Relational Resourcing Before Repair: The Missing Foundation of Systems Change, with John Kania

Relational Resourcing Before Repair: The Missing Foundation of Systems Change, with John Kania

Hosted by Kosha Joubert. Produced by J'aime Rothbard. John Kania joins Kosha Joubert to explore the evolving relationship between systems change and collective healing. Drawing on decades of experience in social innovation and collective impact, John reflects on how his work has shifted from focusing primarily on structures, institutions, and collaboration to recognizing the profound role that trauma, resilience, and healing play in shaping the systems we live within. Over the last 30 years, John has been a practitioner, researcher, writer, teacher, and speaker on how organizations and people can achieve change together. John is currently the Executive Director of the Collective Change Lab [https://www.collectivechangelab.org/], a nonprofit catalyst and thought leader placing healing at the heart of social and environmental systems change. In February 2024, John published a ground-breaking article [https://ssir.org/articles/entry/healing-trauma-systems] with Katherine Milligan and Laura Calderon de La Barca called Healing Systems which explored how recognising trauma in ourselves, other people, and the systems around us can open up new pathways to solving social problems. The article has been downloaded more than 80,000 times showing the huge amount of interest there is in how collective healing can unlock systems change – which is also the central question we're exploring at the Pocket Project. Laura Calderon de La Barca studied intensely with Thomas Hubl over several years and was an early guest on this podcast. [https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/the-collective-wound-of-colonialism-with-laura/id1813974942?i=1000711093472] Kosha and John explore why sustainable systems transformation cannot happen through policy and structural change alone. John shares how the Collective Change Lab has increasingly focused on creating the conditions for healing by beginning with resourcing, resilience, and reconnection. Rather than leading with conversations about trauma, he emphasizes the importance of helping individuals and communities reconnect to their own innate healing wisdom and capacity for relationship. Ultimately, John highlights that collective healing is both a personal and systemic process. Healing individuals and communities is essential, but so is transforming the conditions that continue to produce harm. This conversation offers a hopeful vision for how healing centered approaches can strengthen our ability to redesign systems, build resilience, and create lasting social change. It also highlights the growing alignment between the Collective Change Lab and The Pocket Project [https://pocketproject.org?utm_source=chatgpt.com], whose shared commitment to collective healing is helping shape a new paradigm for transformation. With its lively and fresh take on the nature of resilience, this conversation provides deep insights into a foundational element of collective healing work, and the vision underpinning the Pocket Project's global mission. It' s not too late to join us in the Resilience Program [https://pocketproject.org/resilience-program/] training. Follow this link to sign up for the self-study course of Phase I. Registration is open for Phase II of the training which starts in July. Further Resources: Collective Change Lab podcast: https://soundcloud.com/collective-change-lab [https://soundcloud.com/collective-change-lab] Recent podcast featuring John Kania: https://open.spotify.com/episode/4K3wihrIN1Fw97k4Rhrma2?si=jn9eEWpvTO-PNRhvTBP8Bg [https://open.spotify.com/episode/4K3wihrIN1Fw97k4Rhrma2?si=jn9eEWpvTO-PNRhvTBP8Bg] Healing Systems [https://ssir.org/articles/entry/healing-trauma-systems], article by John Kania, Laura Calderon de la Barca, and Katherine Milligan in Stanford Social Innovation Review. (This was a heavily downloaded article that explores intersection of collective healing and systems change). How Embodiment Transforms Systems Change [https://collectivechangelab.medium.com/how-embodiment-transforms-systems-change-9b71a04dd289], latest article from John Kania, Louise Marra, Laura Calderon de la Barca and Lian Zeitz. Pocket Project Resilience Program [https://pocketproject.org/resilience-program/] Pocket Project Resilience Circles [https://pocketproject.org/resilience-circles/] About John Kania John is a visionary social sector leader with a passion for inspiring and empowering others to create transformational change. Over the last 30 years he has been a practitioner, researcher, writer, teacher, and speaker on how organizations and people can achieve change together. John is currently the Executive Director of the Collective Change Lab, a nonprofit catalyst and thought leader placing healing at the heart of social and environmental systems change. Prior to founding the Collective Change Lab, John was an Executive-in-Residence at venture philanthropy New Profit, where he co-led the launch of a systems change practice. From 2001 to 2018, John built and ran FSG, a social sector consulting firm and think tank. As Board member and Global Managing Director at FSG, John focused on inspiring FSG's Leadership Team, consultants, and operations staff to achieve excellence in their work, leading strategic initiatives incorporating equity and systems thinking into FSG's culture and strategic perspective. John is a co-author of the ground-breaking Stanford Social Innovation Review articles "Collective Impact," (most read SSIR article ever) "The Dawn of System Leadership," and "The Relational Work of Systems Change." He is also co-author of "The Water of Systems Change," which is being used by practitioners around the world to bring clarity to how social change happens. John currently serves on the boards of Catalyst Now, Third Sector Capital Partners, and the Center for Action and Contemplation.

