Belonging is Not a Funnel

Pain in the Neck Marketing

A pillow that took six years to build, a third of your life to use, and one conversation to reframe — what happens when you've got a genuinely great product but the pricing, positioning, and place are all pulling in different directions? Siri Schubert-Nicolella [https://www.linkedin.com/in/siri-schubert-nicolella-50a10344/] is a wellness expert, bodywork practitioner, and the creator of a contoured natural latex pillow she designed from scratch — hand-carved with her husband in their home before finding a manufacturer — to address the epidemic of neck pain, TMJ dysfunction, and sleep disruption she was seeing in her clinical practice every day. She's got the expertise. She's got the product. Now she needs the brand strategy to match. This episode is a live working session in the truest sense: Ethan and Siri roll up their sleeves on one of the most common and most underestimated challenges in brand-building — figuring out your offering. Not just the product. The whole thing. And why getting the four P's wrong means even the best product in the world doesn't find its people. MAIN TOPICS COVERED * The Offering Problem — why product alone isn't enough, and how Product, Price, Place, and Promotion have to work together as a system before any of them can work at all * The "energetically good price" test — Siri's honest gut check about whether she can say her price to a customer without cringing, and what that signals about brand confidence and positioning clarity * Natural latex vs. memory foam — the product story hiding in plain sight: how latex is harvested from trees, turned into a soufflé of a pillow, and why that story is the justification for the premium price point * The Goop-to-Walmart spectrum — why "online" isn't one place, and how two buyers at opposite ends of the market both shop on the internet but want completely different things * Economy, Mass, Premium, Luxury — the four market positions, and why landing in the right tier requires everything else in the mix to match (as Ethan explains from the Applied Brand Science framework: "if you're a premium brand, your merch should be Yeti, not cheap no-name stuff") * The FDA detour question — the appeal of going the medical device route, and why that steep regulatory hill might not lead to the ideal customer anyway * Two paths forward — high-end wellness retail (think spas, boutique health studios, and Boulder's own backyard of health-conscious buyers) vs. licensing the patent to a medical company with doctor relationships already built ADDITIONAL RESOURCES * Cradle Wave Pillow -https://cradlewavepillow.com [https://cradlewavepillow.com] * Florence and the Machine — Cornflake Girl (Tori Amos cover): find it on the Cover Brand Covers Playlist on Spotify [https://open.spotify.com/playlist/6h4QzTqrtn9DIAPvdn1iCI?si=1utllF5fR-qy-DIi6uxH-A] You might not have a pricing problem; you might have an offering problem. The price is just where it shows up. If this episode made you look at your own product differently — whether you're a founder, a practitioner, or someone who's been putting all their energy into promo while the other three P's quietly undermine everything — share it with someone who needs the reality check. Subscribe to Cover Brand, dig into the frameworks at appliedbrandscience.com [https://appliedbrandscience.com/], and come back next week for more of this. Produced by BiCurean.com [https://www.bicurean.com/] ---------------------------------------- Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy [https://acast.com/privacy] for more information.

