Ending Human Trafficking Podcast

Eleanor Kennelly Gaetan joins Dr. Sandie Morgan to discuss the critical need for legislative reform to combat online sexual exploitation, focusing on Section 230 immunity and emerging laws like the Take It Down Act. ELEANOR KENNELLY GAETAN Eleanor Kennelly Gaetan is director of public policy at the National Center on Sexual Exploitation in Washington DC. She has been an advocate for stronger laws to fight sexual exploitation and has had a role in passing key anti-trafficking laws like the Justice for Victims of Trafficking Act and SESTA-FOSTA, which changed Section 230 to hold tech platforms more accountable for their role in enabling sex trafficking. KEY POINTS * Human trafficking was only identified as a crime in the year 2000 with the passage of the Trafficking Victims Protection Act, making it a relatively new field where small movements have achieved significant progress. * Eleanor witnessed firsthand in Romania how young women were lured abroad with false promises of legitimate work, only to be trafficked into commercial sexual exploitation, highlighting the critical need for proper victim services rather than detention centers. * The Take It Down Act represents a crucial breakthrough by criminalizing the uploading of non-consensual sexually explicit material for the first time and requiring platforms to provide real human help desks for removal requests within 48 hours. * Image-based sexual abuse creates ongoing trauma for victims because unlike other trafficking incidents that end, having images online means “you’re being raped and it’s online and you can’t get it down,” creating continuous retraumatization. * Section 230 of the Communications Decency Act, passed in 1996 when the internet was nascent, provides broad immunity to internet service providers and has been interpreted by courts as creating a “wall of immunity” for social media platforms. * The case against Twitter involving 13-year-old boys demonstrates how platforms monetize child exploitation material through advertising revenue while claiming Section 230 immunity protects them from liability. * California’s Age Appropriate Design Code represents one approach to reform by requiring companies to test products for age appropriateness before launch, using product liability law to sidestep Section 230 immunity issues. * Meta tracks children’s negative emotions and targets vulnerable youth with harmful content, including targeting kids who fear being “too fat” with eating disorder material, showing the deliberate exploitation of minors. * Bipartisan support exists for reform, with both Democratic and Republican senators preparing to introduce a bill to repeal Section 230, recognizing that tech companies are not policing themselves effectively. * The Social Media Victims Law Center currently represents over 4,000 families whose children have been harmed or killed due to social media platform irresponsibility enabled by Section 230 immunity. * Congressional education on online harms has accelerated with over 24 briefings since 2019, positioning the current Congress as potentially the most informed ever on these issues. * Federal guidance on best practices remains insufficient, with some jurisdictions like San Diego developing excellent collaborative models while others lack functional systems for moving victims into services. RESOURCES * Social Media Victims Law Center – Social Media Litigation Lawyers [https://socialmediavictims.org/] * Can’t Look Away: The Case Against Social Media [https://www.bloomberg.com/features/cant-look-away/] * CDA230 [https://uscode.house.gov/view.xhtml?req=%28title:47%20section:230%20edition:prelim%29] TRANSCRIPT [00:00:00] Welcome to the Ending Human Trafficking Podcast, brought to you by Vanguard University’s Global Center for Women and Justice in Orange County, California. I’m Dr. Sandie Morgan, and this is a show where we equip you to study the issues, be a voice, and make a difference in the fight to end human trafficking right where you are. [00:00:23] Today, I’m honored to welcome Dr. Eleanor Gaetan to the show. She’s director of. Public policy at the National Center on Sexual Exploitation that’s in Washington DC. She has been an advocate for stronger laws to fight sexual exploitation and has had a role in passing key anti-trafficking laws. Like the Justice for Victims of Trafficking Act and Cesta Fossa, which changed Section 230 to hold tech platforms more accountable for their role in enabling sex trafficking. [00:01:07] sandie: Eleanor, we have been in the same movement for decades, and it is exciting to see how some of our long held dreams have come to fruition. [00:01:21] And one of mine has been to have you on this podcast. [00:01:24] 349-guest: Oh, professor Morgan, thank you so much. It’s really a delight to join the coast. I’m speaking to you from Washington DC I know you’re there in California, and we together embrace all the advocates in between. [00:01:36] 349-sandie: Well, and for our listeners who have been long time subscribers, my former podcast intern, I Dallas. [00:01:46] she’s working with Dr. Gataen. So I, it was like full circle, the both coasts, all of us hands held together in this work. It is hard work. It takes dedication and long-term determination. Some people might even say we’re a bit stubborn. [00:02:09] Dr. Gaetan: Certainly stubborn have to be persistent and stubborn. But the great thing about the field of human trafficking and the, you know, this was only identified as a crime in the year 2000. So let’s recall that, that, that there wasn’t a name for human trafficking. until 22, the year 2000, and the Trafficking Victims Protection Act. [00:02:27] So it’s a relatively new field and yet the advance, the progress has been as a result of human champions and a few, you know, it’s a small movement that has mountains. [00:02:42] Sandie: and you were instrumental in passing the first Trafficking Victims Protection Act here in the us. Tell me about that. [00:02:51] guest: So I worked for U-S-A-I-D in Romania, and Romania was an example of a country where when the. When communism ended in 1989, 1990, people had been trapped in their countries. People were desperate to travel, and they lost a lot of jobs, and so people really needed work and they were seeking work abroad. [00:03:11] So young women were especially vulnerable to those promises of a babysitting job or a waitressing job, or an elder care job. Around Western Europe and around the world. and so vulnerable to the, the promises of traffickers. So we witnessed in Romania and Moldova entire villages of young women being being lured abroad, and so many of them abused badly in both legal brothels and illegal prostitution around, around the world. [00:03:39] I mean, the US government was supporting a, a trafficking shelter in Romania and Bucharest that I was helping to manage as a democracy officer. And it was shocking to me that it wasn’t, it wasn’t a, a shelter, it was a detention center. So women were being abused in, say, legal brothels in Germany were arrested, repatriated to their home country. [00:04:01] There’s 20 years old, they come back with nothing and then they’re put in virtually like a prison cell and told they’re supposed to stay in this shelter, but it’s a detention center. And of course they ran away. So I was witnessing the lack, complete lack of services to help people who had been traumatized at a young age in the sex trade, in the commercial sex trade around the world. [00:04:23] Sandie: Wow. And I was in Athens, Greece at that time, and we saw the recidivism as the girls that were quote on quote rescued, just came back to us from Romania, from Moldova.I see their faces even as we’re talking right now. [00:04:38] 349-guest: But to answer your question, it was all those stories from people like you in Greece and me in Bucharest feeding into Washington. So Congress was hearing from both feminist and faith-based organizations about this terrible crime that really takes advantage of the hopes and dreams of youth. I mean boys too, as we know, but mainly women and girls. [00:05:04] And Congress was hearing that and became a bipartisan effort to exert US leadership to end this crime, define it and end it. But at the beginning, it  as you well know, professor Morgan, it really wasn’t international crime. And yet the US didn’t look at itself and say, to what extent do we have human trafficking, both sex trafficking, labor trafficking happening in our own country? [00:05:27] That came a little later. with iterations of the Trafficking Victims Protection Act, but, but it really was the sources Americans abroad reporting on what they were seeing, what you and I were seeing around the world that caused the, the passage of TVPA. [00:05:42] 349-sandie: Eventually that led to the ripple effect of similar legislation in dozens of countries and eventually over 150 and our US. community there in Athens, Greece was very much a part of eventually getting the Greek version passed before the Olympics arrived in 2004. And this really brings up how important legislation and policy is in our movement. [00:06:20] I know a lot of my students, their dream is I’m gonna go and rescue girls. I’m gonna go and start a shelter, things like that. But. The work that William Wilberforce did is a model that I have stuck to in my career of trying to bring together thought leaders and policy implementers. Tell me why policy is critical? [00:06:54] 349-guest: So we’ve just discussed really a great example in which, in, in human trafficking had to be defined legally before you could create a framework for both preventing the crime and prosecuting the criminals and helping the victims. Until we had that law. We didn’t have a framework of reference in order to both prevent it and help those who suffer from the crime. [00:07:20] So policy is crucial to, making operational prevention efforts, protection efforts, prosecution efforts. And what has happened though is that with the internet trafficking is a great example. A perversely excellent example of how a crime changes as it moves online. It’s even more devastating today, the way people are groomed online, and then it moves into real life. [00:07:51] But, but the internet has been, ruinous for many people who’ve fallen into the clutches of predators, and we don’t have sufficient legal response to online trafficking. [00:08:06] 349-sandie: Well, in my world here, there was great celebration when Congress passed the Take It Down Act and I felt like people sort of set their tools down and said, ah, now we can, we can. We’re done. But that’s not the case, we still have to fight the battle on the new frontline, which is online, on the internet, where some folks, estimate 80% of recruiting happens. [00:08:43] The stories of Sextortion are heartbreaking and must be addressed. So tell me what else we need to do besides the Take It Down Act [00:08:58] 349-guest: Wonderful. So the Take It Down. Act was so crucial because it criminalizes for the first time the uploading of non-consensual sexually explicit material, and this was absolutely ruining lives, right? So cases of I’m, I’m friendly with a woman who had no idea that her boyfriend took pictures of them involved in sexual relations. [00:09:22] She thought it was just happening in one room, and instead he made recordings. She had just turned 18. He posts them on PornHub, and in fact, only years later she gets a call from a high school friend and said, you know, I think you’re on PornHub. [00:09:40] And she looks at that. She looks, looks it up. And indeed it is from, a, a moment that she thought was private and it’s online. [00:09:50] It immediately triggered in her so much anxiety and upset. She tried to contact PornHub. There’s no human being you can reach to get material like that down. This is called image-based sexual abuse. And it wasn’t a federal crime until Take it Down Act. So. Now it’s a federal crime and also the the bill, the the legislation requires digital platforms to have a real life help desk. [00:10:18] Where you can go and say, this is not consensual. Take it down. And the platform is required within 48 hours to take it down. Now this will remind you probably of copyright law, if I post three minutes of Beauty and the Beast on YouTube, it is immediately taken down because copyright law is so embedded in our legal framework in the United States, and you cannot just rip off some Disney film and post it as your own. [00:10:44] little personal snippet on YouTube, but the same coverage didn’t help individuals who had their images posted on into the public. And of course, this, this friend of mine had that material circulated internationally. It showed up on 45 websites. There’s no way to take it down once it gets really viral and out in the world. [00:11:05] so Post-traumatic stress disorder is common, losing jobs or relationships, it can be ruinous. [00:11:15] Eleanor Gaetan: And interviewing, women who’ve suffered image-based sexual abuse really underscores the fact that it feels like an ongoing trauma. So. You can have a trafficking incident. [00:11:26] It happened to you. You were violated by a predator. You had a horrible experience. It’s in the past and you go through a healing process, but when images are up online, you’re being raped and it’s online and you can’t get it down. You feel? You experience that as ongoing, ongoing sexual assault. So that’s why it’s, it was especially crucial for a utterly bipartisan bill. [00:11:49] 349-guest: It was introduced a year ago by Senator Ted Cruz in Texas because teenagers who were victims of deep fakes take it down, act all. So includes AI generated deep fakes. So these young, these teens in a high school in Texas had images made of them by another high school, a a male in, in their high school. [00:12:09] They couldn’t get it down. And they went to Senator Cruz and he was really moved by their personal story. And that’s where, that’s the origin of the, of the bill. [00:12:19] 349-sandie: Wow. Okay, so what’s the next [00:12:22] 349-guest: step, right? So that’s criminal, that criminalizes, image-based sexual abuse. But there’s another bill pending called the Defiance Act. And that, it targets the acts of uploaders, but it provides a civil right of action. So victims have a path to justice and can sue, sue those who commit this crime? [00:12:45] In US law, of course, having a criminal component and a civil component really helped amplify the weight of the law and, and start to, you know, people need to be convinced they really shouldn’t do this. But if you suffer, no consequences, the criminality increases. [00:13:04] 349-sandie: and for the victim, sending someone to prison does have a sense of justice, but also the element of restitution that is afforded more in our civil approach [00:13:21] 349-guest: exactly. [00:13:22] 349-sandie: so significant. [00:13:24] So tell us about the Defiance Act. [00:13:27] 349-guest: Well, defiance Act is fascinating because we have, like Senator Durbin from Illinois, a Democrat, very, very, excellent leader in this field. And Senator Graham, a Republican from South Carolina. Again, we’re protecting that bipartisanship on the house side. Uh, representative Ocasio-Cortez is, is the a, a lead sponsor together with. [00:13:49] Uh, Lauren Lee, representative Lee is a Republican from Florida. This is so important to our movement. You know, party label is irrelevant when this horrible thing happens to you. Image-based sexual abuse or human trafficking, doesn’t matter what your politics are. So we’ve worked really hard on Capitol Hill. [00:14:09] Um, ZI will only support bills that are. That have both Democrats and Republicans in support. So defiance is, is got that civil piece. So does a, a bill that, Senator Blackburn from Tennessee and Senator Coons from Delaware, uh, propose no fakes act. Now this goes to the problem of the, that the music industry has identified that voice likenesses can be AI generated voice likenesses can. [00:14:38] Be projected on the internet and people don’t know the difference between, like this, this country singer was testifying, McBride, country, country Music Star testified with Cozzy’s lawyer Kristen Price. And but it also allowsAn individual who suffers from image-based sexual abuse to sue for damages. [00:15:00] So there are a few approaches, to the image-based sexual abuse problem, but we need, it’s like, think of car safety. We need seat belts, we need airbags. We need speed limits. We need driver’s licenses, all of the above in order to protect people who are riding in cars Well. The internet has been the Wild West. [00:15:21] There have been no restrictions on the internet. For a, for a policy explanation, I can provide a policy explanation for why the internet is so dangerous, especially to our youth. And so also addressing the fact that the internet is an utterly unregulated market. Now, I personally am a small government person. [00:15:40] I think we should have a limited government. However, it is fundamental American jurisprudence, this idea of liability. If you harm another person, you should be liable. That is one of the reasons we walk into a Walmart or a, or a Target, and there’s no puddles on any floor. ’cause those, stores are highly aware of liability for if somebody slips and falls in that store, they will be sued. [00:16:06] And individuals get big settlements right from, from slipping and falling. Right? It’s, it is the job of that store to maintain health and safety for those who walk into it, [00:16:17] So we don’t have similar jurisprudence on, well, we don’t have correct laws to protect people online that we do to protect people in the bricks and mortar reality of three-dimensional world. [00:16:31] And that is, is the frontier in which people like me work on policy. That is our most important frontier right now is to protect people online. [00:16:41] 349-sandie: So, I remember the first time somebody really made me stop and think about this a long, this is a long time ago, Ernie Allen, and he started including me in letters to attorneys general about Section 230. [00:17:00] So if you’re one of my students and you’re like, what, what? just look up section 230, do a lit review, but let’s get in a capsule. What is section 230 and why is it like a cornerstone in this battle? [00:17:20] 349-guest: Excellent question. So it’s the section  230 is one provision of a bill called the Communications Decency Act. It was passed in 1996 when the internet was a baby, and Congress wanted to benefit this promising reality of the internet and the worldwide web. And so there had been some cases where, one of the early, like MySpace or an AOL, it, it, it’s a, one of the early manifestations of the internet. [00:17:50] there was concern that how on earth could the internet company, which is really just a highway for information, how could it be held liable for activities? By those posting. Right. So it’s, it’s almost like saying the highway isn’t responsible for a drunk driver. Because that drunk driver is in a car going down the highway, just using the highway as, as a a, a transit, a method for transportation. [00:18:16] And with that idea of the internet as a big neutral highway. The CDA, the Communications Decency Act included few provisions, that were like Good Samaritan provisions saying, you know, the, the, the internet service providers, the ISPs could not be held liable for  what, what was being posted and what was happening online, because they aren’t publishers, you know, they’re, they’re just like a highway for information. [00:18:45] Okay. That bill was actually gutted by the Supreme Court around some First Amendment, questions. But what stood was the provisions known as CDA 230, which said, the internet service providers cannot be held responsible for what is being posted by the content that is being posted online. [00:19:04] Right? That’s all protected by the First Amendment. But fast forward to today and so many courts interpreted those provisions as providing like a wall of immunity, an entire wall of immunity for these, social media platforms and an internet service providers. So we have a case, lemme give you an