Ep. 09 - The Soul-Crushing Cost of Adversarial Thinking

Ep. 10 - What Clients are Really Looking For

What are people really looking for when they call a lawyer? In this episode, I sit down with my former colleague Jane Lutz, who spent years serving as the first point of contact for clients at our law firm. With a background in human development and psychological services, Jane brought a perspective that was very different from the traditional legal mindset. Together, we explore what clients are actually experiencing when they enter the legal system, why so many people arrive in a state of crisis, and how the emotional realities of conflict are often overlooked in legal practice. Jane shares her observations from listening to hundreds of people tell some of the most painful stories of their lives. We discuss why clients often expect the legal system to provide healing, closure, and validation, why litigation can become emotionally exhausting, and what lawyers miss when they focus only on legal problems instead of the whole person. This conversation also explores lawyer burnout, client burnout, the limits of what litigation can provide, and why truly helping people may require a broader view of conflict and healing. IN THIS EPISODE: * What clients expect when they call a lawyer * Why people often just want to be heard * The emotional toll of litigation * Lawyer burnout and client burnout * Why money rarely provides complete resolution * The difference between solving a legal problem and helping a human being * How lawyers can begin seeing clients as whole people * What it means to become a healer of human conflict

Ep. 09 - The Soul-Crushing Cost of Adversarial Thinking

In this episode, I sit down with attorney, mediator, facilitator, and peacemaker Andy Kull to explore what becomes possible when lawyers move beyond purely adversarial ways of thinking. Listen to learn more about Andy's journey from commercial litigator to peacemaker, Together, we explore the distinction between adversarial and relational thinking, why so many lawyers experience burnout, and how the legal system teaches us to listen to respond instead of listening to understand. We also discuss the "art of peacemaking" and Andy's powerful principle of being tough on the issue while remaining gentle on the person. Whether you're a lawyer, mediator, leader, or someone navigating conflict in your own life, this conversation offers a thoughtful exploration of how understanding, curiosity, and human connection can transform the way we approach disagreement. IN THIS EPISODE: * Why Andy left traditional litigation after 15 years; * Adversarial vs. relational thinking; * The connection between conflict, stress, and nervous system regulation; * The cost of being trained to only listen to respond instead of gaining understanding; * Why peacemaking is an art; * What it means to be "Tough on the issue, gentle on the person"; * Burnout, happiness, and the limits of the thinking mind; and * What becomes possible when lawyers see themselves as healers of human conflict.

Ep. 08 - Understanding Before Resolution

In this episode, I’m joined by mediator and collaborative attorney Catherine Conner, a longtime teacher with the Center for Understanding in Conflict and one of the early practitioners of collaborative law. Catherine has spent more than four decades helping people navigate conflict through curiosity, listening, empathy, and deeper understanding rather than coercion, positional bargaining, or adversarial escalation. We explore: * the understanding-based model of mediation; * why so many legal processes focus on positions instead of human needs; * the risks of “client control”, coercion, and pressure-based mediation; * why active listening is far more difficult — and more powerful — than most people realize; and * how conflict can become an opportunity for growth and healing rather than simply something to win or survive. One of my favorite parts of this conversation was Catherine’s reflection that lawyers themselves can experience healing when they engage conflict differently — not just the clients. This episode is a thoughtful and hopeful conversation about what becomes possible when understanding comes before resolution. Learn more about the Center for Understanding in Conflict at: understandinginconflict.org [http://understandinginconflict.org]

Ep. 07 - Lawyers, Trauma, and the Cost of Disconnection

In this episode, I’m joined by lawyer, mediator, educator, and author Myrna McCallum for a deep conversation about trauma, emotional intelligence, and the hidden costs of disconnection inside the legal profession. Myrna shares her personal journey into law, her work developing trauma-informed legal practices, and why many lawyers are rewarded for behaviors that disconnect them from themselves and the people they serve. We explore: * what trauma-informed lawyering actually means; * how stress and trauma affect memory, communication, and decision-making; * why so many lawyers struggle with burnout, anxiety, and emotional suppression; and * how emotional intelligence may become one of the most important competencies for the future of the profession. This conversation also explores a larger question at the heart of the podcast: What might become possible if lawyers saw themselves not only as advocates… but as healers of human conflict? Myrna’s work can be found at: myrnamccallum.co [http://myrnamccallum.co] Her podcast, The Trauma Informed Lawyer, is available wherever podcasts are found.

Ep. 06 - The Future of Law: There must be another way.

Over the last few episodes, I’ve shared my personal journey away from litigation and toward mediation, coaching, and integrative approaches to conflict. But the more people I’ve met along the way, the more I’ve realized this isn’t just my story. There is a quiet evolution happening inside the legal profession. More and more lawyers are beginning to question whether the adversarial system is actually helping heal conflict — or simply escalating it. Others are exploring mediation, restorative practices, trauma-informed lawyering, coaching, collaborative practice, and new ways of thinking about the role of lawyers in society. In this episode, I reflect on: * why so many lawyers feel burned out or disconnected from their work; * why the profession resists change; and * why I’m ultimately hopeful about where things may be headed. This episode is also a transition point for the podcast as I begin bringing on guests who are exploring these same questions from many different perspectives. Maybe the future of law isn’t about becoming less human in order to survive the profession. Maybe it’s about becoming more human again.