Holistic Marketing

Every few years, someone slaps a new name on the same old thing — and suddenly there's a conference, a certification, and software to go with it. Is account-based marketing actually a discipline, or is it just marketing with a better LinkedIn bio? And if you can't describe what you do without a subgenre, is the subgenre helping you — or just hiding the ball? Laura Dodds [https://www.linkedin.com/in/laurakdodds/] is a digital marketing and demand generation leader and problem-solver-for-hire. She's back on Cover Brand after her breakout run on the On Brand with Jimmy Fallon series for a proper shop talk: the practitioner-level debate about what actually moves the needle in marketing versus what's just posturing dressed up in a framework. The episode covers the proliferation of marketing subgenres, when a new name is genuinely useful versus just tree-peeing, and why starting with the goal and the customer will always beat starting with the system. MAIN TOPICS COVERED * Cover song: "Happier Than Ever" (Loveless cover of Billie Eilish) — Laura's thesis: every song is better as a pop punk cover. Ethan is skeptical. The jury remains out. * What Laura actually does — why she resists a tidy job description, and what "marketing problem solver" looks like in practice * The case against marketing subgenres — ABM, growth hacking, lifecycle marketing, demand gen: are these real disciplines or just old ideas in new clothes? * When a new name is actually worth it — shopper marketing, digital marketing, and the cases where the label earns its keep * Why marketers keep inventing subgenres — vendors, academics, analysts, and the very human need to pee on a tree * Laws vs. Levers at Applied Brand Science — how to separate what's always true from what depends on your situation * Holistic marketing, TM — Laura coins a term live on mic, immediately regrets it, and Ethan leans right in ADDITIONAL RESOURCES * Laura Dodds — LinkedIn [https://www.linkedin.com/in/laurakdodds/] (search Laura Dodds, Houston TX) * Cover Brand Covers Playlist on Spotify — Listen here [https://open.spotify.com/playlist/6h4QzTqrtn9DIAPvdn1iCI?si=a8GqPlxYQXm_L9Am1OXCvQ] * Cover Brand: On Brand with Jimmy Fallon series — search the Cover Brand feed The framework isn't the strategy — it's just someone else's tree. Start with the goal. Start with the customer. Everything else is a lever. Subscribe to Cover Brand wherever you get your podcasts, share it with the colleague who just forwarded you a deck full of ABM jargon, and go deeper at appliedbrandscience.com [https://appliedbrandscience.com/]. Produced by BiCurean.com [https://bicurean.com/] ---------------------------------------- Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy [https://acast.com/privacy] for more information.

The Say-Do- Gap

This week Ethan chats with John Pabon [https://www.linkedin.com/in/johnpabon/]. John is a sustainability strategist, former McKinsey and UN consultant, and author of three books including The Great Greenwashing and the just-released Strategic Sustainability: A Pragmatic Blueprint for Responsible Business. This episode digs into one of the most stubborn gaps in brand communication: the chasm between what companies say about their values and what consumers actually do at the shelf. Ethan and John work through the tension live — from a Walmart factory program in China that used sex ed to boost productivity, to Patagonia's window display that leads with "everything we make pollutes," to why the 10% of survey respondents who say they don't care about the polar bears might be the most honest people in the room. Main Topics Covered * Speak their language or don't speak — the fundamental rule of sustainability consulting: if you can't frame it as a business problem, nobody's listening. "Save the polar bears" doesn't open doors. Lost productivity does. * Radical transparency as brand strategy — Patagonia's "everything we make pollutes," Avis's "we try harder," and Buckley's cough syrup ("it tastes terrible and that's why it works") — the brands that lead with the bad news are the ones that earn trust * The headline is the whole game — a riff on Porsche, Rolls Royce, and Guinness and why nobody reads below the fold — your headline better say the whole thing * Atlassian, Williams F1, and the private jet problem — Mike Cannon-Brooks buys an F1 team and the sustainability world erupts, until he explains why. The lesson: getting out in front isn't enough. You have to explain the why or you've lost them anyway. * The Great Greenwashing — John's second book dissects how brands, governments, celebrities, and individuals all do it — and why the companies investing millions into how to lie to you would make more money just fixing the problem * The say-do gap, live — why the survey that says your customers care about sustainability is the survey that will get you delisted in six months. Clorox Greenworks. End caps. Zero velocity. * The 10% who don't care about the polar bears — why they're the most honest respondents in any focus group, and why converting them might be the smarter campaign target than preaching to the choir * Nike Considered and the long game — Ethan's firsthand account of a glue-free sneaker that screamed eco, the first Prius, and Nike's 20-year bet that sustainability would eventually just be baked into every Pegasus at Dick's Sporting Goods — invisible, assumed, default * Where this all lands in 15 years — John's prediction: sustainable products become the baseline, the companies that aren't playing ball are already dinosaurs, and the consumer won't have to think about it at all Additional Resources * Keep up with John at his website johnpabon.com [https://johnpabon.com/] * Cover Brand Covers Playlist on Spotify [https://open.spotify.com/playlist/6h4QzTqrtn9DIAPvdn1iCI?si=1utllF5fR-qy-DIi6uxH-A] You can't sell products on a dead planet — and you can't build a brand on a lie that people can already see through. The smarter play has always been honesty. It just takes more guts than most brand teams are willing to bring to the brief. If this one made you rethink how your brand talks about the stuff it's not proud of, share it with the person in your org who needs to hear it most. Subscribe to Cover Brand, go deeper at appliedbrandscience.com [https://appliedbrandscience.com/], and come back next week. Produced by BiCurean.com [https://bicurean.com/] ---------------------------------------- Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy [https://acast.com/privacy] for more information.

