Ep. 045 | 6 Keys to Handling Resistance in a Church Revitalization - Part Two

Ep. 046 | Two Kinds of Struggling Churches

Most struggling churches assume they need the same kind of help. Terry Long says that assumption is one of the first things that has to go. Terry serves as the Church Health and Revitalization Strategist for the Baptist State Convention of North Carolina. He joined the state convention in April 2020, holds a doctorate of ministry in church revitalization from Southeastern Baptist Theological Seminary, and has spent two decades in vocational ministry. In this conversation with host Bart Blair, Terry walks through the framework NC Baptists uses to assess struggling churches, why revitalization and reconstruction require two completely different responses, and what pastors consistently get wrong when they come asking for help. WHAT YOU WILL HEAR IN THIS EPISODE • Why NC Baptists developed a ten-question church assessment, and what it is actually designed to do • The two categories struggling churches fall into: revitalization candidates and reconstruction candidates, and why treating them the same is a mistake • What NC Baptists looks for when assessing a church: missional engagement, discipleship health, leadership development, and baptism trends • Two real stories of NC Baptist churches that turned around, including a church of 30 senior adults that went from no pastor and no direction to 10 baptisms in a single Sunday • Why revitalization has to start with the pastor before it can start with the church • The statistic that stopped Terry cold early in his ministry: 92 percent of pastors have never been personally discipled • Why the come-and-see model of church no longer works, and what has to replace it • Why Terry believes the decline of cultural Christianity is not bad news for the church A KEY QUOTE FROM THIS EPISODE "I actually think this is a great thing. I know a Lord that said we're supposed to go and make disciples of all nations. I actually think this is the Lord refining his church to get back to do what we were supposed to do in the first place." -- Terry Long FOR THE PASTOR WHO IS LISTENING If your church has been plateaued or declining for years and you are not sure whether you need a coach, a partner church, or something else entirely, this episode will help you figure out which kind of help actually fits your situation. Terry breaks down the difference in plain terms and gives you a framework for thinking clearly about where your church is and what it needs next. And if you have been carrying the weight of a church that feels like it might be past the point of no return, the story of a 30-person church of senior adults who saw 10 baptisms six months into a turnaround process is worth hearing. RESOURCES MENTIONED • NC Baptists Church Revitalization: https://ncbaptist.org/ministries/church-revitalization • North American Mission Board Replant: https://www.namb.net/church-replanting/ • Reclaiming Glory by Mark Clifton • Embers to a Flame by Harry Reeder • Church revitalization resources by Tom Chaney, Orlando Baptists ABOUT REVITALIZE MY CHURCH Revitalize My Church is hosted by Bart Blair and Nathan Bryant. We create practical, biblically grounded content for pastors and church leaders who are navigating decline, plateau, and the hard work of leading a church toward health. New episodes release on the first and fifteenth of each month. Subscribe so you never miss an episode, and if this conversation was helpful, share it with a pastor who needs it. That is the best thing you can do to help more church leaders find this content. Visit us at revitalizemy.church

Ep. 045 | 6 Keys to Handling Resistance in a Church Revitalization - Part Two

Are you leading a church through revitalization and running into resistance at every turn? You are not alone. Resistance is one of the most common challenges pastors face when trying to move a church from where it is to where God wants it to be. The question is not whether you will face it. The question is whether you know how to handle it well. In Episode 45, Bart Blair and Nathan Bryant cover keys 3 through 6 of their six-key framework for handling resistance in church revitalization. WHAT YOU WILL LEARN IN THIS EPISODE Key 3: Communicate the Vision Often and Clearly Vision is your most powerful tool for overcoming resistance. People do not want to be managed. They want to be inspired. Cast a compelling, biblically grounded vision that answers four questions: Why are we doing this? Who are we? What are we going to do? And where are we going? Bart and Nathan talk about why vision leaks, why repetition is leadership and not redundancy, and how to use testimonies and stories of life change