Between Sessions: A Liminal Space for Therapists

Shame, Culture and the Therapist’s Inner World

Shame, Culture and the Therapist’s Inner World Shame is rarely just a feeling. It can live in the body, shape identity, distort responsibility, and quietly influence how therapists show up with clients. In this episode of Between Sessions, Ellen Yun and Dr Janet Penny explore shame through lived experience rather than clinical distance. Together, they reflect on how shame is shaped by culture, family, faith, immigration, professional identity and therapist training. Ellen shares from her experience of growing up within Chinese and British cultural contexts, where shame can be collective, relational and tied to family reputation, achievement and survival. Janet reflects on shame through a different lens, shaped by Christianity, duty, and growing up in a vicarage where being watched and representing more than yourself becomes part of the emotional atmosphere. We are also living in deeply polarised times, where public conversations can quickly become adversarial, people have less capacity for complexity, and there is often little room to move towards difficult but necessary dialogue. In that context, this episode offers listeners a flavour of what it can be like when two people, shaped by different cultures and racialisations, make space for a more open and reflective conversation. Ellen and Janet name where there is resonance between them, but also where there are real differences that make a difference. That matters, not only because it helps us understand one another more honestly, but because as therapists and as humans, we need spaces where difference does not automatically collapse into threat, defensiveness or silence. Together, they explore how shame can show up as heaviness, self-questioning, pleasing, freezing, defensiveness, over-responsibility and silence. They also reflect on what happens when therapists are given little space to be human, make mistakes, repair ruptures and stay present without collapsing into shame. This is a thoughtful conversation about what belongs to us, what does not, and what becomes possible when shame is named with honesty, curiosity and compassion. Go gently with this one. It may stir something tender. Timestamps 00:01 Welcome and why shame can be an activating topic 05:58 Cultural shame, family reputation and collective responsibility 11:32 Immigration, scarcity and intergenerational pressure 22:39 Shame in the body and learning what is not yours to carry 38:53 Therapist training, mistakes and the pressure to get it right 42:01 Rupture, repair and what helps shame soften 51:48 Closing reflections and questions for listeners Reflective questions for listeners 1. What did you notice in your body as shame was discussed, and what might that response be protecting? 2. Which messages about shame have you absorbed from your culture, family, faith background or professional training? 3. When shame is activated in you, what does it pull you towards: pleasing, over-explaining, freezing, hiding, defensiveness, withdrawal, or something else? 4. What are you carrying that is truly yours, and what might you have taken on that does not belong to you? 5. How might your own relationship with shame affect the way you respond to clients, mistakes, vulnerability and repair? Ellen can be found at: Counselling Directory: https://www.counselling-directory.org.uk/counsellors/ellen-yun [https://www.counselling-directory.org.uk/counsellors/ellen-yun] Janet can be found at: https://drjanetpenny.com/home/ [https://drjanetpenny.com/home/]

The 'Soup' We Swim In As Therapists

In this episode, Janet Penny and Ellen Yun explore the complex emotional, cultural, and political atmospheres that therapists navigate in their practice. They discuss the impact of societal narratives on personal experiences, the importance of reflexivity and relational safety in therapy, and the ongoing journey of learning and unlearning in the therapeutic relationship. The conversation highlights the significance of naming experiences, understanding power dynamics, and the role of vulnerability and shame in therapy. They conclude with reflective questions for listeners to consider in their own practice. Takeaways * The 'soup' we swim in includes emotional, cultural, and political atmospheres. * Therapists must navigate their own responses to societal narratives. * Powerlessness can lead to avoidance in both therapists and clients. * Reflexivity is crucial in understanding power dynamics in therapy. * Naming experiences can be liberating and empowering. * Racism and societal narratives impact the therapeutic relationship. * Relational safety is essential for effective therapy. * Informed consent should include transparency about the therapist's identity. * Vulnerability and shame are common in therapeutic settings. * The journey of learning and unlearning is ongoing for therapists. Keywords Therapy, emotional atmosphere, cultural narratives, power dynamics, relational safety, privilege, reflexivity, racism, vulnerability, informed consent. Chapters 00:00 Introduction to the Podcast and Its Purpose 06:01 Diverging Responses to the Current Climate 13:02 The Impact of Identity on Experience 19:58 The Normalization of Racism in Society 27:02 Finding Safe Spaces in a Polarized World 34:34 The Importance of Reflexivity in Practice 39:57 Unlearning and Relearning in Therapeutic Relationships 50:57 Navigating Differences in Therapy Reflective Questions 1. What did you notice in your body as you listened today? Any tightening, heat, numbness, fogginess, energy? What might that be signalling? 2. What’s in your “soup” right now? What are you breathing in socially, culturally, politically, relationally — locally or globally? 3. Do you notice cognitive narrowing in yourself? Any pull toward all-or-nothing thinking, certainty-seeking, or getting rid of ambiguity? 4. Do you notice yourself scanning for threat? Where does your system go on alert? What does that do to your capacity for nuance and connection? 5. Where has nuance been lost for you lately? In yourself, in your circles, in online spaces, in the therapy room? 6. What helps widen your window of tolerance/capacity? What helps you power down in your body and reconnect with yourself (internal resources, external supports, people, practices)? 7. How is “the soup” affecting equity and power in your practice? Where might you (alone, with peers, or in supervision) name what’s impacting you, and the differences between you, so you can be more present with clients? 8. Is there anything you feel you’re trying to protect? What do you notice about your responses (retreating, avoiding, performing, defending, appeasing, speaking out)? Is it protective in a helpful way—or something that needs more reflection?

