Tribal Minds, Moral Lines, and Outrage!: The Psychology of Polarization w/ Dr. Kurt Gray

The Imperative of the Soul: How to Live Without Regrets & Build a Life of Courage and Service w/ Parker J. Palmer

Welcome to the Civic Courage Lab Podcast! Join Our Community and Receive Free Tools + How-to Guides: Sign up for "The Leader's Handbook" newsletter (scroll to bottom) https://www.civiccouragelab.com/#newsletter [https://www.civiccouragelab.com/#newsletter] * Always free * Once per month email * Curated selection of tools, techniques, and practices discussed on this podcast * Delivered in simple to follow how-to worksheets, videos, and audio guides * For you and your teams to try and test in your own life JOIN HERE [https://www.civiccouragelab.com/#newsletter] (scroll to bottom) Guest: Parker J. Palmer is the founder of the Center for Courage and Renewal [https://www.couragerenewal.org], a Quaker educator, activist, and author of ten books — including Let Your Life Speak, The Courage to Teach, A Hidden Wholeness, and Healing the Heart of Democracy — which have sold millions of copies and are taught everywhere from university seminars to MBA programs. Named by Teaching Tolerance as one of the nation's most influential voices in education, Parker has advised presidents, spoken at the White House, and shaped movements around leadership and integrity for over five decades — almost entirely without spectacle or self-promotion. At 87, he continues writing and thinking on Substack at Living the Questions with Parker J. Palmer [https://parkerjpalmer.substack.com]. He is a rare and true elder. About the Episode: This is the season one capstone — a little extra treat — of the Civic Courage Lab podcast, and there is no more fitting way to close this first chapter than with Parker J. Palmer. In this episode, I attempt to open-source Parker's prodigious wisdom and experience as an elder and mentor for you. In this wide-ranging conversation, we explore what it means to live without regret, how to hear and trust the inner voice that calls us toward our true work, and why the imperative of the soul — not ambition, not external pressure — is the only reliable compass for a meaningful life in public service. Parker shares the pivotal choices that defined his journey: walking away from a guaranteed academic career at 30 to become a community organizer, spending 11 years living under radical economic equality at Pendle Hill [https://pendlehill.org] Quaker community, navigating multiple serious depressions and ultimately writing openly about them, and now at nearly 87, harnessing anger toward life-giving ends — connection and democracy. This is a conversation about eldership, wholeness, and what it actually costs — and gives back — to lead from the inside out. Key Topics Discussed: * [00:01:50] Introducing Parker J. Palmer & the crisis of eldership * [00:10:18] What real mentorship looks like — a two-way dialogue * [00:15:25] The inner voice: first encounter in the 1960s at Berkeley * [00:18:14] Walking away from tenure to become a community organizer * [00:19:28] "I can't not do this" — following the imperatives of the soul * [00:21:20] Choosing risk over future regret * [00:23:32] How to help others listen to their own leadings * [00:24:39] The discipline of honest, open questions * [00:27:01] A Hidden Wholeness and evocative community * [00:29:02] Burning out and arriving at Pendle Hill * [00:30:34] 11 years of radical economic equality — and what it taught * [00:35:52] Circle learning, egalitarian education, and the evoking of inner gifts * [00:38:21] Mental health, burnout, and the definition of wellbeing * [00:40:25] Practices that amplify the inner voice — honesty, trusted community, nature * [00:44:32] Diet, sleep, exercise, and the woods of Minnesota * [00:47:34] The choice to stay at Pendle Hill — and why strategic withdrawal isn't retreat * [00:50:02] On living the imperatives of your soul vs. scuttling your convictions * [00:52:32] "I can't imagine a sadder way to die" — on showing up fully * [00:53:28] Has this path made you less afraid of death? * [00:58:03] Depression as a character in the movie of your life * [01:02:36] The person following