example. [00:19:27] Let’s look at an example. We have a case against Twitter. Now it’s called X, but the case occurred when it was Twitter. Two boys, 13 year olds. They think they’re talking to a 16-year-old, and it’s Snapchat. It’s not a 16-year-old girl. She keeps asking them to do various sexual acts, including acts with each other, and when she wants to meet them, they block her. [00:19:53] Two years later, so they’re 16. All those images and the boys of course thought it was disappearing. Right. Snap is a, is a platform where people think the, the images disappear. That Predator had made a video of all those separate images and it was child pornography. These were young teens, 13-year-old boys engaged in sexual activity that is by definition, child pornography. [00:20:18] It was posted on Twitter, it was circulating on Twitter, and thank God somebody called the mom of one of the boys and said, your son is up in his room talking about taking his own life. Because he’s so mortified that these images of him full, fully unclothed are circulated at our high school. Mom intervened. [00:20:40] She was a nurse intervened and, and, thank God this her son is alive today, but he still suffers the mortification of those images being blasted around the world. The family, excellent family. The mom and dad were both nurses and they shared shifts so that they would always be home for their kids. [00:20:59] Alert. The police, the police come and say, are you sure you wanna file a report? Your son produced pornography, which is illegal. We could arrest him for producing [00:21:10] 349-sandie: Mm. [00:21:10] 349-guest: I mean, what crazy [00:21:11] 349-sandie: Oh my [00:21:12] 349-guest:Right? And then the family contacted Twitter and said, take it down. These are young boys. We verify they’re 13 years old in these videos. [00:21:23] Twitter came back and said. This doesn’t violate our community standards and left the material up. The only reason that video was taken down was because the family’s pastor happened to have a friend who was a DHS, a Department of Homeland Security agent, flashed a badge from DC and, and Twitter took it down, eventually. [00:21:45] So we have a case, we are with a group of lawyers representing that family. It’s mom is Jane Doe and, and the boy is John Doe. The two boys are, John doe’s. In the filing. So as we’ve entered discovery, we got through in into discovery. The Twitter actually says, we, we don’t care if you call this sex trafficking, because money was made by the advertising, right? [00:22:07] So Twitter was monetizing those images and making money through the ads. That as people were viewing the material. So our legal argument is you’re monetizing commercial sex, sex sexual material, that’s commercial sex act. And so under the Trafficking Victim’s Protection Act, that’s sex trafficking, Twitter comes back and says, doesn’t even matter.We have the rights under CDA  230. [00:22:35] That’s not our problem. You know, it’s, it’s, it’s on our websites, but that’s not our problem. CDA two 30 protects us, and, and we don’t have to take it down. We, we don’t need to deal with it even though they. They demonstrated that they knowingly were aware of this material online and they left it up. [00:22:53] So this is a battleground. We’ve lost this lawsuit, but we hope it goes to the Supreme Court because it’s time for the Supreme Court to really look at this and say, what are you talking about? That’s child pornography, a federal offense. You cannot be facilitating child pornography online. That’s just one example of how, These companies really think they have no responsibility to take down material that is federal criminal material, and they hide behind CDA two 30 to leave it up. [00:23:26] 349-sandie: So how do we begin at not just the national level, but at the local level to combat this [00:23:38] to begin initiatives that call for reform. What can everyday people and politicians at school boards, politicians in local government, city state, professors, thought leaders in our universities? What’s our role in, CDA 230. [00:24:05] 349-guest: So two schools of thought have emerged and California as is so often as a leader, California passed an excellent bill called the Age Appropriate Design Code, [00:24:17] and it said companies are should be obligated. These products are used by youth, you know, adult used by all kinds of people all day long [00:24:28]  before a product, a service, a platform is launched, it needs to be tested and we need to verify that it’s age appropriate and we need to make sure that unsafe products aren’t lost. [00:24:41] So it’s also within the sort of product liability zone of the law. Right. And California, passed the age appropriate design code, which was passed in Vermont. For example, just a few weeks ago, it’s being challenged in court by the, the, the big tech companies. and, and we’ll see where that goes. But that idea is let’s look at these platforms from the product liability standpoint. [00:25:06] So it sort of sides steps the CDA immunity problem and brings new legal theory to bear in order to force these damn companies to be responsible. They’re unbelievably, there’s like so little accountability, an excellent book,  just finished reading it this week. There’s a book called Careless People. [00:25:29] It’s written by Sarah Wynn Williams. She was for 10 years, the Global Public policy leader at Facebook, or Meta, you know, meta owns Facebook and Instagram and WhatsApp. And she testified in the Senate, as she says in her book, Careless People that Meta Tracks children so closely. And knows even their negative emotions, they target ads to kids who are suffering, like fear of having being too fat. [00:25:58] So they’re targeting those kids who fear they’re too fat with material about diets and even dis eating disorder material. It’s terrifyingly irresponsible, and yet they hide behind CDA 230. So the age appropriate design code in California, we’ll see how it goes in the courts, but more states should probably pass the age appropriate design code. [00:26:25] But also, states are looking at AI. Let’s, what about curbing ai? You know, artificial intelligence is being used. To, to generate deep fakes, pornographic material, using your face, but putting in a different body, and that’s terrible for, for the victim too. So state level legislative action is relevant. meanwhile, we just this week a senate office shared with us a bill that would repeal CDA 230, and we were very excited to see for Democrat senators and for Republican senators both. [00:27:03] Already committed to introducing that bill. It hasn’t been introduced yet, so I’m not gonna say who the, members were, but high level, important members of the US Senate have said, enough is enough. We must, force these companies to be accountable ’cause they are not policing themselves. So there’s, there is a bill pending in, in, we believe there will be a. [00:27:24] A bill pending in Congress to repeal CDA 230. I’m gonna mention one thing, that was we were disturbed at in, that came out of the house side. We’ve all heard about the big beautiful bill, the budget reconciliation bill on the house side. It include a very disturbing set of provisions that said no state can regulate AI for 10 years. [00:27:46] Wait a second. A moratorium on state regulation of AI. Why? Our country is a, is a set of 50 states that have their own, you know, have community standards, have their own laws. Why would states not be able to regulate AI? So protests have been raised from, from Republican and Democrat senators. So we hope it will not succeed on the Senate side and we’ll nip it in the bud. [00:28:11] But that’s how powerful big tech is in Congress, that they’re able to engineer a really absurd, right, 10 year moratorium, guess what that is? That is giving AI that same kind of immunity that the internet had under CDA 230 we’re, we’re still struggling to try to get away from the utter. Corporate irresponsibility that CDA two 30 gave us, and now we’re facing an attempt to give that to ai. [00:28:40] sandie: Wow. Okay. So much to think about here. Let’s give some links and suggestions for how people can gain the knowledge and insight to be an articulate, advocate for change in their local community. I am all about pursuing knowledge so that we can show up in these spaces with more than passion, more than anger. [00:29:14] So give us three examples of resources we can look to. [00:29:21] 349-guest: So I’ll send you a link to Professor Mary Gra Leary’s testimony before the Senate Judiciary Committee in which she really deep dives into CDA 230. It’s an excellent, testimony from earlier this year. That’s superb. There, there have been a number of investigative pieces. The Wall Street Journal has done several investigations that are good reads. [00:29:45] for example, in 2023, they revealed that social media algorithms connect pedophiles to children. They, they provide pedophiles with more and more links to kids. You know, quite shocking. Or in your introduction, you, you mentioned, so I can send you links to some of the exceptional Wall Street Journal investigations. [00:30:10] There is a super law center called the Social Media Victims Law Center. They’re featured in a new documentary, it’s called, Can’t Look Away. [00:30:21] 349-sandie: Mm-hmm. [00:30:21] 349-guest: this documentary is just extremely well-informed about the, the, CDA  230 immunity problem. And also, the tragedies of families who’ve lost their loved ones because of irresponsibility that the CDA 230 immunity promotes. [00:30:38] Right now, this Social Media Victims Law Center has over 4,000 families whose, whose children have been harmed or who have lost their kids as a result of responsibility in social media. and, and there the Social Media Victim’s Law Center website is quite informative. So I’ll, I’ll send you that link. [00:30:58] There have been over 24 Congressional briefings on this subject since 2019. So in the last six years, over 24. Congress is about the best educated on the online harms. We are hoping this Congress 2024. no 2025, 2026, the hundred 19th Congress is the one that will get serious. [00:31:22] 349-sandie: Okay. I think we will have to have another conversation for sure. And I wanna bring this also to, you mentioned the faith-based community, and I think this discussion belongs in our local [00:31:43] religious community, the youth leaders, the folks doing parenting classes, how do parents respond? So I’m gonna probably call you and ask you to come back and talk with me about that. All right? [00:31:58] 349-guest: Absolutely [00:31:58] Love to, and, and I know that the White House has set up a faith-based office, that is looking at these issues. So hopefully we’ll get some more federal guidance because one thing, and you know, professor Morgan from the human trafficking movement, it’s, it’s, there isn’t enough federal. [00:32:17] Federal guidance on best practices. You know, there are jurisdictions around the country that are doing some very good work or, or places where, like San Diego has a, a superb district, attorney or who, who has helped engineer like MOUs between police and direct service providers. And it’s very, it’s it like women who are in exploitation or being exploited, being trafficked and getting them into services. There are some jurisdictions that are doing this well, and then there are places that are absolutely, without model. You know, they’re not, they, they, they don’t have a highly functional system for moving victims into services. So I wish we got more tips and tips from the federal government, right? The Department of Justice sees all this happening around the country. [00:33:03] Well, tell us who’s doing the best job. [00:33:06] 349-sandie: Those are good questions. I’m gonna start a list of questions and look for guests that will join us to discuss those. Dr. Gataen, I am delighted to have this conversation. [00:33:24] We’re gonna keep it going, and thank you so much for being part of our podcast today. [00:33:30] 349-guest: It’s a pleasure. Thank you so much. I hope I can come back on because it’s, it’s so important and you’ve done such remarkable work over the years by combating human trafficking. Thank you for everything you’ve done. [00:33:43] 349-sandie: Oh, thank you. And we’ll get together maybe in the same space in the spring for Ensure Justice. And I want our listeners to start planning now for March, 2026. Thanks so much.Have a great day. [00:34:00] 349-guest: Bye-bye. [00:34:01] Wow, Eleanor, thank you for shedding light surrounding section 230 in the fight against online sexual exploitation. [00:34:10] Your expertise really helps me understand better how advocacy and legislative reform play vital roles in protecting communities. Listeners, I encourage you to take the next step by visiting our website, @endinghumantrafficking.org to check out our show notes and other episodes. If you haven’t already, be sure to subscribe so you don’t miss any of the important conversations we’re having. [00:34:45] We’d also love your help in growing this podcast. You can start by just following us and connecting on Facebook and Instagram and LinkedIn. And if you know someone who would benefit from today’s episode, invite them to subscribe and join our community. Thank you for listening. I’ll be back in two weeks.

[https://endinghumantrafficking.org/wp-content/uploads/2025/06/EHT-Cover-Image-pz2wmj95p82x8e8rwpkay1aph4hbtghcivuiav3oxs-300x300.jpg] Andrew Kroeger joins Dr. Sandie Morgan as the two discuss how anyone can find their unique role in fighting human trafficking without changing careers, using the metaphor of grabbing a handle on an ancient Greek pithari jar. ANDREW KROEGER Andrew Kroeger is a podcast producer with over a decade of experience and a proud Vanguard alum. Before podcasting, he worked in book publishing as an editor and spent years as a live sound engineer. He’s also passionate about global missions, having spent many summers living in Romania, doing outreach work for the past eight years. Andrew has been the invisible force behind this podcast, editing every episode, managing the website, and ensuring content reaches listeners in over 170 countries. What’s fascinating is how Andrew never set out to work in anti-human trafficking – this opportunity came to him through his existing skills and connections. KEY POINTS * Andrew’s journey into anti-trafficking work began as a Vanguard student doing live sound for events, which led to connections that eventually brought him to podcast production work eight years later. * The pithari metaphor illustrates how fighting human trafficking requires many people finding their unique “handle” – you don’t need to carry the entire burden alone, just find where your skills fit. * Andrew emphasizes that people don’t need to change careers or entire life directions to make a meaningful impact in anti-trafficking work – opportunities often come through existing skills and connections. * His global mission experience, particularly in Romania and Egypt’s “Garbage City,” gave him firsthand perspective on trafficking issues that keeps him passionate about the work. * Eight years of editing every episode has transformed Andrew from a “tech guy” into a content expert who can now play an editorial role in shaping the podcast’s message. * Working consistently with anti-trafficking content can lead to emotional numbing, requiring intentional effort to maintain compassion and avoid becoming cynical about the work. * The podcast’s focus on hope and human dignity, rather than just statistics and outcomes, sets it apart from other anti-trafficking content and prevents burnout. * Andrew’s favorite episodes are those featuring Romania because they connect to his personal mission experience, and the recent AI episode with David Tyre because it showed how emerging technology can help rather than hinder anti-trafficking efforts. * The podcast is transitioning to video format to reach more students and young professionals who prefer visual content and want to share episodes with friends and classmates. * Finding your “handle” means recognizing opportunities that come to you naturally rather than forcing your way into anti-trafficking work – partnership is often more effective than starting from scratch. RESOURCES * Connect with Andrew [https://bartonhill.fm/] * 282 – Crisis Prevention of Ukraine Refugee Trafficking, with Ioana Bauer [https://endinghumantrafficking.org/282/] * 341 – Following the Money: How Financial Crime Investigations Disrupt Human Trafficking [https://endinghumantrafficking.org/341-following-the-money/] TRANSCRIPT [00:00:00] Sandie Morgan: Welcome to the Ending Human Trafficking Podcast here at Vanguard University’s Global Center for Women and Justice in Orange County, California. I’m Dr. Sandie Morgan, and this is the show where we empower you to study the issues, be a voice, and make a difference in ending human trafficking. [00:00:24] Today I’m flipping the script and putting our producer Andrew Kroeger in front of the microphone. Andrew is a podcast producer with over a decade of experience. And a proud Vanguard alum. Before podcasting, he worked in book publishing as an editor and spent years as a live sound engineer. He’s also passionate about global missions, having spent many summers living in Romania, doing outreach work for the past eight years. [00:01:05] Andrew has been the invisible force behind this podcast. He’s been editing every episode, managing our website, and ensuring our content reaches listeners in over a 170 countries. What’s fascinating is how Andrew never set out to work in anti-human trafficking. This opportunity came to him through his existing skills and connections. [00:01:40] In our conversation, we’ll discuss how he found his handle. Think about the pithari jar, why you don’t need to change careers to make a difference in fighting human trafficking, and we’ll also share some exciting news about the podcast future direction. And now let’s hop to the interview. [00:02:07] One of our favorite stories on the ending Human Trafficking podcast is the story of the pithari. The pithari is a huge jar, a vessel in the King’s pantry of the palace at On the island of Crete. And I still remember the first time I saw it because I thought. I could stand up inside of that. It was so huge and I learned that it was used to bring olive oil, grain, nuts, whatever, into the pantry. [00:02:47] Now the pantry was downstairs in the King’s palace and the stairs were rather narrow and very steep, and I wondered how the people could get it down there. This is 3000 years ago, and then it was explained that the handles that I thought were decorative were instrumental. They were baked on from the top. [00:03:14] Of the jar all the way to the bottom and all the way around. So try to imagine people being able to grab a handle, whether they’re on the top stair or middle or down below, to carry this huge vessel filled with maybe olive oil. You don’t want it to spill, and everyone had to find. Their handle to carry it safely to the bottom,And that is the image I have in my mind when I think about how many people it takes to lead the anti-human trafficking movement. And one of the most important people that you never get to see or meet, and the ending Human Trafficking podcast is our producer. Andrew Kroeger. So I have him today in studio and I am excited to welcome you here. [00:04:16] How does it feel to be on the other end of the microphone? [00:04:21] Andrew Kroeger: It feels absolutely wild, and I’ve never been more nervous. [00:04:24] In my entire life. [00:04:26] Sandie Morgan: Oh my gosh. So let’s do a little bit of our origin story. And when you joined the team, most of our listeners, remember when Dave Stachowiak was on our Global Center for Women I Justice Board and said, let’s start a podcast. [00:04:43] And I’m like, what? We started the podcast. We were co-hosts for years, and that was his handle in how to respond to anti-human trafficking. But today you are the producer. [00:05:01] Andrew Kroeger: I am the producer, so the story actually goes way back, way before this show, and I was actually a student here at Vanguard and