Podcasts By Dr. Kirk Adams: Interview with Daria Marmer, Founder, Cookie Voice Recipes

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🎙️ Podcasts By Dr. Kirk Adams: Interview with Daria Marmer, Founder, Cookie Voice Recipes https://drkirkadams.com/podcasts-by-dr-kirk-adams-07-08-2026/ [https://drkirkadams.com/podcasts-by-dr-kirk-adams-07-08-2026/] In this warm episode of Podcasts by Dr. Kirk Adams, Kirk, a lifelong, enthusiastic blind cook, talks with Daria Marmer [https://www.linkedin.com/in/dariamarmer/], founder of Cookie Voice Recipes [https://cookievoicerecipes.com], a hands-free, voice-first cooking app built with blind and low-vision cooks in mind. A product manager and Cordon Bleu-trained cook, Daria explains how the app began as a fix for her own annoyance, dirty hands, no way to check the recipe, and, after she showed a prototype to the Carroll Center for the Blind in Newton, Massachusetts, became something far bigger. She built it herself using AI coding tools (Codex and Claude). Users pull any recipe into a clean, ad-free view and simply ask "Cookie" questions out loud, how much sugar, read the ingredients, what's step three, even "I ran out of sour cream, what can I use instead?", with AI answers grounded in the actual recipe. Kirk, who brailles out recipes on a Perkins Brailler and clips Braille pages from Cook's Illustrated, connects the app to two audiences: older people losing vision to conditions like diabetic retinopathy, and young blind people setting up their first kitchens. Daria shares favorite feedback (a woman who no longer has to eat Stouffer's every night), the roadmap (Android next; partner-provided recipes for people brand-new to blind cooking, via the Carroll Center), pricing (a free tier plus a $3.99/month or $30/year AI tier), and where to find it, the App Store (iOS), chef@cookievoicerecipes.com, and @cookievoiceapp on Instagram. Kirk asks her back in six months. TRANSCRIPT: Podcast Commentator: Welcome to Podcasts by Dr. Kirk Adams, where we bring you powerful conversations with leading voices in disability rights, employment, and inclusion. Our guests share their expertise, experiences, and strategies to inspire action and create a more inclusive world. If you're passionate about social justice or want to make a difference, you're in the right place. Let's dive in with your host, Dr. Kirk Adams. Dr. Kirk Adams: Hello, everybody, and welcome to another episode of Podcasts by Dr. Kirk Adams. I am that Dr. Kirk Adams, talking to you from my home office in Seattle, Washington. And today I have a guest that I share a passion with, and that is for cooking and eating. And today I have Daria Marmer, who is founder of Cookie Voice Recipes. Hi, Daria. Daria Marmer: Hi. How are you? Dr. Kirk Adams: I'm very, very well. I'm very excited to talk about your project — the app that helps people who are blind and visually impaired cook efficiently and happily and seamlessly in their kitchens. I cook a lot. I'm a Braille reader. I have a notebook full of recipes that I brailled out on a Perkins Brailler. I have Braille pages cut out of Cook's Illustrated and Better Homes and Gardens magazines, which I get in Braille free from the National Library Service. And it's a big, untidy mess. And as I search through recipes and don't have them well organized, the favorites are all covered with remnants of cooking. So I'm very excited to start using the app. For those of you who don't know me, I am a blind person. My retina is detached. When I was five years old, I went to a school for blind children for second and third grade — learned my Braille skills, blindness skills: reading, writing Braille, using the long white cane, typing on a typewriter, so I could go to public school when I was ready, which was fourth grade, when I was nine. I'm the oldest of three siblings. When we turned ten, my mom told us we were responsible for making dinner for the family one night per week, and she would help us understand what we wanted to cook, and get the ingredients, and help us cook it. So I've been in the kitchen as a totally blind person for a long time. I will throw my brother under the bus to say that he made hot dogs and baked beans out of the can every week — he did not vary his menus. I was much more adventurous, and I cook a lot. My wife and I love, love to enjoy good food together. And I met Daria, and when I found out about your project — just so exciting. Want to share it with everybody who either loves to be in the kitchen as a blind person, or would like to be. And, Daria, I'm just going to turn it over to you and just ask you: where did the idea come from? What was the genesis? How have you developed it? Where is the app at today? And where do you see things going? So I'll hand you the talking stick. I'll reserve the right as host to pop in with random questions as they occur to me. So, it's all you. Daria Marmer: Thanks, Kirk. So, I come at this from the cooking and tech side of things. I went to culinary school a long, long, long time ago, and then have had a really wonderful career in technology. And a couple months ago I had this problem, which is: I would hate reaching for my cell phone when I was cooking, because my hands were all dirty. And so I would ask my family in the kitchen just to tell me what the next step was in the recipe, or how much of a certain ingredient I needed. Because the way recipes are written, they say 'add the sugar,' 'add the flour,' 'add the salt.' And then you're like, well, can you remind me how much sugar was that? So I used to ask my family those questions when I was cooking in the kitchen, and I realized, hey, why don't I solve this problem for myself? I prototyped a quick app on my laptop, and that was kind of going to be the end of it, until I had this thought, and I said, wait — not looking at my phone, that's kind of an annoyance for me. I am sighted. But for people who are blind and visually impaired, this could be a real game-changer. And so then I started doing a lot of research. I partnered with the Carroll Center in Newton, Massachusetts, and kind of showed them the prototype, and I said, hey, is this— would this be interesting? Should I go forward with this? And they were like, oh my gosh, yes, absolutely. And it was born. Dr. Kirk Adams: So, I was the president and CEO of the American Foundation for the Blind, which was Helen Keller's organization. It was an honor to have the opportunity to lead the organization. But we're pretty publicly known, so I got contacted so often by big-hearted, lovely, well-intended sighted people who thought they had come up with a great solution to make the lives of blind people easier, without ever talking to a blind person, getting any feedback. And oftentimes it was, 'That's already a free app,' 'That's already taken care of,' or, 'We don't really need that.' So I just wanted to highlight the fact that you contacted a very reputable organization — the Carroll Center for the Blind, named for Father Carroll, in Newton, Massachusetts — and you got feedback, you got input. So, hats off to you on that. Daria Marmer: Yeah. I mean, it was so interesting. In my life, I've gone to hundreds of cooking classes now. And, as part of developing this app, I went to a cooking class that was specifically for people who had lost their vision. And I had never done a blind cooking class before. And it was really interesting and fascinating — just, I got to see firsthand some of the challenges that were involved in that. Because, you know, you have a Braille recipe next to you, you're completely dirty, you're going to completely mess that page up, it's going to become hard to read. So, for all of the reasons, I thought, this is really interesting. And then, yes, the teacher of that class saw the prototype, and she said, 'Yes, we should definitely— this app should exist.' And then that's when I said, okay, cool, I'll build it. Dr. Kirk Adams: Nice, nice. So, do you have the technical skills? Did you develop it yourself, or did you bring in app developers? Or what is the process of having an idea and doing something on your laptop, and then now it's an app that we can download on our phones? Daria Marmer: Yeah. So, I am a product manager by training. And so that means that I've been building software with the help of engineers for many years now. But I didn't really do a lot by myself — I didn't code a lot by myself. And recently, in the whole universe, this idea of vibe coding and AI agentic coding has come up, and I decided that I was going to do it myself and really use those tools to get this product out the door. And I've been proudly using both Codex and Claude to make this a reality. And I have done it myself. Dr. Kirk Adams: Amazing. And so, tell us about the app. What's the user experience like? What can I accomplish in the kitchen using it? Daria Marmer: Sure. So, the first thing that I have to dispel — people are like, 'I don't want to just cook cookies.' Yes, I know. This is not an app— just a cookbook. This is not a bunch of cookie recipes. Okay? So the idea is, you can pull basically any recipe that you have into the app. You can do that through our share extension, you can do that through copy-pasting the text, you can do that by finding the URL and then putting in the URL, or using the baked-in search that is in the app already — selecting the recipe that you want, and then it'll pull it into a really nice recipe view. And in this recipe view, you've gotten rid of all of the ads and junk that often clutter recipe pages. So it's really, really simple. So that's just the first thing that is amazing about it. And then, once you have that, then you can start asking any questions that you want, out loud. And you can say, 'Cookie, how much sugar do I need?' 