing to think, no, wait, those are good standards for a different activity, but then that fills up with thought is like, but if you're doing a different activity, it can have its own standards and then you don't apply the standards across. you don't judge, you don't judge pop music by the standards of whether Vivaldi and Mozart are great classical music, you're just judging apples and oranges if you say no, if you ask what's the best song or who's the best art musical artist ever, it's , that's not even an intelligible question, right? , you could be asked, what are the most. Important genres of music, but then you're going to say, well, there's classical and then there's, jazz and, that kind of thing. But these just have, they're different types of things. So you and you assess them by their own standards, right? And it's not clear if you're just talking about the like music period. If there's any set of [00:12:00] standards that are specific enough to just sort of pick out the supreme form of music. I mean, some people have those views, but it's fairly silly. I you're just saying, no, look, it's all, it's Beethoven's knife. That's the pinnacle of music. , Michael Frampton: Surfing is far more like music than it is like tennis. Aaron James: Yeah. There are a lot of different kinds of surfing and they're all good in their own very different ways and you assess them by the standards appropriate to the genre of surfing. So those kinds of thoughts like what I had to go through to just feel differently about. This new thing I was doing. Because then when I had a thought like, Oh, well, no, these are shitty waves . No, that's not, this is successful adventure surfing. This is good adventure surfing. I'm doing well. This is a good goodness of a kind, Really rethinking that then gave me, freed me up to just enjoy it for what it is and, and suddenly I had all the affect, just the pure stoke coming back and this the connecting to the sublimity and beauty of it. The stuff that really, you know, that surfers know, but don't ever, don't really talk about that much, but that's what Stoke is all about. Being caught up in the confluence [00:13:00] of skill and changing circumstance. That's the way I think about it abstractly, but that's what Stoke is about. And like that, it just brings, it brought all that back, all that sort of sense of things came flooding back. Michael Frampton: Yeah. Aaron James: I already had that broad idea of what surfing is, even though when I was still in the perfection performance mode, but there was like further intellectual work to do to reframe it. But then I, once I thought it through, I just felt permission to go and just enjoy, just never go to lowers anymore and just surf crystal Cove every day. And just whatever. I don't care if my friends think that this is. I'm doing something dumb. I'm really stoked. I'm like down there by myself surfing fun ways. I'm like, what do I care? It's beautiful. , I'm having a totally pure surfing experience, doing the same thing I loved when I was, 12. Yeah, so Michael Frampton: sounds like the adventure surfing is a, as much of a journey within as it is without, Aaron James: ah, well, it was for me to get to there to start to that. Yeah. I mean, where the, [00:14:00] where it goes, I guess The venture serving might require doing some adventure, actual exploring weird waves, you know, Michael Frampton: every wave is different. So it's always, it's the, if you always, yeah, you can, Aaron James: you can Michael Frampton: always. If you're trying to get closer to the center of now , and be present, then it's, that's part of the adventure. Right? Aaron James: Well, some people could do adventure surfing and never have done anything else and never really thought about it. That's just the thing they always did. And that's the thing they were always at peace with and that, and they, and that. They love, always love surfing. They're always, and they never had to think, rethink it, or they just saw the other things as forms of surfing has never had any appeal or whatever. So they could be at adventure surfing, but total unreflective about it. So there was never any internal journey. They just fell into, sorry, I'm a philosopher. So I think that's a possibility, but for me, making a transition from one kind of another, or at least having a new kind, different kinds of surfing is like within a repertoire. Right. That did [00:15:00] require an internal change of really a journey of rethinking things. And then it was a journey too. Yeah. I mean, it was a journey for me, intellectually to rethink that Michael Frampton: Do you think that all of your background in philosophy helped you to do that process? And are there, are there specific questions that you'd ask yourself when you're developing a personal philosophy that crossover to developing a surfing philosophy? Aaron James: Uh, yeah, the thing that philosophy makes you good at is, identifying assumptions. That you're making or other people are making and then thinking about, wait a minute. Is that true? , what it would be for to be different. What's the best way of thinking about things such that that's not true. And then what are the merits of it? And then, and oftentimes that's really not obvious to yourself or to others or, , and you have to really think that through. And I do that all day long is professionally like for academic work, and I've done that now for decades. So that's my, that's a big part of my life. , [00:16:00] but I don't often need to do it that much. And sort of, I didn't have to rethink. I mean, there were some adjustments in my earlier relationship to surfing, but it was still within, it was within the same sort of frame form of surfing. And, uh, I, I made adjustment to it and there was lots of frustrations that came out of that, but I, I, the frustrations I always found ways to manage. I, they were never rose to sort of needing to rethink the, the identify the enterprise that was us taking for granted. I never Aaron James: did that before. But it was only once there was sort of a crisis, personal crisis, which is I suddenly just don't can't tell it. Just hate this now, you know, you Aaron James: Okay, wait a minute. And then the crisis was, well, I don't want to just. quit surfing, you know, for the reasons I was saying, so how do I reconcile? And that was not obvious. In the way you're working on an intellectual problem, oftentimes you just pose the question. Oh, well, look, here's another way thing. It's just obvious to you, or you're having, I'm having a discussion with someone else. And especially if you know the terrain and they're, they're making certain assumptions, you, you just, it's just obvious to you that you're, they're making assumptions. Something you just pointed out. And [00:17:00] then that wasn't obvious to me. It took a while to figure out. I had to sort of just stare blankly, and not know. But I guess the way that being a professional philosopher, a skilled trained philosopher helped me too is I thought, well, I'll just wait, you know, I'll wait. I'm just going to think I'm going to try to think about this. I'm going to wait and see, , see if something comes to me to think through this more, you know, wait, try to understand what's, what am I, what's bothering me, what are the alternative ways of thinking about that, gradually letting myself be patient with that process as opposed to just being rash and shutting it down, just quitting and doing something else. But good. Yeah, no, it's helped. It's really big. Good. I went to, I didn't go to Indo this year. I went to South Africa, see a friend and we just surfed the Durban South coast and a bunch of adventurous waves. I was doing adventure surfing there. So it was. I've been there before, but this was like, and I didn't really care about scoring. That gets, it gets really, really good there. And we got good ways, but not anything like what it really, how it gets. But it was, I was like, this is fine. This is adventure surfing. This is [00:18:00] what I want, you know, so that was cool. So it still applies to travel and stuff. Well, it's really freeing because you just don't need to score perfect waves all the time. Yeah, you can just find a cool little cranny and go get it, get it wired. And anyway, so yeah, is this, this sounds up your alley? Yeah. Okay. Yeah. I mean, I was intrigued by the longevity stuff. Cause I do have a bunch of ideas. I'm like, I got into the, I'm into the longevity biohacking stuff. I, I'm thinking of working some of that into a book project as well. Like, so I have some ideas about that. Michael Frampton: Or philosophical, like the Dave Espey Aaron James: sort of world. That