a sound engineer here on campus doing live sound for events and every big conference you had on campus. [00:05:16] I would run the sound for it. So I got to know you guys years and years ago and then somehow I know, stayed in touch doing all sorts of projects and I work with Dave a lot and the, something was changing on the Vanguard website and we were gonna lose all of our episodes, so we thought now’s the time to build our own website. [00:05:35] And at the time I was building websites for people and salvaged all these episodes that were gonna disappear. And then I ended up producing all of them. That was eight, eight years ago. So the story with us goes way back to running events and doing, you know, stacking chairs in auditoriums, doing all sorts of interesting stuff. [00:05:53] And I really didn’t know you beyond those few events. So it’s really cool to connect again, like that. [00:05:59] Sandie Morgan: Vanguard alums are so a part of our story at the Global Center. [00:06:05] Andrew Kroeger: That is for sure. So tell me a little bit about how you see your role in carrying this issue forward. I think of my role in two ways. First of all, it’s the obvious stuff is the producers. [00:06:22] So I’m sort of the tech guy behind the scenes and I make sure the websites are still running and episodes are being recorded and put together properly. But also I. My role is maybe not one that Sandie ever feels, but I feel like the a perfect man on the street in an interview where I don’t really know the subject. [00:06:39] I mean, I’ve been listening to every single episode for eight years, so I do know the subject well now, but when I first started, it was really interesting listening as a non-expert and kind of going along the journey. But now I feel like. I play more of an editorial role where I know as I’m doing an an edit where to move things around and where to make sure we preserve something because it’s an important point and where we are able to cut things down for time and that was something that is a role. [00:07:08] I wasn’t playing in the beginning. I was just sort of learning and now I think that’s a really cool part of the job we have. We have now. [00:07:14] Sandie Morgan: So when I think about how you got involved in this and where you are in your life and your career, I’m curious about how you invested so much of your personal passion and compassion for global issues for the marginalized, and somehow I believe that is a key part of why you keep showing up. [00:07:42] It’s not just because you’re the tech guy. Is that what you called yourself? [00:07:47] Andrew Kroeger: I don’t know [00:07:50] Andrew Kroeger: Yeah. So I am, I am, like I said, just a tech guy and just, uh, innocent bystander at the beginning, and now I’ve become sort of a content topical expert just by listening. [00:08:02] But the reason I keep coming back and investing so much of my own energy into this is I think I’ve spent my entire life doing sort of short term mission trips all over the world, but also all across the US and in Mexico. And I think working with all these people across the world has given me the opportunity to see, to see. [00:08:24] The other person’s perspective in a way that I wouldn’t get just living in Orange County. So for example, in Egypt I went to, I think they call it Garbage city. It’s basically the Cairo [00:08:33] city dump. And we spent a couple weeks there working with kids and seeing a lot of the human trafficking stuff going on over there. [00:08:42] And then I also spent many, many years in Romania. I spent a lot of summers there and [00:08:48] That’s a major hub for trafficking in that part of Eastern Europe. And I was working specifically with gypsies, and that really gave me, I think, an an interesting view that, like I said, I hadn’t had before in Orange County. [00:09:01] So now coming back here, I found I still apply that sort of that global perspective and that that care and compassion for people that I learned by being alongside them rather than just reading about them or learning about them. And I think that’s what keeps me coming back to this is, you know, there’s a lot of episodes with, Ioana Bauer, who’s from Romania, and we think the most recent one she did maybe was about Ukraine or a couple episodes ago. [00:09:26] And I’ve got a friend, a close friend who’s a Ukrainian refugee and learning about the trafficking situation there, specifically with Ukrainians, again, brought it. All that right. Closer to my home. ’cause I know somebody who’s lived through that and that’s a really cool, like a cool kind of connection point again, and that’s why I keep coming back to this. [00:09:45] Sandie Morgan: So when I think about the pithari, which is kind of our theme, we have a huge issue, too big for one person to carry. [00:09:55] But the impact of The Ending Human Trafficking podcast, it’s turned you into an armchair expert. Is that right? and you get to connect with people literally all over the world, and your personal compassion is energized by those connections, but at the same time, you have an important role. It is significant to have the behind the scenes production of this podcast. [00:10:33] Tell me how that makes you feel. It’s a pretty heavy lift, and I don’t think people understand what it takes to produce a podcast. And actually I have to interrupt myself here because I’ve, I’m on Instagram, I am on other social media, and it always feels like anybody can do a podcast. [00:10:58] You just need a phone and do this, and you’re done. And then I listen to podcasts and now. I listen occasionally to our podcast and it is very good to hear the quality and the careful editing that keeps it, most of the time, pretty close to our 30 minute limit, which fits a lot of people’s commutes. [00:11:28] And so your technical expertise is a handle on that pithari. And what, how do you understand that as, as a mission, as an occupation, as a driving force that values that behind the scene contribution. [00:11:51]Andrew Kroeger: That’s an interesting question. I think because I, I’ve done all this mission work all across the world and I came home and I’m just kind of settled into a career doing all sorts of projects for all sorts of clients, and I. [00:12:02] Andrew Kroeger: Had sort of gotten disconnected from the issue because you know, it’s been a long time since I was a student here running sound for events for the global center here, and I was just going about my daily life and then this whole thing kind of plopped into my lap because I had another client I was working with, Dave, the co-host we mentioned earlier. [00:12:19] I work with him on his show and he called me one day and he said, Hey, we need some help on this show. And I said, okay, whatever. I just thought it was just another random project I’d be doing it. And when it started, that was really all it was. Was just another project. But as time has gone on, like I said, I’ve, I’ve become less of a random listener and more of an expert and so involved in it. [00:12:41] And I found that all the stuff that I’d done there earlier in my life with traveling and working with all these people perfectly came back and tied into what I’m doing now, where I’m able to help people even though I’m not able to travel anymore, I’m still able. To be a part of that fight against trafficking. [00:12:58] To me, that was super, super cool. [00:13:00] So all the background stuff I do. So we talk about editing and yeah, every, every show is edited, some of them better than others, so you don’t know. They’re being edited. And what we try to do here is [00:13:10] to make sure nothing we edit changes the message or the content in any way. It’s just helping people express their ideas better and so we can meet our time goals, so we can respect your time as a listener. [00:13:25] And that process. Again, it’s like all the traveling I’ve done that process is also using a skillset set. I spent my entire life developing. I was a book editor for a long time before this, and it’s again, really cool seeing how all that stuff is tying together into this role, the travel with, which gives me the, the, the compassionate ear and the care for these people and just my random skillset. [00:13:46] So it’s been cool how it’s all tied right back together [00:13:49] Sandie Morgan: And going back to our image of the pithari, and we’ll have that picture on the webpage if you are trying to imagine it. And this idea that there is a handle, there is a place that your unique skillset. Is just right for you don’t have to carry the whole thing. [00:14:12] I often talk to nonprofit leaders who feel overwhelmed by the burden, and I think one of the things we have to do better is engage our partners in the community that can find a handle and make the work lighter for everybody. [00:14:32] Andrew Kroeger: and, and like with me, I didn’t have to find like make a new handle for myself or knock down doors to find a way I could help. [00:14:39] I’m just going about my daily life and things are just coming to me and I’m recognizing an opportunity as some way that I can help. I didn’t have to change my entire life to do this. And I think a lot of people can be the same way. [00:14:50] Sandie Morgan: I love that, and I often wish there was a way, now I’ll refer them to this conversation because I have students who come in and they wanna change their major, they wanna change their career. [00:15:04] “I wanna fight human trafficking. How do I do that?” And that is exactly right. There is one handle that is perfect for you. I don’t need you to change who you are and what you’re good at. [00:15:21] Andrew Kroeger: Yeah. And, and I always thought too, if you want to continue doing like mission work like I was doing, or, or run a nonprofit or something, you have to quit everything you do in your entire life just to do that. And that’s definitely not the case. And it’s probably not even the best approach anyway. ’cause there’s so many other people already doing all this stuff. [00:15:36] Find a way to partner with them, grab a handle on their pithari jar rather than starting, you know, reinventing the wheel. [00:15:43] Sandie Morgan: I love that. Okay, so you do the behind the scenes stuff, and I do have to thank you publicly. [00:15:51] When I meet people, they say, oh, Dr. Morgan, you are so articulate. I never hear. An uh, or an eh. I was like, yeah, thank you, Andrew. [00:16:04] Andrew Kroeger: Yeah. [00:16:05] Sandie Morgan: He edits out for time purposes. Of course. Not for my vanity. Is that right? [00:16:10] Andrew Kroeger: But it’s all shows. Like I said, all shows are being edited and they’re all editing out, that kind of stuff because it doesn’t help help people with understanding. It’s distracting. And it’s really easy to do. [00:16:20] It’s doesn’t take that long to do now, and I think that that’s a service we’re providing the listeners, but also something that helps the guests feel comfortable coming on the show, knowing, okay, there’s somebody kinda watching out for me as I’m going through this, and I think it helps reduce the stress level a lot for guests too. [00:16:37] So again, it’s just like one thing I can do, I’m not there in person recording except for today. Obviously this is weird for me, but. My presence is there helping them behind the scenes. And I think that brings a lot of peace to people, and that’s part of the things I love most about what I do. [00:16:52] Sandie Morgan: Oh, I love it too. [00:16:54] And I always tell my guests that, don’t worry, Andrew. We’ll fix that. Yeah. So, okay, let’s talk about some of your favorite episodes. What are they and why? [00:17:08] Andrew Kroeger: I think the, the ones I, I love the most are the ones where Romania comes up ’cause that’s where my heart is and I still want to get back there. I thought I’d end up believing there forever. I love those episodes because those are sort of the ones that tie me back to why I am even doing this in the first place. The love for the people that I’ve seen and you know, after a decade or whatever, things just start to feel distant. You know, you still have friends there, but you don’t talk to ’em very often, if ever. [00:17:35] And it starts to feel just so foreign and you sort of lose track of it. And you don’t care so much about the people just ’cause you’re not around them. And this has been a really cool way for me to kind of dive back into that world ’cause that was really what made me compassionate person that I am doing that work. [00:17:50] And I love coming into the office here and seeing all the posters for all the Romanian trips you guys have done.all over Romania, and it’s so cool for me to see that because I’m not, I’m not able to get over there right now. [00:18:00] Sandie Morgan: Wow. Any other episodes that you found really important? Yeah, [00:18:05] Andrew Kroeger: the one we did with David Tyre recently about AI was fascinating to me because people are so scared of AI. Because it could do a lot of damage, but also does a lot of good stuff and it’s really cool seeing emerging technology helping us in the fight against human trafficking instead of making things worse for us. [00:18:25] So the way they’re using AI modeling to track financial records it’s allowed us to do things that we never could have imagined like the speed and the scale that you can find problems and track people down has completely changed, and I think they’re doing amazing work. [00:18:40] That was super exciting. [00:18:41] Sandie Morgan: That’s very cool. [00:18:43] Has anything surprised you about producing the podcast? [00:18:47] Andrew Kroeger: One thing that’s been interesting for me is years ago when you hear about trafficking and you watch a documentary or, or something about it, and this might be a hot take, but you get really impacted by it. [00:19:00] ’cause it’s so, it’s so scary and I have been doing this for so long that I’ve heard all these stories and in some way it’s, it’s kept me compassionate, but it’s also sort of numbed me to the harsh realities of this, and I think that’s something a lot of people working in nonprofits. [00:19:19] Face is it’s, it sort of becomes normalized and you, and you’re not really shocked by anything like you think about it and it saddens you where you’re not shocked by it. And my mom got back from a trip to India. She was doing a mission trip there, and she came back sharing all these videos about like documentaries she was watching about the girls she was working with there and I [00:19:40] just sort of, it just sort of rolled right off of me and I didn’t think much about it. And it was a really, ’cause because I just, I’ve, I know so much about it now that I’m not shocked like she is. And I think that’s a really cool, wake up call for me and anybody who’s working with nonprofits to, to continually kind of check your compassion level and make sure you’re not just going through it. [00:20:01] That was a big, surprising takeaway for me. And it’s sort of a, I don’t know, again, a hot take. But being on the show and actively engaging in the way I am is what’s allowed me to continue doing this. Whereas if you were just reading books about it and not really doing anything about it, I think it’d be really easy to become cynical. [00:20:20] Sandie Morgan: Mm. [00:20:21] Andrew Kroeger: And, and having, being an active participant and doing good is, is a much, much better approach. [00:20:26] Sandie Morgan: I love that. [00:20:28] So you guys listening, I, I need you to know I don’t come up with all the questions. I’ve got interns, staff, and Andrew to help me. And so this next question I did not write, I’m just just getting that out there. [00:20:44] So here’s the next question, Andrew. What is it like working with Sandie and what should listeners know about her? [00:20:54] Sandie Morgan: I know, you’re laughing. [00:20:55] I have to think about this one. One thing that’s related to what I just said about sort of getting numbed to things is Sandie’s like a little fireball of energy for. Fighting trafficking and she knows far, far more than I will ever know, and she never seems to get numb to it. And I think there’s something special about her that that allows her to continue, continue, continue, and never stop. [00:21:20] And it’s probably exhausting for her, but it’s also cool to see how somebody who is in a position where. It’d be so easy to be completely burnt out and just kind of grinding away and applying for grants and, oh, here’s another one. Another year, oh, we’re doing these numbers, but losing sight of the actual humans behind those numbers, and I think that’s  something Sandie does really cool. [00:21:41] That’s what I would say. [00:21:43] Sandie Morgan: Aw, thank you Andrew. [00:21:46] Andrew Kroeger: so the point, the point was be like, Sandie, don’t be like me. [00:21:51] Sandie Morgan: No. but it takes, uh, community like you around me to make sure that fire keeps burning. So, and that kind of leads me to the next question. [00:22:01] What makes the Ending Human Trafficking podcast different? [00:22:07] Andrew Kroeger: I think our focus on, on hope is a, a key difference. I mean, it, it’s all, we all, we frame everything around education. We’re trying to teach people, but we do everything with kind of a hopeful perspective that a lot of nonprofits in any industry, I think it’s easy to lose that hope. [00:22:28] Andrew Kroeger: And again, like I keep talking about getting back to that grind and I think that, that this podcast is really, really good about always emphasizing the hope and the progress and the dignity that people have, rather than just talking about numbers and outcomes. [00:22:44] Sandie Morgan: I agree entirely, and it is certainly one of my goals to make sure that this podcast points people to hope and their role in growing hope. [00:22:58] They are part of the solution, and as we look at our future and the podcast. This is episode number 348. We started in 2011. and we just keep plugging along. And so if you were able to cast vision for the next. Three years, what would your hopes for the podcast be? [00:23:32] Well, I’ll tell you what we’re doing in the next few months, which is helping our goal for the next few years is we’re actually switching to video. I don’t know if that’s a big reveal or not. Maybe we’ve talked [00:22:35] Sandie Morganoh my gosh. No we haven’t. But I’m scared. [00:23:44] Andrew Kroeger: the cat’s outta the bag now, so we’re switching the video at some point. We’re working on, it’s a work in progress, like all things, and the goal with that is to. To make, make this more accessible to more people. So I think right now a lot of our listeners are professionals working in nonprofits and things like that, and we have lots and lots of guests who are outside of that system, but still fighting trafficking [00:24:08] And I think that’s one way. Switching to video will help us reach more people like that because they’re not just finding one little audio only show we can get on YouTube. We can get on all the social media platforms and really have compelling content that people can engage with. [00:24:23] So we’ll get more students listening. We have a lot of students here listening and they’re continually asking for video, video, video. ’cause they wanna share these with their friends. And that’s the best way to do it. So I’m really excited. Switching the video, it’ll allow us to increase, uh, increase, increase the size of the audience is not the goal. [00:24:41] The goal is impact. So people can find how they can help. And the more people we can reach, the more people we can help them find their, you know, their ju their handle on the pithari. And I think that’s a really cool, cool thing that we’re looking forward to doing in the next few years. [00:24:55] Sandie Morgan: I absolutely resonate with the responsiveness to the student population because I do see the future of combating human trafficking. We have to hand this off to the next generation of professionals when. [00:25:14] I came back from Spain and our study abroad, and if you haven’t listened to episode 347, friends, go back and listen. Five students from 19 to 20 and their passion and their. Vision for how