Episode 11: Attending the Synod as a Family

Episode 11: Attending the Synod as a Family

Christina Gebel: [00:00:00] Welcome to the Moderate Catholic, where we discuss topics that deepen faith and inspire action. I am your host, Christina Gebel, and this is Episode 11: Journeying to the Synod as a family. So, I am really excited for this episode today. I have a good friend here, Casey Stanton, who wears many incredible hats, but I will let her talk about all the incredible things that she does, and she was so kind to come on the podcast today to talk about not only just the work she does, but how it relates specifically to her family life. So, with that, Casey, welcome. Would you like to introduce yourself? Casey Stanton: Yeah. Thanks so much for having me. I’m excited. I’m Casey Stanton, Co-director and Co-founder of Discerning Deacons, which is an [00:01:00] organization seeking to serve the discernment in the Church about women in the diaconate. So, we’re trying to grow the imagination and serve this question, which has been alive and studied in the church for the last 50 plus years. Christina Gebel: Amazing, and we could have a whole episode series archive of audio, just discussing the tremendous efforts that are going on with Discerning Deacons right now, which if you haven’t gotten in touch with them, you absolutely should. But we’re actually here today to talk about that work in light of a decision that you made, and it directly relates to the Synods that were happening globally. And so maybe you could just start us off, first of all, what is a Synod? And then in true Church language awesomeness, what is a Synod on Synodality? [00:02:00] And tell me how you came to be involved. Casey Stanton: Great question. So, this was very much at the heart of Pope Francis’ vision for how the Church was being called to live its mission in the world today, to try to invite the Holy Spirit to be heard through every corner of Church life and out in the world, and to ask the question afresh: What does it mean for the church to journey with you in your life wherever you are, whoever you are, whether you’re in the Church or not, if you’re outside of it? So, it was a process and a path to try to open up a space for renewal in the Spirit. The first Synod is in the Acts of the Apostles. It’s really constitutive of the church. It’s saying, okay, once Jesus left, how do we continue to discern together what is the will of the Spirit for the community of those seeking to follow the way of [00:03:00] Jesus? And so, a Synod is a path of gathering, discerning together, and trying to find the way forward. So, in the Council of Jerusalem, there’s this debate about will new members have to be circumcised. And it’s really a crisis of identity for the community. And the miracle of it is, they come to this kind of middle way, they’re negotiating their life together. What are we gonna do? And what’s funny is that in the next chapter, they do something very different. It just shows that Church politics has always been messy. Doing life together has always been messy. But the beautiful part about doing life together, inspired by and grounded in the witness of Jesus and the Gospels, is that we do trust that we’re not doing it alone, and that it’s not a purely human endeavor. And so, I think what was pretty bold and faith-filled was when Pope Francis called for a global Synod on this theme of Synodality. It was really rolling the dice on the Holy Spirit and the people of God and saying a Church structure that has a lot of distance between bishops and those who make decisions and the people of God in their daily lives and their struggles isn’t a Church that’s walking together. And so, it was really a journey that, you know, in the wake of abuse scandals, in the wake of so many challenges facing our world and humanity, was an invitation for bishops, especially, to turn their attention towards an intentional exercise of listening to ground their own leadership. And as Pope Francis would often talk about, he wanted bishops to smell like their sheep. And so, as Pope Francis has since passed, I think one of the miraculous things about the election of Pope Leo the 14th is that Pope Leo in his previous role as the head of the Dicastery of Bishops, was deeply involved in the Synod. He participated in all the sessions, and there was a sense that Cardinals had elected someone who was going to continue on this path of Synodality. Pope Francis is onto something. This is the way the Church is called to move in the world, that it can’t just be bishops in diocesan offices making decisions that then people follow, but that actually, there’s this more complex dynamic of how we are discerning how we are living the mission today. So that was the Synod and Synodality, and Pope Francis called for it in 2021. It kicked it off, but he had been on a steady path of this, transforming this entity of the Synod. It had been a Synod of bishops, and he was encouraging it to be more participatory all the way up to the Synod on Synodality, where he was really saying we need to reflect on this as the way we move in the world so that we can hold difficult topics. We could learn to have conversations without canceling each other or resorting to enemy camps. I think it’s an invitation for the Church to be a model for humanity, for [00:06:00] how to live with conflict and how to move as a global community in all its complexity. I think the Synod I could talk about all day, which is part of what we’re talking about today, but I could just see the imagination of that, like what Pope Francis was doing throughout his papacy as I was following it. And it felt like a thing worth trying to trust in. And we’re at a time where it’s hard to trust in institutions. It’s definitely hard to trust in people that have power and in our leaders. And part of what was remarkable as the Synod began was that it was truly an invitation to everyone. Everyone was invited to try to find a way to participate, to initiate participation, and to participate. That, to me, rings of the Gospel: this radical welcome and invitation to meet everybody where they are and hear where they are and figure out how we’re connected. And that’s a good use of our time to try to do that. And I [00:07:00] think in the US, there’s skepticism. I think some people felt that this was going to lead to changes that we want. And other people were afraid, oh, this is just some Trojan horse kind of process that’s going to make the Church wildly more progressive and change all these rules and stuff. And it was neither of those things. Instead, it really is an invitation to try to become the people of God and try to learn in this generation what that means. So, I was deeply compelled by the vision and just went all in. As we were just getting started with Discerning Deacons, we went to the opening mass of the Synod around October ‘21. And we were journeying with women who had participated in the Synod on the Amazon, and that really was like them starting to carve the new path of deeply participatory processes that surface what are the needs and hungers of the people of God that need to be [00:08:00] addressed and prioritized for us to move forward. And so, meeting these women who’d led the process across the Amazon and who’d participated in the Amazon Synod as observers—non-voting members, but part of this experience—I just really felt, “Oh, this feels like a way to let the Spirit in.” And it invites us to think of ourselves more as a people on the way, as a pilgrim people as opposed to a people that have all the answers or as just part of an all-knowing church that already knows where we need to go and what we need to do. Christina Gebel: Yeah. Yeah, that’s huge. And thank you for laying the groundwork for explaining that because as somebody who wasn’t as closely involved or even, I think I was aware that it was going on, but the Synod on Synodality piece, I could see my Catholic nun elementary school teacher being like, “You can’t define a word with using the word!” I was stuck on this, what does it mean. I love the part when you brought up that Pope Leo was in attendance. I remember Father Jim Martin saying, Oh, Pope Leo was at my table at the Synod. At the time, he was a Cardinal. Wow, what a great person to have at your table, because he then became Pope! Great seating arrangements. So, Casey Stanton: Yes. [laughs] Christina Gebel: So you, Casey, were just really onboard with what the vision was, but then you made a decision to be a part of it in a really tangible way. And that also involved your family, which is what this series is about. Many families just sat in the pews and said, Okay, what do we need to do? Sure. Great. Maybe they had an opinion, but your family is special. And that’s what I would love to hear about from you in your own words. Casey Stanton: Yeah. So, in terms of our family in this season, my kids were eight and 10. So my husband and I had often dreamt of could we do a missionary season in our family life? We both want to root our own family life deeply in the heart of the Church, and we want our kids to see that the Church is bigger than our local parish, as much as we love and are anchored in our local parish. I think we both were deeply shaped by immersive experiences abroad. My husband spent some time in El Salvador when he was pretty young. And it really deeply shaped his whole worldview and his understanding of the urgency of the Gospel around people’s material needs. And the work of peacebuilding is not abstract. So, it was a dream in the heart of our marriage, and we just weren’t ever sure when the time would be and when to disrupt your life. You’re raising your kids, you’re doing your jobs, you’re trying to do right. And, actually, I was on a retreat with a group of women—it’s a dangerous time—just with some dear, close, old friends. And at the same time, one of my oldest friends from childhood was towards the end of a losing battle with cancer. Walking with a friend as they die, you have to ask yourself, like, what am I doing with my life? And if I weren’t afraid and took risks, what would it look like? And so, in this time of retreat and in this season of accompanying a friend in this sort of tragic and beautiful, untimely end of her life. I just had this sense of call to go: what if you went all in? What would it mean to try to trust and lean into the fullness of what you think the Church really is and what it [00:12:00] means to be following in the Spirit that’s actually the one holding it all together? And so, I came home and proposed this to Phillipe, my husband, and I had just dreamed this sort of whirlwind of a world tour. I don’t know what it would be, but there are these points that had called to us in the world in Chiapas, which is one of the southernmost states in Mexico. There’s this remote community. It’s a Jesuit mission. And I had heard for years about the deacons there, and how there are hundreds of deacons, and how deacons’ wives are integral to the ministry that they carry out, and how the deacon ordination liturgies are these gorgeous celebrations where both a husband and wife are kneeling together in this sort of sacred circle, and the ordination looks like it is [00:13:00] bestowing a blessing on both of them. And I just had this image and this curiosity and knew some folks who had done some work there. And it also happened that my husband works with the Economy of Francesco, which is this community of faith-driven, Catholic-driven entrepreneurs and folks who are trying to figure out what it means to really do social and ecological good through the private sector. And so, he is very interested in cooperatives, worker-owned cooperatives. So, it just so happens that in this remote community, in Chiapas, there’s this super rad coffee-growing cooperative. It’s all these deacons who are coffee growers, but it was this ministry that started by the Jesuits: an indigenous-led community cooperative that owns every part of the means of production. So, it’s not just fair trade where they’re selling it at a fair market, but they actually own it. And you buy Capeltic [https://www.americamagazine.org/politics-society/2019/03/29/whats-your-cup-coffee-capeltic-chiapas-based-cooperative-serving/] coffee in a coffee shop in Mexico City, and anything [00:14:00] in that profit train is going back into the community. So, this was a dream that Phillipe and I had of what it would be to journey to this place that feels like this Venn diagram of our lives and our marriage, and so that was some of the dream. And then I could just keep thinking of other places, and we decided to lead Discerning Deacons members. Instead of having a conference together at the end of this sort of first phase of the Synod, we thought, What if we went on a pilgrimage to Mexico City to Our Lady of Guadalupe? And we worked with the women from the Amazon to plan this really remarkable pilgrimage together to really be offering up the work that we’re doing and seeking Our Lady of Guadalupe’s intercession and her prayer for the Americas, and to ask for her wisdom and her blessing on this journey that we were finding ourselves on, this beginning of a Synodal journey. So I think it was a time to enter into a pilgrimage and a spirit of pilgrimage. And I wasn’t going to do that away from my family. I was going to do it with them. So we proposed this to our children [00:15:00] eight and ten (years old). And one of the ways, when we were proposing it, was that we guaranteed that in every place we went, we would make sure that we tried the local frozen novelty. So, whatever it was, whether it was gelato in Italy or what kinds of frozen treats we could find anywhere on the streets of Mexico. And that became a bit of sweetening the deal for them as we told them we were going to leave our home for six to 12 months. And yeah, Christina Gebel: That was going to be one of my questions. What sweetened the deal for the kiddos? Casey Stanton: Yes. Christina Gebel: Eight and ten. Putting myself back in that timeframe as much as I can remember. Your routine is everything: your school friends, your activities. So, were they just, Hey, if we get gelato, we’re in? Casey Stanton: Yeah. I think they were normal kids about it. I think we felt that we were at a time in their life where they [00:16:00] weren’t so entirely peer-driven that they weren’t open to it. And so, I think it did feel like this opportunity to go on a family adventure. I remember being in the backseat of the taxi when we had landed at the airport in Chiapas and we were taking the road to San Cristóbal, which is a fairly long drive. And there weren’t seat belts in the back. And my son, the 8-year-old, turned to me and he was like, “The pilgrimage is really starting now, Mom!” It was just because it hadn’t gotten real to him. And we were bobbing and weaving around these trucks on these tiny two-lane roads up in the mountains, and they realized, Okay, yeah. We are somewhere else. We got to go to Palenque, which is, The side of an ancient civilization, and the fruits of it we’re seeing now a couple of years later, as they are more confident in their Spanish class. They’re better Spanish speakers than I am at this point, and their interest in ancient civilizations and their openness to the world. At the [00:17:00] time, I think like any kid, there was a discomfort and wrestling and little bits of complaining. And they would roll their eyes because we were talking church stuff all the time a little bit. But I think they did get to take it in. Because we received so much hospitality on the journey, and I think that’s what the final document of the Synod talks about. The church is relationships and pathways, and that’s what it felt like. Really, the living Church on earth is a set of relationships. And so we would be with one woman in Mexico City, and then she was telling us, Okay, if you’re going to Europe, are you thinking of going to Paris? Because I have people I could connect you with there. And we’re like, “We weren’t really thinking of that, but if you’re going to connect us with people who want to receive us, like, sure, why not?” So it was just being open to where the journey was going to go. It was marvelous. So we spent the first leg in Mexico, and then the second leg was in Europe. And we were in Rome for a good long time. So it was a beautiful opportunity to connect with people who are part of [00:18:00] the Synod process. It really is where all the roads lead to in the church. Yeah. Leaders of religious orders who are based there and folks doing all kinds of work in the church. But then we did go to France, and I am a product of the Sacred Heart Schools, so the Society of the Sacred Heart, which was founded by St. Madeleine Sophie Barat. And so, the only thing I knew I would want to do in Paris...I’m not someone who studies a lot about French life and Parisian culture or anything like that. I knew her remains were at a church in Paris. And so we were hosted in this amazing apartment, and just this incredible hospitality and generosity when people heard what we were trying to do. And we go to this church that just happens to be the church next door, and we go there. It’s a rainy Saturday evening vigil mass. And we’re walking around this gorgeous, huge cathedral at the end, and Philippe says, “You’re not going to believe this.” “What?” He says, “Get over here.” And there’s St. Madeleine Sophie Barat! Of all the churches in France and all the apartments we could [00:19:00] stay in. So, I was like, okay, here we go. This was the point. We were following the threads. And along the way, we were connecting with people who were involved in the Synod. So, we were just trying to ask religious orders: What does this mean for you? What does it mean in your context? What is Synodality here and in Mexico Especially in Chiapas, it was just the way of doing church. This was what had been deeply rooted in terms of “See. Judge. Act.” and responding to the needs. And so, seeing the way this was already lived in a way that felt different from the way I had experienced church growing up as a kid in Boston or in my adult years, it was really encouraging. I thought, oh, this is not new. This is not some newfangled thing. This is a deeply Vatican II methodology that is trying to be reinvigorated. And then similarly, there was a Jesuit parish in Madrid, and they really had gone all in on Synodality and the process. And so I was just sitting with the pastor reflecting on it, asking what came up? And part of it is that, at its surface, there are conflicts; you have to be willing to stomach some conflicts. And it calls forth a certain maturation of the faith because we have to acknowledge what we are resistant to about changing because it’s the way it was when we were kids and we like it that way, versus how we are really having an active faith with God now. What does that mean? And at that point, I mean, they were shifting around the way they did the homily. It was becoming more dialogical. And I mean, they were really taking to heart this invitation to think about how to become a more participatory church. What does that mean, liturgically? What does that mean in terms of the ministries we do? What does that mean at all these levels? So, I was holding the questions of the Synod everywhere I went. And then we were just following where relationships pointed us along the way. Christina Gebel: Wow. That’s incredible. What Spirit and also what courage! Actually, as you were painting the picture of y’all in the taxi, I got this [00:21:00] flashback to Miss Frizzle in the Magic School bus. This is like the magic Synod Taxi. It’s like, “Kids, we’re not just gonna read about this, we’re gonna get in and we are gonna go.” Casey Stanton: Exactly. That’s a great image. Yes. Christina Gebel: Yeah. Casey Stanton: Yeah. I was probably more like Ms. Frazzle on a lot of it. Christina Gebel: Yeah. I want to ask you about that. Making any trip as a family, whether by plane, train, bus, or automobile, can involve a lot of trepidation and worries. People might get sick, or kids might not be feeling it, or whatever. And one thing that I’ve always just admired about you and the fact that you made this decision is you really went for it. Were there any times that it landed, “Oh, this is tough”? And what did you do with that? Casey Stanton: Yeah. So I think, like any pilgrimage—and I think this is true about the Synod, too—when you set forth to [00:22:00] make a journey, you might have an idea about what it’s going to be about, but all the inner work ends up being often the real work and what it really is about. Me and my family going on a Synod pilgrimage didn’t change the Synod, but it changed us. There was a book that someone had recommended that I started reading on this journey that was really about intimacy and relationships and family. And as we were on it, I just found myself wanting to read it. Because in some ways, we were taken away from all the distractions and all the busyness, so we didn’t have all the activities and social commitments and all this other stuff. It was like we were figuring out what we were going to do together, and we were just spending more time together than ever. It was really an opportunity, I think, for me to see how I was being the mom that my actual human children needed me to be, and what were [00:23:00] the stories and scripts inside my own head that I needed to acknowledge were active, and I needed to set aside so that I could really be present to my kids. There was a day in Rome, I think my husband and I will never forget. It was like my daughter just really fell apart, she was