Burn The Map

Burn The Map: SEO, LLMs, and Calling Bullshit Early w/ Jason Berkowitz

In This Episode: We talk to Jason Berkowitz about the weird, messy overlap between SEO, AI search, and the growing industry of people selling certainty where there really isn't any. Jason breaks down what's actually changing, what's mostly recycled packaging, and why a lot of the current GEO/LLM optimization conversation is just old-school SEO wearing a sharper outfit. He walks through the real problems brands are dealing with right now: collapsing organic traffic, bot scraping, fuzzy attribution, shifting baselines, and leadership teams asking for answers before the platforms themselves have settled. The throughline here is simple: don't confuse novelty with clarity. AI is changing search, but that doesn't mean you should hand your strategy over to people promising magic tricks. What still matters is judgment, strong fundamentals, clear messaging, and knowing the difference between useful automation and expensive theater. What We Cover: * Why SEO isn't dead — it's just getting stranger, noisier, and harder to measure * The truth about GEO, AEO, and LLM optimization, and why so much of it is just repackaged SEO * What brands should actually care about as AI overviews and bot traffic eat into old traffic models * How to think about AI citations, topical alignment, and visibility without pretending rank tracking is objective * What parts of SEO should be automated immediately — and what still needs a human brain * Why clear, audience-first messaging beats clever brand language when discoverability is on the line * The agency-world bullshit Jason refuses to participate in, from fake certainty to low-integrity client retention Guest Bio: Jason Berkowitz is the founder of Break The Web, an SEO agency focused on helping in-house marketing teams make search less confusing, less bloated, and a lot more honest. He has spent more than 15 years in SEO and digital marketing, building a reputation for sharp thinking, strong opinions, and very little patience for industry nonsense. Jason works at the intersection of SEO, content strategy, digital PR, and AI search visibility, with a particular obsession for separating what actually works from what's just being sold well. Enjoy the episode. This show is brought to you by Wrench.ai [https://wrench.ai/]. Follow Dan: LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/danbaird/ [https://www.linkedin.com/in/danbaird/]X: https://x.com/mrdanbaird [https://x.com/mrdanbaird] Follow Jason: LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/jasonberkowitzseo/ [https://www.linkedin.com/in/jasonberkowitzseo/] Follow the Pod: YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/@burnthemappodcast [https://www.youtube.com/@burnthemappodcast]Twitter/X: https://x.com/BurnTheMapPod [https://x.com/BurnTheMapPod]Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/burnthemappodcast/ [https://www.instagram.com/burnthemappodcast/]TikTok: https://www.tiktok.com/@burnthemappodcast [https://www.tiktok.com/@burnthemappodcast]BlueSky: https://bsky.app/profile/burnthemappodcast.bsky.social [https://bsky.app/profile/burnthemappodcast.bsky.social] Selected Links From This Episode: * Break The Web: https://breaktheweb.agency/ [https://breaktheweb.agency/] People and Organizations Mentioned: * Break The Web * Wrench.ai * Google * OpenAI * ChatGPT * Anthropic * Claude * Gemini * Perplexity * Reddit * Amazon Show Notes & Timestamps:01:14 — Organic traffic drops, bot scraping explodes, and brands start panicking about LLM visibility 04:07 — Google patents, personalized landing pages, and whether the future of search even looks like a browser anymore 05:32 — Consumer trust, ChatGPT behavior, and why mainstream adoption still matters more than tech Twitter takes 09:34 — Market share, AI business models, and why the infrastructure race won't slow down anytime soon 13:06 — Tracking AI visibility with APIs, topical alignment, and why personalization makes "rank tracking" messy 16:09 — Reddit, sarcasm, trolling, and whether LLMs can reliably tell signal from nonsense 19:51 — Why simple, audience-first language beats clever naming when you want to be understood by both humans and machines 23:38 — Automating the boring SEO work without sacrificing strategic thinking 25:42 — Are AI systems smarter than marketers yet? Jason and Dan split the difference 32:48 — The biggest lie in the industry right now: "SEO is dead" 33:44 — Why some GEO agencies are charging real money for glorified PR and content packaging 36:31 — Agency churn, retention, and the brutal math behind low-integrity service businesses 37:23 — The part of SEO Jason refuses to automate: strategy, architecture, and relationship-driven judgment 41:07 — What Break The Web actually does, and why in-house marketers often stall out before real growth starts 44:04 — Search intent, topical clusters, and balancing brand voice with what Google will actually reward 47:00 — Jason's "oh shit" moment: building around one giant client and nearly learning the hard way 48:45 — Why Jason caps client concentration and refuses to overload the business for short-term revenue 49:45 — No contracts, expectation-setting, and earning the business every month 52:01 — Quick wins, buyer's remorse, and the psychology of keeping clients confident early 53:07 — Entrepreneurship, boredom, obsession, and why some people just aren't built for retirement 54:03 — Mexico jungles, isolation, mental reset, and the strange therapy of going off-grid

Burn The Map: Build, Buy, or Get Left Behind w/ Jonathon 'Coach K" Kvarfordt

In This Episode: We talk to Jonathon Kvarfordt, aka Coach K, about what it actually looks like to implement AI in go-to-market without falling for the easy-button fantasy. Jonathon has spent years in sales coaching, GTM strategy, marketing, and AI education, and most recently helped lead go-to-market at Momentum through its acquisition by Salesforce. He's one of the few people in the space who sounds like he's actually done the work—because he has. This conversation gets into where AI projects really break: bad inputs, lazy implementation, fuzzy goals, and teams that want transformation without changing how they operate. Jonathon makes the case that the future isn't about doing the old workflow a little faster. It's about rethinking the system underneath it. We also get into the bigger existential question hanging over all of this—if everyone has access to the same models, same tools, same agents… what's left that's actually defensible? His answer: your taste, your scars, your judgment, and your IP. What We Cover: * How Jonathon went from Momentum customer to advisor to GTM leader during the run-up to the Salesforce acquisition * Why most AI implementations fail before they really start * The difference between automating old workflows and rebuilding them from scratch * Why the best AI often works in the background, removing drudgery instead of creating more work * What actually matters when everyone suddenly has access to the same tools * Jonathon's take on build vs. buy, vibe coding, and why your judgment is still the real moat Guest Bio: Jonathon Kvarfordt is a go-to-market and AI operator known for turning emerging AI capability into practical revenue execution. He most recently served as VP of GTM at Momentum, which was acquired by Salesforce, and has worked across sales coaching, marketing, AI implementation, and GTM strategy. He also teaches as an adjunct professor at Bryant University and contributes to the broader GTM community through GTM Academy. If you want AI strategy from someone with actual battle scars—not recycled theory—Coach K is worth paying attention to. Enjoy the episode. This show is brought to you by Wrench.ai [http://wrench.ai]. Follow Dan: LinkedIn:https://www.linkedin.com/in/danbaird/ [https://www.linkedin.com/in/danbaird/]X: https://x.com/mrdanbaird [https://x.com/mrdanbaird] Follow Jonathon: LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/jmkmba/ [https://www.linkedin.com/in/jmkmba/] Follow the Pod: YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/@burnthemappodcast [https://www.youtube.com/@burnthemappodcast]Twitter/X: https://x.com/BurnTheMapPod [https://x.com/BurnTheMapPod]Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/burnthemappodcast/ [https://www.instagram.com/burnthemappodcast/]TikTok: https://www.tiktok.com/@burnthemappodcast [https://www.tiktok.com/@burnthemappodcast]BlueSky: https://bsky.app/profile/burnthemappodcast.bsky.social [https://bsky.app/profile/burnthemappodcast.bsky.social] Selected Links From This Episode: * Jonathon Kvarfordt LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/jmkmba/ [https://www.linkedin.com/in/jmkmba/] People and Organizations Mentioned: * Bryant University * GTM Academy * Mark Benioff * Jason Lemkin * Kyle Norton * Claude * Anthropic * Allie Miller * Jonathan Moss * Tahnee Peroy * Maya Voje * Alex Lindell * Dannii Mathers Show Notes & Timestamps: * 00:08 — Intro: Dan welcomes Jonathon Kvarfordt, aka Coach K * 01:14 — Momentum, Salesforce, and how Jonathon ended up inside the company after first being a customer * 06:35 — The hardest part of teaching AI and GTM: getting people past one-line prompts and "easy button" thinking * 08:22 — Why the future isn't just faster old workflows—it's a fundamentally different operating model * 09:43 — Biggest implementation failures: bad inputs, weak context, and customers blaming AI for their own laziness * 12:29 — What an ideal AI rollout actually looks like when tied to business outcomes and real KPIs * 15:22 — Passive data capture, workflow-native AI, and why the best use cases reduce human effort instead of adding to it * 18:12 — Is AI smarter than you yet? Jonathon's take on IP, leverage, and what remains defensible * 21:09 — Geekiness, passion, and why human obsession still matters in an AI-saturated world * 23:10 — AI music, authenticity, and whether human-created work becomes more valuable as synthetic supply explodes * 28:03 — Why the real value of AI output often comes from years of human experience compressed into faster delivery * 30:45 — Jonathon's changed belief: AI may understand emotional intelligence better than most people assume * 34:05 — Build vs. buy in the vibe-coding era: what individuals can build vs. what real organizations still struggle to pull off * 38:58 — Dan on replacing yourself, MCPs, and teaching AI your decision tree without surrendering judgment * 43:32 — Two weeks to learn AI: where late adopters should start and how to avoid wasting money * 45:48 — Where to find Jonathon and the thinkers he recommends following

Burn The Map: AI, Knowledge Inflation, and the Race to Stay Valuable w/ Tim Kapp

In This Episode: We talk to Tim Kapp about what happens when AI stops being a cool tool and starts becoming an economic event. Tim breaks down his idea of knowledge inflation — the unsettling reality that the thing most of us have been selling for decades, namely knowledge work, is getting cheaper by the day. From coding and product design to education, law, and marketing, he walks through what happens when intelligence becomes abundant, syntax becomes cheap, and the real value shifts somewhere else. This one goes into the deep end: AI as a force that reorganizes work, rewards taste over rote skill, and exposes entirely new bottlenecks in business. Tim and Dan get into autonomous agents, trust, universities losing their grip as the default signal of competence, and why the winners in this next era may be the people who can read the terrain, think structurally, and build what should exist next. What We Cover: How knowledge inflation is deflating the value of traditional knowledge work. Why syntax is becoming cheap — and why taste, structure, and judgment matter more. What businesses get wrong when they use AI to cut people instead of remove bottlenecks. Why technical product managers and curious operators may be the big winners here. How trust, network effects, IP, and distribution could become the real moats in an AI-saturated world. Guest Bio: Tim Kapp is an AI strategist, economist, professor, and founder of Cinco AI. He works at the intersection of economics, data science, education, and applied AI, and has taught at BYU. Tim has been writing and speaking about the economic consequences of artificial intelligence — especially how AI is reshaping knowledge work, incentives, and competitive advantage. He publishes his thinking at timkapp.com and leads AI work through cinco.ai. Enjoy the episode. This show is brought to you by Wrench.ai. [http://wrench.ai] Follow Dan: LinkedIn:https://www.linkedin.com/in/danbaird/ [https://www.linkedin.com/in/danbaird/]X: https://x.com/mrdanbaird [https://x.com/mrdanbaird] Follow Tim: LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/timkapp/ [https://www.linkedin.com/in/timkapp/] Follow the Pod: YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/@burnthemappodcast [https://www.youtube.com/@burnthemappodcast]Twitter/X: https://x.com/BurnTheMapPod [https://x.com/BurnTheMapPod]Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/burnthemappodcast/ [https://www.instagram.com/burnthemappodcast/]TikTok: https://www.tiktok.com/@burnthemappodcast [https://www.tiktok.com/@burnthemappodcast]BlueSky: https://bsky.app/profile/burnthemappodcast.bsky.social [https://bsky.app/profile/burnthemappodcast.bsky.social] Selected