they’re going to use their major and join this fight inspires me to keep doing the podcast because the next generation, they’re going to be the ones to end human trafficking. [00:25:48] Andrew Kroeger: Yeah. And that’s exactly it. The next generation is, is everything is video. [00:25:53] Even podcasts, audio, podcasts are now video. All the shows are switching. It’s because, because that’s where the people are and I think as, as we wanna bring new people into the fold, that’s the way you gotta reach ’em where they are. And if we keep doing what we’re doing with audio only, we’re not gonna be able to reach all those people so they won’t even know how they can fit in. [00:26:13] To the big picture. This is a way we can do that. And I’m, I’m really excited about video. [00:26:17] Sandie Morgan: Well, and I’m really grateful to come back to how we started that I have a tech guy who found a handle, to help move this issue forward because I can have all the knowledge. And the understanding around human trafficking, but I gotta have somebody to teach me how to do the recordings and [00:26:43]  make sure everything is uploaded correctly and you’re so patient, and I know you said nice things about me, but what I want [00:26:55] Andrew Kroeger: was I called you a ball of fire, which is good or bad, [00:26:57] Sandie Morgan: ah, [00:26:58] Andrew Kroeger: depending on the direction it’s heading. [00:27:01] Sandie Morgan: Well, you are, steadfast and. [00:27:05] Definitely patient. I, this is not, tech is not my generation’s forte, but I keep recording. I even took portable equipment with me to Spain and produce that amazing episode. Seriously, go back and listen toit. [00:27:24] Andrew Kroeger: It’s a good one. [00:27:25] Sandie Morgan: Share it with other students because we want them to see themselves grabbing a handle and we move this issue forward and finish it. [00:27:38] Andrew Kroeger: the next few years will be huge for us, I think. [00:27:40] Sandie Morgan: Well, I’m gonna buy more lipstick ’cause I’m gonna be on video. That’s gonna be my big, big takeaway from this transition. [00:27:48] Andrew, thank you for coming on the podcast, but thank you especially for faithfully making sure that the podcast gets produced and is available to people around the world. [00:28:04] Andrew Kroeger: You bet. Stay tuned to everybody. Good stuff is coming. [00:28:07] Thank you, Andrew, for finally stepping in front of the microphone and sharing your insights about finding your handle in the anti-trafficking movement. Your reminder that you don’t need to change your entire life to make a meaningful impact is exactly what so many of our listeners need to hear. [00:28:30] Sandie Morgan: And yes. Andrew revealed our big news. [00:28:33] We are transitioning to video. This will help us reach more students and young professionals who are asking for video content so they can share these conversations with their friends and classmates. [00:28:50] Take the next step. Go over to ending human trafficking dot. Org where you can find show notes for this episode. Follow us on LinkedIn, Facebook, and Instagram. And if you are already part of our community, share this episode with someone who might be wondering how they can get involved. [00:29:15] There’s a handle on this enormous vessel that’s perfectly shaped for your hands. Find it, grab it, and help us carry this issue forward. I’ll be back in two weeks for another

[https://endinghumantrafficking.org/wp-content/uploads/2025/06/499669553_18508356190010812_7669839499820235800_n-1-300x169.jpg] Dr. Brenda Navarrete and a group of Vanguard University students join Dr. Sandie Morgan as they reflect on their study abroad trip to Spain, where they partnered with Fiat to learn about trauma-informed care, survivor empowerment, and global anti-trafficking efforts. DR. BRENDA NAVARRETE AND STUDENTS Dr. Brenda Navarrete is a professor and research associate at Vanguard University and an expert in trauma-informed survivor care. She teaches in the university’s Online Human Trafficking Certificate program. Her knowledge and cultural insight helped shape a meaningful and immersive learning experience for the Vanguard students during their study abroad program. KEY POINTS * The study abroad trip to Madrid gave Vanguard students firsthand experience with global anti-trafficking work through a partnership with Fiat, a nonprofit serving survivors in Spain. * Students emphasized learning trauma-informed principles, such as avoiding re-victimization and respecting survivor autonomy. * Art therapy and creative expression were highlighted as effective and healing methods used at the safe home, with students witnessing their calming and empowering effects. * The cultural value of acomodida—a spirit of humble, proactive service—became a guiding principle for student engagement with survivors. * Students learned that trauma-informed care includes mutuality and empowerment, where survivors also offer and give, creating meaningful connection. * Activities like cooking, sharing stories, and doing art together fostered authentic relationships and mutual respect. * Projects like the Tree of Life and vision boards allowed survivors to express their roots, hopes, and dreams in empowering and therapeutic ways. * The behind-the-scenes roles at Fiat, from psychologists to accountants to legal teams, revealed the extensive support system needed to care for survivors effectively. * The experience helped students connect their faith, education, and career goals with real-world advocacy and social justice work. * Multiple students reflected on how the trip inspired them to pursue their dreams, shift their career direction, and deepen their commitment to anti-trafficking work. * Dr. Brenda and Dr. Sandie both emphasized the mutual transformation that occurred during the trip—for both the survivors and the students—through shared humanity and humility. * Students left with a renewed sense of purpose, hope, and vision for how they can contribute to justice and healing in their own communities. RESOURCES * Trip photos on the GCWJ Facebook page [https://www.facebook.com/VUGCWJ] TRANSCRIPT [00:00:00] Welcome to the Ending Human Trafficking Podcast. I’m Dr. Sandie Morgan, and this is the show where we equip you to study the issues, be a voice and make a difference. In the Fight to End human trafficking here at the Global Center for Women in Justice at Vanguard University and wherever you are. [00:00:22] In this special episode, we’re joined by a passionate group of Vanguard University students, Bella Luzi, Alba, deiz Alvarado. Itel Monroy, Delaney Menninger, and Ariana Johnson. Along with professor and research associate Dr. Brenda Navarrete. They were all on the recent study abroad trip to Madrid, Spain. During this trip, we partnered with Fiat, an amazing nonprofit dedicated to preventing human trafficking and supporting survivors. [00:01:05] This experience gave our students a firsthand look at the realities of global anti-trafficking efforts, what prevention looks like in real communities, how frontline nonprofits operate, and the importance of collaboration. [00:01:25] Let’s listen in as they reflect on how this journey shaped their learning, their faith, and their future advocacy. [00:01:35] Sandie Morgan: I [00:01:35] have been in Spain for the last 11 days with a Vanguard University Global Center for Women and Justice Study Abroad team. They have been working with the organization called Fiat, here in Madrid, Spain. [00:01:57] and we have spent several days working in the aftercare home and we have spent time. With the staff and professionals at F. So let’s have a conversation from the student’s perspective about their experience and what they learned. Let’s start with you, Bella, and tell us what did you expect? [00:02:30] Guests: Hi, my name’s Bella Luzi. I am a, I just finished up my freshman year at Vanguard University. I am majoring in communications and I have a minor in Women in Justice. coming onto this trip, I really didn’t know what to expect. I took Intro to Women in Justice this year, so I got a brief understanding of, the patriarchy and just kind of dipped my toes into, um, women I justice. [00:02:56]And so, coming onto this trip, I just had, Just open expectations and just was curious to see what I was gonna learn and find out. and I was really pleasantly surprised with, what I, what I ended up acquiring from this trip. [00:03:10] Sandie Morgan: Let’s go to you, Alba. [00:03:13] Guests: Hi, my name is Alba Alvarado. I’m a graduated senior and I’m a sociology major with a minor in criminology. [00:03:21] I didn’t really have an expectation. I was blessed enough to go to Greece last year with Dr. Morgan, and I was trying to see the differences of what we. We’re gonna do and what we did, but I knew we were gonna meet wonderful ladies like Fiona, her daughter, and the women in the safe home. So I was really excited to get to know everybody and learn more from it. [00:03:47] Sandie Morgan: Thank you. [00:03:47] Guests: Hello, my name is Roy. I am a freshman. I am majoring in liberal studies with a minor in criminal justice and overall. I think I had an expectation but didn’t at the same time. I tried to make sure like my expectations were low, so then when I got there, I was just amazingly surprised of like everything we were doing, like all of the, presentations and being able to just be with the women and, and see with sort of their daily life looks like. [00:04:21] Sandie Morgan: Ariana. [00:04:23] Guests: Hi, my name’s Ariana Johnson. I am going to be a sophomore this year. I am majoring in theology and minoring in women’s justice. I. As along with the other ladies, I didn’t have many expectations for the trip. I am currently an intern at, the Global Center and have learned a lot, and I was just excited to meet these women and make relationships and learn a lot. [00:04:51] And I am Delaney Menninger. I am a incoming senior at Vanguard who’s studying sociology with a minor in women’s justice. I also have worked for the center for this past year, so I’ve gotten some good information on what human trafficking kind of looks like. I’ve worked a lot on the preventative side of it, but I was really excited to learn more about victim services and kind of see what that looks like to. [00:05:18] Be in that place of taking care of somebody. [00:05:21] Sandie Morgan: A major focus of this study abroad was to understand trauma-informed survivor care. Dr. Brenda Navarrete is an expert in that and teaches that in our online human trafficking certificate. And we had two guest lecturers from Fiat that are psychologists that work with victims becoming survivors and going on to be reintegrated in society. [00:05:57] So I’d like to hear from a student perspective, what were the main things that stood out to you about trauma informed practices? Either from your personal perspective, what you were told, and then what you actually experienced in [00:06:21] the [00:06:21] home. [00:06:23] Guests: So when we were preparing for the trip, we talked a little bit about trauma-informed care, and then our psychologist kind of gave us some more information on that. A really big part of trauma-informed care is making sure that you’re not re-victimizing, people who have been through these experiences, making sure that you’re not. [00:06:42] Being consistent with asking these questions and prying and trying to get something for your own entertainment or curiosity. And so I think that was something that everybody did a great job of being a person who was there, if that was something they wanted to talk about, but not prying for our own personal gain or for, you know, to fulfill that kind of natural curiosity that we have. [00:07:04] And then I also think that, just making sure we were, Understanding cultural context where people are coming from being very, just in the know of what they had been through without applying that to everything that they were, and kind of again, revictimizing them into that context. [00:07:22] One thing, I really saw in the context of the home, that we learned about in the lecture, Was the kind of therapy that F offers, for the women. And one thing that really stood out, stood out to me was, um, the art therapy and how one of the women in the home, verbalized with us that she really feels relaxed when she’s painting. [00:07:43] and I thought that it was really cool to be able to just see that, in action. And when we did a art project and you could just see like the relaxation coming over the women when they were partaking in something that like, Not only, not only relax them, but that they knew that it was like their thing, their go-to. [00:08:01] so it’s really important to have those things for these So when they’re feeling stressed and anxious or, just having a hard time that they can go and relieve it in just such a healthy way. [00:08:11] Sandie Morgan: One of the things that I heard you all talking about at [00:08:16] one point in the conversations around breakfast and as we were on our way, was this idea of [00:08:26] omo. [00:08:27] the, and. [00:08:29] When you mentioned Delaney about the cultural context, I wonder, Dr. Brenda, if you could describe the culture [00:08:41] Guests: of, [00:08:42] Sandie Morgan: o, uh, Comida, and why that was important in a survivor informed context. [00:08:52] Guests: Yes, of course. So the Spanish word [00:08:54] acomedida refers to someone who’s helpful and considerate and eager to serve without being asked, and it’s a beautiful and culturally rich term that conveys humility. [00:09:08] An initiative and a servant heart and and it really represents qualities that are, I think, especially important when entering someone else’s space, like the home of the women that have, have experienced human trafficking in this context. And so I think it was important for us as a group when we enter this home, that we step into a posture of humility. [00:09:33] not as guests to be served, but as compassionate visitors that are willing to help and that we participate in the daily life. And things like cleaning, after, cleaning up, after meals, offering to help in the kitchen, or simply being attentive to the needs. That arise in that space and building connection through service and demonstrating respect and solidarity, through all the little, just small meaningful actions. [00:09:59] Yeah. Going off of that, it was really beautiful just to make friendships with these ladies. We got to see beautiful connections formed, and it’s almost as if you forgot. Not necessarily forgot, but their conditioned, but more so just loving on them and just taking care of them. But they also took care of us. [00:10:19] They taught us. Words in Spanish. And, they showed us different things that they’re passionate about and we just got to empower them and they empowered us. [00:10:31] So, just like Dr. Brenda said [00:10:34] is, um, a very. Spanish thing, at least in my culture and my Mexican culture.we have always learned to be flexible and just very caring for one another. I think it is a very important thing. for example, in my experience, I was able to translate for some of the girls who didn’t know much of Spanish. [00:10:55] Um, just being there and being very flexible and just teaching them or trying to speak with them. Being able to have a conversation with one another, or even if it was just like helping them out washing the dishes. I think I, I fall under that. I’m very flexible in being mm-hmm. [00:11:13] And one more thing on that. It was really a discipline to learn this acomedida because it wasn’t easy at first and I think we like tried and we really had to learn the culture behind it and how to. Be persistent with offering that help and making it known that we wanted to be a part of that, that it wasn’t a burden on us because we just have love for them and we want to make this action out of love. [00:11:37] Because I think that first day we were kind of like, oh, do you need help? And the women had been very clear even when they introduced. Does. They never want to admit if they need help and they won’t, especially if there’s guests, especially if there’s somebody they feel maybe they owe something to. They never want to ask for that help. [00:11:53] But making sure to use that specific language, I want to help, how can I help is so important. And understanding that really. Kind of grew that con cultural context and that relationship with all of us because we got to then have those experiences with them and let them know we wanted to be a part of them. [00:12:13] Sandie Morgan: I love that when, when we were having breakfast one morning, Dr. Brenda said to us that sometimes when you ask one of the women. Do you want this? They and you, you brought something, an art craft, something we were doing, they say no. it doesn’t actually mean no. And maybe you have to offer it three times before they say Oh, yes. [00:12:45] So, yeah, I love that. But. Alba. [00:12:51] Guests: I just wanted to go along with what Delaney was saying, that I was able to see acomedida One of the ladies was like, my house is your house. Like we were able to be. Already a family within knowing each other for a couple days. one example that I felt very much acomedida was in the kitchen. [00:13:08] I love being in the kitchen. Two of the ladies was showing me like how to make empanadas or just how they make their signature dish or dessert. And what I, as I was shredding chicken, she was like, okay, now it’s your turn to talk. Now it’s your turn to tell a story or your life. While some of us did the dishes or some of us was still cooking and just being able to. [00:13:30]Feel part of their, like their family felt so nice ’cause we didn’t know them at first. I, for one, was really shy and being able to connect with the food or the culture itself was really beautiful. [00:13:45] Sandie Morgan: So I observed my students in this space and they came literally with supplies and things to do with the women. [00:13:55] And then I observed. How that actually looked in real life. can somebody talk about what it felt like when they started offering to do things for you? [00:14:14] Guests: I for one, with one of the women. She was one of the loveliest there. Out of all of them were very lovely, but she was probably one of my favorites there that day. Um, we had finished, I, I believe it was eating lunch. And I just got very bored and I had a pen, and I’ve always loved to draw on myself. I’ve always loved Hena, and I just looked up a picture and I was just going to do Hena on myself, like with a pen and [00:14:45] [00:14:46] Guests: the [00:14:46] woman there, she decided, she said, oh, would you like me to do it for you? [00:14:52] And I said, yes. just ’cause, and maybe it was like something fun for her. I asked her if she’d like to draw, I think it was just something simple being able to connect, talk, and have conversations. I think after that they had asked if we wanted Hena. [00:15:05] Obviously with the permission of you guys, we, we were able to get Hena done and all of the girls. All of us got Hannah, and I think it was just a very good and nice experience just to let them do something they love and let them be just. In their zone being with you, doing something that they want to do. [00:15:28] And it was good because she would sit with one of us and she would have a separate conversation with each and every one of us. And it was just an amazing, amazing thing. [00:15:36] Sandie Morgan: And I loved standing behind her and looking at your faces because you were receiving genuinely. And she loved giving to you. I, I don’t know [00:15:54] Guests: where [00:15:54] Sandie Morgan: that fits Dr. [00:15:55] Brenda in trauma informed care, but I just, [00:16:01] she taught me how important it is for us to understand that receiving is, it’s an a humble act and it’s very fun to give, but [00:16:16] receiving from someone. Who has had so little, [00:16:20] That’s a lesson in humility. [00:16:24] Guests: I’m glad that you brought that experience up because I, I think there are a lot of trauma-informed principles that we can draw from. Even in this experience. I think it’s about leveling out the