Claybourne Elder on being a gay dad, growing up Mormon, and the kindness of strangers

Katrina Anne Willis explains why the first real betrayal in a late-in-life coming-out story is the "betrayal of self"

I was excited to finally chat with Katrina Anne Willis [https://substack.com/profile/16258216-katrina-anne-willis] about her memoir Hurricane Lessons [https://bookshop.org/a/112868/9798897400140]: [https://bookshop.org/a/112868/9798897400140]A Memoir of Betrayal and Becoming [https://bookshop.org/a/112868/9798897400140]. It’s a gripping story of late-in-life queer awakening, institutional gaslighting, and the devastating cost of finally choosing personal truth. Katrina, thanks for joining me. Last year, we published an essay by Katrina titled “I Was Gay, and He Was Understanding [https://queerloveproject.substack.com/p/katrina-willis-married-lesbian?utm_source=publication-search],” which is a companion to her memoir. It starts with the line: “In my 46th year on this planet, I found out I was gay.” She’s now 56 and is living in Lexington, Kentucky, so we jumped into what it meant to have this beautiful story out in the world for others to engage with at this point in her life (and during this complex political moment in the United States). As a mother of four, Katrina faced the gut-wrenching task of balancing personal liberation with family upheaval. As she writes in Hurricane Lessons: “I often found myself trapped between the rebellious fire that burned in my belly and the relentless need to be what everyone else wanted and expected me to be.” At first, Katrina’s ex-husband, who knew she was attracted to other women, suggested an open marriage as a compromise. This strategy failed. Katrina deftly relays how differing expectations of "freedom" exposed deeper power dynamics and underlying control issues within their relationship. When she was helping her husband fill out his Tinder profile, she said, “The Catholic girl in me was screaming, ‘What are you doing?’” She ended up meeting women and men on the apps as well—something that is difficult for everyone, but especially in midlife. Katrina said the most difficult thing she ever did in her life was coming out as gay to her kids. (You can hear her explain that at the 16:50 mark.) She said her children haven’t read the memoir (as far as she knows), but they all have a good relationship at this point. Although she did point out that her “catalyst” was her daughter’s friend’s mom and that made things rocky between Katrina and her daughter for a time. I was curious if she had any advice for others who may find themselves in a similar situation, whether that’s a mixed-orientation marriage or someone navigating the decision to open their relationship to other physical or emotional possibilities. Especially since, as she emphasizes in her memoir, the first real betrayal in a late-in-life coming-out story is actually the "betrayal of self." “My former husband used to say to me, during our divorce, ‘You’ve built your entire life on lies.’ And I never agreed with that,” Katrina explained. “Because I never truly understood who I was. And it does feel like a betrayal to my self. I obviously don’t want to go back—because I have these four wonderful kids, and I wouldn’t have gotten them without living the life that I did—but I did betray myself in a way by not knowing who I was better. Or not delving deeper. Or not agreeing to acquiesce all the time. I just became who everyone else wanted me to be.” We also spoke about Robert Fisher’s book, The Fisher King and the Handless Maiden [https://bookshop.org/a/112868/9780062506481], because Katrina cited him in her memoir because he writes about how Sanskrit has 96 words for love, ancient Persian has eight, Greek has three, and English has only one. As Katrina writes: “He surmises that the reason we have only one word for love is because we don’t give that realm of feeling enough importance. “Ninety-six words for love. Love for significant others. Love for friends. Love for sexual partners. Love for children. Love for ideology. Love for animals. Love for the land. For food. For air. For the salty sea. For the wind in our hair. So many kinds of love. So much love. But the ones that describe that essential human relationship—be it man/woman, man/man, woman/woman, or any other genders—those become blurry for me. And not indistinguishably blurry. I have female friends I’m not one bit attracted to physically. But when all those attractions converge?” So I asked Katrina that rhetorical one she poses in the book: “When spirituality, intellect, and skin collide, how do you distinguish in love from love?” “You’re not allowed to ask me that,” Katrina said. “That’s rhetorical!” You’ll want to hit play and