you down the street — and what they want * [01:05:59] The hand of an enemy vs. the hand of a friend pressing you to ground * [01:09:40] Wholeness is not perfection — it's "all of the above" * [01:10:59] Why Parker chose to write publicly about his depression * [01:13:15] What Parker most hopes current leaders will experience * [01:16:59] Holding compassion and prophetic challenge at the same time * [01:18:22] Living the Questions Substack — and why Parker started it at 87 * [01:19:20] What's an angry old Quaker to do? Harnessing anger toward life-giving ends * [01:21:44] Speaking truth to power — and what democracy needs from us now * [01:23:22] Keeping your heart open to people who've fallen into MAGA * [01:27:02] Final gift: Terry Tempest Williams and the human heart as democracy's first home Key References and Resources Mentioned: * [00:03:55] Center for Courage and Renewal [https://www.couragerenewal.org] — founded by Parker; has supported hundreds of thousands of leaders in education, healthcare, public life, and beyond * [00:04:30] Let Your Life Speak [https://www.amazon.com/Let-Your-Life-Speak-Listening/dp/0787947350] by Parker J. Palmer * [00:04:30] The Courage to Teach [https://www.amazon.com/Courage-Teach-Inner-Landscape-Teachers/dp/0787996629] by Parker J. Palmer * [00:04:30] A Hidden Wholeness [https://www.amazon.com/Hidden-Wholeness-Journey-Toward-Undivided/dp/0787971441] by Parker J. Palmer — his guide to the practice of circles, evocative questions, and listening for inner truth * [00:04:30] Healing the Heart of Democracy [https://www.amazon.com/Healing-Heart-Democracy-Courage-Politics/dp/1118094948] by Parker J. Palmer * [00:11:38] Jerry Colonna [https://www.reboot.io/team/jerry-colonna/] — executive coach, CEO of Reboot.io, mutual friend of Skippy and Parker whose praise first led Skippy to Parker's work * [00:15:25] UC Berkeley [https://www.berkeley.edu] — where Parker completed his PhD in sociology in 1969, and where his inner calling first diverged from the academic path * [00:24:39] Quaker Testimonies (SPICES) [https://www.friendsjournal.org/s-p-i-c-e-s-quaker-testimonies/] — the core values of Quaker life: Simplicity, Peace, Integrity, Community, Equality, and Stewardship; the ethical framework underlying Pendle Hill and Parker's approach to leadership * [00:24:39] Clearness Committee / Circles of Trust — the Quaker-rooted practice of gathering a small group to ask honest, open questions that help someone listen more deeply to their own inner truth; described extensively in A Hidden Wholeness [https://www.amazon.com/Hidden-Wholeness-Journey-Toward-Undivided/dp/0787971441] * [00:29:02] Pendle Hill [https://pendlehill.org] — the Quaker study, retreat, and community center near Philadelphia, Pennsylvania where Parker spent 11 transformative years; founded in 1930, open to all seekers * [00:38:21] The Courage Method — Skippy's leadership development framework, referenced throughout the conversation as a parallel to Parker's work; more at civiccouragelab.com [https://www.civiccouragelab.com] * [00:44:32] Boundary Waters Canoe Area Wilderne... [https://www.fs.usda.gov/visit/destination/boundary-waters-canoe-area-wilderness]

The Host, Revealed: Skippy’s Journey in His Own Words w/ Jesse Link

Welcome to the Healing Our Politics Podcast!    Join Our Community and Receive Free Tools + How to Guides: Join “The Leader’s Handbook” newsletter [https://leadershandbook.substack.com/about] https://leadershandbook.substack.com/about ·  Always free ·  Once per month email ·  Curated selection of tools, techniques, and practices discussed on this podcast ·  Delivered in simple to follow how-to-guides ·  To try and test in your life, and teach your teams. JOIN HERE [https://leadershandbook.substack.com/about] https://leadershandbook.substack.com/about [https://leadershandbook.substack.com/about]  About the Episode:  Today, in the final episode of our very first season, the tables turn.  