S2E3: Beyond the Checkbox: Reimagining DEI

S2E3: Beyond the Checkbox: Reimagining DEI

In this season’s final episode of Belonging@Haas, host Abbey Mui interviews Eric Muñoz Hernández, an MBA candidate at UC Berkeley Haas School of Business, about the future of Diversity, Equity, Inclusion, Justice, and Belonging (DEIJB), and those topics are then used to springboard a discussion between Abbey and expert guests Lex Glaude, a PhD Candidate in Business Administration at UC Berkeley Haas, and Alexandra Figueroa, a Postdoctoral scholar for the MORS group at UC Berkeley Haas School of Business. Abbey is able to get some good insights on how DEI efforts can remain impactful and authentic in today’s climate. The episode tackles topics like the importance of inclusive environments, avoiding tokenistic practices, and the significance of consistency in DEI commitments. Their conversations aim to reimagine DEI's role, addressing both challenges and opportunities while providing expert advice for sustaining genuine and equitable practices in educational institutions and the corporate world. Join us now for the culmination of our three-episode series, as we look forward to the future. Belonging at Haas Podcast is produced by University FM. This episode was also produced by JC Chen. Developed in partnership with the Haas MBA Student Government Association. EPISODE QUOTES: True inclusion begins when everyone feels safe being themselves [03:10] Eric Muñoz Hernández: Inclusion isn't just about who's in the room, but about whether people feel safe being themselves once they're there. How Eric envisions the next generation of DEI efforts. [07:37] Eric Muñoz Hernández: The next generation of DEI has to focus on design, not really slogans because we've done the awareness phase. Now it's really about systems. So how are we designing, recruiting and even classrooms so that inclusion is built in and not added on? So across the country, some schools are rebranding DEI as belonging or community. While the words might change, the purpose shouldn't. So the real future of the work is collaboration between students, faculty, and even the industry to try to create environments that reflect the diversity of the world we're preparing to lead in.  Rethinking how we hire [18:22] Lex Glaude: Everyone has different strengths and talents, and I think it's important that we look at these different traits and be a little bit more inclusive in how we define and look at performance management. The reason behind the DEI backlash according to research. [14:30] Alex Figueroa: The research on backlash for DEI indicates that backlash is largely driven by zero-sum perspectives, or the perspective that DEI policies somehow take away resources from majority groups. SHOW LINKS: * Efe Edevbie | LinkedIn [https://www.linkedin.com/in/efe-edevbie/] * Abbey Mui | LinkedIn [https://www.linkedin.com/in/abbey-mui/] * JC Chen | LinkedIn [https://www.linkedin.com/in/jeff-jc-chen/] * Eric Muñoz Hernández | LinkedIn [https://www.linkedin.com/in/eric-munoz-hernandez/] * Lex Glaude | LinkedIn [https://www.linkedin.com/in/analexis-glaude/] * Alexandra Figueroa | LinkedIn [https://www.linkedin.com/in/alexandra-figueroa-6031a995/]