to reinforce the vision you are casting. Key 4: Honor the Past While Moving Forward Most resistance in a church revitalization is tied to something with real historical significance. People are being asked to let go of something they have valued for years, sometimes decades. Bart and Nathan share practical ways to celebrate what God has done in the church's history, allow people to grieve what is changing, and become the kind of pastor who knows the church's story well enough to carry it forward with honor. The goal is to be married to the mission without being married to the methodology. Key 5: Know When to Push and When to Pause Pace and timing matter as much as direction. Going too fast causes people to fall off. Going too slow kills momentum and loses your window. Bart and Nathan talk about how to identify low-hanging fruit for early wins, how to build a team that can read the room, why a well-timed pause can actually accelerate change, and why squandering momentum is just as dangerous as moving too quickly. Key 6: Know When Resistance Has Become Conflict Not all resistance is the same, and the way you respond to pushback needs to change when resistance turns into conflict. Bart and Nathan walk through the red flags that signal the shift, including when people stop questioning a decision and start questioning your right to make it, and when individuals begin organizing others around their opposition rather than bringing concerns directly to leadership. When that happens, you need a different set of tools. MENTIONED IN THIS EPISODE Episode 43: Keys 1 and 2 for Handling Resistance in Church Revitalization Episode 44: Grieving the Loss of the Church You Love, featuring author and pastor Larry Davis Episodes 39 and 41: Six Keys to Managing Conflict in a Church Revitalization The Revitalize My Church Podcast helps pastors of smaller, struggling churches navigate change and reorient to a new and healthy future. Hosted by Bart Blair, Director of Church Revitalization for Assist Church Expansion, and Nathan Bryant, Executive Director of Assist Church Expansion. Subscribe wherever you listen to podcasts. If this episode has been helpful, leave a rating and a review, and share it with a pastor who needs it. Visit us at RevitalizeMyChurch.com for show notes, resources, and more.

Ep. 044 | When the Church Must Die in Order to Live

Can a dying church really come back to life? Pastor Larry Davis says yes, but not the way most revitalization books tell you. In this episode of the Revitalize My Church Podcast, Bart Blair sits down with Larry Davis, author of "Grieving the Loss of the Church You Love" and Associational Missionary for the Eastern Baptist Association. Larry has personally led three church revitalizations and has assisted or consulted with more than 110 churches. His perspective on revitalization is unlike anything most pastors have read or heard. Most books on church revitalization assume every church should live. Larry challenges that assumption directly. Drawing from Scripture, the Kubler-Ross stages of grief, and more than two decades of hands-on revitalization work, Larry makes the case that a congregation cannot embrace something new until it has genuinely grieved what was. That single principle changes everything about how a pastor should approach a struggling church. WHAT YOU WILL LEARN IN THIS EPISODE Why the local church has a natural life cycle, and what Scripture says about it How the five stages of grief (denial, bargaining, anger, depression, and acceptance) show up in a declining congregation Why trying to lead change before a church is ready almost always backfires How Larry navigated fierce resistance at Grace Seaford Church, including angry members at Wednesday night suppers What the "meeting before the meeting" is and why it is never optional How cascading communication works and why skipping the middle ring is one of the costliest mistakes in revitalization What resurrection actually looks like for a dying church, and why it is different for every congregation How to use a simple EKG framework to honestly assess the health of your church Why reaching out for help early dramatically increases a church's chances of genuine renewal THE FIVE STAGES OF GRIEF IN A LOCAL CHURCH Denial: The church refuses to admit there is a problem. Bargaining: The church tries to fix itself without actually changing. New sign letters. A younger pastor. A new program. Anger: Blame gets directed at the pastor, the leadership, or the community around the church. Depression: The congregation begins to realize the decline is real. Larry explains the important difference between secondary depression and preparatory depression. Acceptance: The congregation