Ori Eldarov (OffDeal): How to Build a Landscape Business Worth Selling (Or Keeping)

Dana Groh (MSC): The "M" Stood for Miscellaneous. Now It Stands for $10 Million

00:00 Intro: Vanessa welcomes Dana Groh from MSC (Minnesota Sod Company), 30+ years in the business 00:49 What MSC does: two divisions, commercial (sod, turf seed, prairie seed, blanket and hydro mulch) and maintenance (athletic field renovations, fertilizing through full turf renovations) 01:35 National reach: projects as far as Arizona, Colorado, and Michigan 02:07 The niching story: in the early days the "M" stood for miscellaneous. Limited staff forced them to simplify and systemize around turf, fully focused since the early 2000s, maintenance division launched around 2014-2015 03:55 The biggest growth constraint: getting out of your own way. Recognizing when to hire so things stop falling through the cracks 05:11 How coaching helped Dana identify what to delegate: tracking what she enjoys, what she doesn't, and what somebody else can do better 05:56 The employee engagement survey: run in October at the height of the season, 100% completion across the company, no incentives needed 07:13 What the survey uncovered: the need for a dedicated people person. MSC hired an HR lead within months 09:16 The John story: hiring a business coach 10 years ago who taught Dana and Tom to read their financials. "I have given you the tools to get to 10 million." MSC is on track to hit $10M this year 11:16 Financial fundamentals that changed the business: building a budget, tracking against it, setting five-year benchmarks, and celebrating when you hit them 11:56 The Gap and the Gain: why looking back at how far you've come matters as much as the next goal 15:45 Culture at MSC: two company days per year, a spring startup with a "state of MSC" in the morning and MSC Olympics in the afternoon, complete with a podium 17:34 Running lean: 30 people at peak, 15 in winter, focused on higher revenue per hour work 18:44 The current constraint: project handoff. As the team grows, information slips through the cracks, and MSC is building the system to fix it 22:24 Technology: LMN as the game-changing first system 10 years ago (before that, quotes lived on napkins), and now LeanScaper for AI-powered huddle summaries and estimate feedback 27:05 Final resources: ACE Peer Group, podcasts, books, and the power of repetition

Nicole Downer (Downer Brothers): From $5M to $10M - Why Leaders Have to Become Leaders of Leaders

[00:46] Nicole shares her origin story - literature major turned 30-year landscape veteran who has worn every hat in the business. [02:02] Downer Brothers is at $7M. The real target is $10M at 18% profit. Revenue without margin is "an amplifier of chaos." [03:43] Culture is the primary growth constraint - not because bad cultures are hard to scale, but because great ones are. [05:44] The rum line metaphor: culture is the navigational line you have to return to no matter what storms growth throws at you. [16:38] Nothing earns revenue without the field team. The office exists to serve them, not manage them. [17:32] Culture is your brand - candidates feel it, clients feel it, and it exists whether you manage it or not. [19:41] At $1M you can be everywhere. At $7M you cannot multiply yourself. The shift is from leader to leader of leaders. [22:20] Teaching is the fastest path to mastery. Train a manager, mentor someone new, go on a podcast - you learn more than you give. [24:20] Each division runs its own subculture. Maintenance is flat and team-first. Design build is hierarchical and alpha-driven. Knowing the difference changes how you lead and reward each team. [30:08] Forget hire slow. Onboard slow. Rushing onboarding is where culture breaks. [32:18] Culture is non-negotiable. Say it in the second interview, not the exit conversation. [37:13] The delegation mistake: handing off the role without first modeling the standard. [42:21] A bilingual VA in Mexico now owns end-of-day processes and timesheet compliance start to finish - affordable and field-facing. [44:44] Maya Angelou's "Still I Rise" is Nicole's north star. Get knocked down. Get back up. Every day is a new day to lead.

Ori Eldarov (OffDeal): How to Build a Landscape Business Worth Selling (Or Keeping)

