45: It's OK to not be OK

Summer Remix: Is that fair?

For the month of June, we are bringing back some of our earlier episodes. These are episodes that we either wish had gotten a few more listens, or that were popular and we want to make sure new listeners have a chance to hear them. We will be back to our regular podcast recording schedule this summer! As Rowan and Lara know all too well, life isn’t always fair. We wish it was, but since it isn’t, we tackled ways we can make the best of situations that don’t feel just. We mostly did this with butter tart and cupboard door examples, though we didn’t always see eye to eye on some key points in said examples (don’t get Rowan started on the importance of the butter tart unless you want a debate on your hands).Let us know in the comments if you have anything to add to the conversation (about fairness OR butter tarts. Just… remember how sensitive Rowan is). Things we referenced in the episode Episode on Unexpected Change [https://unboxingit.substack.com/p/8-unexpected-change] Doo Doo’s Bakery [https://doodoos.ca/] Want more of Lara and Rowan? Rowan [https://rowanjetteknox.com/] is available for speaking engagements, and Lara [https://thebiz.studio/coaching] has coaching spots available. Transcript Please note : we don’t edit these automatically generated transcripts carefully so there may be some errors. 00:00:00] Rowan: A lot of life is things that happen to us. And a lot of what kind of joy and happiness and connection and peace that we find is how we choose to deal with those things. . Thanks for joining us on this week’s episode of Unboxing It. I’m Rowan. [00:00:41] Lara: And I’m Lara. [00:00:42] Rowan: And today we’re talking about a topic that it’s a thing that I say all the time and I have to check myself, but fairness, and you know when something happens and you go. That’s not fair. Mm-hmm. That’s not fair. Right? [00:00:58] Lara: Yeah, it’s not fair. It’s a big feeling that can be really crushing or just like veer you off when you feel it. [00:01:10] Rowan: It’s that sense of injustice for me. And I think in part, like, I wanna talk about why we chose this topic. We chose it because there’s this idea when we’re growing up, I think that life should be fair. That everything should be balanced. You know, and, I wanna preface this by saying I’m a human rights advocate, so I am all about equity. I want to see people have the same opportunities as other people, no matter who they are, where they come from. And I will continue to always fight for that, but in my own life. I can feel a sense of injustice, like it is nobody’s business. I do not like injustice when I feel that something isn’t fair. I haven’t been given a fair shake. I’ve been dealt a worse hand than somebody else. I can stew in that for days sometimes. I don’t know about you, Lara. [00:02:12] Lara: Yeah, I think it’s really easy to get into this really angry place where it’s not fair, how come I have to deal with this and you don’t have to deal with this? why am I dealt this hand? And it’s difficult to get through it when you feel like that. That’s one of those things that brings up resentment something that I think just poisons everything. Whenever you’re in a moment of resentment, I think something needs to be fixed, which is, you know, all part and parcel of this conversation. What does it mean when something isn’t fair? What do you do when something isn’t fair? Do you have to accept that life isn’t fair and just like let everybody rumble over you? Or are there solutions, like what is the solution? So I think that’s what we’re gonna get to dig into because. There’s lots of ways to look at this. There’s lots of ways to think about this. There’s a lot of ways to feel about this and I never think there’s just one way through. So we’re gonna talk about the different parts, the different strategies, the different ways to internalize all of this. [00:03:17] Rowan: Where do you think the idea, like did you get your sense of fairness? Do you think It’s taught to us by our parents. Do you think it’s taught to us by school or the media? What do you think? [00:03:29] Lara: Probably all of the above, right? again, just like all kinds of things, what we’re taught in the words and then what we see in action are not always the same, right? So like everything needs to be fair. There’s law, there’s judges, there’s rules. And so we talk about it and I think this is probably one of the ways that we get all messed up about it, is we talk about it as in everything should be fair. Everything has a way of being. Everything has rules and rights and wrongs. And then because in life that actually isn’t true, right? Like there’s so many gray areas, there’s so much wiggle room on all of the sides that what we were told doesn’t play out in real life. And so it feels like we’re making a mistake. It feels like something isn’t working when really. It was never meant to be that black and white. [00:04:23] Rowan: Ooh. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I think morals, we’re taught morals, right? The difference between right and wrong, and I. I was raised Catholic, so that was drilled into me this idea. I mean like, look what Eve did with the Apple while she broke that rule. Well, obviously they should be cast out of the Garden of Eden and suffer. Right? and that sort of permeates a lot of my thoughts around fairness. So, Again, I, want to say that privilege is a real thing and that there are people born into or find themselves in situations that are unjust. Like they don’t get, the same starting point as someone else. Like I have very, very fair skin and I do not have to deal with racism, for example. And if somebody has to deal with racism that is truly unjust, that’s not fair. And the fact that they can’t, I. Have the same opportunities sometimes, or not have them as easily as I can because of the color of their skin is not right. but I think what I wanna talk about more than that, because we have to keep fighting for equity. I, I truly believe that I. What I wanna talk about more is like when things happen to us personally, like a job loss or an illness or a breakup, or you know, just something that happens to us that maybe isn’t happening to other people around us and maybe is, nothing to do with any decisions that we have made. Any choices, any actions that can feel. Hugely unfair and I wanna explore how to deal with that. [00:06:06] Lara: Yeah. So first, again, I think you and I are very much on the same page when it comes to privilege and understanding that there are things that should be improved in this world, but when it comes to what we have control over and how we can navigate certain conversations, I think it is a really big. Important conversation and knowing that what feels unfair to us probably doesn’t feel unfair to somebody else is also important, right? Like what feels fair and unfair might not be that black and white thing. So being able to think through what we’re feeling, what other people are feeling, what the stories we’re telling are around it, and how to navigate that is part of this. [00:06:47] Rowan: I would love to know, like, can you think off the top of your head of an example of something that maybe might feel unfair to me, but feels perfectly fine for you?, Not us specifically, obviously, but like what do you have an idea of like what that might feel like? I do, I have one that I can share. And that is, I have somebody who. Talked to me recently about his job loss, and he said, you know, I lost my job and I’ve lost my job before. And I felt that was very unfair. And he lost his job. And he was like, well, that’s just the way business is sometimes. and people downsize. And honestly, I wasn’t very happy there anyway. And so it just created an opportunity for me. And he sort of went on about that, right. But I was like, wow. Like you didn’t have even a moment of being angry and he is like, no, I was more like relieved than anything. So that, I think it just depends on how you look at things sometimes, maybe. [00:07:43] Lara: Yeah. I mean, that’s a really interesting one because part of the reaction to the same situation was based on how. You felt going into it, right? So if you’re like, I didn’t really like this job anyway, what a relief that I don’t have to quit. I don’t have to tell people that I quit a perfectly good job with nothing lined up after because it wasn’t my fault because they downsized me, right? Like it becomes this freedom giving situation, whereas to somebody else who wanted to stay in that job, it does not feel like that at all. And. Is that a fair or unfair thing, or is it just a how you react to a thing that happened to you and you know, is it fair if you were downsized because honestly the company was in, a lot of financial trouble and they truly needed to downsize? Or if they downsized, you just downsized, quote unquote, as an excuse to get rid of somebody that they just. Didn’t want around anymore. And you know that, right? Like there are differences other than just straight they downsized. That would help make you feel fair or unfair. But I also think a lot of people tend to lean one way or the other, like when things happen, it’s unfair, or when things happen. I guess we figure out what comes next, right? Like there are different ways that people tend to feel and think in a common way. Does that make sense? [00:09:10] Rowan: Oh, it makes total sense. I mean, I know I started this by saying that when I feel something’s unfair, I can stew in it for days. And, that is still true to some extent. I can have these situations where I’m like, oh, it’s not fair. It’s not right, and I’m really angry about it, and I can stay there for a while that resentment can build and that’s something that I am working on as a human being. But there also have been plenty of times in my life where I have had something unfair or what I might feel is unfair happen to me and. I recognize fairly quickly that this is something that has pushed me outta my comfort zone. That’s why I’m upset about it, and that it can be, if I leverage it properly, an opportunity for personal growth. And that includes the illnesses that I have because I live with some chronic illnesses I know that chronic illnesses suck. Honestly, it’s not fun to have them. If I could wave a magic wand, I certainly would get rid of them. It’s not like I want to keep them around, but I have them. So now that I have them and there’s nothing I can do about it, and yeah, it’s not fair that I have them, I also can look at it as, what can I learn from this? What can I learn about myself? How can I challenge myself? How can I take steps to make my life better while living with this illness? And I think that is how I manage a lot of those things that happened to me that frankly would’ve knocked me down a few years ago and I would’ve not have known how to get back up. Well, it sounds like a Chumba, Womba song, but here we’re. Gen X humor, everybody. [00:10:50] Lara: There you go. And, and as you were talking, the thing I was thinking about too, that I feel most often that I get stuck in it not being fair is also health, right? Like illnesses. It’s like it’s not fair that I have been dealt the hand that I’ve been dealt. It’s not fair that some of my family members have been dealt the hand that they’ve been dealt. Like it’s not fair, but also like that’s not a thing anybody can change. like it isn’t fair, but also nobody specifically did this to us. Like it’s not a person who was like, you know what? And that they can change it. And so based on what’s true, even if it’s sucks, what do I want to feel? Do I wanna be angry about it or do I wanna figure out what to do In this case so that I don’t feel angry about it. [00:11:40] Rowan: Yeah. At the end of the day, do I want to harm myself further living with anger, living unhappily, and the answer to me is, no, no. I want to move through those feelings. I wanna acknowledge those feelings. And I think no matter how much work we do on ourselves, there’s not a second where I would say to people, oh yeah, immediately when something happens to me that is awful. I go, oh, this is a great growth opportunity. No. Now that comes after my very, very human feelings, my very immediate reaction of, no, this isn’t right. I’m so upset that this is happening. Then after that, once I allow those feelings, and I will sometimes just consciously say to myself, let the feeling move through you. Don’t hold it back. Don’t try to talk yourself out of it. Literally let it go through your body and out of your body, because if I don’t do that, it gets stuck in my body. And again, with chronic illness, that’s not something that’s good because stress could exacerbate a lot of that, right? So I have to let those feelings out and then I can pick up the pieces after everything and start working through things again. [00:12:58] Lara: I think we talked about this in our episode about unexpected change because I know somebody mentioned this whole it’s okay to feel the feelings came up then too, and I think that that is huge, that letting yourself feel the feelings that it’s okay to be upset, that it’s okay to be sad, that you don’t need to pretend you’re fine all of the time. Hugely a part of this. Let yourself have emotions. The more you let yourself have the emotions and let them be okay and let yourself sort of resolve them, the less you’re going to have that stewing mentality, right? Like, I’m not saying, okay, feel the feelings and keep them in forever. You deserve to get to do that you know, let yourself feel them and then. I believe mindset, beliefs are hugely important and if we understand that so much can be easier for us because mindset and how we step through what our life is, if we have a bad mindset, it’s harder. Like, do you know what I mean? Like all things being exactly the same. If we can figure out what we have control over and take action based on what we have control over, we can make a situation better without somebody else having to realize they were wrong without somebody else having to apologize, right? without somebody else, whoever it is having to do anything. There are some things that just based on how we feel and think about things can make our lives easier. [00:14:31] Rowan: Yeah, One of the things I had to learn and really acknowledge and it’s not a nice thing, but life isn’t fair. And I’m not saying that like my grandpa would say it, right? Well just suck it up because life isn’t fair, but truly. Truly, really, life isn’t fair. The first mindset shift for me is acknowledging that life isn’t fair and not to expect it to be fair. I can still fight for equity, I can still fight for people’s rights. I can still fight to get what I feel I deserve in life for sure. But as a general rule, if you just watch a Nature documentary and you will see it, clear as day. Life is not set up to be fair. It is set up to be challenging. For whatever reason, whether you call that, divinity or whether it’s just the universe created this chaotic planet that we live on. Life is about struggle. In part, it’s also about joy and happiness and all those things, but those things we tend to create ourselves. A lot of life is things that happen to us. And a lot of what kind of joy and happiness and connection and peace that we find is how we choose to deal with those things. [00:15:46] Lara: Yeah, I think that one of the biggest differences can also be if you think life is happening to you, I think I might have said this in a different podcast too. Is life happening to you or are you happening to life? And so you don’t have control if it’s happening to you. You have more control if you’re like, I am happening to it. So just that small difference of not feeling like you have any ability to control a situation, to thinking you do have ability, even if it’s just to be like, I’m not gonna let this ruin my day, or I’m not gonna let it ruin my year. Right? Like, it’s okay if it ruined my day, but we’re not gonna let it ruin. Everything else moving forward and deciding what you wanna do about that. Okay, so here’s a silly example, but it is one of the ones I feel like happens in our house about what’s not fair. So let’s say I bought a pack of six Butter Tarts. [00:16:37] Rowan: I love Butter Tarts. So go on. [00:16:40] Lara: There’s five people in my family, but one person doesn’t like butter Tarts, so that’s okay. So now there’s. Six butter tarts and four people, who gets a second one? [00:16:49] Rowan: Well, that’s the no, you, you send them to me. Obviously you send me the extras, but, but if you can’t do that, who does get the extra? [00:16:58] Lara: And so we have a tendency to have things like, okay, so within a certain timeframe, if you want another one ask, we’ll split it. If you were one of the four people and by day three you didn’t even eat your first one, I think you’re out. [00:17:12] Rowan: Right? Yeah. That’s the role we had in our big family too. It is. Growing up it was like that. And with my own family of six, it was like that same thing. [00:17:20] Lara: Right? But the feeling is it’s not fair that I didn’t get mine. I was like, well, it’s not fair that you left it on the counter taunting us. [00:17:28] Rowan: Right. Agreed. [00:17:30] Lara: And so what is the solution? The solution could be that if you know you really want it, that you’re gonna take it out of the box, you’re gonna put it in a container, you’ll put your name on it, and you’re gonna say, this one’s mine. I have set it aside. It’s for me. I don’t wanna eat it right now, but I know I want it. If you just assume that we’re gonna sit there and look at it for days and days and days without finally giving into the temptation of eating it because you don’t seem to want it. I think that’s on you. [00:17:55] Rowan: First of all, I don’t understand anyone who can look at a butter tarp for three days and not eat it, but, you know, [00:18:01] Lara: fair enough. [00:18:01] Rowan: You, I guess. Yeah. But yeah, I mean, it’s true, right? Like it’s about taking that action no matter what I you have to take some action. It’s also really, about knowing what you can control and what you can’t control. So I might not be able to control. That I, you know, am sick with something. But I can control what I do about that. You know, do I follow my doctor’s advice, yes or no? Do I take supplements? Yes or no? I find moments of happiness and joy and actually seek those out? Whenever I feel I need to, yes or no, do I find ways to live in ways, you know, that suit me where I’m at today, yes or no? Those are all things that I have control over and they make the situation feel less unjust, right? It makes me feel like I am still living with the situation that I have been presented with the things that I can’t control. [00:18:59] Lara: Yeah. And if you believe that some of the things are happening to you, we’re gonna go back to the butter Tarts for a minute, but if you believe that the fact that somebody ate the Butter Tart that was supposed to be yours was really disrespectful and really rude and unkind, [00:19:15] Rowan: I mean it is, but go on.. [00:19:15] Lara: You’re gonna be like, angry and full of like, like this? And you think they really wanted it, and they figured I didn’t. And both of those scenarios could happen, right? With nothing being different. The person who didn’t get a Butter Tart could feel really angry and resentful and feel like other people were being unfair to them. Or they could be like, oh, I guess I didn’t get one. maybe next time I’m gonna say, you know what, last time I didn’t get any, I’m gonna get an extra one. Whether or not that works out in the Battle of the Butter Tarts is another conversation. But you like, that’s a thing you could say in response. [00:19:55] Rowan: Exactly. you’re bringing up a really sensitive topic for me. [00:19:58] Lara: The Butter Tarts. I know. I’m sorry. [00:20:00] Rowan: I mean, that would be a situation that challenged me. There’s this place, , about an hour. I’m, I’m going off on a journey now. There’s this place about an hour from Toronto East called Dodos Bakery. Shout out Dodos Bakery. It’s in the middle of nowhere, and you pull up and they have truly the best butter tars I’ve ever had. But you don’t even have to take my word for it, because there is literally a wall. Of awards like medals, medal after medal after, pin, after trophy. I mean, it’s so impressive because of Butter Tarts are freaking amazing. They’re so good. If somebody ate my butter Tart because I didn’t eat it for a day or two, my dooo butter tart. there would be war in my house. There would be war. Because I’d be like, no, you should all know that I love Butter Tarts and how dare you not check in with me. there, there are