done. She had fallen apart. She was maxed all the way out. She’s 11 at this point, I think, on the journey. And she just wouldn’t move; she was just having a full scene in the street. It was just a full scene; it was like she was not to be moved. She was so upset. She just had a torrent of emotion coming out of her. And I think I just had some old scripts in me that were like she needs to act this way, or she’s not going to make it in the world; you need to correct her about this—all this stuff. The impact of the stories in my head were just leading her to feel judged by me and not [00:24:00] loved infinitely. She just, I think, felt judged and not really seen and not really heard and not really understood. So, I think her falling apart and me realizing I want to be a different parent, I want to have a different relationship with my kids—that is honest and real, where they can trust me, where they actually know I’m on their side. I don’t just say that and they’re empty words. So I think there was some healing to do in our own family system, in what had kept me from feeling like I could be as intimate and present as I wanted to be. Yeah. And so, I think the journey was as much about that, too; it was about our own family deepening and me having space to acknowledge the places where I was still in need of conversion. Christina Gebel: Wow. That’s powerful on so many [00:25:00] levels, both as a mom and as a pilgrim and as a person of faith. When I think of family trips, I think this could go one of two ways: we could all come out closer or we could all come out a little spicier, right? While you were describing that, when I was on the Camino—and granted it was just me, myself, and I—But the way that a pilgrimage strips away everything and forces you to confront those scripts is so powerful. For me, it was like, I’m going to go on the Camino. I’m going to be Reese Witherspoon on Wild. And I’m going to have this triumphant journey. It was at a really rough point in my life, and I struggled so hard. Like, I spun the Camino Wheel of Challenges and I hit every one. Oh no. And that’s what I [00:26:00] realized while I was convalescing for a week I don’t even know what. Yeah. I was like, wow. I really had an idea of how I thought this was going to go and what the lesson was going to be. But actually, God was like, I need you to focus right now on what is real, and you need to confront these parts of yourself. What’s amazing is that you all did that as a family. Like, what a powerful opportunity to be on pilgrimage together! Do you see the fruits of that? Even now, how has that shaped your family identity since you’ve returned? Casey Stanton: In so many ways. In so many ways. My best friend died in May that year, and then we set off in July, and it was a real shattering for my family of origin. Our families are very intertwined, and you know how at these threshold [00:27:00] moments, if you’re a person who follows family systems or anything like that, everything gets renegotiated on those thresholds. And it was a pretty rough renegotiation. And so, I think both my own family of origin was in a time of real breakage and then I was on this journey to try to reckon with that. And try to figure out how I wanted to be a more loving mother and life partner. And the gift of the pilgrimage was it was this space to, like you said, be stripped down and confronted with that. We did discern that we weren’t sure if we were going to go for a whole year. And then the Synod itself extended by a year, the process. Pope Francis extended the process, and after about six months, as we were hitting December, I thought our kids needed to go home. I think it’s time. I think that the graces of this have been real and received, and that the kids should [00:28:00] go back to school. So, we had done some homeschooling over here on the road, but we discerned that it felt like this is at its end. And there was a little sense of loss or failure, like if we were supposed to keep going? But again, there was no script for this. We were discerning it as we went. And so I think as we returned, it was not an uncomplicated reentry back into life. But I do think that over the next one to two years, I think one of the biggest pieces I saw, especially with my relationship with my eldest daughter, was her really believing I was on her team. We had weathered something together, and now she’s almost 14; she’s going to start high school this fall. And I feel that she really trusts me, and she’ll come to me with real stuff. And I also know more clearly what’s fine to do and [00:29:00] what’s fine to let go of. So, I think those are some of the fruits of that time. We came back and we were open to a new season in our family life, and I pretty quickly got pregnant. And so now we have Oscar. There’s a big gap in those kids, but it feels like an extension of the pilgrimage. It was like a whole saying yes to our family life together and doubling down on it. Sometimes you just want to escape your family life. You’re like, This is a lot. I can’t wait until they’re grown and gone and we can get my freedom back. But I think through the pilgrimage, I really felt, No, these are the people I want to love more than anything in the world. And I felt that I was on a journey to learn how to love them more. And the fruit of that was openness to receiving more children, which I think before then I had been reluctant about, because I thought, I don’t know if I can. I don’t know if I have it in me. I don’t know. And I think it’s because my own understanding of love and intimacy needed healing. So we went on a wild ride, and they became siblings to a little baby. Christina Gebel: Yeah. Casey Stanton: Yeah. Christina Gebel: I can’t wait until Oscar’s older. [00:30:00] And he’s like, “You all did what?” Casey Stanton: Yeah. Christina Gebel: He’ll know. I was like, That’s incredible. And honestly, obviously being a birth doula, the timing of all that is not lost on me. It is just like this new life, right? This re-creation, this generative energy. And something that came to me while you were speaking was that we really are pilgrims as a family on the life journey. Casey Stanton: Yes, Christina Gebel: You all went on a pilgrimage, but this is kind of the big Pilgrimage with the capital P. And I know our time is winding down, and I just have a couple more questions for you. One is, the point of this series with Radical Family is not for somebody to sit here and listen and say, “Oh my gosh, that’s amazing, but I could never do that.” The point is to hear stories like yours, from your family, from your work, and say, “That stirs something in me.” And it might even just be like a little wisp of a flame, [00:31:00] and it inspires. These are topics that deepen faith and inspire action on this podcast. So, what would you say to somebody that’s listening to you, that’s listening to other episodes, hearing families talk about these incredible journeys of faith. How would you encourage them or what wisdom would you impart to them if they’re just starting to get these whispers of an idea or a direction to go in? Casey Stanton: I think I’d say, trust the whisper. I caught this vision in March, and we didn’t leave until July. There was lots of discerning and considering, and talking to folks and asking questions. There was a book that someone handed me; it was called like Family Sabbaticals. Oh, great, someone has written a book on this! I’m not the first one. And of course there are a ton of people who’ve done stuff like this and all kinds of research on how to pack really light. Everyone’s just gonna have a backpack. What are we taking with us? [00:32:00] Don’t take a lot for the journey, but I think whatever we’re called to, it’s not that everybody’s called to make that particular journey, but I do think we’re all called to learn to trust and follow the whisper and to allow ourselves to be surprised and to not be so afraid to risk. That’s the gift of the invitation. You kind of risk walking on water, right? You risk doing something that you can’t quite imagine doing without faith. And that happens, I think, in so many settings, like whether it’s discerning can walls can expand in our house so we could take in people that need a place to stay right now, or where we can stretch to make the food go farther that we need to steward for those who need it. I feel like there are so many people who are filled up with generosity and kindness, and I think what was humbling on this trip for us was that [00:33:00] we were on the receiving end of hospitality. We got to Spain, and it had become winter and we had started out in July in Mexico. And so, we didn’t have winter gear, and we met this marvelous family through these different Jesuit networks and connections, and they just literally pulled these two coats out of the closet to hand to my kids. It’s just being ready to give and give freely and then also to name when you have needs and to receive them. And so it was that kind of exchange of gifts that I think also is inside the whisper, that we all have things to give and we all have needs that we need to ask for help to meet and to receive from others. Sometimes we just keep all that to ourselves. And so, I think sometimes the whisper is to speak some of it out loud. Speak the vulnerabilities out loud, speak the wildest dreams out loud, write the book, start the band like Christina Gebel: yeah. Casey Stanton: Yeah. Christina Gebel: That’s, Casey Stanton: do the podcast. Christina Gebel: This really was my whisper. Yeah. Yeah. To be frank. And the first [00:34:00] series was on Acedia and how the False Spirit starts saying: Who are you to start a podcast? And our call is to push back against that and say, I’m a created child of God. And to discern our way through those doubts and those fears. So, I’d like to end our conversation with where we started, which was back on the Synod piece of all of this. You all as a family participated in a really real way. But many families experienced the Synod through news articles, the internet, in the pews, or whatever messages were told to them about the Synod from the pulpit. So, having done what you’ve done and been so deeply moved by the Synod process, what specifically for families do you see as a role and a [00:35:00] call to participation in the process? Casey Stanton: That’s a great question, Christina. I would encourage spending time reading the final document. There’s a lot out there about methodology, like how we do communal discernment and the implementation. The ongoing process is really about how do we become synodal at every level in the life of the Church. And so what does it mean in our domestic church to adopt practices of communal discernment? I think that’s a live place where this can touch down in people’s lives. One of my colleagues, who’s also super involved in the Synod, last year for Lent, she had her teenagers. They sat around the table and they did a conversation in the Spirit, which is one of these Synod methods where you speak in rounds and speak to the center, and you’re noticing what convergences are. But they used this method to discern what their Lenten practices were going to be and what they were going to do as a family. And she said, “I didn’t think it would work. I thought it was totally going to fail, but it was amazing.” And [00:36:00] they came up with stuff that I never would’ve come up with and it was so good. And so part of it is honoring that our kids and each one of us is a vessel of the Spirit. Some of the methods around the Synod are inviting us into practices that make that real in our lives. And so how can we do that? How do we practice communal discernment? What are some of those ways in our own homes and lives where we can actually discern together? And so that would be one, and that’s a fun thing to think about trying to develop out a little more, I think the Synod really is about our public life together. I did have some various people say, “Oh, Synodality starts in the home.” And I said, “Not really.” As someone who went out of a Synodal pilgrimage, I think Synod’s actually about our collective life and our life together and how we are distributing resources, setting priorities, and deciding what really needs attention and must be addressed. That’s about our shared life together and so many of us are underdeveloped in participating in [00:37:00] that. We don’t know how to do it. We aren’t invited to. The next thing I would say is, okay, we actually don’t need more permission to try to initiate processes inside of our own local communities. So looking at the Synod document and seeing where the opportunities are in our own parish, when was the last time we did a robust listening campaign to ask what the needs of the people are right now? What are the pressures on people’s lives these days, especially in these times that we’re in right now? Have we stopped to listen to that and been intentional about it? Because part of what you’re listening for is what are the convergences, what is shared that we had no idea about, because we’re mostly just friendly and we’re making small talk and being polite and wishing each other well and praying for one another. So it’s cracking open some relational space to then say, oh, actually, a lot of people here are sharing some key concerns, and what are we called to do in response to that? So read the final document and then take it to prayer and think about how this would strengthen our own community to have a communal discernment process that would invigorate our local life together. And no one has to carry that on their back alone. It’s meant to be a shared endeavor. But those would be a couple places. In our own households, how can we actually invite more communal discernment? And then in our communities, how can we be catalysts or animators of these processes, which are not aimed at a singular reform in the Church. They’re aimed at renewing every part of the Church’s life through spirit-filled participation and discernment together. Christina Gebel: Wow, that’s incredible. I need the mind blown emoji right now. But it also speaks to, for me, the way that families were back in the day was like parents would decide this and then everybody would follow suit; or, take care of your own family, and that’s your first priority. Whereas this Synodality thinking is communal and opens up the family [00:39:00] to the wider world. That’s an aha moment for me, wow. Thank you so much, Casey. You are a woman of faith and just an inspiration on a number of levels, and thank you for letting us into your family life to hear about how your work intersects with that. It was so inspiring, and I think there’s going to be a lot of whispers of flames that come out of hearing your words. Casey Stanton: Thank you so much for the invitation and for your curiosity. It was fun to reflect on this very formative time in life, and prayers for all those who hear and are discerning what it is they’re called to do to kind of love their own people a little harder. Christina Gebel: Amen. Casey Stanton: Amen. Thank you. All right. This is a public episode. If you would like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit christinagebel.substack.com [https://christinagebel.substack.com?utm_medium=podcast&utm_campaign=CTA_1]

Episode 10: Fostering & Adoption through a Faith-Filled Lens

Christina Gebel: [00:00:00] Welcome to the Moderate Catholic, where we discuss topics that deepen faith and inspire action. I am your host, Christina Gebel, and this is episode 10, “A faith-filled lens of fostering and adoption.” Welcome back, everyone. I am really excited to be here with you today, still in our second season called Radical Family, where families are making bold choices to live out their faith, and I am so pleased today to have two dear friends, local to where I am in North Carolina, who have made the faith filled decision to grow their family, and I think you will really love to hear their story, hear them reflect on that time in their life. So with that, I will hand it over to Heather and Patrick Curran. Would y’all like to introduce yourselves? Heather Curran: I’m Heather and I [00:01:00] am a nurse and a lifelong Catholic. I was raised in Southern California. I had the pleasure of meeting Patrick in college when we were both at the Jesuit University of Loyola University Chicago. Woo. And then we married and moved to North Carolina where we have been for a long while now. And we have been married creeping up on 20 years, but about 17 time really flies. I’ll pass it on to Patrick. Patrick Curran: Thank you, Dear. Christina, yeah, it’s great to be doing this with you. I’m Patrick Curran. By way of introduction I’m Heather’s husband and in the foster care journey. I have to say she’s definitely been the leader, but I’m certainly an avid and willing participant so glad to be doing that. As she mentioned, we’ve been married for almost 20 years. And I think for this context, it’s relevant to say that our faith is maybe part of what brought us [00:02:00] together. And our faith is what led us to our faith community here in North Carolina when we moved here in 2020 and our Heather Curran: In 2010. Patrick Curran: Thank you. In 2010, too many zeros. Our decision to become foster parents and the journey through all of that has been supported by that faith community in incredible ways and continues to be so I’m grateful for all of that. And I’m sure we’ll obviously unpack that more and a little bit about our background and how we came to that. Christina Gebel: Yes. And absolutely we will unpack it ‘cause I know personally, just by the pleasure and honor of knowing both of you, that there’s a real discernment journey there and a great story. And I would say a very happy, not ending, but a very happy present that we will get to, certainly Patrick Curran: Ongoing. Christina Gebel: Yes. A very happy ongoing presence. But perhaps you could take us [00:03:00] back to the beginning. I knew you all when you were. In one of the 17 years, and you were think thinking about growing your family and you were attempting to do that. Can you tell us about those years and share as much or as little as you’d like to about your journey to starting a family? Heather Curran: I think from the beginning, both Patrick and I were very interested in having family. That was always a part of our conversations when we were dating. Our way of dating, I think, was always thinking about the future and I don’t think either of us were good at being casual daters. From the time that we were growing in our relationship, what would a family look like if we were to marry, was always a part of the conversation. I knew beginning in college that there was potential that it would be a challenge for me to get pregnant. [00:04:00] So that actually was a conversation that we started having before we were even married. And if that were to be a reality, what would that be like for you, Patrick. And would that be something we could maneuver together? In our marriage at the time, both of us very easily said yes, adoption would be a very reasonable choice for us. And something that even if we were able to have our own kids, we would be open to talking about. And I think that really helped when later on down the line, that became a reality. At least for me, it was very comforting to know that this is something that we had been in alignment on, from the get-go. Fast forward, we’re married, we were open to having kids from the beginning. It was just something both of us had always wanted and imagined for our lives. And it was not happening. And not happening. So the first year, nothing, but that’s okay ‘cause we’re trying to figure [00:05:00] out how to be married, and that’s its own challenge with its own ups and downs. And fast forward probably five years we had settled in North Carolina and we were really in a place where we felt stable as adults. We had a home and well before we had hoped for a family, it was fine that we weren’t, ‘cause maybe we weren’t totally prepared, but now we felt we were in a place where we really were ready to be moving forward with that and it wasn’t happening and we were ready to investigate the next steps are there things that we can be doing to make it happen. So, we went to a fertility specialist and did some workup. And for women out there that have been through this, that piece has its own emotional journey. I think for me, I went through HSG ultrasound. It’s a very vulnerable experience, and I feel [00:06:00] comfortable sharing that here because I know for other women, this is also a point at which a reality you’re afraid of can become very real. And for me, while I was in the ultrasound, I just, I knew based on what was happening with the people around us and the healthcare professionals, that there definitely was a challenge. It didn’t even feel right for me while it was happening. And I was like, okay, this is this is a reality. And I think I had that nagging feeling for a long time, but it was in that moment on the table, and I started to sob during that experience and Patrick was right there, and I could see it in his eyes that he could see the pain. For me, I’ll say it was grief. There was a lot of grief in that moment. And then it completed. We didn’t talk about results. And Patrick and I just went to lunch together in Chapel Hill, and he just created space for me to be grieving and listened and received that. And I will always [00:07:00] be grateful to him that through this whole process, he has had his own things to process, but has always let me have my space and listened and been patient and asked first what it was and I