43. Jarko de Witte van Leeuwen (Gay & Christian in The Netherlands) – A Journey Back to Church Through Love, Marriage & Hope

43. Jarko de Witte van Leeuwen (Gay & Christian in The Netherlands) – A Journey Back to Church Through Love, Marriage & Hope

43. Jarko de Witte van Leeuwen (Gay & Christian in The Netherlands) – A Journey Back to Church Through Love, Marriage & Hope Alexis sits down with Jarko de Witte van Leeuwen, Dutch LGBTQ+ advocate and founder of The Growing Wall of Love, for a moving conversation about growing up gay in a conservative Christian environment, surviving years of bullying, finding lifelong love, and discovering that losing trust in the church doesn't have to mean losing God. Jarko shares his extraordinary journey from Belgium to the Netherlands, meeting his husband Jos, becoming one of the first same-sex couples married after marriage equality became law in the first country to legalize same-sex marriage, and the pastor whose simple act of blessing their wedding became the beginning of healing after years of church hurt. Together, Alexis and Jarko explore what Christians around the world can learn from one another, why affirming Christians exist in every denomination, and how crossing cultures, languages, and traditions can deepen our faith, expand our empathy, and reveal a much bigger picture of the global Church. 💬 **In This Episode** • Growing up gay in a conservative Christian environment • Bullying, shame, and discovering God's unconditional love • A remarkable love story spanning Belgium and the Netherlands • Marriage equality in the Netherlands and becoming one of the first same-sex married couples • Finding faith again after church hurt • Why affirming Christians exist in every denomination • Raising children as a same-sex Christian couple • The difference between welcoming and affirming churches • Advice for pastors seeking to create safer, more inclusive churches • The Growing Wall of Love and World Pride Amsterdam 👥 **People/Resources Mentioned** • Jarko de Witte van Leeuwen: @jarko_de_witte_van_leeuwen • The Growing Wall of Love: @thegrowingwalloflove • Rocky Roggio / *1946: The Mistranslation That Shifted Culture*: @rockyroggio • @1946themovie • Rev. Dr. Chris Davies: @revdrchrisdavies • Project Proclaim: @project_proclaim • Southern New England Conference UCC: @sneucc  ⁨@uccvideos⁩ [https://studio.youtube.com/channel/UCNHiM8rZs0qsluznI0XV9ag]  • Westerkerk Amsterdam: @westerkerkamsterdam • WorldPride Amsterdam 2026: @worldpride2026 #Christianity #ProgressiveChristianity #LGBTQChristianity #GayChristian #ChurchHurt #Deconstruction #Reconstruction #TheNetherlands #WorldPride #1946TheMovie #OpenAndAffirming #Faith #TheSacredSlope Support the show [https://www.buzzsprout.com/2471756/support] About The Sacred Slope Where the slippery slope becomes sacred ground. For the spiritually tender—raised in or rooted in Christianity. Come explore our global, diverse, inclusive Christian faith, deconstruction, and spiritual identity in a rapidly changing world. Through conversations with clergy, scholars, and cultural voices, the show creates space for people navigating faith after certainty, church harm, or political co-option of religion. 🎧 WATCH: YouTube / Spotify      LISTEN: Apple Podcasts + everywhere      FOLLOW: @thesacredslope (IG, FB, Threads, TikTok, YouTube, Bluesky) 🔗 Connect 🎧 Explore episodes & community: linktr.ee/TheSacredSlope [https://linktr.ee/TheSacredSlope?utm_source=chatgpt.com] 🎙 Hosted by Alexis Rice 🎵 Music by Brett Rutledge, Eddie Irvin & Sean Spence 📬 Nominate a guest: alexis@thesacredslope.com 🌿 Community Guidelines 🌿 Fruit of the Spirit:  ❤️ love • 💫 joy • ☮️ peace • 🕊 patience • 💝 kindness • 🌿 goodness • 🙏 faithfulness • 🤲 gentleness • 💪 self-control

42. Justin Telthorst (Catholic, Empty Chairs) - A Gay Catholic on Faith, the Pope, and the Empty Seats in the Church (Pride Month Reissue)