finally becomes open to whatever God wants to do next. This is the threshold of resurrection. ABOUT LARRY DAVIS Larry Davis spent nine years as an aerospace engineer before answering the call to full-time ministry in 2003. Over 26 years of vocational ministry, he has personally led three church revitalizations, co-planted Grace Mardela Church, and has assisted or consulted with more than 110 churches. He currently serves as Senior Pastor of Grace Seaford Church in Seaford, Delaware, and as Associational Missionary for the Eastern Baptist Association. His book "Grieving the Loss of the Church You Love" is available on Amazon and Barnes and Noble. Website: https://www.pastorlarrydavis.com Speaking and consulting inquiries: pastor@graceseaford.org BOOKS AND RESOURCES MENTIONED Grieving the Loss of the Church You Love by Larry Davis: https://www.amazon.com/Grieving-Loss-Church-You-Love/dp/1597557811 Autopsy of a Deceased Church by Thom Rainer Transforming the Rural Church in America by Shannon O'Dell Our Iceberg Is Melting by John Kotter On Death and Dying by Elizabeth Kubler-Ross ABOUT REVITALIZE MY CHURCH The Revitalize My Church Podcast is hosted by Bart Blair, Director of Church Revitalization at Assist Church Expansion. New episodes release on the 1st and 15th of every month. The podcast exists to help pastors of smaller and struggling churches navigate revitalization with practical, biblically grounded guidance. Subscribe so you never miss an episode. Website: https://revitalizemy.church Full show notes for this episode:

Ep. 043 | 6 Keys to Handling Resistance in a Church Revitalization - Part One

Resistance is one of the most common and discouraging challenges a pastor faces when leading a church through revitalization. You cast the vision, you lay out the plan, and then someone pushes back. Or a group pushes back. And suddenly it feels like the people you are trying to help are the very ones standing in your way. In this episode of the Revitalize My Church Podcast, Bart Blair and Nathan Bryant dig into what resistance actually is, why it is completely normal, and how to respond to it in a way that keeps the temperature in your church manageable. This is Part 1 of a two-part series on handling resistance in church revitalization, covering the first two of six practical keys. If you missed the previous two episodes on managing conflict in a church revitalization, go back and listen to Episodes 39 and 41 first. Resistance and conflict are related, but they are not the same thing, and understanding the difference will change how you respond to both. RESISTANCE IS NOT A SIGN YOU ARE DOING SOMETHING WRONG If you are leading your church through meaningful change and not experiencing any resistance, you are probably not changing anything that really matters. Resistance is the natural result of inertia. People who have worshiped, served, and sacrificed in a church for 20, 30, or 40 years have deep roots. Even people who say they want change often do not fully realize what they are agreeing to until the process is underway. Resistance in a revitalizing church often comes from a few different places. Some people fear loss. They are not necessarily against the change itself, they are grieving what they might have to give up. Others are carrying the wounds of past attempts that did not work out. They tried things before, it did not go the way they hoped, and now their guard is up because they do not want to feel that sense of failure again. Others simply do not trust the leader enough yet to take a big step in a new direction. And some feel, even unintentionally, that the push for change is a criticism of everything they have built and sacrificed for over the years. All of that is worth understanding before you decide how to respond. WHAT MOSES CAN TEACH PASTORS ABOUT LEADING THROUGH RESISTANCE Moses led a people who had cried out to God for deliverance for generations, received it through miraculous signs and wonders, crossed the Red Sea, and then spent most of the journey through the wilderness complaining. They wanted the promised land immediately. What they got was a long, hard desert walk. Sound familiar? A few things stand out from Moses as a model for pastors navigating resistance. The people said yes to the journey without fully understanding what they were signing up for. Moses did not always keep his cool, but he remained committed to the mission. He interceded for the people even when they deserved judgment, because they were not his adversaries, they were his people. And Moses did not have the full plan from day one. God revealed it over time, and Moses had to adjust along the way. Revitalization is not that different. KEY 1 - DO NOT PERSONALIZE