world, yeah. I don't take him very seriously, but, um, but other Uh, David Sinclair at Harvard Medical School, who I think was a more philosophical kind of researcher, uh, Peter Atia. . Who's a more hardcore. Wet blanket kind of guy, he's a wet blanket. I mean, I, I like those two, I, I trust both those guys and they have [00:19:00] philosophical differences and that there's a kind of interesting difference in how they think about longevity, you know? And, uh, I think there's things you can say philosophically about how to, how to finesse it, , that kind of connect to surfing as well. Michael Frampton: I read, I just recently read a book. The title escapes me about how the brain gets better as you age. Oh, okay. And another one by a Harvard professor, female psychology professor, I forget her name, talking about the, basically the extreme version of the placebo effect. Aaron James: Oh, okay. Michael Frampton: Fascinating books and backed up, backed up by studies as well. , yeah, one study in particular where she put a bunch of 80 year old men into, into a house where everything in the house was dated 30 years ago. And they were only allowed to talk about things as if it was the present tense. I think I heard Aaron James: this. Yeah. Yeah. Michael Frampton: And their vision improved and their walking improved their health markers improved just simply by that. So I think, yeah, longevity has to do with the state of mind as [00:20:00] well as, as well as. Yes. And so the Aaron James: social contact, the social context and what's taking. That might be like, yeah, I think that's part of why some of the blue zone communities. White people do well because it has to do with people being , like everyone's old and kind of on the same page but still being active and social and there's still a lot of like present oriented things to live for, that are joyful, exciting, lots of opportunities for social connection, doing things together, you know, about walking, games, , sort of the way that surfers get together chatting out in the lineup, it's all about like, the timeframe shrinks. Cause it's not like you're six months, one year, two year, you know, it's like, it's all like. What was it like a low tide? Maybe it'll be better tomorrow, you know, like, you know, it's all really short, like within hours or days, you know, like, you know, like a last one was so good. If it was a really good as well, that might be point of conversation. But otherwise it's like last. Well, you know, it's like, you know, everyone's like, is it, you know, it's like days out or whatever, you know, like. The window shrinks really well. I think I've always thought of that's a big part of why [00:21:00] surfing it draws you into a present a really narrow frame time frame that that's why, um, part of why it's a joyful the social side of it. One of the philosophical thoughts. I mean, like, uh, is Like in the David Sinclair, he's got sort of a theory. About why longevity, why longevity work might work, so the, I really like this idea. The idea that the commonality for what makes exercise so good, and, but also fasting, and also, , why are all those things, why do these things, , work in, in terms of promoting lifespan, healthspan? They work because they're putting stress on the body and on the cells, right? And so they're basically your cells, once stressed, when they're not too comfortable, because you feel like you've got food, or, then they have, they're forced to make do with what they've got, repair themselves. Use the lower quality proteins, like synthesize that stuff, stuff like that. So the cells like, and the, the different, and so you can stimulate that with like the, with, um, best thing is [00:22:00] exercise. Um, you know, fasting is good, but then you can also do with supplements and stuff like, but this is all still pretty supplements, but this is why I like, I mean, sorry, it's pretty speculative in the sense that it's like a nice theory and it's a philosophical, it's a theory and there's a philosophical thought. And which is tied to like the idea that well, maybe if you, maybe if sort of the science progresses quickly enough. then and if you get on if you if you get on the bandwagon doing these sort of speculative biohacks, then , you'll stay ahead of the learning curve. And then maybe you can get not just like an extra six years, but you get extra 1020 years of lifespan or whatever, maybe even potentially could be even longer if you're resetting, resetting the body clock is something like that. So this is all totally pie in the sky, like not even a bad sense is a philosophical idea about like That mortality is not as fixed as we think, right? And that there's a value in trying to shoot for as long. And there's a risk proposition is like the value of living longer [00:23:00] is so great that it's worth taking, uh, even a stuff that is, has a low probability of working. So there's a lot of philosophically there. And so what I like about, , what I like about Peter Atiyah is he's , just, he has a very different philosophical view, right? His idea, he's just , he's Mr. Coldwater. He's look, If you just look at what we already know, then none of these supplements really are gonna make, , we don't know they make any real difference, they might. He says, look, it's exercise and it's certain kinds of exercise. That's the only thing that we know moves the needle on longevity, like by in randomized control trials, good high quality studies, the rest is super speculative. And David Sinclair's message is well I do a little weight lifting like once a week I do a little exercise for a few hours, but mostly I just fast and take pills and that's how to live long and age backwards or , and and his and atia's good point is like look if you just do that stuff, you're not doing the thing that we already know. We already know promotes longevity, which is [00:24:00] exercise. And it's not Danny exercise. It's exercise promotes strength over time to prevent you from falling down while walking down a stair or a curb, because that's a killer. Right. And if you survive, the recovery can be that you got to stop that. So you need strength training. And then after that, you need VO two max. You need to get your capacity to process oxygen. And what does that is sitting on a exercise bike for three hours a week, right? And maybe a little high interval training can help, The low hanging fruit is the stuff we already know works. Aaron James: And that's just exercise doing certain things, exercise regime. If you're not doing that, you're not serious about longevity. There's a way, one way of thinking about the stuff that, that, um, this is going to connect, this is a long way around to a point we were making earlier in connection with surfing. So here's my thought. So there's something in between there, which is like. You don't have to, , do a risk, you take a risk calculation now on the bet of longevity or some extra big, like, boom in lifespan, big extra lifespan, [00:25:00] because, and, but you also don't have to think all you're doing is eking out a few extra years doing arduous things now. There's a way of thinking about this, is is, what's the value of, what's the value of living longer, a long life? Well, it's that it's what it well, it's that you've lived a life. What is it to be a living thing? Think about this. You're an animal. Okay. What is it to be an animal? Well, like at the low, at the lowest, lowest level, what is it to be a living thing is like at the cell level. It's to be a thing that, it's to be a thing that has a, there's a, a boundary between what's inside of it and outside of it, like membrane walls, and it moves through space. And it adapts to its senses and adapts to its surroundings. And, um, it internalized, it takes in resources from that to create energy, to move through space. So it's basically something like a relatively self contained body that senses environment to move through space. So it's movement is the, is like the very essence to be as [00:26:00] an animal, like now it is to be an animal and animals, just a self moving. Creature being self moving just it is what it is to be an animal. And so what it is to live like a bio have biological life or be a biological animal just is to be a self Reproducing a being that whose ongoing existence, my existence in the future only happens because right now I'm doing these things, I'm sensing an environment, responding to it and taking in resources, converting those to energy. That's the only way cells or any animal perpetuates itself. So that's what it is to live. To be alive. Okay. So now if you think, okay, I'm an animal, what is it? I'm a human animal. What is