344: Stop Being a Crumbudgeon and Start Playing at Work with Kelsey Kates

344: Stop Being a Crumbudgeon and Start Playing at Work with Kelsey Kates

It was such a treat to sit down with my friend Kelsey Kates and really geek out over a topic that we often leave at the playground: play. I've felt that slow boil in my own career—trading my personality for steel-toed boots and a suit just to fit the corporate mold until I didn't even recognize myself in the mirror. Kelsey is here to remind us that we don't have to lose our joy to be high-performers. She brings this incredible blend of Google leadership experience and MIT neuroscience to show us that playfulness isn't about being childish; it's about a state of being that lowers our defenses and actually makes us better at our jobs. Key Themes from the Conversation * The Difference Between Childish and Childlike: Kelsey clarifies that professional playfulness isn't about lacking impulse control, but about maintaining the neuro-flexibility to pivot and experiment in low-stakes environments. "We're not asking you to be childish... but inviting you to be childlike. That ability to shift and modify behaviors in that moment—that neuro-flexibility actually allows me to extrapolate that into other contexts." * Play as a Signal for Psychological Safety: Incorporating humor or lightheartedness as a leader signals to your team that the environment is safe, reducing the biological stress response that serious corporate communication often triggers. "If I can signal with playfulness... I am reducing the power dynamic to say we are equals, we are in this together. I'm building rapport and wanting others to feel seen." * The Neuroscience of Engagement: Play triggers dopamine, which isn't just a feel-good chemical; it actually aids in memory retention, focus, and deeper engagement with the subject matter. "In your memory, play is engendering deeper levels of focus and engagement and retention. There is neurochemistry that is happening." * Authenticity and Leadership Credibility: Contrary to the fear that playing makes a leader look weak, research shows that leaders who embrace playfulness are actually viewed as more authentic and trustworthy by their teams. "When a leader shows up playfully, they are seen as more authentic, more trustworthy, because they are choosing to do it in a place where it's not necessarily looked at as a positive performance trait." Actionable Takeaway Start your meetings with a Purposeful Primer. Before diving into the agenda, spend the first three minutes on a low-stakes, high-connection prompt—like sharing a song from a personal pump-up playlist or discussing something you tend to over-analyze. Getting everyone's voice in the room within the first three minutes significantly increases their likelihood of staying engaged and collaborative for the rest of the meeting. Check out the extra resources Kelsey kindly shared to add play to your leadership tool kit. * Play: How it Shapes the Brain, Opens the Imagination, and Invigorates the Soul by Stuart Brown: This is essentially the "Play Bible." It's a beautiful look at why we are biologically wired to play at every age. * Brown, S. L., & Vaughan, C. C. (2009). Play: How it shapes the brain, opens the imagination, and invigorates the soul. Avery. * Humor, Seriously by Jennifer Aaker and Naomi Bagdonas: One of my absolute favourites. * Aaker, J., & Bagdonas, N. (2021). Humor, seriously: Why humour is a secret weapon in business and life (and how anyone can harness it. Trust us). Currency. * Huberman Lab: The Science & Power of Play [https://www.hubermanlab.com/]: I know you already listened to this, so more for the show notes. * Huberman, A. (Host). (2022, February 14). Using play to rewire & improve your brain [Audio podcast episode]. In the Huberman Lab. Scicomm Media. * Understanding the social benefits for playful employees in the workplace - building trust and authenticity Li Guo [https://www.nature.com/articles/s41598-025-04967-5#auth-Li-Guo-Aff1], Wenqi Liu [https://www.nature.com/articles/s41598-025-04967-5#auth-Wenqi-Liu-Aff1], René T. Proyer [https://www.nature.com/articles/s41598-025-04967-5#auth-Ren__T_-Proyer-Aff2], Suosuo Jia [https://www.nature.com/articles/s41598-025-04967-5#auth-Suosuo-Jia-Aff3] & Ying Wang [https://www.nature.com/articles/s41598-025-04967-5#auth-Ying-Wang-Aff1] September 2025.