'Cookie, read me all of the ingredients.' Or, 'Cookie, what's step three?' And it will give you answers based on everything that's in the recipe. And one of the things that I think is really cool is, you can actually stretch it further, and you can say, 'Cookie, I just ran out of sour cream. What can I use instead?' And it will send that to AI and get an answer that is based on the recipe that you're actually making right now. So it will give you something that will actually work in that space. So that's what it will do. Dr. Kirk Adams: Is it just my recipes that I put in? Or is there a database that's broader than my personal collection of recipes? Daria Marmer: So, you can build a collection of recipes into the app by searching for anything that's available on the web. It also has, like— Dr. Kirk Adams: I can say, I want to make— I want to make beef Burgundy. Give me a recipe. Daria Marmer: Exactly. Dr. Kirk Adams: Yeah. Daria Marmer: Okay. And then pull that in. And then, once you have that in your app, there's a section of the app for 'my recipes,' and then you can see everything that you have cooked, and really start to have a menu of different things that you can pull up. Well— Dr. Kirk Adams: Another thing I've done is remembered a recipe, and remembered a couple of the ingredients but not kind of the whole thing, and say, you know, 'I know it had leeks, and I know it had bacon and eggs, and I think it was a frittata,' and you could give me some ideas of what I'm trying to drive at, I assume. Daria Marmer: Yeah, absolutely. So you can put all of that into the search, and it will come back and say, 'Do you want to make a bacon, leek, and cheese frittata? Or a bacon— vegan quiche?' Or whatever it is. So you can put all of that into search, and it will come back with some interesting recipes. You could choose which one you want to make. Dr. Kirk Adams: That's great. It's out there now, right? People can download it — which I'm going to do after this episode. Daria Marmer: Yeah. We're close to 1,500 downloads now. Dr. Kirk Adams: And iOS and Android? Daria Marmer: Good question. Right now it is only iOS, but Android is very high on my list as something that I'd like to really get out this year, hopefully. Dr. Kirk Adams: And what kind of feedback have you gotten? I assume there's a way for you to get some sort of data or feedback as people are using the app. Daria Marmer: Yes. I have gotten a lot of feedback, both constructive and just laudatory. So, on the constructive side, I do work very, very closely with people who are blind and visually impaired to make the app more usable and more friendly. With every iteration that I do, that's front and center in my mind — about what the VoiceOver experience is like, and generally how this all works. So I get lots of feedback there. And then also, I think my favorite piece of feedback so far is from a woman who lost her sight later in life. And she said, 'I used to love to cook, and this is one big step for me to not have Stouffer's every night.' And, somebody who really likes to cook and likes to eat, the idea of eating Stouffer's every night is just so sad. So, thrilled that this would be something that really helps her eat better. Dr. Kirk Adams: Yeah, I'm just thinking of— most people who are blind and visually impaired have lived most of their lives as sighted people, and have become visually impaired as part of the aging process. So, as you go up the age range, the percentage of people who are legally blind increases with age. So I'm thinking of that population. And then I'm thinking about kids, in the end, that end up moving into independent living — move to go to college, going to move out of the house, set up their own household. So I'm thinking the older folks and the younger folks really come to mind as people who could really benefit from Cookie Voice Recipes. Daria Marmer: Yeah. And I will say, it is made for being accessible, but when I think about accessibility, I really think that it's for everyone. It is also for people who are sighted, who just don't want to touch their phones. And, you were saying, children— my daughter made an amazing raspberry cupcake recipe last week, and she used Cookie for it. And it was amazing just to see her. And when she got stuck on something, she would ask. And it's just really, really nice to see that. Dr. Kirk Adams: Fun. How old is your daughter? Daria Marmer: She'll be 12 in September. Dr. Kirk Adams: Nice. Nice one. The 11-year-old daughter makes some raspberry pastries for mom. Daria Marmer: Oh, yeah. I got all of one. She, like, 'No, these are— these are for me, and I'm choosing to give them to you.' But I did sneak one in. Dr. Kirk Adams: Good. So, tell— if you don't mind backtracking quite a ways back. You mentioned pretty casually you went to culinary school a while ago. What was that like? Daria Marmer: So, I went to Cordon Bleu in Paris. It was an amazing experience. I think the thing that most people don't know about culinary school is that the first semester— and it's a three-semester program, or three-trimester program, and I was lucky enough to do the first trimester, but I had to go resume normal life instead of completing the full degree. But the first semester, it was all of the techniques of cooking, and they really didn't care about flavor. And that was something that was really, really interesting. It was mainly like, this is how you have to learn all of the different cuts, this is all the different sauces, and this is all of the different types of proteins that you would ever need to cook. And here are some classic French recipes while you're at it. But we used salt and pepper and nutmeg — those were the three spices, the three seasonings, that we ever used. And that was really surprising. And I know that they start using more things in the intermediate and advanced groups, but that was very surprising to me when I jumped in, and I was like, oh my gosh, this is actually quite boring. I haven't cooked anything from the recipes that I did at culinary school — they're all very heavy on the cream and butter, and I was like, oh, I want more fresh things. But, yeah, that was really fun. Dr. Kirk Adams: Yeah. Another thought — again, I'll ask random questions. So, diabetic retinopathy is one of the leading causes of blindness as people age. So, I know recipes that are compatible with people living with type 2 diabetes — the low-carb lifestyle. Are there ways to ask Cookie to give me those types of recipes? Daria Marmer: Absolutely. The search that you could do— you could literally write 'low-carb cheesecake,' and you would find a recipe for a low-carb cheesecake, if you want. Now, I'm not sure I would really recommend a low-carb cheesecake, but, you know, I suppose you could do it without the graham cracker crust, and that would be okay. One of the things that I'm really looking forward to, as the app progresses, is partnering with different organizations to automatically pull in recipes for their audience. And that's something that I'm working with a couple organizations right now to do. So, for example, I'm working with the Carroll Center right now, and thinking about how to get some of the recipes that are written specifically for people who are brand new to blind cooking. And so, if you purchase the app, you will see all of those written out, so that they are so detailed — so you can learn how to move around the kitchen safely, and what to do around the frying pan, and how to set it on top of your stovetop and then not have to move it around again, so you don't accidentally— you don't have spatial awareness for that. And so, she's working on a bunch of— not apps, a bunch of recipes that people might be able to buy through Cookie. And then it becomes the platform. And that's something that is hopefully going to come out in the next year. It's a really exciting part of what we're doing right now. Dr. Kirk Adams: So, other than downloading the app at this point, how can people get involved and support the project? Would that be the main thing you'd like people to do — download, use, and give you feedback? Daria Marmer: Yeah, absolutely. And if there are any ideas that you have for features and functionality, I do incorporate a lot of the things that get sent to me. I think that's really, really valuable. There's a 'give me feedback' option within the app that I read absolutely every single one of them. And if you put in your email address in that feedback form, then I will respond to you. That's optional — you can give me feedback without your email address, but then I don't know who to respond to. But I do read everything. Dr. Kirk Adams: Fabulous. And, so people are aware — is there a cost to the app? Is there a free version and a paid version? How is that structured? Daria Marmer: Yeah. There's a free version, and there's always going to be a free version — I think it's really important to do that. I don't want to be inaccessible by any means. So, yes, the free version will always exist. There's also a paid subscription version that adds on some AI features, and that is $3.99 a month, or $30 a year. Dr. Kirk Adams: Well, I'm going to do that one, because I'm trying to get with the AI generation. I'm trying to use AI, trying to incorporate AI into my life. I think— I don't know, I think it's here to stay. So I would like to know how to maximize the value of the resource. Daria Marmer: But it is pretty magical. Dr. Kirk Adams: So, other than the feedback form on the app, are there other ways people can connect with you? Daria Marmer: Yep. You can send me an email at chef@cookievoicerecipes.com. And also— I just, just yesterday, finally launched my Instagram page. So you can follow me at @cookievoiceapp. So there's not much on my Instagram yet, but, starting from nothing, the only way is up. So there's gonna be more happening there shortly. Dr. Kirk Adams: Great, great. So, as for me, people can reach me at my website, which is — 'doctor,' as in D-R — https://drkirkadams.com. And I'm always on LinkedIn every day, which is Kirk Adams, PhD, on LinkedIn. So, Daria, what I'd like to do is have you back in about six months to talk about where Cookie Voice Recipes is at that time — making great strides and great progress. I'm really glad we connected. My passion for cooking and food, your initiative to combine your culinary training and your tech training to create the app — marvelous. The fact that you sought initial input from the Carroll Center, and now you continue to gather feedback from users, including blind and low-vision users — terrific. And just really enjoyed our conversation. Looking forward to next time. Daria Marmer: Yes, thank you so much. It was a pleasure. Dr. Kirk Adams: And, with that — happy cooking to everybody. Get in the kitchen, cook something, and enjoy with joy. By yourself, a solitary, quiet meal can be a wonderful thing. So, either by yourself or with friends and family — but let Cookie Voice Recipes help you be very creative in the kitchen. That's a lot of fun. So, with that, I'll say farewell, and we'll see you next time on Podcasts by Dr. Kirk Adams. Podcast Commentator: Thank you for listening to Podcasts by Dr. Kirk Adams. We hope you enjoyed today's conversation. Don't forget to subscribe, share, or leave a review at https://www.drkirkadams.com. Together, we can amplify these voices and create positive change. Until next time, keep listening, keep learning, and keep making an impact.

