Bakery Agency's CEO: What clients don’t understand about indies – Micky Ogando

Ogilvy's Former CEO EMEA: Pivoting a life and an industry – Patou Nuytemans

Today's guest is Patou Nuytemans, former CEO of Ogilvy EMEA, whose remarkable 30-year journey from intern to regional chief has given her a rare perspective on leadership, reinvention and the future of agencies. Patou reflects candidly on the emotional reality of leaving the business that shaped her, explaining how heartbreak became gratitude and ultimately inspired a new chapter of reflection and writing. She believes that agencies don't have a creativity problem, they have a value problem. Patou describes long-standing commercial weaknesses that make it essential for agencies to connect creativity with business impact, demonstrate value over capability, and rethink how they price their work. Thoughtful, optimistic and deeply human, this is a compelling conversation about identity, leadership and why the agency industry's best days can still lie ahead. HIGHLIGHTS: [02:56] The pivot begins [04:40] Sharing gratitude [09:11] Finding purpose [15:11] Learning through uncertainty [19:07] How AI exposes truth [25:55] Demonstrating real value [29:39] Every conversation counts [34:11] From services to solutions [38:31] Back to marketing basics [42:19] Owning the future MORE ABOUT PATOU: LinkedIn: linkedin.com/in/patounuytemans [https://www.linkedin.com/in/patounuytemans/] Substack: patoupivots.substack.com [https://patoupivots.substack.com/] MENTIONED IN THE EPISODE: VoxComm Research: Redesigning the agency value model [https://voxcomm.org/wp-content/uploads/2026/02/Executive-Summary-Redesigning-the-Agency-Value-Model.pdf] Theo of Golden: amazon.com/Theo-Golden-Novel-Allen-Levi [https://www.amazon.com/Theo-Golden-Novel-Allen-Levi/dp/1668236567] HOST SOCIALS: LinkedIn: linkedin.com/in/robinbonn [https://linkedin.com/in/robinbonn] Twitter: twitter.com/robonn [https://twitter.com/robonn] MORE ABOUT CO:DEFINERY: Website: codefinery.com [https://codefinery.com] Book: Market of One [https://marketofone.agency] Mentioned in this episode: Get Co:definery's diagnostic questionnaire Is your agency  really as differentiated as you think? And have you fully embraced the commercial disruption that AI is bringing? To find out, take five minutes to complete Co:definery's diagnostic questionnaire. It's quick, free, and thought provoking, and you get a tailored report with practical guidance for sharpening your competitive edge. Visit codefinery.com/dq [https://the-immortal-life-of-ag.captivate.fm/dq]

Don't Forget to Look's Founder: Crack the Procurement Code – Stuart Dunk

Today’s guest is Stuart Dunk, a former marketing procurement leader at the likes of Nike, Reckitt and Danone. He now runs his own consultancy, Don't Forget to Look. Procurement remains one of the most misunderstood client-side functions. Stuart offers a rare insider’s perspective on what agencies get wrong and how they can engage more effectively with the people influencing buying decisions. He explains why not all procurement professionals think alike, how agencies can diagnose procurement culture before entering a pitch, and when differentiation matters most. The conversation also explores specialist positioning, value-based selling and why agencies must build relationships earlier. Insightful, generous and commercially astute, Stuart challenges common assumptions and offers a smarter approach to working with procurement professionals. HIGHLIGHTS: [02:30] 20 years of buying marketing [05:19] Beyond procurement stereotypes [09:09] Reading buying signals [12:53] Where agencies have power [19:03] The role of differentiation [23:19] Winning every scorecard [31:04] Staying curious [32:43] Building pipeline differently [40:24] Asking permission MORE ABOUT STUART: LinkedIn: linkedin.com/in/stuart-dunk-dftl [https://www.linkedin.com/in/stuart-dunk-dftl/] Website: dontforgettolook.com [https://www.dontforgettolook.com/] HOST SOCIALS: LinkedIn: linkedin.com/in/robinbonn [https://linkedin.com/in/robinbonn] Twitter: twitter.com/robonn [https://twitter.com/robonn] MORE ABOUT CO:DEFINERY: Website: codefinery.com [https://codefinery.com] Book: Market of One [https://marketofone.agency] Mentioned in this episode: Get Co:definery's diagnostic questionnaire Is your agency  really as differentiated as you think? And have you fully embraced the commercial disruption that AI is bringing? To find out, take five minutes to complete Co:definery's diagnostic questionnaire. It's quick, free, and thought provoking, and you get a tailored report with practical guidance for sharpening your competitive edge. Visit codefinery.com/dq [https://the-immortal-life-of-ag.captivate.fm/dq]