needed what I needed in those moments and what was it that I felt comfortable with or was hoping to do next. In a relationship, that has given me lots of peace and made it, I think, a much easier, hard journey than it could have been. When we got the results, we had a great physician who is an expert in his field. But he started talking about IVF and for me, it has just been a gut feeling for me that was not a route that I wanted to take. And in that conversation I had said that, and he immediately said, is this a [00:08:00] religious thing? Because it doesn’t need to be. And I really bristled at that. Because for me it was a faith piece. It wasn’t [that] my religion has this rule. It wasn’t about I can’t do this as a Catholic. For me it was, I spiritually, feel, my gifts need to be used in a different way and our resources and how I want to move forward, I want to put in a different direction. So it was a negative experience for me in that moment. And again, Patrick, let me lead in how we moved forward from that, which was a wonderful gift. And maybe I should give him some space now that he offered all of that to me in those moments. But that was the point at which the conversation about moving forward with adoption [00:09:00] or foster care became very real, and we had to start making decisions about what that journey forward would look like. Christina Gebel: Yeah, Patrick, before you jump in on your reaction to that, I just wanna first thank you, Heather, for your vulnerability and sharing that, and for folks who know me personally, I can relate to a lot of what you’ve said. Just being on the fertility journey myself with my spouse, and also opting to not do IVF, not simply because it’s a rule, but just because it wasn’t for me, and having a supportive partner in that is just everything on that journey. Patrick, I’d love to hear what all that was like for you from your perspective. Not only accompanying, but witnessing everything that was happening and for me at least, in a very bodily way, [00:10:00] it’s happening to one spouse. But in your case, what was going on in your mind and in your faith conversation? Patrick Curran: Yeah. Thank you for that, Christina. There’s a number of things there that I’ve want to maybe touch on, and I appreciate you recognizing as a spouse, as a partner as someone who tries to live as a faithful person, I believe that God calls us to honor other people, right? And particularly in a Christian marriage, there’s a way of doing that. I think it’s very easy for the husband, for the male partner to be lost in that conversation. And to say I’m doing all this for my wife, or I’m like Christ calls us to sacrifice yourself for your bride. And I think it’s important that we not overlook the fact that men come to their marriages with dreams and ideas and [00:11:00] what all that is. So, maybe I can share a little bit of that. Going all the way back, as Heather mentioned, we had talked about this when we were dating and just the one little piece of color I would add there is that we both had at least in conversation, talked about wanting to have a big family. And, Christina, you know me well, you know that I love things that are big and chaotic. Yes, I can take things that are small and make them large very quickly. And I have 19 first cousins, and I love each of them in strange and unique ways, and always had dreamed that we would have a large family. And, in my own discernment process of my life and my career, that was a big component. I love the idea of big family and so as Heather mentioned, as our marriage progressed and we were trying to get pregnant and being unsuccessful with that, and then eventually going through the fertility workup, I’m not a medical professional, [and] I was in an adjacent space while they were doing the HSG procedure and I [00:12:00] also knew that something wasn’t right. I was like watching this grainy image on a monitor, and I just had this feeling that like this part of the conversation was not going to be smooth or easy or go the way that we wanted it to. I think Heather, when we were dating, had invited me to offer up those ideas that I had about family. We had a joke at one point we would have 37 kids. Obviously no reasonable person expects their wife to naturally have 37 kids. We were always talking about adoption. But I think we had carried the idea that we would have some natural children and then have some kids through adoption. And we were always curious what would our genetic mashup look like? That part of the dream, I think, we had to surrender. I don’t want to say that it died because it didn’t die, we chose to offer that up. We had always had this idea that we would have a big family and as we were getting [00:13:00] those test results, it became obvious to me that the ways that we had talked about doing that was not gonna happen. I could tell in the way like the physician was talking about what was gonna happen surgically and medically. I was like, we’re not on the same page here. The way that she thinks about her body and the way that I wanted our decisions to be respected in that process. We were just misaligned with how that was all gonna happen. But the assumption that we weren’t going to move forward with IVF we’re following what our religion tells us to do because that’s what the religion says, right? It’s like a non-thinking action. I would say [that] is very distasteful and off-putting to me in any conversation and for any person of any faith. And I think part of why you’ve started this whole effort is to help bring together that space that we’re faithful people with our entire selves. And so then the decision to look into [00:14:00] adoption and kind of what route would that be it was a natural continuation of where we had been, but it also required the opportunity to lay down at the foot of the Cross what’s, yeah, this is coming back raw… [getting emotional] What were the things that we were gonna let go of? What were the dreams that we had dreamed? What were the prayers that we had prayed as young people as independent people before we ever knew each other as a young couple who was dating as a young married couple? Who do we feel called to be? And to allow space for that grief to be there and to believe that there’s purpose and intention. And all of the things that come on Easter Sunday. And on Easter Monday. What you mentioned before it’s not just about accompanying maybe that’s not even the right word, because I think for as much as I was holding space for Heather, she was also holding space for me. And so really [00:15:00] that’s marriage; that’s journeying together. Christina Gebel: Oh, my nose and my eyes keep running over here. [getting emotional] I think one, because I can feel it, right? I can feel it in your words. And I know you as beloved friends, and it hits so close to home for me, too. I really appreciate, Patrick, that you said out loud that sometimes partners don’t always get the full, I don’t even know what the right word is, in this journey because on the one hand we focus so much on the bodily things that are going on or not happening. And if you really love your spouse, which you do in the way that Christ loved the Church, how can you not have your own grief and reaction and journey, simultaneously? I don’t know that there’s many spaces out there that name that so gracefully. So I appreciate you sharing that vulnerably ‘cause I can imagine that there’s [00:16:00] people out there that are like, yeah, I can totally relate. Patrick Curran: And I think it was present to me also that the way that we, as Catholics talk about family, we talk about the woman’s role talk about the spouse’s role and this idea that we’re going through these medical conversations. And as much as I very much have longing to have my own biological children, it’s her body. Like, I’m in no position to tell her what to do with her body. Yeah, I don’t know where that lands for other people who might be listening or how they would integrate that with their faith perspectives. But if there was any space to hold for Heather, I think I wanted to make sure that she knew that whatever choice she felt she wanted to make or needed to make or felt called to make she wasn’t doing that alone. And she wasn’t doing that either in spite of me or that she was gonna have to fight with me [00:17:00] that I was in this with her. She was making decisions for both of us. And I think she was aware of that and I wanted her to know that she was fully supported in doing that. Heather Curran: And I don’t know how you feel about this, Christina, but I think one of the things that was challenging at this point is you don’t realize the expectations that you’ve created in your mind until they’re not met, or you realize that they’re not gonna come to be. And that’s anything in our lives that we become disappointed by. You grow up thinking, I’m going to finish high school and then I’m gonna do this piece, and then I will meet the person that I want to spend my life with. And then we move on to having a family. You do this piece and then you check this box and then you do this box. And the reality for many is that it doesn’t happen quite like that. And suddenly we’re at this point where we have to make intentional choices about [00:18:00] how to pursue this or that, or realize that some pieces are just not going to be. And in the Catholic setting, there were a whole lot of people that had a lot of suggestions, how we might make this happen, and the miracle that is coming to be and hold out faith and with all kinds of well-intentioned loving thoughts and prayers. And they were very hard for me to receive and very hard for me to intellectually and spiritually grapple with. Then I also feel terribly ungrateful because sometimes I’m mad about what someone has offered or I just am sad about it. But where is my spiritual joy? There’s just so many layers. And I remember a conversation with my mom where I was [00:19:00] really just bothered by the idea that I should just be waiting for a miracle. And I’m like, miracles don’t happen for everyone, or they’re not what we expect them to be. I just really had a hard time with that idea and was like, I’m not gonna sit here and just say, my miracle is coming. And the reality is now I look back and I have two miracles in my house. They did not come in the way that I envisioned them. And it was a decade of grappling with lots of different things before that was our reality. And I am so grateful for them with all of that in mind. And for anyone going through this, that 10 years is long, and it feels like forever, and you don’t know when it’s gonna end or what the other side is gonna look like. And now that we are where we are, I [00:20:00] can’t imagine our now being any different than it is. But all of that time before was very hard. And there were many tears and moments where Patrick found me curled up in a ball in our room. Just sad. So there is a miracle in that. And I also am very careful with how I talk to other people that are in that place about it because they have to have room for pain. Like I had room for pain ‘cause it is hard and it hurts. And we hear so many messages about all of it every person’s journey is different. And it’s a lot to hold. So Patrick Curran: I think maybe just three pieces of color about this that are coming to mind for me. I’m thinking about your question what was your journey like prior to starting this? First and foremost, I wanna say that both Heather and I come from very loving and [00:21:00] supportive families. So our desire to have a family. This entire journey from our fertility journey into adoption and then deciding to foster and then adopting from foster care. All of that has been very well supported by our immediate families and our extended families. I actually hope we can unpack some of that a little bit later and we’ll talk more about the influence of that. And… Heather Curran: a lot of pins on things, honey. [laugh] Patrick Curran: I know. It’s a short podcast [laugh] yeah. So I think that it matters a lot, right? And we experienced God’s love in family throughout our entire lives and with the challenges that come with families as well. So that helps support us. And then, as we said before, our faith community within our parish was a big part of that. And it was 10 years of knowing people in that community from the time that we moved to North Carolina before we moved forward with becoming foster parents of people saying, [00:22:00] oh, my gosh, you would be great parents. Yes. Thank you. And then as Heather mentioned, sometimes people make comments that they’re intended to be helpful, but they end up being very hard and difficult to hold. But all of that time, we were being supported by our community in that space. And so then when we did finally have children placed with us in foster care and then adopt them, like that community was ready to receive them and they were excited for us, and they were joyful for that. Christina Gebel: This has been such an emotional journey for me just sitting here listening to you and knowing a lot of these things. I didn’t know about the 37 kids. [laugh] I will say that is the first time I’m hearing this [part], but, just all the emotions and grief, I think for me hits really hard. And also this navigating of people trying to help in the best way they can and trying to rationalize the situation [00:23:00] and their faith angle. And eventually you all started the process of fostering, adopting, I heard you say, that the grief never really fully just disappears. But what were those early days like of starting that process? Because I know for other people I’ve talked to, it’s a very daunting process in the beginning, and one doesn’t necessarily just turn on a dime and start the next path. So what were those early days like when you were just starting to get acquainted with fostering? Patrick Curran: The kind of initial posture from us was like, do we want to move forward? And what are the paths, right? Like we had talked about adoption as a concept. This was now suddenly a thing and we wanted to understand it better. What could this look like? We knew through hearsay that adoption could be very expensive. That was part of the choice not to do IVF was like, we could spend a lot of money [00:24:00] doing IVF or we could spend a lot of money adopting a kid that needs a family then of course you have decisions like international or domestic. There’s an entire forest of decision trees to be navigated. And Heather really took that on for me at that point. And then fast forwarding, we actually ended up starting the process twice. Heather Curran: For me, I have always, for better or worse, made decisions based on my gut I have realized through relationships and conversations with other people, that I sometimes make big decisions in a way that’s different from others. I don’t make long lists and do lots of big planning, and there was just something that kept bringing me back to the idea of foster care. I was very overwhelmed by the [00:25:00] number of different pathways for adoption, the international versus domestic question, the how do you maneuver, what organization manages this in an ethical way? There was just so much to me, and I just kept coming back to, if there is a need in my community and my desire and want is to fill our home with love of a child, why don’t I use that to meet this need? Some of that comes from the Jesuit way of talking about my greatest desire meets the world’s need. And that just clicked for me in this idea and this thought I couldn’t really look away from that once it seeded itself for me. And I knew that was a big ask because [00:26:00] foster care doesn’t automatically come with permanency. And for us, we knew that we wanted the ultimate piece of adoption. And that is not what foster care is per se. And I think we knew that intellectually, but then as we were doing the training, they really made sure that hit home for us. And we had to talk about that a lot. And I think we felt open to that. But it also had to be something that we continually revisited and talked to each other about and thought about. And it’s the piece that people really have a hard time understanding when we talk about foster care to other people because there is that desire for permanency and people want permanency for us, and they want permanency for the child. And the idea of why a child is in foster care sometimes is the extreme [00:27:00] reason for why kids are in foster care. And there’s an automatic assumption. I think sometimes parents of children in foster care become villainized and there are a lot of different ways that people come into care or hit rock bottom, so when we were going through training, they talk about the number one goal of foster care is reunification. And when that cannot be, that is when we move forward with other options for permanency, including adoption. And again, I think we could intellectualize that both of us felt like we could commit to that and spiritually that would be challenging, but that we understood that was the reality. And that also. Comes with its own many challenges and the reality of that is harder sometimes than you think [00:28:00] it’s going to be. Or not harder than you think it’s going to be ‘cause it is hard. But like Patrick was saying, we decided to go through our local county foster care system and we started the training and we were getting to the part where they were getting ready to license us. And we had some shifts happening in our home professionally and realized that we weren’t stable enough for us to bring in that instability that would come with foster care. And so we had put it on hold until we were in a better place. And so we got to go through the training twice and we got to think about all of these pieces twice and really get them rooted in our minds. What do you have to add to that, Patrick? Patrick Curran: So many things. Yeah, I was just reflecting, maybe going back. All of the Ignatian methods of discernment Heather’s is follow the spirit faithfully off the edge of a [00:29:00] cliff and Christina Gebel: what a great cliff it is and Patrick Curran: or the great cliff. Christina Gebel: Great cliff. Patrick Curran: It’s so true. There’s a couple of threads there about like, where is Catholicism living in all of this? And again, it goes back to the roots that we have in our families. I could tell you very explicit moments when my dad, who is not outspoken, and as a young person growing up, he was not like, oh, Catholicism first. That’s not my dad. He was a father and a husband, and somebody just tried to do right by his family. But there were a couple of key moments where he was like, we need to live the Beatitudes right now. And I’m like, I don’t, okay. I’m seven. What does that mean? I think about like all of our experiences at Loyola and the environment that we were in. Specifically the quote that Heather just mentioned, this idea of vocation being, where our deepest desires meet the world’s deepest need. That theme as an expression of our [00:30:00] faith was something that was not by accident in our training, in our formation, and, resonated with both of us and has resonated in our professional lives. And so here we are at this kind of key crossroads of who do we feel called to be as adults, as individuals, and as a married couple, and the decision to lean into foster care because it is a need in our world. Now that said, we’ve interacted with many people who have thought about and discerned becoming foster parents because there’s a great need. It’s clearly not the thing that they’re called to. I think there’s an important part of discernment and I don’t wanna claim or make it sound like we went through some very intentional structured discernment process. There is a process there, and we did approach it [00:31:00] faithfully, meaning that in the way that we live our everyday faith, we continue to ask God, where are you in this and where are you calling us? And I think Heather is very free about following God through any door that God opens in front of her. Which I guess I’m a very resistant sheep lost on the mountainside like that. But that ended up taking us into our local community, foster care. And that’s a beautiful thing and has been a tremendous gift. So, there is a structured discernment process. And I wanna say that to give credit to our trainers and the people who run our county led foster care program, I think do a really good job with the parental training and a part of that, and they tell you straight up is A, we’re trying to scare you out of this. B, the purpose of foster care is reunification. So we are asking you to give your entire heart to these children, and we are promising you that we are going to break it because their goal is to keep those kids [00:32:00] with their birth family, and that’s what’s best for the kid. So again, if we’re approaching this as Christians and we’re saying, God, you’re inviting me to die to myself for someone else’s sake, then without trying to be a martyr, the invitation is to lay down your own desires and do what is best for the child. And I genuinely believe that every true parent does that. I don’t think you have to be a foster parent. I don’t think you have to wear a red cape or be some kind of superhero or magic Christian. I think if you have children in your home and you love them as a true parent, you put their needs in front of yours every single day. And the call of a foster parent is to do that and to recognize that means potentially giving up the gift of the child. And again, I think as Christians there’s a part of our