IT, CONTEXTUALIZE IT The first key to navigating resistance is refusing to take it personally. When a pastor becomes anxious or defensive in response to pushback, that anxiety spreads through the congregation and raises the temperature. Your defensiveness will escalate the situation faster than almost anything else. Proverbs 19:11 says that wisdom yields patience and that it is to one's glory to overlook an offense. That is not weakness. That is strategic leadership. Most resistance is not really about you. It is about the concept of change, the fear of loss, or the memories tied to something you are asking people to let go of. At the same time, pastors need to guard against making it feel personal to the people resisting. When change is communicated without empathy, without honoring what came before, and without acknowledging the years of sacrifice people have invested, it can land as an insult even when that was never the intent. Effective revitalization leaders learn to hold both of those things at the same time. KEY 2 - LISTEN BEFORE YOU LEAD James 1 says to be quick to hear, slow to speak, and slow to anger. That is not just good advice for conflict. It is a practical strategy for managing resistance in a change process. Listening to someone is not the same as agreeing with them. But creating space for people to voice concerns, ask questions, and process what is being proposed will dramatically reduce the heat around resistance. Bart and Nathan walk through a layered communication approach: bring change concepts to top-level leaders first, not as finalized decisions but as ideas to interact with. Give people time to process. Offer one-on-one conversations so individuals are not hearing major changes for the first time in a group setting. And get good at asking better questions, because the root of someone's resistance is often something very different from what it looks like on the surface. One story from the episode illustrates this perfectly. A pastor faced pushback from a longtime member when the church decided to replace the pews with chairs. When the pastor took the time to really listen, he discovered the real concern had nothing to do with seating. Many of the pews had been purchased and dedicated in the names of people the member loved, and he was afraid they would end up in the trash. The pastor found a church willing to buy them, the pews went to a congregation where they would still be used, and the member felt heard and cared for. That outcome was only possible because the pastor chose to listen before he pushed forward. WHAT'S COMING IN PART 2 Bart and Nathan will be back with four more practical keys for handling resistance in church revitalization. Make sure you are subscribed so you do not miss the next episode. New episodes of the Revitalize My Church Podcast release on the 1st and 15th of every month. Subscribe on your favorite podcast app or hit Subscribe and ring the bell here on YouTube to get notified when new episodes go live. Visit us at RevitalizeMyChurch.com for show notes, resources, and more.

Ep. 042 | Stop Chasing Programs. Start Reaching People

EPISODE 42: SHOW NOTES TLDR: KEY TAKEAWAYS 1. The Oikos Principle works everywhere: 95% of people come to faith through relationships with the 8-15 people in their "front row" - their coworkers, neighbors, close friends, and family members who watch how they live. 2. Church obesity kills mission focus: Most churches are programmatically obese, offering so many "good things" that the Great Commission gets crowded out. The average church attender has only 5 hours per week to give. 3. Outreach never happens naturally: Without intentionality, nurture always wins over evangelism. Churches must deliberately elevate the Great Commission first and often, or it will never take root. 4. Start with a simple strategy: Make a list of your 8-15 people, pray daily, invest in relationships intentionally, then invite them into environments where faith conversations happen naturally. EPISODE SUMMARY Are you struggling to keep your church focused on reaching lost people? Do you feel like your congregation is more interested in adding new ministries than making new disciples? You're not alone. In this episode of Revitalize My Church, Bart sits down with Tom Mercer, author of 8 to 15: The World Is Smaller Than You Think [https://www.amazon.com/World-Smaller-Than-You-Think/dp/0984036407] and pastor of High Desert Church for 38 years, to discuss why most churches have lost focus on the only thing Jesus commanded us to do between His advents - make disciples. WHY SMALL CHURCHES STRUGGLE WITH MISSION FOCUS Tom shares candidly about the challenge every pastor faces: "It's not that local churches don't