For nearly 30 episodes, I’ve asked the questions, held space for others to open up, and pulled at threads in hopes that you, the audience - leaders and colleges - could find resources and actionable strategies. Now I find myself on the other side of the mic, sitting face to face with my mirror, Jesse Link - (and by chance a literal mirror!) We get into my own journey — my upbringing, my family, the roads I’ve walked, the mistakes I’ve made, the systems I’ve built to stay standing, and the people and relationships that keep me whole.  Guest Host: Jesse Link is a strategic partner to agencies and growing businesses, helping CEOs connect the dots between their numbers, their narratives, and themselves. He’s also the lead researcher at Healing Our Politics, and, proudly, a coaching client turned lifelong friend.  From college athlete, to climbing the ladder at Goldman Sachs, and founding a venture-backed startup, Jesse decided to step off the corporate fast track, to follow the crooked path — the kind built through failure, creative discovery, and honest reinvention. Not the one laid out for him on Wall Street, but one that meant something. And while he’s exploring new creative frontiers — through writing, video, and documentary — he’s still learning to lead with not knowing.  He’s asking the big questions  — what drives us, what blocks us, and how we find our way back to passion.  .  Key Topics Discussed: · [00:02:40] Episode/Guest Host Intro · [00:09:03] Identifying as a Public Service    · [00:12:43] What Would Grandma Think? · [00:18:17] Skippy Shows His Cards: Political Family History  · [00:23:43] Partnership as Lead Domino, Partnerships is a Verb  · [00:28:45] Selfishness in a Good Way  · [00:29:50] Discipline and Practice  · [00:32:55] What Worked for Weirdo (Skippy)  · [00:34:20] Hitting the Decision Point   · [00:36:20] Change of Environment  · [00:37:43] From the Illusion of Confidence to Genuine Confidence  · [00:40:07] It's More of a Spectrum of Growth than a “Before and After”  · [00:49:30] Unrelenting Hope  · [00:55:22] Ho to be an Unbogged Public Servant  · [01:00:48] Skippy’s Happiness Parachute in Office (An Unsolved Bog)  · [01:03:54] Time In Office and Campaigning for Conversation  · [01:12:25] Leaders are the Wheel, not the Gas · [01:16:20] SPONSOR: Skyrun Vacation Rentals [https://skyrun.com/aspen]: Use Code HOP15 · [01:17:15] SPONSOR: ELC [https://www.electedleaderscollective.com/] (https://www.electedleaderscollective.com [https://www.electedleaderscollective.com/]) · [01:19:35] Comparison in a Bubble of Privilege  · [01:24:46] The Dichotomy of Shame and Desire of Wealth  · [01:26:12] Available Resources for Public Servants and its Consequences  · [01:31:37] Financial Responsibility as a Constraint for High Function  · [01:31:37] A Digression into Spinny Flippy Zone  · [01:35:25] Safety and Risk  · [01:39:25] Fear is a Yellow Light  · [01:43:34] Skippy’s Theory of Travel (and tips!)  · [01:54:12] How to Stay Charged While at Work  · [01:57:16] Rapid Fire Q&A’s: From Favorite Color to Biggest Fear  · [02:04:34] Skippy’s Zone of Genius: The Wellbeing of Leaders  · [02:13:45] HealingOurPolitics.com [http://healingourpolitics.com]  · [02:13:50] “The Leader’s Handbook” (https://www.healingourpolitics.com/#newsletter [https://www.healingourpolitics.com/#newsletter]) Newsletter · [02:14:04] ELC (https://www.electedleaderscollective.com [https://www.electedleaderscollective.com/]) · [02:14:04] Support ELC [https://givebox.com/523743]  Key References and Resources Mentioned: · [00:28:40] David Allen HOP Episode [https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/how-to-master-mental-clarity-david-allens-gtd-guide/id1752186594?i=1000667110359] · [01:10:44] Roland Griffiths [https://www.apa.org/news/podcasts/speaking-of-psychology/psychedelic-therapy] · [01:26:30] Rick Doblin HOP Episode  [https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/the-long-game-an-epic-journey-for-psychedelic/id1752186594?i=1000711259546&l=pt-BR] · [02:00:23] The Righteous Mind: Why Good People Are Divided by Politics and Religion, Jonathan Haidt [https://www.amazon.com/Righteous-Mind-Divided-Politics-Religion/dp/0307455777] · [02:13:50] “The Leader’s Handbook” (https://www.healingourpolitics.com/#newsletter [https://www.healingourpolitics.com/#newsletter]) Newsletter · [02:18:18] SPONSOR: Skyrun Vacation Rentals [https://skyrun.com/aspen]: Use Code HOP15 Where to Find Jesse Link: * jesse@healingourpolitics.com [jesse@healingourpolitics.com] Where to Find Skippy Mesirow: * Receive Support at the Elected Leaders Collective [http://www.electedleaderscollective.com/] ElectedLeadersCollective.com [https://www.electedleaderscollective.com/] * Follow on Instagram [https://www.instagram.com/skippymesirow/] www.instagam.com/skippymesirow [http://www.instagam.com/skippymesirow] * @healingourpolitics [https://www.instagram.com/healingourpolitics/?hl=en] * Book a free Clarity Call [https://calendly.com/skippymesirow/elc-clarity-call] https://calendly.com/skippymesirow/elc-clarity-call [https://calendly.com/skippymesirow/elc-clarity-call]  to see if coaching is right for you     Episode Sponsor: Skyrun Vacation Rentals [https://skyrun.com/aspen]: Use Code HOP15  Elected Leaders Collective [http://electedleaderscollective.com] ElectedLeadersCollective.com [https://www.electedleaderscollective.com/] (ELC) Helping You Heal Our Politics

Tribal Minds, Moral Lines, and Outrage!: The Psychology of Polarization w/ Dr. Kurt Gray

Welcome to the Healing Our Politics Podcast!    Join Our Community and Receive Free Tools + How to Guides: Join “The Leader’s Handbook” newsletter [https://leadershandbook.substack.com/about] https://leadershandbook.substack.com/about ·  Always free ·  Once per month email ·  Curated selection of tools, techniques, and practices discussed on this podcast ·  Delivered in simple to follow how-to-guides ·  To try and test in your life, and teach your teams. JOIN HERE [https://leadershandbook.substack.com/about] https://leadershandbook.substack.com/about [https://leadershandbook.substack.com/about]  Guest: Dr. Kurt Gray is an award-winning psychologist and one of the country’s leading experts on moral psychology and political polarization. With a PhD from Harvard university, Kurt is a professor at the University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill, where he directs two groundbreaking institutions: the Deepest Beliefs Lab and the Center for the Science of Moral Understanding. Through these, he explores how our deepest convictions shape society, and how we can bridge divides, and he also serves as an adjunct professor at UNC’s Kenan-Flagler Business School, where he trains future leaders to lead ethically in polarized environments. This fall, Kurt will be the incoming Weary Foundation Endowed Chair in the Social Psychology of Polarization and Misinformation at Ohio State University.  Dr. Gray’s work has been featured in The New York Times, The Economist, Wired, and NPR’s Hidden Brain, and he's spoken on multiple TEDx stages. He’s the recipient of numerous honors including the Janet Spence Award, the Theoretical Innovation Prize, and the Psi Chi Award for Undergraduate Teaching Excellence. His new book,  Outraged!: Why We Fight About Morality and Politics and How to Find Common Ground,  hit #1 in its category on Amazon —  *And it’s a must-read!* About the Episode:  In this conversation, Dr. Kurt Gray breaks down the psychological patterns that drive division in our politics—insights that are essential for anyone working in public service or elected leadership today. He explains why we instinctively cast others as either villains or victims, and how that oversimplification fuels polarization and undermines our ability to build coalitions or govern effectively. We explore how fear—far more than fact—shapes political behavior, and why traditional messaging strategies so often fail to persuade. Kurt unpacks the double-edged nature of moral outrage—how it can unite us around shared values or tear us apart when left unchecked. For those working to lead ethically in polarized environments, we discuss how to create the kind of spaces—whether in town halls, policy negotiations, or public messaging— where people actually feel safe enough to listen, reflect, and shift. From the power of storytelling to the importance of ditching the small talk, and braving deeper questions, Dr. Gray offers science-backed strategies that can help restore civility, rebuild public trust, and lead with integrity in times of uncertainty. Whether you're knocking doors, or sitting in a city council seat, this conversation will sharpen your leadership and deepen your impact. Key Topics Discussed:  · [00:02:40] Guest/Episode Intro · [00:07:50] Other Minds  · [00:09:00] “You never understand me!”  · [00:10:20] Learning to Adapt Early in Life · [00:13:07] Skippy’s Experiences from Across the Globe! · [00:16:30] What’s the Protection Narrative Here?  · [00:18:50] Fear is Driving Behavior  · [00:21:02] The Apex Predator Myth · [00:24:40] We are Herd Animals  · [00:26:58] The Trend of Presence  · [00:28:28] Social Media is giving Above Clinical Threshold PTSD · [00:29:36] What is the right thing to do?: Norms and Morals  · [00:33:48] Statistical Truths Become Irrelevant   · [00:34:32] Rationality, Self Interest and the Breadth of Morality  · [00:36:46] What Do We Lose In the Absence of Safety? · [00:39:15] Good Choices for Bad Intent · [00:39:48] What Makes Something/Someone Evil?  · [00:42:00] Humanizing Hitler  · [00:47:21] The Victim/Villan Narratives: Moral Type Casting · [00:50:35] SPONSOR: Skyrun Vacation Rentals [https://skyrun.com/aspen]: Use Code HOP15 · [00:51:30] SPONSOR: ELC [https://www.electedleaderscollective.com] (https://www.electedleaderscollective.com [https://www.electedleaderscollective.com]) · [00:53:50] When is Outrage Bad? · [00:57:40] The Selfish Reason  · [01:00:40] When Disagreement is Unsafe  · [01:02:05] "E pluribus unum" · [01:03:50] The Power of Trying to Understand  · [01:05:43] It’s a Hard Sell  · [01:06:21] The Power of Stories · [01:08:15] Better Questions Yield Deeper Connections  · [01:11:00] The Fast Friends Protocol  · [01:13:11] A Herd Species in the Age of Social Anxiety and Fear  · [01:16:15] Moral Creep   · [01:23:07] Step 1: Recognize Shared Intentions/Validity · [01:23:57] Step 2: Share Your Stories · [01:25:35] Final Question: Keep Asking Questions to Understand  · [01:29:50] “The Leader’s Handbook” (https://www.healingourpolitics.com/#newsletter [https://www.healingourpolitics.com/#newsletter]) Newsletter · [01:30:55] Sponsor: Skyrun Vacation Rentals [https://skyrun.com/aspen]: Use Code HOP155 · [01:31:50] Sponsor: ELC (https://www.electedleaderscollective.com [https://www.electedleaderscollective.com]) Key References and Resources Mentioned: · [00:07:43] Outraged! on Amazon [https://www.amazon.com/s?k=outraged+kurt+gray&hvadid=717074373807&hvdev=c&hvexpln=67&hvlocphy=9015306&hvnetw=g&hvocijid=11608236778069654869--&hvqmt=e&hvrand=11608236778069654869&hvtargid=kwd-2372625602615&hydadcr=22537_13531293&mcid=2f76aa6406323f9d96498ff57250d604&tag=googhydr-20&ref=pd_sl_9h8quaoi4m_e_p67] · [00:31:22] The WEIRDest People in the World, Joseph Henrich  [https://www.amazon.com/WEIRDest-People-World-Psychologically-Particularly/dp/1250800072?source=ps-sl-shoppingads-lpcontext&ref_=fplfs&psc=1&smid=ATVPDKIKX0DER&gQT=1] · [00:59:20] The Habsburg Family [https://www.britannica.com/topic/House-of-Habsburg]  · [01:02:05] "E pluribus unum" [https://www.britannica.com/topic/E-pluribus-unum-United-States-motto] · [01:03:05] Daryl Davis  [https://www.npr.org/2017/08/20/544861933/how-one-man-convinced-200-ku-klux-klan-members-to-give-up-their-robes] · [01:03:44] Dr. Dianna Smith HOP Episode [https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/from-conflict-to-collaboration-dr-diana-smiths-guide/id1752186594?i=1000665417330]  · [01:03:47] Remaking the Space B... [https://www.amazon.com/Remaking-Space-Between-Us-Citizens/dp/1962202313]

Solitary to Solidarity: Trauma, Brotherhood, and Transformation w/ Eldra Jackson III

Welcome to the Healing Our Politics Podcast!    Join Our Community and Receive Free Tools + How to Guides: Join “The Leader’s Handbook” newsletter [https://leadershandbook.substack.com/about] https://leadershandbook.substack.com/about ·  Always free ·  Once per month email ·  Curated selection of tools, techniques, and practices discussed on this podcast ·  Delivered in simple to follow how-to-guides ·  To try and test in your life, and teach your teams. JOIN HERE [https://leadershandbook.substack.com/about] https://leadershandbook.substack.com/about [https://leadershandbook.substack.com/about]  Guest: Eldra Jackson III is the Co-Executive Director of Inside Circle, a nonprofit dedicated to breaking the cycles of