spirituality and our theology that says the children in our home, whether they’re biological or not, are a [00:33:00] gift from God and whatever they’re called to in their lives, God calls us to give them up and to trust God’s will for them. Let God make the miracle out of them that they are. So I think we have simply tried to do that. And so, then there have been real moments where we have had to grapple with the desire for adoption and that desire for permanency. And as Heather mentioned in 2014, we had gone through the training the first time, and part of that discernment process the trainers actually said to us, there’s some resistance here. It doesn’t feel like you are ready. And that was their part of the discernment, right? And we had to sit with that and figure out what that was. And it was four years before we came back and did that again. And I remember at that point we were coming up on our 10th anniversary for our marriage. And I had said to Heather I feel like I’m getting old and crotchety and a little stuck in my ways. And if we’re going to do this, then let’s really do it. And if not, [00:34:00] then I think we need to mutually discern if we’re going to be a couple that doesn’t have children, we have a lot of gifts and a lot of bandwidth, and how are we gonna be using that? And so we determined at that point that we were still very interested in pursuing this journey. We went again, back through the training, completed the licensure, and it was not an easy process for getting placements in our home, which was strange. But then after about seven months from the time that we finally got our license to when we had our first placement [who] was a young five week, baby boy who was blonde-haired, blue-eyed, and if you know anything about foster care, that is the exact opposite of what they tell you to expect, right? It’s the whole thing is if you’re, you should expect to have school children usually of either mixed race or minority race in your home and the idea that you would have an infant, baby boy, blonde hair, blue eyed is just a random thing. What I think was most [00:35:00] striking and potentially difficult at the time was he looked like he could have been our natural child. It’s the Advent season, by the way, when the boy gets placed with us. So our church is filled with all the stories of Mary and the coming of children and this whole like elevation of the family in our Christian narrative and what does that look like? And all of a sudden, we show up at church with a baby carrier. And people are like, oh, my gosh, we didn’t even know you were pregnant. And so our whole community who had been on this journey with us and were wanting so much to see, the love that we had for each other in our marriage, pour out into the gifts of family, just felt, oh, this is incredible. And we were surrounded and uplifted in so many ways by that. And then fortunately for that baby boy one of his biological family members, was able to eventually adopt him. So he was placed with us for only six weeks. We had initially been told upfront that we should expect to adopt him because the case was a little complicated and they weren’t sure what was gonna happen. But they [00:36:00] started out by asking us, are you prepared to care for this child for the long term? And not just in the term of a long-term foster placement, which might be one to two years, but actually adopting him. By all means, yes. And I specifically remember holding him in the hospital, like looking at his face and saying I’m committing myself to you. And having these spiritual reflections and praying prayers of thanksgiving to God that somehow our first foster placement is someone that they’re asking us, will you adopt? And then in a very quick turn of events, a good thing for him, but a hard Cross for us to bear was that he was placed with his aunt. And that, as far as we know, has been a very successful placement, and he is thriving and doing well. But it caused a lot of pain for us. It clarified for us how much our hearts were desiring for adoption. And we [00:37:00] didn’t realize how much us having a child would bring out other aspects of our community. And they were so excited for us. Our family members were like, we’re finally grandparents. The aunts and uncles are getting all excited, there’s all this stuff going on. And then all of a sudden, he was gone. And so it wasn’t just our pain, it was pain for the community, and we didn’t feel like that was fair and we both still had this desire to be parents. So, fast forward, what ends up happening? Through a process of healing and conversation in a quick short few weeks, we had decided let’s move forward with adoption. For anyone who doesn’t know, adopt us kids.gov.org.com, dot something. Go look it up, go find it. Christina will put it in the show notes. [yes, I did and it’s https://adoptuskids.org] There are thousands of kids available for adoption in the United States that need a loving home. They’re broken just like you and me. They need great parents, so [00:38:00] go adopt them. But we were looking on this website and we found a few different sibling sets and other children who were available for adoption that we had been talking with our social worker. The next first step for us that seems to make sense is to move down this path of adoption; we still wanted to do foster care, but it wasn’t fair to a child in foster placement who was going to be reunified with their family, hopefully, that they would have all these expectations from us or from our community and whatnot. And literally, I kid you not, this is three weeks after that baby boy was placed with his aunt. We’ve gone through, made these decisions. We’re supposed to meet with our social worker to review this list of children that we’ve identified as ‘we’d like to learn more’ and possibly see if we would be a good fit for an as an adoptive family for them So, we’re scheduled to meet in the afternoon with our social worker. That morning we got a call from the placement worker about another five week old baby boy. She called me, [00:39:00] Heather was at work and I was available, and so I was like. I’m feeling like I’m gonna say yes to this, and that’s ridiculous. We are grieving so much right now, and my wife is going to be like, what is wrong with you? Why would you even say yes to this? And so I told the placement worker, I was like we’ll have to call you back, but I’ll let you know. So I called Heather and she said, are you gonna say I’m nuts if I wanna say yes to this that’s how I do discernment. God, you are present when I’m surprised and when everything kind of lines up the way that we think it should. And it felt like God was saying to me, you’re missing everything I have prepared you for a young child. Even when our first placement came the way that our friends filled in the gaps with here’s the crib here’s all the baby supplies that you need. ‘Cause we were ready for school age kids ‘cause that’s what they told us to be ready for. And so we had all these things for a baby and then we were looking [00:40:00] at older kids who needed a family. And then here comes this call for another five-week-old boy who today is our 6-year-old adopted son. And he’s awesome, like, just lots of surprises. But, the journey’s not straight. And I think the interaction of faith and the everyday parenting decisions and adult human decisions they go together. They go together in ways that require the tension of hope and sacrifice all in the same moment. Christina Gebel: Wow. I have so many faith parallels coming up, and I keep going back to your words, Patrick, about laying everything at the foot of the Cross. How many times you guys did that? Like having gone through everything you had with fertility biologically the uncertainty of [00:41:00] that and the non permanency of that process. You could have easily said, okay, we’re gonna go with a slam dunk path this next time around. But you kept laying yourselves at the foot of the cross. Patrick Curran: Oh, let’s be clear. I wanted the slam dunk. You wanted the slam dunk. Heather Curran: Like normal adoption paths… Patrick Curran: …Are not a slam, Heather Curran: ….Are not a slam dunk. True. And there’s, there isn’t a promise of permanence. And you can get so close and have these same experiences of so near to something… Patrick Curran: Yeah. Heather Curran: And then it’s not, and there is grief there. That path is not straight or easy either. And I see that in our friends that have taken that journey or reading different experiences. I think things come back to expectations and you create this expectations of what it’s gonna look like in your head or for me, like what will look like as parents and how people tell you’re to make a great [00:42:00] parent, then you have a child and your house and you are exhausted. So yeah, I think especially with that first placement Patrick shared, just there was such an emotional release of this has finally happened. After all of this time and talk and desire, we have this infant that we didn’t expect. What a beautiful gift. It’s Advent. People are excited and we’re trying to hold in our heads, this is foster care. This is not a straight path. We are holding this tightly but loosely. And at the same time, your mind still travels 30 years down the road. Yeah. And when that all shifted, it happened in a week. When family was identified, people were telling us they’re gonna have to do background checks and yeah, it’ll take four months, it’s gonna take months. And they identified this family on a [00:43:00] Thursday. I met them on the Friday. We were meeting to talk about relocation on Monday. It happened so fast, and I had whiplash. And when we initially met them, Patrick was out of town. And I knew in that meeting again, it was like when we were in the the ultrasound I knew as soon as they were in the room, this was not gonna go the way that my heart had anticipated. And I knew that wasn’t the wrong thing for the child. It just wasn’t what I had hoped for or wanted. And those feelings. Again, hard to manage ‘cause you want to be grateful for the gift and the reality of what that meant for him. And then thinking about having to share this with all of the people that have been so excited for us. And those people have all still [00:44:00] been present through everything and wonderful. When we decided to do foster care, I realize now that we made that decision not only for us, but for all the people around us and for our parents, for our siblings and their kids. They are a part of this journey and they are riding these waves with us also. And I have been buoyed by their resilience in these times and their ability to support us in their own grief. And even the preschool teachers where our kids go are like, you are setting an example of love and spiritual journeying that is good for our community. And in that coming and going and saying goodbye, that is our spiritual faith. There’s many times where I think it’s not fair to do this to the people around [00:45:00] us, but the reality is that this is life and we are allowing people to journey it with us and they are supporting us. It’s mutual. And that’s not a bad thing. And to be grateful for taking those steps together and to have those people with us present and witnessing and caring for us in those times, Patrick Curran: We believe in the God of the Ordinary. I think what’s coming up for me right now, Christina, I’m looking at the questions that you had sent us earlier and this idea of radical and radical family. Again, I don’t know that I would consider what we do radical, but in the world of Ignatian discernment, I think part of, what Ignatius’s gift to the Church was challenging us and inviting us to reflect on where do our own attachments keep us from God? And I think in this journey we are continuously challenged to [00:46:00] recognize what are the things that we are holding onto. What are the things that God is inviting us to and when are those things not the same thing? And so like Heather said, how do we hold on tightly but loosely and then have the freedom, have the faith to let go? I was talking with a friend of ours earlier, I don’t know if this is true or not, so somebody can fact check it, but he was thinking that the word radical shares a root with the word “rooted.” And when I think about how we were able to make those decisions, it comes back to being rooted in our faith tradition in our families who nurtured that faith tradition in our community. Where we live, breathe, and express that faith. And ultimately in our individual relationships Yes, I have a [00:47:00] relationship with Jesus Christ, and I love him, and I’m very mad at him frequently, and I don’t know what He thinks of me all the time because I don’t hear enough when He says, I love you, right? And as a father, that’s the message I want my son to hear. As a foster parent, you have to be rooted in that kind of radical love, to have a kid in your home who is gonna need you in ways that you can’t imagine. Again, I’m not sure it’s different from the way any other true parent parents their child, but if there’s anything radical about it today, it’s that our American culture, the society that we live in, even the broken, polarized Church that we live in, I don’t think invites us to let go of our attachments. But instead, has this message of how you can have more of what you want, more of how things should be easy. More, more bigger [00:48:00] family. 37 kids started out as 36 and then it got to 37. And I think in our rootedness, ultimately, we’re hoping to find freedom. And it is a gift to be able to share that with the two children that have been entrusted to us. And we love them both radically, Christina Gebel: Whoever you spoke to, I wanna go back to that. Whoever you spoke to was correct in their interpretation of radical and rooted, and I talk a lot about this in the teaser for the season. That radical came to me in a homily by one of my favorite priests in Boston. He was talking about we need to be radical. And, for me, I’m like, yeah, radical, progressive chain ourselves to the building or something, and he was talking about how there’s this interesting play on the word here and that’s how we usually use [the word] radical colloquially, but radical, which also I think of [00:49:00] radish, which grows in the soil, is really actually to get to the root of something. And he talked about when you actually get to the root of Christianity, Jesus, our Lord and Savior, Christianity is actually quite radical. So there’s almost this circular logic there in that, really, if we really sat down and really spelled out what it means to be a Christian in our modern world, and you put flesh on those bones, Patrick, when you said to not have everything fall into place, like we expect so much of our lives to do in the modern sense is quite radical. That’s what’s also coming up for me as y’all are talking. You mentioned earlier in the conversation, a lot of people come to foster care, through the sense of need. And I think on a cognitive level, especially for people who are committed to social justice, like that’s very [00:50:00] clear, and that might be the doorway that people enter through, right? That might be what the whisper is, but whether or not it’s a call. And a call takes you through all the ups and downs and joys and challenges that you’ve shown us so beautifully in this conversation. That sense of call I’m getting from you the roots were very deep. They were like intergenerational roots. You spoke so beautifully about your families. It’s like the roots were there back then… Patrick Curran: And I didn’t even mention, I have adopted cousins that I didn’t even know were adopted. And not because it was a secret, but simply because the way that our family has loved them over years and yeah, roots. Lots of roots. Christina Gebel: So, I know we’re winding down our conversation, which means we’re saving all the best wisdom for last. This last question is, if you [00:51:00] were to encounter someone who’s just starting to think about this path, obviously there’s a lot of, a lot of information out there, a lot of good people, good trainers out there and people in your parish and there’s a lot of that. But what I’m hoping you can answer is what are some things that you would suggest praying about spiritually as you approach this path? What are some of the spiritual questions or even just a framework? Or a mosaic of discernment for somebody who’s about to seriously consider this, and people discern in so many different ways. Just you both, the sheep, the cliff, I’m somewhere in, I’m somewhere in between those, and I’m not sure which when I am, there’s gonna be some cliff people out there listening and there’s gonna be some sheep people out there listening, so I’d love to hear from each of you in your own unique flavor of discernment, [00:52:00] what spiritual things would you point them to? Heather Curran: I don’t know about spiritual things, and maybe I’m just discounting the spirituality of my thoughts right now. But there are some very practical things that I have encountered in conversations with people. And their understanding of foster care that you have to think about before you jump into the process or discern. And one is your own biases. What are the things that you believe about foster care, children in foster care, parents of children in foster care, and the reality about reunification? I think people tend to…They hear that, but even for us, I think in the beginning we are hearing it. We were committed to it. But we had a need for permanence. And that time between the first [00:53:00] time we took the class and the second time we went in and actually got our license, I think it took all of that time for us to get into a place where we had processed our grief, about our ability to have biological children, and we’re actually in a place where we could receive a child that may or may not stay with us. And then the reality of that actually happening is a whole nother level. And if you are coming into this because you have a desire for children that hasn’t been met because of infertility or whatever, you do have to process that before you come into it because it is not fair for the child you receive to receive all of that emotional desire. The other piece is for me, what has become very apparent and important and I struggle with is biological families are important and we [00:54:00] do have to engage them. And it is because that’s the best thing for the child. There is also making sure that there are boundaries in place to keep your child safe and being open and aware of the realities that are happening. It’s multilayered, there’s lots of things going on, but I very often encounter people who say, I would love to do foster care, but I hear that you have to interact with their families. And I just can’t do that. Or the idea of them going back I just can’t do that. And this is where, for me, the realities of our Gospel and our faith and the ideas of forgiveness and openness and caring for others where the rubber really hits the road. If I believe in those things, this is where I need to put that into action for my child. And it’s hard. [00:55:00] It’s really hard. When I went into this, I think I had all these visions of worst case scenarios and how hard it was gonna be to deal with families and how difficult visitations would be and how they were gonna treat me and just being worried and concerned about that. And we’ve had some really great scenarios, and I’ve been very surprised. And we also need to stay aware and wise and create boundaries, but it has been beneficial to our children to know their families, to understand where they come from. I am in contact with my daughter’s grandmother on a weekly basis, and she is loving and wonderful and sends gifts to both of our children. That is where our family is growing and it has been a gift. And I see people very resistant and [00:56:00] afraid of that. And if this is a direction you’re going to go, you really need to grapple with how are you going to be open to those connections, and what is it that you are going to bring to those relationships? It’s not just the child. The child is coming with a whole set of people. I do not do that perfectly. I have a lot of opportunity for growth, and I want people coming into foster care to be really open to the potential of those relationships and their benefit to their child, but also their benefit to them. And God is good and relationships can be healing if we allow them to be. It’s another place where you have to hold all the tensions. Christina Gebel: Those are great ideas. I think that [00:57:00] piece is really important I haven’t heard that highlighted as often as probably it should be. Yeah. Patrick, what are you thinking in terms of practical or spiritual things you might offer someone at the beginning stages of this path? Patrick Curran: Sure. First I want to underscore. Plus one and give credit where credit is due to what Heather just said. You made the statement that you struggle with this. The reality is that we have relationships with our children’s birth families because Heather has taken that up. And our path through foster care to adoption for them has been made smooth because you leaned into those relationships. I think I’ve also taken for granted how much people don’t talk about that. And what I would add on the spiritual side, and if you’re discerning that is we are people who place a very high value on community. And so it has [00:58:00] actually been a struggle for us to try to balance our own family needs with their family needs and