#27: Joe Macleod on Designing Endings, Sustainable Consumption, And the EuroStack

#28: Indi Young on Mental Model Skylines, Thinking Styles, And Deep Listening

In this episode of the UX Fika podcast, I sit down with Indi Young, solution strategist, author, teacher, and creator of a method that lets teams clarify, measure, and grow their solutions and audience based on thinking styles. Indi has spent decades helping teams move beyond behaviours, opinions, demographics, and assumptions to better understand what is actually going through people's minds. In our conversation, she shares why listening remains one of the most important skills we have, and why understanding people's intentions, emotional reactions, and decision-making can reveal opportunities that organisations often leave on the table. We talk about her journey from software engineer and co-founder of Adaptive Path to developing approaches that help teams understand how people think, rather than simply what they do. Indi explains why designing for an "average user" has always been limiting, why personas often miss what matters most, and how thinking styles can help us better support different approaches, needs, and goals. We also dive into AI and what it means for discovery work. While many organisations are focused on speed and efficiency, Indi argues that the real opportunity is to use the time AI creates to better understand people, uncover overlooked relationships, and build things that genuinely matter. We explore why listening still matters, why strategy cannot simply be outsourced to AI, and why the organisations that thrive may be the ones that stop chasing competitors and start forging their own path. Along the way we talk about Adaptive Path, self-publishing books, building communities, and why so many of the most interesting ideas emerge from small groups of people working together. It's a conversation about listening, cognition, relationships, and the importance of understanding before deciding what to build. Plus: ☕️ Why spending time with her cat is her favourite fika ⭐ Why you should always travel with chocolate and almonds What we cover: 02:15 Introduction and Background 05:19 Understanding Different Perspectives in Design 08:09 The Evolution of Indi's Work and Methodology 11:17 The Importance of Purpose and Intention 14:03 Designing for Diverse Thinking Styles 17:04 The Role of AI in Modern Design 19:56 Building Relationships Through Design 23:03 The Need for Slowing Down in Design 25:42 Leveraging Existing Data for Better Insights 28:44 Future Directions in Design and Research 35:46 Understanding Decision-Making Layers 40:00 The Importance of Listening 52:08 Building Relationships in Organizations 55:48 The Birth of Adaptive Path 01:02:51 Navigating the Future of Research 01:05:57 Creativity and Connectivity in Storytelling 01:10:50 The Future of Work and Self-Publishing 01:15:40 Collaboration and Community Building 01:20:43 Understanding Thinking Styles and Decision Making 01:24:30 Optimism and Grounding Work for a Better Future Where you'll find Indi: * LinkedIn [https://www.linkedin.com/in/indiyoung/] * The all-new Thinking Styles course [https://indiyoung.com/finding-thinking-styles/] with a Practice Group starting in August * The prerequisite Listening Deeply course [https://indiyoung.com/listening-deeply/] or book Time to Listen [https://indiyoung.com/books/#time-to-listen] * The Practice Groups [https://indiyoung.com/live-practice/] that I host a few times a year * Private Practice Groups [http://indiyoung.com/team-training/] that I do for teams Fun tidbits: * The I SPY illustration [https://indiyoung.com/method/], and Method explanations * Outcomes [https://indiyoung.com/outcomes/], with case studies and videos beneath each subsection * The Dog mental model Skyline [https://indiyoung.com/examples-mmd-eat-smell-prey/] Where you’ll find Anna & UX Fika: * ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Anna on LinkedIn⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ [https://www.notion.so/%E2%81%A0https://www.linkedin.com/in/annadahlstrom/%E2%81%A0]⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ * ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠UX Fika website⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ [https://www.uxfika.co/%E2%81%A0] * ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠UX Fika on Instagram⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ [https://www.instagram.com/uxfika%E2%81%A0] * ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠UX Fika on LinkedIn⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ [https://www.linkedin.com/company/ux-fika/] * ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠The UX Fika Digest newsletter⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ [https://us14.campaign-archive.com/home/?u=6b79a6151f2cfe7a4da36713d&id=686bdd5a0c] Here's a taster of what UX Fika offer: * ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Storyboarding Presentations For Presentations, Workshops & Deliverables Course⁠ [https://learn.uxfika.co/products/courses/storyboarding-presentations-workshops-and-deliverables]⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ - updated course launches 17 June * ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Storytelling For Effective Meetings & Presentations Course⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ [https://learn.uxfika.co/products/courses/storytelling-for-effective-meetings-and-presentations] - new cohort starts 14 September