[00:01] - Introduction: Why This Conversation Matters Rob sets the stage: private equity is flooding the green industry, but the noise around buying and selling landscape businesses is full of misconceptions. Ori Eldarov - founder of OffDeal and former Wall Street investment banker - is here to cut through it. [01:11] - Ori's Origin Story: From Wall Street to Main Street Ori spent nearly a decade advising on billions of dollars in transactions at a top investment bank. During COVID, a quarter-life crisis led him to try to buy a small business. What he found shocked him: the caliber of advisory services available to small business owners was a fraction of what large companies received. That gap became the founding insight for OffDeal. [03:36] - Why Small Business M&A Is Broken (And What OffDeal Does Differently) Traditional investment banks can't make the economics work on smaller deals, so they become volume plays with lower-quality advisors. Ori's solution: bring in AI and software engineering to deliver Wall Street-level service to Main Street business owners. OffDeal went from 3 people to nearly 20 in under two years, advising dozens of owners on both successful and unsuccessful exits. [04:47] - How OffDeal Stumbled Into Landscaping A software company serving landscaping businesses approached OffDeal to build a custom AI tool for their clients. The tool generated massive inbound from landscape entrepreneurs wanting to understand their business value - and a dedicated landscaping M&A practice was born. [07:47] - The Scale Reality Check: How Few Landscape Businesses Are Actually Sellable Ori shares data that reframes the entire industry: * 700,000 landscaping companies in the United States * Only 100,000 have more than one employee * Only 6,500 have more than 20 employees 99% of landscape businesses are subscale. Getting past $2M in revenue requires real systems - and most operators tap out there. The message: you're not alone, and it's genuinely hard. [11:08] - The Hawaii Test: The Best Litmus Test for Your Business "If you had to go to Hawaii for three months and throw your phone into the ocean, what would happen to your business?" The best-in-class answer: it continues to grow without you. The most common answer: the wheels come off the bus. This thought experiment instantly reveals your #1 rate-limiting factor - and Ori recommends physically stepping away from the business every quarter for at least a week to surface those fractures in real time. [13:47] - Mistake #1: Ignoring Service Mix When Building the Business The single biggest predictor of saleability is what services you offer and in what ratio. Investors have clear preferences - and if you build your business without considering them, you can accidentally cut your retirement by two-thirds. Maintenance-first businesses are king. Design/build is valuable to customers but significantly less attractive to buyers. [14:50] - Commercial Maintenance vs. Design/Build: What Buyers Actually Pay Off the 50 largest consolidators Ori's team interviewed: * Some assign zero value to design/build revenue * Others apply a 50% haircut to the multiple vs. maintenance work * HOA commercial maintenance contracts are considered the most attractive of all [16:45] - The Mixed Revenue Problem: How a $10M Business Becomes Unsellable Ori describes a $10M landscaping company with a 50/50 residential-commercial mix. The business is essentially unsellable to institutional buyers - because no investor wants both exposures in one company. The most likely buyer? Another local entrepreneur. Lower price, lower deal certainty, less cash at close. [19:16] - Service Mix Is a Lever, Not a Life Sentence This isn't a mandate to pivot overnight - it's a directional signal. Understand what investors want, then gradually steer toward it. Operators don't need to consult a banker for this. ChatGPT or Claude can give a serviceable directional answer on what acquired landscape companies look like. [22:40] - What Shocked Ori After Talking to 50 Consolidators Two answers nobody expected: 1. Labor documentation is non-negotiable. All 50 consolidators said every employee must be documented and have proper papers - full stop. Given the current regulatory environment, undocumented workers represent deal-killing risk. And it's not a quick fix, especially in markets like California where documented labor is scarce. 