power dynamics. This is something that is a skill of hers that she’s able to share with you. [00:16:42] She’s able to use her creativity in that moment and give something to you and you’re able to receive. And I think that that puts her in a position of sharing and giving, and that’s empowering to her. And it creates a space of, of mutuality. Which I think can be very empowering and I saw lots of laughter and sharing and mutuality during that time, which was really fun to watch for both Dr. [00:17:10] Morgan and I. [00:17:11] Sandie Morgan: I [00:17:12] loved the laughter and it, the verse that says, laughter is good medicine. I thought about it at least 10 times a day because you guys brought so much laughter. [00:17:26] Guests: Going off of, what Ital was kind of talking about. [00:17:29] Bella Luzi: I had a experience with a few of the women. I speak English and only English, very little, Spanish, and I got to just have some moments with the women where I would be struggling with a word in Spanish and. [00:17:45] They would literally like look at me in the eyes and not let me move on to the next word until I said it perfectly in Spanish. [00:17:53] Guests: and I think, [00:17:54] Bella Luzi: and then that kind of like spiraled into us sitting down for like, like 30 minutes doing Spanish lessons where the, the woman would sit down and teach me sp, teach me Spanish. [00:18:05] and it was really cool to just see how empowering sh it was for her. To just feel like she’s so good at something and it was something so simple. but yeah, it was just really fun to be able to like, let her, just pour into me. And I honestly think like leaving that home, I was able to take away, like be filled up just so much more than I think, um, I was able to even give, like these women had so much to offer, just with [00:18:34] who they are. And, like that was enough to just be like, wow, these women are absolutely amazing. and so I just, I just feel like it was a really cool opportunity to have, like, have these women feel empowered. [00:18:47] Guests: Delaney, you led the Tree of Life Project and I watched as you were able to engage women to take that over and own it for themselves, what were the elements that the women owned. [00:19:08] Yeah. so the Tree of Life was Dr. Brenda’s idea, and it was something that we wanted to use to, include both art therapy and also empowerment to the women through writing down things that motivate them, things that inspire them on the leaves of the tree. [00:19:27] And then we used all of the women’s hand prints to make the roots of the tree. And then we had them. Write down things that made them feel rooted, things that they were grounded in, that give them this life that are their beginnings, that are their reasons for continuing this life. and we felt that that was really important for the women to recognize those things, the reasons to keep going, especially when we later had a psychologist come in and talk about how almost. [00:19:53] A a hundred percent of the women that they’ve worked with have had a suicidal attempt, have had a point in their life where they felt there was nothing to keep them going. to have these women recognize the things that do make life worth living and do root them and ground them, was so important for us, and we wanted them to see that as well. [00:20:14] And they did amazing. Everything that they came up with, everything that they brought to us was just so beautiful. And also just. Having a physical, Representation of that to look at, to look at, oh, I am strong. Oh, that is the reason I keep going. And that is the quote that means so much to me. Dr. [00:20:34] Brenda had an experience with one of the women who said that she really needed that, that those words that were said were from God, they were from her faith, and she needed them to keep her going because of the situation that she was in. And so that was just such a. Beautiful moment between them and, really helped me recognize how impactful art can be because, you know, everybody said like, we thought it was a silly little tree. [00:20:58] We didn’t have such high expectations for it. But now to know that they have that reminder, it definitely makes us feel very glad that we did that and glad that it helped them the way that it did. [00:21:12] Sandie Morgan: Ari, would you talk about your experience as you were Like an assistant to the women when they started making their vision boards, you were cutting out letters and pictures. [00:21:27] What was that like? [00:21:28] Guests: Yeah, I was just about to say that that project, the Vision board project kind of comes off of the tree project. the vision board project was mostly. T cutting out pictures and writing down motivational, quotes and phrases that they felt connected to, and it was a vision board of their dreams and their aspirations and things that just make them, them. [00:21:54] And. Something that was so beautiful was hearing their vision boards at the end, and they presented it to us and they shared their dreams of either making a spa or you know, going into cosmetology or building their own business or just simply going back to their home country and being with their family. [00:22:12] And so it was just beautiful and. Honestly made us all kind of be teary-eyed from seeing how much these women have grown and how much these women love, the things that they are passionate about. And it was beautiful to even see their fa, like their families on these vision boards and how much they have these roots of deeper meaning of what they do. [00:22:37] And so that was such a beautiful experience. [00:22:40] Sandie Morgan: We could talk about. That part of our trip for the next hour. And so I’m in a transition to more of the best practices that we learned about. One of the things that I love about bringing classes to fiat here in Madrid is the behind the scenes professionals, and I’d like to hear what you observed as best Practices, and maybe were you surprised at how many people are behind the scenes in supporting this program? [00:23:24] Guests: Well, coming here to Madrid and experience experiencing this with Fiat, I think I was not surprised at all with how many hands come together in order to make this work for the women, in order for these women to be in a safe space around it, surrounded with. Other women who either went through similar things. [00:23:49] I think it was just good to see that there’s so many people involved that just want to help them and want to be there with them along through their journey. ’cause they know that even after everyth everything that happened to them, there’s still such a bigger and greater thing waiting for them. And I think I was just, I was just, it was just something beautiful to be able to see that there’s just so many people who just care for these women. [00:24:16] it was shocking to see how many people, for me. Seeing how many people were a part of it. we were sitting down at dinner one night and just kind of counting all the women on our hands. And then we were thinking about, how many staff there are. And there’s almost an equivalent number of staff that there is of women, at the home thinking of the 24 hour care. [00:24:38] And just all of the little things that go into it. And today we had an opportunity to actually go to, the Fiat office and it was really cool just seeing, the different. The different avenues that there are, with the nonprofit and just all of the different jobs that are so necessary, and they’re all equally as important and they’re all, what, contribute to making this whole thing come together, the lawyers, down to the. [00:25:04] The communication part of it down to, even the receptionist at the office, like there were so many, little parts and they were all like such key players. Whether you’re working hands-on with the women or you’re in detection or you’re just taking phone calls, all of it, is so important and all of it is what just helps, like make everything possible. [00:25:27] We need like all that willingness [00:25:29] Sandie Morgan: when we were walking through and there were at least three staff members that their computer screens were covered with Excel spreadsheets. As they’re handling all the accounting, paying the bills, raising the money. providing the accountability for the grants and the donors. [00:25:52] And they’re important members of the team. And when we talk about how can you get involved in anti-trafficking, there is a place for every professional. So, okay. I, I’m moving on to my next question, which is actually for Dr. Brenda. I would like to know. You’ve had a little time. You’ve spent time with our students. [00:26:24] You flew here with them. They talked about their expectations and their excitement, and then you observed, and this is a group of women you’ve worked with for three years here in um, Fiat in Madrid, through your research and previous visits. So can you tell me who changed more? [00:26:52] Our students or the participants in the home? [00:26:57] Guests: Hmm. And that’s such a powerful question and I think one that we’ll continue to think about and reflect on, I think long after we leave Spain. [00:27:08] what I’ve witnessed is a kind of, I think, mutual transformation. Really, and one that can only happen when people come together with humility and openness. And, acomedidas as we talked about earlier, and really a, a willingness to serve. when I arrived, with our students, and we talked about acomedidas, [00:27:33] We’ve talked about this being a posture of the heart, and we talked about specific ways, and we talked about that they could do this, you know, that they could, they could show these actions. And we encouraged our students, to approach all of their experiences and their time at the home, not as guests, but as young women stepping into really a sacred space that we’ve been invited into. [00:27:56] And to be ready to learn, to be ready to listen. And to be ready to help wherever they can. And they really did.and they got up and they washed dishes and they helped cook and they asked questions and they really made themselves available. And in doing so, I think they didn’t just serve that. I think they also connected and they were. [00:28:19] Changed by the strength and the hospitality and the faith of the women in the home. I think they were inspired and I think this will have a lasting effect. And I think they saw up close really what, uh, resilience looks like.and at the same time, I think the women in the home were also touched by the students’ willingness to be present, to stand with. [00:28:41] I think that they felt the love in this group of students coming from so far away. And by the amount of respect that they showed and the joy and the laughter that was shared and that they were here, not to fix or to judge, but to honor their journey and, just to offer conversation and smiles and laughter. [00:29:04] And so maybe, you know, maybe not necessarily, one being changed more than the other about how, you know, being, I think being acomedidas, really created a space for both groups to be transformed side by side. And I think in the end, that’s what justice looks like, right? Not just lifting others up by, but walking with them in a shared humanity and allowing ourselves to be changed in that process together. [00:29:32] Sandie Morgan: At [00:29:33] the end, there was a big picnic. To celebrate a birthday, but it was also a celebration for the whole community. And we took a picture of our team and their team and no faces. You can’t tell who is who. And it was arms around each other. And it was for me a picture of, acomedida, And I’m gonna put it as the photo in the podcast, social media posts. [00:30:11] So you guys that are listening, look for that and you’ll see what I think, acomedida looks like. [00:30:21] now. [00:30:22] the part that is the most important, because you guys are taking this class for credit, we’re recording this on our last night in Madrid. What will you take with you now for your career? Do you, did it create more questions than answers? [00:30:44] What will you take with you? Who wants to go first? [00:30:50] Guests: I know for me, I think it’s. The strength, the power, the love that these women do. Their job, to me isn’t easy. I feel like I’d be sad hearing their stories and just the hearts that are aching. It makes me feel upset that there is nothing that we can do. We can only watch from afar, especially this one day with the detection team, just seeing so many women being able to like. [00:31:22] Accepting the help, but not being able to receive in that moment is just like, Ugh, I wish we can do more. So I know for me it’s, I really would love to do more of the detection part of helping these women, being able to give them the supplies that they need, give them the knowledge that they need, and just giving ’em to a safe place that they’re more than just their bodies. [00:31:45] They’re more than what they offer. They’re smart. They’re so intelligent, they’re. Talented, especially through women’s from the safe home. They’re so ugh. They’re so amazing, and it’s just sad to think about that they were taken advantage of for the wrong reasons and not for their talents. So, long story short, just being able to do more. [00:32:07] I think there is many things that I’m gonna take away from this trip. One of them being that I kind of talked about previously with the group is that this, this is happening in our neighborhoods. It’s not just happening in Madrid, it’s happening it our towns in our cities, and I live in Arizona and so. [00:32:28] I’ve seen things like this and I’ve never truly realized that this was human trafficking until now, and I think it’s really put a huge impact on me wanting to be a voice for these women who can’t speak for themselves and just educate more people on. What is happening in their neighborhoods is right next door. [00:32:51] And I think these women have taught me how to have strength and how to have courage in such hard situations. And they have taught me such, like a beautiful way of keep pushing through every, every circumstance. I think I’m taking away a dream with this. Um. And the trip has been a, I’ve been getting a lot of influences of, dreams and of hopes and aspirations, and these women have really taught me that and I’ve had so much struggle with accepting that I can have dreams and that I can have aspirations and seeing them be so. [00:33:34] Fearless and not having that fear to dream has really inspired me. And it just reminds me of one of the quotes that one of them wrote on Our Tree of Life, and it’s translated from Spanish so it doesn’t sound as good, but it basically says that the fear exists. But the important part is that your dreams are bigger than it and. [00:33:54] They have fear, they’ve been taken advantage of. They’ve had people who have, hurt them and who have made their dreams feel small and insignificant, but they still have hope. And so I now have been taught that it’s okay to dream. And this morning when we were discussing with Fiona. About some plans that they had had. [00:34:14] They brought up a hotel and I switched my major from socio or from business to sociology when I was a sophomore, but I was originally going in as a hospitality business major. And so I’ve kind of always had this dream of having a business, but it felt a little self-serving. And so now to know that. [00:34:34] Those dreams could still be true and I could still take on that position. But with so much purpose and with a purpose that means so much to me to be able to provide income to these business or to this non-profits and to be able to provide jobs to these women. There’s so many different things that encapsulates and it kind of felt like that last piece of the puzzle that I was missing from this trip when she brought that up. [00:34:58] And then, yeah, so I am taking away a dream. And I’m not sure what that looks like, but a quote that Dr. Morgan and I agreed and shared was that I don’t remember Dr. Martin Luther King’s. I have a planned speech, but we all remember his speech about his dream. [00:35:16] I think that I have a lot of takeaways from this, but no matter what career I end up going, what path God leads me to, I know that this will be one of the biggest impacts. I know that it will help me. For the greater good. I think it’ll definitely probably help me in my life now, being able to see if there’s somebody who is going through the same situation, something similar, even if it’s, it means being able to help them. [00:35:47] If it’s just with a little simple conversation and just being there, I think it would definitely help just being there and realizing that there are more people who, who are going through, through these things. Everyone has me crying. Um,even just already reflecting on this trip, I feel so changed. I feel like my life I have always kind of looked for, Purpose. And I really did find that with faith and, coming here on this trip, like Delaney was kind of saying like, puzzle pieces are coming together. And there’s just such a refreshing feeling I have of knowing and reminding myself like, I’m young, I’m only 19. [00:36:35] I have so much more to learn. This was just a glimpse. This was, this was just a glimpse of like, what, Of what we’re capable of doing, especially together with sisterhood. And, on the subway we were just discussing like how we each pulled a little bit of a different thing outta this trip. and how it’s just so special knowing that, knowing that we all have, We all have this hunger and we all have this pull towards a cause. A cause that is so great and it needs people who are passionate. ’cause it’s a hard thing. It’s a hard thing to listen to stories and, and, and they, they make you upset when you hear about ’em because they sound so unfair and you just like question humanity. [00:37:22] And. It sometimes was like, wow, this seems so hopeless, but you, this kind of thing needs women and it needs people who are so passionate about it. and so I just think that my passion, I found my passion and, yeah, now going back and, and having three more years of college, I’m just gonna start looking for ways that I can just start doing things. [00:37:47] Now, if that’s just educating, if that’s just conver in conversation, people are tossing around terms that are being inappropriately used, like it’s speaking up for the women and for the people who don’t have a voice. and yeah, there’s just so many little things, and I feel like we often overlook ’em, but it’s just. [00:38:07] I just feel like this was just such a special trip. I feel like this was just the beginning of such a special thing, and even looking right now at everyone here, I’m just so like happy and proud of everyone and grateful that God brought me here. [00:38:21] Sandie Morgan: I’m going to answer my own question. I don’t do that usually, but what I’m going to take with me is your faces, your passion, the Gen Z response to something I’ve been working on [00:38:42] for 30 years and the resilience. To keep showing up, keep raising the money to take a team, keep pressing forward in the face of higher education challenges because making this a study abroad trip with goals for knowledge and understanding so that you are able to process. [00:39:19] Best and pure and blameless. Like it says in Philippians, people hear me all the time. That is what we take back from this, and when I can’t climb the stairs anymore, I know that you will be climbing this hill and making a difference wherever you are. [00:39:46] Thank you for joining us for this special episode of the Ending Human Trafficking Podcast. We are so proud of our Vanguard students who stepped out of the classroom and into real world service, gaining a deeper understanding of what it means to fight human trafficking. [00:40:10] If you wanna learn more about our global partnerships, including Fiat in Spain, you’ll find links and resources in our show notes@endinghumantrafficking.org. And while you’re there, don’t forget to subscribe so you never miss an episode. You can also follow us on Instagram, Facebook, and LinkedIn to stay connected. [00:40:36] We’ll be back in two weeks.