S2E2: Global Issues, Intersecting Identities

As this season of Belonging@Haas continues, this episode’s host Jenny Linger interviews Chidera Osuji and Larissa Calixto, MBA candidates at UC Berkeley Haas School of Business, about how diversity, equity, inclusion, justice, and belonging (DEIJB) intersect with climate and sustainability issues. Then Jenny checks in with Alvaro Sanchez, former Vice President of Policy at The Greenlining Institute, for his thoughts on the discussion and insights from his experience in the field. This conversation covers both personal and global perspectives, with Chidera and Larissa sharing from their own experiences in sustainability and social impact, and how these topics are intertwined with inclusion, justice, and belonging. Alvaro contributes from his work experience in climate policy and explains the importance of equity in building a prosperous future. Together, they explore the importance of representation and the critical need for inclusive leadership in approaching global issues. Belonging at Haas Podcast is produced by University FM. This episode was also produced by Jenny Linger. Developed in partnership with the Haas MBA Student Government Association. EPISODE QUOTES: Chidera opens up about how her inner narratives and the nuances of belonging held her back from  taking up space. [22:06] Chidera Osuji: I constantly thought to myself, everyone around me is so much better. They're handling everything. They're able to keep up [with] the academics. They know what's going on. Why am I here? And like someone made a mistake, and everyone must be aware of it because I feel that so deeply I'm not supposed to be here. And that feeling has followed me in a lot of spaces, including at times at Haas. Again, not because of anything anyone says, but because those are some of the narratives I've internalized based on what you see in media or how other people seem to carry themselves. And sometimes you anchor onto the details that are not the ones that are meant for you to succeed. And I'm trying to reframe and anchor on the ones that would support me and reaffirm my existence or my being in a space. But that's a journey that's going to take a long time, and I'm trying to, in this season, lean into community to affirm me and also build that internal affirmation, internal validation, because a lot of harm can be done when you look externally, within reason, because we are living within the systemic realities. But at the same time, there's a lot of internal work that can be done to set you up to deal more effectively with the realities that exist outside of yourself. Changing the world starts with taking care of yourself. [27:51] Larissa Calixto: From my lived experience working in grassroots movements and in the nonprofit sector, I came to realize that trying to change the world while ignoring my own well-being was not sustainable many, many times. And that I could not pour from an empty cup. So I don't really know how to do this. I think it's easy to say but hard to do, but I'm learning, and I think we really need to set boundaries, protect our joy, our rituals, build community, and have the confidence that the problems won't disappear overnight. But if we take care of ourselves along the way, we can better keep contributing for the long run. Why bridging people matters in finding the solutions we need. [33:33] Alvaro Sanchez: We always have to be thinking about bridging because it's not just about making it easier for someone else to cross to another path. Sometimes it's about bringing those that have the solutions closer to the problem so that we can actually get to the solutions that we need. On speaking up and taking space for yourself and others when none exists. [38:51] Alvaro Sanchez: Space often is not going to be made for you. You're going to have to create it yourself. But that's why you need a strong network, for that network to be cheering you on and be telling you that you have something important to say and that you should be able to say it. I think try to avoid being in silos and echo chambers. It's not helpful when everybody around you is telling you that's the right answer all the time. Some level of doubt, I think, is helpful for the work that we're trying to do. Real diversity is critical for us to be successful, and diversity doesn't happen just because everyone around us is telling us the same thing. It actually happens when someone around us says something different. SHOW LINKS: * Jenny Linger | LinkedIn [https://www.linkedin.com/in/jenny-linger/] * Chidera Osuji | LinkedIn [https://www.linkedin.com/in/chidera-osuji/] * Larissa Calixto | LinkedIn [https://www.linkedin.com/in/larissacalixto/] * Alvaro Sanchez | LinkedIn [https://www.linkedin.com/in/alvarossanchez/]

