The Ezra Klein Show

I honestly don’t know how I should be educating my kids. A.I. has raised a lot of questions for schools. Teachers have had to adapt to the most ingenious cheating technology ever devised. But for me, the deeper question is: What should schools be teaching at all? A.I. is going to make the future look very different. How do you prepare kids for a world you can’t predict? And if we can offload more and more tasks to generative A.I., what’s left for the human mind to do? Rebecca Winthrop is the director of the Center for Universal Education at the Brookings Institution. She is also an author, with Jenny Anderson, of “The Disengaged Teen: Helping Kids Learn Better, Feel Better, and Live Better [https://www.penguinrandomhouse.com/books/726142/the-disengaged-teen-by-jenny-anderson-and-rebecca-winthrop/].” We discuss how A.I. is transforming what it means to work and be educated, and how our use of A.I. could revive — or undermine — American schools. Mentioned: Brookings Global Task Force on AI Education [https://www.brookings.edu/projects/brookings-global-task-force-on-ai-in-education/] Winthrop’s World of Education [https://www.linkedin.com/in/rebecca-winthrop-b36b0617/?miniProfileUrn=urn%3Ali%3Afsd_profile%3AACoAAAOLotoBLFN1dGUN9lFYqz92mJhKpG4iluA] Book Recommendations: Democracy and Education [https://cup.columbia.edu/book/democracy-and-education/9780231558273/] by John Dewey Unwired [https://www.cambridge.org/core/books/unwired/9000C0CC45279A1CD6F26E932A1C0FA3] by Gaia Bernstein Blueprint for Revolution [https://www.penguinrandomhouse.com/books/228578/blueprint-for-revolution-by-srdja-popovic/] by Srdja Popovic Thoughts? Guest suggestions? Email us at ezrakleinshow@nytimes.com. You can find the transcript and more episodes of “The Ezra Klein Show” at nytimes.com/ezra-klein-podcast [https://www.nytimes.com/column/ezra-klein-podcast]. Book recommendations from all our guests are listed at https://www.nytimes.com/article/ezra-klein-show-book-recs.html [https://www.nytimes.com/article/ezra-klein-show-book-recs.html] This episode of “The Ezra Klein Show” was produced by Annie Galvin. Fact-checking by Michelle Harris. Our senior engineer is Jeff Geld, with additional mixing by Aman Sahota. Our executive producer is Claire Gordon. The show’s production team also includes Marie Cascione, Rollin Hu, Elias Isquith, Marina King, Jan Kobal, Kristin Lin and Jack McCordick. Original music by Pat McCusker. Audience strategy by Kristina Samulewski and Shannon Busta. The director of New York Times Opinion Audio is Annie-Rose Strasser. Special thanks to Switch and Board Podcast Studio. Unlock full access to New York Times podcasts and explore everything from politics to pop culture. Subscribe today at nytimes.com/podcasts [http://nytimes.com/podcasts] or on Apple Podcasts and Spotify.

A good rule of thumb is that whatever Margaret Atwood is worried about now, the rest of us will likely be worried about a decade from now. The rise of authoritarianism. A backlash against women’s social progress. Climate change leading to social unrest. Advertising permeating more and more of our lives. We originally released this episode back in March 2022. But just like Atwood’s work, it somehow only got more relevant with time.  Atwood is the author of at least 17 novels, including the classic “The Handmaid’s Tale [https://www.penguinrandomhouseretail.com/book/?isbn=9780385490818],” as well as 20 books of poetry and nine collections of short fiction. When we spoke, she’d just published an essay collection, “Burning Questions [https://www.penguinrandomhouse.com/books/673327/burning-questions-by-margaret-atwood/].” And she has a new book coming out this fall, “Book of Lives: A Memoir of Sorts [https://www.penguinrandomhouse.com/books/673328/book-of-lives-by-margaret-atwood/].” Mentioned: Art & Energy [https://www.lord.ca/resources/books/art-energy] by Barry Lord Book recommendations: War [https://www.penguinrandomhouse.com/books/609692/war-how-conflict-shaped-us-by-margaret-macmillan/] by Margaret MacMillan Biased [https://www.penguinrandomhouse.com/books/557462/biased-by-jennifer-l-eberhardt-phd/] by Jennifer L. Eberhardt Secrets of the Sprakkar [https://www.amazon.com/Secrets-Sprakkar-Icelands-Extraordinary-Changing/dp/1728242169] by Eliza Reid Charlotte’s Web [https://www.harpercollins.com/products/charlottes-web-e-b-whitekate-dicamillo?variant=32153972277282] by E. B. White Lord of the Rings [https://www.harpercollins.com/products/the-lord-of-the-rings-illustrated-edition-jrr-tolkien?variant=39702873309218] by J. R. R. Tolkien Thoughts? Guest suggestions? Email us at ezrakleinshow@nytimes.com. You can find the transcript and more episodes of “The Ezra Klein Show” at nytimes.com/ezra-klein-podcast [https://www.nytimes.com/column/ezra-klein-podcast]. Book recommendations from all our guests are listed at https://www.nytimes.com/article/ezra-klein-show-book-recs.html [https://www.nytimes.com/article/ezra-klein-show-book-recs.html] This episode of “The Ezra Klein Show” was produced by Annie Galvin, Jeff Geld and Rogé Karma. Fact-checking by Michelle Harris, Kate Sinclair and Mary Marge Locker. Special thanks to Kristina Samulewski, Coral Ann Howells and Brooks Bouson. Our executive producer is Claire Gordon. The show’s production team also includes Marie Cascione, Rollin Hu, Elias Isquith, Marina King, Jan Kobal, Kristin Lin, Jack McCordick and Aman Sahota. Original music by Pat McCusker. Audience strategy by Kristina Samulewski and Shannon Busta. The director of New York Times Opinion Audio is Annie-Rose Strasser. Unlock full access to New York Times podcasts and explore everything from politics to pop culture. Subscribe today at nytimes.com/podcasts [http://nytimes.com/podcasts] or on Apple Podcasts and Spotify.