Links From This Episode: * Tim Kapp: https://www.timkapp.com/ [https://www.timkapp.com/] * Tim Kapp Press Kit: https://www.timkapp.com/press-kit [https://www.timkapp.com/press-kit] * Cinco AI: https://www.cinco.ai/ [https://www.cinco.ai/] * Wrench.ai: https://wrench.ai [https://wrench.ai/] People and Organizations Mentioned: * Cinco AI * Wrench.ai * BYU * University of Utah * Anthropic * OpenAI * Meta * Google * Amazon * Ethan Mollick * Rick Rubin * Bertrand Russell * Adam Smith * Sandlot * Silicon Slopes Show Notes & Timestamps: * 01:22 — Tim explains knowledge inflation and why knowledge work is being deflated * 03:16 — AI as a printing press for knowledge * 04:09 — The "I'm replaceable" moment, and the weird grief cycle of AI adoption * 06:01 — Why using AI well feels like suddenly acquiring superpowers * 07:53 — Theory of constraints, bottlenecks, and why cutting staff can backfire * 10:23 — Decision-making hierarchies, internal knowledge systems, and "DNA files" * 11:23 — Why brand, feeling, and emotional texture may matter more in AI-built products * 14:22 — AI slop, synthetic personas, and testing experiences against simulated users * 17:34 — Tim's book I'm Learning You and the problem of AI systems optimizing to flatter and influence us * 19:19 — Recommendation engines, retention loops, and political polarization * 22:29 — Why AI may be making people work more, not less * 23:36 — The latest inflection point: automated testing starts beating human testing * 28:04 — Why syntax is becoming less valuable and structure is becoming more valuable * 29:36 — Ontologies, product thinking, and why technical product managers may win this era * 31:38 — Rick Rubin, taste, and why feel may outrun pure technical skill * 33:30 — Wi-Fi in the woods, discomfort, and stepping back to read the terrain * 36:19 — If AI breaks the bottleneck, where does value migrate next? * 38:12 — Sovereign AI, open models, and the geopolitical scramble for control * 40:23 — Autonomous agents, manipulation, and the blackmail-by-bot scenario * 47:20 — The hidden cost of training AI on your own judgment and process * 50:50 — The next durable moats: trust, capital, network effects, and IP * 53:52 — Why AI may become the single biggest economic event of our lifetimes * 55:19 — Bertrand Russell, idleness, and what humans should do if machines take more of the work * 59:11 — What kids should learn now in an AI-native world * 1:00:48 — Why universities may be failing as a signal of actual capability * 1:04:12 — Curiosity, applied learning, and why goofing off with tools may be the real education * 1:06:00 — Burn The Map, obsession, and the people who can't help but chase the thing

Burn The Map: AI Teammates, Human Judgment, and the End of Lazy Management w/ Scott Morris

In This Episode: We talk to Scott Morris about the weird, messy, often badly managed reality of work — and why AI might actually make it better, if we stop using it as an excuse to be lazy thinkers. Scott walked us through the path from LAPD officer to longtime people executive to founder of Propulsion AI, where he's building AI teammates designed to help companies stop treating humans like interchangeable headcount and start getting serious about performance, clarity, and meaningful work. This conversation goes way past the usual "AI will take your job" panic. Scott makes the case that most companies blaming layoffs on AI are mostly hiding old-school boardroom decisions behind a shiny new acronym. What actually matters, he argues, is whether leaders know how to define outcomes, give real feedback, and redesign work so humans can spend less time on drudgery and more time using judgment, creativity, and initiative. What We Cover: * Why the "AI is causing all the layoffs" story is mostly corporate cover * How bad managers create confusion, disengagement, and avoidable turnover * Why outcome-based work beats activity-based work every time * What Propulsion AI is actually building — and why "AI teammates" is more than a buzzword * How work changes when humans stop doing the repetitive stuff and start doing the thinking * Why Scott believes the future belongs to people who can adapt faster than the old job description Guest Bio: Scott Morris is the founder of Propulsion AI, where he's building AI teammates that help organizations align strategy, talent, and performance. Before launching the company, Scott spent around 25 years in the people and HR