2. Snow removal above 20% of revenue kills deals. All 50 had opinions on snow removal, but the consensus: more than 20% snow revenue introduces too much variability. Know the goalposts, and set a KPI to shift away from it over time. [26:02] - Why Private Equity Got Into Landscaping in the First Place Ori explains the "buy and build" playbook: acquire multiple smaller businesses at mid-single-digit multiples, aggregate them under one roof, then sell the combined entity for 15–25x. By the 10th acquisition, you've collected the best practices from every business you bought. The strategy works - until there's no one big enough left to buy you. [28:20] - We're Approaching Peak Consolidation: The Window Is Finite The tell-tale signs that the consolidation cycle is late-stage: * Minimum deal sizes have dropped to $1M books of business (previously $3–5M in profit) * Buyers are now acquiring in Alaska and mixed-service businesses they would have rejected three years ago * "Animal spirits" are rationalizing riskier and riskier acquisitions Ori's conclusion: there is a finite window to sell at peak multiples. Once the large consolidators can't find buyers for their own portfolios, deal flow for smaller operators dries up significantly. [31:13] - The Recessionary 2030s: Should Landscape Owners Be Worried? Rob raises ITR Economics' widely-discussed forecast of a significant economic contraction in the early 2030s. Ori's counterpoint: trade services - including landscaping - are among the most AI-proof industries that exist. While white-collar workers face automation risk, the hands-on trades that maintain homes and commercial properties will remain in demand. Reason for optimism, not panic. [32:54] - Exit Planning on a 5–10 Year Timeline: Where to Start Ori's framework for operators who know they want to sell eventually: 1. Accept the psychological reality: you'll need to do things you don't know how to do. If you're not okay with that, you're not ready. 2. Set an end goal (revenue, service mix, team structure) and work backwards from it. 3. Answer the foundational questions: What's your average job size? What's your crew utilization rate? How many sales people do you need to hit the goal? Most operators can't answer these - which reveals where to start. [35:48] - Don't Be the Smartest Person in the Room "If you are the smartest person in every single room as an entrepreneur, you're doing something wrong." Build a team around the gaps - sales, marketing, operations - and hire people who know more than you in their lane. [37:30] - A Business Worth Selling Is a Business Worth Keeping Rob raises the insight that the best businesses to sell are the ones that don't need to be sold. Ori confirms it: the clients who take the longest to decide to exit are the best-in-class operators. They get the most offers, the best terms, the most cash upfront, and the lowest earn-out requirements. The goal isn't to build a sellable business - it's to build a great business. Saleability is the byproduct. [38:26] - The Risk Transfer Framework One of the sharpest reframes in the episode: "I'm not selling a company. I'm transferring risk from myself to the new owner. The more risk I make them take on, the less they're going to be willing to pay me." Use this lens to evaluate every decision you make in your business from today forward. [38:46] - Two Thought Experiments Every Operator Should Run 1. "If a stranger came to buy my business and I didn't know them, what would I tell them?" - forces honest self-assessment 2. "Which competitor would I never acquire, and why?" - instantly reveals what you'd avoid in your own business. Apply that list to yourself. [41:45] - The Simple Heuristic: Under $10M vs. Over $10M * Under $10M in revenue? Grow the top line. Period. A small multiple on a small number is still a small exit. * Over $10M in revenue? Fix your margins. Going from 10% to 20% profit margin doubles your profitability and more than doubles your business value - without adding a single dollar of revenue. [43:17] - How to Reach OffDeal & Free AI Tools Available Website: www.offdeal.io [http://www.offdeal.io] Free tools include a buyer-matching AI that shows you potential acquirers for your business from OffDeal's database of tens of thousands of vetted buyers - no email required, no sales call. Used 50–60 times per day. You can also leave your information for a discreet consultation - even if you're years from a potential sale. [44:35] - Rob's Closing Reminder: Lead Response Speed Matters Ori's team responds to inquiries within minutes - and that's a deliberate strategy. Rob closes with a reminder to the audience: if it takes you two days to respond to an inbound lead, the deal is already gone. Under five minutes is the standard.

