Heaven Is Not the End: The Radical Truth of the Physical Resurrection ft. N.T. Wright

Heaven Is Not the End: The Radical Truth of the Physical Resurrection ft. N.T. Wright

In this powerful, long-anticipated conversation, Melanie welcomes renowned Bible scholar and former bishop N.T. Wright (Tom) to discuss the central truth of the Christian faith: the resurrection. Tom unpacks the radical, and often misunderstood, nature of Christ’s physical resurrection as a “new creation prototype” and explains why the ultimate Christian hope is not simply “going to Heaven,” but for new Heavens and a new earth. Drawing from his extensive work in The Resurrection of the Son of God and Surprised by Hope, Tom’s rigorous, Scripture-first approach directly confronts popular, Plato-influenced understandings of the soul, the afterlife, and the timeline of God’s final work.  Thought-Provoking Quotes: “I routinely tell students the Bible never uses the word ‘heaven’ to denote or describe the ultimate goal of Christian existence. It talks about the new heavens and the new earth into which we will be raised. Likewise, the Bible never uses the word ‘soul’ to denote or describe the sort of creatures that we will be in God’s ultimate new creation.” - N.T. Wright “Paul says in Philippians 1: ‘My desire is to depart and be with the Messiah which is far better.’ But that’s not the end of the story, because in the end, Romans 8, the Spirit who raised Jesus from the dead will give new life to our mortal bodies. And Paul emphasizes that happens through the Holy Spirit who’s been given to us. So the Holy Spirit coming to dwell with us to be fused with our human spirit, that provides the continuity, which in older theological traditions has been provided by the Platonic soul. And so part of my mission in life at the moment is to push back hard against that platonic idea.” - N.T. Wright “The Spirit, God Himself, is coming to dwell in the midst of His people. It’s not in a building, it’s in the hearts and lives of His followers.” - N.T. Wright “The whole Bible is very clear. The heavens and the earth are God’s good creation. The Heavens are the Lord’s, the earth is given to the children of men, but ultimately they’re designed to come together.” - N.T. Wright  “People have often gone to fantastical schemes which they’ve invented out of little bits and pieces from Daniel, Zechariah, or the book of Revelation, and then you get all the wild and wacky speculations about the so-called end times.” - N.T. Wright “For many people, the end times is what the whole story is all about. But really, that is a radical misunderstanding of the New Testament. And I speak as a ‘simple’ Bible Christian—I’d rather have the Bible than any human traditions.” - N.T. Wright Links, Products, and Resources Mentioned In This Episode: Surprised By Hope by N.T. Wright [https://www.amazon.com/Surprised-Hope-Rethinking-Resurrection-Mission/dp/0062089978/ref=sr_1_1?adgrpid=187113493140&dib=eyJ2IjoiMSJ9.Pw2L5FVjIPLYDnmZNmp3vCSbYfSHE3ElJJ8mAhOt8NnCoer3AXGauWE_11_OIyyMvLI22G05XFP2p2qZkQemNu3TN0G68Qm9gtu2j3UPcfV0uhgK197RIn0zei6FTDZS0rBkSE4woXM5tuFYe8pG_Dfp9yorKjQA38YBnoXx6z269DB5wLizMDBxNCzoiYlWdcys7sf_nJ-0TPfMHWXGRMqdbEQLkNSgrLgEYtxtm-o.a4ACBGPpeRi0hAzWcuDpBeHrD1XXUF_t3mDp4TLbOQk&dib_tag=se&hvadid=792724753800&hvdev=c&hvexpln=0&hvlocphy=9007574&hvnetw=g&hvocijid=9723873015578136253--&hvqmt=e&hvrand=9723873015578136253&hvtargid=kwd-331943674520&hydadcr=1027_1015362569_2462892&keywords=surprised+by+hope+book&mcid=cec25d1c75623bd1b491cd042cbc78dc&qid=1770087686&sr=8-1]  The Resurrection of the Son of God by N.T. Wright [https://www.amazon.com/Resurrection-Christian-Origins-Question-Vol/dp/0800626796] God’s Homecoming by N.T. Wright [https://www.amazon.com/Gods-Homecoming-Forgotten-Promise-Renewal/dp/006256417X/ref=sr_1_1?adgrpid=187991001564&dib=eyJ2IjoiMSJ9.7ocRFkU4W0_GAogGDDXmtpIUKqn-5FIGWF_DtNWi2YgbPnt51RopGHvM5QF14gAKWXAFVI_odemdbJYRn2mqUTm9JSfu6l8nX3Ws9itlpXw.o784k4ttt8ZbV9KnWMwr3ExqdHWuH0y24X6AcZGZwQk&dib_tag=se&hvadid=792694355487&hvdev=c&hvexpln=0&hvlocphy=9008072&hvnetw=g&hvocijid=12036793903111736554--&hvqmt=e&hvrand=12036793903111736554&hvtargid=kwd-2416981103433&hydadcr=2932_13891977_2446036&keywords=god%27s+homecoming+nt+wright&mcid=24a9c3c6532136768d815cb8fbb8d56c&qid=1770087932&sr=8-1] Miracles by C.S. Lewis [https://www.amazon.com/Miracles-C-S-Lewis/dp/0060653019] The Rise and Fall of Dispensationalism by Daniel G. Hummel [https://www.amazon.com/Rise-Fall-Dispensationalism-Evangelical-Battle/dp/0802879225] *Watch this interview on the YouTube channel [https://www.youtube.com/user/melaniepennnyc]!   *All episode music is by Melanie Penn.  Guest’s Links: Admirato’s website [https://www.admirato.org/] N.T. Wright’s Facebook [https://www.facebook.com/OfficialNTWright/] N.T. Wright’s Instagram [https://www.instagram.com/ntwrightonline/?hl=en] Connect with Melanie: The Rising (Album) [https://bit.ly/47VmnjL] Website [https://www.melaniepenn.com/] Facebook [https://www.facebook.com/melaniepennsings/] Instagram [https://www.instagram.com/melaniepenn/] YouTube [https://www.youtube.com/user/melaniepennnyc] Spotify [https://open.spotify.com/artist/4WKIrizEfylpzQsdegJlfh] *The Rising Podcast is a production of Four Eyes Media [https://www.iiiimedia.com/].