42. Justin Telthorst (Catholic, Empty Chairs) - A Gay Catholic on Faith, the Pope, and the Empty Seats in the Church (Pride Month Reissue) Alexis sits down with Justin Telthorst, a gay Catholic, speaker, and creator of Empty Chairs @emptychairshome for a moving conversation about faith, identity, church hurt, and belonging inside the Catholic tradition. Justin shares his story of growing up Catholic, surviving conversion therapy, wrestling with conscience and church teaching, and finding his way back to a relationship with God rooted in honesty, love, and truth. Together, Alexis and Justin explore what it means to stay connected to Jesus when institutions wound, and why LGBTQ Christians are still showing up, still praying, and still making room for hope. 💬 In This Episode • Growing up Catholic and falling in love with the Church • When faith and identity begin to feel in conflict • The harm of conversion therapy • Reclaiming a relationship with God after church hurt • The meaning behind Empty Chairs • Why LGBTQ Catholics are still showing up • Gatekeeping, conscience, belonging, and love of neighbor • How parents can respond when their child comes out • Catholics, Protestants, communion, and the tensions we inherit 👥 People/Resources Mentioned • Justin Telthorst / Empty Chairs: @emptychairshome • The Pope: @pontifex • Brené Brown: @brenebrown • 1946: The Mistranslation That Shifted Culture: @1946themovie • Colby Martin / UnClobbered: @colbymartin • Church Clarity: churchclarity.org • Father James Martin: @jamesmartinsj • Outreach: @outrchcatholic • Father James Alison • Theology for the Unwanted: @theounwanted • GayExTrad: @gayextrad • New Ways Ministry: @newwaysministry • Fortunate Families: fortunatefamilies.com • Honoring the Gift • Equip / Pieter Valk • Building Catholic Futures: @buildingcatholicorg • Eve Tushnet: @eve_tushnet • Without Exception / David Palmieri: see outreach.faith and newwaysministry.org • Dr. Julia Sadusky: @drsadusky #Catholicism #Christianity #deconstruction #reconstruction #LGBTQChristianity #GayCatholic #ProgressiveChristianity #QueerTheology #ChurchHurt #Catholic #1946TheMovie #LGBT #LGBTQ #emptychairs Support the show [https://www.buzzsprout.com/2471756/support] About The Sacred Slope Where the slippery slope becomes sacred ground. For the spiritually tender—raised in or rooted in Christianity. Come explore our global, diverse, inclusive Christian faith, deconstruction, and spiritual identity in a rapidly changing world. Through conversations with clergy, scholars, and cultural voices, the show creates space for people navigating faith after certainty, church harm, or political co-option of religion. 🎧 WATCH: YouTube / Spotify      LISTEN: Apple Podcasts + everywhere      FOLLOW: @thesacredslope (IG, FB, Threads, TikTok, YouTube, Bluesky) 🔗 Connect 🎧 Explore episodes & community: linktr.ee/TheSacredSlope [https://linktr.ee/TheSacredSlope?utm_source=chatgpt.com] 🎙 Hosted by Alexis Rice 🎵 Music by Brett Rutledge, Eddie Irvin & Sean Spence 📬 Nominate a guest: alexis@thesacredslope.com 🌿 Community Guidelines 🌿 Fruit of the Spirit:  ❤️ love • 💫 joy • ☮️ peace • 🕊 patience • 💝 kindness • 🌿 goodness • 🙏 faithfulness • 🤲 gentleness • 💪 self-control

41. Rev. Brandan Robertson (Progressive Pastor) - Queer & Christian: Reclaiming the Bible, Our Faith, and Our Place at the Table (Pride Month Reissue)