do good things, but we do so many good things that the only great thing Jesus asked of us doesn't have any room to flourish." This insight is particularly crucial for small church pastors who are constantly pressured to add more programs, more ministries, and more activities to compete with larger churches in their community. WHAT IS THE OIKOS PRINCIPLE AND HOW DOES IT WORK IN CHURCH REVITALIZATION? The word "oikos" is a Greek term meaning "house" or "household" that appears throughout the New Testament. But Tom explains it means more than just a physical dwelling - it describes your relational world. The Oikos principle teaches that every person has 8-15 people in the "front row seats" of their life - people who: * Watch how you live * Listen to what you say * Include coworkers, neighbors, close friends, classmates, and family members * Are supernaturally and strategically placed in your life by God The data is undeniable: Tom has asked hundreds of thousands of Christians across five continents, multiple denominations, and diverse cultures one question: "Was the primary reason you gave your heart to Christ because of someone in your oikos?" The answer? Virtually every hand in the room goes up, every time. HOW TO IMPLEMENT THE 8 TO 15 STRATEGY IN YOUR CHURCH Tom shares the practical five-step strategy High Desert Church used to keep thousands of people focused on the Great Commission: STEP 1: MAKE A LIST Help your congregation identify by name the 8-15 people in their front row. "It's only a dream until you write it down, then it becomes a goal," Tom explains, quoting NFL Hall of Famer Emmett Smith. STEP 2: PRAY DAILY Encourage consistent prayer for these specific people by name. Most believers never take this step. STEP 3: INVEST IN RELATIONSHIPS Be intentional about spending time with and serving these people. This is where most invitation strategies fail - people won't invite those they haven't invested in. STEP 4: EXTEND INVITATIONS Create environments where faith conversations can happen naturally - church services, dinner at home, coffee shops, or small group gatherings. STEP 5: MINIMIZE DISTRACTIONS This is the controversial part: remove programs and activities that don't directly support your congregation's mission to their 8-15. WHY CHURCH PROGRAMS ARE KILLING YOUR EVANGELISM EFFORTS One of the most convicting moments in this conversation comes when Tom shares High Desert Church's "five-hour strategy." After surveying their congregation, they discovered people could only give five hours per week to church activities. So they asked: "What do we do with only five hours?" Their answer: * 90 minutes: A meaningful weekend worship service * 2 hours: Small groups for conversation and community * 90 minutes: Opportunities to express spiritual gifts at church or in the community That's it. Everything else was eliminated or offered only as short-term seminars. The result? A church of 120 grew to thousands across four campuses over 38 years, with a laser focus on equipping every member to reach their oikos. HOW TO STOP NURTURE FROM WINNING OVER OUTREACH IN YOUR CHURCH Tom references his friend Dave Browning's insight: "Without intentionality, nurture always wins." This explains why 76% of evangelical church-attending Christians can't even articulate what the Great Commission is (according to 2024 Barna research). Churches teach programs, not mission. The solution? Elevate outreach first and foremost without compromising discipleship. Tom shares a controversial practice: "When someone comes to faith, most pastors say, 'You need to get in a Bible study.' My advice would be to never, ever, ever do that." Instead, paint the target first - help new believers understand their mission is to reach their 8-15 people. Then discipleship has context and purpose. WHY THE GREAT COMMISSION SHOULD BE CALLED THE GREAT COMMANDMENT Bart makes a crucial point in this conversation: "We've labeled it the Great Commission, and commission sounds too much like suggestion. It should be another Great Commandment." Jesus didn't say, "Here's a great idea if you have time." He said, "All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. Therefore GO" (Matthew 28:18-19). This is a directive from the Commander-in-Chief, not a suggestion from a consultant. PRACTICAL FIRST STEPS FOR PASTORS WHO WANT TO IMPLEMENT OIKOS PRINCIPLES If you're ready to refocus your church on the Great Commission using the oikos principle, Tom recommends: 1. Gather your decision-makers - staff team and key volunteers 2. Read together - Either 8 to 15 or Tom's follow-up book Not My Church (written specifically for pastors) 3. Have honest conversations - People in ministry are smarter than they think; let