just, there are just some things you can’t control my friend and that might be one of them. [00:20:59] Lara: Yeah. Again, I wanna be like, did you buy the Butter Tarts? If you bought the Butter Tarts? Then people should understand that they are mostly your butter tarts. [00:21:08] Rowan: This, this is actually an episode on Butter Tarts. It’s not, [00:21:11] Lara: It’s an episode on butter tarts.. [00:21:13] Rowan: It’s actually just about butter. Oh. What is a butter tart for people who are not Canadian? Okay. Think. Pecan pie or a sugar pie or something along those lines. Butter tarts. They’re a Canadian staple. They’re very sweet. They’re made with like maple syrup and butter, and they have a nice little crust and they’re delicious. Yeah, definitely look them up. They’re yummy, yummy, yummy. And sometimes they have things like pecans and sometimes they have raisins, and there’s a lot of debate about that. But that is a whole different episode. [00:21:42] Lara: Yeah, because it isn’t actually an episode about Butter Tarts. It’s just a really you know, what I liked about the Butter Tart example is it really isn’t super consequential, right? So if we think about life and fairness, okay, I’m sorry Rowan’s face, for those who can’t see it disagrees that butter tarts, not that consequential. [00:22:01] Rowan: Very consequential, [00:22:04] Lara: but it’s not like a high stakes. Situation, right? Like losing a job. But we still can get really upset about it. And when we talk through like the littler things and what it means to us and how we feel about it and why we feel that way, because some of it, when it’s not fair takes on. That’s what the whole stories we tell the meaning now is, you don’t respect me. You think you’re more important than me, or you don’t even think about me. And so that is a really big meaning you’re putting on, you ate my Butter Tart. [00:22:37] Rowan: Yep. [00:22:38] Lara: And sometimes you can think about it with these small examples because when you think about the big examples, the feelings, imagine, right? If you feel that way about somebody eating your butter tart, if you’re talking about something. Way more consequential in your life. It’s gonna be even more filled with emotions and harder to sort of see the other side. [00:22:57] Rowan: Well, we kind of, you know, I had a roommate at one point who, wouldn’t do the dishes. not always. Sometimes they would do the dishes, but most of the time I would be doing the dishes and. It was very easy for a while for me to look at that as, this person doesn’t care. This person just doesn’t care if it’s messy. This person doesn’t respect me. I have made it clear that this is really important to me, that I can’t be doing this all the time. That we have to share that. You know? And I kind of went on about, and I created this whole story in my head about how this person, I think towards the end of it, it was like they get up, they throw their dishes on the counter. And they kinda go, eh, who gives a crap? And then they just like, you know, and it’s like, because they just don’t care at all. But I don’t wanna speak too much for this person, but like, they had other things going on. There were a lot of other things going on, mental health things you know, and neurodivergence and, things that sort of made it so that they were not looking at chores in the house in the same way that I was. It had nothing to do with how they saw me, how much they respected me or didn’t how much they cared about our home or didn’t. It had everything to do with where, they were in life. And was it fair that I had to clean up more than they did? No, it wasn’t fair. In a very fair situation, we’d be doing half and half, but it wasn’t because they were trying to get away with something and they were carrying a very big load in their own life. And it was, you know, honestly, once I realize that so much easier, just go, oh, you know what? They’re not able to get to it today. I’ll do it. I think it can be very easy when things don’t feel fair to fall into a victim mentality. [00:24:49] Lara: Mm-hmm. [00:24:50] Rowan: When we tell ourselves all those stories, all the things you were saying, all the things I was just saying, , that’s a victim mentality. Right. To stay stuck in it is a victim mentality and approaching life from that. Standpoint from a lot of experience is one of the worst things you can do because it doesn’t make anything more fair. It just makes you feel a whole lot worse. [00:25:13] Lara: And I agree with everything right down to, you know, somebody not even realizing they’re doing something. But knowing that somebody might receive it as a very intentional slight, right. So I told you that it’s important for me to do the dishes, and if you don’t do them, it feels disrespectful. And the other person being like, I didn’t do the dishes right. Like, as clear as Oh.. so one of the things I remember I was very lucky. I had a roommate for a couple of years and we didn’t. Have a lot of conflict. But I remember one day she was like, why do you leave all of the cabinet doors open all the time? And I was like, I do. Right? Like it wasn’t like intentionally being like, how about I make this kitchen look silly with all of the cabinet doors open so you can see inside and then just being in the way. It’s like for me, I opened it, I took the thing, and then like I was done and no part of me remembered to close it. And I know that other people feel this way. And it’s so funny now every time I walk into my kitchen and every single cabinet door is open, because I know it was probably multiple of my family members came into multiple cabinets. None of them remembered to close the cabinet doors. And it was, it’s such a big thing that I know happens in my family that when we had our big renovation, I said, are there self-closing cabinets? And she said, no. Very disappointed. [00:26:35] Rowan: And you know what? My partner does that too. I always know when she’s been in the kitchen, because there is at least. One cabinet or one drawer that’s left open. And I also go around the house and turn off lights after she’s been in a room. The other day I asked her to turn off the light in the bathroom. Our bathroom has multiple lights. There’s like a light for around the vanity. There’s a light above the bathtub and there’s a light in the shower. And she said, no problem. I’ll turn off the lights when I’m done. So I left afterwards and I, went downstairs and said, I’m very proud of you. You turned off the lights. The vanity lights. You did however, leave on the light above the bathtub, the light in the shower. That’s okay. Because you thought to yourself, I don’t want Rowan to have to run around and turn off all the lights. You forgot a couple, but I really appreciate that you did that. I could have turned around and been like. You left the lights on again. You know, like, it’s such a small thing in the grand scheme of things, but it’s just an example of like, I saw that and I went, she really did try, you know, like she really did try and I appreciate that she made the effort, even if I had to still go and turn off the lights after, [00:27:53] Lara: because I think a lot of the time, probably not all of the time, but a lot of the time, the thing that. Doesn’t feel fair is also about feeling disrespectful, right? Like, that person doesn’t respect me enough to do this thing. And if that’s not actually the case, right? Like it just, it lets you take some of the gasoline out of the fire when you think, okay. Yeah, this isn’t fair, but what can we do? And so, and the other is the what can we do, right? I mean, the perfect solution would’ve been those self-closing cupboards that I said I wanted, right? Yes. Like what can we do? Like, have them all close themselves, right? Like every 20 minutes if there’s still open, like close ‘em. Fantastic. It could be that, you know, splitting chores in a way where it’s, , you know what, I’ll do all the dishes, but can you do all the garbage? And in that situation, maybe the other person doesn’t mind doing the garbage. It’s easy for them to do it. You don’t mind doing the dishes. They hate doing it. Like, what is the solution that you can find where it doesn’t have to be, you know, that, image, you probably have seen it where the imagery is like a fence and you’re looking over at, let’s say a baseball game and everybody has a like one foot step stool to look over the fence. But one of you is five feet tall. One of you is six feet tall, and one of you is seven feet tall. Very tall people. [00:29:14] Rowan: That’s Bigfoot at that point, by the way. [00:29:16] Lara: But there are seven feet tall people, foot tall people. [00:29:18] Rowan: I suppose it’s true. [00:29:19] Lara: But standing on the step stool is not gonna do the same thing if the fence is six and a half feet tall and you stood on a one foot step stool, [00:29:30] Rowan: right. And [00:29:31] Lara: you’re five foot tall. So it’s not all about just doing what’s equal and what’s fair isn’t always just what’s equal. [00:29:41] Rowan: That’s right. That’s right. [00:29:42] Lara: And so. When you think about it and when you think like, how do I adjust for a person, if I feel like it’s not fair that something is happening, can we adjust it so that it works for both of us? Most of the time people aren’t trying to be shitty to you. Like I know sometimes they are, but most of the time it’s not intentionally shitty. It’s, well, this is what works for me. [00:30:07] Rowan: That’s right. A lot of the feelings that come about when it comes to fairness have to do with the story we’re telling ourselves. So what can really help me on top of, you know, before I’m able to calm down enough to come up with solutions, and you have some very good solutions there. What helps me is. Asking myself, what do I know is true about this situation and what am I making up right? So what I know is true, for example, in the case of the roommate, is the dishes are not being done equally. I am doing most of the dishes. Everything else is something that I’m telling myself that is a story. now, I could also say, and my roommate is home a lot more than I am, and still the dishes are not being done. That part might also be true. I have also talked to my roommate and things have not gotten better. Also true, but any feelings, any assumptions that I’m making about why the dishes aren’t being done. That’s all made up or how that reflects upon me and how this person sees me also made up, right? So I have to remove all of the emotion and just look at the facts. And if I look at the facts, it takes the edge off. And then I can start finding out why. Now, why isn’t this happening? Why not? What I’ve made up in my head, I’m not gonna go to the person and go, and you just don’t care enough to do this, right? Because that’s, I don’t know that. I’ll use another example. So as a bigger person, and we talked about this on our fatness episode, but as a larger person. I was taught for a long time by society, by medical professionals, pretty much that anything that happens that is bad in my body is because I’m a bigger person. Mm-hmm. So, you know, I broke out in a rash recently, this like really awful rash all over my arms and my first thought was it’s because I’m not taking care of myself. Right. that’s not helpful. Like that’s not gonna help me, right? So I have to be able to step back and go, no. What’s actually going on? All I know is I broke out in this rash. Is it because of something I’m doing? I don’t know. Is it because of something I’m not doing? I don’t know. And it turned out it was an infection that really had nothing to do with me, but for like three or four days, I had convinced myself this was somehow my fault and I had to fix it. And finally my partner was like, can you just go to the doctor and stop being a stubborn man? Like, just go to the doctor. The doctor’s like, here’s some antibiotics. And then it went away, right? But that’s the story of this. Stories are so powerful, and that’s an example of how I suffered for another several days because I assumed it was me and I could somehow fix the problem by treating my body better. So when we’re talking about. How to look at a situation, whether it is fairness or anything else. It’s really important to take the story element out. [00:33:16] Lara: Yeah, the story is huge and , let’s say what you think is happening is even true. we’re gonna talk about dishes some more. Podcast episode about Butter Tart and dishes. And I once was talking to somebody who really wanted their partner to do more of the dishes and she said when they do the dishes, they like clank around and they seem really hostile. And so then I end up taking back over and I was like, well, what if you just decide that they really like doing dishes aggressively? And leave them alone to do it how they want, the responsibility of them doing the dishes and being happy about it, like Right. Versus doing the dishes because you asked them to. Right. Like, that’s two different asks and it, they don’t have to enjoy it for it to be fair that they did it. [00:34:06] Rowan: Yeah. That’s the other thing, like, don’t make other people’s emotions your responsibility. Obviously we don’t wanna hurt anybody, right? Like, I don’t wanna go outta my way to make someone feel bad, but people don’t have to like the work that they do around the house either. I don’t exactly like the work I do around the house. but I do it. So I think that’s a really good point. you’re just smart. Except for the butter tart thing. ‘cause I, I do still, I disagree with you there, that that’s a very serious injustice. When somebody does eat the butter tarts that are supposed to be yours. But I digress. fairness. life is not fair. But I think if I’ve taken anything out of this episode, it’s to r emind myself when I feel that things are unfair, take a step back and take my own advice and yours and really pay attention to the story I’m telling myself around the perceived injustice, and also feel my feelings and then do what I can about it. [00:35:13] Lara: Yeah, I think that’s great. This has been a good conversation. I would like to invite people to come into the comments on our substack and tell us if you have anything to add to it. Something that I have very much enjoyed since we launched the podcast is all the people who come to me and tell me. I was listening to this episode and I was thinking this, and I have this thought and I had this counterpoint, and so I love that the podcast is getting people thinking. And I wanna keep hearing from more people what it is that it’s getting them thinking. ‘cause I think that will be fodder for more episodes and follow up episodes. [00:35:47] Rowan: Absolutely. I would love to do an episode where we get people’s thoughts on other episodes their ideas, their takes on things, and talk about those because we don’t know everything. We’re just two people. [00:36:00] Lara: With lots of thoughts! [00:36:01] Rowan: We have lots of thoughts. You have even more thoughts, so please do share them with us, and thank you for joining us on this episode. This is a public episode. If you'd like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit unboxingit.substack.com/subscribe [https://unboxingit.substack.com/subscribe?utm_medium=podcast&utm_campaign=CTA_2]

45: It's OK to not be OK

How many times have you had this exchange? ”Hi, how are you today?” “Good. How are you?” “I’m well, thank you.” We do this largely inauthentic dance every time we’re out in the world. We ask how someone is doing. They’re supposed to answer that they’re good. They ask that question back and our answer is expected to be the same. We don’t generally deviate from the script or things can get awkward. But are you good? I mean, are you even okay with everything happening right now? Probably not. And frankly, neither are we. In this episode, we chat about the importance of not only admitting we’re not okay, but learning to live with that. It might sound pessimistic, but we promise you it isn’t. Because maybe life is about finding some happiness in the midst of all the ick, and that doing so makes it even sweeter when we find it. Links Transcript [00:00:00] Lara: It is not restful to sit on the couch doing nothing, but also worrying about all the things that you were supposed to do and feeling guilty that you’re not doing them. That is not restful. Welcome to Unboxing It. I’m Lara. [00:00:37] Rowan: And I’m Rowan. [00:00:38] Lara: And today, Rowan, I’m wondering, are you okay? [00:00:41] Rowan: No. [00:00:42] Lara: No. [00:00:44] Rowan: No, I’m not okay. It- that’s all right to say, right? Like, No. I mean, am I okay enough to function? Yes. Am I okay overall? No. Yeah. Who is right now? [00:00:54] Lara: Exactly. Who is right now? And so that’s why today we’re gonna talk a little bit about why it’s okay to not be okay, because I don’t think, generally speaking, we think it’s okay to not be okay. And I will always remember having somebody react really negatively to that statement, because they felt like it was giving people permission to give up. And instead, what I think it’s okay to not be okay means is you don’t have to pretend everything’s okay. You get to still feel your feelings. You still get to just admit what’s going on with you and figure out what comes next. It doesn’t mean, permission to crawl into a hole and never come out again. [00:01:44] Rowan: This is built right into our society. . I mean, I know, because I make this exchange with people sometimes hundreds of times a day as a barista, right? People come into my coffee shop, I’m at the counter, and we ask each other how we are. And the correct response, societally speaking, is, “I’m doing well. How are you?” “I’m good. I’m great.” Right? you’re supposed to tell people you’re doing well. That is the expectation. I’ve stopped doing that, by the way. If I am doing well, I say it. And if I’m not, I say, “I’m okay,” or, “It’s been a bit of a day, but here I am,” right? Or whatever. Like, I will actually respond authentically, which I think has given them permission to respond to me authentically, too. I’ve had some really lovely short but meaningful exchanges, just by answering honestly. [00:02:41] Lara: And I don’t know that I always answer honestly, but I’ve stopped saying good, right? “How are you?” “ I’m all right.” Yeah. Which generally means, I’m coping. I think that’s what that means, right? I’m moving through life. I am surviving. We are okay. Not to say- Everything is terrible all of the time, but there is a lot of times where there’s a lot going on, and I don’t feel, quote-unquote, “good,” so I’m not gonna say it. [00:03:08] Rowan: I don’t know a lot of people who feel good right now. It’s not like we haven’t had problems in the world before. Of course, we’ve had problems. We’ve had tons of problems, but I think in our generation at least, and you know, you and I are Gen X, we did have things like the Cold War, and we’ve had wars, we’ve had upsets, we’ve had a lot of things, but we have lived in a relatively stable time, and now w- the world is descending into fascism. and again, I don’t want to say that these things haven’t happened in parts of the world. I’m just saying in Western society in the last little while, it wasn’t awful Mm-hmm until now. Now it’s awful. - and we’re Canadian, and right now, people can feel how they wanna feel about our politics, but we do have a majority government right now that is not a fascist regime. So I’m happy about that. I feel that gives us some level of protection. But there’s so much more happening. so on top of our regular lives and all of the stressors that we all have to some extent, ailing parents, kids, friendship issues, relationship issues, chronic illnesses, all these different things that are going on, job security, whatever might be happening , in our day-to-day lives, we also have this undercurrent of political upheaval that is frankly terrifying. There are parts of the world running out of fuel right now. And I don’t know. I don’t know a single person who has just completely ignored all of that. Even if you try to just shut it off, it’s there in the background, and frankly, not that I wanna get too woo-woo about this, but the energy is there. You can feel it in people. You can feel it when you’re in a crowd. We know what’s going on, and we have that common understanding of it, and I think it is weighing a lot of us down. [00:05:10] Lara: For sure. I think it wasn’t just at COVID, because there were a few years before COVID where it wasn’t fantastic, but I feel like since COVID in particular, there’s just always something. There’s always something stressful to ponder, to think, “What’s gonna happen next?” To think, “ What’s going on?” And