incarceration and violence through healing-centered inner work. But what makes his experience essential is that Eldra doesn’t just lead this work—he lived it. He spent 24 years in prison for robbery and attempted murder, including years in solitary confinement. It was in that extreme isolation that Eldra began the transformational work that would change his life—and now impacts countless others. Since his release, he’s become a national voice in trauma-informed care, restorative justice, and men’s emotional wellness. He’s a TEDx speaker, the subject of the award-winning documentary The Work, and has been featured by NBC News, Forbes, and the LA Times. He also hosts the Inside Circle podcast, where I was honored to join him earlier this year.. About the Episode:  Whether you're designing policy, leading a team, or simply seeking deeper understanding —this conversation will challenge you, move you, and equip you with new insight. In this raw and deeply personal conversation, Eldra takes us through his journey through trauma, transformation, and the hard truths behind incarceration in America. We begin by exploring Adverse Childhood Experiences (ACEs) and how untreated trauma in early life can lead to lives marked by crime, apathy, and pain. Eldra offers a rare, firsthand look at the psychology of gang culture, the pursuit of power, and the deep role that fear and survival play in shaping identity and behavior. We dive into big, systemic questions: Should prison be punitive, rehabilitative, or something else entirely? What do most political leaders misunderstand about human behavior and the roots of violence? And if Eldra had the power to wave a magic wand, what would he do to reduce crime and incarceration by 80% tomorrow? We discuss the structure and philosophy behind "circle work," the transformative group healing practice that Eldra now facilitates with incarcerated and formerly incarcerated men, the nature of toxic masculinity, the resistance many men feel toward emotional vulnerability, and what it actually takes to undo that conditioning. Perhaps most powerfully, Eldra shares the daily practices and mindsets that keep him grounded and in service to others. This episode is straightforward, surprising, and ultimately hopeful—a powerful reminder that real transformation is possible, not just for individuals, but for systems.  Key Topics Discussed: · [00:02:40] Guest/Episode Introduction · [00:06:18] What love means to Eldra · [00:07:36] Learning to Feel despite Cultural Messaging, and Trauma · [00:12:22] Sharing for the first time  · [00:14:42] Indoctrinated into Secrecy  · [00:16:10] A Central Unnamed Fear  · [00:18:53] Who was "Vegas” · [00:21:53] Fear motivating aggression · [00:24:13] What is Gang Culture?  · [00:29:05] The danger in apathy · [00:30:40] Eldra’s Rock Bottom: Worse than Charles Manson · [00:33:45] The Mindset of Attempted Murder  · [00:36:11] How did you get out of prison?  · [00:39:37] What shifted in you to convince the Board?  · [00:33:15] Taking Responsibility · [00:43:55] SPONSOR: Skyrun Vacation Rentals [https://skyrun.com/aspen]: Use Code HOP15 · [00:44:50] SPONSOR: ELC [https://www.electedleaderscollective.com] (https://www.electedleaderscollective.com [https://www.electedleaderscollective.com]) · [00:47:45] The New Goal: Escaping Internal Prisons  · [00:48:23] ACEs: Adverse Childhood Experiences · [00:51:15] What Keeps you out of prison?  · [00:52:19] The Practice of “Who do I want to be today?”/”How did I show up today?”  · [00:55:20] Keeping the Practice of Circle  · [00:56:56] What is Circle? How does it work?  · [01:04:30] Another Story from Circle  · [01:08:08] Failures in Understanding and Systemic Apathy  · [01:09:35] Emotional Literacy as the Key to fewer Incarcerations  · [01:10:50] Evil is real and born from intention · [01:12:51] A Transformational plan (not Rehabilitation)  · [01:15:55] Toxic Masculinity  · [01:17:50] The Weaponization of the Concept  · [01:18:11] Meeting Internal Resistance · [01:21:17] Know and Love Yourself as a Model to others · [01:23:40] Final Question: See Yourself in Other People · [01:24:43]] “The Leader’s Handbook” (https://www.healingourpolitics.com/#newsletter [https://www.healingourpolitics.com/#newsletter]) Newsletter · [01:25:50] Sponsor: Skyrun Vacation Rentals [https://skyrun.com/aspen]: Use Code HOP155 · [01:26:45] Sponsor: ELC (https://www.electedleaderscollective.com [https://www.electedleaderscollective.com]) Key References and Resources Mentioned: · [00:04:10] Eldra’s TED Talk [https://t.co/2LhVbEy5De] · [00:04:34] Inside Circle Podcast  [https://insidecircle.org/podcast/] · [00:04:36] Inside Circle Episode w/ Skippy [https://open.spotify.com/episode/70J20VuckxOA4K0eEQMnc4]  · [00:15:57] HOP Episode w/ Bryan Hubbard  [https://open.spotify.com/episode/2E8wx3FaOreNitF7tikOiK] · [00:36:42] California Board of Parole Hearings [https://www.cdcr.ca.gov/bph/] · [00:48:23] ACEs: Adverse Childhood Experiences [https://www.cdc.gov/aces/about/index.html] · [00:48:35] The Violence Project [https://www.theviolenceproject.org/] · [01:21:57] InsideCircle.org [http://insidecircle.org]  · [01:23:00] Outside Circle, October 10-12 2025 in SF  [https://insidecircle.org/events/] · [01:24:43]] “The Leader’s Handbook” (https://www.healingourpolitics.com/#newsletter [https://www.healingourpolitics.com/#newsletter]) Newsletter · [01:25:50] Sponsor: Skyrun Vacation Rentals [https://skyrun.com/aspen]: Use Code HOP155 · [01:26:45] Sponsor: ELC (https://www.electedleaderscollective.com [https://www.electedleaderscollective.com]) Where to Find Eldra Jackson III: * InsideCircle.org [http://insidecircle.org]  * Inside Circle Podcast [https://insidecircle.org/podcast/]

The Long Game: An Epic Journey for Psychedelic Assisted Therapy w/ Rick Doblin

Welcome to the Healing Our Politics Podcast!    Join Our Community and Receive Free Tools + How to Guides: Join “The Leader’s Handbook” newsletter [https://leadershandbook.substack.com/about] https://leadershandbook.substack.com/about ·  Always free ·  Once per month email ·  Curated selection of tools, techniques, and practices discussed on this podcast ·  Delivered in simple to follow how-to-guides ·  To try and test in your life, and teach your teams. JOIN HERE [https://leadershandbook.substack.com/about] https://leadershandbook.substack.com/about [https://leadershandbook.substack.com/about]  Guest: Rick Doblin  is a man who saw a future no one else believed in: to restore and reimagine the role of psychedelics in society as tools for healing. Today, after nearly four decades of joyful persistence, legal battles, and spiritual grit, that dream is a global movement. Rick is the founder and president of the Multidisciplinary Association for Psychedelic Studies, or MAPS, a nonprofit that’s been at the absolute forefront of psychedelic research since 1986: If you’ve ever had a serious conversation about psychedelic medicine, chances are, you’ve encountered his work — directly or indirectly. Rick holds a Ph.D. in Public Policy from the Harvard Kennedy School, where he wrote his dissertation on the regulation of the medical uses of psychedelics and marijuana and his Master’s thesis on a survey of oncologists about smoked marijuana vs. the oral THC pill in nausea control for cancer patients. His undergraduate thesis at New College of Florida was a 25-year follow-up to the classic Good Friday Experiment, which evaluated the potential of psychedelic drugs to catalyze religious experiences. He also conducted a thirty-four year follow-up study to Timothy Leary’s Concord Prison Experiment. Rick studied with Dr. Stanislav Grof and was among the first to be certified as a Holotropic Breathwork practitioner. His professional goal is to help develop legal contexts for the beneficial uses of psychedelics and marijuana, primarily as prescription medicines but also for personal growth for otherwise healthy people, and eventually to become a legally licensed psychedelic therapist. Rick has been a featured guest for TED Talks,  and the Students for Sensible Drug Policy ,SSPD, and just last year was recognized as one of the most influential people in global health, 2024 TIME 100 Health Honoree. He’s part philosopher, part policy strategist, part spiritual truth seeker, and CONTINUES to be one of the most persistent, thoughtful, and — frankly — courageous advocates for psychedelics as tools for healing. About the Episode:  I first sat down with Rick months ago, but in light of the FDA’s decision against MDA assisted psychotherapy, dropping just before the original episode release, I HAD to check in with Rick again for the whole picture. In this exciting two-parter you get Rick’s perspective PRE and POST the FDA’s decision.  