it to do that? Well, what is it to animal? Well, what is it to animal? Well, it's, it's, it's, here's what it is. It's to move. It's one of the most basic things to do to be a [00:27:00] good at animaling to be a good animal is to move move around. It's the sense in moving around an environment that's changing your sensing and responding environment and then you're moving in response to it. That's like what is the fundamentally do well as an animal. That's what all animals naturally do because they're looking for food reproduction, but they're like, you have to rest, but that's a temporary state, right? And most animals don't have chairs. It's no surprise on this view that chairs like are a curse from a lifespan and Healthspan point of view. you a sedentary life is like a disaster. But we and our self conscious so the worst thing to do to be a for being an animal is to sit around a lot, but so human beings who forgotten what it is to be an animal to do well, just decide, well, I just want to be comfortable, so I'm going to sit around a lot. I'm going to eat whatever foods available. That is not fast. I'm not going to have any feelings of scarce. There's not going to be no sort of temporary food [00:28:00] scarcity. , there's going to be, I don't want to have to exercise. I want to be fit and live long, but if I'm going to do that, that's just a means of getting this bigger benefit, which is longer life, like a longer life. Okay. For a long, for living forever, I'll. Okay. Maybe I can actually, most people aren't persuaded because they're not going to actually do the thing. The science we already know will give you a longer lifespan. Most people aren't going to do it. They're not going to get there. They're not going to do figure out their VO2 max, get up to the, get up to the norm and then ride that ride that down and doing like increasingly like with increasing marginal gains in their exercise regime every year. No, almost nobody's going to do that. Only a really hardcore people. Nobody cares about living long enough to exercise that much because they don't really. So the idea is like, is there some other way of thinking about why you would exercise? Um, and the idea is yeah, that's what it is to live well now, today, what it is to do well today as a living human being is to move it's at the end and more to do well [00:29:00] is to do it, to move in the face of challenges. Like, well, this is what we were talking about with surfing. So like, yeah, so it's, it's, it's the skillfully navigated environment. And now you can think of , what surfing is, is just like a beautiful exemplification of this thing that, what it is to be an animal, but it's now being done. For all kinds of reasons, not doing for food or for sex or, you know, for or for shelter or whatever for for survival. It's being done for the joy of it, but it's still not sitting around just to relax, right? It's it's being moving. It's acting was responding, sensing, being attuned to the environment. And so it connects and has maybe, you know, connected to larger things and, you know, all this larger. Meaning as well. So like this is a way of thinking about what's beautiful and surfing connects with not just the bigger stuff like what Freud calls oceanic feeling, but like just what it is to be an animal. What is to be a living being? It's just a move and adapt and skillfully attuned to your environment. And so like the idea on the longevity thing is like, look, so here's why you should exercise now. Here's why you should eat well now. Here's why you should put your body under [00:30:00] stress by fasting. , by exercising, because that's what it is to do. Well, now as a living being, you're not doing that to make, to try to get this extra 10 years or 20 years or 50 years of longevity you're doing is this, what it is to do well now this year to live well now during this week, this month, this decade. That's living well. So, okay, I'll do that. And if I can see the beauty and the joy and find some way of making it fun and like worthwhile for its own sake, cause it's a challenge or, , because it feels good or whatever, then, now that's self sustaining. And then the idea is you could do that and keep doing that. And now if you get lucky and science, your stay ahead of the science and science serves up some discovery such that the things you're doing, gradually adapting to it, let you live an extra five, 10 years, 20 years, then yeah, that's all to the good yet. Why not be open to that? , but it's not like. You're forcing yourself to do a bunch of shit now for this promise of a long, way extra long life. That's not really, so, so I [00:31:00] think that's kind of like an in between view. And then surfing is one way of thinking about how to do it, like, and everybody's got to find their own surfing, but I've had to supplement all this. So it started supplementing with other exercise to, uh, surfing. So, yeah. Michael Frampton: Yeah. . One of the surfing doesn't really put much, unless you're high performance, big waves. It doesn't really put much load , through the system. Yeah. Aaron James: Not enough. Not enough as you age. Yeah. But anyway, . Michael Frampton: It sounds like Atiyah and Sinclair should start surfing basically. Aaron James: Yeah, I imagine , Atiyah, maybe he would, but, , I don't think Sinclair would, he's just kind of, he's a scrawny guy. He's not an athletic type. He's just a nerd guy in the lab. , he wouldn't, he's just like, just does the minimum amount of exercise. I'm hoping you can get by with fasting. I'm not saying you won't live longer or whatever, but maybe you will, but Well, there's two Michael Frampton: ways of looking at longevity too, right? There's , yeah, let's try and live longer or there's no, let's try and get more living out of what we have. Aaron James: Yeah. Let's try to live. And then it just turns out that a lot of what it is to live now [00:32:00] also will make you live longer. And that can be a welcome side effect of living well now. And that means move your ass, get off your ass, move around, like find new challenges, exert yourself. You know, um, just what we were saying and finding new challenges, like not stagnant, not seeking comfort, seeking comfort, which you do more and more as you age, right? You know, cause you'd be like, I'm tired. I don't have energy. What I want to do. I want to sit around. I want to relax. I'm going to, and so basically that's, that's the curse of prosperity. The curse of affluence and prosperity and which you have in spades once you're middle age and have a comfortable life and, you can find any and even develop your maybe Interest in some, so you can spend your time, I can spend all day doing philosophy without exercising or surfing or whatever, what were you going to say? Michael Frampton: Well, I think that those who seek comfort for comfort's sake, it's, it's never enough. They always have to supplement it with a, with a cocktail or some [00:33:00] processed food or something. But if at the end of a day, you've been surfing, you've been to work, you've spent time with friends. Yeah, you can sit down and relax. Aaron James: Yeah, sure. . I'm all for lazing and lounging and stuff, but like in its role, but I even still lazing and lounging can be like lazing around the house. It doesn't have to mean like sitting on the couch, like mindlessly scrolling through your computer. Social media feed, it can be like doing different projects around the house, trying planting something or something you read on social media, trying it out in the house or fixing it, it's like, so, and that doesn't have to be like a getting stuff done kind of thing. It can be you just following your attention, wherever it naturally is drawn in a kind of totally free flowing, relaxed, creative way as Aaron James: well. So it doesn't have to be like a disciplined kind of thing that's Aaron James: really, I think really valuable. That's really important part of creative activity for me anyway. Michael Frampton: I'm gonna ask you a philosophical question. Okay. What is the meaning of life? Oh, Aaron James: I, I funny, it's funny. I have an answer to , this question. So it's [00:34:00] super simple answer. , so here it is. So let me ask you this, let me, let me put it this way first. What is it? What first? So this is being a philosopher. First, let's ask a little bit, slightly different question. Okay. What is it for life to have meaning? So what is it for there to be a fact of the matter about whether life has meaning or not? What kind of fact is that? That it has meaning. Okay, so that doesn't tell you what the meaning of life is. It just tells you what kind of fact that consists of. It