there’s a lot of people Who have had COVID, who have long COVID, who are struggling with more health problems than they had before. there’s just a lot. There’s just a lot, and I think that if we pretend that there’s not a lot, we’re not doing ourselves any service. And I will say this because I also like to say to people like, “Why are you being so negative,” right? So there’s a balance between pretending everything’s okay and only thinking about what’s negative and focusing on the negative. I think that things can be not particularly okay, but you can still look for the positive side of things, and that’s where I think this balance of saying I’m not okay doesn’t mean I’m giving up, but it does acknowledge that things are not fantastic for me right now, right? That I am having a hard time, and it’s easier to get support when you admit that to yourself and when the people around you know that’s true. [00:06:30] Rowan: And I think that some of us deal with some mental health issues that are pervasive and are activated. They flare up like any other kind of chronic illness, if you wanna look at it that way. I do kinda look at my CPTSD and anxiety disorder as chronic illnesses. I’ve had them my whole life. I manage them like any other illness. I have tools at my disposal. But there are times when they really do flare up, like an autoimmune disorder or something like that, where there’s a few days or a few weeks or a few months where it’s particularly bad, and it makes it harder to function. So, I don’t need to explain what generalized anxiety disorder is. But, it is basically that your anxiety is to a point where it really does affect your daily life, and it can take various forms. I’ve had it flip more towards OCD. I’ve had it flip more towards health anxiety or somatic health anxiety, somatic anxiety. So something’s wrong with my body. I have to check all my symptoms. I’ve talked about that before. And then I also have CPTSD, which is complex post-traumatic stress disorder, and that is brought on from what were years of trauma. So- Repeated trauma. We know about PTSD, where PTSD is, maybe you had one frightening, one really traumatic incident where you feared for your life or a short burst of incidences inside of, a short time, say you were at war for a few months or whatever it might be, right? And then you develop PTSD. So it’s like that, but it’s more repeat traumatic events over time, usually spanning years. And so that’s what I have had since childhood, and, that is what I have to manage on a daily basis. Some days I barely notice it’s there, and other days something will happen and it throws my nervous system into chaos. It’s gotten a lot better. I’ve done a lot of therapy for it, but the nervous system is the nervous system, and mine is constantly on higher alert than the average nervous system, and it is, lately I would say on much higher alert. Some of that has to do with my own life, things that have happened in my own life over the last little while, including starting a new business and all of the stress that comes with that. But also just the world, right? It’s hard to feel safe when it feels like we’re in danger all the time, where things can just flip over into terrible at any moment. so some of us who already have those issues, they get worse. And yet, I still have to function. I’m a business owner, so I can’t just nope out, right? if I need to go to work, I have to go to work. I can’t just call in sick. If I need to go run an errand, I have to go run an errand. It doesn’t matter how I’m feeling. And that is not the best way to be, but it is something that I’ve had to tell myself so many times, “It’s okay that you don’t feel 100% right now. It’s okay that you don’t feel great right now, but you still have to get this done.” And there’s a balance, right? Because I think we went from when we were younger, Lara, as Gen Xers, I think we went from, you know, you don’t talk about this stuff. You don’t talk about your feelings. Mental health’s not really a thing. ... You know, people who had mental health issues, those are the people that got, locked up in hospitals. that was a mental health issue. You can’t function at all. Anybody else, just push through it. Just push through it and you’ll be fine. And that was really unhealthy. Really unhealthy. but then we have the other side of things where I think- pendulum swing, and I’ve watched this happen so many times in my life. The pendulum swings all the way over here, then it swings all the way to this other extreme, and then hopefully we land somewhere in the middle. I think we also went through the self-help era, which was great in its own way and problematic in its own way, but I had so many self-help books. And a lot of them basically taught me, like, no, you can’t function at all. There was a time where it was like, “No, if you have anxiety, you have anxiety, , that’s an illness. That’s a disease. you just need to,take time and,” not curl up in a ball, but you know, it was like, if you’re having any kind of anxiety, like, the messaging sometimes was like, “You shouldn’t work. You shouldn’t go to school. You should just take 100% of your time and focus on that.” And I think that can be, in its own way, at that extreme, very unhealthy. I think a short time of that if needed, yes. But I’ve learned that I need to still function to some extent, but also be gentle with myself while I function. [00:11:34] Lara: Yeah. Well, and I think that’s the big distinction, right? To me, if I am not in the state where I can no longer function, right? Like, those who are hospitalized because they cannot function, right? that’s, the extreme. [00:11:50] Rowan: Yeah. [00:11:51] Lara: If I’m not that, then I must be okay. Right? Like,it’s the, internal, “I must be okay, therefore I’m going to pretend I’m okay. I’m going to ignore that I’m not okay. I’m going to pretend that nothing else is going on, even though...” But I have learned that if you do that, your body will catch up with you. I once went through a phase where I was like, “Why can I not turn my head, to the left anymore?” Like, at all. Why do I feel like my heart’s about to beat out of my chest 24/7? And it was, there was so much stress that I was ignoring, and my body was like, “You know what? If you’re not gonna listen to the other signals we’ve given you, we’re going to raise the bar and make sure you have to.” [00:12:35] Rowan: Oh, the body will give out. It will absolutely give out. Yesterday we tried to record this podcast episode, and I couldn’t do it. I was just having a really bad day. And I said, “Lara, could we maybe just chat today, and I can offload some of this. I can share all of these stressors that I have going on in my life right now?” And then we can reconvene tomorrow and record.” And you were so gracious, and you said, “Absolutely.” And I’m in a much better head space to do it because I gave myself the time. I actually took a day off yesterday. I didn’t work. and I think that’s what I needed. because even though I love this podcast, there’s still... I have to be on for it, right? I have to be thinking. I have to be activated in some way, and I just wasn’t there. And so allowing ourselves some grace where we can, that’s important, and that’s why... I mean, I still did what I needed to do. For example, it was my daughter’s birthday yesterday. Dani and I took our kiddo out. We, went to the movies, And was I feeling 100% in my head? No. But also, it was really important to see her for her birthday, right? So of course we were gonna do that. So thatwas a need. That was going to happen. podcasting wasn’t a need. That was something that I could put off and do another day when I felt better. And so functioning when you’re not okay can look like that, where you make choices. You know, it’s like I’m, gonna do this, but I’m not gonna do this. And that’s what I often tell myself when I’m in those spaces. I make a list in my head of the things that I need to do today or that I think I need to do today. And then I go, “What do I actually need to do? What do I actually have the bandwidth for today?” And if I don’t have the bandwidth for it, and it needs to get done, no question, then I’m gonna have to find a way. Maybe I’m delegating, but I need to find a way to get that done, but I will not do the things that I don’t need to do, and that’s all right. That is just part of functioning when you’re not 100%. [00:14:39] Lara: Yeah, and it’s that all or nothing thing, right? I’m great or I’m non-functional. Those are not the only two ways of being, but we often only allow ourselves those two options. So if I’m not falling apart, then I must be able to do everything as usual and go above and beyond at every moment because I am not having a nervous breakdown. But there’s more to it than that, and part of the reason I thought this would be a good conversation is because I’m doing it to myself, even when I have decided that it’s okay to slow down or I have made choices to slow down or to do something or to not do something, I find myself very quickly getting pulled back into, “ But I should, but I should, but I should. What will I do next?” What is the sort of... That rat racy feeling of I have to do more- comes up from inside me with no permission from me to try to get me going again. And it’s a bit of a fight internally for me to allow myself to find that middle ground. [00:15:50] Rowan: Part of that can be the nervous system too. When the nervous system is activated, when it’s in its vigilant state where it’s watching for danger, it can be really hard to just rest. and I know this from personal experience where I will try to do something like watch a 15-minute YouTube video, and I can’t get through it without checking my phone ‘cause I can’t pay attention or I can’t get through while sitting. I have to get up and do something else. These are signs you know, we call that nervous energy and that’s exactly what it is. It is nervous energy. But paying attention to those signals, I’ve learned, is really important. So if I can’t focus, I’m probably more anxious than I realize. If I can’t sit, I’m probably more anxious than I realize. If I only can watch things, this is an interesting one. If I can only watch things that have a lot of action or a lot of danger, that is often my nervous system wanting to stay activated. Which I never realized before. Like, I love horror movies. Love them. And I mean, they’re fun. Lots of people love horror movies, but- [00:17:09] Lara: Not me [00:17:10] Rowan: Okay, not you. A lot of people love them. and I am a big fan, but there are times when I can’t watch anything but horror movies because my nervous system is like, “Stay vigilant, stay alert, stay alert. This will keep us focused, okay? Because this is gonna keep us in the state, and if we don’t watch this, if we watch something that’s calmer, even if it’s interesting, I can’t stay interested.” So that’s a signal for me too. there are things that I do, somatic exercises that I do that help my nervous system calm down. And so when I notice that stuff is happening, I actually do the exercises first because then I can actually focus. The nervous system is weird, and that’s another thing that I don’t think we always realize is that the nervous system doesn’t respond to talking very much. It’s too old for that. it’s like the oldest part of our body in terms of, development. it’s the one that runs on instinct the most. And so- It needs physical signs that we’re safe. So sighing and deep breaths and,gentle massages that you can do. And you can look these up. We can put links actually, ‘cause I have a bunch of them. But there are, like, ear massages you can do that are really gentle , that hit the vagus nerve. there are eye exercises that you can do where you tilt your head and you kinda look up, and that will calm the nervous system in a lot of people. this isn’t me giving therapy advice, it’s just me letting you know what works for me. I can’t give therapy advice. I’m not a therapist. But these are things that I’ve learned over time save me a lot of those heart palpitations , and just, like, shallow breaths, that nervousness that I can’t sleep and I can’t sit. I do that instead. And doing those things to let myself know, “Hey, it’s okay. We’re safe. we can just step down a little bit and relax,” that will allow me to get through my day a little better. [00:19:04] Lara: Yeah. and I think it’s really a good idea to learn to do that. Because for me, I will often not have the energy to do things, but if I don’t calm my nervous system, if I don’t really let myself rest, because there’s a difference between not doing anything and rest that is restorative. It is not restful to sit on the couch doing nothing, but also worrying about all the things that you were supposed to do and feeling guilty that you’re not doing them. That is not restful. you just collapsed, and you’re feeling terrible about it, and you’re not allowing yourself any, room to be okay with that happening. You’re just like, “I need to rest. I need to be here as short an amount of time as I can so that I can start going again,” versus truly letting yourself find rest. And I think most of us have no idea how to do that easily. [00:19:58] Rowan: You know what else isn’t restful? Is arguing with people on the internet while you sit on the couch drinking coffee, because I did that today. That is a big cue for me, that I’m not okay, is that I will seek out that kind of negative engagement. Somebody was being really transphobic with me and using religion as their reason for being transphobic, which does not fly with me whatsoever. And engaged, and I don’t normally engage. And then I sat there and I refreshed, and I refreshed waiting for his response, and then he would respond And then I would engage again, right? And every time I do that, that’s a nervous system activation, right? Every time I do that, I’m going into this hypervigilant, stressful altercation. Because even though I know bro is in another country and he would never say these things to my face, and even if he did, I would be able to handle it, no problem, in my body, my body’s like, “Danger. Danger, danger, danger. Attack. Attack, danger,” right? So I’m not resting, and I seek these things out when I’m really not okay. Like I know, I know I do that. Like okay, yeah, he came to find me. He came to my house basically, and he knocked on the door, proverbially, and he wanted to have that altercation, but I... And did I put him in his place? Of course I put him in his place. Did I talk circles around him? Of course I talked circles around him. And did I feel a little morally superior after? Yes. But did I feel calmer? No. I didn’t feel calmer. I felt more activated. Right? I need to learn to see these signs earlier, because then I make myself even less okay than I was before, right? Why? And did it teach him anything? No, of course it didn’t teach him anything. Is he still gonna be terrible to people? Of course he is. It did not help. I am pretty sure he wasn’t a bot. I’ve argued with bots before, and then I kick myself ‘cause I’m like, “That was not a real person.” I think this was genuinely a real person, but it doesn’t matter. He doesn’t care. but also, I’m not gonna beat myself up over it. I’m not gonna worry about it. I’m just gonna let it go, because beating myself up over it is just gonna make it even harder for me. So I’m gonna recognize that was a symptom of me not being at my best. I do have to be at my best. After I do this podcast, I have to go give a talk, and then I have to go to work for a few hours and be amongst people, be amongst human beings, and treat them well, and make them good coffee, and pour them good wine. So I have to do this. so yeah, I can’t be taking on the world. I can’t be expending my limited, especially lately, time and energy on things that I don’t need to be spending it on that bring me no joy and no peace. Because isn’t that the trick, right? When we have those free moments, finding things that bring us joy and/or peace is paramount [00:23:15] Lara: Yeah. And like so many of the things we talk about, the thing I hope people take away from this conversation is that they can start to notice when they’re not allowing themselves to be okay, when they are trying to push through things when they don’t have to, right? it’s the little things, not some kind of, “Well, change everything about how you react to stress from now on.” Like, that is not what we’re saying. It’s very much just if you find yourself trying to push when you don’t need to and when you feel terrible, like maybe , once or twice don’t, and see how it goes. Like, start to allow yourself the freedom to not be productive all the time if you don’t need to be, to really figure out what is restful for you and do that. And that’s why I think it’s okay to say, “It’s okay you’re not okay,” so that you have the freedom to do that, right? If you don’t let yourself be not okay, then you’re not going to take the time for these things because you think you’re okay. and when you can allow yourself access to what’s not working, you can also allow yourself access to things that will help. [00:24:32] Rowan: Kindness, gentleness, and love. I think those are the three words I remind myself the most, the three actions that I take. Love as an action, kindness as an action, gentleness as an action. When I approach myself in the moments where I’m not at my best and I would normally kick myself for it, instead I go, “ How would I treat somebody else that I love with the same feelings I’m having right now?” And I always think to myself, I would treat them kindly and gently, right? Take care of them. So it’s not about making these sweeping changes like you were saying. change often comes gradually. It comes in these little steps where maybe we choose a different thing this time, and maybe the next four or five times we don’t choose that, we forget to or, it just doesn’t register that we should be doing that. And then we remember again, then we do it. And then maybe we add something else. Maybe there’s another action that we can take, and it’s also gentle and it’s kind. Patience too, right? Patience. We are hardest on ourselves when we’re not okay, for sure. And that serves no purpose. I often think we speak to ourselves, our inner critic is often repeating things we were told when we were younger by someone in our lives that really stuck with us, right? That you need to be productive. You can’t just sit there. You can’t just sit there like a... remember the term bump on a log? ‘Cause I do. [00:26:11] Lara: Mm-hmm, yeah. [00:26:12] Rowan: Like, a bump on a log. - You know, and do nothing , or, you gotta try harder, or, what, are you stupid? what’s wrong with you? Like, any time my inner critic goes, I go, “ At one point somebody said these things to me, and at one point I internalized them as the way I should be speaking to myself, and as the way that that’s like my life manager now. Well, that’s a shitty life manager. That’s a toxic life manager. So I try really hard now to approach myself with kindness, gentleness, and love. [00:26:46] Lara: Yeah. And I’ll say this. I think a lot of us grew up thinking gentle doesn’t work, right? gentle is not the way to do things. I remember gentle parenting coming in and people being like, “Ha ha, those people are kooky and that’s never gonna work.” And I think there’s a lot of, and I still see it in some places, “We need to whip them into shape,” like the gentleness does not work, but I think they’re wrong. Gentleness can work, and it can make a difference, and it can create change, and it can be curative. And so if you think, “I just need to whip myself into shape. I just need to stop letting myself, feel sorry for myself. I just need to,” then a little gentleness and coming at it from a different direction can make a big difference. [00:27:38] Rowan: Yeah, and look, mindset shifts are great, right? We talked about that. There’s also ways to look at our lives that are not really negative. one of the worst people I ever knew taught me something that was really positive that I kept with me, so go figure. but, they said to me, “ Don’t say I have to. Say I get to.” Now, that doesn’t work all the time, right? [00:28:06] Lara: Or I want to. [00:28:08] Rowan: Or I want to, right? And I get to- Resonates with me better because it reminds me,it’s like, “Oh, I have to go to work.” No, I get to go to work. I get to go to work because I have employment, because my body allows me to go to work, because, whatever it might be, right? Or like It sounds ridiculous, but like I get to take out the trash, right? But that’s because today my back is not so sore that I’m able to take out the trash. or like I get to make dinner. Like