Thomas Hübl on Restoring Forward: How Cultivating Resilience Aligns Us With a More Flourishing Future

Hosted by Kosha Joubert. Produced by J'aime Rothbard. What is the true meaning of resilience? And how can cultivating our capacity to stay related to life's challenges help us align with a more authentic future? In this powerful episode, Pocket Project CEO Kosha Joubert and the teacher and facilitator Thomas Hübl. explore the essence of the kind of resilience work practiced in the Pocket Project's Global Trauma Relief Projects [https://pocketproject.org/global-trauma-relief-project/] and the next phase of the Resilience Program [https://pocketproject.org/resilience-program-phase-2/] training, which starts in July. Thomas explains how a burden of unprocessed trauma can weigh us down and keep us stuck — much like an overloaded boat marooned in a shallow river. Growing our resilience is like restoring the flow of water — helping us to start moving again despite what happened to us. The work of resilience-building is not, in that sense, a return to the past, but a form of post-traumatic growth that allows us to orient towards a more emergent future. "When we integrate the hardship, we are always moving forward. It looks like we are coming back to a more baseline state, but actually we are going to a new form of baseline that is more enriched and a bit wiser than the state before we got hurt," Thomas says. "We're not restoring backwards, we're restoring forwards." Kosha and Thomas also explore how trauma shows up in social systems — acting as "sand in the engine" that hinders collaboration and leads to miscommunication, polarisation and fragmentation. "And as long as we don't see this because it's unconscious, we are fighting all the time with the symptoms," Thomas says. "Collective and intergenerational trauma healing is to turn that into a conscious process, see what we are dealing with, and then from there develop methods and technologies to integrate it." With some concerned that collective healing practices could inadvertently serve to strengthen unjust systems by helping people adapt to oppressive circumstances, Thomas explains that the goal is to establish the level of social coherence and maturity needed to change systems "from the inside out." "That is where I think social justice work and collective trauma work, and maybe the spiritual and mystical work, need to come together to create the pathway to do that," Thomas says. "Healing-centered approaches are a way to pay back the mortgages that we took for thousands of years." With its lively and fresh take on the nature of resilience, this conversation provides deep insights into a foundational element of collective healing work, and the vision underpinning the Pocket Project's global mission. You are invited to join this global movement. [https://pocketproject.org/resilience-program/] This dialogue was recorded during a session in Part 1 of the Pocket Project's Resilience Program [https://pocketproject.org/resilience-program/] training that ran from May to June. Click here [https://pocketproject.org/resilience-program/] to learn more and register for Phase II of the training which starts in July, or to do the self-study course for Phase 1. Further Resources: Pocket Project Resilience Program [https://pocketproject.org/resilience-program/] Pocket Project Resilience Circles [https://pocketproject.org/resilience-circles/] Pocket Project Global Trauma Relief Projects [https://pocketproject.org/global-trauma-relief-project/] Thomas Hübl [https://thomashuebl.com/] About Thomas Hübl Thomas Hübl, PhD, is a renowned teacher, author, and international facilitator who works within the complexity of systems and cultural change, integrating the core insights of the great wisdom traditions and mysticism with the discoveries of science. Since the early 2000s, he has led large-scale events and courses on the healing of collective trauma. He is the author of Attuned: Practicing Interdependence to Heal Our Trauma—and Our World and Healing Collective Trauma: A Process for Integrating Our Intergenerational and Cultural Wounds. He has served as an advisor and guest faculty for universities and organizations, as a coach for CEOs and organizational leaders, and is currently a visiting scholar at the Wyss Institute at Harvard University. He is a co-founder of the Pocket Project.