Podcasts By Dr. Kirk Adams: Interview with Joel Snyder, Founder & President, Audio Description Associates, LLC and Founding Director Emeritus, ACB's Audio Description Project

🎙️ Podcasts By Dr. Kirk Adams: Interview with Joel Snyder, Founder & President, Audio Description Associates, LLC and Founding Director Emeritus, ACB's Audio Description Project https://drkirkadams.com/podcasts-by-dr-kirk-adams-07-02-2026/ [https://drkirkadams.com/podcasts-by-dr-kirk-adams-07-02-2026/] In this wide-ranging episode of Podcasts by Dr. Kirk Adams, Kirk welcomes Joel Snyder [https://www.linkedin.com/in/joel-snyder-626aa95/], founder and president of Audio Description Associates, LLC [https://audiodescribe.com/], and founding director emeritus of the ACB's Audio Description Project [https://adp.acb.org/], for a history and status check on audio description. Snyder traces the field from its 1980 origins at Washington, D.C.'s Arena Stage (where he helped Dr. Margaret Pfanstiehl and Chet Avery invent the technique, premiering it in 1981 with George Bernard Shaw's Major Barbara) through WGBH's Descriptive Video Service, the Secondary Audio Program, VHS and DVD, and the 2010 21st Century Communications and Video Accessibility Act, up to today's streaming era. He demonstrates description live with a segment from the Iranian film The Color of Paradise and walks through the ACB Audio Description Project's resources, its annual conference, training institutes, the BADIE youth contest, and the nearly 15,000-title database at https://adp.acb.org [https://adp.acb.org]. The conversation then turns to AI, where Snyder argues that while AI text-to-speech narration has its place, nothing matches a trained, often blind, human voice talent for dramas and feature films. He proves it by playing two versions of a Call of Duty: Black Ops 6 description he wrote, one voiced by ElevenLabs, one voiced by himself, and Kirk immediately prefers the human take. Snyder closes on the economics (~$5,000 to describe a film that cost $50 million to make) and points listeners to https://audiodescribe.com [https://audiodescribe.com] and https://adp.acb.org [https://adp.acb.org]. TRANSCRIPT: Podcast Commentator: Welcome to Podcasts by Dr. Kirk Adams, where we bring you powerful conversations with leading voices in disability rights, employment, and inclusion. Our guests share their expertise, experiences, and strategies to inspire action and create a more inclusive world. If you're passionate about social justice or want to make a difference, you're in the right place. Let's dive in with your host, Dr. Kirk Adams. Dr. Kirk Adams: Welcome, everybody, to another episode of Podcasts by Dr. Kirk Adams. I am that Dr. Kirk Adams, talking to you from my home office in Seattle, Washington. And today, a guest I've known for quite some time. Today we have Joel Snyder with us. He's founder and president of Audio Description Associates, LLC, and he is founding director emeritus of ACB's — the American Council of the Blind's — Audio Description Project. So, hello, Joel. Joel Snyder: Hello, Kirk. It's great to be with you. Dr. Kirk Adams: So, so glad you're here. So it was interesting, because the ACB's Audio Description Project came up about two hours ago. Oh, my. I was interviewing David Grabias, who's the producer of a documentary called Braille [Brailled It], about the Braille Challenge. Joel Snyder: Wonderful. Dr. Kirk Adams: And one of the participants and directors is a Braille Challenge winner named Christopher Morgan. And we were talking about the documentary and where it's showing, and they said, 'We'll be doing a special showing at the upcoming ACB conference, in conjunction with their Audio Description Project.' Joel Snyder: There you go. Sure. Dr. Kirk Adams: There you go. So I've known about Joel for about as long as I've known about audio description, and I can't remember when I first experienced it, but I remember being really excited about the whole concept. And I know, for many years, it was kind of hard to find recorded materials — films, television programs, documentaries — that had audio description. Becoming more common now, which is a wonderful thing. I was across the lake here on the Microsoft Redmond campus last fall with a group called the Pacific Northwest Accessibility Professionals. And we went to the Microsoft disability lab, and they were showing a short film piece about Microsoft's disability efforts. And I heard a voice doing audio description. My wife and I— Ros said, 'That's Joel.' So everywhere I go, there you are. Joel Snyder: There you are. You can't get away from me. Dr. Kirk Adams: That's right. So, so pleased that you gave us some time today. You've been involved in audio description since the very beginning, so we'd love to hear a little bit of a history lesson about how it's developed and evolved and, of course, your personal journey. And then, really, where we're at today. What are the opportunities to expand and enhance access for people who are blind and visually impaired to media and entertainment? Of course, the dynamics around artificial intelligence and how that fits into the picture. And then, where do you see things going? So I'm just going to hand it over to you. I will reserve the right as host to jump in with the random questions as they pop into my mind. Joel Snyder: Of course. Dr. Kirk Adams: It's all yours. Joel Snyder: It's your show, Kirk. Well, it's great to be with you, and I'm glad you mentioned being out on the Microsoft campus, because Microsoft — and VITAC, owned now by a company called Verbit — are really one of my largest clients. I mentioned that to offer a tip of the hat to Satya Nadella and Microsoft, because they, as an obviously major, huge corporation, have a real commitment to accessibility. People may not know that they produce thousands of short videos every year — promotional videos, educational videos for their staff, commercials, that sort of thing. And they are committed to making every piece of media that they produce accessible. Captioned. They're all audio described. And that's— not too many corporations make that commitment — but it's increasing. We're seeing more description in the private sector like that. And that's a good thing. Dr. Kirk Adams: For those listening who may not be familiar with audio description, could you give just a brief explanation of what it is, and maybe some examples of it — or people can hear it, or do a little demonstration? Yeah, let's do that. Joel Snyder: Audio description. My tagline, my own company, is The Visual Made Verbal, really. And that's the title of my book ACB published in 2014: The Visual Made Verbal, a comprehensive training manual and guide to the history and applications of audio description. And I'm pleased to mention that it's in Braille. It's available for free on BARD. It is in two different audiobook versions, and printed now in seven languages. So it's gotten out and about. And it all kind of stems from work that I did in the '70s. I've always been involved in theater and acting and voice work. And in the early '70s, I remember reading textbooks for a blind student at the University of Maryland. And that went very well. I enjoyed that a lot. That led to recording talking books for the Library of Congress here in Washington, D.C. And that led to my finding out about a radio station here — the Metropolitan Washington Ear. And there's — oh, golly, Kirk, you know better than I do — perhaps two dozen of these closed-circuit radio stations that broadcast on a subcarrier of a public radio, perhaps. And they provide readings of the daily newspaper, of novels, short stories, magazine articles. And I thought that was a wonderful way to use my voice and get some good experience. So I auditioned to be a voice talent volunteer for the Washington Ear. And they must have had a weak moment or something, and they— Dr. Kirk Adams: That I didn't know about you. So I was involved with the Washington Talking Book and Braille Library here. They had the Evergreen Radio Reading Service. There you— Joel Snyder: Go. Exactly. And so I did that for a good ten years. I was the voice of the Washington Post on Sundays on the Washington Ear. And even in the '70s, I remember wondering about — gee, there are all kinds of images in a newspaper. There are graphics, there are illustrations, there are photos. What do we do when we get to those? Sometimes there's a caption, sometimes not. We could certainly read the caption, but what is it? How is the photo really put together? What's it look like? And we just sort of — we kind of ad-libbed a little something about it. But there was no such thing as audio description until 1980, when the founder of the Ear, Dr. Margaret Pfanstiehl, a blind woman, and a good friend of mine, Chet Avery, a blind man who had worked at the Department of Education — they were on a committee, an access committee for Arena Stage here in Washington, a very well-known regional theater. And if you think about that: 1980, having an accessibility committee — nobody was doing that. More common now, perhaps. And they were at a meeting, and Arena was all excited because they had just installed an assisted listening system. And again, that's ubiquitous — everybody has a system that boosts sound for folks with hearing loss, and you wear a headset and you hear the movie or the production a little more clearly, a little more loudly. And of course, Chet and Margaret are on the committee, and they thought, this is wonderful — but what have you got for us? We're blind. We can hear. And they figured, if it's just a microphone on the stage, couldn't you have a second channel? Someone holding a microphone offstage, letting us know what's going on — maybe using the pauses between bits and pieces of dialogue, or critical sound elements. And Arena said, gee, we've never heard of that before. And Margaret said, yeah, we've never heard of it before either. It didn't exist. But they knew that Margaret had access to a studio. And, well — Margaret, why don't you think about it, and we'll give it a go if you can figure out how we would do such a thing. And so she came back to the Ear. She grabbed me — I was an actor and voice talent and an English teacher — and we had a couple of others. And we sat down and thought about how we would do this. I was already a union member, an acting union member, so I had some insight to provide. But we just sort of hammered out the basics of what we would do. What would we call it? Audio description. We came up with— Dr. Kirk Adams: All right. Joel Snyder: And nowadays, I think most people refer to it as audio description, but others have taken their own tack with it. And it's called verbal description, or audio narration, or descriptive audio. Or WGBH — when they started doing things, they wanted to brand it in a certain way, so they called it Descriptive Video Service. And everybody was talking about DVS as a synonym, really, for audio description. Dr. Kirk Adams: So, okay — but it's all the same thing. Joel Snyder: Exactly, exactly. It really is. And so, 1981 was the premiere of audio description with live theater — a premiere of an