I actually have food that I’m able to cook with, right? so I use it that way. And it, has changed my mindset a bit and that does lift me out sometimes of a funk. Like it really- ... does pick me up a bit. I don’t think mindset gets you out of every mental health issue that you have though. Like again- I don’t think that’s going to cure my nervous system of CPTSD. But does it help sometimes that I remember that I have a lot to be grateful for? Yeah, it does. I mean, when I’ve been depressed in the past, it certainly hasn’t cured my depression. Just going for a walk hasn’t cured my depression. But I will say whenever I’m in a bad state of mind, if I can manage to get out for a walk, it usually helps me, right? It’s not the cure, but it does pick me up a bit, so I think there’s like these little nuances where we can exist in that space of not really totally being okay, but also finding things that work for us that, help us be a little more okay. [00:29:44] Lara: Yeah. And, as much as I have a bunch of days where I don’t feel okay, I also feel like I will be okay. And I also feel like I can keep going to a certain extent. And again, it’s just a balance. it’s trying to figure out where in the middle do I wanna be on any given day because the two extremes are not like fantastic and that’s just true and I don’t want to have a nervous breakdown. Where in the middle will I land and accept that I am? [00:30:17] Rowan: That’s lovely. Yeah. I think that’s,it. I don’t want this episode to come off as depressing. But I just think it comes off as real. lot of us are dealing with stuff and we’re looking for like the cure. I remember when I started listening to a- happiness podcast. And it was like, “This is the secret to happiness,” right? And it had some really good stuff, like some science-backed really good stuff. It was fantastic. But it didn’t make me happy all the time. Nor have I realized I can be happy all the time, because if I’m happy all the time, is that even really happiness, right? happy has to have something to compare itself to. Joy has to have something to compare itself to. I can’t just stay in those states perpetually. And so what I try to do is practice contentment, being content with what I have in the moment, and that can have various degrees, right? Whereas I think happiness doesn’t have various degrees for me. It’s like I’m happy. I can tell, like, that’s a , big feeling. And joy is a big feeling, and the two of them are kind of related for me, right? They’re sometimes hard to tease apart what’s what, but I think that content can exist even if I’m not feeling perfect about things. I’m like, “I am content where I am right now. Even if it isn’t perfect, I’m grateful for what I have. I will keep working on things, but I’m definitely good with where I am in this moment,” ‘cause it’s very much a moment thing for me too. So, it isn’t about being negative, and it isn’t about being extremely positive. It just is about being human. [00:31:56] Lara: Yeah. And if you’re feeling not okay, that doesn’t mean you’re failing at life, that’s how it can feel to a lot of people, right? that if you’re not okay, then you’ve failed, and failure is very scary to a lot of people. that’s what I hoped people would take away from this is it’s okay to have different feelings. It’s okay to figure out what’s true, and that you’re going to be able to make things more okay the more real you are with yourself. [00:32:24] Rowan: Yeah. And if you ever come to my coffee shop, It’s okay to tell me that you’re having a bad day. [00:32:30] Lara: Mm-hmm. [00:32:30] Rowan: I just think wewe need to be more realistic with each other. , Let’s just be a little bit more honest. Doesn’t mean we have to offload every single problem we’re having to a complete stranger, although sometimes that does happen, and,the person’s receptive and you end up having an amazing talk. I’ve actually, weirdly... I hate bringing it back to my coffee shop. But I’ve seen this happen with complete strangers in my coffee shop, either with me or with somebody else, and they’re just sitting at the harvest table, and they just end up having these talks with each other and sharing how they’re feeling , But it’s okay to show up as you are. Please just show up as you are. you are worthy no matter what you’re going through right now. just be honest with yourself, and it’s okay to be honest with other people too. [00:33:13] Lara: and that’s what we have to say about that. [00:33:15] Rowan: This feels like a PSA now. I vow today to help myself feel a little better that I will not continue to argue with people on the internet. In fact, instead I will make myself a sandwich after we’re done recording, and I will get on with my beautiful day. [00:33:32] Lara: I love it. I love it. Thank you all for being here with us today. We will see you again in two weeks. Please keep telling other people about the podcast. we’re getting some momentum. We love you being here. And that’s it. We’ll talk to you again soon. [00:33:48] Rowan: Stay awesome. This is a public episode. If you'd like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit unboxingit.substack.com/subscribe [https://unboxingit.substack.com/subscribe?utm_medium=podcast&utm_campaign=CTA_2]

44: That's Just How I Am

There is a fine line between “I can’t change” and “I don’t want to change”. We talk about that difference, and the times when it might be worth exploring whether or not change is something you actually want to make. If it is, what mindset shifts can you make to create it? Transcript (please note, these are not edited for accuracy so might be wonky) Rowan: I personally believe the entire reason I’m here is so that I can continue to grow and develop and help others, and et cetera, right? But I can’t do that if I stay stuck and just tell myself, “This is it,” and never push beyond that. [00:00:39] Lara: Welcome to Unboxing It. I’m Lara. [00:00:41] Rowan: And I’m Rowan. [00:00:43] Lara: And we are gonna talk a little bit about who we are and whether or not we should just accept who we are in every given moment, or whether or not there’s room to spend some time thinking about it. [00:00:58] Rowan: It’s a more complicated issue than people realize it is. [00:01:02] Lara: It is. And I think that it comes down to, you know, there’s parts of us that say, “Well, that’s just who I am,” and that means you are digging your heels in and trying to demonstrate that you are empowered and not letting other people change you. And the other side of it is that I think when people say, “That’s just who I am,” it’s because they feel like it’s the opposite of being empowered. It’s where I see people saying, like, “That’s just how it goes.” And, certainly as I just said that, I was like, “Oh, that’s what I do with feeling sick. That’s just who I am, I feel sick.” But there are things that you can do. There are ways that you can look into things. There are times when doing a little reflection means that you could change things. And once you’ve done that reflection and you come up with the end result where you’re back to the same place, “Yes, that is who I am.” I think the reason this conversation is important is the difference between, “That’s just how it is,” and, “I’ve spent time thinking about this, and I have figured out that this is how it is.” And it’s such a small difference ... Like, it’s a small difference when you say it, but it’s a big difference when you think about what went into deciding and embodying and figuring out what works for you as a human being. [00:02:30] Rowan: I have so many examples of this in my personal life, but we can talk about it in a bigger context right now, a more general context. When you kept saying it like that, when you kept going like, “ That’s just who I am,” it made me think of a dad. You know? Like a stubborn middle-aged dad- Yeah ... who’s just like, “No. I, you know, I don’t do that. That’s just who I am. I don’t do that stuff.” and that is, I think we all know a dad like that. We all know a man like that. And we know some women like that. We know a lot of people like that in general. But,I know so many men like that, especially older men, who just say, “Oh, that’s just who I am. I’m not gonna change.” And it’s almost a defiance thing. Like, I think in that particular case- It feels really tied into something else that I was talking about earlier this week on Threads. I think it was yesterday. There was a, man who was talking about how he tried to be vulnerable online, and he deleted the post because he was told by a lot of people, “Women have it worse. Women have it worse.” And so he just, he’s like, “Look, if we wanna change things, we have to leave room for men to be able to be vulnerable, too.” And this led to a much deeper conversation where he got a lot of support, including from me, because I said, “Look, I’m the same person. But I lived as a woman for over 40 years, and I was allowed to express my feelings. I was allowed to grow. I was allowed to be vulnerable. I was allowed to do those things. And then now that the world sees me as a man, Like, same person, same emotions, same everything, same level of vulnerability, and I am often encouraged to keep it to myself.” And I think when we think about a man in that context, but maybe just a lot of people in general,it’s people who have tried to explore things maybe in the past, maybe a long time ago. Maybe when they were kids. Maybe they tried to make a change, and they were shut down. They were shut down really fast. society really loves to keep people in boxes. We’ve talked about this a lot. And so how much of this is learned behavior, and how much of this is maybe fear of pushing back against that learned behavior? [00:04:46] Lara: Yeah. I think it’s probably a lot of them, or all of them. perhaps throughout your life you’ve struggled to have emotional conversations, and it went badly when you tried to. I mean, this is the example you just gave. But,, that gets reinforced to the point where you think it’s not worth trying anymore. And I don’t know that everybody thinks... I don’t even know that this makes sense, but I think that there are times when people are like, “There’s no point.” Right? “So it’s not that I’m not willing to look into it. there’s no point. I’ve tried. This has been hard my whole life. I can’t change it.” And- [00:05:26] Rowan: Mm ... [00:05:26] Lara: maybe, maybe there’s some truth to that, but there’s also the idea that you can look at something in a different way, right? It’s not, that you don’t just have to try harder You don’t have to just push harder. You don’t have to be stricter. You have to think about things and unpack it. You have to ask yourself some questions. You have to ask yourself what you’re willing to do to change it. You have to ask yourself if you believe that an alternative, ending or way of being is possible. because if you don’t believe it’s possible, it’s not gonna happen. [00:06:04] Rowan: Yeah. and also I think we need to really examine the why, right? I think genuinely when we look at changing ourselves as human beings and whether or not it is worth putting the work into making that change, maybe we are pushing against beliefs, maybe we are pushing against,intrinsic behaviors we’ve had for a really long time. Maybe we’re pushing against fear. There has to be a strong reason to do that. So whenever I’m looking at making changes in my own life, I often ask myself, “ Is what I’m doing right now, is the way I’m living right now, is the way I’m behaving right now, is that working for me?” If it’s working for me, then there’s really no reason to examine it. But if it’s not working for me, no matter how difficult it might be for me to make that change, I still have to do it. I still have to at least try to do it. Because I go back to my transness, and I know I do that a lot, but it is a very... I think trans people have a special place in society in which we do something that is very difficult to do, and that a lot of people don’t understand, and we do it anyway because we really need to. we have to. And so that’s why I keep going back to that as an example in a lot of our episodes. But I, in a lot of ways, had it made as a woman, if you will, right? I was a very successful woman in my own right. was a mother. I was a wife. I literally was, like, you know, the keynote speaker multiple times at women’s events, International Women’s Day. I was, and this will only matter to Canadians, but I was a Chatelaine Woman of the Year. I was a 2020 Woman of Influence, et cetera, et cetera. I mean, as far as women go,I was doing really well at womaning. But I was miserable I was absolutely miserable. It was like a suit that never fit me. And transitioning, especially as a public figure, especially with other trans people already in my family, bringing on the whole idea of it being a contagion or something somehow- perpetuating that kind of stereotype,, that misinformation that can really harm our community. I mean, for so many reasons, being middle-aged. I mean, It was extremely challenging to do this. But I also knew that what I was doing before and who I was before wasn’t working. It just wasn’t who I was. And so that I use as an example simply because it is an extreme example, in some ways, of The way that I’m living or who I am right now just isn’t working for me. And so at that point, do I just keep going, “Well, that’s just who I am”? Because you know what? I tried the self-acceptance thing. I tried to just be like, “Well, I’m a woman.” I mean, gosh, I could not get more woman than I was, if you really wanna look at it that way. It didn’t work. So when we are examining the idea of making changes, if it is a really difficult change, it doesn’t mean necessarily that it can’t be done. It just means that we need enough motivation to do it. [00:09:24] Lara: And potentially support. So certainly as a coach, and my work as a business coach, I always leaned a little bit more to mindset and,you know, not quite life coach-y, but, it felt like that with some people, right? Because one of the things that I could often see were mindsets and ways of being that weren’t just about, well, if you just do this thing, change your pricing, and everything will be better. It’s like some of it is you don’t believe it, and that, ... maybe you need to look at that. Some of it is around confidence. I mean, mindset impacts every little, tiny inch of our lives, right? Like, it’s everywhere. And being certain that something can’t change when the result of that thing is ultimately making you unhappy is just giving in, in my opinion, right? so if you are ultimately unhappy because of something that you think is just how you are, then to me it’s worth saying, “ Well- Can we unpack that and figure out what we can do instead? And it doesn’t always mean transitioning, right? It can mean- ... just a little bit of introspection and a little bit of... So a good one for me is what if, right? So what if this bad thing happens? What if this bad thing happens? What if this bad thing happens? And... I know it’s annoying when you’re in that mode of what if, terrible, terrible, terrible. If somebody’s like, “But what if it all works out?” Is understandably annoying. But also, if you can start to, like, even consider a little bit of what if it worked out, even if it goes along with your what if it doesn’t work out, but just, like, it’s still there as an option, that starts to change your brain. It starts to change everything about what you believe is worth trying and doing. And so sometimes it’s just considering, I’m not saying you have to believe it, I’m saying consider one alternative and try that on. Ask yourself to keep considering alternatives and see what happens. it can be as small as that. What if this is a good idea instead of something that’s going to mean something bad? And if right away you come to the conclusion that no, it is not a good idea, then that’s okay. But if there’s an option for it to be something that works, let yourself, feel that just a little bit. [00:12:02] Rowan: I like that. it’s like planting the seed and you don’t have to do anything with it just yet. You’ve planted the seed. And just allowing yourself to entertain the thought that maybe some level of change could happen is huge. And I feel like I went off on a tangent about transness, and I could already hear 2018 Twitter getting big mad at me. because ... And this is why I always, bring this up, because I do think it’s important. we do have to at least bring the idea of privilege into any conversation like this. Some people, if we go to, say all the way to transition, it’s simply not safe for them to transition, so they don’t have that option, right? There are a lot of things that can get in our way. And also I think that sometimes we can tell ourselves that there are too many obstacles in our way- As a way of not even entertaining it. So I think both can be true. I think privilege and the obstacles that some people face are very, very real and sometimes make something impossible. That’s true. And also, and I’m use myself again, sometimes we tell ourselves stories about where we’re at. Like, I remember telling myself a story for years that I could never make anything of myself because I only have a high school education. And as I’ve mentioned a million times on this podcast, I tried to go to school as a teenager, and I had a lot of obstacles, including some housing insecurity that made it very difficult for me to go to school and graduate. So I didn’t. I went back much later at 37. I graduated at 38 years old with a high school diploma. I do not have any more education than that. And for years, what I struggled with was that I could never be, I’m gonna use air quotes ‘cause this means different things to different people, successful because I didn’t have anything beyond high school. I could never be anything I wanted to be because I don’t have the education. And if you’re looking at, like, I could never be a doctor, or I could never be a lawyer, yeah, that’s true. I could never be an engineer. Truth. That’s... You actually have to go get a degree for those things. But I limited myself for such a long time. I told myself that over and over and over. the idea of even trying felt pointless. And I didn’t have that education privilege. I really didn’t. I didn’t have the money to go to school. I didn’t have the means to go to school. I had three kids at that time. Money was very tight. There was no way, in a lot of ways, that I could go to school. and that’s a story I told. But I actually did manage to become quite successful in ways that matter to me and in some ways that I thought would matter to me and then ended up not really mattering, but I digress. I have a really amazing life now. I have a life that is extremely fulfilling. I have achieved all the things I’ve always dreamed about achieving, true story, and I only have a high school education. So what changed? What changed was I stopped telling myself that I could never do anything that I set my mind to because I didn’t have enough education. So I, again, I think both things can be true at the same time. [00:15:26] Lara: And there’s just endless examples like this, right? It’s, “I’m not smart enough.” Well- Maybe you’re not smart in certain ways because not all of us are equally smart in all ways. Maybe you are taking some kind of measure of your intelligence that was not the best way to measure your intelligence and just deciding that that’s true forevermore. But no matter what, everybody has different strengths in different areas. And if you say, “Well, I struggle with this kind of thing,” and then instead we say, “Okay, so what do you not struggle with, and how can we use that to your advantage?” And if we can pinpoint that thing that feels easier for you, and move with it, then suddenly you can see opportunities you couldn’t see before. But if you’re stuck in, “I can’t do it, I can’t do it, I can’t do it,” then you’re right, you can’t do it. But if you’re willing to stop and consider other options. So an example might be if you say, “Well, I’m not a good writer,” which I’ve talked to a lot of people who’ve told me they’re not a good writer, but they’re great on video or they’re great with their hands. And those things are very important also, so lean into that and don’t tell yourself you can’t do anything because you believe that you need to be a good writer in order to be successful at anything. And I do think that’s how some people feel, right? Like, if I was going to be somebody who could be successful, I need to be like this, like this, like this, like this, whatever the list that they’ve created is. And if they don’t believe that they can be those things, then that blocks them off from