343: Discovering Joy and Autonomy in the C-Suite with Sabrina Calouri

Welcome back, everyone! I am just so thrilled to share my conversation with Sabrina Caluori, the CMO at Chief. You know, I talk a lot about capacity erosion—that feeling where your mental load is so heavy you're basically walking through quicksand while trying to run a marathon. Sabrina gets it. She's been in those high-stakes rooms at Paramount, hitting a wall of burnout so thick she didn't even have the words to name it yet. But what I love about her perspective is how she's flipped the script, moving from stepping off the ladder to building a community that reminds us we aren't alone in the isolation of leadership. We laughed about my grandma sleep schedule, but honestly, if we don't start treating our rest and autonomy as non-negotiable business assets, we're just designing our own exhaustion. Key Themes from the Conversation * The Evolution of Ambition and Autonomy. The narrative that women are losing ambition is simply untrue; rather, their needs have shifted toward seeking more control over their impact and schedules. "Women are still as ambitious as ever, but the kind of tenure of that ambition had evolved... what's different is its autonomy, and influence, and flexibility." Rest as a Strategic Business Tool. Prioritizing restorative time and white space is not a luxury but a biological and professional necessity for high-level problem solving. "We forget, as leaders, that actually that rest, that restorative time... is when, a lot of times, the best bigger, more kind of white space-type ideas come back." Solving Isolation Through Peer Community. Senior leadership can be incredibly isolating, and having a peer network outside of one's own organizational chart is vital for sustained success. "Chief exists to solve isolation at the top... the ability to bring peers together to have the conversations that were so hard to have inside our org charts." Intentionality in the Age of AI. While technology is moving rapidly, women leaders are focusing on intentional leadership by prioritizing thoughtful deployment over mere speed. "We're putting intentional leadership first, over the speed of deployment... 80% of women are involved in leading AI efforts." Actionable Takeaways Audit your calendar for Thinking Time. Proactively block out small windows of time every single day to step away from your screen, reset your nervous system, and allow for the strategic white space your brain needs to lead effectively. Know the real story. Chief's data confirms women can find joy and autonomy at work. From the Chief/Harris Poll study [https://chief.com/articles/calling-bs-on-the-myth-of-womens-fading-ambition] on women's ambition: * Women's definition of ambition may be evolving, but their belief in the power of community remains constant. The study found that 93% of women believe they have the collective power to build new "centers of influence." * 94% say being around other ambitious women fuels their own ambition. * Two-thirds believe their problem solving accelerates when brainstorming with other women leaders on business challenges. From the most recent Chief/Harris Poll study [https://chief.com/women-leaders-agentic-ai-study-2026] on women and AI: * 86% of women leaders say their peer network is a competitive advantage in the AI era. * 83% learn more from peer conversations about AI than from any formal training. * 84% say they have made smarter AI-related decisions because of insights from their community

342: Finding Your Natural Allyship Rhythm with Dr. Meg Warren

I've always said that allyship isn't a proclamation you make—it's an aspiration that lives in the eye of the beholder. For a long time, we've been told that to be a real ally, you have to be this fearless, extroverted warrior constantly jumping into the line of fire. Let's be real: most of us are just trying to hit our step goals and remember to eat less salt without feeling like we're failing at life! In this episode, the brilliant Dr. Meg Warren joins me to flip the script. We're moving away from that check the box mentality and diving into the baby pool of self-awareness to see how your unique personality—yes, even if you're introverted or conflict-avoidant—is actually your greatest superpower for change. Key Themes from the Conversation The Personality Myth in Allyship. Many people believe they aren't built for allyship because they don't fit a specific, extroverted, or courageous mold. However, research indicates that about 91% of the population has a personality profile that is workable and well-positioned for allyship. "I regularly hear from people saying to me that... I don't have the personality for it. We see this in our research... people say, for instance, I'm too introverted, I'm too agreeable, I'm too conflict-avoidant, I'm too risk-averse to really be an ally. But that's not true. You can still be an ally in your own way." Diverse Definitions of Support. There is a significant disconnect between what potential allies think is effective, such as public confrontation, and what marginalized groups actually find most useful. While many men view calling out bias as the primary method of allyship, women often find other strategies more beneficial, and confrontation may not even be on their list of useful actions. "Most men across the board said that the most important way to be an ally is to confront bias by calling out bias. And then when we asked women, they gave a ton of other strategies of what's actually useful for them, and confrontation and calling out did not even feature." Sustainability Through Natural Traits. Allyship becomes sustainable when it feels like an organic extension of one's existing character strengths and personality rather than a forced or difficult change. Using strengths that already come naturally allows individuals to be more successful and handle constructive feedback more effectively. "Allies can start by asking how can I do this in a way that just naturally flows for me? And I'm not looking at big changes right now, I'm making small changes, just a little tweak here and there, to start becoming more active." Starting Small to Scale Big. While systemic change is the ultimate goal, successful allyship often begins at the micro-level within an individual's sphere of influence. Scaling these behaviors up to systemic levels is more manageable once a critical mass of individuals is practicing allyship in their daily interactions. "Start with doing allyship at a micro level, and then scaling that up to systemic levels, especially when starting at the systems, it almost feels like a non-starter." Actionable Takeaway Identify your top character strengths using a tool like the Values and Action (VIA) assessment, and then choose one allyship micro-behavior—such as checking in with a colleague or offering support—that feels like a natural extension of those existing strengths. Assess your Personality: https://bigfive-test.com/ [https://bigfive-test.com/] Assess your Character Strengths: https://www.viacharacter.org/ [https://www.viacharacter.org/] Research paper on how to match personality and character strengths to allyship strategies: https://osf.io/preprints/psyarxiv/vt7bf_v3 [https://osf.io/preprints/psyarxiv/vt7bf_v3] Additional free research-based resources: www.megwarren.com [http://www.megwarren.com/] Contact Meg: https://www.linkedin.com/in/warrenmeg/ [https://www.linkedin.com/in/warrenmeg/]