#27: Joe Macleod on Designing Endings, Sustainable Consumption, And the EuroStack

In this episode of the UX Fika podcast, I sit down with Joe Macleod, founder of andEnd and pioneer of Endineering — a practice focused on designing how products, services, and relationships end. Joe has spent more than three decades working across digital, physical, and service design, including leading design at ustwo. Today, his work centres on something most organisations tend to avoid: what happens at the end. When a customer leaves. When a product is no longer used. Or when a service is no longer needed. We talk about why endings are often overlooked in design, and what it means when businesses focus almost entirely on acquisition, engagement, and retention, but not on letting go. Joe shares how poorly designed endings can create frustration, waste, and broken relationships, and why more thoughtful off-boarding can actually build trust, loyalty, and long-term value. We also dive into sustainability, consumption, and responsibility, and how designing better endings is not just a user experience challenge, but a business and societal one. Joe explains how Endineering helps organisations think beyond the moment of use, and consider the full lifecycle of what they create. Along the way we talk about behaviour, habits, and why people often hold on to things longer than they should. We also touch on Joe’s journey from leading large design teams to focusing on a niche that didn’t exist before, and what it takes to build a new category around something most people haven’t yet named. I absolutely loved this conversations and it’s intersection with storytelling, and why how things end matters just as much as how they begin. Plus: ☕️ Why coffee and a chocolate ball is his go to fika ⭐ Why get out of your head and that everything ends is worth remembering What we cover: 02:22 The Importance of Endings 08:26 Exploring Consumer Experiences and Off-Boarding 15:12 The EuroStack 16:57 The Role of Death in Design and Society 20:01 Justice and Measurement in Consumer Impact 25:56 Innovations in Endings and Off-Boarding Experiences 31:55 The Emotional Weight of Endings 35:25 The Importance of Endings in Storytelling 38:09 Consumer Lifecycle and Brand Experience 41:18 Historical Perspectives on Consumption 44:32 The Shift Towards Sustainable Consumption 47:34 The Role of AI in Modern Relationships 52:55 The Significance of Complete Stories 57:01 The Future of AI and Its Implications 01:05:02 The Role of AI in Human Connection 01:06:35 Living in Sweden: A Personal Journey 01:08:02 Digital Identity and Its Importance 01:09:26 Self-Publishing: The Author's Journey 01:13:22 Navigating Social Media and Marketing Challenges 01:18:25 Future Perspectives: Hope and Concerns 01:22:10 Life Lessons and Personal Reflections 01:24:00 Building a Business: Skills and Networking Where to find Joe & his work: * Joe on LinkedIn [https://www.linkedin.com/in/josephmacleod/] * andEnd on LinkedIn [https://www.linkedin.com/company/andend/] * andEnd's website [https://www.andend.co/] * The Endineering book [https://www.amazon.com/dp/9163947846/] * Ends book [https://www.amazon.com/dp/9163936445/] * Ends ebook [https://www.smashwords.com/books/view/744267] - 25% off discount code: NCKEV * Endineering ebook [https://www.smashwords.com/books/view/1116883] - 25% off discount code: NCKEV Where you’ll find Anna & UX Fika: * ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Anna on LinkedIn⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ [https://www.notion.so/%E2%81%A0https://www.linkedin.com/in/annadahlstrom/%E2%81%A0]⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ * ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠UX Fika website⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ [https://www.uxfika.co/%E2%81%A0] * ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠UX Fika on Instagram⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ [https://www.instagram.com/uxfika%E2%81%A0] * ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠UX Fika on LinkedIn⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ [https://www.linkedin.com/company/ux-fika/] * ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠The UX Fika Digest newsletter⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ [https://us14.campaign-archive.com/home/?u=6b79a6151f2cfe7a4da36713d&id=686bdd5a0c] Here's a taster of what UX Fika offer: * ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Storyboarding Presentations For Presentations, Workshops & Deliverables Course [https://learn.uxfika.co/products/courses/storyboarding-presentations-workshops-and-deliverables]⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ - updated course launches 17 June * ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Storytelling For Effective Meetings & Presentations Course⁠⁠⁠⁠ [https://learn.uxfika.co/products/courses/storytelling-for-effective-meetings-and-presentations] - new cohort starts 14 September