success versus let’s look at, a different path, a different door, a different measure of success, and suddenly all kinds of new possibilities pop up. [00:17:20] Rowan: It really is about utilizing what you have. again, there is that nuance. There is that nuance where you have, maybe somebody isn’t a strong writer, and - they don’t have that natural ability to throw words onto paper. and there are a million people who are actually very good at writing who, don’t realize they’re good at writing so there’s that too. But if you don’t, try to figure out how to grow, and growing’s going to look different for all of us. Like, I can accept... I have an anxiety disorder, and, Lara, you were instrumental at reminding me early last year that I should really go back on my meds, right? Because I was not in a good place, and I did go back on my meds, and I take them every day, and I am in a much, much better situation because of it, so thank you. and I will always have an anxiety disorder. I know that because I have had it my entire life, since I was too young to even know what a panic attack was. I’ve always had an anxiety disorder. it’s just, that is the way my brain works, and so it is, in its own way... I don’t know if I’d go as far as to classify it as a disability, but it certainly does , get in front of a lot of things that I try to do sometimes. But I’ve stopped telling myself that I can’t do things because I have an anxiety disorder, and that’s something I did for a long time, and now I’m like, “No, you know what? I can take bigger risks even with an anxiety disorder.” What I need, though, is to find ways to manage it, and I need to work on a lot of cognitive behavioral techniques and that sort of thing so that I can manage the stress when it comes up. and so that has allowed me to move forward in my life in a way that I couldn’t when I kept telling myself, “I’m too anxious for that. I’m too anxious for that. I’m too anxious for that.” That being said, if I don’t really need to do something, like for example, going into a really loud bar environment, it completely overwhelms me most of the time. it’s just too much. Too much for my brain, too much for my anxiety. I really don’t enjoy myself, right? And I could push through, but why would I push through? there’s no need to do that unless I absolutely have to, and I don’t absolutely have to, so I just choose not to do that. But if I needed to do that for some reason, I think I would have the incentive to try and figure out how to manage that better. So it really is, for me, all about accepting who I am, and making some allowances for that, but also not using who I am as a reason not to grow in the areas that I feel I need to grow. [00:20:08] Lara: Yeah. I think the that’s just who I am part becomes like a defensive roadblock, and what we’re looking for is to ask ourselves what we want and to figure out how, and maybe if, but how it’s possible. And this comes up in lots of ways. I like to- Try to find ways to push out of my comfort zone because I find that that helps me grow. So even if we go back to the example, I’m sure I’ve talked about this on the show before, but I did a stand-up comedy course, and I had a lot of anxiety and stress in multiple parts of that experience because it was really uncomfortable. And I powered through because I wanted to have done it. If I didn’t want that experience, for example, I do not want to bungee jump. [00:20:59] Rowan: Right. [00:21:01] Lara: Same. Could I? Probably I could do it, but I really don’t want to. Therefore, pushing through the discomfort is not an incentive for me. And so whenever you say things like, “I wish I could, but I can’t,” then instead it’s more about, “I wish I could. Can I?” And that’s it. Mm-hmm. That’s the little change in what I think this conversation is important about. It’s not that you have to suddenly change things. It’s not that if you’re like, “That’s just who I am,” you have to change it all. But it is, “ Do you want to change it? Why do you wanna change it? How could it change? Are you sure that you can’t change it a little bit, even if it’s not how somebody else would expect you to change it?” But the point is that you have the ability to ask yourself what you want, decide what’s worth the effort, and do some thinking so that you’re not just stuck in, “This is what I thought it was once, 20 years ago, and therefore, that’s what it is forever.” [00:22:10] Rowan: There’s this... First of all, first of all, that was really deep. Like, could I, right? - that’s huge. - That is the key. As opposed to just completely blocking it out, it was just allowing yourself that permission to explore it, that’s huge. I forgot the other thing I was going to say, because that is just what happens when I, uh, you know- That’s [00:22:30] Lara: just who [00:22:30] Rowan: you are. Uh,yeah. That’s just who I am. Okay, I figured it out. I wanted to talk about the science behind this because I think some of this has happened because - we’ve known for a long time, because it’s very obvious, that when you’re young, you’re constantly learning. You look at a baby, and the baby grows, and the baby’s learning. And then suddenly it’s a toddler, and they’re learning new words, and then they, running. And this goes on and on, and you even watch it through, like, adolescence. And then by about 25, in most brains, the frontal lobe stops developing, and we have considered for a very long time that then people are fully formed. And so the story, the science told for a very long time is that is who we are. And we’ve talked about nature versus nurture, and there’s been a lot of back and forth about that, and whether or not we just come out the way we are, or are we made that way through experience or a little bit of both? But what has been more recent that a lot of neuroscientists are now talking about is neuroplasticity, which basically means our brains are still able to develop new neural pathways throughout our entire lives, and that is so cool. Learning that was a big part of how I learned that I could change some of my behaviors that I thought were very stuck, that they were rigid, that my brain had stopped developing. This is where I was, and then suddenly, I’m introduced, through YouTube videos by neuroscientists, to the concept of neuroplasticity. And I really encourage people to look this up. If you really think, “This is who I am and I can’t change. I can never change this,” that might be true of some things. Certainly, there are some things. Some people just have a bit more of a sense of humor. Some people are a little more laid back. Some people are a little more, forgetful. Or, like, there are certainly some things in our lives that, are not, necessarily going to change, easily at least. but neuroplasticity allows us to develop new mindsets. It allows us to develop new behaviors, and so it is never too late. I’m a very different person approaching 50 than I was even five years ago, and it’s not just because I transitioned. It’s because I allowed myself to grow. I took risks that I never thought I would take. I was like, “Ah, I’m in love. You know what I’m gonna do? Leave my cozy little Ottawa suburb that I have been in forever, where my entire family lives, and I have all these people I know, and, you know, I’m really well-connected in the city. I’m gonna pick up and move to Toronto,” which I never, ever thought I would do, always said I would never even consider. “ And I’m gonna do it for love, and I’m gonna see what happens.” And doing that was transformative. Suddenly- I am living a completely different life that suits me so much better. But the level of calm in my body, huge. it’s been a game changer. and , just the way I think about the world, I’ve had quite a, I don’t wanna call it a spiritual awakening, but I guess in a way, just how I see the world, how I see the universe, how I see other people, how I... Just everything has changed dramatically. So I do think sometimes that when we know we can grow, when we know we can change something, when we know there’s at least a hope that something can change, it really does help us because people are growing all the time. I,personally believe, and everybody’s different, but I personally believe the entire reason I’m here is so that I can continue to grow and develop and help others, and et cetera, right? But I can’t do that if I stay stuck and just tell myself, “This is it,” and never push beyond that. So yeah, going past your comfort zone, even just a little bit, even with just that thought that you were saying, Lara,of, could I? , that can open the door to so many things. [00:26:53] Lara: Yeah. I have a little list of things that I thought of while you were talking, so I’m gonna just run through some of them. [00:26:59] Rowan: While, I was, like, on my, . Large ramble. I am a man with a podcast, you know, so I mean, y- Isn’t that the whole point, that I just want everyone to listen to me? [00:27:07] Lara: Well, and the whole point for me is that I love when my brain gets excited and thinks of all the things, so this is perfect. But , the- I think the neuroplasticity thing is huge, e- especially if you’re, our age or older, Gen X or older. We were definitely taught you can’t teach an old dog new tricks, and that was really something that everybody believed was true. And then when science was like, “Actually, neuroplasticity means you can learn things all the time,” it’s just a good reminder. If you think, “I didn’t learn that, I’m now, and I can’t do it,” like, yes, you can. You can try new things. You can do new things. You can still grow and just push through things and find new ways of being. So, I think that’s such a good reminder. I was thinking of another example as we were talking about the kinds of things that people believe. It’s one I hear a lot of because of the art that I do, is like, “I’m just not a creative person.” And I don’t generally believe people when they say that because they are creative in some way, and they can find the creative endeavor that is right for them. And that’s again, that slight shift. I’m not creative. Okay. But what if you try a couple of different things and see if you like it? And that’s where if you hate it, don’t keep doing it. If you’re surprised and you want to try to, find more of those skills, then do it, right? And I think that’s ultimately what I hoped people would get out of this conversation. It’s not that we think you have to change. It’s that what my biggest hope is that you don’t think you can’t when you want to. It’s okay to want something different than you have now. It’s okay to change your mind about what you wanted before and decide that you want something new now. It’s okay to want to push into ways of being that are completely different than you used to have. If none of those things appeal to you, like maybe this conversation isn’t for you. But the point is you don’t have to feel like you’re stuck and nothing can change if you don’t want to. that’s the thing that I really hoped people would take away from this. If that’s not what you want, if you hoped that something could be different, but it feels like it couldn’t, this is when looking at it a little bit more and asking yourself a few questions could be a really interesting and worthwhile exercise. [00:29:40] Rowan: What I like to do is I like to ask myself, “Am I content?” And for a long time, I wasn’t content. There were a number of things I wanted to change. Today when I ask myself, “Am I content with who I am?” Yes, I’m very content. There’s a couple little things that I’m working on, of course. I’m always working. You know, some insecurities and, I tend to be a little defensive, which is sort of related to insecurity. So like I’m working on those things, for sure. But overall, I’m very content with who I am and where I am, so I don’t really need to change anything. If I say that’s just who I am, that’s just who I am right now. That’s okay. And you know what? If that ever stops working for me, then maybe I start to question it a little bit more. so yeah, if you are content in your life, if things are going well for you, if you are happy with who you are and how you navigate the world, great. then this conversation was not needed. If you are somebody who has resisted, personal growth or change of any kind- Because you think it’s not possible, maybe this conversation is for you- ... to at least explore it. So yeah, I think it’s a really healthy conversation to have. And if the conversation made you uncomfortable, sit with that for a little bit. Because when something has made me uncomfortable, it’s usually because deep down I need to explore it a little bit more. [00:31:07] Lara: And it’s that whole piece of, like, you can look into it without throwing yourself into a panic attack, right? we’re just stepping into little questions and ways of thinking about things that can be different to see how they feel. That’s it. It’s just a little bit of exploration. [00:31:25] Rowan: A little bit of exploration, not testosterone and top surgery. Although maybe. I mean, who knows? [00:31:31] Lara: Well, I’m just saying that’s not step one. [00:31:35] Rowan: No, it’s not step one. That’s like step 27. That’s like, it’s way down the line. [00:31:42] Lara: And just taking the time to consider things does not mean that you are now committed through to step 84, right? Like, that’s, again, part of this, is you can keep figuring things out and keep figuring out what’s best for you. And, like, let’s just see what happens. [00:31:58] Rowan: My favorite thing that I’ve seen some people do is they go, “ Okay. Yeah, I could see how that might be something I wanna look at, but I’m not gonna look at it right now, but I acknowledge the need to look at it, and I’m gonna look at it later.” That’s cool. Good for you. Maybe, you know, you don’t have the bandwidth right now, but you know it’s something you wanna look at. I commend you, right? As opposed to just r- rushing right in when maybe you’re not ready to rush right in. So yeah, it is totally okay to take everything like that at your own pace. [00:32:31] Lara: Yeah. it’s that empowered piece, right? It’s not that life is happening to you. It’s not that you don’t have control. It’s just that you do have enough control to say, “Maybe one day, but not right now.” And so keep just stretching into things. Keep asking questions. Keep questioning when you feel stuck to figure out what alternatives could exist. And that’s what I hope people take away from today. [00:32:58] Rowan: Thank you so much for joining us today. This was such a cool conversation, and it’s got me thinking all kinds of ways. if you have anything to say about this, if you are excited we talked about this, uncomfortable we talked about this, big mad that we talked about this, feel free to drop us a line. You can send us a message, via email. You can write something on our Substack. We love to hear from you. Feel free to hit the subscribe button, download all of our latest episodes. And, if you are somebody who has something to say, if you think that we have missed something important and you are someone who is knowledgeable in that area, let us know. Maybe we can have you on for an episode. [00:33:44] Lara: Love it. I will also say, if you enjoy the show, we would love some more reviews on Apple Music, Spotify, all the places. So just remember that. We appreciate your time and effort with leaving us ratings and reviews. And I think that’s it for this time. We will see you all again in two weeks. Have a great, have a great life. Have a great life. I don’t know. [00:34:10] Rowan: Have a great life. [00:34:12] Lara: But, like, not in a mean way. I mean it. I mean it. It’s a sincere- [00:34:15] Rowan: Have a wonderful- We’re just gonna leave this in. we’re leaving that one in. That’s like... Like, , this is just, complete honesty. I, I love it. let’s just blooper this thing. All right, everyone, thank you for joining us. We’ll see you next time. This is a public episode. If you'd like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit unboxingit.substack.com/subscribe [https://unboxingit.substack.com/subscribe?utm_medium=podcast&utm_campaign=CTA_2]

43: Don't Yuck Other People's Yum

Rowan here, and I have a confession: I love Coldplay. In fact, they’re my favourite band. How do you feel about that? The reaction I get when I tell people varies, but I’m often met with negativity. “I can’t stand their music.” “They’re so overplayed.” “There are tons of indie bands that are way better, you know.” I’m one of those people who likes something popular that is often ridiculed by others. Think of the Twilight fans, Hunger Games stans, or the Swifties (and if you’re Canadian, Nickelback will come to mind, too.) But it’s not just popular things that get that kind of negativity. As humans, we’re quick to dismiss just about anything that doesn’t intrigue or excite us. When you don’t like something that someone else likes, do you tell them? And more importantly: If you do, why do you tell them? Where does that come from? This week, Lara and I talk about yucking other people’s yums and why this is so pervasive in our culture. We remind each other that we don’t all experience the same things the same way, and share some different phrasing we can all use so that we aren’t making someone else feel bad.* Let us know what you think about the judgment we hold for other people’s likes. And now I’m off to listen to Parachutes. (*Exception: Financially supporting JK Rowling. We get into that, too.) Transcript [00:00:00] Lara: you cannot like it, that’s fine, but I will not accept that. You say nobody should like this. Just because you don’t like it. [00:00:33] Rowan: Welcome to this week’s episode of Unboxing It. My name is Rowan. [00:00:36] Lara: And I’m Lara. [00:00:37] Rowan: and this week we’re covering a topic that we have chatted about ourselves just for funsies, and thought we should make this an actual. Episode and that is the concept of, and you’ve all heard this before, probably don’t yuck other people’s. Yum. What does that mean to you, Lara? [00:00:57] Lara: It means that just because you don’t like something doesn’t mean it’s bad , or it doesn’t mean somebody else isn’t allowed to like something. [00:01:08] Rowan: Right, right. And then if you take that a step further, you can take that into the kink world, because that’s where I first heard of it. just from the outskirts,as a queer person listening in, when people are describing things like kinks and fetishes, and they’ll say, don’t yuck someone else’s, yum. It just means like everyone’s into different things. Something that you might really, like, somebody else might not really like or vice versa, but that doesn’t mean it’s wrong or bad. So you can take that from like the fetish side of things all the way to what we have discussed. you know, books that have been really popular, for example? [00:01:48] Lara: Yeah. No, it’s all kinds of things. obviously it can be used everywhere. Kink, not where I’ve heard of it first, which is fine, but I think you know, , it really comes down to, I think in times past it was quite normalized to think that your way is the right way and that telling everybody that, Was a good idea, right? So, nope, we don’t do it like that. We don’t dress like that. You don’t wear white after Labor Day. Like ? Why is that something that I know as a rule? Because who cares what color you wear when but somehow that was like something people would say, enough that I’ve heard it and people would insist this is how you do things. This is how you dress at certain times. This is how you don’t dress. This is how you, Do your hair. there’s a million things where people are like, this is the correct way and therefore it is fine for me to say that your way if it is not that way, is wrong. [00:02:49] Rowan: I first got introduced to this concept, probably a lot earlier than that, back in, elementary school. I remember that people were wearing Converse or, converse all stars back in the eighties. I couldn’t afford Converse. My parents got me Panthers. It was the Zellers version. And if you’re Canadian, you know exactly what I’m talking about when I say the Zellers version of something. Unless you’re a really young Canadian, in which case. I’m sorry you did not get to experience the amazingness. That was Zellers.. but more so when I got into music and it was almost like you had to pick a lane when it came to music. So you had, I was a head banger as we called them in the day. I liked all the,metal bands, everything from, you know, mega death to the hairbands, like Motley Crewe, that sort of thing. And. That was my yum. And somebody else who was really into pop might have been like. That’s awful. I hate that