audio description service. Let's see, it was a production of George Bernard Shaw's Major Barbara at Arena Stage. And it went well. People began hearing about it, and other theaters, eventually — dance, opera, all kinds of performing arts forms. And my good friend Barry Cronin, still with us — he was at WGBH in Boston, and he heard about what we were doing and thought, wow, this should be on television. This should be something folks could use to access video and analog television in those days. And he knew something that we did not know, and that was: he knew all about the Secondary Audio Program. Dr. Kirk Adams: Yeah. Joel Snyder: Available. With television, it allows folks to turn on a second audio channel. And it was there for Spanish translation, actually, but not used much. And he thought, well, this would be perfect for description. So we actually — oh golly, in about 1980— Dr. Kirk Adams: Joel, we always have our audio description turned on — yes, on television — and often need to turn it off when the sporting event starts, and the Spanish play-by-play. My Spanish is rudimentary, so I turn off the audio description feature so I can hear the English play-by-play. Joel Snyder: You and many thousands of other blind folks around the country. No, you're absolutely right, that's how it works. And we did, in 1984, '85, a pilot for WGBH — we wrote and voiced a description for a number of American Playhouse programs. And I wrote and voiced three of the first programs broadcast with audio description, and it went well. And so, in 1985, WGBH inaugurated their Descriptive Video Service. And it's just gone on from there. They started doing description on VHS videotapes. You remember those? Dr. Kirk Adams: Oh, yes. Joel Snyder: And then some folks were taking the original audio from a program and pairing it with audio description and putting it out there on audio cassettes. That's another oldie but goodie. So it got picked up for television. Eventually VHS was a great thing, but you couldn't turn it on and off. You had to have dual inventory at Blockbuster Video. Dr. Kirk Adams: Okay. So you'd have the audio-described version and the non-audio-described version. Okay. Joel Snyder: Exactly. And that's a bit cumbersome. Yeah. But, you know, DVDs came out, and that's a perfect bit of hardware for using audio description, because you could turn it on and off, like director's commentary. So that was very popular. Nowadays, DVDs are kind of rare, basically. But we have description now on streaming. Just about every commercial film that comes out has an audio description track. So one can access it in the movie theaters, television too. In 2010, really, President Obama signed the 21st Century Communications and Video Accessibility Act, and that was the first time legislation actually mandated audio description with broadcast television. Captioning had been around for years and had already been mandated. And these days, of course, it's at 100% — of television programs must be captioned. We haven't caught up with description; it's still a tiny, tiny percentage of all broadcasts. But eventually, I think that legislation will be revised — and it's in the works, actually, in Congress — and hopefully we'll see that passed and signed into law, and we'll have a lot more description on broadcast television. Dr. Kirk Adams: Yes. Joel Snyder: So, but yeah — I've got a little sample that I think might go on. Dr. Kirk Adams: Yeah, let's hear it. Joel Snyder: It's a— I use this— I train describers all around the world, and I oftentimes use this as a demonstration. This is a short excerpt from the feature film The Color of Paradise. Got about 25 years old now, made in Iran. Beautiful film. A major motion picture — was in movie theaters and broadcast on television. But some time ago, before audio description was popular, before it was available in movie theaters. So I thought, let's listen to a short segment of the film — the original audio track, professional film, professional soundtrack. You just listen to it, and that should be no problem, right? Let's give it a try. What can you glean about the film by listening only? Dr. Kirk Adams: Joel, we're not hearing it. Joel Snyder: You weren't hearing anything? Dr. Kirk Adams: No — we're hearing something. It was just a couple squawks. Joel Snyder: That's right. Well, actually— Dr. Kirk Adams: That's it. Joel Snyder: That's it. I played only 30 seconds. Dr. Kirk Adams: Okay. Joel Snyder: The whole— Dr. Kirk Adams: —thing goes. All right. Joel Snyder: The segment goes two and a half minutes. Dr. Kirk Adams: We heard a couple of squawks, and— Joel Snyder: Yeah, and it just happens — that's a segment of the film where there's no dialogue. There's just these birds squawking. And I don't know — Kirk, you would know better than I would, but if I was a blind person, after 30 seconds I'd be out of the movie theater. Dr. Kirk Adams: Yeah. Joel Snyder: I don't get it. Dr. Kirk Adams: Okay. Joel Snyder: I'd be with my elbow to the guy next to me, saying, 'What? Why? What's going on? Wait. Tell me.' And then we get thrown out of the movie theater. So audio description takes care of that issue. So what I'll play right now is the segment. Dr. Kirk Adams: Maybe. Joel Snyder: Let it go on. It's only a couple minutes. And what you'll hear now is those squawks again, but you'll also hear the audio description that I wrote and voiced when this was broadcast on national television — oh golly, about 20 years ago, something like that. So let's try to see, by listening. Dr. Kirk Adams: All right. [Demo audio — The Color of Paradise, description written and voiced by Joel Snyder]: Mohammad kneels and taps his hands through the thick ground cover of brown curled leaves. Brown nestling struggles on the ground near Mohammad's hand. His palm hovers above the baby bird. He lays his hand lightly over the tiny creature. Smiling, Mohammad curls his fingers around the chick and scoops it into his hands. He stands and strokes its nearly featherless head with a fingertip. Mohammad starts as the bird nips his finger. He taps his finger on the chick's gaping beak. He tilts his head back, then drops it forward. Mohammad tips the chick into his front shirt pocket, wrapping his legs and arms around a tree trunk. Mohammad climbs. He latches onto a tangle of thin upper branches. His legs flail for a foothold. Mohammad stretches an arm between a fork in the trunk of the tree and wedges in his head and shoulder. His shoes slip on the rough bark. He wraps his legs around the lower trunk, then uses his arms to pull himself higher. He rises into thicker foliage and holds onto tangles of smaller branches, gaining his footing. Mohammad stands upright and cocks his head to one side. An adult bird flies from a nearby branch. Mohammad extends his open hand. He touches a branch and runs his fingers over wide green leaves. He pats his hand down the length of the branch. His fingers trace the smooth bark of the upper branches, search the network of connecting tree limbs, and discover their joints. Above his head, Mohammad's fingers find a dense mass of woven twigs. A bird's nest. Smiling, he removes the chick from his shirt pocket and drops it gently into the nest beside another fledgling. He rubs the top of the chick's head with his index finger. Mohammad wiggles his finger like a worm and taps a chick's open beak. Smiling, he slowly lowers his hand. Joel Snyder: Wow, that's a lot more clear, I think. Dr. Kirk Adams: Yeah. I'm sorry — I said we're not hearing anything but a few squawks. Joel Snyder: Oh, that's all right. That's the point, really. Dr. Kirk Adams: And, yeah. Joel Snyder: Yeah — that movie provides a great example, I think. And what's fun also is, I'll ask folks at this point, 'Well, tell me — what did you learn about Mohammad just from having listened to the audio description of his relationship with the birds and the trees and nature?' And they'll say, 'Oh, he's a young boy. He's thin, perhaps wiry. He can climb trees. He's compassionate. He likes animals.' And all of that's true. But what oftentimes they don't pick up on — some people will, certainly — is that Mohammad himself, his visage, what he looks like, had already been described earlier in the film. You hear that in this segment — you hear he has a shirt with a pocket, and he's got shoes, and he has pants on. I've seen the film, I know that. But what you discover — and I think you discover, if you're listening closely to that segment — Mohammad is blind. He's a young boy, about 11 years old, totally blind. And he listens to what's going on. And not only that, his fingers are active. They find the nest in the tree. They trace— Dr. Kirk Adams: —the branches, and— Joel Snyder: —such. So it's a nice segment, very nice. I use that to teach different fundamentals of description techniques that we use. Dr. Kirk Adams: Well, let's talk a little bit about the American Council of the Blind — their role, the Audio Description Project, how that can be a resource for people. ACB has been a very forward-thinking leader in this space. I think in your introduction, it was 'founding director emeritus.' So it sounds like you've been involved from the beginning there as well. Joel Snyder: That's right. It basically— it was in, golly, 2010, working with Christopher Gray and Mitch Pomerantz, who were officers of the ACB in those days. We thought, there ought to be a blindness service organization that really champions audio description and teaches people about it, because it was getting more and more popular. And they bought into it. And just from an idea like that, it has grown into really an important repository for information about audio description. The project now— well, we have a conference every year. There are awards given for the great audio description happening in this country and abroad. We have a great contest for blind kids who write in and provide reviews of described material. Dr. Kirk Adams: Okay. Joel Snyder: It's called BADIE — Benefits of Audio Description in Education. We do two training institutes to train describers. We've done 27 of them to date, now two a year usually. But our most visible initiative is probably the website, which is simply adp.acb.org. When we started, relatively few DVDs were out there with description. And now, just on our website, we list almost 15,000 DVDs that have description, or they're streaming. And you can look by state, actually, and find out what movie theaters, what movies, what performing arts space, what museums in your region have audio description. So it's been an important service, I think, for anybody that gets hooked on audio description. And we've got a lot of folks out there now who really champion it. Dr. Kirk Adams: I see a social media post on Facebook from ADP and ACB that say, 'Five new titles on Netflix,' and list the titles. Joel Snyder: Yeah, we— Dr. Kirk Adams: You've tracked that programming. Absolutely. You keep a current, constantly updated database, then. Joel Snyder: That's right, that's right. Dr. Kirk Adams: For people who are blind or visually impaired, or people who just want to check it out— Joel