In the first half, we dig into Rick's 40 year journey, including never before told stories about his early life, the founding of MAPS, what it's like to stay true to a vision no one else believed was possible, and Rick’s decades-long chess game with the FDA. We talk about making bipartisan coalitions last, unconventional approaches to management, how to discern grit from stubbornness, and how to reframe fundraising asked to truly connect with lasting mission aligned support, structuring your organization - for profit, non-profit, or something else-  how to turn enemies to allies, and how to fight major institutions and win. In the second half, we discuss how MAPS is paving the way for global psychedelic healing, as well as Rick’s personal approaches for staying committed through uncertainty, how to build systems and practices to sustain yourself over time, how to remain warm, open, and connected in the face of mass public criticism, and what it takes to scale a movement from a single believer to a global institution. We touch on MAPS's new push to measure gross national trauma with a goal of net zero trauma by 2070 and how you as a public servant, leader, or active citizen can help us get there. This episode takes us deep inside Rick’s toolkit so that you are resourced to do what others can’t yet imagine. Key Topics Discussed: · [00:02:40] Guest/Episode Intro · [00:04:45] This is a 2-Part Episode!  · [00:08:12] PART ONE · [00:08:12] Moses was high, Dad!  · [00:13:30] An Exemplary Pathway for Leaders · [00:14:30] “Then they take you for granted…”  · [00:15:50] “Winning” isn’t forever  · [00:15:57] Magister Ludi: The Glass Bead Game [https://ia600302.us.archive.org/21/items/MagisterLudi-TheGlassBeadGame-HermanHesse/hesseludi.pdf] (*Spoiler Alert*) · [00:20:45] Predicting Civil War  · [00:22:05] The Success of Preposterous Lies  · [00:25:11] The Beginning of the Mission  · [00:27:43] MAPS [https://maps.org/]’ 38th Anniversary  · [00:29:27] Core of Darkness Wrapped in Privilege  · [00:34:33] What My Bar Mitzvah Should Have Been · [00:38:00] Becoming Political via Landline Propaganda · [00:42:20] Study and Practice of Non Violent Resistance  · [00:42:43] Side Note About Getting Sucked Into Systems (Don’t volunteer yourself)  · [00:44:33] Oasis of Sanity: Exploring Psychedelics  · [00:46:22] From Counter Culture to Culture (“Criminal” to Psychotherapist)  · [00:47:30] 1960s Culture of Silence  · [00:49:57] The Political Exaggeration of Psychedelics · [00:52:50] Understanding Commonality, Backed by Experience · [00:55:50 Wanting to Quit? · [00:58:20] Science Blocked by Politics: Rick’s Shift to Harvard · [00:59:08] Winning the Lawsuit but Losing the Job · [01:00:00] 14 Years Into MAPS: the STRUGGLE to begin Research · [01:01:54] Independent Institutional Review Boards  [https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC4631034/#:~:text=IRBs%20are%20charged%20with%20providing,designed%20to%20protect%20human%20subjects.] · [01:02:01] Western IRB [https://www.wcgclinical.com/solutions/study-planning-review/?gad_source=1&gad_campaignid=15065334907&gbraid=0AAAAADE3xW3C5nHCR9XdUFJhpxxOd4tOP&gclid=Cj0KCQjwuvrBBhDcARIsAKRrkjeEjagPf1hIIKPpHPBm42OZyWc7erebSQJ719n04U49O6t31Z9rOVMaAlktEALw_wcB], now part of the WCG (WIRB-Copernicus Group) · [01:02:04] 17 Years In: Approved to BEGIN  · [01:03:37] Training Inner Work, Renewal of Convictions, and the Measure of Happiness   · [01:07:09] Success in Small Victories and Just Showing Up · [01:11:06] Back to the Story!: Approval Rescinded · [01:12:10] Politics Blocked Science, Again · [01:14:07] Finding Copernicus [https://www.wcgclinical.com/solutions/study-planning-review/?gad_source=1&gad_campaignid=15065334907&gbraid=0AAAAADE3xW3C5nHCR9XdUFJhpxxOd4tOP&gclid=Cj0KCQjwuvrBBhDcARIsAKRrkjeEjagPf1hIIKPpHPBm42OZyWc7erebSQJ719n04U49O6t31Z9rOVMaAlktEALw_wcB]: Approval Finally Granted