stuff. No, you have to like this stuff. My music’s the best. and then people who say liked rock would say, ah, pop, it’s all fabricated. It’s synth. It’s,just, recorded one track at a time. or these metal bands, they go in and they all play together, which wasn’t necessarily true, but that’s what we believed. And youwould have this, back and forth of, mine is the best, no, yours is the best. And. We see that now, but almost in a different way too. I remember when speaking of kinks, 50 Shades of Gray came out. I think a lot of us of a certain era of a certain age, remember when that book came out and I never read it. I never read it specifically, not because I had an issue at the time with the content, although there’s been much discussion about the content these days and it’s been really analyzed in different ways and made a lot of people think. But at the time it wasn’t because it was, offensive to me somehow. It was more that a friend of mine whose opinion I really respect. Asked me, have you read this book yet? And I said, no. And she said, don’t read it. it’s terribly written. It’s gonna, as a writer, it’s going to drive you crazy. You’re not gonna be able to handle it. And I will admit that first of all, I do not consider myself a fantastic writer. other people have said that they think I’m a good writer. Thank you. I don’t think I’m terrible. I just don’t think I’m like way up there like a lot of people whose writing I really respect. But I wouldn’t say I’m a bad writer either. But again, that’s debatable. I have an issue with. Poorly edited books more than anything. I think a lot of writers,you know, we write our drafts and then we send them to the editor and then the editor sends them back. And if we’re lucky, we have a really good editor who can kind ofpoint out where we can maybe not repeat the same words or phrases all the time. Maybe we can switch things up, use a different word here, use a, different way of describing this there. And. I find sometimes, and this is what she was telling me with this particular book, she said the thing that would drive me crazy was that it repeated itself a lot. There wasn’t a lot of originality in the wording, and so it would be really hard to get into the story. If you take that, you kind of transpose it into a lot of other things. You have people who have said the same thing about Twilight. You’ve had people who said the same things about, I mean, I could just go on, there’s a lot of books - Shopaholic series. a lot of these books that have been huge for some groups of people have also been completely mocked, ridiculed, and dismissed by others. And there’s definitely a psychological phenomenon going on there. [00:06:33] Lara: Yeah, a bunch of the ones that you mentioned, 50 Shades is one, Twilight is another one. I’ve heard it about Hunger Games. Lots and lots of books get this. It’s not well written, criticism in a way that suggests to me they think you should never read or like that book. It’s not even well written. And I would like to say. Then why have millions and millions of people read the books? Loved the books, shared the books, told other people to read the books, right? I think part of it is that it’s a compelling story to many people and whether or not it is exceptionally well written. It obviously didn’t take away from the story that people are loving. Right. Could it have been written better or more grammatically correct, or edited better? All of those things? Sure. But people still liked it, which tells me that it was good regardless. You know?I guess it depends what. Definition of good you’re using, but if people liked it, then stop acting like they shouldn’t like it because it wasn’t written a certain way. I also think the way that I read. I don’t know that I skim everything, but I do skim sections. I skip sections. If I’m like, just take me to the next dialogue, or like,I’ll just take like the feeling of a paragraph instead of reading it carefully. So I’m very happy with the book, There’s no issue that I have with the writing, and when people are like, this is written so poorly, how could you have read it? I’m like, oh. Okay. I think I’m much better now. I don’t really care if people say that now, but there was a time where I’d be like, oh, it makes you feel like, oh, I shouldn’t have liked it. Or maybe I’m not good enough in English to know when something’s badly written. Right? Like there’s a lot that comes with people saying it’s badly written, you should never read it. It’s different to say as somebody who I know really appreciates, literature of a certain kind, I don’t think you will enjoy this book, which is very different than don’t read it. It’s terrible in every way. And it just really gets me when people act like a book that is as popular as Twilight or 50 shades is just being slammed constantly. just don’t read it. Then [00:08:57] Rowan: as a species, we really enjoy being morally superior. I do know this psychological reasoning and I had to research it for, funny enough, my last book and shaming others for something has. A survival element to it. So hear me out. When we all used to live back in cave days and you had a small group of people you relied on for everything, say 15, 20 people, you’re all living together. If one of those people wasn’t doing what the rest of them were doing, if one of those people was not pulling their weight or whatever it might be, you had to figure out either. How to get them to change their ways or how to get them to leave your group, because otherwise everything would probably fall apart and you wouldn’t live very long. So the theory from anthropologists, from what I understand, is that our bodies learned to give us those little hits of dopamine when we would. Publicly gang up on someone. And it makes a lot of sense in those days for survival reasons, it doesn’t make a lot of sense. It doesn’t translate well to our modern culture. And we see that, for example, in all those pile-ons on the internet. Like, you see someone have a bad take or what you think is a bad take, and then you see that 300 people have already told this person all the things you were going to tell them, right? Like you were going to say they were wrong for all of these reasons, you still do it anyway. You still pile on. That’s why it’s a pile on, and it’s because. Usually you’re getting a little reward. Your reward center is sending you something. And I think that translates to even things like books, movies, music, clothing, anything that makes you right in some area and somebody else wrong in that same area. So the other phenomenon that I think happens here is that. The more popular something is, the more eyes are on it. The more scrutiny it gets, the more analysis it gets, the more people have opinions on it, the more people get tired of hearing about it. Maybe the more they might, in some cases, feel morally superior if they never. read it. Never watched it. Never subscribed to it, because. That’s not for them. And then you get kind of that, hipster phenomenon there, right? Where like, I liked it before, it was cool. Or, you know, that artist was great until, they got too big. Or you see it all over the place and it is worth having a look at because a lot of it can come down to our own insecurities like I used to be. That person a hundred percent. I was that person. I will own that. I’m not proud of it, but it would be a disservice to say that I wasn’t that guy. I wasn’t identifying as a guy then, but I wasn’t that person. But it was because deep down, I was really insecure. I was insecure about certain things. So if I could latch onto something that made me feel better, for example, saying, Ugh. I never read 50 Shades. I hear it was badly written or, , I watched Twilight. It was ridiculous. I would never watch it. Why do you like that so much? Or whatever it might be, right? Like I think that gave me that little dopamine hit of. I am somehow better than you. And we see that over and over in a lot of these conversations. Like there’s one thing to have an opinion and go, ah, it wasn’t really for me. you know, , why didn’t you like it? Oh, I just, didn’t like these elements. But you know, like, Hey, to each their own. That’s very different than what is wrong with you for that being your favorite thing. [00:13:04] Lara: Yes, exactly, because it’s fine for you to not like it, but I don’t think it’s fine for you to tell me that. Me liking it makes me somebody who doesn’t understand what a good book is, right? Like those are very different things, and I do think part of it is a confidence thing. I think part of it is, if. I don’t like something other people like, well then what’s wrong with me? Right? There’s so many things that come up and make us feel uncomfortable, but we all get to like different things for different reasons and for sure, this is something I’ve said a million times on this podcast already, but. Everywhere else, we are all different. We all process things differently. We all have different emotions, we have different backgrounds. that sounds really obvious when I say it, but it’s not obvious to many people when they don’t think about it and they just assume everybody thinks like them. They assume everybody. Would want the same things as them, and therefore they put out information in a way that suggests that you should do something different if you want to be correct because they’ve figured out what’s correct for them. [00:14:18] Rowan: I am going to throw a caveat in here. It’s a big one, so get ready. I take a strong stand. Against people supporting Harry Potter. [00:14:30] Lara: Mm-hmm. [00:14:31] Rowan: I think that if you are for trans people, if you are for trans rights, you cannot at the same time support a franchise where the billionaire behind that franchise is using that money openly and proudly to squash trans rights around the world. [00:14:55] Lara: Yes, and I think that’s such a different conversation, right? There’s the part where, I mean, I suppose if people are like, well, my yum are racist, transphobic people. Then I guess I don’t think you should have that. Yum, [00:15:09] Rowan: I’m gonna yuck that one. [00:15:10] Lara: Yeah, yuck. I need to yuck it too. But I think that there’s a difference between we just have a difference of opinion and when somebody is supporting somebody who, I think is terrible, that’s different. JK Rowling is for sure, one for me. Chick-fil-A, which is coming to my neighborhood soon is one for me. There’s another one. there was a book that I read as part of a book club maybe 20 years ago called Enders Game, and it’s by Orson Scott Card. I looked it up to make sure, and I used to tell people like, if you wanna read a science fiction book, I really like this one. But then I found out he’s anti-gay, anti-gay marriage. Like he’s Throws all his money into, supporting causes. . I mean if, is that how you say that? His causes anti-gay anyway. He gives them a lot of money. His [00:15:58] Rowan: causes anti-gay? [00:16:00] Lara: Well, I don’t know. Well, I’ll never see him in my coffee shop, No, but like I don’t tell people about that book anymore. I don’t. Read it. Like I reread books sometimes I’ll be like, I’m not reading that. Like it’s, there’s no financial, impact for him if I don’t reread a book I already own. But like for me, I’m not doing it. I’m not gonna reread Harry Potter again, even though I own all the books. [00:16:25] Lara: end of story. I just, I’m not willing to support or pretend that. The person who created this isn’t terrible, and that’s that, how do you separate the art from the artist conversation? Because it’s certainly a hot topic and people feel different ways about it. But to me, most of the time, if I found out somebody’s terrible, I don’t want to have anything to do with that thing, no matter how much I liked it in the beginning. End of story. [00:16:55] Rowan: Yeah. look, I know a lot of people who grew up on Harry Potter. My kids, among them, one of my kids is trans, so that sucks. not that they’re trans. It sucks that they all grew up on those books and then had to find out that she really doesn’t like people, like one of them and myself. it’s one thing to say, ah, Hogwarts really shaped me. Like that whole world really was a big part of my childhood, and there’s still a part of me that thinks about it sometimes and remembers when I dressed up as. Hermione for Halloween or whatever. Like,I get that. I don’t think there’s anything wrong with that. I’m not saying you should erase all your memories and always remember that this woman is a terrible person that’s not what I’m saying. What I’m saying is time that you purchase anything that is Harry Potter related, you are , directly supporting someone. Who wants to eradicate my rights. [00:17:58] Lara: Yep. [00:17:59] Rowan: And that is a direct attack. on me, so to speak. Like I understand that the person doing it might not be hateful. in fact, I’m sure that most of the time they’re not. Sometimes it’s ignorance. Although, to be honest at this point I feel like it’s almost willful ignorance not to understand what she’s doing because she’s very open about it. She makes it most of her personality right now, you just have to go see for yourself. go to x, go have a look at what she says. Right. It’s very open. but yeah I think that there’s a difference between your reading a book or a series. I might not necessarily like. And you are supporting someone through their work who is trying and succeeding, I might add in causing great harm to others. and I know,there’s a difference between doing it and not being aware of it. And doing it even once you’re aware of it because you’re like, she’s already rich. What’s one more, purchase going to matter at this point? Well, it matters. It matters because it continues to get her licensing somewhere. So you mentioned Chick-fil-A. Chick-fil-A is another one that is very anti LGBT. The owners are very prominently anti LGBT and so supporting them directly. Goes to funding things that harm LGBT people, hobby Lobby in the US. there is definitely for me, a big disconnect. That is when I’ll yuck someone’s yum. But what I’m actually yucking or your ethics at that point. Sure. It’s not that you like something, I don’t care if you like Harry Potter or not. I am at that point disappointed by your choices because your choices are telling me who you are as a person, which is someone who is not safe for me to be around. [00:19:49] Lara: Yeah, you can love a Chick-fil-A chicken sandwich taste wise and still not buy it because you don’t wanna support people who are doing bad things. Like I think those are different. You know, one of my examples of. Don’t yuck. Someone’s yum. Is I once held this workshop and I had workbook. I had purchased and it was very like big hippie kind of looking women drawings all over. It was really bright colors. And I had somebody at my workshop who could not stop talking about how ugly it was and how who would ever want something like this and why would you ever buy this? And I was like, first of all, I bought it. Second of all. why don’t you try, this is not to my taste, because you cannot like it, that’s fine, but I will not accept that. You say nobody should like this. Just because you don’t like it. And it’s not to my taste. It’s something that I think that was the first day I said it, but like I have said it so much and it makes me happy. Every time I hear one of my children say, oh, this is not to my taste, because yeah, don’t tell me it’s gross if you didn’t like dinner. But you can say, this is not to my taste, and that is fine. Go ahead. But I like it, that’s why I made it. So be quiet. [00:21:12] Rowan: Yeah, I just don’t really have the energy to deal with people who go out of the way to hurt someone else’s feelings because they think their opinion is more important than somebody else’s thing that they really like. Like my response, if somebody says something like, Do you like my shirt? Not that I get asked that very much, but I just, you know, do you like my shirt? My response will honestly be, you know what? It’s not something I would personally wear, but. I can see really love it, and that makes it look great on you. You know what I mean? Like that kind of thing. Because I mean, that’s true. Like I think if somebody really loves something and is proud of it,it brings them joy. why would you go outta your way to hurt their feelings? it’s just not front of mind for me, and it’s not even in my periphery. It’s just not something I want to do. But again. I used to do it, and I used to do it because my feelings of insecurity, my deep down need to feel like I wasn’t worthless, I wish it was exaggerating, but there was a lot going on inside of me before I figured myself out. But that really deep need to feel like I wasn’t awful, that usurped. My kindness sometimes. My kindness now I think is front and center, but also I’m much more confident. the nice thing about working in a coffee shop all day. Is I see a variety of people come in and everyone is so unique, especially when you work in the queer village, like everybody is so unique and brings their own flavor of life in there. And it is really opened my eyes to. How beautiful that is. I already loved diversity. I love it even more now, and I love that I can walk into a bookstore and there are thousands and thousands of books on the shelves, and that each one of them is written for someone. Each one of them is gonna be something that somebody picks up and goes. That’s what I love, like. I love Bigfoot, love Cryptids, but especially Bigfoot’s, my guy. Bigfoot’s my guy a hundred percent. He is real. Don’t care what any of you say. No, don’t care about your science. I did my own research. Bigfoot’s the real deal. Thank you. and sometimes people laugh at me because I love Bigfoot so much. I’ve got stickers all over my laptop. I have a couple shirts, like I love the dude. It’s great. And that I, can I tell you why? No, I could not tell you why. I just know that the idea that there might be some weird creature out there that people have seen, but we’ve never been able to prove and you know, did they really see it? Or was it a bear or, it brings me so much joy. So if I’m gonna be that guy that likes Bigfoot and Dreams about going to a Bigfoot conference but is really scared because a lot of them are in places where they vote for people that would not be, super friendly to me. and so I probably will never go if I can be that guy. Why can’t. You, whoever you might be. Like the Hunger Games, which by the way, I also really liked and read so rapidly on my, I think it was like my 40th birthday. God, I love that series, but I understand that it’s not for everybody. I don’t know, like I just don’t understand why we can’t just all have our things. [00:24:35] Lara: Yeah, I think a lot of people don’t necessarily want. To have other people feel badly when they say they don’t like something, but they don’t realize what their words can do to make other people feel. Sometimes they’re trying to be funny. It’s just a joke. I’m just trying to be funny. I was like, okay, but your joke is not nice. So know that. certainly I used to love to go on a whole bit about how I didn’t like certain kinds of things. But now I say something different. So if you said to me, Lara, I am going on a two week canoe camping trip, I might now say I love that for you because never do I ever want to do that. [00:25:23] Rowan: I love that for you. [00:25:27] Lara: I love that for you. Same with people who wanna walk the Camino oh, I love that for you. Clearly when I say that, I am saying it because I am saying that is not to my taste. [00:25:40] Rowan: I’m gonna be paying attention to that when we talk. [00:25:44] Lara: Yeah, you watch out, [00:25:47] Rowan: it’s great. [00:25:48] Lara: But I love that for you and I truly do. Like, if that is something you like, go do it. Just because I don’t wanna do it doesn’t mean it’s bad. And so I do think some of the way that we communicate. it’s just always been that way. So we’ve never noticed that some of the things we say or some of the ways we react aren’t the nicest. And if we think about it a little bit, we can likemake small tweaks that mean that we are not yucking someone’s yum in a way that is very. I don’t wanna say careless, but like they’re not even noticing they’re doing it. They’re not like intentionally being like, you are stupid for liking that. They’re just like talking without noticing that what they’re doing could make somebody else feel shitty about what they’re saying they like. And I think that it’s a simple thing to change and to start noticing and to realize is worth changing. [00:26:46] Rowan: I think this is where neurodivergents are changing the game, and so thank you to all my neuros spicy friends because special interests Are being talked about more and more. A lot of autistic people will tell you they have special interests and of course the. Stereotypical one would be trains, but there are so many, right? I have a friend who loves like urban planning, that is their thing. They love urban planning. They watch videos on urban planning and they don’t wanna do it as a job. They’re just fascinated by it. Right? to the point where I’ve met so many people like this, that I’m like, it’d be really cool to have a special interest event. At my coffee shop. Like just in the evening. where everybody can present their special interests for like 15 minutes. Everybody gets like a 15 minute window. And I think that’s so cool. And it’s the complete opposite, like the complete 180. Of yucking someone else’s. Yum. because what you’re doing is you’re giving them space to share what brings them joy and you’re learning something at the same time. Maybe you’re learning that, hey, whatever that thing that was that you thought was boring or not so good or whatever might actually be kind to cool, even if it’s not your thing, like you’re actively celebrating. Other people’s interests. That is amazing and we all need to do more of it. [00:28:13] Lara: Have you heard of these PowerPoint parties people are having now? [00:28:16] Rowan: Yeah, that’s where I got the idea from. [00:28:19] Lara: I, think it’s amazing. I love the idea, right? Everybody make a PowerPoint on your favorite thing and talk about it for 10 minutes. I’ve seen them doing it with explain your job ‘cause none of us really understand what you do. what a great thing to say. You know things I don’t know, And I would like to learn from you instead of feeling bad because you don’t know everything. Or like, there’s just so many ways that we can flip the script to being like, this is a good thing. And yeah, I really hope people just realize from this conversation, or maybe they already did and we’re just reinforcing it, that it’s fine for people to like different things than you. In fact it’s good. [00:29:01] Rowan: It’s good. Beautiful words. And the last words of this episode, I think we are going to leave it there. We would love to know what you think about this entire topic. Do you think that we are yucking people’s yum too much? As a general rule, do you think that there are good reasons for it? What did you think about the idea of not supporting problematic artists? I would love to know. I know Lara would love to know. So drop us a line, send us an email, comment on our substack. Subscribe to us anywhere you get your podcast, and we will see you next time. Thanks for joining us. [00:29:39] Lara: Thanks. This is a public episode. 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42: Heated Rivalry Part 2