Snyder: That's right. Dr. Kirk Adams: —find an audio-described title. Joel Snyder: That's right. I mean, I'll give hats off to Fred Brack, who's been the longtime webmaster. He does a lot of that work, checking out — making sure we have current information about what's described. And a woman named Diana Leonard is the Audio Description Project coordinator. And she's low vision, and they do a great job just pulling together all the different aspects of the project. Dr. Kirk Adams: So, adp.acb.org. Joel Snyder: Exactly. Thank you. Dr. Kirk Adams: So, I don't know if it's an elephant in the room, but it's something big in the room. It's called artificial intelligence. Joel Snyder: Oh my. Dr. Kirk Adams: And I know, last time we spoke, you had just returned from an international conference, speaking about this. So there's so much excitement about artificial intelligence and what it can do. And there's so much concern about the damage that it might cause, whether on purpose or unintended. So, I'd love to get from you — the voice of authority on audio description — what your thoughts are on the role of artificial intelligence, now and going forward. Joel Snyder: Sure. And with regard to audio description, I think about it in two ways. First, the voicing of the audio description. Until relatively recently, we had professional voice talents trained in the voicing of audio description. And, you know, Kirk, many of those voice talents that do description are people who are totally blind. It's a great job for folks who have that particular perspective, obviously, on audio description — but they've studied it, too. And they know what makes good audio description. They have good vocal chops and such. So that's out there, and it's a kind of employment, obviously, in a community that— I always hear the number: 70% of people who are blind are unemployed. The advent of artificial intelligence with audio description — AI in the voicing of description — what that amounts to is speech synthesis, text-to-speech generation, which has its place. And AI has its place as well. I think artificial intelligence promises all kinds of marvelous techniques, marvelous advances in all manner of endeavor. But I think we need to think it through carefully. For instance, in the voicing of description, what the leaders in this area have been able to do is create voices that sound human. And that's great. And it's great for your answering machine. It's great for some recording. It's great for reading your email to you, or reading a text, perhaps. But I maintain — and actually the American Council of the Blind maintains — that for dramas, for feature films, comedies, nothing matches what a trained audio description voice talent can do. There are nuances, there are subtleties that I've not heard speech synthesis be able to handle. And in fact, I oftentimes quote a woman who's a blind voice talent. I've used her for— yeah, you probably know— Dr. Kirk Adams: I know she used to live here in Washington state back in the day. Joel Snyder: There you go, there you go. She's done a lot of voicing of description. In fact, she was the voice of the description for the series Seinfeld. Dr. Kirk Adams: Oh. Joel Snyder: And I love to talk about what she said once, when she was on a panel at a conference. And she was asked by a representative from a big media company — I'm not going to say which one, but they have heavily invested in AI audio description narration. And the representative said, 'Aren't you grateful that we're able to describe so much more content now, thanks to AI?' And she gave the perfect answer, Kirk. She said, 'Yeah, yeah, I'm grateful — in the same way that, when the power goes out, I'm grateful for a wind-up generator. I'm glad it's there, but I want normal electricity to be the standard, not wind-up generators.' Dr. Kirk Adams: All right. Joel Snyder: And, tangential to that — you have these big media companies. You know how much it costs, Kirk, to produce audio description for a feature film? About $5,000. And feature films these days cost $50 million. Dr. Kirk Adams: Right, right, right, right. Joel Snyder: $5,000 is less than it cost to cater the cast and crew for one day on set. Wow. So I don't quite buy the notion that, oh, we'll be able to do so much more. Dr. Kirk Adams: Right. Joel Snyder: Saving money. It gets into a quantity-versus-quality issue. And I will always go with quality first. Dr. Kirk Adams: Right. Joel Snyder: So, I've got another quick example, actually, Kirk — if you'll indulge me. And in fact, this is fun, because we were talking about Microsoft a bit ago, and their commitment to audio description — the highest quality of audio description. Well, Microsoft owns Xbox, so we do description for lots of Xbox game promotions and commercials and such. And I took the script that we developed — and I voiced it, actually — but I took just the script and I fed it into ElevenLabs, which is a big company that promotes speech synthesis. And I want you to listen to the script we wrote, as produced, as voiced by ElevenLabs. Here you go. [Demo audio — Call of Duty: Black Ops 6, AI-generated description via ElevenLabs]: The agency is compromised. We're being hunted from the inside. An operator sticks a grenade to an enemy and shoves them backwards. The operator in sunglasses sets off a bomb with a remote control. You don't trust me, but it might be better if you do. Hey, some you should see. What the hell are we getting into? An operator in a wheelchair shows an operator with a mustache. Video footage. Don't trust any. The mustache operator wipes fog off the window of a telephone booth, revealing the operator in sunglasses outside the. An operator in body armour aims a massive gun. Truth from a helicopter. A gunman fires turret gun at snowy military buildings. They broke into a CIA black site. Lies you out of your mind. Things got complicated. The operator in sunglasses rides a motorcycle out of a building and uses a police car as a ramp to soar over a police barricade. He looks over his shoulder as a car explodes behind him. From first person, an operator cuts a rope, tethering them to a helicopter. They fall out of a broken building and tumble through the air, falling toward an open helicopter door below them. May God continue to bless the United States of America. Call of Duty: Black Ops 6. Joel Snyder: So, Kirk, my question to you is: what the heck is going on? Dr. Kirk Adams: I did chuckle when I heard the totally flat affect. Yes. 'Enormous gun.' Joel Snyder: 'A grenade' — I don't know what that is. Yeah, it's just an obvious sort of error. And the flat affect — you're absolutely right, Kirk, you picked up on that. And so, let's just listen to this a minute — the same piece that we wrote description for, and I voiced. Okay, this is what we provided to Microsoft to use for Xbox. [Demo audio — Call of Duty: Black Ops 6, description written and voiced by Joel Snyder]: The agency is compromised. We're being hunted from the inside. An operator sticks a grenade to an enemy and shoves them backwards. The operator in sunglasses sets off a bomb with a remote control. It's just me. But it might be better if you do. Hey, Sam, you should see. What the hell are we getting into? An operator in a wheelchair shows an operator with a mustache. Video footage. Don't trust anyone. The mustached operator wipes off the window of a telephone booth, revealing the operator in sunglasses. Outside, an operator in body armor aims a massive gun from a helicopter. A gunman fires a turret gun and snowy military buildings. He broke into a CIA black site. Lives. Are you out of your mind? Things got complicated. The operator in sunglasses rides a motorcycle out of a building and uses a police car as a ramp to soar over a police barricade. He looks over his shoulder as a car explodes behind him. From first person, an operator cuts a rope, tethering them to a helicopter. They fall out of a broken building and tumble through the air, falling toward an open helicopter door below them. May God continue to bless the United States of America. Call of Duty: Black Ops 6. Dr. Kirk Adams: I prefer choice B. Joel Snyder: Well, thank you, thank you. But when audio description first started, with television, there was so much focus — as there should be, in the writing — on objectivity, not steering the listener one way or the other in the writing. But the early voice talents took that on to mean there should be a flat affect, as you call it. Audio description voice talents were referred to as golf announcers — sort of whispering. And I think we've grown past that, to the point where we're not in the movie, but we need to be of the movie. We're not actors, we're not trying to take focus, but we need to suggest the same tone. If it's happy, there's a light tone. If it's a sad film, there's a more somber tone. If it's an action film, there's an action in the voice. So that's— it's all part of how we've evolved, I think. Dr. Kirk Adams: Well, I think what you just played — those two segments, one AI-generated and one you voiced — makes the point. And I really appreciate that you gave us those examples. You know, Joel, our time flew by. How can people get in touch with you, and your Audio Description Associates, and the Audio Description Project? And how do people learn more and connect? Joel Snyder: Well, the easiest thing — my website is simply audiodescribe.com. But people can contact me very simply at jsnyder@audiodescribe.com. And I welcome inquiries and questions and such. The Audio Description Project — again, that website is adp.acb.org. And sometimes I respond to questions that come over from the website, but Diana and Fred are in charge of things now, and they do a great job responding to questions — and lots of information there, on the Audio Description Project website. Dr. Kirk Adams: It's great. And as for me, my website is drkirkadams.com. I have an email sign-up, I've got an inquiry form. I'm on LinkedIn every day — Kirk Adams, PhD. So reach out to Joel, learn more about audio description. If you have a project that involves creating visual imagery, and you want it to be accessible, enjoyable, usable by as many people as possible, you need to include audio description — and Joel can steer you in the right direction. So reach out to Joel, reach out to me. And thank you so much, Joel. The genesis of audio description — describing Major Barbara at the Arena Stage — that is something I never knew. So I have a new, valuable piece of blindness community history. I appreciate that very much. It's a long, long way to go, but at least we're moving in the right direction. Joel Snyder: Thank you so much. Dr. Kirk Adams: Thanks, Joel. And we'll see you — see you all next time on another episode of Podcasts by Dr. Kirk Adams. Podcast Commentator: Thank you for listening to Podcasts by Dr. Kirk Adams. We hope you enjoyed today's conversation. Don't forget to subscribe, share, or leave a review at https://www.drkirkadams.com. Together, we can amplify these voices and create positive change. Until next time, keep listening, keep learning, and keep making an impact.