41. Rev. Brandan Robertson (Progressive Pastor) - Queer & Christian: Reclaiming the Bible, Our Faith, and Our Place at the Table (Pride Month Reissue) What if being queer and Christian was never the contradiction you were taught it was? Alexis sits down with Rev. Brandan Robertson, pastor, activist, and author of Queer & Christian, to explore how scripture has been misunderstood, weaponized, and reclaimed. Brandan shares his journey from a fundamentalist Baptist upbringing, through Bible college and conversion therapy, to becoming an openly gay pastor and leading voice in progressive Christianity. Together, they unpack what happens when faith both saves you and harms you, and how deconstruction can lead to something deeper. They dive into some of the most debated passages in the Bible, including Sodom and Gomorrah and 1 Corinthians 6, challenging long-held assumptions about LGBTQ Christianity and biblical interpretation. Brandan explains how mistranslations, cultural context, and power dynamics, not love, are at the center of many interpretations. This conversation reframes the Bible not as a rulebook, but as a complex, ancient library inviting curiosity, wrestling, and growth. They also explore:  • Why progressive Christians must be louder about their faith  • How queer people carry deep spiritual wisdom  • The difference between certainty and truth  • Why interpretation matters  • How harmful theology impacts real lives The episode closes with a powerful prayer for anyone who has felt rejected, afraid, or cut off from the love of God. This episode is for anyone exploring:  progressive Christianity, LGBTQ Christianity, queer theology, biblical interpretation, deconstruction, faith after evangelicalism, or healing from church hurt. 💡 Key Takeaways  • The Bible is not univocal and contains diverse voices  • Interpretation is unavoidable and matters deeply  • Many anti-LGBTQ readings ignore historical context  • Deconstruction can lead to deeper faith  • God’s love is not something you can lose About Our Guest  Rev. Brandan Robertson (@brandanrobertson) is a pastor, activist, and author of Queer & Christian. He is a PhD candidate in New Testament at Drew University (@drewuniversity). 📚 Resources & Voices Mentioned •Queer & Christian: https://www.brandanrobertson.com/queer-christian-book [https://www.brandanrobertson.com/queer-christian-book] • Dan McClellan @maklelan • Brian McLaren @brianmclaren • Don Lemon @donlemonofficial • James Talarico @jamestalarico • Rocky Roggio @1946themovie • Rachel Held Evans @rachelheldevans Support the show [https://www.buzzsprout.com/2471756/support] About The Sacred Slope Where the slippery slope becomes sacred ground. For the spiritually tender—raised in or rooted in Christianity. Come explore our global, diverse, inclusive Christian faith, deconstruction, and spiritual identity in a rapidly changing world. Through conversations with clergy, scholars, and cultural voices, the show creates space for people navigating faith after certainty, church harm, or political co-option of religion. 🎧 WATCH: YouTube / Spotify      LISTEN: Apple Podcasts + everywhere      FOLLOW: @thesacredslope (IG, FB, Threads, TikTok, YouTube, Bluesky) 🔗 Connect 🎧 Explore episodes & community: linktr.ee/TheSacredSlope [https://linktr.ee/TheSacredSlope?utm_source=chatgpt.com] 🎙 Hosted by Alexis Rice 🎵 Music by Brett Rutledge, Eddie Irvin & Sean Spence 📬 Nominate a guest: alexis@thesacredslope.com 🌿 Community Guidelines 🌿 Fruit of the Spirit:  ❤️ love • 💫 joy • ☮️ peace • 🕊 patience • 💝 kindness • 🌿 goodness • 🙏 faithfulness • 🤲 gentleness • 💪 self-control

40. Sara Cunningham (Free Mom Hugs) & Kelly Mellen (Making Things Right) – Women of Faith Showing Up for the Queer Community