Derek Marsh joins Dr. Sandie Morgan as the two discuss leveraging financial tools and intelligence as core investigative strategies to disrupt human trafficking operations and improve survivor restitution outcomes. DEREK MARSH Derek Marsh is the Associate Director of the Global Center for Women and Justice and a deputy chief with extensive law enforcement experience. He has been a frequent guest on the Ending Human Trafficking Podcast and led a recent roundtable discussion on following the money in human trafficking investigations. His background includes hands-on experience with trafficking investigations and a deep understanding of the collaborative approaches needed to combat these complex crimes. KEY POINTS * Financial intelligence serves as a core investigative tool that provides a clearer perspective of criminal organizations than traditional methods relying on confidential informants or victim testimony. * Sophisticated money laundering patterns include funnel accounts, structured cash deposits, and geographically patterned movements that help traffickers hide the origin and legitimacy of their funds. * Financial investigations can expose connections between what appear to be separate crimes, revealing larger criminal enterprises rather than isolated “mom and pop” operations. * Suspicious Activity Reports (SARs) generated by banks when they detect unusual deposit patterns provide valuable intelligence for law enforcement agencies investigating trafficking operations. * Advanced software tools like those from Valid8 Financial can visualize complex transaction flows and present financial data in comprehensible formats for courts, making cases stronger and easier to prosecute. * Geographic analysis of financial flows reveals high-risk corridors between certain countries that banks monitor for potential criminal activity, such as Nigeria to Italy or Philippines to Europe pathways. * Human trafficking investigations require multi-agency collaboration because finances cross jurisdictional boundaries as easily as phone calls or internet connections. * Public-private partnerships with banks, corporations, NGOs, and faith-based organizations create interlocking layers of expertise that strengthen investigations globally. * Financial tools enable law enforcement to seize assets and freeze accounts tied to trafficking operations, providing funds for survivor restitution that has historically been difficult to collect. * Using financial intelligence reduces the burden on survivors to testify in court by providing concrete evidence that doesn’t require victim testimony to prove criminal enterprise operations. * The approach transforms financial intelligence into justice by treating human trafficking fundamentally as a financial crime that exploits people for profit. * Training law enforcement on financial investigative techniques and providing AI-enhanced tools are essential since most officers lack accounting expertise needed for complex financial analysis. RESOURCES * Derek Marsh [https://www.gcwj.org/derek-marsh] * Valid8 Financial [https://www.valid8financial.com/] * Roundable Notes (coming soon) * 341 – Following the Money [https://endinghumantrafficking.org/341-following-the-money/] TRANSCRIPT [00:00:00] Sandie Morgan: Welcome to the Ending Human Trafficking Podcast. This is episode number 346, leveraging financial tools to disrupt human trafficking. I am very happy to be joined here in the studio by Global Center for Women and Justice Associate Director, deputy Chief Derek Marsh. [00:00:28] We have been working together for a very long time and he’s been a frequent guest here on the podcast, so I’m not going to include a bio, but you can go back to the website and learn more from his perspective. By just searching our episodes with the name Derek Marsh. So we’re gonna dive right into the financial aspects. [00:00:53] We recently interviewed David Tyree on following the money and we talked to, um, district attorney Ryann Jorban along the same lines. [00:01:05] Today we’re going to look at this from a broader perspective, after having had a round table on following the money here at Vanguard University led by Derek Marsh, and let’s just get some understanding of what the key strategies and insights are. [00:01:26] That we were able to glean from that round table, and that will lead us into some action steps. So welcome Derek. [00:01:45] Derek Marsh: Thanks for having me again, Sandie. [00:01:47] Sandie Morgan: So, who else was at the table? [00:01:50] Derek Marsh: Well, besides you and myself, David Tyree, our expert from the, retired DEA agent, but also working with Valid8 Financial. Now, we also had Ryann Jorban, who’s an A DEA with Los Angeles, District Attorney’s Office, but we were also lucky enough to have a couple professors from here at Vanguard University. [00:02:09] Professor Julius Angbor, who is a marketing and business expert, specifically in international business issues, focusing mostly in Africa and that region of the world. We also had assistant professor, Dr. Thomas Ropel, who was a retired FBI agent, who was able to focus on the collaborative strategies used by the federal agencies to work on human trafficking and exploitation types of investigations. [00:02:35] We were also lucky to have assistant director of the US Department of Labor Wage in our division, Paul Chang, who was one of our favorites we’ve had on before. Uh, and he was able to discuss specifics about labor trafficking, where we’re finding a lot of labor trafficking occurring and how that process occurs. [00:02:53] And we were also able to have, members, from Valid8 Financial actually show up and discuss their software and give us a demonstration to show how all these. incredible amounts of data that would take a regular person, you know, hours if not weeks, to put together their software is able to put together in a matter of minutes. [00:03:12] It was amazing. So, we had a good group of people who we could discuss this with. And, and finally, I don’t wanna lose this out obviously, but we had, Linh Tran, who is our task force administrator, In charge of the Orange County Human Trafficking Task Force has been for years, ever since even I was there. [00:03:30] So that’s like dating myself or dating her, I’m not sure which, and finally we had, of course, John Cotton Richmond, who, was gracious enough to spend some time with us. He was our, previous human trafficking, czar, maybe that’s the wrong word to use, but that’s, you know, our previous human trafficking, director for the United States and the State Department. [00:03:52] And he was also, actively participating in, in the discussion helping us understand, uh, federal perspectives and where we’re moving forward with financial investigations and the financial tools that can be used. [00:04:05] Sandie Morgan: And, and I think this round table demonstrated how broad the element of following the money as across our movement. [00:04:18] We’re looking at law enforcement, we’re looking at prosecutors, but there’s also this sense that the element of restitution is more attainable for better victim outcomes, and that’s what drove me. You all know my background in pediatric nursing, so a lot of this was foreign language for me. So while Derek and I break down an executive summary of what happened at that round table, I’m the one whoDoesn’t understand even what a forensic accountant does. [00:04:54]  So I’m gonna help stop him when it sounds a little too complicated so that I can put it into my normal context. Is that okay with you, Derek? [00:05:11] Derek Marsh: Perfectly okay. Frankly, I don’t wanna pretend I’m an accountant at heart either, but I, I do love the numbers and I, I love the fact that, uh, numbers don’t lie. That the reality is that they can hide things, hide people, hide locations, hide phone numbers. But when you get ahold of the accounts and you’re able to track those accounts and where money’s moving, it really gives you a crystal clear perspective of the [00:05:33] criminal organization that is running any kind of a human trafficking operation. [00:05:39] Sandie Morgan: So our first. Key strategy is built around the aspect of financial intelligence as a core investigative tool. And when I first started hearing the group around the table talk about financial intelligence, I kind of reduced it to my understanding of, oh, we need financial literacy. And then I began to see there was a huge world I had never explored, and that is an area of data that, we need to understand. [00:06:18] Can you unpack that for us? [00:06:20] Derek Marsh: I will try. Again, Um, still getting to know, some specifics about this, but lemme go back to a time when I was actually wearing uniform and we were doing investigations where we would run into these sex trafficking operations, labor trafficking organizations, and [00:06:36] we would look for money. We really couldn’t find that much of it. And we’re trying to figure out why is that? We know money’s a major, major motivator for this, and saving money’s great, but we know that they were also producing money and we just couldn’t seem to get a hold of it. Understanding that financial intelligence as a core investigative tool kind of flipped the switch for me. [00:06:54] As far as perspective with the idea is instead of looking at any organization is basically a financial, Method to which finances are moved. You know, places are supported, people are supported, people are charged. All of that became kind of, it almost felt like saying “duh”, because it was just so intrinsically basic that we’ve been relying so much on. [00:07:19] confidential informants or going on the web and trying to solicit, people to in initiate an investigation or maybe relying on past, victim survivors who could share with us what they thought was going on. Whereas if we were to go into these, financial records of these different organizations, we would’ve had a much cleaner perspective and been much less reliant on our victim survivors to provide evidence to substantiate these criminal organizations. [00:07:48] Sandie Morgan: So some of the patterns that you’re looking for, use terminology. That is new to me. “Funnel accounts”, “structured cash deposits”, “geographically patterned movements”. Can you break that down a little bit? [00:08:06] Derek Marsh: I will try, but it’s still, it’s still a little bit of Greek to me as well. The idea here is that you have certain accounts that roll over and are pushed forward to different, different locations. [00:08:17] So you might start at this bank and then have it a certain amount rolled over to the next account, then a following bank account. So you have to, there’s actually a trail that’s left, but the more they move it, the more difficult it is. To identify where the money initially came from and it, and its legitimacy also, you find that they move locations as well. [00:08:36] So maybe you start with a bank here in the United States of America, but then you’re at the Grand Caymans and maybe you’re in Switzerland next and maybe you’re wherever. And it keeps making circles coming back to where people are able to access it. So by the time you see the money or those people are able to access the money, It’s so deep into this, electronic transferring that anybody just looking at normal accounts would see transfers in and out, but they wouldn’t be able to follow the money from the point of origin where the trafficking occurred or where the money’s being, taken to the point where it’s actually being used to facilitate organizational goals and missions, which in this case are criminal. [00:09:16] So. These types of operational dynamics are important for us to understand how this organization is structured and also understands how extensive that organization may be. We, you know, we talk about mom and pop organizations versus criminal enterprises. Will the financials really support? Whether it something is really just a mom and pop organization, maybe just does one or two jumps in a financial stream and it stops, versus having criminal enterprises where it may, it may have 15, 20, 30 different stops at. [00:09:49] Different bank accounts may not even seem to be cross related to the bank account before or after, but then in essence are the way that they’re hiding this money, they’re funneling this money, they’re laundering this money basically, to make it more, seem more legitimate, so that the organization can use it to further their criminal enterprise. [00:10:07] Sandie Morgan: So that kind of financial investigation can actually expose those kind crimes that are connected and that we’re looking at them as separate crimes, but they’re really part of [00:10:22] a network, an enterprise is the language that you’re using. [00:10:26] Derek Marsh: Right. I, I look back at some of the things we, we found when we were doing our investigation, some of what we considered mom and pop organizations for sex trafficking and for labor trafficking. [00:10:36] And now having, again, Paul Chans insight into how these are, are run. Also, seeing how these financial insights can be provided. It makes me wonder if we were just being naive and shortsighted and not realizing that they, they all worked the same way, but they didn’t seem connected. But if we’d take the time, had the resources to follow the money, that I think we would’ve found that there were a lot more connections and a lot larger criminal enterprise than we initially suspected. [00:11:01] Sandie Morgan: And from my side of the perspective on victim services, victim, restitution, one of the things that happens when you start using finance as a core investigative tool is. [00:11:20] We can prove things without making a survivor testify in court, publicly facing her abuser. So there’s some intangible rewards, not just financial. [00:11:37] So I, I was thinking about the structured cash deposits that are part of what they follow and I remember someone talking at their table about how they avoid being detected by some of the alerts we have in accounts by depositing just under the limit before it rises to the level of investigation. [00:12:05] And our group talked about how the SAR can be part of our strategies. What is that? [00:12:15] Derek Marsh: So SAR stands for “suspicious activity reports” that banks are required to share with different agencies. If they find a singular deposit or a pattern of deposits they, they believe might be. Generated through criminal enterprise. [00:12:33] Now, how they determine that I’m gonna defer to David Tyree every day of the week. ’cause I mean, he’s the man when it comes to understanding that and articulating better. However, what these reports are do is they’re, they’re, they’re sent to various federal agencies, which can either act upon them or not act upon them. [00:12:51] The challenge is if they’re able to take those reports and able to go through the various deposits and movement of money sufficiently to be able to establish any kind of pattern or practice behavior. And obviously I think most, most people who don’t understand accounting, and I’m gonna have to raise my hand here and say I’m not an accountant. [00:13:13] I don’t even pretend to be one. Are gonna have a hard time looking at some of those numbers. ’cause my extent, my sense of understanding is like looking at my paycheck, sorry, looking at my paycheck and following it into my bank account and realize it got deposited there. I’m pumped. So these are way more complicated and way more intricate. [00:13:29] And as a result they were, that’s when David and our, our, our friends from Valid8 Financial, were able to. Demonstrate how their software is able just to take these sheets and sheets of papers and make sense out of it and connect the dots, where just looking at a document would prove nothing other than, yeah, I’m looking at a document. [00:13:48] It looks like an Excel spreadsheet that has no intrinsic meaning to me, and no way of connecting the dots. [00:13:54] Sandie Morgan: So visualizing those transaction flows instead of just, engaging in actual accounting, adding up the numbers is a different way of using financial intelligence in the investigation process. [00:14:16] And if you wanna go back and listen to our interview with David Tyree, it’s episode number 341. And frankly, I had to listen to it three times, so you might wanna set aside a little extra time because there’s a lot of, content in his explanation. And I think it’s important for us as local advocates, even though this seems like it’s way beyond, what the average person is going to be able to apply [00:14:51] It does give us an edge in asking questions and finding ways to get the right people with that expertise at our table in our courts and our, investigations. [00:15:08] Derek Marsh: Sandie, you mentioned courts, and I think it’s important we remember that the, the beauty of some of this investigative tools and these methods and this software is that it presents this data in a comprehensible format. So instead of an investigator testifying, “Hey, you may not see it, but I’m telling you it’s really there”, and everyone’s saying, well, that’s not quite good enough to prove evidentiary value, they’re able to create re. [00:15:32] Ports showing link analysis and other types of pictures and images that represent flows of money back and forth, who it’s going to, what accounts it’s coming to and from the amount that it’s coming to and from making it. Very easy for both prosecutors, defense attorneys, suspects, and our judges to have a better understanding of what’s being presented in court so they can decide if this really does substantiate the claim that these persons or individual is part of a criminal enterprise. [00:16:07] Sandie Morgan: So, I know that. With the kind of data that’s out there. Now, my family knows where I am most of the time. I’m assuming that probably my financial institution can figure out where I am depositing money from or withdrawing if I’m withdrawing from an ATM in another country. [00:16:32] And this aspect of investigation that is location centered seems to be able to add to our ability to corroborate a victim’s story in other elements in, in our investigation. Can you expand on that? [00:16:54] Derek Marsh: Sure. So I mean, and what, like you were saying, if some credit cards are generous, some are not so generous. You know, you can leave the country if you don’t notify your credit card, they’ll shut down any transaction occurs internationally. [00:17:05] But I get notifications every once in a while saying, “Hey, is this particular activity relevant to you? Did you actually charge this to your account?” And I think we’ve all experienced that to some degree. Technology’s kind of a world where the, the, the bank has an algorithm. They have a way that you usually spend your money and if something falls outside those parameters, they’re checking in on you. [00:17:26] They don’t wanna inherit that debt, especially if you’re gonna deny it. Well, that same thing works on the international level as well. The idea that there are certain streams, location to location of financial flow that have a high chance of being suspect of criminal activity. For instance, there’s a Nigeria, Italy, [00:17:46] pathway of funds that it makes, banks quiver in their, in their, in their vaults, if you will, to, to realize that maybe something isn’t all, all right in Denmark there, or maybe the Philippines to Europe. I mean, all of these, and there are multiple, many, many more of those, but I’m just throwing a couple off. [00:18:04] The idea being that certain location, two locations can potentially raise red flags. That there is potential criminal activity gone. Even if it’s the transactions, it may seem legitimate. Even if it’s going from a church to a church or it’s going from a gov apparent government organization to apparent government organization or a government organization to an NGO, they are able to look, they’re able to see those risk-based locations, risk-based, transactions, and they’re able to generate either those suspicious activity reports. [00:18:37] or they’re able to pay more attention to those to see if they need to generate an SARI to let law enforcement know there may be illicit crimes occurring. And these particular corridors are funneling locations are being used to facilitate that criminal enterprise. [00:18:57] Sandie Morgan: So that geographical piece leads me then into thinking about how some of our old paradigms for investigation that, have to do with, this is my territory. this, my investigation ends at the county line. [00:19:17] How do we overcome that by creating some way to collaborate across that kind of geographical, restriction? [00:19:28] Derek Marsh: I think from day one, we just have to accept that human trafficking cannot be done on an island. [00:19:35] You just cannot have