listen/watch to find out how she explained it (that’s around the 26:25 minute mark). The memoir also highlights extreme domestic retaliation, including gaslighting, threats, and an involuntary psychiatric commitment, which we discussed. As she explained, there’s not a lot of great advice out there for people who may be navigating similar situations, so she wanted to publish this memoir. “Make sure you understand your finances,” Katrina advised. “And make sure you have control over those things. … And I had so much guilt that I didn’t fight for anything. Looking back, I think there’s a lot of things I could have done to secure my own future better. … Of course there’s gonna be guilt, but it’s important to stay true to yourself.” Hurricane Lessons is a harrowing read at points, especially to witness how Katrina’s community and institutions weaponized her mental health crisis against her queer awakening—but I hope you’ll read or listen and find out how she survived to share her story with us and offer a roadmap for others. The Queer Love Project is a reader-supported publication. To receive new posts and support my work, consider becoming a free or paid subscriber. Get full access to The Queer Love Project at queerloveproject.substack.com/subscribe [https://queerloveproject.substack.com/subscribe?utm_medium=podcast&utm_campaign=CTA_4]

Claybourne Elder on being a gay dad, growing up Mormon, and the kindness of strangers

I spoke with with Claybourne Elder, a performer who many may know from his breakout role as John Adams on HBO’s The Gilded Age and his roles in Broadway revivals like Company. Most recently, he has channeled his journey from a Mormon upbringing in Utah to fatherhood in New York into his debut solo album, If The Stars Were Mine. You can stream it [https://orcd.co/ifthestarsweremine] on the platforms and it’s now on vinyl from Center Stage Records and available for purchase on his website [https://www.claybourneelder.com/]. It happened to be Mother’s Day, and Clay explained that his son Bo decided years ago that he would celebrate one of his father’s on that day, so this year it was Clay’s turn to have “Papa’s Day.” This may be a spoiler for some, but Clay’s character in Gilded Age looked like he was about to get love with Oscar van Rhijn (played by Blake Ritson), the man he’d been having a clandestine relationship with. And then he was tragically killed [https://www.hollywoodreporter.com/tv/tv-features/the-gilded-age-john-death-season-3-director-interview-1236332652/]! (This took place in Season 3, episode 6 if you’re curious.) I wanted to know what that was like—both portraying an authentic male-male romance in the late 19th century, as well as knowing he was doomed. Clay had thoughts… OK, yes, there is a lot of musical theater talk on this episode. But can you blame us? Clay said that he and his older gay brother used to sing musicals together as kids, and they had a particular love of Judy Garland and Edith Piaf. Oh, and we also talked about the queer joy of Cats: The Jellicle Ball, the revival of the Andrew Lloyd Webber musical that was recently nominated for bunches of Tonys [https://glaad.org/tony-nominated-director-bill-rauch-infuses-lgbtq-ballroom-culture-in-broadway-revival-of-cats-the-jellicle-ball/]. Of course, Clay got the QLP “Big One”: Based on the QLP questionnaire [https://queerloveproject.substack.com/t/questionnaires], I asked him how he defined love? Is it the “strong feeling” that hits you instantly, or is it the “thing you work at” over a long period of time? You’ll definitely want to listen in and hear his answer, along with his advice for those who are looking for love. He doesn’t say STAY OFF INSTAGRAM, but he does comment on how we get too involved in other people’s relationships and the way they are telegraphed on social media. He also explained what his older sister said when he brought his first boyfriend home, and how he and his husband, Eric Rosen, decided to become parents and navigated surrogacy to become dads. I was curious to learn more about his City of Strangers [https://www.cityofstrangers.org/] initiative, which was born from a random $200 gift that changed his life. In particular, I wanted to know if, in the context of queer community, viewed that kind of "stranger-kindness" as a form of platonic love? Turns out, he’s now friends with the guy who gave him that money all those years ago! We also discussed his latest role as the dentist [https://playbill.com/article/claybourne-elder-will-have-a-gas-in-little-shop-of-horrors-off-broadway] in Little Shop of Horrors, which he joins on May 26 in New York City. Before that, one of the chat questions was about playing “unsavory” character Jackie in The Wild