40. Sara Cunningham (Free Mom Hugs) & Kelly Mellen (Making Things Right) – Women of Faith Showing Up for the Queer Community What does it look like when women of faith choose love over fear and show up for the queer community? Alexis sits down with Sara Cunningham, founder of Free Mom Hugs, and Kelly Mellen, Managing Director of Making Things Right, for a joyful, deeply personal conversation about faith, allyship, healing, and learning how to better love and support LGBTQ+ people. Together, these three women of faith reflect on growing up in Christian traditions that taught homosexuality was a sin, the relationships and experiences that changed their hearts, and why no one should ever have to choose between their faith and being fully known and loved. Sara shares the story behind Free Mom Hugs, which has become a source of hope and chosen family for countless LGBTQ+ people and parents around the world. Kelly discusses her work with Making Things Right and her "I'm Sorry Pride Tour," inviting Christians to move beyond good intentions and into repentance, repair, and love in action. They discuss church hurt, Christian nationalism, allyship, apology, belonging, and why showing up with compassion matters now more than ever. The conversation closes with a blessing for anyone who has ever wondered whether they belong, whether God could still love them, or whether hope is possible after spiritual harm. This conversation is for anyone exploring progressive Christianity, LGBTQ+ Christianity, allyship, church hurt, deconstruction, healing after evangelicalism, affirming theology, chosen family, Free Mom Hugs, faith after harm, and showing up with love. 💡 Key Takeaways • Love is bigger than fear • Relationships change hearts more effectively than arguments • Christians have a responsibility to repair harm done to LGBTQ+ people • Apologies matter, but showing up matters even more • Chosen family is sacred • LGBTQ+ people deserve to be fully known, loved, and celebrated About Our Guests Sara Cunningham (@saraphrased @freemomhugs) is the founder of Free Mom Hugs, a movement empowering people to celebrate the LGBTQIA+ community through visibility, education, and conversation. Kelly Mellen (@kellymellen_) is the Managing Director of Making Things Right (@makingthingsright_mtr), helping Christians move toward responsibility, repair, and compassionate allyship. 📚 Resources & Voices Mentioned • Brian Neitzel (@brianneitzel) Co-founder of Making Things Right and leader of the "I'm Sorry Pride Tour." • Rocky Roggio (@rockyroggio @1946TheMovie) Director of 1946: The Mistranslation That Shifted Culture. • Jamie Lee Curtis (@jamieleecurtis) • CenterPeace (@centerpeaceinc) • Q Christian Fellowship (@qchristianorg) • The Reformation Project (@thereformationproject) • The Necessary Conversation Podcast (@thenecessaryconversationpod) • Peppermint (@peppermint247) 🏳️‍🌈 Looking for an affirming church? Church Clarity (@churchclarity) Enter your ZIP code at ChurchClarity.org to find churches that are clear (and unclear) about: • LGBTQ+ affirmation • Same-sex weddings • Women in leadership • Queer leadership and belonging 🤗 Looking for your people? Free Mom Hugs (@freemomhugs) Find a local chapter, volunteer, or simply know that there are people looking for you, too. As Sara reminds us: "There's nothing you have done, nothing you will do, and nothing you can do that can separate you from the love of God." And as Kelly says: "I'm sorry you've been fed a narrative that you are less than. You are fearfully and wonderfully made, just the way you are." If this episode resonates with you, consider sharing it with someone navigating faith, sexuality, belonging, or healing from church hurt. Sometimes the most sacred thing we can do is simply show up with love. Support the show [https://www.buzzsprout.com/2471756/support] About The Sacred Slope Where the slippery slope becomes sacred ground. For the spiritually tender—raised in or rooted in Christianity. Come explore our global, diverse, inclusive Christian faith, deconstruction, and spiritual identity in a rapidly changing world. Through conversations with clergy, scholars, and cultural voices, the show creates space for people navigating faith after certainty, church harm, or political co-option of religion. 🎧 WATCH: YouTube / Spotify      LISTEN: Apple Podcasts + everywhere      FOLLOW: @thesacredslope (IG, FB, Threads, TikTok, YouTube, Bluesky) 🔗 Connect 🎧 Explore episodes & community: linktr.ee/TheSacredSlope [https://linktr.ee/TheSacredSlope?utm_source=chatgpt.com] 🎙 Hosted by Alexis Rice 🎵 Music by Brett Rutledge, Eddie Irvin & Sean Spence 📬 Nominate a guest: alexis@thesacredslope.com 🌿 Community Guidelines 🌿 Fruit of the Spirit:  ❤️ love • 💫 joy • ☮️ peace • 🕊 patience • 💝 kindness • 🌿 goodness • 🙏 faithfulness • 🤲 gentleness • 💪 self-control