The Two-Body Problem

Two brands, one expert, and a mission that makes being the expert feel like a contradiction — how do you build something institutional out of something that personal? Carmell Clark is an executive coach with 25+ years of experience, creator of the Core Self-Discovery curriculum, and founder of the Center for Transformational Influence (CTI) — an organization built to help individuals and companies break free from unhealthy deference to authority. This episode digs into one of the trickiest brand architecture challenges out there: how do you grow a personal brand into an institutional one when your whole philosophy is against the cult of personality? Ethan and Carmell work through the tension live — exploring brand equity, the psychology of followership, and what it actually takes to step into the spotlight you built to dismantle. MAIN TOPICS COVERED * The CTI Paradox — running an organization whose mission is to dismantle guru culture while being, unavoidably, its charismatic and credentialed founder * Brand Architecture 101: Personal Brand vs. Institutional Brand — when to run them in parallel, and when the personal brand has to come first * Why most humans are wired to follow, not lead — the evolutionary case for followership, Derek Sivers' 3-minute TED Talk "How to Start a Movement," and why fighting this truth will make you "clenched and bitter" * The Geico Gecko Principle — how a cockney-accented lizard tripled a business, and what that tells you about how little people actually want to think about brands * Brené Brown, Nancy Duarte, and the Receding Founder — a playbook for how expert-led brands eventually outgrow their founders: Duarte, Decker Communications, Bain, Ford, Philip Morris — names on the door first, institutions later * Tony Robbins vs. Richard Branson: two models for founder-led brands — the spectrum from "Oprah, Oprah, Oprah" to "Virgin Everything" and where CTI might land * "Suck it up, buttercup" — the advice Carmell didn't want but needed — embrace the spotlight to teach people how to hold power without being consumed by it; use yourself as the living case study * Audre Lorde on privilege and power — and why the answer isn't to minimize your influence but to step into it consciously, then use it to give power back * The path forward for CTI — Carmell Clark front and center now, CTI built deliberately in the background, until the brand is the thing and Carmell is the lore 4. ADDITIONAL RESOURCES * Carmell Clark: carmellclark.com [https://carmellclark.com/] * Brené Brown: brenebrown.com [https://brenebrown.com/] * Nancy Duarte / Duarte Inc.: duarte.com [https://duarte.com/] — Slideology and Resonate * Derek Sivers — "How to Start a Movement": ted.com/talks/derek_sivers_how_to_start_a_movement [https://www.ted.com/talks/derek_sivers_how_to_start_a_movement] * Monty Python's Life of Brian — you know where to find it * Crucial Conversations [https://bookshop.org/a/90423/9781260474183](Harvard Negotiation Project) * Cover Brand Covers Playlist on Spotify: Cover Brand Covers Playlist [https://open.spotify.com/playlist/6h4QzTqrtn9DIAPvdn1iCI?si=1utllF5fR-qy-DIi6uxH-A] You can't build an institution out of yourself if you keep fighting the fact that you're the institution. Step into it. Use it. That's how the work gets further. If this episode made you tilt your head — whether you're a coach, a founder, or a brand trying to outgrow its creator — share it with someone who needs to hear it. Subscribe to Cover Brand, explore the frameworks at appliedbrandscience.com [https://appliedbrandscience.com/], and come back next week for more of this. Produced by BiCurean.com [https://bicurean.com/] ---------------------------------------- Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy [https://acast.com/privacy] for more information.