341: Real Talk on Self Leadership and Shaking Off the Bullshit with Aiko Bethea

I am just vibrating with excitement after my chat with Aiko Bethea ! If you've followed her work as I have, you know she's basically the gold standard for building cultures that actually mean something . We got into the nitty-gritty of her new book, Anchored, Aligned, and Accountable, and let me tell you, it is the blueprint we need right now . I even got a little unplanned coaching session myself—turns out, even after years in the DEI space, I'm still a recovery fixer trying to work my way out of every hard feeling . Aiko gently called me out on that toxic productivity narrative we've all been fed since we were kids . It's time to stop responding to everyone else's agenda and start leading from the inside out . Key Themes from the Conversation * The Power of Personal Values as an Anchor Aiko emphasizes that identifying two or three core values acts as a physical tether, preventing leaders from being swept away by external pressures or "ick" feelings they can't quite name . * Finding out what was most important to them, which I name in the book as identifying their values, being anchored into their values... helped them to close that gap, and to make key changes in how they were showing up. * Identifying and Challenging Bullshit Narratives The framework encourages leaders to interrogate "bullshit"—the unexamined, default beliefs inherited from family or workplace cultures that often prioritize productivity or defensiveness over authenticity . I want people to think, says who? And how would I want it to be, or need it to be, to be anchored? * Intrinsic Motivation vs. External Approval True inclusive leadership isn't about being a "good guy" or seeking external glorification; it is about self-awareness and aligning one's actions with one's aspirational self . It's going to be about, wow, how does this leave me sitting, or feeling, and... if I... my aspirational self was this, what would I do differently? * The Necessity of Meaningful, Public Accountability When a leader makes a mistake, a private "I'll do better" isn't enough to shift a culture; it requires a specific, humble apology that acknowledges the impact on the team . When he did a very specific apology that was public about what he did... whoa, shifts everything, because now people see, oh man, he's showing up differently... he realized this behavior isn't okay. Actionable Takeaway Start your own self-interrogation by identifying one "should" in your professional life. Ask yourself, says who? If that belief doesn't align with your core values, give yourself the grace to drop the behavior and replace it with an action that feels anchored . Follow Aiko and get her book at https://www.rarecoaching.net/team/aiko-bethea/

340: How to Share Your Personal Life Without Hurting Your Career with Catherine Kleshinski

I am so excited to share this conversation with my wonderful colleague and friend, Dr. Catherine Kleshinski from Indiana University. We've all been there on a random Monday morning when someone asks, "How was your weekend?" and we're dying to share a picture of our new puppy or the chaos of a first birthday party. I used to think these me-search moments were just simple trust builders—and they are! Catherine's latest research in the Journal of Applied Psychology reveals that there is a lot of nuance behind that water cooler talk. It turns out that while sharing the non-work vibes makes us all seem warmer, the way it impacts our reputation actually depends on where we sit in the hierarchy. So, how can we build authentic connections without accidentally triggering the workplace gossip mill? The Warmth Benefit vs. The Distraction Penalty: Everyone who shares positive personal news is perceived as warmer and more caring, but junior or lower-status employees may simultaneously be viewed as less focused on their professional responsibilities. "Everyone gets the warmth benefit, but the work ethic connotation depends on power dynamics." The Gossip Ripple Effect: Reputation isn't just a static feeling; it drives how people talk about you when you aren't in the room, leading to either flattering or unflattering workplace gossip. "If you have this reputation for being a relationship builder, people will engage in positive gossip about you, but if you are somebody with a reputation for being distracted, they'll gossip negatively about you." The Invisible Line of Disclosure: There is a delicate balance between sharing enough to build trust and oversharing details like health issues or intense personal data that can make others uncomfortable. Creating Safe Spaces for Connection: Leaders should focus on creating icebreakers that allow for choose-your-own-adventure levels of vulnerability so that no one feels pressured to share more than they are comfortable with. Actionable Takeaway Audit your icebreakers. If you are a manager, be mindful that vulnerable sharing can unintentionally disadvantage your junior team members. Instead of asking personal questions, try a reciprocity ring where teammates request help with a specific task, or use "Tell Me Something Good" to allow people the choice between sharing a professional win or a personal one.