The Resurrection and the Reality of Grief: Nancy Guthrie

In this deeply moving episode of The Rising, Melanie sits down with Bible teacher and author Nancy Guthrie for an honest conversation about grief, resurrection, and hope that doesn’t hurry pain along. Nancy shares the story of losing two children, and how walking through profound sorrow reshaped her faith, her compassion, and her understanding of what it means to truly believe in the resurrection. Together, they explore how hope can feel distant in the midst of loss, and how to love grieving people without trying to fix them.  Thought-Provoking Quotes: “When you love someone and you know that they’re going to die… whether or not the resurrection is really true, do I have any real reason to anticipate that I will be reunited with this person that I love so much?” - Nancy Guthrie “My most succinct advice in terms of what to say or not say [to someone who is grieving] is; does it esteem their loss or diminish it? Does it say, ‘This hurts and I don’t want to make light of it.’ That would be to esteem their loss. Or does it diminish it, like, ‘It’s not really that bad?’” - Nancy Guthrie “Your healing begins when you become joined to Jesus by faith so that His resurrection life flows into your life.” - Melanie Penn “For those of us who have lost someone to death, it can feel like the end, or for those who are maybe facing death—because the only experience we’ve ever had is living in these bodies, in this world with what we can see and touch and feel. This is why we need faith. Faith is believing in what we can’t see.” - Nancy Guthrie  Links, Products, and Resources Mentioned In This Episode: Holding On to Hope by Nancy Guthrie [https://www.amazon.com/Holding-Hope-Pathway-through-Suffering/dp/1414312962] Saved by Nancy Guthrie [https://www.amazon.com/Saved-Experiencing-Promise-Book-Acts/dp/143359286X/ref=sr_1_1?crid=1XK1RHPNTC8K1&dib=eyJ2IjoiMSJ9.OFvz1cO2Wcn9ytjWn8ajO1CLX6032FyPTWkTnn6L4jTa8LPRmQMIuBf6coiTLo1ow35jILNYsAfj_Km8HamY0p68yYtPrcv-oiVYkk8rJaKzTeQ9UverorUckg2KRqlY0PE_sUAmEZfc0P2a3IrncjRBFy3aoud9kYzPGPGunlVXqxDi8R2wfBikpXYx0HxDrt3nnCdPNhnREWKY0WWfVTUE8dObc-7Mm2DhnKskZhQ.uwEcCABMGcm9b6kjjYodZULJF8aG8hpYV07Qp3ba4P4&dib_tag=se&keywords=saved+by+nancy+guthrie&qid=1769569390&s=books&sprefix=saved+by+nancy+guthrie%2Cstripbooks%2C103&sr=1-1] The Message by Eugene Peterson [https://www.amazon.com/Message-Bible-Contemporary-Language/dp/1576839168]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=59L1CkF1y98 Tim Keller’s sermon on resurrection hope [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=59L1CkF1y98] *Watch this interview on the YouTube channel [https://www.youtube.com/user/melaniepennnyc]!   *All episode music is by Melanie Penn.  Guest’s Links: Nancy Guthrie’s Website [https://www.nancyguthrie.com]  Nancy Guthrie Facebook [https://www.facebook.com/nancyguthriebibleteacher/]  Nancy Guthrie Instagram [https://www.instagram.com/nancyguthrienashville] Nancy Guthrie X [https://x.com/nancyguth3] Connect with Melanie: The Rising (Album) [https://bit.ly/47VmnjL] Website [https://www.melaniepenn.com/] Facebook [https://www.facebook.com/melaniepennsings/] Instagram [https://www.instagram.com/melaniepenn/] YouTube [https://www.youtube.com/user/melaniepennnyc] Spotify [https://open.spotify.com/artist/4WKIrizEfylpzQsdegJlfh] *The Rising Podcast is a production of Four Eyes Media [https://www.iiiimedia.com/].