S2E1: DEI Myths & Misconceptions

In this episode of Belonging@Haas, host Efe Edevbie interviews Niko Ortega, an MBA candidate at UC Berkeley Haas School of Business, about common misconceptions about Diversity, Equity, and Inclusion (DEI) and then they gain insight from Derek Brown, an assistant professor of management at Columbia Business School, about the evolving landscape of DEI. Their discussion examines the historical context of DEI, the shift in cultural and political climates, the concept of zero-sum thinking, and the complexities of meritocracy within organizations and universities to see how DEI theory translates into practice, and discuss why DEI is not just a moral imperative but also a strategic advantage. Belonging at Haas Podcast is produced by University FM. This episode was also produced by Efe Edevbie. Developed in partnership with the Haas MBA Student Government Association. EPISODE QUOTES: Derek shares a bit of his research and thoughts on zero sum thinking [13:11] Derek Brown: In my work, I largely find that zero-sum thinking, or perceiving that certain policies and practices operate in a zero-sum manner, is tethered to one's group membership, and so it is advantage group members. The idea that you have more opportunity or greater access to resources, whatever resource that is, and seeing evidence of that, but now seeing a policy that provides more to another group, even though it doesn't affect your group, it's like that information that, oh, I know that I have more access, and I can see what's happening here. I know that maybe I'm not monetarily economically being harmed, but it feels like I have less than. And that's maybe about one source of zero-sum thinking. But I don't even know empirically that my data can support that that's where it starts, and so there's a lot of things to do, questions to answer about where these things, where these beliefs come from. Meritocracy is malleable and largely subjective.  [23:46] Derek Brown: Meritocracy is largely a myth based on the decisions that are being made. And it's a myth because a lot of it is being relied on biased metrics in an academic setting, in a lot of universities.  How Haas’s admissions process goes beyond scores and resumes.  [28:44] Niko Ortega: One of the nice things about the Haas application process [is that] I felt that, by and large, most of the other schools I applied to were pretty standard, asking me more or less the same questions and a few things regarding the culture of the institution. But I actually felt like Haas took the intentional effort to ask, Hey, like what is your story? What do you care about? What shaped who you are today? And I found that really profound because, oh, they actually are seeing me as a person and for who I am, what I can bring to this institution, my lived experiences, and what I want to do. And I felt like many of the other schools didn't take that extra step to actually get to know students. And I think, again, we can't really use these simple heuristics, right? To kind of ultimately determine who's going to be successful or not. We rely on them because again, they're easy, and we don't have algorithms to work with, right? But if we can actually factor in these intangible things that don't show up on a test score or a resume of grid, of determination, right? Overcoming hardship, having empathy. These are things that I think can ultimately distinguish people that are going to make outsized contributions to their communities, right?  Diversity sparks curiosity.  [42:37] Niko Ortega: When you are in diverse settings and rooms of different backgrounds, lived experiences, that’s when you’re curious, when your mind starts picking, oh why is this different? Why does the world work this way? So, I think it’s an added benefit.  SHOW LINKS: * Efe Edevbie | LinkedIn [https://www.linkedin.com/in/efe-edevbie/] * Niko Ortega | LinkedIn [https://www.linkedin.com/in/nikolas-ortega/] * Derek Brown | Website [https://www.nderekbrown.com/] * Derek Brown | Columbia Business School [https://business.columbia.edu/faculty/people/derek-brown] * Derek Brown | LinkedIn [https://www.linkedin.com/in/ndbrown16/]