world, including more than 20 years in senior leadership roles. Earlier in his career, he served as a police officer with the City of Los Angeles — an experience that shaped his fascination with perception, human behavior, and why people can look at the exact same situation and walk away with completely different interpretations. He also hosts the Talent Sherpa podcast, where he explores leadership, management, and the employer-employee relationship. Enjoy the episode. This show is brought to you by Wrench.ai. [http://wrench.ai] Follow Dan: LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/danbaird/ [https://www.linkedin.com/in/danbaird/]X: https://x.com/mrdanbaird [https://x.com/mrdanbaird] Follow Scott: LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/mscottm/ [https://www.linkedin.com/in/mscottm/] Follow the Pod: YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/@burnthemappodcast [https://www.youtube.com/@burnthemappodcast]Twitter/X: https://x.com/BurnTheMapPod [https://x.com/BurnTheMapPod]Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/burnthemappodcast/ [https://www.instagram.com/burnthemappodcast/]TikTok: https://www.tiktok.com/@burnthemappodcast [https://www.tiktok.com/@burnthemappodcast]BlueSky: https://bsky.app/profile/burnthemappodcast.bsky.social [https://bsky.app/profile/burnthemappodcast.bsky.social] Selected Links From This Episode: * Propulsion AI: https://www.getpropulsion.ai/ [https://www.getpropulsion.ai/] * Wrench.ai: https://wrench.ai [https://wrench.ai/] People and Organizations Mentioned: * Propulsion AI * Wrench.ai * Singularity University * Peter Diamandis * KPMG * Salesforce * Anthropic * Claude * Perplexity * Lou Adler * Jeff Woods * Ron Heifetz * Marty Linsky * Talent Sherpa podcast * Block Show Notes & Timestamps: * 00:08 — Dan's first impression of Propulsion AI: "defensible" and thoughtfully built * 01:07 — Scott's origin story: from LAPD to people leadership * 03:13 — Why people matter more and less than ever in modern business * 04:06 — Scott calls bullshit on the "AI is causing all the layoffs" narrative * 05:28 — The calculator, Lotus 1-2-3, and why technology panic is an old story * 08:04 — How Scott evaluates AI hype versus what's actually useful * 10:20 — Why "AI" is too broad a term to mean anything useful on its own * 11:00 — Propulsion AI's philosophy: make humans better, don't just replace them * 14:50 — What Propulsion AI actually does and why private equity is the beachhead * 17:18 — The two things that matter most at work: clear expectations and real feedback * 19:15 — Theory X vs. Theory Y management * 21:13 — Why outcome-based management beats activity-based management * 22:32 — Athena, DSO, and how Scott thinks AI should support managers * 27:45 — Why most AI deployments fail: companies add tools without redesigning work * 31:50 — What human work becomes when AI takes the drudgery * 35:14 — How Scott uses Claude and Perplexity to think and write more deeply * 39:00 — Book recommendation: The AI Driven Leader by Jeff Woods * 41:04 — Leadership on the Line, adaptive leadership, and why leadership is a verb * 43:06 — Why frameworks matter, but only if you know how to apply them * 51:20 — Scott bot, AGI, and whether an AI version of you is inevitable * 55:43 — Why LinkedIn outreach is getting worse in the bot era * 57:03 — Where to find Scott, Propulsion AI, and the Talent Sherpa podcast

Burn The Map: Customer First, Technology Last w/ Chris Hood

In This Episode: We talk to Chris Hood about why most companies are nowhere near as customer-focused as they think they are. Chris breaks down the gap between saying you care about customer experience and actually building a business around it — and spoiler: most brands are optimizing for internal convenience, not customer value. From bloated onboarding flows and fake "customer-first" language to AI rollouts nobody asked for, this conversation is a sharp reality check for anyone building products, managing growth, or hiding behind vanity metrics. He also walks through what good customer experience actually looks like: talking to real people, finding the actual problem worth solving, and reducing the friction between customer need and customer value. If you've ever wondered why businesses keep building things backward — starting with tech, dashboards, or executive ego instead of the customer — this one gets into the bones of it. What We Cover: * Why customer experience is really about speed to value, not