Boathouse's CEO: Going back to basics – John Connors

Today’s guest is John Connors, CEO of the Boston-based, full-service agency, Boathouse. John argues that agencies have become too transactional, weakening client relationships as well as their impact on business outcomes. So he’s built a client-centric culture that deeply understands the drivers of commercial performance. The conversation explores the disconnect between client-side CEOs and CMOs, and how to justify brand investment alongside digital media. Thoughtful, practical and optimistic, this is a conversation about building trust, commercial credibility and brand value. HIGHLIGHTS: [03:54] Studying the CEO [08:13] Execution over consultancy [09:45] The CEO disconnect [13:44] Halfway to transformation [19:40] Map the revenue [25:40] Partner vs employee mindset [30:13] Relationships over transactions [36:07] Anchored to the P&L [39:23] The numbers behind AI MORE ABOUT JOHN: LinkedIn: linkedin.com/in/john-connors [https://www.linkedin.com/in/john-connors-5621b5/] Website: boathouseinc.com [https://www.boathouseinc.com/] MENTIONED IN THE EPISODE: Boathouse CEO research [https://www.boathouseinc.com/insights/cmos-are-winning-trust-but-still-falling-short-7h8st-lg57a-brr3l-lfywl] Richard Huntington in Campaign: It's time to stop talking about “brand” and “creativity” [https://www.campaignlive.co.uk/article/its-time-stop-talking-%E2%80%9Cbrand%E2%80%9D-%E2%80%9Ccreativity%E2%80%9D/1956503] (paywalled) HOST SOCIALS: LinkedIn: linkedin.com/in/robinbonn [https://linkedin.com/in/robinbonn] Twitter: twitter.com/robonn [https://twitter.com/robonn] MORE ABOUT CO:DEFINERY: Website: codefinery.com [https://codefinery.com] Book: Market of One [https://marketofone.agency] Mentioned in this episode: Get Co:definery's diagnostic questionnaire Is your agency  really as differentiated as you think? And have you fully embraced the commercial disruption that AI is bringing? To find out, take five minutes to complete Co:definery's diagnostic questionnaire. It's quick, free, and thought provoking, and you get a tailored report with practical guidance for sharpening your competitive edge. Visit codefinery.com/dq [https://the-immortal-life-of-ag.captivate.fm/dq]

Main Character's Co-Founders: Making the impossible happen – Courtney Worthman & Stacey Gersten

Today’s guests are Courtney Worthman and Stacey Gersten, Co-Founders of Main Character, the celebrity partnership specialists helping brands stop buying celebrities and start buying into culture. Drawing on two decades of experience across entertainment, advertising and PR, Courtney and Stacey explain why moving ‘at the speed of culture’ has become a practical necessity and how building celebrity partnerships has evolved into a quantitative science. We explore the balance between data and instinct, the realities of managing dynamic stakeholder relationships, and how brands discern the right cultural moments. This is a modern, practical conversation about culture, influence and the changing role of celebrity in brand communications. HIGHLIGHTS: [03:26] Main Character’s origin story [07:15] Being audience first [10:11] Thinking in calendars [13:42] Making ideas executable [16:51] Pulling the right levers [19:03] The science behind celebrity [27:05] Brands as entertainment studios [30:09] An easy way to yes [32:10] Brand to brand partnerships MORE ABOUT COURTNEY & STACEY: LinkedIn (Courtney): linkedin.com/in/courtney-worthman [https://www.linkedin.com/in/courtney-worthman-081100a/] LinkedIn (Stacey): linkedin.com/in/stacey-gersten [https://www.linkedin.com/in/stacey-gersten-a2449a8/] Website: main-character.com [https://www.main-character.com/] HOST SOCIALS: LinkedIn: linkedin.com/in/robinbonn [https://linkedin.com/in/robinbonn] Twitter: twitter.com/robonn [https://twitter.com/robonn] MORE ABOUT CO:DEFINERY: Website: codefinery.com [https://codefinery.com] Book: Market of One [https://marketofone.agency] Mentioned in this episode: Get Co:definery's diagnostic questionnaire Is your agency  really as differentiated as you think? And have you fully embraced the commercial disruption that AI is bringing? To find out, take five minutes to complete Co:definery's diagnostic questionnaire. It's quick, free, and thought provoking, and you get a tailored report with practical guidance for sharpening your competitive edge. Visit codefinery.com/dq [https://the-immortal-life-of-ag.captivate.fm/dq]

Bakery Agency's CEO: What clients don’t understand about indies – Micky Ogando

Today’s guest is Micky Ogando, CEO and Chief Creative Officer of the 80-person, Austin-based independent creative agency, Bakery. Unpacking the trend of big brands choosing indies, Micky explains why many clients misunderstand what they’re actually buying when they swap HoldCo. polish for opinionated misfits, and how this friction can be channeled into better work. The conversation also covers how Bakery vets potential clients and when agency owners should evolve beyond improvising in their early days and start really focusing on what they're really good at. HIGHLIGHTS: [02:35] Starting without a blueprint [05:44] Misconceptions about indies [07:54] Independent versus small [11:41] Scale with minimal friction [16:24] Vetting process on both sides [21:08] Limits of improvisation [22:26] The He-Man strategy [23:51] Avoiding the Abilene paradox [25:51] The Michelin star mindset [29:43] Taste, criteria, standards and craft MORE ABOUT MICKY: LinkedIn: linkedin.com/in/mickyogando [https://www.linkedin.com/in/mickyogando/] Website: bakery.agency [https://www.bakery.agency/] MENTIONED IN THE EPISODE: A Hitchhiker's Guide to the Agency Galaxy https://thecultish.substack.com/p/a-hitchhikers-guide-to-the-agency [https://thecultish.substack.com/p/a-hitchhikers-guide-to-the-agency] HOST SOCIALS: LinkedIn: linkedin.com/in/robinbonn [https://linkedin.com/in/robinbonn] Twitter: twitter.com/robonn [https://twitter.com/robonn] MORE ABOUT CO:DEFINERY: Website: codefinery.com [https://codefinery.com] Book: Market of One [https://marketofone.agency] Mentioned in this episode: Get Co:definery's diagnostic questionnaire Is your agency  really as differentiated as you think? And have you fully embraced the commercial disruption that AI is bringing? To find out, take five minutes to complete Co:definery's diagnostic questionnaire. It's quick, free, and thought provoking, and you get a tailored report with practical guidance for sharpening your competitive edge. Visit codefinery.com/dq [https://the-immortal-life-of-ag.captivate.fm/dq]