Calling Men into Presence: Masculinity Beyond Separation and Struggle, with Kevin Young

Hosted by Matthew Green. Produced by J'aime Rothbard. What are the barriers standing between men and collective healing? And how can we establish more of the kind of spaces where men can move from confusion, suffering, pain and competition into deeper levels of presence, relatedness, reverence, and grace? In this episode, we welcome Kevin Young [https://compassionateinquiry.com/directory/kevin-young/], a life coach and meditation teacher based in County Down in Northern Ireland. A facilitator of the Compassionate Inquiry® approach developed by Dr Gabor Maté, Kevin is also a co-host of the Gifts of Trauma [https://open.spotify.com/show/5CDg9idkVyF0ssZ1MqAYMp?si=65b52e85e9f84cbb] podcast, which grew out of the Compassionate Inquiry community, and has just published a four-part series on masculinity. In just the past few months, the revelations in the Epstein Files, the misogynistic male influencers portrayed in the Inside the Manosphere [https://matthewgreenglobal.substack.com/p/responding-to-inside-the-manosphere] documentary, and a CNN exposé of the Motherless online platform where men swapped tips on how to sedate and assault their wives, have made made male abuses of power seemingly more visible than ever. Against this disturbing backdrop, Kevin and Matthew explore the nature of the suffering experienced by many men struggling to navigate changing cultural expectations, increasingly difficult economic conditions, and a sense of confusion over what it means to be a man in society today. Fresh from a two-week silent retreat in Arizona, Kevin speaks about the journey that led him to forms of spirituality starkly at odds with his upbringing in Northern Ireland – and how that journey has allowed him to bring the balm of lightness and humour to even the deepest wounds. Kevin and Matthew go on to address what it might look like to support young men to navigate the transition into healthy forms of manhood by providing both the role models and rites of passage that are so often lacking. "How might we work with fear? How might we work with shame? How might we work with how you've been conditioned to believe that you should be?" Kevin asks. "I think of compassion, and I think of love, and I think of forgiveness, and I think of reverence and grace — and collective healing can be in there too. For me, these are the fruits or the flowers on the tree of healing. And we can't force these fruits and flowers to bloom or to grow, but what we can do is tend to the tree." This conversation will inspire anyone interested in the question of what collective healing can mean for men, and how to cultivate new models of masculinity oriented towards protecting all that is sacred. Register for the July 1 Global Social Witnessing Call on Tending to Fractured Gender Relations, hosted by the Pocket Project. [https://pocketproject.org/global-social-witnessing/] Further Resources: Kevin Young [https://compassionateinquiry.com/directory/kevin-young/] Kevin Young (LinkedIn) [https://uk.linkedin.com/in/kevin-young-in-mynd] In-Mynd [https://www.in-mynd.com/about-inmynd] (Kevin's company) Gifts of Trauma [https://open.spotify.com/show/5CDg9idkVyF0ssZ1MqAYMp?si=65b52e85e9f84cbb] The Hakomi Way: Consciousness & Healing, the legacy of Ron Kurtz [https://hakomi.com/shop-hakomi-resources/the-hakomi-way-consciousness-healing/] Compassionate Inquiry®, Dr Gabor Maté [https://drgabormate.com/compassionate-inquiry/] Pocket Project Resilience Program [https://pocketproject.org/resilience-program/] The Resonant Man (Matthew Green) [https://www.theresonantman.com] About Kevin Young: Kevin is a truth seeker from Co. Down in Ireland. A Compassionate inquiry® facilitator, educator, steward, life coach, meditation teacher and sound bathing experience facilitator. He works privately with individuals and organizations around the globe, is passionate about people, healing, happiness and encouraging compassionate connection. A lover of music, poetry, conscious conversation and spiritual growth, Kevin's favorite word is 'awe'.