vibes or brand theater * How companies fool themselves into thinking they're customer-centric when they're not * Why talking to customers beats obsessing over frameworks, surveys, and internal assumptions * The problem with NPS, CSAT, and other vanity metrics that make teams feel smart without telling them much * How AI gets shoved into products for efficiency theater — and why customers usually don't care unless it actually solves something Guest Bio: Chris Hood is an author, educator, and customer experience strategist focused on the overlap between CX, business transformation, and emerging technology. He teaches at Southern New Hampshire University and is the author of Customer Transformation, where he argues for a simple principle: customer first, technology last. His work challenges companies to stop confusing internal priorities with real customer value — and to build products that solve actual problems instead of just sounding innovative. Enjoy the episode. This show is brought to you by Wrench.ai [http://wrench.ai]. Follow Dan: LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/danbaird/ [https://www.linkedin.com/in/danbaird/]X: https://x.com/mrdanbaird [https://x.com/mrdanbaird] Follow Chris: LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/chrishood/ [https://www.linkedin.com/in/chrishood/] Follow the Pod: YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/@burnthemappodcast [https://www.youtube.com/@burnthemappodcast]Twitter/X: https://x.com/BurnTheMapPod [https://x.com/BurnTheMapPod]Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/burnthemappodcast/ [https://www.instagram.com/burnthemappodcast/]TikTok: https://www.tiktok.com/@burnthemappodcast [https://www.tiktok.com/@burnthemappodcast]BlueSky: https://bsky.app/profile/burnthemappodcast.bsky.social [https://bsky.app/profile/burnthemappodcast.bsky.social] Selected Links From This Episode: * Chris Hood: https://chrishood.com/ [https://chrishood.com/] * Southern New Hampshire University: https://www.snhu.edu/ [https://www.snhu.edu/] * Wrench.ai: https://wrench.ai [https://wrench.ai/] People and Organizations Mentioned: * Southern New Hampshire University * Wrench.ai * Google * Disney * Budweiser * Cracker Barrel * Taco Bell * AT&T * Netflix * McDonald's * ConAgra * Mrs. Fields Show Notes & Timestamps: 00:08 — Intro: Chris Hood on customer experience, AI, and where companies get it wrong 01:41 — Why everybody is already a customer experience expert 03:42 — Surprise, friction, and the emotional mechanics of bad experiences 05:19 — The simplest rule in business: solve a specific problem 06:09 — McDonald's, AT&T, cancellations, and the idea of speed to value 08:50 — Subscription businesses, churn blindness, and "good enough" customer experience 10:48 — How many companies really treat CX like a serious initiative? 13:48 — Why Chris thinks Disney is not a customer-first company anymore 15:41 — The self-deception built into bad customer experience strategy 16:22 — The litmus test: ask how a company defines and measures the customer 17:33 — Budweiser, messaging failures, and what priorities reveal 19:41 — Why most companies don't actually know who their real customer is 22:06 — Cracker Barrel, bad validation, and why employees are not your market 23:02 — Start with the customer, not the product 26:19 — Frameworks are fine, but first: talk to actual human beings 28:45 — Customers are great at telling you what's broken 29:52 — Chris's framework from Customer Transformation 30:55 — Customer first, technology last 31:52 — AI hype cycles and why customers mostly care about outcomes 34:41 — Who should own customer experience inside a company? 36:15 — The 20-question signup form and death by internal alignment 38:17 — Why "would you buy this?" is usually the wrong question 39:39 — Solve the problem first; price comes later 41:15 — Why Net Promoter Score is mostly useless 44:10 — CSAT, movie test screenings, and better ways to get real feedback 47:51 — Small focus groups, percentages, and decision risk 50:40 — Brand pivots, customer alienation, and when companies ignore the obvious 54:59 — Outliers, super-fans, and the "messy middle" 59:39 — Post-COVID customer experience and the decline of transparency 01:01:46 — Legal friction, forced technology, and Taco Bell's AI example 01:05:09 — Why most AI ROI claims fall apart under scrutiny 01:06:27 — Efficiency for the company vs. value for the customer 01:11:57 — Where to find Chris and his work