Living Out Resurrection Theology: Dr. Heather Thompson Day

Does believing in life after death actually change how you live right now? Dr. Heather Thompson Day, author of What If I’m Wrong?, joins us for a deeply personal conversation about what it means to truly live out faith, especially when life doesn’t go as planned. Heather shares the emotional story of watching her father, a dedicated minister, struggle with Alzheimer’s and financial hardship—a difficult scenario that forced her to question her own ideas of success, failure, and spiritual reward. We dive into the concept of the “Upside-Down Kingdom,” challenging the worldly pursuit of applause and accolades. Heather offers powerful insights on overcoming disappointment, listening for intuition, and why giving away the last thing you have might be the key to receiving everything you need. Thought-Provoking Quotes: “It started a process of about three more years of stepping back and kind of reanalyzing this thing called the Upside-Down Kingdom, where often I truly believe what the earth praises, heaven is not impressed by, and what heaven praises the earth ignores. What does it look like? What if that thing that we think is dead, right, is actually a seed that's been planted from generation to generation? How does that change the way you view your life or your passion?” - Heather Thompson Day “We all want resurrection, none of us want death. And yet death is required for resurrection. And so how does this look in our actual lives as we dream, right, or try to provide for ourselves or go into ministry or sing or do whatever the passion is? Are we willing to suffer for and through that thing in order to be faithful?” - Heather Thompson Day “If you go through the texts of the women at the Resurrection, over and over, they felt, they saw, they touched. Those words are intentional because they are, it's showing you they were, the first witness. They had, and they would, just spend the rest of their time telling people what they had seen and heard.” - Heather Thompson Day “When I’m talking about God to somebody, I don’t tell them what I believe. I tell them what I have seen, what I’ve heard, and what I’ve experienced. I tell them what we call in the church world testimonies, right? And I would say I don’t want to spend my forties talking about my testimonies from my thirties. I want to keep having experiences with God.” - Heather Thompson Day *Watch this interview on the YouTube channel [https://www.youtube.com/user/melaniepennnyc]!   *All episode music is by Melanie Penn.  Guest’s Links: Heather Thompson Day’s website [https://www.heatherthompsonday.com/] Heather Thompson Day’s Facebook [https://m.facebook.com/HeatherThompsonDay/] Heather Thompson Day’s Instagram [https://www.instagram.com/heatherthompsonday?igsh=a3lrbHFoNXNsZDE4] Heather Thompson Day’s YouTube [https://www.youtube.com/@heatherthompsonday1] Connect with Melanie: The Rising (Album) [https://bit.ly/47VmnjL] Website [https://www.melaniepenn.com/] Facebook [https://www.facebook.com/melaniepennsings/] Instagram [https://www.instagram.com/melaniepenn/] YouTube [https://www.youtube.com/user/melaniepennnyc] Spotify [https://open.spotify.com/artist/4WKIrizEfylpzQsdegJlfh] *The Rising Podcast is a production of Four Eyes Media [https://www.iiiimedia.com/].