will point you the way to know what to look for. So , here's the answer. What is for life to have meaning is just for, it's like for any set of events that occur is for there to be a, a story that's true enough, an app story that's true enough of those events. Okay. Okay, it's the best story of those events. So the meaning, what is for meaning of life, is for there to be a true app story of the events that occurred in life. Okay, that's part, partway there for meaning in life, I think. But then the other thing you need is that, the story has to be a certain kind of story, not just any story. It has to be a story that, , has a function. , it [00:35:00] reconciles you to being alive rather than not, and to your life events having gone a certain way, having gone one way rather than another. So it's a story you can tell that's true and apt about a lot about the events of your life. That, um, that you're feel like you're glad that you lived. That was your life. You're glad to have that left. That's what is for it to be meaningful. It's you can be reconciled to if it's your life is subpar left has lacking in meaning. If there's not enough there, you can't be reconciled to it. Like it can be all I did, like end of life. Well, I did get a hole in one once, but I don't know if there's any, I don't know if there's what story, what does my life amount to? Like someone at a nursing home, they're like, what is my life? Well, I don't know. And , they could go out dying kind of in despair because there's not enough meaning there in their life, you know? But, but what people do when they're finding meaning is then they'll just tell stories. They're , well. My, my kids didn't grow up to be assholes and my, my grandchildren are beautiful people. And that's sort of, that's the story. That's the thing [00:36:00] they did. Like, that's how they're going to tell there's the story of their being a father, grandfather, grandma, you know, kind of thing like that. Or, it doesn't have to be about accomplishments either. It can be a story about a failed efforts, what had serendipitous, consequences that are interesting. That's how I think about my midlife. So I just wrote a memoir about my forties. About my charity misadventures and behind Lagundry Bay, I did a bunch of charity projects there with a local guy and then, , so I told the story of those things as a story of like misadventure and serendipity, but not a complete success. So if you're asking what's the meaning of my life, , well, what's, what's the best story you can tell about the events of your life? And does it let you reconcile yourself to having lived, having lived that life? So that's it. Michael Frampton: The meaning of life is to give life meaning. Aaron James: Yeah. Maybe that's, that's way better. So far as , well, I don't know if it all live, it wouldn't work for all living creatures cause it's not because the other animals and all the cells and stuff aren't storytelling creatures, right? It's the humans that are the [00:37:00] story that are really prone to tell stories. It's part of our sociality. I mean, dogs are incredibly social, but they don't tell stories to each other. I mean, it's part of what's distinctly human, that we can represent the world in various ways and coordinate our different attitudes around, um, through language and these stories. And that's a really, really big part of human social, sociality. So, I think that's That and sort of narrative. Aspect of human that is it's definitely part and parcel of human life. So what is it to be meaningful? It's just like drawing from that way of being like, what is it? You know, it's just you're already in on the stories. I mean, stories also have other functions other than being what constitutes meaning life like. Explaining yourself to someone, making yourself intelligible to others, so you're not dangerous or not too unpredictable or, you know, you could have a relationship with or, , be a friend , or, uh, someone asked, Why did you do that? You just, you tell a story about why you did that. It could just be a rationalization and maybe it's not a true story. You're just making something up on the fly, but it's good enough in the [00:38:00] moment to like, make you feel like you understand what you were doing and that they can understand it. Maybe it's passable. So it flies as a rationalization, but it, so that wouldn't call that meaning. So then bad views about meaning in life are just these are rationalizations, right? There's stories about life, but they're just not, they're not good stories. They're not the best stories. They're just stories that are getting told, told for an existential bomb, you know, like, don't worry, everything will work out in the end or something like that. , what does that even mean? I don't know if there's really any, there's not even any super cosmic story with the, in which everyone, everything actually works out. I mean, like even the big one, like eternal bliss in heaven for, for the elect, you know, like there's a whole crowd of people that are burning in hell. Eternal damnation doesn't work out for those guys. Karma doesn't work out like, you know, for the people that go down the hierarchy, the karmic hierarchy, they wind up, they were human, then they became dogs and then they [00:39:00] became insects and then they just killed and they became worms. That, that's not, that didn't work. Things didn't work out for them. Uh, so these are bad. Those are, so you can criticize these, these are claims about what like is meaning, but they're not, they're not good stories. That should reconcile you to. So anyway, yeah, that's my new take on, um, that aspect of it. But actually I don't think that's all of meaning because of the basic, the basic meaning is still the meaning of surfing is just attunement, attunement to the world. And I think that's a primitive that doesn't have to have a story to it. So the animals do that. Doesn't have a story aspect to it. And we do make stories out of it all the time, , and that's what we're sort of celebrating and we're trying for, Michael Frampton: is the attunement of, a lion have to do with surfing? Aaron James: So the stuff I was saying about what animals do before animals, like sensing, responding, sensing an environment, [00:40:00] moving, moving through it. In light of what it's like, what opportunity, what opportunities for action it affords, affordances is the way people talk about it, and then differentially skillfully responding to it, you know, for, for purposes to adapt, adaptation. So like, this is like basically evolutionary stories about adaptation, about animals developing, being attuned to an ecological niche. So they can survive and reproduce in it. Michael Frampton: You saying that the active surfing is just basically satisfying our animalistic nature? Aaron James: I don't think it's, well, it depends what you mean basic. If you mean something like that's all it is. Then I don't think it's all a lion is doing, or a dog is doing. I think it is what a lion is doing and an animal is doing, but it's also something more. For example, here's something that's definitely attunement. It's here, , and it's something animals don't really have in the way humans have. Music. Making music, listening to music. Me hearing a song, you hearing a song. I'm attuned to the song, you're attuned to the [00:41:00] song, we're attuned to each other because we're both listening to a song at a concert. That's attunement. Okay, that's human, that's like deeply human. level attunement. Like that's part and parcel of every religious tradition, music, part of every culture. Music's really important. It's one of the best things in life. Everyone agrees, but nobody, almost nobody hates, almost everybody loves music and things. It's like the best, right. And then dancing to music is all part of this playing music, like celebrated in the culture. You're like, Oh, you know, so, okay. What makes that meaningful? Well, there's something that's a distinctively human thing, but it's still a kind of attunement. That's like what the animal, the lion, the dog is doing in attuning or a worm is doing in the tuning to their environment. I mean, it's, um, I still think of that as all different forms, ways that. We're attuned, do attuning. And that's like a master value that explains why truth is valuable, why poetic metaphor is valuable. Why skillful practices are metaphor. There are all forms of attunement. This is like a master theory of it. So that doesn't have to be a [00:42:00] story-based thing that's call that basic meaning in life. And then, and there's a distinctive thing that we humans do 'cause we're storytelling creatures, which