holding in a place of importance, what we believe will be good for them in the long run, which is having those ties back to their birth families and the days that they have questions about their identity and what is that gonna mean. And then everything that Heather said about this gets to the heart of the Gospel. What do we believe about redemption and God’s action for humans, and foster care is a world filled with broken people. So, I think my own set of what would I be discerning about at the beginning of this, first and foremost, as much as you can get your own house in order. And I think what I mean by that is try to get clear on why do I feel motivated or called to do this. What are the [00:59:00] things that are moving in me or around me? And many people come to foster care because they are a kinship placement for someone in need in their biological family. So, it’s not something that they’re desiring or looking out for, but they courageously said yes. And that’s its own kind of faith. And so I think at the beginning, if it is something that you’re thinking about, get clear on why and bring that to prayer and ask God to help you know yourself. Heather Curran: Yeah. Patrick Curran: And to know where is the Spirit moving in you? I would also say for the folks who are planners and like to be very prepared they’re now deciding I will get my house in order to be a good foster parent. There’s no such thing in foster care, right? And so I think one of the very practical things to discern and begin to plan for is how will you navigate the unplanned? How can you be more flexible in your life? Where is God [01:00:00] inviting you to do something that’s outside of your comfort zone that you otherwise might never do? And do you have time to reflect on that and find the grace in those things? And I, for some reason as Heather was talking, the Scripture coming into my head is the, the story of Ruth, right? “Your people will be my people and your God will be my God.” (Ruth 1:16) When you bring a foster child into your home, they need from you and you need from them, and you have to be able to elevate their needs. And so you can’t plan for that. You can’t predict it. Things come out of nowhere all the time. I think there’s a lot of very practical things that any good foster training program will help you think about. I think maybe another thing was just what is your experience with trauma and what kind of training do you have or would you be willing to get around supporting people that have traumatic experience? And there’s a lot to that. Christina Gebel: Great things there to [01:01:00] look into and every time we come to a close in this conversation, and the other ones I’ve had I’m envisioning people out there listening to this and just thinking like, there’s gonna be a spark in someone somewhere, or maybe it’s gonna fan the flame of something the Spirit is putting on someone’s heart. And even if somebody wasn’t, completely, ready to discern this issue, there were so many gems here just about faith and discernment that I think there’s gonna be a plethora of sparks that are lit by this conversation. And I just wanna thank you both so much. I have endless gratitude for this conversation for you as friends, for you as parents, for you as fellow Catholics. I just wanna say thank you because this [01:02:00] conversation…the Spirit’s gonna take it to places that I feel in my heart we can’t even imagine. So thank you. Heather Curran: Thank you, Christina, for doing this podcast and opening the door for these conversations for other people to hear them and add them to their discernment and their contemplation. And you have a lot of depth to you, your questions and your seeking and your spiritual life, and it’s a gift to the people around you. Christina Gebel: All right. With that, the Curran family, Patrick Curran: Yeah, thank you, Christina. Yeah, what a joy to talk with you today. This is a public episode. If you would like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit christinagebel.substack.com [https://christinagebel.substack.com?utm_medium=podcast&utm_campaign=CTA_1]

Episode 9: Living in Intentional Community

Christina Gebel: [00:00:00] Welcome to the Moderate Catholic, where we discuss topics that deepen faith and inspire action. I am your host, Christina Gebel, and this is Episode 9: Living in Intentional Community with Others. So welcome, everyone. This is our inaugural episode of Season Two on the Moderate Catholic. We have wrapped up Season One, and we are now moving on to Season Two. And I teased the topic a little bit earlier, but it is radical family, and the topic, radical family, is about families making bold choices to live out their faith. And I’m so excited to kick off this season with four very dear friends of mine whom I met at a stage in my life and continue to be inspired by. And they’re going to talk to us today about what it means to live in intentional community with others. So, with [00:01:00] that, let’s get right down to it. My dear friend Jonathan will introduce himself and his wife, and then we’ll pass it to Carla. Jonathan Wittig: Good morning. Thanks for having us here. I’m Jonathan, and this is my wife, Lisa. And we have three children: Caroline, who’s 11, Ben, who’s nine, and Katherine, who’s seven. We were longtime Chicagoans and are now new residents in Minnesota in the past couple of years. So, I’m excited to be here today. Carla Lents: Hello. Thanks, Christina. We are Ryan and Carla; we actually grew up together in Indiana and then moved to Chicago and have lived here for over 20 years. We have two sons, Caleb, who is 15, and Micah, who’s 10. Yeah, really excited to be here and talk about this. Christina Gebel: I am really excited to have you here. So, the reason that I know these folks, these awesome folks, is through a program that I continue to hold near and dear to my heart, which is Amate House program in Chicago. It’s a [00:02:00] faith-based service program where folks who graduate college can decide to dedicate a year or more as a fellow in service at a job in Chicago. And I was blessed to do that between the years 2007–2009, and that’s how I got to know Lisa as one of my house coordinators and eventually Ryan came on as program staff. I’m really glad that our faith connected us in this way, and what a better launching pad to discuss the topic of living in community. So, the first thing we’re gonna talk about is just how y’all came together. How did you get to know each other? What time period in your life? What were you doing? Enlighten us into how this all came to be. Lisa Wittig: Yeah. So, as Christina mentioned, I was working at Amate House back in 2007 when she was a fellow with the program. I had recently graduated from the program myself as a volunteer. That’s actually where Jonathan and I met. We both volunteered [00:03:00] together for a year, and I was working at Amate House. And then a few years into that, there was a staff transition. Ryan actually came on staff and started working at Amate House. We were in the same role, working with the program, supporting the volunteers. Ryan quickly became a good friend, and Jonathan and I met Carla and hung out with Ryan and Carla a few times. And at one point, Ryan came to me, and he had this crazy idea. Would you be interested in living in intentional community again? Certainly, a unique situation because we were married, and Ryan, I believe at that time, you had Caleb, who was a baby. And so just thinking about that idea, I was like, oh my gosh, you’re crazy. I wasn’t completely opposed to it, but I was like, you know who you should talk to? Jonathan has actually mentioned this before in our relationship to me as something he is interested in, and he’s also the dreamer and the doer in our relationship, and I am like the planner and executor, so I was like, Ryan, you need to connect with Jonathan. You two need to talk because I don’t think I’m the one to carry this dream to fruition, but it sounds exciting. Ryan Lents: Maybe I can pick up from there. I would say, for me, I think part of the curiosity of this was that a big part of our role at Amate House, Lisa and I, was being these house coordinators, and so it’s a very unique role. It’s like being a campus minister and an RA, although we didn’t live with the fellows. But we were a primary point of contact for them and would do things like office hours, community nights, retreats. So, we really accompanied them throughout their experience, and I would say vicariously lived through their experience of community, all the ups and downs. And it made it very rewarding and very challenging, and as Lisa mentioned, we had transitioned from a life stage of being right out of college where we had lived in community. I had not done Amate House as a fellow. I had been at a different program called Nazareth Farm in West Virginia, and that was a deeply formative time in my life. And I would also say I was pretty immature. There were a lot of things I needed to learn about life and about living with other people and about just how to grow up, and community was so deeply shaping in that way. I came to really realize how much I had missed it by being in this role where I was walking with people that were experiencing those ups and downs. Initially, I thought this is just something that you do when you’re not tethered to marriage and children and mortgages and things, but then I interrupted that presumption and said, what would it look like to actually go on this type of journey? And to think about this stage of life. And so that was the launching point of some conversations with Jonathan. We became fast friends, bonded around a lot of things that we had common interests around, but I think that idea of saying, hey, what would it look like for us to discern together and to think about how we could live out our faiths and our commitments as husbands, as wives, as friends in this unique stage of life as we’re starting family where there are a lot of just really big pressures and challenges and difficulties. It’s hard to live in the modern world. There can be a lot of really unhealthy messages that we get about individualism and doing things on our own. I got those messages really loud as a twenty-two, twenty-three-year-old. And those messages are just as powerful when you’re twenty-eight, twenty-nine, especially as you’re thinking about some of the real adult things that come on at that stage of life. I think we found a lot of common challenges and ideas that really started to make this thing seem like it could be real. Jonathan Wittig: Yeah. Just adding on to that, when I was in college, I was involved with a lot of intentionality within the campus ministry department at my university. And so, my roommates and I would try to live out community together in our own ways, even counting the toilet paper squares to see how much of stewardship we were living out on a day-to-day basis. A little crazy. But my year of Amate House was a challenging year where our sense of community was difficult. The service in the community was wonderful. Amate as a whole was wonderful, but I had a very [00:07:00] challenging year. But the concept of community living—I believed in it strongly. My simple explanation is Jesus lived in community. He was with these other guys, and they just went around together. And I’m sure that some of the disciples were frustrating to live with on a day-to-day basis. But they found the goodness in it. And they probably rose higher from the challenges that they faced on a day-to-day basis. And that’s how I hold community living, even when we chose to do it, or even in college or in Amate House, like there were a lot of hard days. But I think that those, like, you learned patience, and you learned kindness, and you learned self-reflection. And you hopefully are growing and not just so self-involved all the time. And I share that perspective with Ryan. I think that’s one of the many challenges we face right now in our common societies, that we’re all kind of self-involved in. But yeah, that made me want to continue to live this beyond this ate volunteer year because it makes total sense. I wanted to be able to have that community as we raise our kids. And there’s more to that, but I’ll share that [00:08:00] later. Christina Gebel: Yeah, so I really love what you all have been saying, and Ryan, I was like, you and I did Amate House. I can relate to thinking like this is something you do in your mid-twenties, and then you do other things and include other people and even little people and bills and all that stuff. And as we were talking, I’m realizing that we were kicking around this phrase “intentional community,” and the five of us have an idea of what that is, but to anybody new to the concept, maybe just a few reflections from you all on how you would define that. We use this phrase, “intentional community,” in conversation, but what is it? And in this pre-decision period of making the bold choice, how were you thinking about that? What kind of values were coming up for you? Ryan Lents: Yeah, that’s a great question. I think that phrase, “intentional,” is really important because I think with so many things in life, we can have a lot of hopes and dreams for things. But for me, the piece about intentional is, what are the routinized kind of ongoing daily practices that reflect a commitment? And I think the same is true in marriage. It’s like you could talk about intentional marriage. Just because you make a commitment on one day doesn’t mean that on day 1725, that it’s gonna be as easy. It takes an intentional effort and commitment to say, yes, today I will love my spouse and animate those commitments that we made on the day that we exchanged rings. I think the same is true in community. Our experience was one of a lot of active discernment where we would do a good job of framing big questions that we were living into with our lives. We didn’t just say yes one day and then cut a check for a deposit for the house that we ended up living in for two years. We actually spent a whole year meeting on an ongoing basis. I think at one point we were meeting every two weeks. Part of that was just to build relationships together. The four of us had come to become good friends, but there are different conversations you have when you’re going out for pizza and beer versus, hey, what would it look like to share a mortgage together or share the cost of groceries or cook meals and that sort of thing. We really went through a whole process of asking questions like, what kind of living arrangement would we want? We had a chance to visit a community of two families that were living together where they had a two flat. So, they actually had two separate spaces, but then they made active efforts to do meals together or have hospitality. We talked about what would a commitment to cooking meals together look like. How do we want to commingle resources around finances and things like that? We realized that there were so many of those questions, then begat like a lot of other questions and this is where it was helpful, where we had a good mix of gifts. We had high level thinking of what we’d like this to do, how might some of these things be a reflection of our values? And then to Lisa’s point around logistics, like how are we gonna keep track of things? How are we gonna balance a checkbook? How are we gonna keep track of receipts? How are we going to make sure that we are following through with things? And so, it took a mixture of our collective gifts to really sort that out. Lisa Wittig: Yeah, and another like important piece of intentional community is really understanding what it means to be intentional. Working at Amate House and certainly many of us having lived in community before, had a little bit of a basis of understanding of what it means to be intentional when you’re living with a group of people. But I think it’s not like we’re just choosing our best friends and living in an apartment together for a couple years and taking turns making dinner and hanging out at night, playing games. That did happen and that was one of the great parts of living in community with the Lenz family. But also, it was about living with people who you would maybe be irritated with or have a pet peeve that would rub you the wrong way. And then you were in a place where you had to make a decision, like, how am I gonna handle this feeling I’m currently having? Am I gonna [00:12:00] brush it off and ignore it? Is it something that I can ignore and it won’t be an issue? Or is it something that’s gonna fester and get harder and harder? And Carla, I don’t know for you, like, where your head space was going into it. You all had a child. We went into it as just a couple. We didn’t have children yet, but, like, knowing when you become a parent, like you are now, you have so much more to consider in your decisions, in how you wanna be intentional, especially in raising a child. For me, trying to be really intentional about how we were approaching relationships and what decisions we were making was a really important piece of it. But I don’t know, in parenting, if you feel like when you came into it, you had that whole extra thing to consider in terms of what it meant to bring your child into a house with these other people. Carla Lents: Yeah, when I think back at the discerning time, that was the thing that loomed largest in my mind the whole time, like, do I feel comfortable moving into a place with my child and these people? It was like this balance [00:13:00] of having the values conversation—what are our shared values? —then also the nitty-gritty of all the finances and the day-to-day stuff. We spent almost a year meeting together, talking about these things. So, by the time we were getting to the point where we were making the decision and saying, yeah, let’s figure out where we can live together, I actually felt pretty comfortable with it. People have talked about this idea of naivete of moving into an intentional community and learning what the word “intentional” means as you’re living that out. And that was really the case for me because I had not lived in community prior to this experience. I had lived with roommates and things like that, but it was not a community situation. I think there was a big learning curve for me personally, in terms of what that meant, but also, as Lisa alluded to, I didn’t really know what—I didn’t know about what parenting in front of other people would be like. Also, I had one child, and so everything [00:14:00] that we were encountering with our child was new to us as we were going along. So, we were just like, okay, I don’t know if this is normal in front of these other people or anything like that. It was very raw and real that first year. Ryan Lents: Just saying what most parents know, right, is that the first child is the test child. So, like, for better or for worse, we were able to figure a lot of stuff out with us. Carla Lents: Yeah, it was also a very grace-filled time in that I think hopefully Lisa and Jonathan benefited from seeing us fumbling through dealing with a toddler once we moved in together. I know it was very grace-filled for us to at least talk about, like hanging out together and stuff. But one of the most amazing things of having a young child in community was, like, you put them to bed and then you can be like, “Hey, we’re gonna go for a walk.” And there’s people in the house. That’s not a thing that, like the majority of parents who live in a single-family [00:15:00] home and have little kids, you’re, like, stuck. That was just one little thing that I remember as being, like, amazing. Jonathan Wittig: I just wanted to jump in on some of the pre-decision formation that I recall. And even if you meet for a year, you can’t go through every scenario and answer every question. And so, there’s stuff you’re gonna realize the first day, the first week, first month, first year that you’re living in a community that you just couldn’t have planned for. And so, one of the things that I always think of our formation period was being very intentional about, what do we do when we come upon conflict? And just thinking it through, we don’t have to know the answer. Let’s figure out the method by which we’re gonna approach this. So, we can all feel heard and respected and hopefully find a good resolution. I think that was a critical part of our formation, just figuring that out. And then likewise, on the joyful side, if we want to bring something forward, what’s our approach for doing that? We had monthly meetings that were focused in terms of planning and stuff like that. And then I won’t say we had weekly prayer that would be a space for kind of connection. And then [00:16:00] there’s probably space in between for how we bring up new ideas and we can talk through those. And so, there are different spaces for each of those. We could figure out those ideas together. I think that was critical for having a sustainable community. Christina Gebel: Wow, there’s so many gems coming up. Like, my mind is buzzing with all of the things that y’all just said. What a beautiful way to reflect on all of it. And Carla, I was really struck by what you said. Bringing parenting into this, the first child, the quote, unquote, test child. And I’m assuming that child turned out really well if I know you two. So, it’s just special. What a unique coming together at that moment. And you’ve been talking really beautifully about just the balance between values and logistics and what stood out to you as concerns, and what were some of the things that you thought might happen and how to anticipate [00:17:00] those. At what point did you feel like a decision had been made? Did y’all set, like, that one-year timeframe, or did the spirit come down and tell you, “Hey, it’s time?” How did y’all arrive at the actual decision point and to use parenting language, did you have any big feelings about that as you went in? Carla Lents: My memory of, I think it was in the springtime or, like, late winter after we had been meeting for several months, I remember someone asking the question at one of our gatherings and just said, “All right, we’ve been talking about this for a while now. Are we ready to take the next step?” I think there was definitely a consensus around, “Yeah, let’s do this. Let’s try it out.” We stepped into it, but we still left our outs. We didn’t sell our condos. We were renting. We had a one-year rental lease of the place we were gonna live in together. It was like, “We’re gonna try this for a year and see how it goes.” And so, it felt like a natural and appropriately sized step to start trying things out. It didn’t feel like, “Oh, we’re getting married right now.” It felt like this is just a natural step forward. My memory of it was like kind of excitement, the feeling that I remember. Ryan Lents: Yeah, once we, I think, found that there was a lot of alignment around some of the big things that we were discussing, it was like, “Okay, we can admire this from a distance for a while, but what would it look like to actually start to work towards a plan?” And so, as we started to zero in on neighborhoods that might make sense, I think that was part of the challenges. Geographically, we were pretty far-flung when it came to our jobs, and then adding in childcare, where Caleb was going during the week, there was no one place that checked all the boxes, and we were sensitive to wanting to be in a place where we felt like we could thrive in community. We wanted to make sure it wasn’t a place where gentrification was going crazy, and we wanted it to be a place that we felt like, yeah, we could really live this out. That ended up being uptown for us. We ended up renting there for two years, and yeah, it was a house that really worked great, I think, as we were getting started for this kind of experiment that we had entered into. Christina Gebel: Awesome. And y’all have touched on this in your different responses and even bringing up, “Hey, Jesus lived in community,” but even with Jesus’ kind of being the example with his 12 disciples, a lot of people still don’t make this decision. So, I’m curious, what was it about your faith that spoke to you and really was the underpinning of making this choice? Ryan Lents: Yeah, so I think all of us had been formed in Catholic social teaching in some way, shape, or form. I think as we were talking about it, I see Catholic social teaching as ways that we actually make the kind of big idea of faith like practical and real. Like what are the commitments? What are the things that we actually walk in our daily practice that reflect that faith in Jesus? I think that it was a way for us to put our values into action together. There’s lots of ways that you can live your life, but I think, for example, as we were starting to surface some of the values that were important to us, we named things like sustainability. We wanted to make sure that we were being responsible with the resources that we had, a lot of things around stewardship and connectedness. Jonathan pointed to simplicity. What were ways that we could be, yeah, just be more responsible with resources? We were all Catholic, all of us came from a Catholic background and perspective, but we talked about how we didn’t necessarily want to be exclusive in that way. If there were other people who were to come into our orbit who would want to join us, we wanted to figure out a way that would necessarily be a prerequisite. And that ended up being helpful, especially as we offered hospitality, which was another big value. One of the things I remember most about our first two years is we had this incredible first floor that was great for hosting people. And so, there were these meals and dinners that we would host, where at times we would have over 30 people in the house, and it would be like a potluck, and it would just be this beautiful place to start the evening in prayer, but really just to encounter one another. And many were neighbors. Some were folks that we had met through other circles. And it was just a really beautiful way to put that into practice. For the first two years, we also lived with somebody that Jonathan had met at Loyola who had a real devotion to a monastic kind of tradition. And so, for him, morning prayer was really important. That was something that I remember from my experience at Nazareth Farm. We struggled with that a little bit; the 6:00 AM or 6:30 AM start, whatever it was, became a little bit more difficult. So that was a place we struggled a little bit; we all valued this practice of prayer, but in terms of making that a tangible commitment, that was one that we had to do a little bit of testing around. We did a few in-house retreats during our time together that were powerful; we would either be self-directed or find something that we could go to together and then discuss. I think that we were trying to be active and accompanying one another in our own faith journeys at various points. Jonathan Wittig: I would say also at this stage of our lives, we were younger and eager and searching and trying to live out our faith without as many distractions as there are now at this stage of life. And having other people who live out their faith in different ways was so empowering, like, oh, I’m gonna sit down and meditate. Do you wanna join me? And I wasn’t thinking of doing that, but sure, I guess I will, or all of us worked in some type of service-focused job, or we were involved in some way in the community, so there were just a lot of opportunities to push ourselves in a positive way that came organically from living together. And it paid a lot of dividends to our children. Ryan’s a talented guitarist. And we would do worship sometimes in the house, and Ryan would just jam, and I can’t play anything. And so, it was great for my kids to see that and just be exposed to that, and Carla was just very artsy, and our youngest kid, that’s all she does. And I don’t know, I like to believe that Carla had an impact on her. And so that exposure is one of the many joys that I had from community. But the faith component of that is something I wanted at that time, and it was definitely a major benefit from living together. Lisa Wittig: I would say too that spontaneous exposure was definitely a huge benefit and something we valued and appreciated. But I also want to say that another piece of that intentional community aspect is the accountability piece, where it was great to have exposure to new and different things so that we could learn and grow ourselves. But also, just being with other people all the time is a form of accountability that not everyone experiences in that kind of intentional way. And so I think that was another piece of it that was really helpful to us in this very formative part of our lives, where we could say faith was important to us, or that stewardship or simplicity was important to us, but we actually had [00:24:00] these four other adults that we were living with that were like, “Oh, now I gotta prove to them that it’s important to me, I gotta walk the walk,” which is an important piece of growing. I really value having that kind of accountability that we provided to each other. Christina Gebel: Yeah. What better way to practice accountability than to live with other people? That’s such a key point. It’s not only about your inward actions, but also about your communal actions, and those actions are in, of, and around each other. I loved the piece about sustainability because that’s something I think a lot about too, and just how we are on autopilot in the US. We’re all kind of living in our respective dwellings, and maybe there are intergenerational households, but we all have, you know, a kitchen mixer, or there’s a proliferation of things [00:25:00], and to really be intentional is counter-cultural in that sense. So I’m very curious as to what people in your lives thought about these decisions—loved ones, friends, random people next door to you, whoever was observing, because, as you were saying, this is more than roommates, and I’m wondering what the people around you thought and how you explained to them that this is more than just living together or simply living together with roommates. Lisa Wittig: Yeah, such a great question. We had the benefit of coming from social circles in Chicago that had heard of or seen or even experienced intentional community, so that certainly made it a little easier in some instances to explain or to share about. Although even people who had lived in intentional community before were like, “Wait, you’re gonna do this with children? Are you crazy?” Or like with a husband or [00:26:00] with a partner. It was definitely a shock to a lot of people, like when I think about explaining it to my family in another state who had never really had that kind of exposure to the idea before. I remember having to talk them through it and explain it. And like with my family, I was like, “It’s like roommates. We’re just gonna be living with roommates.” I got to the point where they couldn’t exactly understand it, and so I had to just default to that. But I definitely remember trying to be like, “Look, here are the good things about it. We don’t have to buy as many things because now, we’re in a house with people who have some of those things. I only have to do half the chores because we can split up chores among four adults.” For my family and my side of it, who hadn’t really been exposed to those ideas, it was a little easier to default to the more simplistic ideas behind it, because they just didn’t quite grasp or understand what it meant to do something that was this spiritually challenging or emotionally investing. It was just such a farfetched and new idea to my family. Jonathan Wittig: For me, my family is a little bit more understanding. Three of my siblings had done volunteer programs, and so they lived in community, and so they at least understood the concept as adults. They were like, that’s cool. I would never do that, kind of thing. I think that was a common reaction. My parents were very excited and supportive, and that was good for me. Carla Lents: It’s funny, I can’t remember in the beginning how we explained this to people. I think what Lisa said, around people can understand the economic benefits very easily, so if you lead with that, then they’re like, oh yeah. So, anything that’s weird, you’re just gonna put up with, because you’re getting so many economic, I think that’s the language that our society kind of understands. The countercultural aspect of it, people just shrug off. They’re like, that’s good for you. I know now in hindsight, our parents, really, over the years as they interacted with us and came to visit and got to know Lisa and Jonathan and the kids, just experiencing it and seeing how it was different. So, I think there’s that. As you explain it to people in your life, then you start hearing about other people, oh, I know somebody else who does that. I feel like we did get connected to a few other intentional communities in the Chicago area where people that we knew who knew someone else and that sort of thing. Ryan Lents: I think, yeah, with my parents there was this, oh, that’s nice. And there was this, I don’t understand it. I just think about how the last couple of generations before our generation, there was such an investment in independence. Those were the first generations where you saw this widespread phenomenon of people moving across the country. A lot of that was seen as economic mobility and independence, and it was often lauded as this like thing of progress, but there was a lot that was given up in that process, right? Like, I think about how for most of human history, families lived intergenerationally together. Part of it was an economic necessity, but there was a lot of bonding and mutual support that was just part of that deal that became very easy to see as replaceable, and so I think in this time where we are experiencing so much loneliness and isolation, for many people as they really start to think of it, they would maybe say, yeah, I like having my own space, or I like having my own privacy. And I would say, yeah, like there are things you give up, right? Like you don’t get to just pretend like you have the whole house to yourself, but then I would quickly name off eight things—here are all the things that we gain that make life meaningful and rich and supportive. Those are things that are hard to quantify, but they make life so much more livable, and what can be a really hard time to live in these days, most people, I think at least, even if they said, I could never see myself doing that, most people we encountered were able to be like, oh, okay, I can understand. Lisa Wittig: Yeah, and just to put an example to what Ryan was just saying about the benefits, I sometimes think about the COVID times, and I reflect on that time as literally like maybe the best three months of my life. Some of my favorite memories come from those, like that March through June. Society across the world was just sheltered off from everybody in their lives, and us included. But because we lived in community, we had this built-in support and trust and emotional stability for each other where we were able to say, all right, this is a weird, strange, difficult thing that’s happening, but let’s make the most of it. There’s so many memories I have from that time period I just think about and laugh and smile because we had such an amazing benefit of being together and being able to support each other during that time that a lot of other people didn’t have. Christina Gebel: Yeah, that’s such a great point about COVID, and talk about two unique situations, COVID-19 and living together. What an interesting time to be in intentional community, and my heart just warmed up when you said those were some of your best memories. We all who were more isolated at the time started to miss that connection, and you had that really built into your life. And I’m gonna insert a little curious question here. Y’all have talked about receiving the thoughts and reactions about what you did from people, saying, “Great, or that’s great for you and not me.” And when I’ve talked about this, even when I’ve talked about you to other people, because again, you really are my heroes in this, a lot of people have said, “I could never do that because I’m an introvert,” or “I could not do that because I need privacy.” And the people in my life who I think I would want to do that with are probably smiling, because I have some dear loved ones with some strong introvert energy in my life, whereas for me, it’s like, oh my gosh, I get to be around my friends all day. This is great. I could go on in perpetuity, obviously with challenges, of course. Did any of you have that concern around introversion or even privacy? Did you encounter that? Lisa Wittig: I don’t know. I’m introverted, and I loved it because as a parent, you have certain obligations to ensure that your children stay alive, and in order to do that, you need to be present. But when you have other adults in the house, okay, now I get to go for a walk because I have three other people that are here and can make sure the children stay alive. I don’t know. I don’t think that argument stands very well because I feel like I was given a lot of opportunities to be introverted in that communal space. Jonathan Wittig: I think it strengthened our marriage because, as we were still young in our marriage, we were trying to navigate differences in how we communicate, which we’re still doing. So, I think it’ll be a lifelong journey, but I was able to seek Ryan or Carla or Tony for different needs, and I didn’t place all that on Lisa, which I think would’ve been what I would’ve done had we continued living together. So, it gave us more time to grow in our marriage together and navigate just these things that are difficult. I think that having those outlets probably freed Lisa up. I’m an extrovert, and I like to chitchat, and so I think it ultimately benefited us, I would say. Ryan Lents: Yeah, I think where I land on this is I, as I’ve gotten older, I think I come to appreciate introversion. Extroversion is not a binary for me, like going to a cocktail party where I have to do a lot of small talk and go up and introduce myself to people, I don’t know is like the worst thing I could ever imagine. When I have to do that for jobs or other things, I’m like, what’s the earliest I can leave, and I come home and I just want to be in a quiet room by myself, right? If you are in a dynamic where you’re with people who you have been vulnerable with and there’s like a mutual sense of trust, that’s a very different thing, and it can still hold intention, like with what Lisa said, like even in a nuclear family, you have to have boundaries. There are times that, yeah, I’m raw right now and in a bad mood, or I need some space, and those boundaries are important no matter what kind of arrangement you’re in. To be in a place where you can be radically loved and accepted for yourself, for all of your warts and shortcomings, and know that people are not gonna throw you away. Yeah, I hope everybody has an experience of that in their life, whether it’s intentional community or not. Like that’s, I think, a precious thing that we have the opportunity to cultivate together in community. Christina Gebel: Yeah, that’s incredible. We talk about spousal love as a type of radical love of accepting each other at all times—the good, the bad, the interesting—and to bring that type of love, which is, I think, the way God loves us, to bring that type into the fold with more people. I can’t say it enough that that choice is just so profound and interesting and really powerful in its vulnerability. Switching back to those early days, was there anything else you realized maybe once you had made the decision and were finally in it, that you might have overlooked or underestimated or overestimated, or just anything else from those early days of creating norms and habits and flow? Carla Lents: Caleb was two when we moved in together, and we were moving in with people who had never really lived with a toddler. I do remember feeling self-conscious about, like, how. He [00:36:00] was acting, even though he was just being a 2-year-old in general. But also, as we mentioned before, I didn’t know that. But there were a lot of graces, and I think people also recognized that this is what it is. We’re living together. That’s definitely something I remember. But also, in hindsight, you just recognize that that’s life, and he would’ve been a two-year-old wherever we had been living with him. I don’t know, Lisa and Jonathan’s memory of that early time, the first two months probably, of living with Caleb and what that was like. That was probably the biggest thing for me as we moved in together. It was like, okay, how do I manage this? Jonathan Wittig: I definitely watched a lot more Cars, the Pixar movie, than I ever would’ve watched on my own. That’s for sure. But I would give Caleb chocolates before bedtime as revenge, so it’s all good. No, I mean, I agree. I think the parenting aspect of community living was probably the hardest, just ‘cause we have different parenting styles and approaches. And so, like you, you see [00:37:00] something and you’re like, your judgmental side wants to come out, but I think that was part of what I liked about community, is the challenge of living community and just, okay. What am I feeling? Why am I feeling it? And how do I react to that feeling? And then that was an opportunity to grow or not to grow, depending on what we wanted to hold there. And I agree that it was challenging many times, but it was also like, I loved it. Like, I loved Caleb, and I loved hanging out with him, and I had the maturity of a 2-year-old sometimes, so it was perfect for me. I just wanted to play with him, and it was so much fun because I didn’t have any kids at the time, and I loved his energy. Lisa Wittig: Yeah, it was a bit of a parenting warmup for us, ‘cause we got to live with Caleb for a year before Caroline was born, and we got to see, like, the challenges that parents face in their home with their child, and start to fast forward our thinking to be like, oh, okay, like what are we gonna do when we’re parents? And oh man, they have to deal with this toddler throwing a tantrum right now. Let’s just go for a walk. And we still had the freedom to be like really appreciative of that freedom, so it was [00:38:00] nice to be able to have that exposure, have that learning, and be able to learn from the wise parents that Ryan and Carla were. Once our kids came along, there was a lot more that we were able to understand and knew a little bit better how to approach, ‘cause we had that early exposure. Christina Gebel: Did you ever, like when your kids came along, kind of eat the humble pie and say, oh, this is toddlerhood, or did you have any of those humble pie moments? Jonathan Wittig: It’s delicious pie. So, for sure. Lisa Wittig: Yeah. I’m sure there definitely were some of those moments, but I’m really grateful for the experience of being able to co-parent during that time because I feel like parenting can be really hard. Anyone who’s a parent knows the challenges