Room to Wonder: Perspectives on the Resurrection of Christ with Dr. Joel C. Elowsky

In this episode of The Rising Podcast, Melanie interviews Dr. Joel C. Elowsky, a distinguished theologian known for his work on the Ancient Christian Commentary on Scripture. Dr. Elowsky provides a scholarly deep dive into the resurrection narrative, particularly from the Gospel of John. Listeners will gain insights into the historical and theological perspectives of early Church Fathers on the resurrection, including their interpretations of details such as the linens left in the tomb, the appearances of angels, and Jesus’ interactions with Mary Magdalene and Thomas. This episode is perfect for those seeking a deeper understanding of the resurrection story, yet still allowing for the “wonder” of the mysteries contained within.  Thought-Provoking Quotes: “It’s interesting that Christ’s side is pierced. They didn’t pierce His heart. The fathers made a big deal about this because they go back to Genesis and they said, ‘How did God bring Eve into being? Well, He brought her into being from the side of Adam.’ And so they say just as Eve was the birth of the human race, so when Christ’s side is pierced, it’s the birth of a church, because they’re out of his side, of water and blood.” - Dr. Joel C. Elowsky “You know, this is one of the things I like to teach evangelicals about is the fact that the sacraments were actually pretty important in the life of the church. They weren’t kind of add-ons. They were God’s delivery system of His means of grace, His forgiveness. That’s one of the things you learn from the church that way, in the early ages. - Dr. Joel C. Elowsky “I kind of like that the gospel writers leave things out because I think in some ways it’s giving us an opportunity, with our sacred imagination, to just wonder, to meditate on some things and wonder. Thomas doubted, and maybe Mary didn’t. Are there allowances for people where they are? Does God allow different things at different moments, depending on what we need to overcome our doubts?” - Melanie Penn “I see John emphasizing the fact that God has an important place for women in the life of the church, to give them the honor of being the first witnesses. That's pretty amazing to me.” - Dr. Joel C. Elowsky Links, Products, and Resources Mentioned In This Episode: Drew University [https://drew.edu/] Concordia University [https://www.concordia.ca/] Center for Early African Christianity (CEAC) [https://www.earlyafricanchristianity.com/] Ancient Christian Commentary on Scripture [https://www.ivpress.com/ancient-christian-commentary-on-scripture] Easter Enigma by John Wenham [https://www.amazon.com/Easter-Enigma-Resurrection-Accounts-Conflict/dp/1597521663] Ancient Christian Doctrine Series [https://www.ivpress.com/ancient-christian-doctrine-series] On the Incarnation by Saint Athanasius [https://www.amazon.com/Incarnation-Saint-Athanasius-Popular-Patristics/dp/0881414271] Popular Patristics Series by St. Vladimir’s Press [https://svspress.com/categories/Popular-Patristics-Series/?srsltid=AfmBOorSQrIHJLL9qRQNRap4vVxylv29j-tBaLxLatrZdl6lAv5O9oCZ] Thomas C. Oden [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thomas_C._Oden]https://www.iccspress.com/ Institute for Classical Christian Studies [https://www.iccspress.com/] Systematic Theology by Thomas C. Oden [https://www.amazon.com/Systematic-Theology-3-Vol-Set/dp/1598560360] Worshiping with the Church Fathers by Christopher Hall  [https://www.ivpress.com/worshiping-with-the-church-fathers] *Watch this interview on the YouTube channel [https://www.youtube.com/user/melaniepennnyc]!   *All episode music is by Melanie Penn.  Guest’s Links: Dr. Joel C. Elowsky’s Facebook [https://m.facebook.com/joel.elowsky/] Connect with Melanie:https://bit.ly/47VmnjL T [https://bit.ly/47VmnjL]he Rising (Album) [https://bit.ly/47VmnjL] Website [https://www.melaniepenn.com/] Facebook [https://www.facebook.com/melaniepennsings/] Instagram [https://www.instagram.com/melaniepenn/] YouTube [https://www.youtube.com/user/melaniepennnyc] Spotify [https://open.spotify.com/artist/4WKIrizEfylpzQsdegJlfh] *The Rising Podcast is a production of Four Eyes Media [https://www.iiiimedia.com/].