Introduction: The Journey to Authenticity as Therapists & Humans

Join Ellen Yun and Dr. Janet Penny in this introduction episode as they explore identity, culture, and authenticity in a series of honest conversations. This episode invites listeners to reflect on their personal and professional journeys, encouraging courageous conversations and the creation of safe spaces for growth. Keywords Identity, culture, authenticity, therapy, personal growth, professional transformation, safe spaces, courageous conversations, race, faith Takeaways * Identity is a complex and multifaceted journey. * Culture shapes our experiences and perspectives. * Authenticity requires courage and vulnerability. * Safe spaces are essential for meaningful dialogue. * Race and faith intersect in powerful ways. * Therapists must navigate personal and professional identities. * Courageous conversations lead to growth and understanding. * Reflective practice enhances personal and professional development. * Intersectionality is key to understanding diverse experiences. * Creating courageous spaces fosters transformation. Chapters * 00:00:00 Welcome and Introductions * 00:05:00 Exploring Identity and Culture * 00:15:00 Navigating Race and Faith * 00:25:00 The Journey of Authenticity * 00:35:00 Creating Safe Spaces for Dialogue * 00:45:00 Closing Reflections and Invitations Reflective questions for this introduction episode: 1. What drew you here today? 2. What edges are alive for you right now? 3. What identities are present in your work — and what gets silenced? 4. What do you avoid talking about in supervision, and why? 5. Who could you begin to dialogue with — internally, and relationally? Read the previous articles Ellen and Janet wrote which has led to Between Sessions | A Liminal Space for Therapists podcast: https://linktr.ee/thebetweensessionspodcast [https://linktr.ee/thebetweensessionspodcast] Between Sessions Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/thebetweensessionspodcast Ellen can be found at: Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/forcyclebreakers/ [https://www.instagram.com/forcyclebreakers/] Counselling Directory: https://www.counselling-directory.org.uk/counsellors/ellen-yun [https://www.counselling-directory.org.uk/counsellors/ellen-yun] Janet can be found at: https://drjanetpenny.com/home/ [https://drjanetpenny.com/home/]

Between Sessions: A Liminal Space For Therapists Trailer

Welcome to Between Sessions: a Liminal Space for Therapists, where therapeutic Integrity begins within. This podcast is for therapists, but everyone is welcome on this reflective journey. This podcast is brought to you by Ellen Yun, an integrative psychotherapist specialising in Internal Family Systems (IFS) and Intimacy From The Inside Out (IFIO) models of psychotherapy, and Dr Janet Penny, a counselling psychologist and psychotherapist. We're also clinical supervisors, writers, and we identify as Christians. This isn't therapy or supervision but an invitation to pause for honest conversations as therapists and the humans behind the role. Each episode brings you into a spacious, reflective conversation between two therapists exploring the edges of their own awareness, moving towards difficult conversations, the stuck places, the internalised oppressions and the questions that rarely find airtime in the therapy room. Together, we linger in the in-between: the threshold where personal and professional selves meet, where discomfort becomes possibility, and where deeper ethical practice is born. At the end of each episode, we offer contemplative questions for your reflective journey.