Jeffrey Scott: What Winning Landscape Companies Are Doing Differently Right Now

[00:00] — Welcome Back & Jeffrey Scott's Legacy in the Industry Rob introduces Jeffrey as a return guest, recognizing his decades in the green industry, his coaching practice, and the impact of his peer groups on raising professionalism industry-wide. [01:05] — Customer Obsession + The Power of Pivoting Jeffrey opens with a foundational principle: wake up every day asking how you can help your clients more, better, differently. He ties it to Warren Buffett's line - "I've never seen a customer-obsessed business go out of business"  - and reminds listeners that Apple didn't get to the iPhone on its first or fourth try. [02:44] — The #1 Growth Constraint: The Owner Gets in the Way Rob shares the pattern he's discovered from 18+ months of interviewing top landscaping entrepreneurs: almost universally, the owner identifies themselves as the primary bottleneck. The grind that got you to $2M won't get you to $10M. Trust, delegation, and system-building are what takes you there. [05:32] — Winslow Personality Profile Data: Trust Scores Lowest for Entrepreneurs Jeffrey drops real data from The Winslow personality profile - a 24-trait assessment used across his coaching practice. Among all 24 metrics, trust scores the lowest for entrepreneurs. The reason: bad hires, poor onboarding, early baggage. Not laziness — lived experience that calcified into a habit. [06:27] — The 3 Reasons Landscape Owners Hire Jeffrey Scott 1. They're overworked and underpaid - and in the way at the same time. 2. They've hit a growth ceiling they can't break through on their own. 3. They're planning for exit and need to make the business run without them. [08:32] — State of the Market: May 2026 Survey Data Jeffrey shares fresh survey results from his client base: 35% are ahead of last year, 22% are way ahead, only 24% are behind. Despite economic noise, weather delays, and media distraction, the green industry is quietly performing well. Those in snow-heavy areas are dealing with a compressed, frantic late start - but lead flow is still strong. [11:12] — Why Deals Haven't Closed Yet (Weather + Sales Behavior) Late frosts and snow delays have slowed project starts in northern markets. But both Rob and Jeffrey agree: even where leads are flowing, most operators aren't converting them efficiently. The problem isn't demand -  it's the sales process. [13:10] — The 10-Touch Follow-Up Rule (Backed by SPIN Selling Research) Jeffrey references SPIN Selling - the original data-driven sales bible - which found that successful salespeople follow up at least 10 times. Most landscape operators follow up once, maybe twice. This gap is costing companies significant revenue during the highest-demand window of the year. [14:24] — Owner as Salesperson vs. Selling Sales Manager Jeffrey breaks down three types of owner-salesperson dynamics: * The solo-selling owner * The accidental sales manager (still selling but now responsible for others' results too) * The business that finally has a dedicated sales manager Most operators are stuck in stage two without realizing it - and nobody's training the team. [16:18] — The Calendar Epidemic: Less Than 10% Use Appointment Invites for Sales Rob reveals a staggering stat from an audience poll: fewer than 1 in 10 landscapers send calendar invites to prospects when scheduling site visits or follow-ups. The fix requires zero mindset shift — just a behavior change. Use your calendar. Send the invite. Capture the commitment. [18:00] — BAMFAM: Book A Meeting From A Meeting The simplest sales discipline in the room: never leave a conversation without scheduling the next one. Jeffrey and Rob agree — this alone would close more deals for most operators. [18:36] — Price Is Not the Problem, It's Your Most Powerful Sales Tool One of the sharpest moments in the episode. Jeffrey's take: "Selling doesn't begin until a price is mentioned. Everything before that is consulting." Most salespeople avoid or delay the price conversation out of fear. That's backwards. Present price early enough to actually work through objections. [19:22] — You Cannot Sell on Email Selling requires real-time human interaction - reading body language, hearing hesitation, handling objections in the moment. Sending a proposal via email and waiting is not selling. It's hoping. [20:36] — Ambiverts Make the Best Salespeople (Daniel Pink) Jeffrey and Rob reference To Sell Is Human by Daniel Pink. Key insight: the best salespeople aren't extroverts (they don't stop talking) or introverts (too passive) - they're ambiverts. They know when to talk and when to shut up. [21:17] — The Value Chain of Winning Landscape Companies The companies that are winning right now figured out three things in order: 1. Marketing — consistent lead generation with professional help 2. Sales — a real process, not vibes 3. Staffing — great reputation, strong culture, and active networking to attract talent [23:22] — Nice Guys Finish First (With Backbone) Jeffrey's take on culture and recruiting: operators with strong reputations, genuine care for their teams, and clear values are winning the staffing game. Nice guys who also hold people accountable don't finish last - they finish first. [24:28] — The Owner's Real Job: Sell the Company, Not the Service Jeffrey recalls watching Jack Welch personally visit GE's top clients - not to pitch appliances, but to sell the idea of GE. Owners should be the chief evangelist of their company. That means networking, business development, and visibility - not just quoting jobs. [26:22] — Networking as the Underused Growth Lever For operators under $500K especially, local chambers of commerce, hospital fundraisers, and entrepreneur organizations (EO) are free or low-cost business development goldmines that most aren't using. Your network is your net worth - cliché because it's correct. [26:54] — Jeffrey Scott Grow Summit 2026: Detroit, August 18–20 Jeffrey walks through the format of his annual Summer Growth Summit - now in its 8th year. This year's event features: * Facility tours of two host companies: Ivan Katz's Great Lakes Landscape Design (~$10M) and Troy Klogg Landscape Associates (~$20–25M) * Sessions on lean production, AI, and business development * A pre-event day with owner presentations on branding, marketing, and growth stories * Speaker Kurt Labute sharing a humbling and remarkable growth story * Seating by title (owners with owners, PMs with PMs) to maximize peer learning [32:00] — The Biggest Blind Spot Right Now: Giving Up Too Easily Jeffrey's most common observation among struggling companies: they fold at the first sign of internal turbulence. A key executive giving notice in May? That might be a gift. When you reframe problems as opportunities - and most of them are - you spring forward instead of stall. [34:21] — Nick's Story: Cell Phone on the Truck to 8-Figure Business Jeffrey shares the evolution of a Minnesota client he's coached for four years. Nick started with his personal cell phone number on his truck - fielding every lead himself. After coaching, he was convinced to hand off the number and get a new one. He's now running an 8-figure landscape business. The lesson: make the moves. [35:28] — 80% of You Need to Make More Moves Jeffrey's direct advice: stop pondering, stop waiting for the perfect moment. 80% of operators listening need to move faster. (The other 20% might need to slow down and think - but that's not most of you.) [36:36] — Long-Term Thinkers Win. Short-Term Reactors Spin. Rob observes the difference between winners and everyone else: winners think in 3–5 year arcs. They're making decisions toward a known destination. Operators thinking in months and quarters change direction constantly and never compound their learning. [37:38] — Budget as a Floor, Not a Ceiling Jeffrey's mantra: build the budget, then be willing to break it. If a great hire shows up six months early, make the move. If you're paralyzed by the spreadsheet, you're not acting like an entrepreneur. The question isn't "is it in the budget?" - it's "how much more do we need to sell to justify this?" [40:46] — The Internal Compass: "Is It in the Client's Best Interest?" Jeffrey closes with the guiding question his team uses when evaluating every new idea or product: Is it actually in the client's best interest? He describes a recent all-hands meeting where this question killed a product launch - and why that's a feature, not a bug. [41:31] — Wrap-Up & How to Reach Jeffrey Scott Contact: jeff@jeffreyscott.biz | Website: jeffreyscott.biz (events section for the Grow Summit)