that come along with it. And to be able to have that kind of support from people who are there in it with you who can see when you’re reaching your limit and maybe step in now that we’re just a single family, not living in intentional community anymore. If we have a night where I hit my limit and like just need to walk away and Jonathan’s doing something else, like the dishes don’t get done. They just are there for whenever we pull ourselves back together and can come back to the kitchen. But when we lived in a community, we had an amazing, like, dish fairy who would come in, and it would be something we wouldn’t have to worry about or a stress that wouldn’t be on us later because we were able to support each other in those times when things were really challenging and hard. It was great to have that support. Christina Gebel: Yes, definitely. Honestly, I think about my line of work being a doula and a childbirth educator. I’ve always felt that families that do the best in the postpartum period, especially with your first, are the ones who have a lot of support in close proximity. And something I’ve thought a lot about in our modern context was what you mentioned earlier: upward mobility is becoming synonymous. With [00:40:00] darting around the country and getting the next big job, that pushes you a little bit further and farther. And so, there’s this interesting time in humanity where grandparents aren’t always living down the street, and I support so many families who are trying to make it work. And maybe that means the grandparents make a move to where they are. Or you hire a postpartum doula to get through those really tough nights. The loneliness of those early days with your first, and you’re constantly questioning, “Am I doing this right?” Am I doing right by this child? Am I feeding them? Are they okay? Lisa, as you’re talking, I’m thinking what a gift it is to have had another mom so close to you who can tell you, Hey, you’re doing good. Maybe try this and try that. Like to me, that is so crucial. If we are going to stay in this being, we are in different places from our immediate families. The village that we had in maybe the first part of our lives lives a lot farther away than maybe we thought it might. I like this phrase that I saw on a meme, like you can build the village, but you still have to be the villager. You know, you can have people around, but people still have to show up and do things amid their own stuff. Living in a community, the village is really proximal during that vulnerable time. Carla Lents: Thinking back like I had my first child when we were just living on our own. And then our younger child was born while we were in community. We also had some pretty difficult like medical issues with the second child. And yet thinking back to my mental health through both of those experiences, first child, no matter what happens medically or anything, it’s a big transition. Your brain is totally changing and all that. But I think back to [00:42:00] my mental health space in both of those experiences, and it was like, hands down much better the second time. There were challenges with both maternity leave times. The first biggest challenge for me was loneliness because I went from working full-time to just hanging out in a little apartment in December in Chicago when it felt like it was dark all the time. And then, the first month with Micah, I talked about some health challenges, and basically, I was in, like, this breastfeeding/pumping cycle that felt never-ending and not getting a lot of sleep. Every time after I fed him, I just needed somebody to hold him, and I would just wander around and be like, “Who’s holding this baby?” And Lisa, 90% of the time, was like, I’ll hold that baby. And that was just amazing. I think Lisa and Micah have a little bit of a special bond from that early time, not even just the first month, but the first six months of his life, which is interesting ‘cause Micah is a personality that I would be like, “That personality [00:43:00] does not match with Lisa’s personality.” But yeah, just from that experience, she understands him and he understands her on a level, so that’s something that I think is like a little miracle from the whole experience. Lisa Wittig: Yeah. I think back to our nights, Carla, where we’d put the kids to bed and we would go watch Call the Midwife. Carla Lents: Yeah. Lisa Wittig: Very happy memory for me. Christina Gebel: Oh, I have so much love now that you brought in. Call the midwife to the conversation. I’m just effusive in my giddiness in this conversation. I love that you all had kids and still turned on. Call the midwife. That’s amazing. So, just sitting here listening to you talk about that, Carla, I’m thinking of so many moms that I’ve worked with who have felt similar and would love to have a loving person like Lisa say, Yes, give me the baby. That’s amazing. So, we talked a lot about the joys and challenges at some point, and eventually this all [00:44:00] came to an end, and I’m really curious about how it came to an end. And also, what it’s been like since. So maybe you could start by telling us how this came to a close. Jonathan Wittig: I’ll take responsibility for that one. Lisa and I enjoyed living and experiencing culture, and that was one of the things that united us in our relationship. And one of my desires, or our desires, was to live abroad with the children and expose them to another culture and to another language and be the minority in that space and feel the comfort and discomfort of that. We were living in a community, and we had bought a house together, and it was the perfect house for us. And we lived there for five years. But we all stayed roughly the same size, but the kids kept getting bigger. And we were approaching the end of life for that house. We probably could have gone another year or two. We were approaching a space where we had to make the decision. And that plus the urge of desiring to live abroad was something that I was like, oh, maybe this is the time. We ultimately made that decision in concert with Ryan and Carla, and they were supportive of that. And so that’s what kind of ended that time there. In terms of how I feel now, I’m grateful for our time abroad and for where we are now, but I miss community living dearly. I miss living with the Lents. I desire to live in a community again for all the benefits and the challenges that brings. That’s something I desire for my future life, even at 40. Carla Lents: Yeah, I think a predominant thing that I remember right after we moved out of the community and we were living in our own house is that the first six months after we did that, Caleb kept asking, like, are we ever going to move into the community again? And. As he’s gotten older and he’s become a teenager, that’s waned a little bit, but I believe there’s a little seed inside him that, when the time comes that it could be reinvigorated in his life, he will look for that. I’m a happy crier. I’m sorry. Ryan Lents: Yeah. It’s crazy to think about, like, in 2020, that four out of the five [00:46:00] kids that two couples have, like, all three of Lisa and Jonathan’s kids and then yeah. Like our younger son Micah, we’re all born in community. I just think about how formative that was for them; up until 2020, when we did go our separate ways, like four of them had known nothing else. Yeah. The beautiful thing is, we’ve remained very close friends. We were just together last weekend. We’ve seen each other three times, I think, in the last three months, with just a little bit of a rarity because we are six hours apart now. But just the way that things have worked out, it’s been a lovely happenstance. When our families get together, it’s like cousins; they’re more than just friends. There’s a dynamic that they just pick right up together. And that bond is something that I think we’ll carry forward for the rest of our lives, which is a really beautiful thing. Actually, you should interview them. That would be really good. One of these days, maybe you could interview the kids and see what they have to say about this. I don’t think Caleb would actually agree to that, but I’m just saying hypothetically, it would be really interesting to hear their insights about this because they, even though it’s been over five years now, like, so [00:47:00] many of those core memories are there with them. So yeah. Lisa Wittig: I think one of the things I’m most grateful for is having given that gift to our children, because I think in the way children grow up in our society, they have to deal with the struggles and challenges of figuring out how to live with siblings, but also when you add in siblings who aren’t siblings, it’s a new dynamic. And there were special friendships there and special pieces to those relationships that I’m so grateful that they have. When we moved out, I think it was even like two years after we had moved out, and Ben was like, “When are we going to move back in with Micah again?” Just ‘cause he values that relationship, and every time we meet together with the Lents, he’s always so excited to see Micah, who was his best buddy when we were all living together. Jonathan Wittig: Still is his best buddy. Yeah. And he still holds him in that regard. It is also something that builds me with joy every time. And then Katherine, who was two when we left the community, so she really wasn’t able to experience [00:48:00] it. She doesn’t skip a beat. I think she loves every member here as the same as though she did live it. Like she just maybe just realizes that Caleb has a special bond with her and takes care of her like a little sister. And I don’t know. I love the kids’ dynamic together. Carla Lents: For several times when we saw the wigs after we moved out of the community, but Katherine was still really young. Then Caleb would always be like, “When are you going to make me a little sister?” So yeah. When we had Micah, he really wanted a little brother, and then he was like, why didn’t I get a little sister? Christina Gebel: I love that so much. So, we’re winding down. I’d like to offer one question before my final question to each of you. So, the second-to-last question is for someone considering this. Maybe people aren’t ready to take the plunge like you did, but what would you recommend to read or think about or people to talk to? Is there a world in which you can kind of do a [00:49:00] community light, if you will, and start trialing some of these things? What would you say to someone who’s just in the beginning stages of discerning something like this? Lisa Wittig: I think one of the most important things is to probably outline what your end goals would be or like what your priorities would be. I think for us that piece was pretty easy, I think. It took that year of discernment to come together and all voice them. Figuring out what that is, I think, was a really important piece because you obviously don’t want to go into something that high of a commitment without making sure that you’re at least on the same page with the other people that are going to be there doing it with you. Whether it’s like trying to live more simply, trying to build intentional community, or whatever those goals are, try to make sure that you have them written down and focus on them. Carla Lents: Just to elevate what Lisa just said. It’s like both the high-level values and goals behind it, making sure you’re aligned [00:50:00] there and then creating the structure, the containers, for coming back together on a regular basis, rechecking in on a regular basis. I think those were the two things that made us successful because we always had those values to remember the why, but then also you had the structure for keeping things on track on a daily and weekly basis. Ryan Lents: I think in the process of discerning, coming to understand like what our non-negotiables were. Like, what were the things that were absolutely essential. What were the things that there could be flexibility around? It’s interesting; we didn’t necessarily come up with an exit strategy specifically. And that could have bit us bad if we had not come to agreement about how to part ways. I think that the first two years we had a good experiment because we knew we were just doing this for a year, and then the first year went really well. So quickly we’re like, “Okay, we’re going to do a second year.” When you get to the level of sharing a mortgage and your lives are really, truly intermingled, it just requires that ongoing communication and cultivation of trust to make sure that, yeah, we’re seeing eye to eye about our vision and future together. It really just takes ongoing communication to really make it work. And that would be true even if there were arrangements or agreements in place that weren’t as commingled as what we ended up doing. That piece around communication really helps quite a bit with addressing things as they come up, as opposed to letting things fester and getting to a place where then things completely unravel. It’s often when people just don’t share their needs in a healthy way that all kinds of things can happen that can cause a lot of harm. Jonathan Wittig: I’ll add that there are a lot of types of intentional communities that have a full range of values that they live by and how they live. And so, a resource, I think it was [The Foundation for Intentional Community] ic.org [http://ic.org] or something like that. But Chicago has a ton of intentional communities, and I recall most of the ones I was aware of or was drawn to [00:52:00] had hospitality as a value. And so, they would have an open dinner, and you can just come as an individual or as a family or whatnot and just be exposed. And so, you could just slowly get your feet wet without having to find five people to live with or anything like that. You can just get there, and a lot of ‘em have opportunities to enter into existing communities, so you don’t have to, like, go through the full process, and you can just see what’s already set up and opt in versus having to start from scratch. Lisa Wittig: I’ll just point out that, like, we chose to live in an intentional community with another family, and I don’t think there’s anything in the definition of intentional community that says it has to be someone that you’re not related to. So, there are plenty of ways that you can try to live out intentional community with the people you’re currently living with. I think that’s a great first step to figuring out what you want your journey to be and look like. Again, sitting down and thinking through, what are my goals? What am I hoping to get out of this? Like in what ways am I willing to make a sacrifice and be intentional about something? And just taking those kinds of [00:53:00] smaller steps. Like Jonathan said, there are a lot of great examples of different communities that we got to see and experience. People who maybe just lived next to each other or in the same neighborhood and made intentional choices to come together every once in a while or do certain things. In the same way or together, there are a lot of different ways to do it. But again, just sitting down at the beginning and deciding, where do I want to be? Where do I want to go? And what am I willing to really give to the experience? Ryan Lents: And you had asked Christina about resources. There were two books that were helpful in terms of some of the framings that we used for some of our own discernment. One is a book called [Building Community: Christian, Caring, Vital] by Loughlan Sofield, Rosine Hammett, and Carroll Juliano. It’s about a 30-year-old book now, but it’s one that I think we used at Amate House and incorporated some of the conversations that happened during orientation for those communities. And it was helpful for us. Then there’s a book called [Creating a Life Together: Practical Tools to Grow Ecovillages and Intentional Communities] by Diana Leafe Christian. She’s spent most of her adult life living in ecovillages; it’s like people that want to go off the grid and want to form their own community, buy land, raise livestock, and have gardens and things like that. There are people that kind of take it to a whole other level. She has a book that talks about a lot of things that didn’t really relate to our reality around purchasing land and those things, but some of the things around agreements and ongoing practices were helpful for us to look at and just to open our minds to the range of decisions that we might need to consider. So, both of those resources were helpful for us. Christina Gebel: Those are some really great suggestions, and I don’t think those were actually on my radar up to this point, so I appreciate you offering them. And again, the theme of this season is radical family, making bold choices to live out faith. And certainly, I think many would agree that the decision that y’all made to live together in this community was bold. And we’ve talked a lot about faith and all of that. [00:55:00] But to bring it back to faith, where has this choice that you made deep into your faith been, or has your faith grown deeper in the years since as a result of making this decision? Carla Lents: For me it is, recognizing that God puts other people in our lives that act as God that are God’s hands and God’s heart; conversely, it makes you recognize how much the culture of individualism has affected you. And it’s something that still exists even after living in community for seven years. It definitely still exists in me, but also you were talking about before the idea of it. Wanting to be a part of the village and having to be a villager wanting to see God’s promise enacted on earth. You have to be God’s hands. Ryan Lents: Yeah. Yeah. I think that community offers amazing opportunities to [00:56:00] deepen one’s faith and spirituality. Because in the daily things that you encounter, you get a mirror of both your own giftedness and the divinity that lives within you and the ways that hopefully a community affirms that. But also, yeah, seeing the divinity and the godliness of others that we get to walk with. A community that just is focusing on itself is one that is going to suffocate; it needs oxygen. Communities that are healthy and vital are the ones that are engaged out in the world, that give a damn about what’s happening on the block in the city. And we’ve talked very little about our commitments to justice in this conversation, but the organizing work that I do now and, like, living in community, just like my own clarity around my own vocation, and much of the work that I’ve done over the last 10, 15 years has really been shaped by that opportunity to live in community. And that’s been, I think, a really important part of it as well. Jonathan Wittig: For me, it was and has continued to be the challenge and example that each member of our community has given. I was sharing with Ryan when I was in Chicago with him, just [00:57:00] how I’m inspired by his work and I’m challenged by his work that he’s living out the example that he’s setting right now. I use that as an opportunity for me. How am I living out justice in my faith? And with Carla, it was her kindness and her peace that she carried with her all the time. And with Tony, it was his spirituality and his self-reflection. And Lisa brought us all together in terms of just keeping our house cohesive. And so, all of those were opportunities for me to witness other people living out their faith. And then also. Either be challenged by it or learn from it or grow from it. I believe in faith in action and each of those components as an opportunity for me to grow in my faith. And I appreciated it then, and I still appreciate it now. Lisa Wittig: I don’t know that I’ll add anything new to all of that great wisdom, but I think my summation is we are called to live in community. We’re called to be together and be with one another. The actual physical presence of having one another in your proximity just provides that extra accountability to [00:58:00] acknowledge that yes, you are here, I am here, and we are doing this together. We’re living this life together. And hopefully, being a positive influence on each other, hoping to enact change or make an impact in some way that’s possibly greater than if we were just by ourselves. Christina Gebel: Wow. I don’t even know how I can follow that because I am just awed by the wisdom of this conversation and probably will be for the rest of the day and the week. I just want to say I feel incredible. Lucky to know the four of you as people. And regardless if we had been talking about this topic and there were so many other directions we could have gone with, I admire each of you and the social justice that you commit yourselves to every day. And what a gift it’s been for me to be your friend in my own formation. I hope that this conversation will spark something [00:59:00] for other people, so that even if they’re not living under the same roof, maybe they’re just thinking more intentionally about life and how we live it and how it impacts other people around us in our immediate household but also in our community at large. So, I just again want to thank you all. It has been an honor, a joy, and a pleasure. Jonathan Wittig: A joy being here. Christina, thank you for having us. Ryan Lents: Thanks for the invitation. It’s been lovely to, yeah, Revisit this time of our lives. This is a public episode. If you would like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit christinagebel.substack.com [https://christinagebel.substack.com?utm_medium=podcast&utm_campaign=CTA_1]

Season 2 TEASER: Radical Family - Coming Soon!