2 de jul de 202639 min

Podcasts By Dr. Kirk Adams: Interview with David Grabias, Documentary Filmmaker, Writer / Director & Producer of Brailled It and Christopher Morgan, Braille Challenge Champion and Co-Director of Brailled It

🎙️ Podcasts By Dr. Kirk Adams: Interview with David Grabias, Documentary Filmmaker, Writer / Director & Producer of Brailled It, Founder of Artifact, LA and Christopher Morgan, Braille Challenge Champion and Co-Director of Brailled It, USA National-Team Goalball Athlete https://drkirkadams.com/podcasts-by-dr-kirk-adams-07-01-2026/ [https://drkirkadams.com/podcasts-by-dr-kirk-adams-07-01-2026/] In this energizing episode of Podcasts by Dr. Kirk Adams, Kirk, fresh from the Braille Challenge gala at Braille Institute in Los Angeles, talks with documentary filmmaker David Grabias [https://www.linkedin.com/in/david-grabias-a557621/] and 18-year-old Christopher Morgan about Brailled It [https://brailledit.com/], a film about the Braille Challenge [https://www.brailleinstitute.org/braille-challenge/] made largely by the blind kids who compete in it. Grabias recounts how, on a whim, he wandered into the Braille Institute near his LA office, discovered the Braille Challenge, and realized the participants themselves should be the filmmakers; his company, Artifact, handed small chest-mounted action cameras to about nine kids, and the footage from three of them, Christopher, Salome, and Isaiah, became the film. Christopher describes forgetting the camera was even on, the rarity and joy of being in a room full of blind peers, and how the young directors shaped what made the cut. The conversation ranges into Christopher's athletic journey, from an 11-year-old who told Kirk he'd be the first blind NBA player to a member of the USA men's national goalball prospect pool, and he gives a vivid primer on goalball, the only sport designed specifically for blind athletes. Grabias then lays out where Brailled It is headed: a Slamdance world premiere behind it, upcoming screenings at the NFB and ACB conventions and the Cincinnati Art Museum, a fall festival run and a multi-city accessible theatrical tour, and a still-secret collaboration with the Library of Congress and NLS. Details live at brailledit.com. They close on the film's motto, "Three, two, one, we brailled it." TRANSCRIPT: Podcast Commentator: Welcome to Podcasts by Dr. Kirk Adams, where we bring you powerful conversations with leading voices in disability rights, employment, and inclusion. Our guests share their expertise, experiences, and strategies to inspire action and create a more inclusive world. If you're passionate about social justice or want to make a difference, you're in the right place. Let's dive in with your host, Dr. Kirk Adams. Dr. Kirk Adams: Hello everybody, and welcome to another episode of Podcasts by Dr. Kirk Adams. I am that Dr. Kirk Adams, talking to you from my home office in Seattle, Washington. We just slid from a gloomy, cloudy June to a gloomy, cloudy July here in Seattle. But we're not complaining, because we know many of our friends on the other side of the country are experiencing some serious heat issues, so we wish everyone the best. So, today, super excited. There's a documentary film made by blind kids called Brailled It, and it is about the Braille Challenge. And I was just at the Braille Challenge gala dinner at Braille Institute on the USC campus, Los Angeles, Saturday night. So the Braille Challenge is fresh — the energy is coursing through my veins from the evening. And we have with us right now David Grabias, who's one of the producers of the documentary Brailled It. Say hey, David. David Grabias: Hi, Kirk. It's so nice to be here. Thanks for having me. Dr. Kirk Adams: And we hope to be joined by Christopher Morgan, who is a Braille Challenge winner. He won a first-place award on Saturday. He is on the men's national goalball team. I met him when I had the privilege of keynoting the Braille Challenge in 2019, so I haven't talked to Christopher for seven years, so I hope he joins us. I'd love to catch up. And there he is. Christopher, I was just talking about you. This is Kirk Adams. We've started the podcast. I just mentioned that you would be joining us. I mentioned that you are a Braille Challenge champion. I was actually in the room Saturday night when you received your award. You're a director of the documentary film Brailled It. Yes. You are a member of the men's national goalball team. And I met you and your mom seven years ago, in 2019, the last time I was at the Braille Challenge. So, looking forward to catching up with you. So, just a couple of minutes: the Braille Challenge is 26 years old now. It is a program of Braille Institute of America, which is based in Los Angeles. And it is now an international competition — the US, Canada, Ireland, Australia, and now Kenya. And it allows blind kids, K-12, to embrace Braille, sharpen and hone their Braille skills, stay excited about Braille. My retina is detached. When I was five years old, I went to a school for blind kids, the Oregon State School, for first, second, and third grade. Thank you, Mrs. Summers — may you rest in peace. You taught me how to read and write Braille. I have an 80-character Braille display in front of me, a refreshable Braille tablet on my lap, a Perkins brailler to my left, slate and stylus in my drawer. So I'm all about Braille, and the Braille Challenge is super cool. Kids get to go to regional competitions and be scored on their reading comprehension and spelling and their reading and writing. And then those who advance beyond the regionals all gather together on the University of Southern California campus in Los Angeles and have further competitions and skill-building. And it's all capped off with a gala banquet that my wife and daughter and I attended Saturday night. As I mentioned earlier, Christopher received an award, and I love the Braille Challenge. And other people love it too. And I guess six months ago, I learned about a documentary film that was created by some of the blind kids who were in the competition. And they did the filming and editing and created this thing with the guidance of some experienced filmmakers, like David, and Christopher, who's one of the more experienced Braille Challenge participants, helped to shape the documentary as a director. They showed a clip at the beginning of the banquet featuring an enthusiastic young blind hockey player from Canada named Isaiah. I was seated at the table with his family. There was another young lady we met right when we entered the banquet on Saturday, named Salome. And she told me, all I care about is the food and winning. And, of course, she did win again. So it was a joyful, joyous time. And I just want to turn the microphone over to you, David, and you, Chris, and let you talk about the project — how it began, how the journey has gone so far, where you're at with it. And I know you have some really impactful visions for the future. So I'm going to turn it over to you. I will reserve the right as host to pop in with the random questions as they occur to me. So, it's all yours. David Grabias: Awesome. Yeah. And if you want, Christopher, I'll start off and then I'll throw to you as we get to the actual filming process, so you can talk about that. But yeah — obviously the Braille Challenge is an incredible event, and I've had the privilege of going and just observing and being there, gosh, about five or six years ago, I think, as you mentioned. And I walked away just so impressed with the event, with the kids who were competing, with the energy, with the community that was formed there, where people were reconnected. It goes without saying that one of the more powerful aspects of it is the opportunity for all these kids to be in a room with each other, and to meet each other, and to socialize, to network, to be in a group of their peers — which, for many folks, and Christopher, I'm sure, is no exception, is a real rarity and a pleasure. So, I'm a filmmaker by trade, a documentary filmmaker. I'm based here in Los Angeles. And so I observed, and I was so taken aback, and so I reached out to the organizers and proposed that we make a film. And over the course of about a year or so, we— Dr. Kirk Adams: Can I ask — what took you initially to the Braille Challenge? David Grabias: It's a funny story. I used to have an office around the corner here in Los Angeles, on Melrose — literally around the corner from where the Braille Institute offices are. And I would walk to lunch nearby on Vermont, which, again, is where the Braille Institute offices are. And they have this incredible— their buildings are these 1970s cement, kind of— it almost looks like a temple, or, I don't know. And I was just really curious: what goes on inside this incredible building? I see the sign — and I'm sighted, just for full disclosure — and, Braille Institute, gosh, I don't know much about Braille. And so, on a whim, just out of curiosity, I wandered into the lobby one day and started chatting with a staff person at the desk. And they were just talking about what they do and some of the activities. And they said, 'Oh yeah, and we've got this thing called Braille Challenge, which is happening in a month. You should come check it out.' Dr. Kirk Adams: Okay. David Grabias: And again, kind of on a whim and out of curiosity — and, again, I'm sure the filmmaker part of me sensed that there might be some opportunity there. I reached out to the staff, and they were kind enough to get me a pass and get me invited. And so I spent two days just hanging out and watching and interacting and meeting the kids and the families, the TVIs and the organizers. And it was really — and I say this with all humility — it was a life-changing experience, to see the community come together, and to witness the energy, the enthusiasm, the excitement, the drama, you know? Dr. Kirk Adams: Yeah, yeah, yeah. David Grabias: All of it. Dr. Kirk Adams: Hurray for appreciative inquiry. So glad — glad you walked into the lobby. David Grabias: Exactly. It was just chance — really, fate. Having the office nearby, and having the curiosity to wander in. And, anyways, long story short: two years ago, it was the 25th anniversary of the Braille Challenge, and the folks at the Braille Institute reached out and they said, 'Hey, if you're going to make a film, it would be great if you could do it in honor of the 25th anniversary.' And so I said yes. And I work with a team at a company called Artifact, which is a documentary film production company. And we started thinking about how to make the film, and we actually went to a couple regional events — the qualifying-round events here in Southern California. And we brought a camera and we did a little bit of filming. And, again, we were meeting and observing, and it almost immediately became clear that the participants, the kids who were testing as part of the challenge — they needed to be the filmmakers. They needed to tell the story. Both from kind of an agency perspective, in terms of empowering them to tell their own stories, as well as just from the perspective that these kids — and Christopher will impress you shortly, as he begins talking — but they were such amazing, intelligent, creative individuals. And it was clear that they were going to make a film. If we were able to get them cameras and get them prepped, they would make a film that would be infinitely better than anything myself or some other