The first Heated Rivalry Episode became our most downloaded podcast episode ever - and we know we left you hanging when we only got through 3 of Lara’s 8 topics in the first episode (she had so many notes!) Lace up those skates, because we’re back for a second episode on this megahit of a show. Today we dig into themes like consent, bi representation, and parasocial relationships. Have any other topics you’d like to us to cover? Drop us an email or let us know in the comments. And don’t forget to subscribe on Substack or wherever you listen to your podcasts. Our audience is growing and we’d love to have you join us! Transcript [00:00:00] Rowan: we need to show some grace. To any actor, any artist at all, anybody who has any level of fame, to show them some grace and just let them have a little bit of privacy. Welcome to unboxing it. I’m Lara. And I’m Rowan. [00:00:38] Lara: And we are back for more Heated Rivalry, which as everyone who has been listening to the show since the beginning of 2026 knows is something I’m all right with. [00:00:50] Rowan: It’s something I’m all right with too. I mean, I wasn’t going to do two episodes on this, but I love the show since you forced me to watch it. [00:00:59] Lara: Which you’re not the only one. I have, we won’t say forced. We will say strongly encouraged to watch the show because I think it’s great. So we did episode one. It’s one of our most listened to most downloaded episodes ever. We clearly have some people who were just out there, searching for Heated Rivalry content, and I am. Thrilled to have you here and hope that you continue to enjoy the takes that we have on our topics. [00:01:28] Rowan: And like, full disclosure, I have let Lara lead this thing, so I once again do not even know what these topics are that we’re talking about today. I said. Surprise me. just lay it on me and,get my full, unfiltered reaction to whatever it is we’re talking about today. [00:01:48] Lara: Yes. So one of the things that I think I heard most from the first episode we did of Heated Rivalry content was that I announced that I had eight points I wanted to cover during our chat. And we got through three and people are like, what are the other five? So you get to hear, more of those five today and we’ll see how many we can cover this time. [00:02:12] Rowan: I’m hoping for all five, but I don’t think we’re gonna get there. I have a feeling that we’re going to have lots to talk about. So, you know, at worst, what we do, a third episode, I’m all right with that. [00:02:23] Lara: And a lot of these topics, as we did in the first one, we’re using Heated Rivalry as a point of context to talk about topics that I think were important to talk about. But then that becomes a little bit more than a conversation just about the show, right? this isn’t just, let’s pick apart . This show or this book, it’s, these are topics that come up and I’m so glad they came up and this is why, and this is, maybe how they did it, but this is why we need to keep talking about that topic because I think it’s important. So yeah, we may or may not get through them all. I also know, we’ve gotten feedback from people. They’re like, Hey, talk more about queer joy. Talk more about, So many different parts we talked about last time, we could go deeper. So who knows what the future will bring. this is not a Heated Rivalry podcast, but you know, if it’s my special interest this year, it’s gonna come up a lot. [00:03:20] Rowan: And boy has it come up a lot. [00:03:23] Lara: Listen, I try not to make it be all I talk about, but it’s relevant. It is relevant to what we do here. So let’s just bring the things I love together. [00:03:35] Rowan: Perfect. Let’s do it. [00:03:36] Lara: So the next point on my list was about consent. [00:03:42] Rowan: Mm. [00:03:43] Lara: In this show they do such a beautiful job of modeling consent, so it’s not like this conversation where it’s like, consent is important. Do you give consent sign on this line? But I think that as people who grew up in the nineties. Consent was not something we talked about. In fact, I feel like the way that I was taught to deal with relationships was to expect to have my feelings, not always taken into consideration to expect people to try to maybe, bulldoze over my consent and to try to figure out how to make sure. That I knew how to set boundaries and say no, and it was my job to know to say no loudly versus the conversations around consent that have come up since then where we talk about the fact that we have the right to say no to anything that is happening to our bodies. And I think that we need to talk about that more. And in the show. Ilya in particular is very good at consistently asking for consent. Like, is this okay? Do you want to do this? Do you like this? Right? they’re not like these heavy questions. It’s just these little check-ins to make sure that moving forward makes sense. And I think modeling that is not something I’ve seen very much. If we can model that and have everybody take that into consideration in life, it’s just gonna be better for people. [00:05:23] Rowan: I think a lot when we talk about consent of that picture from the end of World War ii, and we all know this picture where there is a soldier who’s leaning a woman over and kissing her, and a lot of stories were created around that photo. But my understanding, and I’ve yet to fact check this, so take this with a grain of salt, but my understanding is that they did not know each other. That he basically just grabbed her and kissed her, and a photo was taken and this became iconic. And for women especially, and those of us like me, a trans man who were socialized. As girls and women as we were growing up, this was sort of expected that if a man liked you, he would eventually just lean over and kiss you and touch you and yeah. It was your responsibility to tell him no. He would keep going. Until you tell him no. And you had to be very clear about that no. And I first of all, love this new model of asking people if they would like to be kissed. I really don’t like. When older people, and I say older people like me, I really don’t like when older people go, that’s not sexy. It can’t possibly be sexy. And so I applaud Heated Rivalry for having these very erotic, very sexy scenes where consent is a part of it because you are brought right into that scene. It is hot, it is heavy, and consent just in some way just makes it even hotter like It is fantastic how it’s done. I also like that it’s between two men. I like That consent is practiced between two men because a lot of times when we see stories about consent, whether it is asked for and received or not, it is. Around a straight couple. It’ll be a man and a woman, and the man is asking for consent or should be asking for consent, or the woman is pushing him away because he did not have consent. And so this was very cool to see this modeled. I really hope that it changes the conversation around it. [00:07:51] Lara: Yeah. And in the second sexual scene, there is a section where, again, Ilya asks for something Shane isn’t comfortable. Basically says, not this time, and the response is, okay, next time. Right? So it was a very good demonstration of asking. Getting an answer and accepting the answer and moving on. And again, that’s what we need to model. It’s okay to say no. That doesn’t mean everything is terrible, and now the moment is lost. It just means maybe whatever that thing was, we’re not gonna do it today. And I’m okay with that. [00:08:29] Rowan: Yeah, we’re not gonna do it today. Maybe we’re not gonna do whatever. Everybody likes different things. [00:08:33] Lara: [00:08:34] Rowan: It is such a. I wanna use the term wholesome because I think in that moment, even though these, again, these are sex scenes and they’re pretty graphic sex scenes. even in those moments, , there’s this pureness, this real sweetness around consent. Like, it’s like, I’m really into you. I really want you, but I really wanna check in and make sure you’re okay with it. And I don’t know, it just made me really happy as someone who grew up, in the eighties and the nineties, where this was just not a thing. we’re really seeing it now. I mean, obviously we knew things like rape were a thing. we absolutely knew that was wrong, although there were some blurred lines around that too. [00:09:17] Lara: Yeah. [00:09:17] Rowan: but. Seeing that, I don’t know. I just think the youth are okay. The youth are gonna be okay. Gives me a lot of hope for the future. [00:09:26] Lara: Yeah, and I think that something I did with my kids that I think I’m hoping will change some of the conversation and I remember, some of the feedback about something as small as this, which I’ll tell you what it is in a minute, was like, it’s not such a big deal. Why are you making it a big deal? But I think again, it’s. Knowing that you don’t have to accept something that doesn’t feel good to you. So for me, tickling was a big thing, right? So when I was little, there was the whole, somebody would tickle you till you were basically begging for mercy and hoped that begging for mercy would mean that they stopped. [00:10:00] Rowan: Yeah. [00:10:01] Lara: Which. Probably it would, but also maybe it wouldn’t because it was really funny to them. And so,ha ha ha. But to me, and I always said this to my kids. If you don’t want something, say, I do not consent. , You know, I’ve heard kids roughhousing in my house and been like, say I do not consent. And then,I’m just like reinforcing it all the time. I do not consent and, I’ll come in and back you up to the end of the world if you say, I do not want that. We’re done. There’s no ifs, ands, or, but even if you’re playing, even if you’re joking, even if whatever, if they say, I do not want that, we do not do it. And I just don’t think back to the tickling example. no, no, stop. Stop is definitely things people said. About being tickled, but you had to do this whole, like, I’m begging for mercy for you to stop. I don’t know if you experienced this as much, but it’s certainly something I had. and it would be like grandparents or like, itwasn’t just, anybody like, it was really just how I remember people being like, they will tickle you till you throw up, unless you beg them to stop. [00:11:14] Rowan: Yeah, , that did happen to me as well. It was very common. And the other thing that was common that we’re now changing the conversation around is things like, oh, go give your aunt a kiss. She wants a kiss. go. Give your grandpa a hug. He wants a hug. No, no go. You’re gonna make him sad. Go hug your grandpa. Like when you really think about that, what message is that sending that. Somebody else has more control over your body and what you do with it than you do like It sets a very dangerous precedent that this adult can have what they want from me because they want it. And so I was never like that with my children. I always said like, do you want to go give your cousin a hug? No. Okay. Do you wanna wave goodbye then? Alright. Okay. Let’s wave goodbye. There’s always that, when I meet little kids in my coffee shop, and, we share a moment like we, maybe I show them where the books are or like, I’m walking them around. We have a little fairy door in there and I show them the fairy whatever, you know, whatever it is. We have a nice little connection at the end. I say like, , it was really nice to meet you. Do you like to give high fives? Can I have a high five? You know, and ifthey shake their heads, no. I’m like, that’s okay. Thank you so much for coming in. Right. They need to learn. They have control over their own bodies. They can make that decision. It is really creepy to me when I think about. Making young people give hugs, making young people give or accept kisses, making young people sit on someone’s lap when they don’t want to. Right? there’s a lot of stuff that we have done that has perpetuated this anti consent model, and from a very young age it sends all the wrong messages. So yeah, it is really nice to see that. not only are we modeling consent in a lot of shows and movies now, but. The world is so anti LGBT, a lot of the world is right now. And where are we seeing these really healthy relationships? We’re watching it on Heated Rivalry. We’re watching these two people ask and receive and choosing not to give consent whenever they don’t feel comfortable. So not only are we seeing queer joy, we’re seeing healthy relationship models. [00:13:40] Lara: Yeah. And there’s one other section that I wanted to take note of, which is, there’s a part where, again, Ilya asks Shane have you ever done this? And Shane hadn’t. And Ilya says, you’re scared. And Shane gets very defensive, right? Like, I’m not scared. And he says, no, it’s okay. Right? And again. That’s part of a really good conversation just because somebody said something. Just because you’re scared, you know whether or not that means you’re not gonna do it. Whether or not it means you are gonna do it, whether or not it just means more of a conversation. It’s a conversation. It’s okay for you to feel how you feel. That’s not a problem. I hear you. I see you. Let’s figure out what comes next. Not, ugh. [00:14:28] Rowan: Come on. Yeah. Yeah. I was in those situations sometimes, right? chose not to give consent to take things further. And in those situations it was , with men, with boys at the time. Yeah. Like teenage boys, you know, ‘cause we were young. and they would take it so personally. Like, oh, what? What? Like, we just had such a nice day, like I was really into you, or whatever it might be. Right. And and we need to teach everyone, but especially our sons not to behave that way. I think that’s getting better too. But when you see Ilya just Really accept that it is all right, that Shane doesn’t want to do something and dig deeper about what his fears might be. It’s beautiful. It’s beautiful and especially contrasted with his very. Rough exterior. You know, hehe’s a little gruff. He’s very direct. trying to find the right words for it. But, you know, , he’s stoic. He doesn’t show a lot of emotion for a lot of the show. And so to see those gentler moments, I think models a healthy masculinity. [00:15:52] Lara: I agree. Which leads me to my next point around the actors. So Connor Storrie and Hudson Williams are the actors who play Ilya and Shane. And I think that, this is not about the show, but it is about the show that these two men are really good examples of healthy masculinity like they are. Comfortable being friends and still being affectionate with each other. They are just examples of men that are not what we’ve often seen, and I think that they’re emotionally open, they’re physically open, and teaching men, teaching people that that’s okay. Is another nice. Example, it’s another good modeling that is out there, and I have found that to be very interesting to watch. I know not everybody who watches the show, watches all the edits and the extra interviews and so on, but, I have, and it’s been amazing to watch. I really find it fascinating including that they are setting really strong boundaries. Based on their fame and saying this is what I’m okay with and this is what I’m not okay with and this is how I’m gonna deal with it. And they’re not being, aggressive in any way, but they are being themselves and not changing who they are and taking care of themselves. [00:17:20] Rowan: So to your first point in case. You’ve never heard us before and do not know what I do for a living. I currently own a coffee shop and I’m there, all day, every day, most days. it’s in the heart of the gay village, the queer village here in Toronto. And so a lot of queer people come in and what I love, one of the things that I love. Is that when two men or male presenting people come in, I often can’t tell if they are a couple or if they’re friends because a lot of queer men and queer masculine people. Just show affection to each other without all those toxic masculinity behaviors where like, you can’t reach over and hold his hand. If he’s going through something, you can’t like rub his. Shoulder, his arm if he’s ha like there’s a warmth to the relationship and so it’s none of my business what the relationship is, but I just, sometimes they share with me how they know each other. Sometimes they’re friends. Sometimes they’re partners, they’re just, it’s various things, but it’s lovely. It’s lovely. And yeah, and seeing that , in the interviews between the two actors, I can guarantee I have not watched as many as you have, Lara. But, but it is really nice to see. and as for the boundary setting. Somebody gave me advice really early on when I was first, starting to appear in media when I was first writing a book. , you know, , , when a lot of eyes were on me and my family and they said, you are in control of your own story. You get to tell as much or as little of it as you’d like. That’s your story, your narrative, and I’ve held onto that the entire time. So sometimes people will come in, you know, to the shop or just run into me on the street or come to an event that I’m at or whatever, and they’ll say. I feel like I know you. I get that a lot actually. I feel like I know you is something that most people will say on this. I say like, it’s 75% of the people that meet me for the first time because I do share a lot of things about myself. [00:19:37] Rowan: But there are things I don’t share at all that are very private to me, that are private to my family, that are sacred that I hold onto. So they do know parts of me. That’s true. And who I am is very present in what I bring to the table. I would say I’m a pretty authentic person, but I love that more and more celebrities, people far more famous than I am. Like, I’m like maybe at best of micro celeb, right? Like people who have worldwide fame are doing so without. Giving away the parts of themselves that they don’t want to, for the sake of fame, for getting an article published