is we attune to ourselves in each other and the world through telling stories about the events. Um, to make sense of them, right? And , that's, I think that's an essential part of meaning in life is for, for people, for humans, Yeah, this is my grand theory. Michael Frampton: Yeah, no, that's a good point. This is new, by the way, compared to Okay. It makes sense. Yeah. Because I, I mean, it just, it's more of a case for surfing because not, not only does surfing satisfy that animalistic mammal that has to move in a tune with nature, it also satisfies the, the, the dancer and the musician who wants to be at sync with the sound waves of the ocean that are coming Aaron James: in. Absolutely. So it's not a surprise that surfing is all about waves. With and wavelengths and being attuned to waves and [00:43:00] waves like and so is music and so is dancing and it's all attunement. It's pure attunement. I mean, it's not it's not pleasure. This is the thing to think about to it thing to get past is not to make it too subjective because it's not about the pleasure you get from music or pleasure you get from dancing pleasure you get from surfing. The pleasure is as as Aristotle is proper to a virtue. It's proper to a skillful activity. . It's an in an activity. That's a response to an environment. And the response to the environment where you're, you're in sync with. Larger things. You're synced with wavelengths, with waves, you're, you're harmonizing with waves and wave, the wavelengths, that's ocean waves, the way that they refract across on a bottom in a song, it's the, it's the frequencies in a way that they're relating and dancing. It's moving your body and saying, you know, it's, these are all ways of mixing forms of conversation or ways we sync with each other as well. So I think these are social forms of attunement. So I think that's like a master value, but it's a lot of what, like, every religious tradition is after, [00:44:00] what are they trying to do? It's , well, an idea of how you can commune with God or nature or, , I think of that as, even if they don't use the word, if they think it's a They're, they're trying to be attuned to the world, to the larger, to the universe or to larger things. It's grandiose to call it the universe or whatever, if you're just being a surfer, but it's , so pretty big, you're a surfer. It's like, I'm the ocean Pacific ocean. I'm thinking about the storms circling around below New Zealand. That's sending waves up to me. , you know, same super storm down there, sending waves up to the Indian ocean. I just talked to my friend in South Africa. He's going to surf those waves, you know, JB this week or whatever, so you're attuned to large things, so there's the sublimity, that's the sublime of large things in the traditional sense, that sort of God is. Um, associated with, if it has to be super cosmic, like backing out, looking at the whole universe or whatever, then it's I'm not even sure what it's asking, it's too, it's getting too big or whatever. It's getting greedy or whatever. Cause it's the earth isn't big enough, like this, the Milky Way galaxy, which is a [00:45:00] piece of shit speck of dust in the middle of the no way from the universe, you know, but it's like the idea that there has to be something, but then there's a whole. set of galactic attunements that are out there too. So that's all this bigger thing that we have have some kind of cosmic place. It doesn't have to have any further meaning other than there's just this thing, the sublimity of it is, you know, there, um, we are connected So this is what I think of as so surfing is Right on the cusp there of what I like about it this way of thinking about surfing is that it's on the cusp of the low with the animals, even the worm is doing, but it fits with whatever religious tradition or spiritualistic tradition is doing to, you know, like at one level of description, right? Michael Frampton: Yes, not on all levels. Yeah, right. Aaron James: Think that's the true level. The ultimate truth is that all the truth is about attunement and why it's valuable is that's, those are like the ultimate truths. So that's the, that's my own story about meaning, you know, Michael Frampton: Is there anything that surfing can't give? Aaron James: Yeah, [00:46:00] I mean, it doesn't by itself, by itself, the act of surfing doesn't give you all the need for social connection. This is really important for humans. I mean, like, Michael Frampton: well, it depends on where you surf and who you surf. Aaron James: You have to bring friends, you know, you have to, you have to, friends have to be , I don't know, around, alive, not have family commitments so they can post up with you and. Whatever sort of spot you're in. I mean, you know, like, uh, I mean, it wouldn't, there'd be something lost, even if you'd like had Tavarou all to yourself and no one was coming and you just had it for the rest of your life, , like John Rose, I mean, it was the resort, you know, he, he got it, say he got exclusive rights back and he just closed off everyone from being there and just decided to live solo, you know, like surf, surf, cloud, Rick. I mean, he's. You know, I mean, it's not, it doesn't sound insane to a surfer, but like, he's going to miss out on all this, all the life of a surfer. And in fact, he spent, he can be there anytime. And he spends a lot of time in La Jolla where he's from and he's got, you know, relationships and, so like the social side of it and all the relationships and connection to human [00:47:00] society, man's a social animal, like Aristotle says, and so that surfing as such doesn't get you like writing, surfing, good waves. Doesn't get you that by itself, bring your friends. Okay. But can you, how long can your friends stay? But the, you know, Michael Frampton: the car, the car park is part of, and that's a social. Yeah, I agree. Aaron James: Yeah, I agree. So that's a way you can sort of create a little forms of society around surfing and surf breaks. And like that adds a lot of meaning, I think, but that does it, that adds it in its own way. That's, it's sort of premised on surfing and appreciation of surfing and love of surfing, but it's not, that's not the act of surfing. No, Michael Frampton: just, surfing encompasses far more than the act of surfing. It's the culture of surfing. It's the discussions about surfing. Okay. Aaron James: Yeah. Michael Frampton: Yeah. If Aaron James: you want to, if you want to sweep in. Culture, the whole culture of surfing. Yeah. Well, I, but then the, but then the point is that the culture of surfing involves a lot more that's valuable. That's just, that goes beyond the act of surfing itself. It, for as beautiful as it is, it is. I mean, the culture of certain [00:48:00] surfing wouldn't be cool and awesome as it is if that weren't, if surf, the act of surfing weren't this incredible thing, but it's still not the whole thing. The sociality is just a separate thing, you know? I mean mm-hmm . I mean, there's still part of it. You know, you can get like. You can have be a surface solo sort of session in the best ways of your life and get one of the best tubes of your life come out of the barrel and have an ecstatic, you know, sense of bliss. But then be like, I wish somebody would see that. Yeah. I wish I had one friend who I could even tell, like, just talk, tell about it, tell about it, you know, like paddle back out and go, Oh my God, you know, like. The best tube of your life doesn't provide that it doesn't provide the social connection. Michael Frampton: That's right. And I would hazard a guess to think that a lot of people who do surf, the social aspect of surfing might be quite a large part of that because they know, they know if they are out there at 7am that so and so is going to be there to catch up for.