sighted person could do. Dr. Kirk Adams: Hear, hear to that. Thank you. David Grabias: Yeah. And so we reached out to a couple different organizations. The Temple Institute on Disabilities actually has a media program. We also reached out to some folks — Cal State LA, which is a big TVI training program, also has a class in media about, and by, blind and low-vision folks. And they gave us some perspective and some thoughts, and we settled on obtaining these kind of small action cameras. They're about — and this is a dated reference — but they're about the size of a pack of cigarettes. Dr. Kirk Adams: Okay. David Grabias: And so, pretty small. And they're totally — you can drop them, they're waterproof, you can kick them around, whatever — they're totally durable. And you could either hold it, or there's like a chest mount with straps around your shoulders where you could just wear it and not think about it. And so, leading up to the competition, we reached out to about a dozen kids to see if they'd be interested in filming, if they were open to it, excited. And around nine of them said yes. And Christopher, who's joined us today, was one of those kids. And I'll pass it over to you, Christopher, in terms of just talking about your experience getting the camera, what you thought, and then, obviously, what it felt like to do the actual filming. Christopher Morgan: Thanks, David. And yeah, so, basically, I remember when David — and I think Brendan was the other one — reached out to me at first and was like, 'Hey, we're filming this film,' I was like, 'Absolutely, I would love to be part of it.' Because, like you mentioned, very rarely do we get to be in a room full of our own peers. Very rarely do we get to spend an extended amount of time with our own peers. And it's amazing, and it's so much fun. And that means so much to us — especially those of us who go to schools where we are, if not the only one, one of like maybe two or three, in a school of like 2,000, 3,000, 4,000 people. And it's just really awesome to have that experience. And just the connections that are made from those experiences — like, as you see in the film, I hang out with a lot of people that I've literally known for years, like me and Brooke, who's also in the film. We've known each other since 2017, and that friendship has just continued because of Braille Challenge, and because of just the time we get to spend together every year at Braille Challenge and everything. And then there's even friends that I've made more recently, like Emma, Grace, and Salome, even, you know— Dr. Kirk Adams: Yeah. Christopher Morgan: We just look forward to seeing each other every time, every year when we go. So that's one thing. And then, just about the filming process — getting there, it was kind of like, okay, I didn't really know what to expect. I didn't really know what was going to happen. But then they would give us the cameras and everything, and it was just really cool. I mean, you literally could wear them. I just wore it around my— on my chest, and literally forgot about it. Dr. Kirk Adams: Okay. So you just went about all the activities of the Braille Challenge, but you had a camera on. Everything. Christopher Morgan: Honestly, there were some times where I would literally forget I had the camera on, and it would just be— you just got really interesting content. And even just going back and actually watching the film, I'm like, 'Wait, I was recording when I did this, when I said this,' whatever. And it was just so normal, it was just so normalized, I feel like. And I think that's what made it so easy to capture so much of the challenge — just the normality of it, and just how low-profile the cameras were, and how low-pressure it was, and how— Dr. Kirk Adams: How many participants had cameras? David Grabias: We had— during the challenge, we gave nine participants cameras. Dr. Kirk Adams: Okay. David Grabias: And then, as we started to get the footage back from everybody — I mean, first of all, we had to edit this into a reasonable-length film. We didn't have a seven-hour epic. Dr. Kirk Adams: Right, right. I wanted to ask Christopher about that. Because before we hit record on the podcast, David mentioned— Christopher, I said, 'How should I introduce you?' He said, 'You're a director of the documentary, and you help make decisions about what to include and what to exclude.' And I'm sure that was challenging. But if you had nine people filming, you obviously had tons of content to choose from — the materials that were to be included, which elements and which pieces of filming would be included. How did that go? How did you do that? David Grabias: Yeah. Well — and, again, all the participants filmed over the course of two, two and a half days. And at the end of each day, or intermittently through the day, we would get the memory cards, the footage from them, and save it. And then, afterwards, we worked with a sighted editor here in Los Angeles, in our office. And he basically went through, and for each participant created kind of a string-out of all the scenes, all the moments they had recorded. Not surprisingly, some participants would forget to turn their camera on for a half a day, or they would decide not to for whatever reason. Some of the participants were already nervous about the competition, and so they walked into the actual testing rooms— they decided not to film, just so that it didn't distract them. Whereas others did, like Christopher, Salome, and Isaiah — the three main participants, the three directors in the film, did. So, yeah, we ended up focusing on three individuals who had done the most filming. They had filmed pretty comprehensively their experiences over the course of the weekend. And then they also just had the most diversity of different kinds of moments and content. And they also clearly had kind of curated moments, for lack of a better word. Like, there's a wonderful scene in the film where Christopher kind of interviews his mom — they're talking in a hallway, talking about the Braille Challenge and the community. Or Isaiah, he prompts conversations with Luisa, another competitor, where they're talking about how long they've been blind and the nature of their blindness and that kind of stuff. And so, yeah, it was pretty quickly, pretty clear, pretty apparent that there were three participants who really had great material, a great series of scenes. So we honed in on them. There is footage from other participants that's included — in some scenes, Christopher might be interacting with a group of other participants, challenge finalists, and some of them are wearing cameras, so we're able to include footage from both sides of the conversation. Dr. Kirk Adams: Cool. David Grabias: But for the most part — I would say 90% of the footage is from those three participants. Dr. Kirk Adams: Right? David Grabias: Yeah. And then we basically— oh, sorry, go ahead. Dr. Kirk Adams: Oh, you— David Grabias: You know, I was just going to say, we then took all the scenes that they had recorded, put them into a palatable kind of string-out, and then shared that with each of them and their families to get feedback — and to make sure, and Christopher can talk about it, there's some scenes where we wanted to make sure that everybody was on board with including them in the film. And you can, I'm sure, talk about that scene with your mom, Christopher. Christopher Morgan: There was a scene where I was walking down the hallway of the hotel. I get to my room, I swipe my card, I open the door. Suddenly I walk in the room, and, like, two seconds later, my mom's, like, clothes on. I was like, 'Oh, crap, I forgot my camera was on. My bad.' And I immediately just turn it off, and I'm like, 'Oh, shoot, like, that was not supposed to happen.' Dr. Kirk Adams: No, I remember meeting you and your mom. And— how old are you now, Christopher? Christopher Morgan: I'm sorry? Dr. Kirk Adams: How old are you now? Christopher Morgan: I'm 18. Dr. Kirk Adams: 18. So you must have been 11, because it was 2019. But I met you, and you're really, really into sports — basketball in particular. I remember talking to you. You were doing some stuff with the Atlanta Hawks, I think. And we talked about that. My dad was a high school basketball coach for 40 years, so you and I talked basketball for a few minutes. Christopher Morgan: And I actually remember that. Dr. Kirk Adams: And then, seven years later, they're giving announcements and they're saying, 'a member of the men's national goalball team.' So obviously your interest in competitive athletics has carried on. So I would love to hear a little bit about that. Tell the folks who don't know what goalball is, and how you came to be on the men's national team. Christopher Morgan: So, goalball, first of all, is the coolest sport you've never heard of. That is the best phrase I can use to describe it. Essentially, it is the only sport created specifically for people who are blind. It was created in response to World War II, to rehab veterans who were blinded during the war. And it is played, in its current state — there are two teams with three people on each team, that's on the court at one time. Each team can have more than three people, of course, because you have, like, reserve substitutions. But basically, the court — it is an indoor court, nine meters by 18 meters. And each team is tasked with defending a nine-meter-wide goal, which spans the whole width of the court. The three players— Dr. Kirk Adams: Just get it over the end line. Yeah? Christopher Morgan: To do what? Sorry? Dr. Kirk Adams: The goal is as wide as the end line. Christopher Morgan: Yes, yes — the goal is as wide as the court is. And it's 18 meters long. So, yeah, they have to defend the court. They have to work together to literally lie on the floor and block the goalball, which is a rubber ball. It weighs about three pounds, and it's about the size of a basketball, and it has bells inside. And it's rolled down the court — so it's rolled like a bowling ball down the court. And the other team, that's defending, has to block it and then pick it up and roll it back. After the block, you have 10 seconds to get it back down the court to the other team. So that's kind of the gist of it. Oh yeah — and then also, everyone wears blindfolds, because there's such a spectrum of blindness, where some people have a lot of vision and some people, like me, have absolutely zero vision. So, to make it fair, they have to have everyone wearing eye shades. But my journey with goalball began in 2017, technically. I was nine years old. I was at this sports camp, and I played goalball for the first time, and I was like, 'You know, it's fine, but it's just not my thing.' Fast forward to about two years later, I went to a couple practices with the youth team in Atlanta, and I actually started to see what was up with it. Well, then COVID happened. Dr. Kirk Adams: And— yeah. Christopher Morgan: I couldn't play for that long. So I really started playing in 2022, when COVID ended. I was invited to a couple practices then, and ever since then, I really took off with it. Because this was after I kind of had that big realization where, hey, I'm never going to be able to play basketball internationally, or competitively. I'm never going to be able to do that, because it's just not feasible. So goalball gave me the opportunity to do that. So, ever since 2022, I've been playing goalball really regularly. I've played with men, mostly, but I also do play with the youth, because I am still of age to play with youth. And I feel like a lot of my progress happened because, playing with people who are so much older, so much stronger than I am, I just progressed so much quicker. And it just forced me to be competitive. And so that caused me to really excel in youth goalball. We started out in 2022, our youth team winning no games at all the entire tournament. 