one agency that is responsible for an entire case. I think I’ve told the story before where on the first trafficking investigation, we tried to try to do it independently. I was kind of arrogant. I felt like, Hey, we’ve done other investigations without outside help. I should be able to handle this internally. [00:19:53] And found out very quickly the complications involving victim witness assistance. the complications involved with having international, suspects involved, having international connections involved where they were transported from a foreign country here to the us. All of those things were way outside my capabilities handling. [00:20:12] So you have to collaborate, you have to have multiple agencies getting together to work this out. And now we’re finding that, And not really a surprise, but I think just something that just doesn’t normally hit in most investigations from a local or even a, a county based investigative team is we need to look at finances as being ultimately the most mobile thing out there. [00:20:33] I mean, think about it, our phones, cross state and country barriers. Without a blink, we, you know, I can call and we’ve done it. Now, we’ve done our travels, we’ve called home. No, no. It sounds like we’re next door. It is. No big deal. So same thing with finances. They get moved as quick as you can. Your internet connections are bouncing all over the world, you know, as they validate and go across different countries and different states and different, areas. [00:20:55] So it’s not surprising to find that we have to think if human trafficking is being a much more sophisticated financial network than we originally suspected. [00:21:07] Sandie Morgan: So, you know me, I’m not an athlete and I, I resist all of those sports analogies, but for me, when I started beginning to understand the conversation around that table about all that bouncing [00:21:23] It’s like we have to have our teams where we’re passing the ball between the players, the players in the uk, the players in Africa, those kinds of global models, And how do we do that when, It can’t all fit through governments because often the governments don’t have those kinds of connections. [00:21:52] Derek Marsh: Well, and that’s where you come with your public private partnerships. That’s when you’re looking at connecting businesses together that might be able to support or help validate what’s going on. [00:22:01] A bank is a business, if you wanna think of it that way. Yeah. Corporations, right? So, you wanna think of NGOs. ’cause here’s the thing. Not all NGOs just stay in one spot and they’re singular. We have international NGOs all over the place that we can connect with and move forward. We have faith-based organizations that are internationally, located. [00:22:20] So if you need help identifying people or providing resources, or even being able to host, you know, investigators when they go to these different locations, then they’re out there as well too. I think that there are a, a group there, there’s a large number of opportunities here where your private groups, your, especially your business partners, your corporations, can really contribute significantly and positively to not only providing, helping provide the tools that make these investigations so much more coherent and understandable to judges and prosecutors and to investigators, but also the idea that these public-private partnerships help build multiple groups of interlocking layers so that they leverage everyone’s expertise to create a greater whole than they would ever have individually. [00:23:15] Sandie Morgan: Wow. [00:23:17] It’s still a bit complicated. I may have to listen to this episode three times, but, I wanna come down to the reason I was at the table, the idea of survivor centered restitution and financial empowerment. How is this going to be more than just about catching the bad guys another way to capture somebody? [00:23:43] Derek Marsh: Well, Sandie, I share your frustration. [00:23:45] I know in California and just about every state in the United States, including our federal government, restitution is mandatory. Our victim survivors need to get money to compensate them, for them to start standing up on their own and re recompense them for what’s occurred to them. You can’t unwind and exploitation. [00:24:01] I’m not pretending that, but at least you could put, put them in a better financial position moving forward, so they can be, have a better chance for success. So when you’re using financial software to identify the account and identify the amounts of money, who the players are, the locations that there are, how they’re spending or not spending the money, this allows you to be able to do what cops love to do is seize things right? [00:24:24] And obviously legally we’re not just out there just to robber bear in the world. But the idea here is that if we’re able to find this money that historically has been so difficult and so ephemeral and difficult hold of, now we can find these bank accounts that are. Obviously facilitating the criminal enterprise, lock those monies down and then start using that money to pay restitution to our victim survivors based on whatever the amounts are that are reasonable and are mandated by whatever statute you’re following. [00:24:56] In addition to that, besides just having your victim. Victims be compensated, or survivors being compensated. This can, all, this money can also be put together to help, fund further investigations and to fund further victim services. So it, it works for everybody. It’s a win-win across the board. The criminal enterprise loses the money upon which it’s, it’s based, it’s gonna be disrupted if not dismantled the, [00:25:22] Victims are getting restitution. And maybe even if we’re, if we have, we’re able to find sufficient funds, maybe even get a little compensation for the time of during the investigation and for the victim services that are going to have been provided and will need to be provided moving forward. ’cause you know, our victims just don’t get better the minute they’re released from the are liberated from these situations. [00:25:43] And finally, it’s also something that we can do as far as making it clear for the courts. So that we can make sure that these people are held accountable. Maybe not just criminally, but also civilly and administratively as well. Paying fines to those agencies that have been, circumvented those rules that have been ignored so that we can help support other agencies out there and other, public-private partnerships, if you will, to move forward and sustain the effort that we’re trying to maintain. [00:26:15] Sandie Morgan: So let’s think through, if we want to call our listeners to action, what are some areas that deserve our attention? [00:26:26] We don’t know all the answers, but we are going to be seeking out experts to provide this kind of knowledge base on [00:26:35] the ending Human Trafficking podcast. So let’s talk about that. [00:26:39] Derek Marsh: Well, I think number one, and it sounds like, I think this is the answer just about everything we started, it was like training, training, training. [00:26:45] We have to get people to articulate better that I’m articulating to you now, but to to not only articulate, but understand the importance and significance of using financial tools and financial investigative techniques to supplement human trafficking investigations and show positive results. I think that’s number one. [00:27:04] Number two, you’ve gotta find ai, you know, artificial intelligence enhanced tools to help us do that work. Because the reality is there are many, many officers out in the field over a hundred thousand, right? But guess what? Not all of ’em are accountants. In fact, I would guess most of ’em are not. And I think that. [00:27:20] That’s why you need these tools to supplement the efforts and make them work well. The other thing we need to understand is there is cross border legal and data sharing frameworks. We need to understand, respect, and follow to make sure our investigations aren’t. usurped by evidentiary problems or by misunderstandings across borders so we can make sure that we hold everyone accountable and liberate the people who need to liberate as well. [00:27:48] And finally, we have to maintain, like we always do, our survivor victim-centered, trauma-informed approach across the board, enhance those restitutions that we are unfortunately not capable of enforcing all the time. Even though they may be levied against a group, they may not be able to afford it and they’re not able to afford it ’cause we can’t identify the financial [00:28:11] pathways and the accounts and all of the intricacies involved with the whole finance of these operations. But if we have this software, we’re able to freeze those accounts, you know, use those SAR effectively, then we’ll be able to recoup much more money. [00:28:27] Provide those needed services and they that can be paid for through the restitutions and help these people start in a much better place than square one with dime zero and having to rely and  continue to rely on other people to move forward in their lives. [00:28:45] Sandie Morgan: I think my favorite quote at the end of the round table regarding survivors [00:28:55] is that this kind of investigative tool translates financial intelligence into justice. [00:29:03] Wow. Um. Ultimately, human trafficking is a financial crime. Ambassador Richmond wanted to be at the table because that has been his mantra from the time he was a DOJ attorney all the way through his, service at the State Department, and so many people in this movement. Are beginning to grasp that this is not just a horrific human rights issue. [00:29:39] It’s not just about sexual exploitation. Even when we use the word exploitation, it implies a financial crime. So we need to up our game in having tools. To investigate the financial side of things. So we wanna call you to start doing your own digging, find out what tools are there, and look up our friends at [00:30:07] Valid8 Financial. Go online and read the executive summary. It has citations for many of the things we’ve talked about here. See a list of the people who are around the table. Find somebody in your area. Begin to develop partnerships and together we will start making financial intelligence a part of our understanding and a part of our toolkit in this battle to combat human trafficking. [00:30:41] Derek, thanks for showing up again. [00:30:43] Derek Marsh: Thanks for having me show up. I appreciate it. [00:30:45] Sandie Morgan: And if you are new to the Ending Human Trafficking Podcast, please go on over to the ending human trafficking website, subscribe and you’ll be notified when a new episode drops every two weeks. Find out what we’re doing. [00:31:06] follow our survivor voices, check out our resources, and come back in two weeks for the next episode.

Ryann Gerber Jorban joins Dr. Sandie Morgan to discuss how labor exploitation functions as a hidden form of modern-day slavery, and how community collaboration, empathy, and survivor-centered strategies are critical in addressing labor trafficking. RYANN GERBER JORBAN Ryann Gerber Jorban is a seasoned prosecutor with the Los Angeles County District Attorney’s Office, where she has served since 1998. With a background in sociology from UC Riverside and a law degree from the University of Michigan, she has devoted her career to seeking justice for vulnerable communities, including children, the elderly, and survivors of abuse and human trafficking. In her role as Deputy in Charge, she leads both the Economic Justice and Labor Justice Units, focusing on wage theft, labor exploitation, and fraud. Ryann is nationally recognized for her survivor-centered approach, combining legal expertise with a deep commitment to collaboration, trust building, and meeting survivors’ foundational needs. She was also a featured speaker at the 2025 Ensure Justice Conference, where she shared her insights on labor trafficking and the exploitation of children. KEY POINTS * Ryann Gerber Jorban describes labor exploitation as a spectrum, with wage theft on one end and labor trafficking on the other, highlighting how quickly one can escalate into the other. * Her role involves leading efforts to address wage theft and labor fraud, particularly in sectors vulnerable to exploitation such as construction, restaurants, and healthcare. * Labor trafficking often relies on coercion rather than force, such as threats of deportation or withholding pay, to control vulnerable workers. * She explains that being paid less than minimum wage does not disqualify a situation from being trafficking—it’s about how a person is controlled or coerced. * In a case involving garment workers, individuals were found working 55 hours a week for just $5–$6 an hour, illustrating severe labor violations. * She emphasizes building legal cases without placing the burden on the victim, allowing survivors time to stabilize before contributing to legal proceedings. * Ryann integrates Maslow’s hierarchy of needs into her legal strategy, ensuring victims have basic needs met before asking them to participate in investigations. * She highlights the role of community-based organizations in providing culturally competent care and case management for victims. * The importance of collaboration across law enforcement, nonprofits, faith communities, and local agencies is key to supporting survivors and combating labor trafficking. * Consumers have a role to play by asking ethical questions and avoiding businesses with exploitative labor practices. * Disasters create heightened risks for labor exploitation, and vigilance is needed during rebuilding efforts to ensure ethical labor is used. * Faith communities are uniquely positioned to help identify signs of exploitation and educate their congregations in simple, practical ways. RESOURCES * Ryann Gerber Jorban on LinkedIn [https://www.linkedin.com/in/ryannjorban/] * Ensure Justice Conference 2025 – Ryann’s Presentation [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cOl-auvyWNw] TRANSCRIPT [00:00:00] Welcome to the Ending Human Trafficking Podcast here at Vanguard University’s Global Center for Women. Justice in Orange County, California. My name is Dr. Sandie Morgan and this is the show where we empower you to study the issues, be a voice. Make a difference in ending human trafficking. [00:00:22] Today I am joined by Ryann Gerber Jorban, a seasoned prosecutor with the Los Angeles County District Attorney’s Office. She has served there since 1998. With a background in sociology from uc, Riverside, and a law degree from the University of Michigan, she has devoted her career to seeking justice for vulnerable communities, including children, the elderly survivors of abuse. [00:00:54] Human trafficking victims in her role as deputy in charge. She leads both the economic justice and labor justice units focusing on wage theft. Labor exploitation and fraud. Ryann is nationally recognized for her survivor-centered approach, combining legal expertise with a deep commitment to collaboration, trust building, and meeting survivors foundational needs. We were honored to have Ryann join us as a speaker at this year’s. Ensure Justice Conference 2025. She shared her insight on labor trafficking and the exploitation of children. [00:01:39] Well, welcome to the ending Human Trafficking podcast, Ryann Gerber Jor. What is it like to be deputy in charge? [00:01:49] Ryann Gerber Jorban: it’s basically the same as being a deputy district attorney, but with more work. [00:01:54] Sandie Morgan: More work. Oh, I thought it would be more fun because you’d have more power. I liked the in charge part of your title. [00:02:01] Ryann Gerber Jorban: the in charge part is nice. It’s very funny. In our office, deputy in charge is actually the lowest level of management. I think they give us that in charge part. So, we feel power even though we have very little. But, I. I will say it is the fun always feels bad when you’re talking about, crime and victims, but it is the most fun I have ever had in my career. [00:02:24] it’s fulfilling. It’s exciting. It’s a little crazy, but it’s definitely the best job I’ve had so far in the DA’s office and I’ve loved all 26 years of my life in the DA’s office. So that’s saying a lot. [00:02:37] Sandie Morgan: Oh, I love that. And for our listeners, she is smiling while she’s saying that, and I’ve known Ryann for a while now and her smile is very authentic. And Ryann, your deputy in charge, full title is Economic Justice and Labor Justice Units. So explain why that is such a fun job. Yeah. [00:03:00] Ryann Gerber Jorban: Yeah, so I’m part of, um, so I work for LA County District Attorney’s office, part of our consumer protection Division. It’s the bigger division and we protect consumers from all kinds of levels of fraud. And, back in, 2017, uh. Jackie Lacey, who was the DA at the time, and a wonderful human being. she, started the, what we called at the time, the Notario Fraud Unit, and we now call it the Economic Justice Unit because it’s more expansive in what we cover, but it was basically protecting vulnerable communities from fraud that is. [00:03:38] Pointed at them because of their vulnerabilities. Their vulnerabilities make them, much more likely to be victimized, than other people. And, I got to be the first, da. I had a boss and then it was me. I was the first trial lawyer in there. And it was the, it was amazing.I’ve worked with vulnerable victims as a sex crimes and domestic violence and child abuse prosecutor for most of my career. [00:04:01] And so this was a natural. Shift and no one was really helping these people in the same way that we were, and I was really proud of that. [00:04:08] Sandie Morgan: I love that. So that’s a good way to segue, into where our conversation is gonna go today. [00:04:16] You’ve called labor exploitation, a form of modern day slavery. Can you unpack what that means in your work and why the public should even care? [00:04:29] Ryann Gerber Jorban: So we tend to get, very focused on the word trafficking. And Sandie, you’ve heard me say this, like ad naum, trafficking’s important trafficking. Is a powerful way to move our messaging. But what we have to understand is labor exploitation is a spectrum, and on one end is trafficking. On the first end is not being paid what you’re owed, but it’s, even though it’s a spectrum, it’s very short journey from one to the other. [00:04:56] and so when I say labor exploitation, we don’t treat workers and give them their rights and protect them. In the workplace, we are treating them as less than human. And no one deserves to be treated as less than human. I don’t care what you’ve done. everything we read from the Constitution to the Bible to philosopher says, how we treat the least of us is what we will be measured by. [00:05:22] And so I truly believe that. So, The, the labor exploitation, leads us to dehumanize those who work and those who work are why we exist. So, that’s my little philosophical part of that. but the bigger part is labor exploitation’s a crime and you’re stealing from people. I don’t like that. I, I’m, I’m not a big fan of that. [00:05:45] Sandie Morgan: All right. So I love how you pulled in the moral aspect, and I hope that your words and the knowledge in what we’re learning today about this will help our listeners and generally our public to be able to identify why they care about labor trafficking. Because as you and I have talked about, sex trafficking gets a. Lot more of the attention and it deserves attention. But labor trafficking deserves the same level of attention, and we can do a better job reporting and being eyes and ears in our community. [00:06:31] So let’s talk about wage. These sound like kind of boring things. Again, [00:06:38] labor trafficking doesn’t have all of the sexy conversation, that we sometimes come to expect in the human trafficking conversations. [00:06:50] So let’s talk about how do wage theft and force labor show up in Los Angeles County, and then we’ll move into what can we do to better identify those crimes? [00:07:06] Ryann Gerber Jorban: So, there’s certain. Areas that are ripe for wage theft and, and forced labor. they tend to be lower paid. They tend to need a lot of workers. They tend to have, a lot of, movement across workers, and especially in LA County or Southern California. They’re going to be primarily filled. [00:07:29] Not primarily, but very largely filled by people who are either undocumented or undocumented. So their power is very low, right? and their need is very high. And when you have high need and low power, you are extremely vulnerable to being mistreated, and In LA County, we see a lot of that, of course in construction, car washes,restaurants, healthcare,these are areas where we