The Ezra Klein Show

Will Iran Break Trumpism?

Is Trumpism crashing on the shoals of the Iran war? That is what Christopher Caldwell thinks. Caldwell is a prominent thinker on the right. He’s a contributing editor at the conservative publication the Claremont Review of Books,and he’s one of the people who’ve been trying to define, and even craft, a coherent Trumpism. So his recent article in The Spectator, “The End of Trumpism,” sparked a lot of debate on the right. At the core of this debate are some fundamental questions that I think remain unresolved, despite Trump’s decade-long dominance of the Republican Party: What is Trumpism? Is there Trumpism, or is there just Donald Trump? Caldwell is a contributing writer for Times Opinion and the author of “The Age of Entitlement: America Since the Sixties.” In this conversation, he explains how he understood Trumpism as a movement of “democratic restoration” — and why he believes the Iran war betrays that. And I ask him why he sees the seams of Trump’s base fraying, despite polling that suggests otherwise. Mentioned: “The end of Trumpism [https://spectator.com/article/the-iran-war-is-likely-to-mark-the-end-of-trumpism/?edition=us]” by Christopher Caldwell The Age of Entitlement [https://www.simonandschuster.com/books/The-Age-of-Entitlement/Christopher-Caldwell/9781501106910] by Christopher Caldwell “Is the West Becoming Pagan Again? [https://www.nytimes.com/2021/12/29/opinion/christianity-paganism-woke.html]” by Christopher Caldwell Self-Rule [https://press.uchicago.edu/ucp/books/book/chicago/S/bo3646425.html] by Robert H. Wiebe “Trump as Alexander the Great [https://www.notus.org/perspectives/trump-as-alexander-the-great-a-theory-that-explains-iran-and-everything-else]” by John B. Judis Book Recommendations: The Gulag Archipelago [https://www.harpercollins.com/products/the-gulag-archipelago-aleksandr-i-solzhenitsyn?variant=39307360632866] by Aleksandr I. Solzhenitsyn Common Ground [https://www.penguinrandomhouse.com/books/104456/common-ground-by-j-anthony-lukas/] by J. Anthony Lukas Ball Four [https://turnerpublishing.com/products/ball-four-the-final-pitch?srsltid=AfmBOooSIcljW3SUnyj1lGqxtvm82Y2cr-eGZbT6vZGvz947XiNvE8O0] by Jim Bouton Thoughts? Guest suggestions? Email us at ezrakleinshow@nytimes.com. You can find transcripts (posted midday) and more episodes of “The Ezra Klein Show” at nytimes.com/ezra-klein-podcast [https://www.nytimes.com/column/ezra-klein-podcast], and you can find Ezra on Twitter @ezraklein. Book recommendations from all our guests are listed at https://www.nytimes.com/article/ezra-klein-show-book-recs [https://www.nytimes.com/article/ezra-klein-show-book-recs.html]. This episode of “The Ezra Klein Show” was produced by Jack McCordick. Fact-checking by Michelle Harris with Kate Sinclair and Mary Marge Locker. Our senior engineer is Jeff Geld, with additional mixing by Aman Sahota. Our executive producer is Claire Gordon. The show’s production team also includes Marie Cascione, Annie Galvin, Rollin Hu, Kristin Lin, Emma Kehlbeck, Marina King and Jan Kobal. Original music by Pat McCusker. Audience strategy by Kristina Samulewski and Shannon Busta. The director of New York Times Opinion Audio is Annie-Rose Strasser. Subscribe today at nytimes.com/podcasts [http://nytimes.com/podcasts] or on Apple Podcasts and Spotify. You can also subscribe via your favorite podcast app here https://www.nytimes.com/activate-access/audio?source=podcatcher [https://www.nytimes.com/activate-access/audio?source=podcatcher]. For more podcasts and narrated articles, download The New York Times app at nytimes.com/app. Hosted by Simplecast, an AdsWizz company. See pcm.adswizz.com [https://pcm.adswizz.com] for information about our collection and use of personal data for advertising.

How Bad Could the Iran Oil Crisis Get?