Representative Marie Gluesenkamp Perez is one of just 13 Democrats to represent a district that Donald Trump won. Her distinctive economic message, and a willingness to buck her own party, helped her win re-election. But now the reality of the Trump era is coming home. Gluesenkamp Perez faced raucous crowds at town halls in Washington State recently, with some of her more liberal constituents furious that she isn’t opposing the administration more forcefully. At the same time, the White House has started making economic arguments that sound very similar to ones that she’s made – that we should consume less, produce more and import less stuff from abroad. So I wanted to talk to her about how she’s navigating this moment. What does she think of Trump’s economic agenda? What reactions is she seeing across her district? How does a Democrat now represent both terrified liberals and loyal Trump voters? This episode contains strong language. Book Recommendations: The Wheelwright’s Shop [https://angelicopress.com/products/the-wheelwright-s-shop?srsltid=AfmBOoqSzONmC0k9e7vONpCywwF9AbLn49UivaEXz5aUIvG3aIP3NbMl] by George Sturt Experiences in Visual Thinking [https://www.designersandbooks.com/book/experiences-visual-thinking] by Robert H. McKim Children’s poetry anthologies [https://www.harpercollins.com/blogs/harperkids/poems-for-kids-jack-prelutsky] from Jack Prelutsky Thoughts? Guest suggestions? Email us at ezrakleinshow@nytimes.com. You can find the transcript and more episodes of “The Ezra Klein Show” at nytimes.com/ezra-klein-podcast [https://www.nytimes.com/column/ezra-klein-podcast]. Book recommendations from all our guests are listed at https://www.nytimes.com/article/ezra-klein-show-book-recs.html [https://www.nytimes.com/article/ezra-klein-show-book-recs.html] This episode of “The Ezra Klein Show” was produced by Jack McCordick. Fact-checking by Michelle Harris, with Kate Sinclair. Our senior engineer is Jeff Geld, with additional mixing by Aman Sahota. Our executive producer is Claire Gordon. The show’s production team also includes Marie Cascione, Annie Galvin, Rollin Hu, Elias Isquith, Marina King, Jan Kobal and Kristin Lin. Original music by Pat McCusker. Audience strategy by Kristina Samulewski and Shannon Busta. The director of New York Times Opinion Audio is Annie-Rose Strasser. Special thanks to Switch and Board Podcast Studio. Unlock full access to New York Times podcasts and explore everything from politics to pop culture. Subscribe today at nytimes.com/podcasts [http://nytimes.com/podcasts] or on Apple Podcasts and Spotify.