Episode 3: Opening Doors, Not Checking Boxes: Rethinking DEI Hiring Practices

In this episode of Belonging@Haas, Brittany Jacob has a conversation with MBA student Camila Duque about diversity hiring pipelines in MBA programs and at universities. Camila shares her journey through pre-MBA programs and her experience landing a position at McKinsey. Brittany then consults with Rachel Williams, a DEI executive, about her reactions to Camila’s segment, and on her perspective on diversity, equity, and inclusion in the workplace. The conversation aims to break down misconceptions and highlight the importance and benefits of fostering diversity in business environments. *Belonging at Haas Podcast is produced by University FM.* Show Producer: Ryan Jewe, Race Inclusion Initiative  Developed in partnership with the Haas MBA Student Government Association SHOW LINKS: * Brittany Jacob’s LinkedIn [https://www.linkedin.com/in/brittanyjacob/] * Brittany Jacob’s Instagram [https://www.instagram.com/brittanyjjacob/?hl=en] * Camila Duque’s LinkedIn [https://www.linkedin.com/in/duque-maria-camila/] * Rachel Williams’s LinkedIn [https://www.linkedin.com/in/rachwill/] * Pew Research: Americans and affirmative action: How the public sees the consideration of race in college admissions, hiring [https://www.pewresearch.org/short-reads/2023/06/16/americans-and-affirmative-action-how-the-public-sees-the-consideration-of-race-in-college-admissions-hiring/] * How DEI Can Survive This Era of Backlash [https://hbr.org/2024/09/how-dei-can-survive-this-era-of-backlash] * Toppling the Myth of Meritocracy [https://news.harvard.edu/gazette/story/2021/01/the-myth-of-meritocracy-according-to-michael-sandel/] * The Myth of Meritocracy Runs Deep in American History [https://thereader.mitpress.mit.edu/the-myth-of-meritocracy-runs-deep-in-american-history/] EPISODE QUOTES: Landing the job at McKinsey and overcoming self-doubt and imposter syndrome  [Brittany] Did you experience any comments [or] negative sentiments from others about diversity recruiting programs when they found out that Cami got McKinsey? [Camila] I didn't really experience any negative comments or any comments at all that were top of mind. But that's also because I didn't tell a lot of people outside of my close friends and the people from the consortium that I had got in it. And I think one of the reasons why I didn't tell people was first, because I was afraid of negative backlash, and what you're alluding to that people would question the reason why I got into this was because I participated in this program and not because of merit and people would talk behind my back. And then this is a general sentiment from all MBAs and everyone that we feel a lot of imposter syndrome, and I do feel that, and I do struggle with that a lot and the self-doubt of do I belong here? Am I good enough? And I just wanted to tune that out because I knew that the reason why I got in is because I worked my butt off and not because there was any help that I received. It's just a different pipeline to get into the same type of job. And so that's how I reframed that for myself. Camila’s vision to break stereotypes in professional spaces [13:56] We need to start breaking stereotypes that have traditionally been placed upon people that are not from the U.S. and work on getting through to the fact that we are just as capable as everybody else.  Do companies lower their hiring standards when recruiting candidates through DEI initiatives? [16:50 ] The companies are not going to lower their standards, and they're not going to lower their brand just to tick a box. If they were, then the company would not be the way that they are, and the success that they've achieved would not be because of that. When you think about lowering the bar, the thing that we're not seeing here is that the bar is already broken, in a sense. It's not even about raising the bar or lowering the bar; it's like you need to fix the bar, and that's where the pipeline issue comes in. When you address where all these people are coming from, where all the talent is coming from, you realize that it's not just Ivy League schools that have the best talent. Sure, they have some talent, but other people have that talent too. And so it's just like reframing where they get that from. The interviews are the same; they’re not telling managers, “oh, give them a break” or whoever partners are interviewing you– the cases are standardized across. It's not a matter of easy or difficult. It’s like, okay, you have an opportunity because we see something in you, and that’s how you are able to get in.  Businesses that ignore diversity won’t last a decade. [26:35] Rachel Williams: What I try and tell leaders [is] that you should care about diversity because it is paramount to your business. If you make a product that you want everyone to buy and I don't know anyone who's like, Oh, I only want a small portion of the world to buy this. Most companies are building products that they would love for every single human on the planet to buy because that means more revenue. And if that is true, then you absolutely have to have a diverse workforce, a diverse team building your product so that you're making sure it is inclusive of all of the perspectives. And when you have a diverse team, you're going to come up with really innovative and creative ideas that are going to impact your product and impact your bottom line. So, I say, if you're not interested in diversity in this particular moment as a leader or as a company, then you're absolutely planning to be out of business in the next 10 to 15 years.

Episode 2: Bridging Cultures: Exploring Nuances Between International and Domestic Students