Belonging is Not a Funnel

What if the reason your marketing isn't landing isn't your message — it's that you're still treating people like targets instead of humans? In this episode of Cover Brand, Ethan Decker welcomes back Chelsea Burns, brand ethicist and relational psychologist at The Marketing Psychologist [https://themarketingpsychologist.co/]. Chelsea's work sits at the intersection of consumer neuroscience, relational psychology, and ethical influence — and she's got a bone to pick with the way business strips the human out of everything, starting with the word "leads." Together, Ethan and Chelsea explore why 95% of brand decisions happen underground, why trust is never a checkbox, and what it actually takes to build a brand people don't just buy from — but belong to. If you've ever wondered why your customers say one thing and do another, or why a brand that seemed bulletproof can lose its audience almost overnight, this episode will reframe how you think about the relationship between brand and buyer. Main Topics Covered * Chelsea's core thesis: business dehumanizes by default — and why "leads," "targets," and "consumers" are symptoms of a deeper problem * Why 95% of brand decisions happen in the subconscious limbic system, and what that means for how you build mental availability with buyers * The tree metaphor: brand is the root system (underground, sensed but unseen); marketing is the trunk and branches — you can't have healthy growth without healthy roots * Chelsea's four-pillar Belong Brand framework: Consent → Reciprocity → Trust → Belonging — and why stopping at "trusted brand" is like finishing three legs of a relay race * Fake countdown timers, inflated "original prices," and urgency manipulation — why these tactics shatter consent and what they signal to buyers about your real intentions * Robert Cialdini's principle of reciprocity from Influence: The Psychology of Persuasion — and why a garbage lead magnet is the opposite of an equal value exchange * Why trust is never a checkbox — every touchpoint is either building it or breaking it, and the Edelman Trust Barometer isn't telling us anything snake oil salesmen didn't already know in 1880 * Target's DEI retreat as a live case study in belonging collapse — when a brand flips the script, buyers don't just feel disappointed, they feel duped * VW's emissions scandal as the counterpoint — a massive trust breach, billions in damage, and yet currently the number one automaker in the world. Big brands have more foundation to absorb shocks. That doesn't mean you should test it. * The gap between stated values and actual behavior — why Gen Z says they'll only buy from values-aligned brands and then they're all on Temu and hitting Taco Bell for a $2 burrito * Ethan's leaky lazy brain framework: we don't read ingredient lists, we don't open the hood before buying a $50,000 car, and we absolutely do not read the manual after * Triple Stuff Oreos. We went there. Additional Resources * Chelsea Burns — themarketingpsychologist.co [https://themarketingpsychologist.co/] * Chelsea Burns on LinkedIn —https://www.linkedin.com/in/chelseaburns26/ [https://www.linkedin.com/in/chelseaburns26/] * Robert Cialdini, Influence: The Psychology of Persuasion [https://bookshop.org/a/90423/9780062937650]— the original framework behind ethical reciprocity * Edelman Trust Barometer — edelman.com/trust [https://www.edelman.com/trust] * Yuka app (referenced by Chelsea for scanning food ingredients) — yuka.io [https://yuka.io/en/] * Cover Brand Covers Playlist (Spotify) — featuring Imagine Dragons' "Blank Space" — Listen here [https://open.spotify.com/playlist/6h4QzTqrtn9DIAPvdn1iCI?si=MR0mZB_4T9S7O-qM8w9h1Q] Your buyers are not making rational decisions in a spreadsheet. They're running on leaky, lazy brains, shaped by emotion, context, and whether your brand makes them feel like the person they're trying to become. Build for that. Subscribe to Cover Brand for more insights into the world of branding and marketing, and head over to appliedbrandscience.com [https://appliedbrandscience.com/] to dig deeper into the science behind what actually drives brand growth. Produced by BiCurean.com [https://bicurean.com/] ---------------------------------------- Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy [https://acast.com/privacy] for more information.