#26: Vitaly Friedman on Smashing Magazine, Complexity, And Being A Fixer

In this episode of the UX Fika podcast, I sit down with Vitaly Friedman, UX Lead, founder and editor-in-chief of Smashing Magazine, and curator of the SmashingConf conferences. Vitaly has spent more than two decades working with large organisations on complex digital systems, helping teams improve the user experience of intricate products while also figuring out how to actually measure the impact of design. In our conversation, he shares why he has always been drawn to complexity — the messy systems, the broken processes, and the difficult stakeholder situations where design often struggles to make progress. We talk about the evolution of UX over the past twenty years and why many teams still struggle to demonstrate the value of their work. Vitaly shares how measuring UX impact has become an increasingly important part of the role, and why designers need better ways to connect their decisions to real outcomes for users and organisations. We also dive into AI and what it means to design effective AI experiences. Vitaly explains why many current AI interfaces are still clumsy and confusing, and why designing for AI requires us to rethink how we handle uncertainty, feedback, and user expectations. Along the way we talk about Smashing Magazine and the community around it, how conferences create spaces for designers to learn from one another, and why writing, teaching, and sharing knowledge has always been central to his work. Plus what the world will be like in 2047, why he’s a fixer, what made him start singing in the shower again. It’s the kind of conversation I did not want to end. Plus: ☕️ Why a flat white and blueberries are his go to fika ⭐ Why do something today is his advice What we cover: 00:00 Introduction and Name Origins 05:06 The Evolution of Smashing Magazine 08:16 The Journey of Freelancing and Learning 11:11 The Impact of AI on Writing and Content Creation 14:10 The Importance of Authenticity in Writing 17:12 Complexity in Design and UX 20:13 Navigating Complex Projects 23:08 The Role of Designers as Disruptors 26:07 The Future of UX and Design in a Changing Landscape 43:49 Why Designers Can Be Difficult 46:42 Building Relationships in Design 49:33 The Hero's Journey in Design 50:52 Understanding Stakeholder Perspectives 53:54 Measuring Success in Design Projects 59:47 Navigating Complex Systems 01:02:12 The Importance of Asking the Right Questions 01:04:06 Embracing Complexity in Design 01:07:39 The Role of Journey Maps 01:09:11 The Future of AI in Design 01:14:13 The Evolution of User Interfaces 01:17:32 Reflections on the Future of Work 01:20:33 What Excites Him About the Future 01:21:34 Finding Joy in Problem Solving 01:26:23 Lessons Learned from Entrepreneurship Where you’ll find Vitaly: * LinkedIn [https://www.linkedin.com/in/vitalyfriedman/] * Measure UX [https://measure-ux.com] * AI Design Patterns [https://ai-design-patterns.com] * SmashingConf [https://smashingconf.com/online-workshops] * Smashing Magazine [https://www.smashingmagazine.com/] Where you’ll find Anna & UX Fika: * ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Anna on LinkedIn⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ [https://www.notion.so/%E2%81%A0https://www.linkedin.com/in/annadahlstrom/%E2%81%A0]⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ * ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠UX Fika website⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ [https://www.uxfika.co/%E2%81%A0] * ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠UX Fika on Instagram⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ [https://www.instagram.com/uxfika%E2%81%A0] * ⁠⁠⁠⁠UX Fika on LinkedIn⁠⁠⁠⁠ [https://www.linkedin.com/company/ux-fika/] * ⁠⁠⁠⁠The UX Fika Digest newsletter⁠⁠⁠⁠ [https://us14.campaign-archive.com/home/?u=6b79a6151f2cfe7a4da36713d&id=686bdd5a0c] Here's a taster of what we offer: * ⁠⁠⁠⁠Storyboarding Presentations & Deliverables course⁠⁠⁠⁠ [https://learn.uxfika.co/products/courses/storyboarding-presentations-and-deliverables] * ⁠⁠⁠⁠Storytelling For Effective Meetings & Presentations Course⁠⁠⁠⁠ [https://learn.uxfika.co/products/courses/storytelling-for-effective-meetings-and-presentations] * ⁠⁠⁠⁠5 x One-on-one Coaching Sessions⁠⁠⁠⁠ [https://learn.uxfika.co/products/live_events/5-coaching-mentoring-sessions] * ⁠⁠⁠⁠Membership to our community the Fika Room⁠ [https://www.uxfika.co/the-fika-room/]