them wrestle with how to apply this in your specific context 4. Reach out for help - Tom offers free Zoom consultations with pastors at OikosMovement.com WHY THIS STRATEGY WORKS FOR SMALL CHURCHES WITH LIMITED RESOURCES This approach is perfect for small church revitalization because: * It doesn't require a big budget - You're empowering relationships, not funding programs * It doesn't require more staff - Every member becomes a missionary to their oikos * It actually simplifies ministry - You can cut programs that distract from the mission * It's scalable - Whether you have 20 people or 2,000, everyone has 8-15 people in their front row As Tom reminds us: "The average church is led by averagely gifted leaders." But the oikos principle doesn't require exceptional gifts - just faithfulness to focus on what Jesus actually asked us to do. HOW TO MEASURE KINGDOM GROWTH VS. TRANSFER GROWTH One of the most refreshing aspects of Tom's perspective is his view on measuring growth: "It's above my pay grade to cause growth, so it's kind of silly for me to take credit for it by measuring it." Instead, Tom focuses on faithfulness to the mission, not numerical outcomes. Bart reinforces this with the concept of lead measures vs. lag measures: * Lead measures - Things you can control (teaching the oikos principle, equipping people for relationships, removing program distractions) * Lag measures - Things you can't control (attendance numbers, baptisms, conversions) Focus on leading your people to engage their oikos faithfully. Let God handle the growth. WHAT TO DO WHEN PEOPLE ASK FOR MORE PROGRAMS AND MINISTRIES Every small church pastor faces this pressure: "We need a women's ministry. We need more youth programs. We need this and that ministry." Tom's response? Ask "Why?" "If this is something Jesus asked of us, then of course we're obligated to pursue it. But there are so many things that are so distracting." Before adding any program, ask: Does this help our people reach their 8-15, or does it distract from that mission? THE SOCIOLOGICAL PROBLEM, NOT JUST THEOLOGICAL Bart shares a crucial insight: Most Americans believe people who resist the gospel have theological problems. In reality, their resistance is mostly sociological. People resist God, scripture, and the gospel primarily because their entire oikos - the 8-15 people in their front row - also resist these things. The solution? Change their sociological circle. Surround them with people who love Jesus, follow scripture, and live out the gospel. Their eyes open to new possibilities when their community changes. This is why the oikos principle is so powerful - you're not just sharing information, you're inviting people into a new community. RESOURCES MENTIONED IN THIS EPISODE * Book: 8 to 15: The World Is Smaller Than You Think [https://www.amazon.com/World-Smaller-Than-You-Think/dp/0984036407] by Tom Mercer * Book: Not My Church [https://www.amazon.com/Not-My-Church-Tom-Mercer/dp/0984036458] by Tom Mercer (specifically for pastors) * Website: OikosMovement.com [https://www.oikosmovement.com/] - Free resources and consultation opportunities * Contact: Tom@OikosMovement.com [Tom@OikosMovement.com] CONNECT WITH TOM MERCER Tom Mercer served as lead pastor of High Desert Church in Southern California for 38 years, growing the church from 120 attenders to thousands across four campuses. He now leads The Oikos Movement, a nonprofit dedicated to equipping every believer in every nation to reach their oikos with the gospel. Tom regularly consults with pastors worldwide via Zoom and speaks at churches and conferences about the oikos principle. QUESTIONS FOR REFLECTION AND DISCUSSION 1. Can you name the 8-15 people in your oikos right now? Have you written their names down? 2. What programs or activities in your church might be "good things" that are crowding out the "great thing" Jesus commanded? 3. If your congregation only has five hours per week to give, what would you prioritize? 4. What percentage of your church members could accurately explain the Great Commission? 5. Does your church naturally gravitate toward nurture or outreach? What would it take to be more intentional about evangelism? SHARE THIS EPISODE If this conversation encouraged you or challenged your thinking about your church's future, share it with: * Your church leadership team or board * Your pastor or denomination leader * Church planter networks in your area * Other pastors navigating similar challenges SUBSCRIBE & STAY UPDATED New episodes release on the 1st and 15th of every month. Subscribe wherever you listen to podcasts or on YouTube to get notified when new conversations about church leadership, revitalization, and growth drop in your feed.