[00:49:00] So surfing is very it's a unique thing for everyone. We all get different things out of it. Aaron James: Yeah. And actually there's a longevity connection here, by the way. It's like this fits why the way, like just surfing and sticking with surfing is an ace, as a biohack, basically like for a longevity point of view. But the other reasons we mention health exercise. But the other thing that cor, that fits with the longevity studies, like the Harvard's Longevity study, that was like over 50 years of tracking people. And , the number one thing that correlates with longevity is, incidental interactions with people that are outside their narrow circle of trust. So the second, the quality of intimate relationships was the number two factor. And that was defined as people you were close enough to, to ask, ask for a loan from, then there's this broader set of people that the people who live long all had like, well, There's a correlation anyway between people who live long [00:50:00] and people who had lives rich and people they would just bump, bump, bump into. It could be at a coffee shop, maybe, or it could be like a third place, a library or a park or the beach, but surfers have it in droves. They stick with the regular surf spot. They have all their friends chat about the waves, surf tales, surf stories. They're like in effect doing something that that correlates with longevity , even if they never surf. Just by being part of the, the regular chatting and surf chats and, which was all about the love of waves, you know, um, so that's like, and it's crazy. Cause that's more important, correlation wise than marrying the right person. That's one number two, or not, or having good relationship with your kids. Is all these people down to the beach , the people that live like surf, are in one sense, I mean, I don't know what the causal relationship is by the, the longevity study won't tell you that, but , you could speculate about what it is. We may, maybe it's something to do with what we were saying earlier about the social [00:51:00] socializing in the blue zones, but something about the sense of meaning and connection and social connection and feeling like you belong maybe is. That's what it is, and that's what surfers get all the time if you're just participating in surf culture, and they don't get that from just riding waves, it's it's the social, it's the socializing around riding waves that provides that. But I would Michael Frampton: suspect the people who you trust enough to ask for a loan, you'd get all of that from them in a far safer way. What you're getting from people who you don't know that well is a little, little bit of mystery, a little bit of, Chaos, maybe even it's still human interaction, but there might be an element of anxiety there as well, which is, which is a stressor, which is, as you know, it's like exercise, stress is the body, you know, maybe need that randomness of stress to as well. Aaron James: That could be. Yeah, I don't know. Yeah. I'm thinking it's more like the element of surprise and serendipity and the sense of life is magical. [00:52:00] That, that was what I would think of like, I mean, like you, you bump into somebody and then you don't see him for a while and then you, you had the, you thought of them and then you'd like the next day you saw them down at the beach. Hey, I was just thinking of, like that sense of serendipitous connection. There's, we have a lot of meaning about that. And I think that's like, it does feel magical, but it's also fairly predictable because it's like a relatively set number of people. Showing up to the same kind of place repeatedly you're not. You don't predictably meet any one person, but you will meet you will encounter a lot of the different people pretty reliably over time. But this is , just part. It's part of the way of thinking about the value of communities organized around life. What? A lot of people organize their lives around a common p

Surfing Tips for Beginners: The #1 Technique to Catch More Waves Instantly Join the Wave Catching Academy: https://learn.surfmastery.com/wave-catching-academy-1 [https://learn.surfmastery.com/wave-catching-academy-1] * Jason struggled to catch waves despite three months of experience. * Most surf schools overcomplicate the learning process. * The key to catching waves is matching their speed, not paddling harder. * Three beginner tips: 1. Change perspective: Think of surfing as dancing with the ocean, not fighting it. 2. Wave selection: Choose strong, smooth white water waves with clean water in front. 3. Stop paddling: Let the wave push the board—jump forward instead of paddling. * Focus on these fundamentals before worrying about standing up. You Tube Vid: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QpEKf1cbT4Q [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QpEKf1cbT4Q]  SUMMARY: This episode breaks down how beginner surfers can catch more waves with less effort. The story follows Jason, a struggling surfer who had been taught the wrong way. By focusing on timing and simplifying his approach, he caught more waves in one session than ever before. The key takeaways: shift your mindset to see waves as dance partners, learn proper wave selection, and stop unnecessary paddling. These three simple changes can drastically improve a beginner's ability to surf successfully.  Welcome back or welcome to the Surf Mastery Podcast. Welcome back or welcome to the Surf Mastery Podcast, the podcast that helps passionate lifelong surfers to catch more waves, surf with more speed, style, and grace, and to gain wisdom and confidence in the water. I am your host, Michael Frampton, and today's episode is for the beginner surfer who is struggling to catch waves. And for the long time listener who's tuning in again, we've got a long form interview coming up with Professor of Philosophy Aaron James, all about surfing philosophy later this week. So make sure you're subscribed and keep an eye out for that one. But let's get into today's episode. Let me tell you a quick story about Jason and then I'll go into three actionable tips. So just before COVID hit, I was doing a lot of surf lessons and surf guiding in Southern California and I got a call from Jason who'd just discovered the show and he'd heard an episode where I had said that after four weeks of surfing as a new surfer, you should be catching unbroken waves out the back. And he realized. Just how far behind the curve he was. So he gave me a call, he was 42, and he had been surfing almost daily for 3 months, after having a few group lessons at his local surf school. And uh, he basically felt like giving up a lot of the time, And he said some days he just felt like giving up and that surfing just maybe wasn't something that he was physically capable of. But at the same time he was hooked on surfing and felt extremely drawn to surfing and the ocean. So we booked a session. So I met Jason at a local beginner friendly surf spot. And the first thing I do with a new client is just observe. So I watched Jason flail around for about five minutes on his Seven foot soft top and I knew what was going on So I waved him in. He basically had the complete wrong approach and uh, it's a pretty typical story actually Especially for those who have started later in life, a few lessons at a local surf school that specializes in the tourist experience or teaching school kids and then watching a few YouTube videos and Yeah, you can go pretty wrong. So as he was coming in I went to the car and got the nine foot soft top. He needed that. And as we sat down at the beach I said Jason mate, well done. You look, you're very confident in the water but I've got good news and I've got Best news. The good news is, is that you're doing almost everything wrong. And he said, I said, oh, okay, hesitantly. I said, no, that means there's plenty of room for improvement. And the best news is, is that you got a huge smile on your face, despite all of that. So we had a quick chat about him sticking with a bigger board for a while, and then we, Talked about the difference between catching waves and matching waves. And we just watched the surf for about five minutes and talked about wave selection. It's a big one, actually. Most beginners aren't taught choosing the right whitewater. But it's very important. And then our goal for the last 40 minutes of the session was to catch as many waves as possible with as little effort without paddling. So I went out with him in waist deep water. And gave him plenty of tips and talked him through the process. He said at the end, he caught more waves in that 40 minutes than he'd caught in the last three weeks. So let's break down the main things I taught Jason on that day into three tips that you can use. So tip number one is to match waves, catch waves. So this is a bit of a perspective change. The goal is not to catch waves. Waves are not running away from you. They are coming towards you. Another way to think of it is, you've got to accept the invitation to dance. The language we use, the way we speak about and think about a thing, Things the language we use and the way we speak about and think about things Shapes our perspectives and our beliefs and therefore our actions so next time you go for a surf, think of it as dancing with the ocean, and match the wave, don't catch the wave. Tip number two, is white water needs flat water. So this is about wave selection. Choosing the right waves. This is not often talked about when it comes to beginners catching whitewater, but not