that wouldn’t get published, that they didn’t reveal this about themselves or that about themselves. They’re just like, no, I’m not doing that. And they’re putting their job first. I’m an actor. You can know a little bit about me, but you’re not gonna know everything about me because. I need to have a private life. I need to have boundaries. So it goes back to the whole consent thing again, right? It’s all about those boundaries and about choosing what it is that you want to bring forward and what it is you want to keep to yourself, whether it is your body, information about yourself, whatever. So, again, I can’t imagine. Rocketing to fame at a young age, the way these two actors have? just from being not very well known, still working other jobs, you know, working actors, very much like working other things. and going from that to being two of the most famous people in the world. And I think they’re handling it at least from the outside very well. [00:21:19] Lara: Yeah, and I think. It used to be that the expectation was famous, people couldn’t have privacy. I know, Chappell Roan is a good example of somebody who was like, I am not okay with how some of the fans are behaving with me. And a lot of people were like, why are you so ungrateful? And I think. That it’s so important to understand. These are human beings. They do not need to give you anything. You are not entitled to anything. And I don’t think the folks listening to this podcast are probably thinking they are, but I just think, again, it’s another good reminder that people get to decide what they’re okay with. And. We accept what they decide even if we don’t always love it. You know Connor Storrie has pretty much taken off his social media presence. So unless it is some kind of a brand deal or an official announcement, he’s not doing it anymore. Do I wish he was still putting out what he was putting out before? Yeah, it would be fun to watch, but that’s not up to me. End of story. [00:22:25] Rowan: he has to preserve his wellbeing in all of this. [00:22:29] Lara: Yeah. [00:22:29] Rowan: we have seen what happens when celebrities get overwhelmed with the expectations that are placed upon them. and we’ve lost a lot of people, quite young who had a very difficult time handling that. And I don’t mean handling, Going to work as an actor or singing, or performing in some way. I mean, all of the other things. Having not a lick of privacy, having everything about your life tracked, having people obsessed with you. And I’ve always wondered why we do that, right? Because I can really deeply appreciate somebody’s, Work. Somebody’s talent, somebody’s music, somebody’s acting skills, and I can just leave it there. I’ve always been able to just leave it there and go, yeah, I really like that. but without naming anybody. We had a very famous person come into the shop recently,very, very, very famous, and we acted like we didn’t even know this person, and we just served them their food and they sat down and they did their thing for a little bit all by themselves, and every single other person in our shop left them alone too, by the way. And I think they had a really nice time because they came back the next day and did it again. And then they left. Right. And I will never disclose who that person was and I would never, even if they came in, ask them for a selfie or anything else. I love. That they chose this space to come in, and I love that they were able to feel safe for a little while and away from whatever it was that they were doing and leave. I think that’s amazing. Like, everyone deserves that. Celebrities get very, very, very little of it. [00:24:23] Lara: Yeah. It’s the whole parasocial relationship, which can mean that people feel entitled. It can also be things like, you know, oh, I’m worrying. I’m worrying about them. because like this is so much for them to take on. But then again, it’s not like I don’t know them. It is not my responsibility to go out there and try to protect them. Like,I think people take on these relationships that don’t exist and it starts to feel like a relationship that does exist and that’s dangerous, and that’s why. there are some very famous people, like you said, who are no longer with us. We’ve seen it with some of the boy bands, with people who’ve fallen into addiction and not made it right. Like , there has been a death in the last couple years. That was a really big one. and I think that part of that is not being able to handle the fame, not being able to handle the pressure, not being able to handle. people giving you drugs and the party culture and not being able to handle all of it until life just isn’t, like, just being rich and famous is not a great life. If all these other things are pressuring you and making you feel like crap and you’re, constantly being tempted by things like, it’s a lot. [00:25:35] Rowan: I had my own very small version of that where I got well known in my specific field for the specific work I do, and everyone wanted to talk to me and I had Hundreds of thousands of followers across social media platforms, and I was booked solid for engagements. I had a number one bestselling book, and I was like, okay, yeah, I made it. Look at me. I did it. Wow. And I felt so empty because everyone tells you that, that. Is what success should be. Society teaches you that if you get to this level of whatever it is, success, stardom, et cetera, it will somehow fix what’s inside of you. Right? But I wasn’t content enough in where I was with myself and so.You start to realize that in that space, everybody just wants something from you and you can’t trust anyone because some people are genuinely great and some people just want to use you. It is a very lonely place to be. So I think from my very limited standpoint on that, that we need to show some grace. To any actor, any artist at all, anybody who has any level of fame, to show them some grace and just let them have a little bit of privacy. Now, I say this and some people who make the trip in to Understory to say hi to me are gonna be like, oh, Rowan doesn’t wanna talk to me. No, no, no. I love that though. If I didn’t love that, I wouldn’t have a coffee shop where you can just come in and talk to me. Yeah, that’s totally different. and, sometimes people want a picture and that’s cool too. Look, I think that’s lovely , you know, but I’m talking about the people who. We’re in a TV show or a movie or something and never get a moment’s piece, They can’t go to the grocery store, they can’t go have dinner, they can’t go to the park with their dog or their kid. they just never get a moment. That’s different. I do think that just remembering the humanity in absolutely everyone. I say this all the time, I’m gonna say it until people are sick of it. Remembering the humanity in everyone is crucial. [00:28:04] Lara: Yeah, absolutely. All right. will do at least one more. So I’ve talked about, representation. In the first episode, we talked about the representation that I saw of like good humans, right? And we had a few examples with the parents and the allies. But the other one that I really thought, or the other ones that I thought were really. Good in this show is, and some of them are named and some of them are not named. So for example, Ilya is bisexual, and I think bisexual representation is important and we can dig further into that. Shane is autistic. This never comes up in the show, but if you’re watching and you think, wow, some of these quirks seem a bit. Spectrum. It has been confirmed by the author and Hudson played it that way. Jacob Tierney agreed with it, like it was absolutely a decision that they accepted and played into it. Shane is on the spectrum, and there’s also one of the actors who is trans. In the show. So these are, again, more representations I think are important. Like the more we see it, the more we see somebody who has some of these traits that we might’ve thought of as kind of quirky, but we normalize it. So the autism stuff, I think it’s good. I think talking about bisexuality, because there’s a lot of people who feel like bisexuality. Isn’t a thing, right? So either, if it’s a man who says they’re bisexual, they’re secretly actually gay, or if it’s a woman saying they’re bisexual, it’s actually just like a phase, right? Like people really like to pretend it’s not possible for somebody to be bisexual. And the more we talk about it and the more people are like, no, I’m bi, I think. that’s a good thing. So those were a few of the examples that I thought were really good to see there. Again, [00:30:07] Rowan: well representation. Hello, I’m bisexual. So there we go. , More of that for everyone. I loved that they didn’t discuss Ilya’s sexuality until a lot later in the show. I can’t remember exactly when it was, but it just came up in a conversation and he mentions it and that’s it. And then it just, , in relation to Shane’s sexuality and then it’s kind of done. [00:30:34] Lara: say it’s interesting because in the books, Ilya is in all of the books and there are times where he’ll meet somebody and they’re like, oh, I’m bisexual. He’s bisexual. Me too, right? it’s I’m so happy other people are talking about this. It’s a thing, right? Look at me. I am telling you I am bi. and it’s not like he’s super open about it, but it comes up and you can see. there’s almost like a,a feeling in it. Like, I don’t get to see this very much because people don’t talk about being bi. Yay. Good for you for saying it. Like, there’s that, that comes up in some of the other books. So I I know that’s not in the show, but it does come up in the books, which I think is good. [00:31:10] Rowan: Yeah, I love that. I love that one of the things that has frustrated me more recently is every pride season I see discourse on the internet about, you know, no straights at Pride, no straight couples at Pride. I’m like, first of all, everyone should be able to come to Pride also. You have straight couples, first of all, that are, say a trans man and a trans woman, what they shouldn’t be at Pride. Or you’ll have a seemingly straight couple walking down the street, but they’re both bisexual or one of them is bi , or pan and they just happen to be together. Just happens to be, a hetero relationship. I think. Bi-erasure is very painful to a lot of bisexual people. It is mocked. Even within the community, sometimes it is still seen, even within the community, sometimes as being less than, or someone who just hasn’t fully come out yet. Someone who is just, yeah, was just going through a phase, just having a little fun before they settle down in the burbs and have a bunch of kids and it’s ugly, right? It’s like when we already have so much hate lobbed at us. It doesn’t need to be coming from inside the house. So I’m glad that there was bi representation. I’m glad that they played it well. I’m glad to see that autism was represented. I think that’s really nice in the sense that it wasn’t a whole story arc that he’s autistic. It’s just. Part of who he is. And, Harrison Brown, who is the trans man, Harrison and I, go back a little bit. We did a talk together, a year or two ago , and that’s where I met him for the first time. But Harrison is fantastic and I just love that, he was just like another hockey player, like they just decided. we’re gonna put a trans dude as a hockey player. that’s amazing. and I actually know until I watched the show and I was like, Hey, I know this person. Oh, that’s so fun. Right. and those subtle inclusions where it’s. There just happens to be another guy in the locker room, right? Just another hockey player. Having these conversations, those subtle acts of inclusion are just as important as the more overt acts of inclusion. Those subtle acts of, I think just noticing that somebody is maybe behaving in a way that is more neurodivergent, but it’s not overtly spoken of. Just, I think, allows for more acceptance of, neurodivergent, I don’t wanna say behaviors, I think that might not be the right word, like things that happen, like maybe some of the, , extra overwhelm, whatever is going on. creates more acceptance of society in general and I just, I think it’s great. I think they did such a good job. [00:34:09] Lara: Yeah. one of the examples in the very first episode that you see a quirk is when Shane folds his clothes as he’s getting undressed. So he is getting undressed and he like folds his pants and puts them down and folds his shirt and puts it down instead of just like getting undressed. And the response from Ilya is to like. Grin and like, that’s a funny little quirk you’ve got, but not in a, like, what are you doing? Like, oh, that’s a funny thing that you’re doing. It’s cute and I love it. Like it’s the response That it feels like you get and yeah, it’s just, Being very much these are my safe foods. I don’t eat this, I do this. there’s some like rigidity, around food. And again, it’s just like a little bit in there. And I think having that representation in all three of those examples I gave you without it being overt is important. It’s just normal. [00:35:02] Rowan: yeah, it’s a spectrum too, right? [00:35:05] Lara: Mm-hmm. [00:35:05] Rowan: Like, I have a child who, is autistic and I did the same test myself, that the psychologist gave my child and I scored, definitely way too low. To be autistic, but there were some things about me that were higher up. Food texture, being one of them. Food textures are so bad for me. Some of them like, don’t even get me started on mushrooms or, noise because of my synesthesia. so really noisy environments can be very exhausting for me. So things like that. And yeah, so it creates this acceptance for everybody. Who is a little neurodivergent? I just, I’m making lots of smiley faces right now because it just really became a show about inclusion in so many more ways than these two hockey rivals who to be into each other. [00:36:03] Lara: Yeah, for sure. I think there’s just one last one that I think we’ll cover because it kind of associates with that , it, it’s the validating of feelings, right? So we talked about that a little bit already, but there’s, you know, like a couple crash outs, right? so in the very last episode again I mean, we’ve talked about the fact that there are some spoilers as we’re talking, but in the very last episode, there’s a scene where Shane is crashing out. Like, oh my God, this is my nightmare. This is the scariest thing I’ve ever dealt with, and I. Apparently when that scene was being filmed, Hudson who plays Shane, played it in a way that Jacob Tierney, who was the director, was like, that’s a bit much like you seem to be going over the top with this, but I’m gonna let you like, get through it and whatnot. And then later when it was being edited, people were like, this is really good, right? this is how some people will crash out. Maybe not everybody would crash out in such a like. This is the end of the world kind of way. But some will. so number one, yeah, like that is a way some people react. So we’ve seen that, right? Like a big crash out. But then the response is like, yeah, this is scary. So there’s a line I love, because Shane says, I’m so scared and Ilya says. Yes, it’s scary, but you’re brave. And Shane says, shut up. First of all, the shut up was so relatable to me because if somebody told me I was brave, I would be like, shut up. Don’t try to make me feel better. Don’t tell me I’m brave. That is not helpful. But Ilya’s like, no, you’re brave. And just hugs him. And that is a way to just support somebody, validate them and help them regulate their emotions in a time when they’re not able to do it themselves. And it was just another good modeling. It’s not, the only time it happens, but it’s like, Hey, you’re freaking out. It’s okay. I’m here. You’re not alone. Feel my energy bringing you back down. We’re okay here, and I really loved to see that. [00:38:13] Rowan: This warms my Gen X heart, because a lot of us were basically just taught to stuff our feelings down. That we need to suck it up. how many times were you told to suck it up? Because I was told a ton. [00:38:26] Lara: Yeah. Suck it up. Or just it’s not a big deal. Right. It’s the whole, you’re okay. You’re okay. Don’t worry about it. Don’t worry about it. Like, you’re fine. Versus. You’re scared and that’s okay. And we can get through it and we will be all right. But not because I’m telling you, you shouldn’t be scared, but because I’m telling you it’s okay that you’re scared. [00:38:47] Rowan: Yeah. one is very much about like, don’t cry, don’t cry. don’t freak out, don’t do that. And the other is. Yes, of course you’re going to cry right now. Of course you’re freaking out right now. That’s understandable. And we’re gonna get through it. it’s the behavior, the support that we see between these two characters is really, I think I’ve used this term lovely like 50 times in this recording, but it is lovely, lovely is the right term. beautiful. it’s healing in a way to see, again, not only queer representation to that level, but queer representation that is healthy. It’s great. [00:39:31] Lara: Yeah, and you know, acknowledging the fact that it wasn’t always healthy. These folks had a, nine year situationship with a lot of miscommunication. But seeing some of that turn around, seeing some of these examples of how you can deal with things in a really great way, I think it was just, it was different, right? Like, I just think what I liked about this show is that it was real. Kinds of scenarios I’ve encountered. Maybe I wasn’t in exactly that encountered, but I’ve been scared. I’ve been angry when somebody tried to make me feel better. I’ve been, really grateful of somebody supporting me. Like, all of these things are true things that happen and people are complicated and people have feelings that they’re allowed to have. And all of that just being represented I think was really great. [00:40:20] Rowan: It was really great. [00:40:21] Lara: So we’ve mostly covered, there’s a couple more points that we haven’t covered. One of them is around hockey culture, which I don’t really feel like I have a lot to say anyway. But I do think it was good that it was covered. I think that if somebody else was gonna have a conversation to talk about that more in depth, it would be great. I just think that. That was one of them. But mostly we’ve covered my points and I think I could talk about this forever as everybody now gets, but I think it’s in that sphere of I love that we can have these conversations. It’s not just a Heated Rivalry. let’s pick it apart for the sake of. A fandom, but I think that there were some really good topics in there. So I hope people enjoyed this conversation. If there’s more people wanna talk about, let us know. I think, again, it’s not a podcast about Heated Rivalry, so we’re not gonna talk about it in every episode, but there is room to keep talking about stuff, and if anybody like the author or the director, or any of the actors wants to come on our show. Please let us know because you are invited. [00:41:29] Rowan: Yeah, and if you come to my coffee shop, I’ll just act like I don’t know you [00:41:33] Lara: unless you, say that you want to be acknowledged. So just make sure you say hi. [00:41:37] Rowan: yeah, give consent. If you give consent, we’ll take a selfie and I’ll tell you that I adore you and that Lara’s hopping in the car and driving here right now. Can you please hang out for five hours? But [00:41:48] Lara: yeah, I’ll be right there. [00:41:49] Rowan: yeah. It’s fine. It’s fine. truly this has been great and I am very much looking forward to our next episode, which will not be about Heated Rivalry, but I’m sure this is gonna come back up. [00:42:02] Lara: Yeah. Because there’s gonna be a season two. [00:42:05] Rowan: I have heard rumors that they might film parts of season two. Right around where I work, [00:42:13] Lara: and they might film some of season two in Ottawa. [00:42:17] Rowan: Ooh, okay. Mm-hmm. Okay. Well.I know someone who’s gonna be scouting out locations. It’s not me. I’m too busy serving coffee [00:42:27] Lara: maybe. I also don’t like to leave my house a ton, so it may just be that I still look at it online. But again, if anybody’s listening and you need a 50-year-old lady who is an ally as an extra, please feel free to reach out. [00:42:40] Rowan: Thank you so much for joining us today. We’ll see you next time. [00:42:45] Lara: All right. Thank you, and please do come and give us your feedback on our substack. We wanna hear what you think. We’ll see you in two weeks. This is a public episode. If you'd like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit unboxingit.substack.com/subscribe [https://unboxingit.substack.com/subscribe?utm_medium=podcast&utm_campaign=CTA_2]