Building Architectures of Grace: How Contemporary Mysticism Can Help Us Lead in Chaotic Times, with Robin Alfred

Hosted by Matthew Green. Produced by J'aime Rothbard. What relevance do timeless mystical principles have for the way we work with groups of people today? And how can contemporary forms of "applied mysticism" help us rise to the challenge of these chaotic times? For 35 years, Robin Alfred has been facilitating transformational processes for groups ranging in size from six to 600 people and encompassing everyone from U.N. climate experts and nonprofit leaders to government officials and corporate executives. In his forthcoming book Emergent Leadership: Applied Mysticism for Complex Times, Robin distils the essence of what he has learned about applying mystical principles in these contexts and the breakthroughs this approach can unlock. In this episode, Matthew and Robin dive deeply into a question at the core of both Robin's book and this podcast: What does it take to establish the kind of coherent field that can change the destiny of individuals and organisations, foster innovation and genius, and help heal the individual, ancestral and collective trauma that traps us in repeating loops from the past? Robin explains how the phrase 'applied mysticism' came to him during a training he was running two years ago called The Art of Facilitating Transformational Fields, which explored how to tap into a higher organising principle to help guide what happens in a space. "Contemporary mysticism is a mysticism that is continually being revealed. It's not something that is fixed in time. It's not something that is thousands of years old. It has a contemporary updating aspect to it," Robin says. "And embodied mysticism also means that it's a mysticism that isn't just a philosophy, it's something that lives in the cells of my being." Robin shares his sense of the growing willingness of people working in many different kinds of organisations to embrace more soul-oriented approaches as the planetary crisis reveals the limits of business as usual – and the opportunities this opens up. "They know that there has to be another approach, that the existing approaches don't work," Robin says. "So the inner life of the leader is important. The collective fields are important. How do you create a healing field at work? That's important. Belonging is important. All these things become more and more important because people see that the traditional ways of approaching all this have led us into this huge dysfunction." Matthew and Robin also explore the role of presence, precision, intention and humility in working with organisations – and some of the most striking and challenging moments from Robin's long facilitation career. This conversation is a must-listen for anyone who wants to gain a deeper understanding of how mystical principles can be applied to support organisations to evolve – and hear more about how they can equip us to play a leadership role in the face of the world's escalating challenges. Robin's book Emergent Leadership: Applied Mysticism for Complex Times is published by Open Circle in August. Further Resources: Pocket Project Resilience Program [https://pocketproject.org/resilience-program/] Open Circle Consulting [https://www.opencircle.live/] Emergent Leadership [http://bit.ly/emergentleadership2025], Robin's training in applied mysticism The Art of Facilitating Transformational Fields [https://www.opencircle.live/blog/art-of-faciltating-transformational-fields] (Article by Robin for Mobius Strip) About Robin Alfred: Robin Alfred is an executive coach, facilitator, and organisational consultant with over 35 years of experience working globally with NGOs, top teams, SMEs and individuals. A former criminal justice social work manager in London, Robin later co-founded Open Circle Consulting [https://www.opencircle.live/], bridging inner and outer transformation. His trauma-informed, emergent approach integrates frameworks including Appreciative Inquiry, Process Work, and Archetypes at WorkTM . A Senior Student of Thomas Hübl, he supports international trainings on collective trauma and mysticism. Robin also serves on the Pocket Project's Trauma Consultancy Team and teaches "Emergent Leadership [https://bit.ly/LeaderAsMystic2025]," a training in applied mysticism.

Presencing America's Ugly Truths: Collective Healing in a Time of Collapse, with Hawah Kasat & Reggie Hubbard