Party. [https://amsterdamnews.com/news/2026/03/26/the-wild-party-is-poignant-at-nycc/] Clay said he liked playing villains since that’s now how most people typically see him, but his son Bo was not allowed to come see him in that production—but will be invited to see him as Dr. Orin Scrivello in Little Shop. By the way, here’s the complete track list of his If the Stars Were Mine album. As Clay explained, the album tells a complete story, but he did reveal which song was his favorite (at this moment) before we let him enjoy the rest of his Papa’s Day. Thanks to everyone who joined our conversation live. You can find the vinyl of Clay’s album at his website [https://www.claybourneelder.com/] and learn more about his City of Strangers [https://www.cityofstrangers.org/] initiative as well. Email us at queerloveprojectsub@gmail.com [queerloveprojectsub@gmail.com] to take “The QLP Questionnaire.”Plus, find out how to submit your original personal essay [https://queerloveproject.substack.com/p/coming-soon] to The Queer Love Project. We pay our contributors, so your subscription and support is valuable! Thanks for reading. The Queer Love Project is a reader-supported publication. To receive new posts and support my work, consider becoming a free or paid subscriber. Get full access to The Queer Love Project at queerloveproject.substack.com/subscribe [https://queerloveproject.substack.com/subscribe?utm_medium=podcast&utm_campaign=CTA_4]

The radical joy of queer travel

I met Lindsey Danis while in Baltimore during the annual AWP conference [https://queerloveproject.substack.com/p/awp-2026-baltimore-recap]. She told me about her forthcoming book, (Out) on the Road [https://bookshop.org/a/112868/9781632461827], and I was excited to discuss the idea of “queer travel” and how that intersects with our search for love, opportunities for discovery and celebration. We published Lindsey’s essay “Lost in Apalachicola [https://queerloveproject.substack.com/p/lindsay-danis-travel-essay]” last week, which is an excerpt from the book, and details a time when Lindsey was traveling with a romantic partner and experienced some unexpected challenges during this unusual camping trip. As Lindsey writes: “I’d fancied myself an adventurous spirit in need of toughening up, but instead I was dead weight. I had no useful skills to offer the group. I’d used travel like a magic trick, wanting liminality to hack my healing, but I wasn’t ready to let go of the past.” In fact, I’d been on quite a road trip of my own when I spoke with Lindsey. I was tucked into my younger brother’s spare room in his new home in Chattanooga, Tennessee. I’d just driven up from my parents’ home in the Deep South where I’d also been busy guncling (I happened to see all five of my nephews and niece on this side of the family during this Southern sojourn). I know the region of north Florida and South Georgia fairly well since I graduated from high school in Valdosta, Georgia. While it’s not a place I particularly thrive in, I do always find creative inspiration—from the storytelling culture to the food and hijinks that eventually ensue. Later that day, I traveled to Nashville, where we were set to host QLP’s first live event in the South at The Porch on Saturday afternoon [https://www.instagram.com/p/DXmD5nyEcKt/]. I am thrilled to report that the event was a huge success, and I will share more dispatches about that soon enough. Lindsey—who lives in the Hudson Valley of New York with her partner and two dogs and is always hiking, kayaking or cooking—and I talked about a lot of fun topics, including her honeymoon (and why I struggled suggesting destinations when I was an editor at OutTraveler), the distinct needs and struggles for trans and gender nonconforming travelers, and her favorite destinations around the world. I hope you enjoy the conversation. I’m curious what your favorite spots to visit are and if you have any hints, recommendations or travel stories you’d like to share. In fact, this chat inspired me to launch a flash nonfiction “contest” with a travel theme to see what you’ll submit. I’ll be sharing these details (and more prompts) in a separate post, but here’s how it works if you want to get started: (Mini) Flash Nonfiction Essay Contest Theme/Topic: My Perfect Day (of Travel) In just 300 words or less, recount a perfect day of travel that has resonated with you and sparked “queer love” of some sort. It could be an entire day from start to finish, a sliver of an afternoon, something you remember from childhood or an impactful Sunday from last month. We want to know what happened and why it has stuck with you. This could be travel with friends, a new romantic interest, an old flame, or your primary partner. Just keep it short! The winner will have their