Joe Salemi | The Real Reason Landscaping Companies Struggle to Scale

00:00 — INTRODUCTION TO JOE SALEMI * Joe shares his 23+ year journey in the landscape industry * Experience with CNLA, Dynascape, private equity acquisition, and Landscape Ontario * Discussion around industry-wide perspective and patterns across businesses 03:06 — WHAT’S HOLDING LANDSCAPE COMPANIES BACK * Rising cost of living squeezing business owners and employees * Small and mid-market companies competing on lowest price * “Race to the bottom” pricing mentality hurting the industry * Homeowners becoming conditioned to choose the cheapest quote 05:05 — THE PANDEMIC BOOM AND ITS FALLOUT * Many contractors started businesses during the COVID boom * Easy demand masked weak sales systems and business fundamentals * Companies overbought trucks and equipment during peak demand * Some businesses folded once demand slowed down 06:06 — WHY SALES FOLLOW-UP IS STILL BROKEN * Contractors failing to respond to inquiries quickly * Joe shares firsthand experiences getting “crickets” from contact forms * Fast response is often the difference-maker in winning jobs * Automated booking and follow-up systems are a massive opportunity 10:29 — LANDSCAPE ONTARIO’S SALES & BUSINESS TRAINING * Landscape Ontario runs 160+ seminars annually * Topics include sales, marketing, operations, and business systems * Training available for both startups and established companies * Key message: stop waiting and start improving systems now 13:27 — WHY CHEAP PRICING IS DANGEROUS * Underpricing trains customers to shop only on price * Many contractors don’t fully understand their break-even numbers * Shift from “cheap” to “quality” positioning is essential * Ontario homeowners are willing to pay more for quality work 16:07 — COMMUNICATION AS A COMPETITIVE ADVANTAGE * Great communication builds trust before the quote stage * Simple updates and managing expectations set companies apart * Poor communication destroys deals before work even begins * Customer experience is a massive differentiator 18:07 — LANDSCAPE ONTARIO’S MASSIVE TRAINING EXPANSION * Landscape Ontario investing heavily in industry-wide training * Building a large-scale training facility in Milton * Goal: train up to 5,000 people annually * Spring training-style programs planned for landscape crews 25:35 — INVESTING IN PEOPLE BUILDS CULTURE * Training employees strengthens loyalty and company culture * Joe explains why development is one of the strongest retention tools * Businesses should view themselves as training organizations first 28:05 — THE BIGGEST OPPORTUNITY IN LANDSCAPING: STORMWATER MANAGEMENT * Rain gardens and nature-based solutions becoming huge opportunities * Municipal incentives and property tax programs emerging * Sustainable landscaping creating meaningful, future-focused work 31:13 — ADVOCACY WORK MOST CONTRACTORS NEVER SEE * Landscape Ontario influencing municipal policies and bylaws * Examples include stormwater initiatives and two-stroke engine regulations * Collaboration with government helps create practical solutions 35:54 — INDUSTRY COLLABORATION ACROSS NORTH AMERICA * Great Lakes associations sharing challenges and best practices * Landscape Ontario learning from peer associations across the region * Focus on continuous improvement and shared innovation 37:41 — NEW LANDSCAPE ONTARIO WEBSITE & RESOURCES * New website launched with contractor search functionality * Over 250,000 unique visitors in just a few months * Lead generation and education opportunities for members 38:52 — FINAL THOUGHTS & FUTURE PLANS * Joe encourages listeners to connect through LinkedIn or the website * Discussion about future podcast studio plans at the new facility * Closing thoughts on growth and industry development