Hosted by Matthew Green. Produced by J'aime Rothbard. How does the source code underlying centuries of global colonialism live on in our minds and bodies? And how can we transmute the legacy of this monumental collective trauma field into an authentic commitment to justice, restoration, and repair? In this episode, Hawah Kasat, host of Everlutionary [https://open.spotify.com/show/3D0UVQDg76F4S1iCWHS3iS?si=c3481d8c350e4da8], and Reggie Hubbard, founder of Active Peace Yoga [https://activepeaceyoga.com/], lay out a vision of collective healing informed by decades of community organising, racial healing work, social justice activism, and spiritual practice — and explore the role white-bodied people can play. As the United States descends into increasingly overt displays of authoritarianism, racism and bigotry, Hawah and Reggie say their country must confront the mindset that enabled past acts of enslavement, genocide and gender violence — and continues to orchestrate new forms of oppression in the here and now. "America's truths are ugly and we as a culture have not reckoned with the ugly," Reggie says. "And when you don't reckon with the ugly, you can't be surprised when the monster gets in your face." With Matthew Green co-facilitating a Pocket Project Integration Lab [https://pocketproject.org/integration-labs-2026/] exploring British colonialism with Manda Johnson (our guest on Episode One [https://open.spotify.com/episode/0GqxMFVxGxmhyTqfaIm9p3?si=0cba98b2afa4497f] of What Is Collective Healing?), Hawah and Reggie also share perspectives on the role descendants of colonisers can play in meeting this moment. While the process of confronting legacies of historical oppression can unearth buried layers of grief and shame, Hawah and Reggie see this work as essential to building authentic relationships with communities impacted by past colonial actions. "I think it's important that we can understand that we are not who our ancestors were," Hawah says. "And the only way to make sure that we never allow that to happen again is to acknowledge what our ancestors did…We have to trust each other with our hearts, with our grief. With our words, with our emotions." This episode opens a window into both the perils posed by a rising tide of authoritarianism and the necessity of exploring the unresolved collective and inter-generational trauma layers that are causing past patterns of domination, repression and exploitation to play on repeat. Lighting the way for anyone committed to transmuting these cycles, Hawah and Reggie show how we can retire the colonial operating system in favour of a paradigm rooted in our fundamental inter-dependence. "What does it mean to heal when there is so much dis-ease or disease that is rampant physically and emotionally and psycho-spiritually?" Hawah asks. "So collective healing to me is that experience of us understanding that we need to remember that healing is a universal goal and it involves all of us in joint action toward a desire for being whole." Further Resources: Hawah Kasat [https://hawahkasat.com/] (Official Website) Everlutionary: Healing and Transforming the World [https://open.spotify.com/show/3D0UVQDg76F4S1iCWHS3iS?si=c3481d8c350e4da8] (Hawah's podcast) Roots to Sky Sanctuary [https://rootstosky.net] (Hawah Kasat) Insight Timer [https://insighttimer.com/HawahKasat] (Hawah Kasat) Instagram [https://www.instagram.com/hawahkasat] (Hawah Kasat) Active Peace Yoga [https://activepeaceyoga.com/] (Reggie Hubbard) Pure Sound to Ground [https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLXufankCD4K486rMVXAwAKpQeN5XMPpYL] (Reggie Hubbard) Active Peace YouTube [https://youtube.com/@reggieglobal?si=tKuwzDDw9EiTQdRq] (Reggie Hubbard) The Power of A Purposeful Pause [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h1ERsv_39vE] (Reggie Hubbard) Pocket Project Integration Labs [https://pocketproject.org/integration-labs-2026/] Further Resources: Resilience Program [https://pocketproject.org/resilience-program/] About HawaH Kasat: Hawah Kasat is a celebrated global humanitarian, author, educator, non-profit leader, TEDx speaker, and yogi. He has over 25 years of experience training teachers around the globe and leading dynamic shamanic classes at conferences and festivals. Over the years, he has authored 4 books and produced 4 documentary films. In the year 2000, he co-founded One Common Unity (OCU), an award-winning non-profit organization that heals cycles of violence and trauma through social-emotional literacy, conflict transformation, mindfulness, mental health, and arts programming. During his time as Executive Director, OCU impacted over 40,000 youth and families in Washington, DC. Most recently, Hawah helped launch Roots to Sky Sanctuary [http://www.rootstosky.net/], a 125-acre regenerative farm and healing arts center situated in northern Appalachia, where he serves as a Managing Partner. About Reggie Hubbard: Reggie Hubbard is the founder/Chief Serving Officer of Active Peace LLC. He has done many things, but is most proud of being a caring human, a stroke survivor, teacher/wisdom steward, strategist, organizer, spiritual advisor, minister of sound and devoted seeker of truth, compassion, health, well-being and justice for all. Through Active Peace, he teaches all walks of life through wisdom, movement, meditation and sound, ways to cultivate well-being as a foundation rather than an afterthought.