Iran has currently shut off more than 10 percent of the world’s oil supply. If that goes on for a lot longer — or if the war escalates to include more strikes on energy infrastructure in the region — the price of oil could go through the roof, and the damage to the global economy could be catastrophic. So what would that look like? What tools does the United States have to avert it? And how is this crisis already reverberating in countries around the world? Jason Bordoff is the founding director of the Center on Global Energy Policy at Columbia University and a founding dean of the Columbia Climate School. He served as a special assistant to President Barack Obama and senior director for energy and climate change on the National Security Council. In this conversation, Bordoff answers all my questions about the crisis so far and how things could spin out from here, the strategic positioning of the United States, Europe, Iran, Russia and China, the developing countries likely to suffer the most and the lessons the world might take from this. Mentioned: “Making the U.S. More Resilient to Oil Price Shocks [https://foreignpolicy.com/2026/03/17/trump-oil-iran-gas-prices-consumers-crude-energy-taxes/]” by Jason Bordoff and Spencer Dale “The Return of the Energy Weapon [https://www.foreignaffairs.com/united-states/return-energy-weapon-bordoff-osullivan]” by Jason Bordoff and Meghan L. O’Sullivan Book Recommendations: Material World [https://www.penguinrandomhouse.com/books/703268/material-world-by-ed-conway/] by Ed Conway More and More and More [https://www.harpercollins.com/products/more-and-more-and-more-jean-baptiste-fressoz?variant=43719184416802] by Jean-Baptiste Fressoz Deliver Me from Nowhere [https://www.penguinrandomhouse.com/books/647205/deliver-me-from-nowhere-movie-tie-in-by-warren-zanes/] by Warren Zanes Thoughts? Guest suggestions? Email us at ezrakleinshow@nytimes.com. You can find transcripts (posted midday) and more episodes of “The Ezra Klein Show” at nytimes.com/ezra-klein-podcast, and you can find Ezra on Twitter @ezraklein. Book recommendations from all our guests are listed at https://www.nytimes.com/article/ezra-klein-show-book-recs. Subscribe today at nytimes.com/podcasts [http://nytimes.com/podcasts] or on Apple Podcasts and Spotify. You can also subscribe via your favorite podcast app here https://www.nytimes.com/activate-access/audio?source=podcatcher [https://www.nytimes.com/activate-access/audio?source=podcatcher]. For more podcasts and narrated articles, download The New York Times app at nytimes.com/app. Hosted by Simplecast, an AdsWizz company. See pcm.adswizz.com [https://pcm.adswizz.com] for information about our collection and use of personal data for advertising.

We’re All Living in the ‘Mirror World’ Now

Naomi Klein saw where our politics was headed before most people on the left. Her 2023 book “Doppelganger: A Trip Into the Mirror World” is hard to describe. But among other things, it traces the new coalitions Klein saw forming on the right, the ways they were co-opting issues long associated with the left, and finding huge audiences and influence outside existing institutions. The people and coalitions that Klein wrote about run our world now. We are all living in the mirror world. As she put it, it’s “doppelgangers at the wheel.” So I wanted to have Klein on the show to help understand how that happened, what the left failed to see at the time and the lessons the left should take from it now. As Klein told me: “The thing about doppelgangers is, in literature, they’re always a message telling you a warning: You have to look at yourself. There’s something about yourself that you’re not seeing.” Note: We recorded this episode before the war in Iran. Mentioned: Doppelganger [https://us.macmillan.com/books/9780374610326/doppelganger/] by Naomi Klein No Logo [https://us.macmillan.com/books/9780312429270/nologo/] by Naomi Klein “Minnesota Proved MAGA Wrong [https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/2026/01/the-neighbors-defending-minnesota-from-ice/685769/]” by Adam Serwer End Times Fascism [https://us.macmillan.com/books/9780374621407/endtimesfascism/] by Naomi Klein and Astra Taylor Book Recommendations: Empire of AI [https://www.penguinrandomhouse.com/books/743569/empire-of-ai-by-karen-hao/] by Karen Hao Here Where We Live Is Our Country [https://www.penguinrandomhouse.com/books/646320/here-where-we-live-is-our-country-by-molly-crabapple/] by Molly Crabapple Fire Alarm [https://www.versobooks.com/products/1958-fire-alarm?srsltid=AfmBOooY-y9aaq2U258UL734-axu5zONQsZYX-1dJJzCeych5qzkB0ts] by Michael Löwy Thoughts? Guest suggestions? Email us at ezrakleinshow@nytimes.com. You can find transcripts (posted midday) and more episodes of “The Ezra Klein Show” at nytimes.com/ezra-klein-podcast [https://www.nytimes.com/column/ezra-klein-podcast], and you can find Ezra on Twitter @ezraklein. Book recommendations from all our guests are listed at https://www.nytimes.com/article/ezra-klein-show-book-recs [https://www.nytimes.com/article/ezra-klein-show-book-recs.html]. Subscribe today at nytimes.com/podcasts [http://nytimes.com/podcasts] or on Apple Podcasts and Spotify. You can also subscribe via your favorite podcast app here https://www.nytimes.com/activate-access/audio?source=podcatcher [https://www.nytimes.com/activate-access/audio?source=podcatcher]. For more podcasts and narrated articles, download The New York Times app at nytimes.com/app. Hosted by Simplecast, an AdsWizz company. See pcm.adswizz.com [https://pcm.adswizz.com] for information about our collection and use of personal data for advertising.