flash nonfiction piece published on The Queer Love Project later this summer. Deadline: May 30 at 3 a.m. ET / Midnight PT Please note: This will be a “free post” (meaning we won’t be paying contributors upon publication as we do with other essays [https://queerloveproject.substack.com/p/how-to-submit-to-the-queer-love-project]) but you will receive a copy of Vol. 1 or 2 ofThe QLP Quarterly zine. Email us at queerloveprojectsub@gmail.com [queerloveprojectsub@gmail.com] to take “The QLP Questionnaire.”Plus, find out how to submit your original personal essay [https://queerloveproject.substack.com/p/coming-soon] to The Queer Love Project. We pay our contributors, so your subscription and support is valuable! Thanks for reading. The Queer Love Project is a reader-supported publication. To receive new posts and support my work, consider becoming a free or paid subscriber. Get full access to The Queer Love Project at queerloveproject.substack.com/subscribe [https://queerloveproject.substack.com/subscribe?utm_medium=podcast&utm_campaign=CTA_4]

The QLP Book Club: Mac Crane's 'A Sharp Endless Need'

It’s been nearly a year since we hosted our first QLP Book Club [https://queerloveproject.substack.com/p/rasheed-newson-jerry-portwood-book-club]. Over that time I’ve been thrilled to talk to so many talented authors about their novels and how they intersected with various topics of queer love. But I have to admit, I was disappointed that I hadn’t yet had the opportunity to focus on female-bodied desire. So I was thrilled to have author Mac Crane as our latest selection. In A Sharp Endless Need [https://bookshop.org/a/112868/9780593733646], the intensity of high school basketball serves as a high-stakes arena for grief, queer awakening, and the crushing weight of perfectionism. Set in a small Pennsylvania town in 2004, the novel follows star point guard Mack Morris as they navigate a senior year defined by the death of their father and an all-consuming obsession with new teammate Liv Cooper. As Mac writes at one point in this moving, heartbreaking and—ultimately—hopeful novel, basketball is "more erotic than dancing" and a form of "f*****g without touching." As someone who has never quite loved team sports and used to be fearful of athletic folks of all genders and persuasions, I have to say, Mac does an incredible job of showing the erotics of bball. Or as Mac stated quite bluntly: “Is basketball sex?” Thanks for reading The Queer Love Project! This post is public so feel free to share it. What’s so fantastic about the queer love angle is that it’s less about a "coming out" story and more about the visceral, often messy collision of desire and survival. I read Mac’s first book—I Keep My Exoskeletons to Myself [https://bookshop.org/a/112868/9781646222063]—and loved it, but it’s so different. It’s a speculative fiction novel about a queer mother grieving her wife's death while raising a child in a dystopian surveillance state. Although I know every author hates this question, A Sharp Endless Need seems to have some autobiographical elements, so I asked Mac (the author) to share the inspiration and impetus to devote your creative energy to explore Mack, the character’s, story. Mac shared that they did play basketball in college, but the book is obviously not autobiographical. First, however, we discussed that byline change from Marisa to Mac and whether it had anything to do with the character. “Everybody is like, ‘Oh wow, way to change it up,’ I realized my name can be something different, and I wished my name was Mac. It’s not my alter ego, but it is writing a different version of myself. I realized: Oh, you can change yourself.” Interestingly, Mac also talked about allowing themself to write about sports in literary fiction and how that doesn’t seem like someone writers have permission to do. “There’s still the age-old idea about jock versus nerd. Or how sports are not intellectual,” Mac explained. “This thing was a part of my life for 20 years, but I don’t think I can write about it.” Since the novel is set in the early 2000s—and it captures a specific era of "Bush-era homophobia" and the pre-social media world of AIM and shared cell phones—I was curious: How did Mac think Mack and Liv’s relationship would differ if the story were set today? In particular, would their young queer love have evolved in any significant ways since then (especially with apps, etc.)