In this episode of Belonging@Haas, Brittany Jacob hosts a conversation between MBA students Ken Mizuno and Tori Fukumitsu, who share their unique cultural identities and personal journeys as Asian and Asian American students at Haas. The discussion delves into the differences and similarities in their experiences, the impact of stereotypes, and the importance of fostering true inclusivity and belonging within the Haas community.   Brittany then gains insights from Dr. Janine Lee, an expert in Diversity, Equity, Inclusion, Justice, and Belonging (DEIJB), who elaborates on Ken and Tori’s conversation, and the challenges and strategies for dealing with code-switching, combating microaggressions, and promoting empathy in diverse environments. *Belonging at Haas Podcast is produced by University FM.* Show Producer: Travis Bautista, Race Inclusion Initiative  Developed in partnership with the Haas MBA Student Government Association SHOW LINKS: * Brittany Jacob’s LinkedIn [https://www.linkedin.com/in/brittanyjacob/] * Brittany Jacob’s Instagram [https://www.instagram.com/brittanyjjacob/?hl=en] * Ken Mizuno’s LinkedIn [https://www.linkedin.com/in/ken-mizuno-444569163/] * Tori Fukumitsu’s LinkedIn [https://www.linkedin.com/in/torifukumitsu/] * Dr. Janine Lee’s Haas Profile [https://haas.berkeley.edu/faculty/janine-lee/] * Dr. Janine Lee’s Instagram [https://www.instagram.com/drjaninelee/] * Dr. Janine Lee’s Website [https://janinelee.com/] * The Culture Map: Breaking Through the Invisible Boundaries of Global Business [https://erinmeyer.com/books/the-culture-map/] EPISODE QUOTES: Stereotypes pressure individuals like Ken and Tori to meet societal expectations, often at the expense of embracing their true selves. [13:30] Ken Mizuno: Stereotype expectation for me is "Oh, you're Japanese. You're [a] punctual, tidy person. You like sushi, anime, not speaking up in the meeting, not directly saying something.” That's, I think, [the] typical expectation or bias towards Japanese people in general. And that influenced my obligation to be like Japanese. I mean, I'm not that kind of person, but I sometimes pretend [to be a] super Japanese person, to be super polite, but I'm actually not so punctual, honestly. Sometimes, that's not my real figure. After getting used to the lifestyle in the United States, I try to be more true [to] myself, a bit beyond the expectations. The harmful effect of stereotypes among Asians and Asian-Americans [15:05] Tori Fukumitsu: Often, it feels like Asians are grouped together or considered as a monolith, that we all enjoy the same things, we all have similar interests, we all have certain behaviors that we exhibit. And I think the reality is that, not only are the countries so different across all these different countries, but within that, there's so much nuance in identity, in heritage, in culture, and in an individual. And I think the harmful effect of this is that I think this is potentially one of those pieces that's slightly different is that, in the U.S., there are a lot of stereotypes around Asian men, in particular being seen as more meek or seen as less assertive. And it's tied to this idea, I think of the bamboo ceiling as well, that essentially Asian Americans, and in our cases, Asian American men, can't advance past certain levels in their careers, in part because they're lacking some inherent skill or ability to be more confident or more assertive, or more dominant when that's what's required in business settings, for example. Tori suggests approaching relationships with authentic inquiry and curiosity as a way to foster understanding across cultures. [22:30]  Tori Fukumitsu: I think there's a bit of a framework at times, and I should say I think of this because I think I fall into it, too. A framework around expertise as it comes to identity that you're either on one end or the other. Either like an expert on identity, or you're a novice or someone who doesn't have expertise. And I think, instead, it's more like we're all learning about what it means to be our different identities. We're all exploring that. It's not that there's like a true Asian or a true American or true Japanese necessarily. There can't be because there's so much diversity within that. So, I think of how often I need to personally not just diminish what I've experienced as, oh, that's not Japanese, or that's not Chinese American, or that's not Chinese because I didn't grow up in China, but rather like, oh, there are things about my unique experience that speak to something that perhaps someone else might not be able to speak to, or they can, but to not think of it as such a binary. Dr. Janine Lee addresses how the perception of Asian Americans or Asians as a monolithic group impacts their well-being. [29:13] Part of this juggling, this dual identity, becomes a bit of code-switching. Code-switching, if you're not aware, is the practice of changing languages or dialects within a single conversation. And it's how someone adjusts how they present themselves in different contexts. So, being Asian American or being Asian, you might be adjusting depending on the population that you're hanging out with. And from a well-being perspective, it can be really tiring. It's like multitasking your personality and going back and forth from different identities.