#25: Björn Jeffery on Toca Boca, Casino Capitalism, And Changing Perspectives

Welcome to season 4 of the UX Fika podcast where I sit down with people who have built both the big and the small, for others and themselves. Our first guest is no other than Björn Jeffery, former CEO of kids-app studio Toca Boca, now a tech columnist and podcast host at Svenska Dagbladet, and an independent analyst working at the intersection of technology, finance, and society. We talk about the early days of Toca Boca and why they didn’t make games, they made digital toys. Björn explains the difference between the two and how that distinction shaped their product philosophy, from designing for open-ended play to deliberately avoiding artificial timers, pressure loops, and mechanics that demand children’s attention. We also cover changing perspectives: moving back to Sweden after years abroad, transitioning from being part of — and the CEO of — a fast-growing company to working independently, how parenthood changed his priorities, and about zooming out from building products to analysing the systems around them. Björn shares why he believes many parts of today’s tech economy resemble what he calls casino capitalism, a shift from steady, long-term thinking toward higher-risk, more speculative behaviour driven by crypto, prediction markets, and social media narratives. We talk about how risk has become normalised, how knowledge is sometimes devalued in favour of speed and virality, and how a new generation of power brokers – influencers and online personalities – now shape financial decisions and public opinion at a scale few fully grasp. We also dive into AI and social media, and why Björn sees authenticity and taste as counter-trends to algorithmic sameness. I really loved this conversation. It holds aspect of work but also the other bits around it, the bits that makes us human, and no matter were we’re from, connects us. Plus: ☕️ Why a double cappuccino and a plain croissant is his go to fika ⭐ Why do what only you can do applies more than ever What we cover: 00:00 Introduction to Björn Jeffery and Toca Boca 03:32 The Early Days of Toca Boca 08:09 Understanding Children's Digital Play 11:25 Designing for Kids: The Toca Boca Philosophy 14:29 The Impact of Social Media on Mental Health 17:14 The Legal Responsibility of Social Media Companies 24:28 The Future of Social Media and AI 28:42 The Role of Taste and Authenticity in Content Creation 32:53 The Importance of Knowledge in the Age of AI 38:15 Augmented Bodies and Minds 42:31 Navigating the Tech and Finance Intersection 46:31 The Influence of Social Media on Financial Decisions 48:48 The New Power Brokers in Society 50:32 The Transition From Toca Boca to Advisory Work 52:04 Moving Back to Sweden 01:03:30 Final Thoughts and Advice 01:05:22 Reflection on Career and Entrepreneurship 01:08:47 Words to Live By and Favourite Fika Where you’ll find Björn: * LinkedIn [https://www.linkedin.com/in/bjornjeffery] * Substack [https://bjornjeffery.substack.com] * Twitter [https://twitter.com/bjornjeffery] * Website [https://www.bjornjeffery.com] Where you’ll find Anna & UX Fika: * ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Anna on LinkedIn⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ [https://www.notion.so/%E2%81%A0https://www.linkedin.com/in/annadahlstrom/%E2%81%A0]⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ * ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠UX Fika website⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ [https://www.uxfika.co/%E2%81%A0] * ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠UX Fika on Instagram⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ [https://www.instagram.com/uxfika%E2%81%A0] * ⁠⁠⁠UX Fika on LinkedIn⁠⁠⁠ [https://www.linkedin.com/company/ux-fika/] * ⁠⁠⁠The UX Fika Digest newsletter⁠⁠⁠ [https://us14.campaign-archive.com/home/?u=6b79a6151f2cfe7a4da36713d&id=686bdd5a0c] Here's a taster of what we offer: * ⁠⁠⁠Storyboarding Presentations & Deliverables course⁠⁠⁠ [https://learn.uxfika.co/products/courses/storyboarding-presentations-and-deliverables] * ⁠⁠⁠Storytelling For Effective Meetings & Presentations Course⁠⁠⁠ [https://learn.uxfika.co/products/courses/storytelling-for-effective-meetings-and-presentations] * ⁠⁠⁠5 x One-on-one Coaching Sessions⁠⁠⁠ [https://learn.uxfika.co/products/live_events/5-coaching-mentoring-sessions] * ⁠⁠⁠Membership to our community the Fika Room⁠ [https://www.uxfika.co/the-fika-room/]