? “It was interesting to write about that precipice of technology,” Mac admitted. “I did share a phone with my mom. But I didn’t feel any stress about that.” A fascinating area that we discussed with the erotics of women’s sports—in contrast to male athletes in sports—something I had no frame of reference about. “It’s often different in women’s sports; queerness is more acceptable. For them, they’re comfortable expressing themselves, their eroticism, their chemistry, their communication through those micro-movements of joy and celebration through basketball.” Plus, we talked about Sheryl Swoopes (who first emerged from the closet in 2005 [https://afterellen.com/sheryl-swoopes-comes-out-as-nsgaa-not-so-gay-after-all/]) and Brittney Griner, and how there are more out WNBA players now, but that a lack of openly queer people in college or pro sports was still a thing in 2004. In the same vein, I mentioned the struggle for Abby Wambach and Megan Rapinoe [https://queerloveproject.substack.com/p/openly-closeted-coming-out-doula] (who I profiled in 2011, when she came out publicly) in soccer. Then Mac talked about basketball as a form of prayer and playing the game as a type of church (check that out around the 18:00 minute mark). Also, how a basketball season can mirror a Shakespearean tragedy and provides great fodder for drama, conflict and tension. Afterward, we talked about the infamous “bathtub scene.” This is one that fans of the book who recommended it to me said I had to discuss. Although, I played a couple of the audio clips with the narrator, Dani Martineck, who I think brings a wonderful element to the audiobook, I intentionally didn’t want to spoil this scene for any of the people who haven’t read (or listened) to it yet. But to fill you in: On the court, Mack seems like the “alpha”—the point guard in control. In the bathtub, however, they are physically and emotionally naked. The bathtub scene is one of the few moments where Mack allows themself to be cared for rather than having to perform. I asked Mac to share how they crafted this moment, and it’s a great response (you can listen in at the 25:03-minute moment in the video). Mac approached it as a cinematic moment and hopes this will enter into the queer canon of bathtub scenes (like The Talented Mr. Ripley [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LDekjk85rW0] and Saltburn [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NelHFEhsGnE]). We discussed so many other elements of this novel, so I hope you enjoy listening in and discovering why A Sharp Endless Need [https://bookshop.org/a/112868/9780593733646] is one of my favorite books that I’ve read from the past five years and clearly deserves to be included in a new canon of queer literature that explores love and relationships. To wrap things up, I asked about Mac’s new book out this summer Perverts [https://bookshop.org/a/112868/9780593733677], a collection of 17 stories. It’s been described as: “A provocative and uproarious collection about pleasure, performance, and pain, Perverts is an exaltation of the awesome depravity of queer modernity.” And at least one writer has called Mac the “queer George Saunders,” which seemed to pique the interest of several of the subscribers who joined us for the live conversation. Thanks to all who joined us for the latest QLP Book Club. Stay tuned for the next selection, which will be announced soon and take place in June. If you have any recommendations, please don’t hesitate to leave them in the comments or in our chat or DM us directly. And if you want to join us for one of the upcoming live events taking place this spring or summer, then go to the link below. Until next time! The Queer Love Project is a reader-supported publication. To receive new posts and support my work, consider becoming a free or paid subscriber. Get full access to The Queer Love Project at queerloveproject.substack.com/subscribe [https://queerloveproject.substack.com/subscribe?utm_medium=podcast&utm_campaign=CTA_4]

Ben Egerman on queer archives, a little gay and trans history, preserving generational memory

By now you probably know I’m a big fan of archives, histories, biographies and exploring the queer past that has remained obscured for far too long. During my latest Sunday chat, I invited Ben Egerman to join me to discuss his “gay little history zines [https://mdhistory.gay/]” and other historical work. We talked about the sapphic love stories that more people should be aware, a transgender horse thief, the Black drag and ballroom scene of West Baltimore and so much more. And no, in case you’re wondering: We did NOT coordinate our stripes! Fun fact: I attended a production of Cats: The Jellicle Ball on Friday night [https://substack.com/@jerryportwood/note/c-238315308?utm_source=activity_item], and Ben told me he has his tickets and is excited, in part, because André De Shields, who portrays Old Deuteronomy in the show, is from West Baltimore. I can’t recommend seeing this show enough: it’s pure queer joy! Ben explained how he got started at the William Way archive [https://www.waygay.org/archives-collections] in Philadelphia as well as the Lesbian Herstory Archives [https://www.lesbianherstoryarchives.org/] in New York City. And I mentioned my first experience at the ONEArchives [https://one.usc.edu/] in Los Angeles. Plus, we talked about the fragility of some queer archives because they have been destroyed and lost to history (and how Leslie Lohman Museum [https://leslielohman.org/archive] has a valuable archive that contains a trove of unique materials) “We don’t have access to generational memory as queer folks,” Ben explained. “In the same way as other ethnic, racial or language-based communities do… For queer people, your family is not usually a safe place for your document, and you have to actively seek to create those linkages.” Ben offered advice for those who may want to keep their own paper and photos and other ephemera safe and potentially donate them to an archive. Plus, he told us how he’s collecting and keeping good documentation of his own research and materials. He also mentioned checking out the Queer Stories Preservation Project [https://www.instagram.com/preservequeerstories/]. Among other resources, they also provide a link to an easy template [https://ugc.production.linktr.ee/332e79c5-15ee-43aa-a482-83c4a2c4da03_Jan-zine-formated.pdf.pdf] to create your own zines. I also want to shout out Queer Archivist [https://substack.com/profile/239642259-queer-archivist] on Substack as a great resource. Other books mentioned or referenced during our conversation: * Amos Badertscher: Images and Stories [https://bookshop.org/a/112868/9781580936477] * Gay New York [https://bookshop.org/a/112868/9781541699212] by George Chauncey * When Brooklyn Was Queer [https://bookshop.org/a/112868/9781250621405] by Hugh Ryan * The Love That Dares: An Anthology of Queer Love Letters [https://queerloveproject.substack.com/p/queer-love-letters-book-anthology-bishopsgate] * Secret City: The Hidden History of Gay Washington [https://bookshop.org/a/112868/9781250871466] by James Kirchick * Loving: [https://bookshop.org/p/books/loving-ii-more-photographic-history-of-men-in-love-1850s-1950s-hugh-nini/7f53d497ff3ff1db?ean=9788874394456&next=t&aid=112868&listref=queer-love-in-photos-and-art] More photographic history of men in love, 1850s-1950s (podcast episode [https://queerloveproject.substack.com/p/hugh-nini-and-neal-treadwell-share]) * Gertrude Stein: An Afterlife [https://bookshop.org/a/112868/9781982186012] by Francesca Wade And in case you want to download the PDF of any of the zines that Ben’s created, he makes them available on the website. Here’s a link to the “Pansy Craze [https://mdhistory.gay/wp-content/uploads/2026/01/pansy-craze-letter.pdf]” one that we discussed. Big scoop of the chat: I was excited to learn that Ben has been working on a book about queer Baltimore and when the book is available I’ll be sure to share more details. Plus, his next zine will be about John Waters and the “queer weirdos of the Baltimore suburbs” became counterculture icons. Thanks to everyone who joined us for this live chat! Our next big Substack LIVE will be on April 19 when I chat with author Marisa “Mac” Crane about their amazing novel, A Sharp Endless Need. If you want to get your own copy of The QLP Quarterly zine, it’s easy: Come to one of our upcoming events or upgrade to become a Catalyst Member [https://queerloveproject.substack.com/subscribe] to support The Queer Love Project’s mission. I’ll mail you a copy and a T-shirt (like the one I’m wearing in the video). Calendar of upcoming events: * April 25 at The Porch [https://www.porchtn.org/happenings/the-queer-love-project-storytelling-night-and-launch-party] in Nashville * May 2 Jerry will be at Open Secrets Live [https://www.symphonyspace.org/events/vp-open-secrets-live] * May 4 QLP contributors read at Elyssa Maxx Goodman [https://substack.com/profile/3026256-elyssa-maxx-goodman]’s Miss Manhattan series [https://www.elyssamaxxgoodman.com/miss-manhattan-nonfiction-reading-series] * May 9 at the Rainbow Book Fair [https://rainbowbookfair.com/] in New York City * May 12 Jerry will be reading at Must Love Memoir [https://open.substack.com/pub/krystalmarie]’s reading series * June 7 at Asbury Book Cooperative [https://asburybookcoop.org/] during Asbury Park Pride in NJ For more queer books that you might enjoy, visit our curated Bookshop.org shelves [https://bookshop.org/shop/QueerLoveProject]. The Queer Love Project is a reader-supported publication. To receive new posts and support my work, consider becoming a free or paid subscriber. Get full access to The Queer Love Project at queerloveproject.substack.com/subscribe [https://queerloveproject.substack.com/subscribe?utm_medium=podcast&utm_campaign=CTA_4]