[00:00:00] Hey, everyone! This is Christina. I am tuning into today with some exciting news, and that is that Moderate Catholic has officially wrapped its first season on acedia! I hope y’all had a good time listening to the episodes and exploring the bonuses. And believe it or not, it is now actually time to move on to season two. So, what started at a sub podcast, which was kind of like, yeah, we’ll see where things go, has now grown up into toddlerhood, and hopefully it won’t be the terrible twos! So, we are approaching season two, and I’m just dropping a quick note to let you know that the theme of season two will be…Radical Family! [drum roll sound effect followed by applause sound effect][00:01:00] Now, you might be saying, okay, what is that? “Radical Family” is a phrase that came to me as I was starting to think about season two, and it was inspired by a homily that I heard when I was living in Boston with one of my favorite priests there, and he was talking about how radical means “roots.” And so, if you think of like a radish, right? Radish…grows underground. It has roots, soil, earth, that sort of thing. That’s the extent of my Latin connecting the dots. So radical means to get to the root of something. And he was saying that, on its face, radical seems like extreme, right? Like we usually use radical as someone or something that’s like way [00:02:00] over on one end of the spectrum or defies all the typical paradigms when really. Radical means to get to the essence of something if we’re looking at those Latin underpinnings, and I got to thinking about that. What I realized was our faith is radical in both ways, right? What does it mean to be a radical Catholic? One, it could mean those big, huge bold ideas that we use when we talk about being radical secularly, the big ideas, breaking the norms, all those things. But it also could mean, like, getting down to the essence of our faith, and if we really distill down to the root of our faith, what emerges is ironically actually something quite radical To follow Jesus, [00:03:00] really in a true way, the essence of what He taught, upending what had been taught up until then to get to the root of Jesus’s message is actually to live a radical life. So, I started kind of playing with that double meaning of radical, both bold, but also foundational essence, and I started thinking, you know, what would it mean to be a radical family in today’s world? And I’ve always had an interest in family since I am a birth doula, and have studied a lot of marriage and family ethics and theology, and I started to think about what would it mean if a family was radically living out their faith? On the one hand, it would be families that are making really bold choices. So maybe it’s they’re living [00:04:00] their home life a different way, or maybe the way that their family comes together is different, or the service or the mission or the social justice that they’re committing themselves to as a family looks a little different than your average family in society, but also, if we’re talking about the faith aspect of all of it, it also means like how is this family really embodying the essence of what Jesus was calling all of us to do, but in this case, as a family unit. When I put those two together, that phrase “radical family,” I started to think about families who I know who I would point to, to say, hey, they’re doing something a little different. They’re not just doing the norm. Not that the norm is necessarily bad or lacking, but they’re inspiring. They’re trying to do things with intentionality. And when I [00:05:00] was an undergrad and really into marriage and family ethics, I really looked up to my theology advisor and how she was intentionally living out faith in her family, and when you walked into their house, you kind of knew in little and big ways that this family had something that they were really committed to. So, using that inspiration, I started to think about other people in my life who were doing similar exemplary things, inspirational things, faith-filled things. And I started coming up with a short list of people I knew I wanted to interview, but then I started talking to people and asked, hey, if you were to pick a radical family, and this is what that kind of sort of means in my head, who would you think of? And it was really inspiring honestly, to hear from people as to who comes to mind when they think of that phrase what resulted was [00:06:00] just a lot of really cool, interesting conversations. I have somehow whittled down all those amazing conversations to the episodes that you’re going to hear in this season. But I hope that you’ll hear it and not think of it as like, oh my gosh, that is so amazing, [but] there’s no way me or my family could ever do that. That’s not the point! It’s not to make it seem impossible, but maybe what they’re saying or how they’re saying it will spark something in you to allow you to dream bigger or dream a little bit farther or nudge yourself a little bit more on how you can intentionally live out your faith with the people who are closest to you, your loved ones, however you would choose to define your family. So, that is where we’re heading. And I think you’re gonna be really just inspired by these [00:07:00] stories of faith. A lot of times we hear stories of faith about the individuals: saints, exemplary people, et cetera, et cetera. But to do it in family life, I think, personally, is an above and beyond commitment because it involves other people in such a deep and intimate way. And like individuals in our modern-day world, families also have a lot going on when it comes to wrestling with the modern-day kind of autopilot, and it takes a little bit to break out of that and think really intentionally, especially when it comes to faith. So, if any of that was like, huh, that sort of makes sense, or that might be interesting, I hope you’ll join me in season two. We have a lot of really great people and excellent conversations ahead! This is a public episode. If you would like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit christinagebel.substack.com [https://christinagebel.substack.com?utm_medium=podcast&utm_campaign=CTA_1]

Episode 8a: BONUS An Examen for Acedia in Our Modern Time

Introduction to the Reflection Welcome to the Examen on Acedia, produced for you by Christina Gebel with The Moderate Catholic. As we enter into this time together, think about how you might want to use this Examen. You could use it with a retreat, after a month’s time in your life, during a Church season - like Advent or Lent - but for the purposes of our time here, we will be using it to reflect on a week that has passed in our life. Reflection Part I So, with that, I invite you to sit and rest, find a comfortable spot, perhaps have a pen or paper nearby in case you want to write down a [00:01:00] thought. And very gently invite yourself to settle your spirit and try to just turn down the volume of your mind. As you’re turning down the volume of your mind, try and turn up the awareness of everything presently around you, of the body that you’re in, the touch, the sound, the feelings around you, and slowly quiet the mind and become fully present.[00:02:00] To open our reflection, we’ll use the quote from Psalm 46, verse 10. We’ll repeat this quote a few times, slowly, so that we can invite God into this space with us. Invite the Holy Spirit, invite Jesus to be with us in our time today: “Be still and know that I am God.” This next time, try taking a series of deep [00:03:00] breaths and we’ll read again from Psalm 46, verse 10: “Be still and know that I am God.” “Be still and know that I am God.” Now that you’ve gotten to a still place, think about the last week or whatever time period that you want to reflect on today. [00:04:00] Think about all the ordinary or special things that might have happened in that time. Think about the ordinary ways you might have spent your weekdays. Think about the evenings. Think about the weekend Recall the people, places, and things that came up in that normal progression of your day, [00:05:00] of your week. And now kind of float above those memories. Kind of be a mindful, neutral observer of everything that’s coming to mind and ask yourself, what was your energy feeling like? Was it energetic? Did you feel excited about something? Maybe you felt bored or a little bit like autopilot? Were there [00:06:00] times when you might’ve been lethargic or maybe tired? Not feeling very motivated, Or perhaps you are a little jittery, maybe a little bit distracted, feeling like you’re going from one thing to the next with barely a pause. Or maybe you had times when you felt weary. Maybe you had a hard time feeling hope. Maybe some despair crept in. Maybe the time or hours seem to drag on in parts of your day. [00:07:00] Parts of your week or maybe time just kind of felt like it stopped altogether. So, take a moment and just think: how was your energy? Jot down some thoughts or take some mental notes about all the variations in your energy. Keep holding those thoughts in your head, those feelings, those memories, and ask yourself, did you doubt yourself at all? Did you have doubts about what you’re doing in [00:08:00] life? Did any questions come up as to what you are meant to do? Did you have a time when you might have felt unworthy? Did you have a time when you wanted to escape or get away or evade something? Did you find your mind wandering, daydreaming, wondering if there was something better, maybe a better job, a better place to live, [00:09:00] a better program, a better path? Did you seek the stimulus of something new? Did you neglect something that maybe you said you’ve committed to? Or perhaps push off something that you’ve been meaning to do to another day? Another time?[00:10:00] Did you sit down to do something and maybe felt overwhelmed? Maybe you decided to stop before you even tried? Now, think of times that you were totally alone. What were those small moments of silence or small windows of time when you were just with yourself? Did that feel uncomfortable? Did you [00:11:00] find yourself reaching for something to occupy your mind? Maybe it was your phone. Scrolling, shopping, social media, turning to the news, playing a game, texting someone… Did you find yourself seeking comfort in distraction? Were there times that you were alone, but maybe you were multitasking?[00:12:00] Eating while working? Talking while driving? Now, think about your body. Were there times when you became, maybe, frustrated or impatient with your health? Impatient, maybe, with the limitations of your body. Did you have that feeling of there’s just not enough hours in the day?[00:13:00] Did you have a time when you found yourself drifting back to the past? Did you find yourself with a sense of longing for days when you were younger, felt differently, life was simpler, you felt more happy, maybe more free to do what you chose?[00:14:00] Was there a time this week that you tried to talk yourself out of something? Maybe you had the thought that you were “too” something to try. Maybe you felt too young, maybe too old. Too inexperienced, Too far along down [00:15:00] one road already. In too deep already. Too busy. Or maybe it was that you felt that you just have too many people depending on you in the current situation. Take a moment now and pause and just let those thoughts, those feelings, those memories kind of bubble up to the surface and just simply sit with them. Sit [00:16:00] with them like you would find yourself sitting across from someone at a table, on a bench. Hold those memories, those moments, those scenes, those feelings. And accept them as part of your story… Without judgment. [00:17:00] Without feelings of less than, or unworthiness or screwing something up… Just accept them for what they are without judgment in a space of peace and neutrality. Reflection Part II Now once you’ve sat there with all of that, [00:18:00] I want you to just sit up, reposition yourself wherever you are, and just start taking some deep breaths in and out. Deep breaths in and out. And on these next breaths, breathe in and out with a spirit of openness. Now I want you to go back to that same time period that you’ve been [00:19:00] recalling the thoughts, the feelings, the emotions, and now we’re going to turn to a different set of questions. Was there a time that you felt joy? Was there a time that you saw yourself laughing authentically? Was there a moment in there that you felt your load lighten? Did someone or something [00:20:00] make you feel really excited? Did something spark your curiosity? Did something come up and you questioned was that a coincidence or was it a sign? Did someone say something to you that really stuck with you?[00:21:00] Did you have moments when you felt like you were in “flow”, when all your systems were firing in the best kind of way? And you felt this kind of energy, even if the task was mundane or simple, Did you have a moment when you felt fully present or immersed in something? Did you feel like you never wanted it to end?[00:22:00] You could have sat there, stood there, listened, or learned all day feeling totally absorbed. Did you have periods of gratitude for where you were, where you are in your life, or who you are? Did you experience a profound or surprising moment of clarity?[00:23:00] Did you feel the depth of an unquestionable commitment to something, even if it was hard? Did you find yourself dreaming? Daydreaming? Wondering? Even if you or someone said it was impossible and probable or could never happen, did you find yourself wondering if maybe it could?[00:24:00] Did you have a time when you felt like you were tempted to flee or distract yourself, but instead you just stopped and stayed? Did you stop worrying or dwelling on something and choose to trust God instead? Did you sit with discomfort or not having an answer?[00:25:00] Did you persevere in prayer or making it to church or showing up at a church event, even when you didn’t feel like it? Even when it might’ve felt impossible or that nothing seemed to be going your way to get there? Did you have any moment when you remembered why you felt called to do something? Why you felt called this job, this vocation?[00:26:00] Did you remind yourself why you love doing something so much? Did you relish in something that you’ve really missed? Did you persist in hope, even if everyone and everything around you said otherwise? Did you do any of these things and find peace and joy on the other side?[00:27:00] Maybe you found a renewed commitment, A fond reminder, A surprising curiosity, A deeper gratitude, A clear vision, A greater sense of trust [00:28:00] in God, A greater comfort with who you are, A belief in your own unique gifts, your fundamental worthiness. And now I want you to gently rest a hand on your shoulder and bring yourself back. [00:29:00] Gently, slowly return to the present moment. Be aware of your breathing. Be aware of your body. And take these last moments to just sit with a question. What stayed with me, what’s still lingering there? Nudging you stay with that whisper, stay with that nudge, and let it speak [00:30:00] directly to you. Maybe you want to stay there and be with the quiet of those feelings, those messages, those Divine [00:31:00] revelations. Or, if you want to gently bring yourself back, slowly open your eyes and reenter the world that God has given you. This is a public episode. If you would like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit christinagebel.substack.com [https://christinagebel.substack.com?utm_medium=podcast&utm_campaign=CTA_1]