The Resurrection Mandate: Living in the “Now and Not Yet” ft. Zach Windahl

In this episode of The Rising, host Melanie Penn chats with author and teacher Zach Windahl, who has an amazing knack for helping people really get the Bible in a simple, practical way that changes lives. Zach dives into his latest book, The Bible, Simplified, sharing his perspective on how the whole Bible tells one continuous, overarching story about how much God wants a personal connection with us. Melanie and Zach explore how ancient wisdom sheds light on the idea of a new beginning, what’s significant about the timing of Christ’s return, and how surprising moments of wonder give us a peek at something better right here on earth.  Thought-Provoking Quotes: “Something clicked for me when I understood the through line of Scripture and how it’s all one unified story instead of just a bunch of random pieces.” - Zach Windahl “God wants a relationship with His creation, and creation went their own way for many, many, years. It’s been a roller coaster of a relationship with Him, and we are now in the place of moving towards restoration and it’s already begun.” - Zach Windahl “Stories and testimonies should be repeated and talked about constantly, because I think it boosts faith in other people to believe that God could do that for me.” - Zach Windahl Links, Products, and Resources Mentioned In This Episode: The Bible, Simplified [https://www.amazon.com/Bible-Simplified-Learn-Story-Live/dp/1400252539/ref=sr_1_1?dib=eyJ2IjoiMSJ9.LY_aVCJpM6AD05kcznhBWjRqYWtmfVOtnGFAUjPuzKtC8YxymY4klgTUEAPW5fv4Jm9d_NWKPkjFSCLfe5ioozzXALl4-J_wux9uPJNpc6KgxJaN_H7-Q6YYPo1ogcQVRPGwU0C-jpJH1Og5dhyMNxdt5_ioHCs1PyrRDsmNMzRVFSItpinOIyCM3kgJTarRoQqCs7R_pqgw-RDrqvbgEu83jKC1zblo5OzYvLZ_-bA.6e-iz6yjmmpp3U0JrCPCfZALAgB1_ReVY5EcYwkzq54&dib_tag=se&hvadid=716017464916&hvdev=c&hvexpln=0&hvlocphy=9008082&hvnetw=g&hvocijid=13549948510227153994--&hvqmt=e&hvrand=13549948510227153994&hvtargid=kwd-2411711904414&hydadcr=3564_13758906&keywords=the+bible+simplified+zach+windahl&mcid=b696cfe6d9fe3c94a0292bfdf11e5a8f&qid=1761096911&sr=8-1] by Zach Windahl The Day the Revolution Began [https://www.amazon.com/Day-Revolution-Began-Reconsidering-Crucifixion/dp/0062334387] by N.T. Wright  Logos Bible Software [https://www.logos.com/] The New Bible Commentary [https://www.amazon.com/New-Bible-Commentary-Gordon-Wenham/dp/0830814426/ref=sr_1_1?dib=eyJ2IjoiMSJ9.N6UoSXxtvA6BhM8qXpAF2NhgcIB5jGkopsRg40uwFsFlUHX8wwD_pK4OyLgBHhwjBSSfj2V2Nd_Nvp9U_hY9PLoTG1c40eexFavK3OAV_hNGL2loxVerhNzHwMCr7EvKj-bSjypD-e_66at87KEpzKB24vffcqUW4YYoUU6Q9fugU-EcXqOd1JWyyMRsoo9ZXPo0bl1HTLXLawEVC1GCvTTfe5rMPewH4G7I9Yh6stc.4wT0pexNSZU_v1mttdB40hF9vyr20_3K2dioAEmGXoU&dib_tag=se&hvadid=630898156522&hvdev=c&hvexpln=0&hvlocphy=9008082&hvnetw=g&hvocijid=15758225152585125340--&hvqmt=e&hvrand=15758225152585125340&hvtargid=kwd-838208765&hydadcr=24630_13626641&keywords=the+new+bible+commentary&mcid=eb170536057b391496eeaac58c4dbf35&qid=1761097683&sr=8-1] *Watch this interview on the YouTube channel [https://www.youtube.com/user/melaniepennnyc]!   *All episode music is by Melanie Penn.  Guest’s Links: Zach Windahl’s Website [https://zachwindahl.com/] Zach Windahl’s Facebook [https://www.facebook.com/learnwithzach/] Zach Windahl’s Instagram [https://www.instagram.com/zachwindahl/?hl=en] Zach Windahl’s YouTube [https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC9mkv8kPHhvhSg4jZkoRpVg%20] Connect with Melanie: The Rising (Album) [https://bit.ly/47VmnjL] Website [https://www.melaniepenn.com/] Facebook [https://www.facebook.com/melaniepennsings/] Instagram [https://www.instagram.com/melaniepenn/] YouTube [https://www.youtube.com/user/melaniepennnyc] Spotify [https://open.spotify.com/artist/4WKIrizEfylpzQsdegJlfh] *The Rising Podcast is a production of Four Eyes Media [https://www.iiiimedia.com/].