all broken whitewater waves are equal. If you're struggling with consistency, Chances are that you're choosing the wrong waves and you're not looking at the details of which waves you should be going for. The key here is to look for the waves with the smoothest water in front of them. The water in between the wave and the beach needs to be nice and smooth and flat. The more boils or rips or little waves in front of the wave or waves going across or The more backwashes there are, the harder it is to catch the main wave that you're looking at. Just like a mountain biker that's looking at the details of where the front wheel is going, looking at the terrain, so too should you be looking at the details of the water in front of you. So remember, white water needs flat water. Tip number three, stop paddling. That's right, if you are new to surfing, you need to stop paddling for waves. All you need to do is go into Waste Deep Water with an 8 or a 9 foot soft top. No other board is appropriate for a beginner. You point the board towards the beach. Have your hands in the center of the board on either rail. Wait until the whitewater hits the tail of your board and then jump onto your board and forward towards the beach at the same time. That's it. That is all you need to do. That is how you match the speed of the wave. Catching waves is all about timing. It is also really important that your surfboard is 90 degrees to the wave. Not 89 degrees. Not 91, 90 degrees perpendicular. to the wave. Don't look at everyone else paddling. Don't let anyone else tell you you need to paddle. If you need a visual on this, there is a link to a YouTube video in the show notes. And at the time when this episode comes out, that video is also at the top of my Instagram. It's just a quick little video of my kids demonstrating it. So to summarize, match waves, don't catch waves. White water needs flat water. And stop paddling. Now, if you are sick of the frustration and the shame that goes along with not catching waves, and you really want to learn how to catch waves, Finally, there is a formula to effortlessly catch waves in weeks, not years, without feeling like a kook, guaranteed. Join the Wave Catching Academy, now. There is a link in the show notes to find out more details and to book. Registrations are open until the end of this week. There are also links to that on the website at surfmastery. com. If you enjoyed this episode please share it with a friend and if you want more surfing tips including free pdfs And blogs, etc. Surfmastery. com is the place to go and of course there is the back catalogue of timeless episodes of the Surf Mastery podcast on Spotify, Apple, etc. Thank you for tuning in. Until next time, keep surfing. The Surf Mastery Podcast: For the passionate surfer—whether you're a weekend warrior, a surf dad, or an older surfer—this podcast is all about better surfing and deeper stoke. With expert surf coaching, surf training, and surfing tips, we’ll help you catch more waves, refine your paddling technique, and perfect your pop up on a surfboard. From surf workouts to handling wipeouts, chasing bigger waves, and mastering surf technique, we’re here to make sure you not only improve but truly enjoy surfing more—so you can get more out of every session and become a wiser surfer. Go from Beginner Surfer to advaned.

https://learn.surfmastery.com/wave-catching-academy-1 [https://learn.surfmastery.com/wave-catching-academy-1] If you've ever felt frustration, shame, or disappointment from missing waves, this episode provides actionable drills and insights to help you surf with more confidence and consistency. 3 key techniques that can help surfers at all levels improve their wave-catching ability: Mastering timing, overcoming the fear of falling, and dealing with the emotional fear of failure. Click HERE [https://learn.surfmastery.com/wave-catching-academy-1] to register or find out more about the Wave Catching Academy  Tim Ferris - How I learned to Surf in 5 days: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1_c_FCTX0gk [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1_c_FCTX0gk] Transcript:  Welcome back, or welcome to the Surf Mastery Podcast. The podcast that helps passionate, lifelong surfers to catch more waves, surf with more speed, style, and grace, and to gain wisdom and confidence in the water. I am your host, Michael Frampton. Today's episode will be another solo episode. That is a follow on from the episode that I released two days ago. And we will expand on catching waves and give you some solid tips to do that. Next week we've got another long form interview coming your way, all about surfing philosophy. So excited to release that one. So make sure you subscribe and stay tuned for that. In the last episode I was talking about a breakthrough I had in catching waves. And for some reason it didn't really translate into catching small, soft waves on a small wave shortboard. Which was something that I really wanted to do. I was lucky enough to live in an area where the waves were mostly pretty good all the time. They were mostly head high. But every now and then a nice small swell would come through. And I remember pulling up to the beach and the waves were small, only about waist high. But they were really nice. And it was no wind. Perfect shape to them. And there was no one else out. And I was so excited. And I grabbed my small wave shortboard and paddled out and spent at least 20 minutes. Just could not catch anything. any of these waves. Just could not figure it out. I just remember being so disappointed and frustrated and by now you've got a handful of people sitting in their cars watching, ready to come out surfing or decide whether to. So you're feeling shamed as well. And one of these surfers decided to come out and it was an older man in his 50s, on a board even smaller than mine, and he just paddled out and was just Catching these waves like any other wave, just gliding into them with ease, going so fast, doing roundhouse cutbacks, just blowing my mind, and meanwhile, I couldn't even catch any of these waves, let alone stand up and surf one, and the contrast from them. From going from being excited to go surfing to just feeling ashamed and disappointed and frustrated just was not only gut wrenching, but it left me confused because it was like, how is this guy doing it? The waves are so soft and slow. How is he surfing a shortboard? And I was so determined to figure it out. I ended up approaching him and He was, turns out he was a former pro, really friendly, and ended up getting some coaching from him, and it changed, had another breakthrough on small waves, because in surfing we often think it's quite simple, the wave comes towards the beach, and you paddle for it in the right part of the wave, and you glide in, and that's true for most waves, but when you start wanting to surf smaller waves. On a shortboard, you've really got to get an eye in for the details and what I noticed he was doing, which was pointed out, was he was waiting a bit longer, and really letting the white water hit him, which gave him enough momentum to, to get going on the wave, and if you want to surf a broad variety of Wave shapes and sizes, you need to be far more versatile and adaptable than you think. And, sometimes you really need to be able to let the whitewater hit you and come from behind the section with speed to get going on small waves. And once you learn that skill, it actually expands the take off zone for you. If you mis time a wave and the wave hits you, you can actually still come around the section. So learning to catch these smaller, softer waves. Helped me in all types of waves, and the drill that this surf coach got me to do is a really simple one, and this is it, tip number one, timing. I'll firstly describe this tip in a beginner friendly version, and then I'll Elaborate into how an intermediate or even advanced surfer can utilize it. So the key here is to stop paddling for waves. That's right. If you're a beginner, first of all you need to be on the right surfboard. Needs to be an 8 or a 9 foot soft top, depending on your height and weight. And no other surfboard is appropriate for a beginner. Stay away from places like First Point, Malibu. Go to a beach where you see surf schools take their groups of 50 tourists. That's the beach you want to practice this drill. And what you want to do is you want to stand in waist deep water, with your board facing towards the beach, hands in the middle of the board, holding each rail, and then wait. Wait until the white water is just about to hit the tail of your board, and then you jump. onto your board and forward to match the speed of