really can have a huge. [00:08:03] Problem that no one sees, right? Because you go into a illicit massage business, you’re gonna see what’s going on. You go into a restaurant, you’re not necessarily gonna see that the dishwasher’s not being paid more than $5 an hour, and that dishwasher doesn’t have a choice, right? He can’t get a job ’cause he’s here undocumented. [00:08:24] He has a family back either back in his home country or here that he has to. [00:08:31] He, is at the absolute power of his employer who can fire him, who can choose to pay him or not pay him that day, and who can threaten to have him deported if he is not happy with him. [00:08:46] Sandie Morgan: Wow. All of that sounds like the definition of coercion. [00:08:50] [00:08:50] Ryann Gerber Jorban: There’s two definitions that work. We see a lot of debt bondage, which is where somebody says, you owe me this money and you have to work for me till you pay it off, or, I owe you this money and I’m not going to give it to you until X date occurs and you have to continue to work for me Until then, so it’s. [00:09:09] I’ll gladly have you work today, but I’ll pay you next Tuesday. [00:09:12] Sandie Morgan: Hmm. [00:09:13] So let me ask this because you’re talking about, [00:09:16] $5 an hour, and the minimum wage here in California right now is $16 an hour, [00:09:24] Ryann Gerber Jorban: so we have a case that we just settled that was a garment worker case, and the garment workers were working 55 hours a week and be making, roughly five to $6 an hour. [00:09:36] Sandie Morgan: Wow. So here’s the question people ask me in general community settings. So if they’re getting paid, then I can’t report it as human trafficking, even if it’s not at minimum wage. So what’s that gray area? Does the fact that they are getting paid $5 an hour eliminate a trafficking case? [00:10:04] Ryann Gerber Jorban: Not at all. So what you’re being paid actually is less, of an issue as to how you are being controlled. So labor, forced labor trafficking is the somebody having to work based on force fear or coercion force is what we tend to think of traditionally, right? They’re in [00:10:29] Sandie Morgan: White van kidnapped. [00:10:32] Ryann Gerber Jorban: Yeah. and, and we have that same mindset with sex trafficking too, by the way. [00:10:36] I’ve done sex trafficking, so I’m real familiar with both ends of that spectrum. But, we’re not talking about chained up people at the side of the road. Okay. Or in a field being beaten. So force is there. There’s lots of violence. There’s guns, there’s threats, there’s, I have, I have one case right now where they threatened to murder them, but that is not the primary driver here. [00:11:01] The primary is gonna be the fear. I’m going to call ice. I’m gonna have your children taken away by DCFS. I know someone in the mafia or in the organized crime who’s going to do something to you. or, your family back home will pay for this. So that’s the fear. And then the coercion is controlling them somehow, keeping their visas, keeping their documents. [00:11:30] Holding onto their pay, saying to agricultural workers. We see this a lot in ag. Um,I’ll pay you when the, when the, when the, the harvest is done. So these people are working 6, 8, 10 weeks, but they’re not getting paid till the end of that time [00:11:49] and [00:11:49] they can’t leave if they walk away from that work. [00:11:53] They’re not gonna get what they’re already owed. and of course by the time you get to the end of that, they don’t have a lot of power to get that money back ’cause they can’t take the work back, right? So they take whatever they can get. So coercion, controlling them and, exploiting their vulnerabilities and their desperate need, is what keeps people enforced labor. [00:12:18] And it’s that imbalance of power that creates an opportunity for someone to exploit or abuse another person. And we see that across the spectrum in family violence, in child abuse. In, worker complaints, but here it is significantly amplified by the extreme vulnerability. When we’re talking about children who are in this space, kids who have been rescued from labor trafficking often are unaccompanied refugee minors. or the children of undocumented, or as you say, not fully documented, parents. Can you use some of the elements of the case you worked on with the Guatemalan youth to give us a little better understanding there? [00:13:21] Yeah, we were involved, uh, tangentially in that case, but I’m very aware of it. I helped, I, I actually spoke to them about kind of what their rights were and things and, so. Chicken processing plants in LA County. There’s a large number of them who knew [00:13:39] Sandie Morgan: I know. It was a big surprise for me [00:13:41] too. [00:13:42] Ryann Gerber Jorban: And, for whatever reason we see across the country in meat and chicken processing and egg processing, a large number of Guatemalan. [00:13:52] migrants who are working in those areas, and there’s often a lot of labor trafficking. And that’s a, maybe we could talk about that topic another time about why, but, the, here in LA County we had that, we had a case that was handled by the Department of Labor Wage and Hour Division. And when they went in, they found, migrant teens. [00:14:16] I believe the age range was 14 to 17. working in this chicken processing plant cleaning. Cutting chicken into pieces, things like this. And all of these kids have been brought up here as unaccompanied minors.and if you think about the vulnerabilities of an adult. [00:14:34] Then you add that to being a 15-year-old kiddo who thinks that, who not only thinks, but is truly their family’s only hope back in Guatemala. [00:14:44] So, you know, they screw up here. Their family in Guatemala loses their land at best, loses their lives at worst. Right? And my 15-year-old can barely wipe down the counters. Don’t tell her I said that. We won’t let her hear this part, you know, and, [00:15:02] And, if I threaten her, with losing her ability to go out on the weekend, that works really well. [00:15:08] I can’t imagine what these kids feel. I can’t imagine the terror and pressure they feel. [00:15:15] Sandie Morgan: So that’s a great segue into one of the things that I love about you, because you can imagine, and, and I think we could define that capacity to imagine that trauma, that pain as empathy that really marks your leadership with a victim centered approach. So.my first question about how you put survivors first as you build a case around human needs, I’ve heard you speak about Maslow’s hierarchy of needs [00:15:53] in relation to the victims. so how does that actually shape your legal strategy? [00:16:02] Ryann Gerber Jorban: Yeah. So, you know, Maslow’s Triangle is the idea that we have to have certain base needs met in a, in progression before we can get to a higher level of. Ability to work in the world, right? So if you don’t know where you’re going to eat, what you’re going to eat that night, or as a mom, I always go back to my kids. [00:16:24] If my, I don’t know how I’m feeding my kids that night, I’m not really gonna care about self-esteem. Like, like it’s not gonna be high on my level ’cause I have these basic needs. So when I’m building a legal case, I need to recognize that the people who are being mistreated. Are just trying to survive at these lower levels of Maslow’s Triangle, and I don’t have that experience. [00:16:47] I am blessed. I don’t know what that feels like. and so I need to be sure that I’m, keeping that in mind. So when I build a case, what I try to do is build the case without the victim or our, our person who’s being, mistreated to carry the case. [00:17:08] Are not my primary witness. My primary witness is gonna be other things that I can prove without their participation or with minimal participation. [00:17:17] So not did they abuse you, but did you get to have a lunch break? I can build a case on the failure to pay someone for their lunch break. Break, and then once they are. Once we file that case and we’re doing well with it, and they get stabilized. They get case management and services and a, a job and immigration services, and they now know where they’re going to eat. [00:17:43] They have a safe place to live. Their kids are safe now they are high enough on Maslow’s to help me. With a much more serious case. So my belief is we try the case we have in front of us, we don’t put it on the shoulder of our victims. And then as we give our victims the support and stabilization they need through our partners in the nonprofit world, then we utilize their strength to build a a, a more serious case if possible. [00:18:11] Sandie Morgan: So using this legal strategy, how effective has that been in For me, the real justice part of this is more focused on. How the victims, receive restitution. I know it’s good to put the bad guys in prison, but, how effective has this strategy been in that respect, because that is a survivor first focus. [00:18:41] Ryann Gerber Jorban: Yeah. So when we, are doing these cases, our primary interest is getting our, survivors. Two things when we first come into contact with them. you know, best practice and we’re still working on this. I am a work in progress, Lord knows, um, literally, Is making sure that we are working with our nonprofit partners who work with these communities. [00:19:03] I am, can’t tell ’cause voice, but I am a white, middle class suburban mom who literally drives a minivan and used to go to soccer games. Now I go to band. I am a band mom, right? I do not have the cultural knowledge of other communities outside of mine. None of us do. We know our culture. So for our own cultural intelligence, which is a thing, we have to utilize people who have that cultural intelligence to assist us. [00:19:32] it is arrogance and hubris to think that we can understand somebody else’s culture well enough to. give them what they need culturally and supportively. But by going to a community organization, I love working with the Thai Community Development Center. ’cause even though Thai is in their name,they understand this and they have people from all different cultures who can help the subsets of people. [00:19:56] They help. [00:19:57] Sandie Morgan: The Thai CDC, helps stabilize provide case management and provide legal structure for our victims, and that allows us to, move them up Maslow’s Triangle in a culturally appropriate way. When we try to do that without the cultural appropriation, it’s not gonna work. But when we do that, we are putting them first in their needs first. [00:20:22] Ryann Gerber Jorban: And I think I got off topic. [00:20:24] Sandie Morgan: No, you’re good. You’re good. And, [00:20:26] Ryann I’ve heard you use this phrase before and to kinda sum up this, putting survivors first part of our conversation, you said you want to build a case with a survivor instead of around them. what does that look like in real life? [00:20:49] Ryann Gerber Jorban: Slight, [00:20:50] tangent. You know, we talk a lot about the words victim, survivor, rescue, all of these things. We’re not the center of these cases. It, it’s not what we need. We should be focusing on in these cases, it’s what the person who went through it needs that we should be focusing on. And so when I say with, I need to meet the survivor where they are, I cannot force them to meet the me where I need them to be. [00:21:17] That’s just unrealistic and that’s why we can’t do a lot of these cases. So if where they are is they can’t help me. That’s absolutely fair. they owe me nothing. and so, understanding where they are from and having empathy for where they are and making sure that they have the support they need, is my primary goal. [00:21:38] So when we settle these cases, or when we prosecute these cases, our number one interest is what can we do if our victims are not able to help us? Okay? Because that doesn’t mean the person should get to walk just because they picked particularly vulnerable people. Okay? In fact, the opposite second. What can we do? [00:22:01] What can we provide? Who can we partner with to make sure that our victims are supported and that this bad thing that happened to them turns into their opportunity to have a better life? [00:22:13] Sandie Morgan: That’s so good and such a great segue to the [00:22:17] next aspect. [00:22:18] I wanna [00:22:19] talk about the collaboration and community trust that, and you’ve already started that a little bit with Thai CDC, but beyond just that, who else do you need in order to help, especially these foreign national victims, unaccompanied refugee minors? what part of the community needs to be at the table? [00:22:46] Ryann Gerber Jorban: Wow. That’s a big question, Sandie. I mean, it, it’s really broad, right? We need, we need law enforcement. I mean, we often hear from. Certain settings, law enforcement’s the enemy. No. An educated, trained law enforcement is actually a great resource because they see what people are going through on the street. [00:23:05] Very few of us do, right? So we need law enforcement, we need government agencies. here in LA County we have the Office of Grant Affairs. It’s a great agency that pulls from different parts of LA County government to provide what immigrants need to thrive in our community. When you have a. Third of your community being immigrants, you can’t just say, we’re not going to pay attention to them, right? [00:23:27] You need nonprofits like, TCDC, but also like, day laborers, uh, Lon, the National Day Laborers Association. You need unions that provide people a upwardly mobile and protected workplace. You need, um, churches. You need synagogues, you need, mosques, all of who provide, especially in the thing strings, no strings attached. [00:23:54] No expectation of what that person will give back support to their community, especially culturally. Community needs,embassies are great resources because of course they know who their people are. Everybody has a role in this. everyone can can help if for no other reason than demanding that workers are paid fairly. [00:24:19] So if you see, if you go into a place and the workers don’t seem to be being treated fairly, turn around and walk out. [00:24:26] Sandie Morgan: vote with your feet. [00:24:28] Ryann Gerber Jorban: Absolutely. I found out the restaurant that we used to go to for brunch most Sundays with our kids, I found out they had had a huge labor issue. They had threatened their workers. They, they were fined a half a million dollars. [00:24:42] they did all these cheating. We haven’t gone back. It’s very easy. I still don’t have a good waffle place, but it’s still very easy. [00:24:50] Sandie Morgan: Oh, that’s, that’s good. [00:24:52] That’s good. So when I’m out in the community and I want to [00:24:58] do a better job of, for instance, our faith communities, you mentioned mosques and synagogues and churches. What is the kind of information we can give them? I had this conversation yesterday with someone with some influence in their faith community. [00:25:18] It’s like, but what do I tell them? I mean, your class is eight weeks long they want like an eight minute version. [00:25:27] Ryann Gerber Jorban: Right. You know, I think part of it is treatment. If people are being treated well in a business, when you walk in, if the employees are being treated respectfully, if management is standing up for the employees, if you see management coming up and saying it’s your break time, I mean it, it sounds really silly. [00:25:46] But you know, we have people who work, who report to us working 12, 16, 16 hours and no breaks. Like somebody noticed that. Okay. So that’s part of it. Just we know what kindness versus niceness looks like. Nice is what they show to the customer. Kindness is what they show to their employees, right? [00:26:06] So kindness.so there’s that. one of the issues I’m facing is I’m, I’m heading two task forces, around the fires. One, the, I call them the Rebuild LA task forces. [00:26:17] One of them is for building fraud. But the other one is for labor exploitation because we know that laborers in disaster areas are, there’s up to a 70% chance that they will be, exploited for their work and a 30% chance that they will be, uh, that there’s trafficking involved. Okay? So that’s huge. If you are getting a contract done on your house and somebody comes in with a much lower bid than everybody else, you gotta ask yourself why? [00:26:46] Because. The wood is gonna be the same for everybody. the nails are gonna be the same for everybody. What is the variable? The variable’s gonna be the workers, and so you can ask them, can I see your workman’s comp certificate? Can you know? How do you pay your people? You know what? What is the pay rate you give your workers or your subcontractors, or what do you require from them? [00:27:10] We may pay more. Upfront, but that’s where we get back to the moral thing. We know that our houses aren’t built on the back of somebody who has been mistreated. [00:27:21] Sandie Morgan: That is a great. Way to approach this understanding that it’s actually does come back on us as consumers to ask those questions. We do have responsibility in the story to be wise stewards of of our resources. I often go back to when I first started working in this space and someone explained to me the reason why they were buying a product that I proved to them was being produced by slave labor. [00:27:58] I. In another country and they said to me, well, we have a very small budget and I’m trying to practice good stewardship. And my response was, is it good stewardship if we save money, buta parent in really dire circumstances, can’t afford to buy the books for his son to go to school or the shoes for his daughter to walk the mile to school. It’s better stewardship to invest in people rather than things. So I [00:28:38] Ryann Gerber Jorban: that. [00:28:39] Sandie Morgan: Um, if we could go on and on and we will have another conversation. I am sure. I love being part of the labor trafficking subcommittee. I often feel like I have nothing to contribute because I’m not law enforcement, I’m not an attorney. [00:28:56] And yet at the same time, what you are talking about in these closing moments of today’s episode. Is how important a community is around people and we can all do something there. [00:29:12] Ryann Gerber Jorban: Absolutely. And I, I, I have to disagree with your general premise that you do not add. Um, you are bringing in. Students who think that they want one thing and are learning that what they are experiencing in the world is very different from what other kids their ages are experiencing. And I, I suspect that if I know you, you do it very subtly. [00:29:35] You don’t hit ’em over the head with it, you just let them see. What the realities are. And I, I, I’m guessing that your students at the beginning and at the end have very different viewpoints of what they are experiencing. And it’s so important, especially when we’re talking about justice programs. When we talk about criminal justice, we tend to focus on the criminal, and not the justice. [00:29:59] And the justice isn’t just for the criminal. In fact, it shouldn’t be. It should be for the entire community. We should find just. Outcomes for those who are involved, whether they are the criminal ’cause. I am a big believer in the Constitution and, and all of the, and them having their full rights and again, respect even for what they have done wrong, but also justice for those who have been caught in this and have no choice. [00:30:27] whether it’s through, forced criminality or being a victim of,you know, a criminal, we need to make sure that we recognize that there’s two sides to that phrase, and I think you do an excellent job of showing both sides of that, that the criminal needs to have their justice, but also the victim does as well. [00:30:50] And we can do both of those very easily in our system. [00:30:53] Sandie Morgan: And we can do it together. Thank you so much, Ryann, for being on our podcast today. Oh. [00:30:59] Ryann Gerber Jorban: Oh, I loved it. Thank you for having me. [00:31:02] Thank you so much, Ryann, for sharing your insights and expertise with us. Listeners, if you’re interested in hearing more from Ryann, including her impactful presentation at Ensure Justice, we included the YouTube link in the show notes@endinghumantrafficking.org. [00:31:24] If you haven’t visited our site before, be sure to subscribe so you can stay up to date. With all the important information we share, we’d also love your help in growing this podcast. If you know someone who would benefit from today’s conversation, invite them to subscribe and join us in learning how to. [00:31:47] Better protect our communities. You can also connect with us on Facebook, Instagram, and LinkedIn to stay up to date. Thanks for listening. I’ll be back in two weeks.