What Trump Didn’t Know About Iran

The Trump administration miscalculated how Iran would respond to this war. And the United States, Iran and Israel were brought to the brink of war in the first place because of a whole series of misjudgments and miscalculations going back decades. Ali Vaez is the Iran project director at the International Crisis Group. He was involved in the negotiations that led to the 2015 nuclear deal, and is in fact himself a nuclear scientist. He’s also an author of “How Sanctions Work: Iran and the Impact of Economic Warfare.” In this conversation, Vaez explains how over 47 years the United States, Israel and Iran came to one another as threats, and why so many efforts to thaw relations failed. It’s the briefing on Iran that Trump should have received before he decided to go to war. Mentioned: How Sanctions Work [https://www.sup.org/books/politics/how-sanctions-work] by Narges Bajoghli, Vali Nasr, Djavad Salehi-Isfahani, and Ali Vaez Joint Comprehensive Plan of Action [https://2009-2017.state.gov/e/eb/tfs/spi/iran/jcpoa/] Book Recommendations: Persians [https://www.hachettebookgroup.com/titles/lloyd-llewellyn-jones/persians/9781541600355/?lens=basic-books] by Lloyd Llewellyn-Jones The Mantle of the Prophet [https://oneworld-publications.com/work/the-mantle-of-the-prophet/] by Roy P. Mottahedeh Tomorrow Is Yesterday [https://us.macmillan.com/books/9781250417763/tomorrowisyesterday/] by Hussein Agha and Robert Malley Thoughts? Guest suggestions? Email us at ezrakleinshow@nytimes.com. You can find transcripts (posted midday) and more episodes of “The Ezra Klein Show” at nytimes.com/ezra-klein-podcast [https://www.nytimes.com/column/ezra-klein-podcast], and you can find Ezra on Twitter @ezraklein. Book recommendations from all our guests are listed at https://www.nytimes.com/article/ezra-klein-show-book-recs [https://www.nytimes.com/article/ezra-klein-show-book-recs.html]. This episode of “The Ezra Klein Show” was produced by Jack McCordick. Fact-checking by Michelle Harris with Kate Sinclair. Our senior engineer is Jeff Geld, with additional mixing by Isaac Jones and Aman Sahota. Our executive producer is Claire Gordon. The show’s production team also includes Marie Cascione, Annie Galvin, Rollin Hu, Kristin Lin, Emma Kehlbeck, Marina King and Jan Kobal. Original music by Aman Sahota and Pat McCusker. Audience strategy by Kristina Samulewski and Shannon Busta. The director of New York Times Opinion Audio is Annie-Rose Strasser. Subscribe today at nytimes.com/podcasts [http://nytimes.com/podcasts] or on Apple Podcasts and Spotify. You can also subscribe via your favorite podcast app here https://www.nytimes.com/activate-access/audio?source=podcatcher [https://www.nytimes.com/activate-access/audio?source=podcatcher]. For more podcasts and narrated articles, download The New York Times app at nytimes.com/app. Hosted by Simplecast, an AdsWizz company. See pcm.adswizz.com [https://pcm.adswizz.com] for information about our collection and use of personal data for advertising.