the wave at the same time. And you land in your paddling position and that jump forward has allowed you to match the speed of the wave. And that's it, no paddling necessary. The focus here is getting the timing of the jump don't even worry about standing up at this stage for beginners. You're just looking to catch the wave with good timing without paddling. Play around with it. Wait until the wave has passed the tail of your board and is about to hit you and then try it. Just play around with the timing. Get really comfortable with catching waves in waist high water without paddling. For the intermediate and advanced surfers that are struggling to catch small waves, the drill is exactly the same. It's just the type of surfboard you'll be using. So for an intermediate surfer, you might be on a fiberglass mid length or your favorite sort of mid size soft top, and for your advanced surfer, just get on your small wave shortboard. But the drill is the same. No paddling, get the timing right. So how does this apply to catching unbroken waves for the intermediate and advanced surfer? When you're sitting on your surfboard and a small wave is approaching, you want to time two to four sprint paddles just as the wave is about to hit you. And if you've practiced the drill, as I mentioned, you'll be used to popping up in the whitewater and maintaining speed from that. Push because actually popping up and riding the wave in the turbulence of that white water is a lot harder than you think. And it's a skill that you might not have practiced in a while. You would have practiced it a lot when you were learning, but it's good to go back. So not only are you practicing Catching the wave in the whitewater, but you're also going to practice popping up and surfing those beginner waves. One of the most common mistakes at all levels is rushing. I see too many surfers just paddling frantically rather than being patient and timing some good sprint paddles. Watch really experienced surfers when they're in the right spot. They don't rush. They wait for the wave to engulf the back of the board, and then they execute like a breaststroke kick with their legs, combined with a couple of sprint paddles, and the board's buoyancy kind of pops them forward like a cork in water, and they just glide into the wave effortlessly. Sometimes a lot of the paddling for the wave Surfers do, is actually to get in the right position to be able to do that. And by no means am I saying don't paddle hard for waves. In fact, you need to be a strong paddler that can paddle hard for waves. The first step is to master the timing in broken whitewater waves. Tip number two would be overcoming the fear of getting hurt or held underwater. Now, this fear will never go away completely, it's natural, you should be cautious about getting hurt or drowning. But you can prepare for it so that it's not so overwhelming. The drill here is just to simply play in the white water. Just like kids at the beach. They love playing in the shore break, getting hit. tumbled around. They love feeling the power of the ocean. You should get comfortable with getting tumbled in the shore break, getting held under and having sand go everywhere. And if this makes you feel uncomfortable, you have to spend time doing this. I remember Tim Ferriss did a TV series called the Tim Ferriss experiment, where he tried to learn a bunch of skills as fast as possible by working with experts intensively for five days. He did golf, drumming, dancing, and surfing was one of them. And he. Got Laird Hamilton, and the first thing that Laird got him to do was to play in the whitewater. He had to get rid of that fear of being held under and rolled around. Because if you're afraid of what happens when you fall off or make a mistake, you simply can't be present. I strongly recommend you go and watch that episode. It's free on YouTube now. I'll put a link to that episode in the show notes. And I used to teach. Adult skateboarding as well, and the first thing that we'd learn is to fall safely on the grass. And then we'd progress to learning how to fall and slide safely with all the gear on. And only then can they be present enough to learn how to skate. Kids don't have this fear anywhere near as much because they're made of rubber and naivety, but you simply cannot learn anything without falling. Prepare and minimize the fear of falling. Choose a safe sandy swimming beach where there's lifeguards and stuff and practice this. You get a bodyboard as well, play around. Wear a wetsuit, helps with flotation. A tip that goes along with this one is you need to be a strong swimmer. You should be able to swim 500 meters non stop and 25 meters underwater. So if you can't do those two things, I highly recommend just going and getting some swimming lessons. Tip number three is overcoming the fear of failing. Now we just covered the physical fear of falling, but now we're talking about the emotional fear of failing. And the fear of failure is, it's tied to shame. The fear of looking bad in front of others. What's the solution? Practice tip one and two in a place where other surfers aren't. As I mentioned in tip one, stay out of the way. If you're a beginner, there's no need to go to A surf break where good surfers are. You can go to any swimming beach out of the way and find your own spot away from people and practice these drills. Find out where the local surf school takes their groups and does lessons and stay around there somewhere. There's, there are always nice sandy, flat, easy waves to practice this sort of stuff in. The fear of shame, it's never going to go away completely. The goal here is to get to a point where you feel confident and competent enough to surf with other surfers, despite the shame, and you should be able to focus on successfully catching the wave, not on how you look. Because even when you go to a place where good surfers aren't, the fear of failure is still going to come up. There's a certain amount of that you're just going to have to push through until your skills improve. The most important thing is just stay safe, stay out of the way, and if the desire to get better is stronger than your fear of failure, you'll put the hours in. Because surfing is hard, it takes time, there's no way around that. But these three tips will help you to get there fastest. So to summarize, you're going to practice the timing by catching white water waves in waist high water without paddling. You're going to play around in the shore break and get used to what happens when you fall. As well as making sure that you're a strong swimmer and you're comfortable being underwater. And you're going to practice these drills away from surf breaks where other surfers are watching and judging. And you're going to make sure that you're doing it at the right spot. Now if you're truly serious about learning the art of catching waves and overcoming the shame, the frustration and the disappointment of missing waves and watching others. Then I've got good news for you. Registrations are open for the Wave Catching Academy which starts up very soon. There is no need for you to spend the years that I spent guessing, overthinking, and struggling to figure these things out on your own. And that's why I created the Wave Catching Academy so you can fast track your progress. You'll go from being hesitant and ignored in the lineup to being someone that catches waves with confidence and competence. No more getting dropped in on, no more getting snaked. You'll understand positioning and how to read waves, and of course, how to catch any wave that you like. Registrations are open until the 7th of March, but numbers are limited as well, so Get in quick. The first 10 people who join will also get a free one on one session with me. So if you're serious about transforming your surfing and finally feeling like a surfer instead of a kook, it starts with learning how to catch waves. So click the link in the description or the show notes, or go to surfmastery. com and join in the Wave Catching Academy. Hope to see you in there, and until next week, keep surfing. For the passionate surfer—whether you're a weekend warrior, a surf dad, or an older surfer—this podcast is all about better surfing and deeper stoke. With expert surf coaching, surf training, and surfing tips, we’ll help you catch more waves, refine your paddling technique, and perfect your pop up on a surfboard. From surf workouts to handling wipeouts, chasing bigger waves, and mastering surf technique, we’re here to make sure you not only improve but truly enjoy surfing more—so you can get more out of every session and become a wiser surfer. Go from Beginner Surfer to advaned.