39. Rev. Roberto Che Espinoza, PhD (Baptist) – Becoming Human With One Another (Pride Month Reissue)

39. Rev. Roberto Che Espinoza (Baptist) – Becoming Human With One Another (Pride Month Reissue) This week, Alexis Rice welcomes Rev. Dr. Roberto Che Espinoza, PhD (@drrobertoche), pastor, scholar, and founder of Activist Theology and Our Collective Becoming. Roberto’s life and ministry embody a theology rooted in interdependence, tenderness, and justice. A Latinx trans man, theologian, and ordained Baptist minister, Roberto has devoted his work to spiritual formation, collective liberation, and radical ethics. He invites us to rediscover the practices of Jesus—not as abstractions, but as embodied acts of eating, walking, storytelling, and living in community. Song: Stay Safe provided by singer-songwriter and ally, Derek Webb @derekwebb. Alexis and Roberto explore: * Why oppositional politics fuels polarization—and how interdependence offers a better way * How embodiment and presence can reshape theology and ethics * Roberto’s call story: growing up in poverty and violence, finding home in the church, surviving abuse, and reclaiming his call to ministry * The painful reality of being pushed out of churches for living prophetically, and the hope of interspiritual community * What it means to become a stone catcher in a world of violence toward queer and trans people * How proximity, care, and hospitality can disrupt cycles of fear and build true solidarity 💡 Key Takeaways * Embodied presence is the starting point for repair * The fruit of the Spirit—not fear or exclusion—must guide Christian community * To follow Jesus is to risk proximity, solidarity, and radical love * Flourishing requires more than inclusion—it demands spaces where difference blooms ⛪ About Our Guest Rev. Dr. Roberto Che Espinoza is a pastor, visiting professor, activist, and scholar. A Latinx trans man, Roberto works at the intersections of embodiment, decolonial thought, moral imagination, and justice-rooted theology. He holds a BA in Bible, an MTS in Ethics, and a PhD in Constructive Philosophical Theology. He founded Activist Theology and Our Collective Becoming, is a visiting professor at Duke Divinity, and speaks nationally and internationally on gender justice, faith, and politics. Roberto lives in upstate New York. 📚 Resources Mentioned * Activist Theology & Body Becoming — @drrobertoche * Queer Virtue — @elizabethedman * Survival Songs album — @derekwebb * Homebrewed Christianity — @theologynerd * Exvangelical — @brchastain * Straight White American Jesus — @straightwhitejc & @bbonishi * Work by Sarah Heath — @revsarahheath * The Bible for Normal People — @thebiblefornormalpeople May you find sacred ground, may the fruit of the Spirit guide you. If you’re longing for community, may you be encouraged to find one that embraces your full, questioning, beautiful selves. Support the show [https://www.buzzsprout.com/2471756/support] About The Sacred Slope Where the slippery slope becomes sacred ground. For the spiritually tender—raised in or rooted in Christianity. Come explore our global, diverse, inclusive Christian faith, deconstruction, and spiritual identity in a rapidly changing world. Through conversations with clergy, scholars, and cultural voices, the show creates space for people navigating faith after certainty, church harm, or political co-option of religion. 🎧 WATCH: YouTube / Spotify      LISTEN: Apple Podcasts + everywhere      FOLLOW: @thesacredslope (IG, FB, Threads, TikTok, YouTube, Bluesky) 🔗 Connect 🎧 Explore episodes & community: linktr.ee/TheSacredSlope [https://linktr.ee/TheSacredSlope?utm_source=chatgpt.com] 🎙 Hosted by Alexis Rice 🎵 Music by Brett Rutledge, Eddie Irvin & Sean Spence 📬 Nominate a guest: alexis@thesacredslope.com Support the show [https://www.buzzsprout.com/2471756/support] About The Sacred Slope Where the slippery slope becomes sacred ground. For the spiritually tender—raised in or rooted in Christianity. Come explore our global, diverse, inclusive Christian faith, deconstruction, and spiritual identity in a rapidly changing world. Through conversations with clergy, scholars, and cultural voices, the show creates space for people navigating faith after certainty, church harm, or political co-option of religion. 🎧 WATCH: YouTube / Spotify      LISTEN: Apple Podcasts + everywhere      FOLLOW: @thesacredslope (IG, FB, Threads, TikTok, YouTube, Bluesky) 🔗 Connect 🎧 Explore episodes & community: linktr.ee/TheSacredSlope [https://linktr.ee/TheSacredSlope?utm_source=chatgpt.com] 🎙 Hosted by Alexis Rice 🎵 Music by Brett Rutledge, Eddie Irvin & Sean Spence 📬 Nominate a guest: alexis@thesacredslope.com 🌿 Community Guidelines 🌿 Fruit of the Spirit:  ❤️ love • 💫 joy • ☮️ peace • 🕊 patience • 💝 kindness • 🌿 goodness • 🙏 faithfulness • 🤲 gentleness • 💪 self-control