The U.S. dollar is the lingua franca of the global financial system. The fact that so much of the world relies on our currency has long been understood as our exorbitant privilege — the reason we have so much leverage in the global economy and are able to borrow at lower interest rates. But the Trump administration has a much more complicated relationship with the dollar. It has come to see dollar dominance as a burden we bear on behalf of the rest of the world. But in its attempts to move away from dollar dominance, is the Trump administration on the verge of creating a financial crisis? Kenneth Rogoff is a former chief economist at the International Monetary Fund and a professor of economics at Harvard University. He has a book coming out called “Our Dollar, Your Problem [https://yalebooks.yale.edu/book/9780300275315/our-dollar-your-problem/].” In this conversation he walks through the history of dollar dominance, why it’s been waning in recent years and what ripple effects the Trump administration’s policies might have. This episode contains strong language. Book Recommendations: Muppets in Moscow [https://rowman.com/ISBN/9781538161289/Muppets-in-Moscow-The-Unexpected-Crazy-True-Story-of-Making-Sesame-Street-in-Russia] by Natasha Lance Rogoff The Queen’s Gambit [https://www.google.com/books/edition/The_Queen_s_Gambit/rXdVPwAACAAJ?hl=en] by Walter Tevis Benjamin Franklin [https://www.simonandschuster.com/books/Benjamin-Franklin/Walter-Isaacson/9780743258074] by Walter Isaacson Thoughts? Guest suggestions? Email us at ezrakleinshow@nytimes.com. You can find the transcript and more episodes of “The Ezra Klein Show” at nytimes.com/ezra-klein-podcast. Book recommendations from all our guests are listed at https://www.nytimes.com/article/ezra-klein-show-book-recs.html This episode of “The Ezra Klein Show” was produced by Rollin Hu. Fact-checking by Michelle Harris, with Kate Sinclair and Mary Marge Locker. Our senior engineer is Jeff Geld, with additional mixing by Aman Sahota. Our executive producer is Claire Gordon. The show’s production team also includes Marie Cascione, Annie Galvin, Elias Isquith, Marina King, Jan Kobal, Kristin Lin and Jack McCordick. Original music by Pat McCusker. Audience strategy by Kristina Samulewski and Shannon Busta. The director of New York Times Opinion Audio is Annie-Rose Strasser. Unlock full access to New York Times podcasts and explore everything from politics to pop culture. Subscribe today at nytimes.com/podcasts [http://nytimes.com/podcasts] or on Apple Podcasts and Spotify.

“Abundance [https://www.simonandschuster.com/books/Abundance/Ezra-Klein/9781668023488],” the book I co-wrote with Derek Thompson, hit bookstore shelves a little over a month ago, and the response has been beyond anything I could have imagined. And it’s generated a lot of interesting critiques, too, especially from the left. So I wanted to dedicate an episode to talking through some of them. My guests today are both on the left but have very different perspectives. Zephyr Teachout is a law professor at Fordham University and one of the most prominent voices in the antimonopoly movement. Saikat Chakrabarti is the president and co-founder of New Consensus [https://www.newconsensus.com/], a think tank that has been trying to think through what it would take to build at Green New Deal scale and pace. And he is currently running to unseat Nancy Pelosi in Congress. I found this conversation wonderfully clarifying — both in the places it revealed agreement, and perhaps even more in the places it revealed difference. Mentioned: “How the Gentry Won: Property Law’s Embrace of Stasis [https://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=5159574]” by David Schleicher and Roderick M. Hills, Jr. “The High Cost of Producing Multifamily Housing in California [https://www.rand.org/pubs/research_reports/RRA3743-1.html]” by Jason M. Ward and Luke Schlake Zephyr’s Book Recommendations: The Promise of Politics [https://www.penguinrandomhouse.com/books/4710/the-promise-of-politics-by-hannah-arendt/] by Hannah Arendt The Populist Moment [https://global.oup.com/academic/product/the-populist-moment-9780195024173] by Lawrence Goodwyn Listen, Liberal [https://us.macmillan.com/books/9781627795401/listenliberal/] by Thomas Frank Saikat’s Book Recommendations: Destructive Creation [https://www.pennpress.org/9780812224313/destructive-creation/] by Mark R. Wilson Bad Samaritans [https://www.bloomsbury.com/us/bad-samaritans-9781596917385/] by Ha-Joon Chang The Defining Moment [https://www.simonandschuster.com/books/The-Defining-Moment/Jonathan-Alter/9780743246019] by Jonathan Alter Thoughts? Guest suggestions? Email us at ezrakleinshow@nytimes.com. You can find the transcript and more episodes of “The Ezra Klein Show” at nytimes.com/ezra-klein-podcast [https://www.nytimes.com/column/ezra-klein-podcast]. Book recommendations from all our guests are listed at https://www.nytimes.com/article/ezra-klein-show-book-recs.html [https://www.nytimes.com/article/ezra-klein-show-book-recs.html] This episode of “The Ezra Klein Show” was produced by Rollin Hu and Jack McCordick. Fact-checking by Michelle Harris, with Kate Sinclair and Mary Marge Locker. Our senior engineer is Jeff Geld, with additional mixing by Aman Sahota and Isaac Jones. Our executive producer is Claire Gordon. The show’s production team also includes Marie Cascione, Annie Galvin, Elias Isquith, Marina King, Jan Kobal and Kristin Lin. Original music by Pat McCusker. Audience strategy by Kristina Samulewski and Shannon Busta. The director of New York Times Opinion Audio is Annie-Rose Strasser. Unlock full access to New York Times podcasts and explore everything from politics to pop culture. Subscribe today at nytimes.com/podcasts [http://nytimes.com/podcasts] or on Apple Podcasts and Spotify.