Trailer Season 4: The Founders

Welcome to Season 4 of the UX Fika podcast: The Founders. This season is about the people behind the things we see. Some have built big, global companies. Others have built small, intentional businesses around the life they want to live. Some planned it. Some stumbled into it. What fascinates me are the stories behind the building — the risks, the trade-offs, the perspective shifts, and the lessons learned along the way. In a time when almost anyone can build almost anything, what does it really mean to create something that matters? We’ll talk about work, leadership, independence, and life. And yes, we’ll still ask about fika ☕️ If you enjoy the show, follow, rate, and share it with someone who might benefit. Happy listening. Where you’ll find Anna & UX Fika: * ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Anna on LinkedIn⁠⁠⁠ [https://www.notion.so/%E2%81%A0https://www.linkedin.com/in/annadahlstrom/%E2%81%A0]⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ * ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠UX Fika website⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ [https://www.uxfika.co/%E2%81%A0] * ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠UX Fika on Instagram⁠⁠⁠⁠ [https://www.instagram.com/uxfika%E2%81%A0] * ⁠UX Fika on LinkedIn⁠ [https://www.linkedin.com/company/ux-fika/] * ⁠The UX Fika Digest newsletter⁠ [https://us14.campaign-archive.com/home/?u=6b79a6151f2cfe7a4da36713d&id=686bdd5a0c] Here's a taster of what we offer: * ⁠Storyboarding Presentations & Deliverables course⁠ [https://learn.uxfika.co/products/courses/storyboarding-presentations-and-deliverables] * ⁠Storytelling For Effective Meetings & Presentations Course⁠ [https://learn.uxfika.co/products/courses/storytelling-for-effective-meetings-and-presentations] * ⁠5 x One-on-one Coaching Sessions⁠ [https://learn.uxfika.co/products/live_events/5-coaching-mentoring-sessions] * ⁠Membership to our community the Fika Room [https://www.uxfika.co/the-fika-room/]