I Asked a Former Trump Official to Justify This War

I’m opposed to this war. The Trump administration did not consult the American public or try to persuade Congress before authorizing the strikes on Iran. I don’t think the administration is prepared for what the strikes might unleash. But I wanted to try to understand President Trump’s decisions from the perspective of somebody much friendlier to his foreign policy. Nadia Schadlow is a senior fellow at the Hudson Institute and served as a deputy national security adviser during Trump’s first term. She led the drafting and publication of the 2017 National Security Strategy of the United States. In this conversation, Schadlow gives the conservative case for war with Iran, and for attacking without first building support in Congress or with the public. And I ask her how she squares Trump the candidate, who ran on a promise of not starting new wars, with the Trump of today, who’s deposed two heads of state since the start of 2026, and now says he won’t rule out boots on the ground in Iran. Is there a consistent worldview here? Or did Trump change? Mentioned: “National Security Strategy of the United States of America [https://www.whitehouse.gov/wp-content/uploads/2025/12/2025-National-Security-Strategy.pdf]” War and the Art of Governance [https://press.georgetown.edu/Book/War-and-the-Art-of-Governance] by Nadia Schadlow “The Globalist Delusion [https://www.foreignaffairs.com/united-states/globalist-delusion-nadia-schadlow]” by Nadia Schadlow “The Great Lie of War [https://www.nytimes.com/2026/03/03/opinion/ezra-klein-podcast-ben-rhodes.html]” with Ben Rhodes on “The Ezra Klein Show” Book Recommendations: America in the World [https://www.hachettebookgroup.com/titles/robert-b-zoellick/america-in-the-world/9781538712368/?lens=twelve] by Robert B. Zoellick The Mystery of Capital [https://www.hachettebookgroup.com/titles/hernando-de-soto/the-mystery-of-capital/9780465016150/?lens=basic-books] by Hernando De Soto The Peacemaker [https://www.penguinrandomhouse.com/books/617503/the-peacemaker-by-william-inboden/] by William Inboden Demon Copperhead [https://www.harpercollins.com/products/demon-copperhead-barbara-kingsolver?variant=40073146204194] by Barbara Kingsolver Thoughts? Guest suggestions? Email us at ezrakleinshow@nytimes.com. You can find transcripts (posted midday) and more episodes of “The Ezra Klein Show” at nytimes.com/ezra-klein-podcast [https://www.nytimes.com/column/ezra-klein-podcast], and you can find Ezra on Twitter @ezraklein. Book recommendations from all our guests are listed at https://www.nytimes.com/article/ezra-klein-show-book-recs [https://www.nytimes.com/article/ezra-klein-show-book-recs.html]. This episode of “The Ezra Klein Show” was produced by Annie Galvin. Fact-checking by Michelle Harris with Mary Marge Locker and Kate Sinclair. Our senior engineer is Jeff Geld, with additional mixing by Aman Sahota. Our executive producer is Claire Gordon. The show’s production team also includes Marie Cascione, Rollin Hu, Kristin Lin, Emma Kehlbeck, Jack McCordick, Marina King and Jan Kobal. Original music by Pat McCusker. Audience strategy by Kristina Samulewski and Shannon Busta. The director of New York Times Opinion Audio is Annie-Rose Strasser. Subscribe today at nytimes.com/podcasts [http://nytimes.com/podcasts] or on Apple Podcasts and Spotify. You can also subscribe via your favorite podcast app here https://www.nytimes.com/activate-access/audio?source=podcatcher [https://www.nytimes.com/activate-access/audio?source=podcatcher]. For more podcasts and narrated articles, download The New York Times app at nytimes.com/app. Hosted by Simplecast, an AdsWizz company. See pcm.adswizz.com [https://pcm.adswizz.com] for information about our collection and use of personal data for advertising.