2023, went back, and we won a bronze medal. The very next year, 2024, we went back again and won silver. And then, my last youth nationals, in 2025, we won gold. Dr. Kirk Adams: That's the way. Christopher Morgan: We actually beat the six-time defending national champion, who has not lost a game in, like, literally a long time. And it was just such a full-circle moment, for sure. And then, as far as getting involved with the USA program — last year I was invited to a USA team tryout, where there were 16 selected men's players from around the country. And we were all trying out for eight spots on the national team and four spots in what's called the prospect pool, which is still, again, part of that national team program. So, basically, out of those 16, you're having 12 that are getting selected to that program. So, basically, I made the four athletes that are part of the prospect pool. And I have been part of that ever since December of last year. And— Dr. Kirk Adams: Congratulations. Christopher Morgan: Thank you so much. And then we get to try out again in September to make the national team prospect pool again, so I'll have to try out again. But as part of the national team, I've been able to go to a couple training camps and learn even more, and, you know, doing more growth. I've also had the privilege of going to Berlin, Germany, to compete in an international tournament with the team back in March, at the Global Nations Cup. And then, later this year, I'm going to Astana, Kazakhstan, to compete in the youth world championships for goalball. This is with the youth national team — but I'll be competing with them in December. So that's a bit of a spiel on goalball. Dr. Kirk Adams: Yeah. Oh, that's awesome. So — I've been thinking as you've been talking. We'll get back to Brailled It, the documentary, in a minute. But when you were 11 years old, you very, very confidently told me and my wife that you were going to be the first blind NBA player. And you believed that in your heart. And your mom was supportive, and you were doing some stuff with the Atlanta Hawks — so you were involved with the NBA as an 11-year-old. But at some point you pivoted, right? You said, 'I want to be a top, world-class athlete, and I have an impairment. I can't see. The game of basketball was designed for people who can see. It might not be a great fit for me. But here's this other sport that is actually designed for people like myself who are blind, and I can be the best in the world at that.' So — exactly. I probably encapsulated several years of thought and positioning and framing, but that's the way I see that journey. And I just want to point that out to people. Christopher Morgan: Yeah. Dr. Kirk Adams: So, pretty much, dreaming big is a good thing. You might not get to where you started, where you thought you'd go, but you'll get somewhere great. Christopher Morgan: Yeah. So, pretty much, what I'll say about how that became a bit of a realization is — I would say that, really, as I got older and as I realized, 'Yo, I am nowhere near able to compete with these guys' — it really started happening when I was in, like, fifth grade and middle school, and it was like they'd have to make modifications to the game in order for me to play. Dr. Kirk Adams: Right. Christopher Morgan: And it just showed how much needed to change for me to be able to even have a fair chance — a close-to-fair chance. And, meanwhile, there's a sport, goalball, where there's no modifications made. And it's like, I— Dr. Kirk Adams: —designed for you. Christopher Morgan: Right, right. And I can do as well, as good as I can at it, with no modifications made. And that's just how it is. It's made specifically for me. Dr. Kirk Adams: Yeah. So, back to Brailled It. Did you ever think you would be a documentary filmmaker? Christopher Morgan: No, absolutely not. I thought it would be cool to make a movie or something. And I have been involved in making YouTube videos for a couple years now. Haven't really done it as often lately, but for a while I was making YouTube videos pretty regularly. And I thought those were pretty cool. I thought about possibly becoming a famous YouTuber, but I really never thought that it would really happen. I never thought that I'd be able to really make a movie or a documentary of any kind. Dr. Kirk Adams: Yeah, but now you have. So — David, the film. I'm not a film person, I don't know what the right language is, but I see terms like 'distribution' and 'release' and 'limited screenings.' I see those words, but where are you at in the arc of getting the film out, so people can experience it and learn about the Braille Challenge and enjoy the work of these amazing young blind people? David Grabias: Yeah. So, the film premiered — we had our world premiere at the Slamdance Film Festival, I guess about two months or so ago, here in Los Angeles, which was fantastic. It played to sold-out theaters at that film festival. And it will continue to play at film festivals around the country, starting this fall. But, really, for us, the goal has been to really get people talking about the idea of cinema — not just for the blind, not just accessibility in terms of audio description, but by the blind. What does it mean for a blind, low-vision person to make a film? And how does that change the way that we think about the medium, the way that we think about the art form? And I know, for myself, I am so excited and so inspired by that line of thinking. Won't be a surprise to either of you guys, but so often, when we talk about the project with other sighted people, they're like, 'What do you mean? One person made a movie, they can't see what they're filming — how can they make a film?' But that's kind of the point. And there is something really revolutionary and wonderful about giving folks who can't see cameras and having them record their experiences from their perspective. And what it does is, cinema is so often seen as a visual medium — it actually kind of revolutionizes it, transforms it from a visual-first to an audio-first medium, right? Dr. Kirk Adams: Because — yeah. David Grabias: Yeah. A blind filmmaker, obviously, they're responding to audio, what's happening around them, that way. And for sighted people, I think being forced to submit to this audio primacy versus a visual primacy — it can be challenging for some audiences, but I think it's a really powerful and, not to mix metaphors, but an eye-opening experience. I think it's really a consciousness-raising— it makes you conscious, right? You're like, 'Oh, well, this is the way that this person is understanding and interacting with the world. And how does that transform my experience of the world?' So there's something super powerful there that we're excited about. Dr. Kirk Adams: So, someone listening right now wants to see it. They need to find a film festival they go to? David Grabias: Yes. So, there's film festival dates. And then we have a couple sneak-preview screenings. We have one that's happening at the NFB conference coming up soon, which Christopher will be at in person, which is super exciting. We're also doing a screening at ACB, at their event, in partnership with — they have what's called the Audio Description Project. So, working with them, and we've got a screening happening there. We have one other kind of preview screening happening in Cincinnati in a couple of weeks, as part of Disability Pride Month, that's happening at Cincinnati Art Museum. But, really, our distribution, all that stuff, will start in the fall. There's a very special event that I can't yet speak about publicly — kind of a secret event — but it's in collaboration with the Library of Congress and the NLS. Dr. Kirk Adams: Well, when you can reveal the details, let me know, and I'll put it out on the blog so people listening here can catch up. So, is there a website, or a way people can see where the film festival dates are? David Grabias: Yep. So, there's a website, which is www.brailledit.com. And all screenings and information will be posted there. You can also, on that website, sign up for our mailing list, and you'll get an email blast every week or two from us. There's also, on that website, a place where you can submit a request to have a local community screening. So, later in the fall, we'll be working with community organizations literally all over the world to do screenings — be it with schools, advocacy groups, or other organizations that are serving the community. So all of that is on the website. You can also check us out on Instagram and Facebook. Dr. Kirk Adams: It's— everything's 'Nailed It,' right? David Grabias: 'Nailed It' — and Brailled It, the movie — okay, those are the tags. And then we'll be having a multi-city theatrical tour, so we'll be playing in movie theaters all over the country, again, starting this fall. And all of those screenings, again, are accessible. The film is fully audio described, and has captions that are in a font specifically designed for low-vision audiences. In addition, we have Braille transcripts, so you can follow along — or, for DeafBlind individuals, they can even participate. And then, in every city where we do a theatrical stop, we're hoping for those theater events to get as many people from the blind, low-vision community to come out — to demonstrate to the theater owners that there is an audience out there. And, geez, wouldn't it be nice if your audio description equipment worked? And wouldn't it be nice if you showed more films with audio description? And then— Dr. Kirk Adams: Well, when— let me know so I can help plan Seattle, so I can get lots of blind people in Seattle to the theater. David Grabias: I would love— Dr. Kirk Adams: —it. I go popcorn and Milk Duds at the movies. So that's what I'll be doing. David Grabias: I love it. No, that's great. And, yeah, Seattle for sure will be one of the stops. Dr. Kirk Adams: Good. Well, reach out — https://brailledit.com, Brailled It: The Movie — get in touch with David and the team. See what David, Christopher, Isaiah, Salome, the whole team has put together. It's quite amazing. Reach out to me — https://drkirkadams.com — if you want to sign up for my newsletter, or @KirkAdamsPhD on LinkedIn. And at the close of the gala Saturday night in Los Angeles, where Christopher won — again won — his first-place prize, we said, 'Three, two, one — we brailled it!' So these guys have brailled it. And please connect. Coming to a theater near you. We'll talk to you next time on Podcasts by Dr. Kirk Adams. Podcast Commentator: Thank you for listening to Podcasts by Dr. Kirk Adams. We hope you enjoyed today's conversation. Don't forget to subscribe, share, or leave a review at https://www.drkirkadams.com. Together, we can amplify these voices and create positive change. Until next time, keep listening, keep learning, and keep making an impact.

1 de jul de 202638 min

Podcasts By Dr. Kirk Adams: Interview with Daria Marmer, Founder, Cookie Voice Recipes

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