DL Ep.32: Dopamine Isn’t Your Problem with Dr. Richard Davidson and Dr. Cortland Dahl
In this episode, Richie Davidson and Cortland Dahl unpack a very misunderstood molecule in popular culture: dopamine. Often blamed for craving, scrolling, distraction, and the endless loop of wanting more, dopamine is not something we can “detox” from or simply turn off. It is essential to motivation, aspiration, learning, and even the desire to practice meditation. Together, Richie and Cort explore what dopamine actually does in the brain, why wanting and liking are not the same thing, how novelty keeps us hooked, and how savoring may help us step out of compulsive loops and reorient toward what is genuinely nourishing. Enjoy!
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Podcast Chapter List
(00:00:00) – Dopamine is not something we can turn off
(00:03:46) – What is a neurotransmitter?
(00:06:04) – Dopamine as neurotransmitter and neuromodulator
(00:08:20) – Why the brain is too complex for simple chemical stories
(00:12:02) – The awe and mystery of the brain
(00:15:51) – Dopamine, motivation, and the myth of dopamine detox
(00:17:04) – Wanting vs. liking
(00:19:24) – Doom scrolling and the loop of seeking
(00:22:32) – Does dopamine explain why we keep scrolling?
(00:24:21) – Experiential fusion and mindless behavior
(00:25:42) – Why one molecule is never the whole story
(00:26:57) – Novelty and reward prediction error
(00:29:00) – The Easter egg example: seeking, finding, and disappointment
(00:30:23) – Dopamine in different brain circuits
(00:35:37) – What actually helps with compulsive loops?
(00:37:47) – Savoring as a way out of wanting
(00:39:24) – Meditation, breath, and the practice of savoring
(00:43:20) – Letting go of seeking
(00:43:56) – Gratitude, bodhicitta, and the sweetness of connection
(00:45:28) – Renunciation as reorientation
(00:48:00) – Closing
Related Topics From the Archives:
Written transcript for those who prefer to read
Lightly edited for clarity and readability.
Dopamine Is Not Something We Can Turn Off (00:00:00)
Richard Davidson:Dopamine is essential for human life.
Cortland Dahl:There’s no turning dopamine off.
Richard Davidson:No turning dopamine off. And anyone who thinks they’re going on a dopamine detox and really banishing their brain of dopamine, I hate to burst the bubble, but that would not be compatible with life.
Dopamine is essential in motivation, desire, seeking, and anything that is goal-directed. It has been described by the neuroscientist Kent Berridge [https://sites.lsa.umich.edu/berridge-lab/] as central to “wanting,” which he contrasts with something that it is often confused with: “liking.”
Many times, we like the things we want. But not all the time. Sometimes we get caught up in a wanting cycle that is not necessarily leading to liking.
But dopamine also plays an incredibly positive and important role. When I spring out of bed in the morning, go down to have my cup of tea, and have the strong aspiration to meditate, that is inevitably relying on the dopamine system too.
Welcome to Dharma Lab (00:01:45)
Cortland Dahl:Welcome everyone to another episode of Dharma Lab. I’m Cortland Dahl, and I’m here with my dear friend Richie, Dr. Richard Davidson, who, as I’m sure most of you know, is one of the most eminent neuroscientists on the planet.
We’re incredibly fortunate to have him in discussion yet again, and for a topic that he is especially well suited to talk about, which is dopamine.
I never thought dopamine would be a hook for a conversation like this, but it has taken on almost mythic status in popular culture. It has almost become the bad boy of the brain, like the amygdala, which is one brain region that always gets a bad rap and is associated with all sorts of negative things.
These days, of course, we hear a lot about dopamine. You might have heard of things like a dopamine detox, which makes it sound like dopamine is some toxic thing in the brain that we want to get rid of or shut off or have less of in some way.
So we thought we could get into the science of neurotransmitters generally, and then specifically dopamine. What does the science really say? What function does dopamine actually play, not only in our brains but in our ability to thrive and flourish?
Richie, maybe we can start by zooming way out. I’m guessing people have heard the word dopamine. Some may have geeked out a little and learned more or even tried something like a dopamine detox. Other people may have heard about serotonin or other neurotransmitters, but my guess is that people’s understanding is still a little fuzzy.
Could we start with the idea of a neurotransmitter, and then zoom in and look at dopamine specifically?
What Is a Neurotransmitter? (00:03:46)
Richard Davidson:Yes. Thank you so much. This is a juicy topic and very appropriate for Dharma Lab.
There is a constellation of molecules in the brain that play many different roles. One of those roles is what you mentioned: a neurotransmitter.
A neurotransmitter has a very specific role in mediating the interaction between two neurons. When one neuron fires, it sends an electric potential down the axon of that neuron. You can think of the axon as the wire extending from the cell body. The cell body is where the basic machinery is, and the axon extends from the neuron.
Those axons can be short, and they can also be very, very long. If I asked you right now to move the big toe in your right foot, all of you should be able to do that. That is actually a neuron that extends all the way from your brain to your big toe.
Cortland Dahl:That’s a single neuron? That’s cool. I didn’t know that.
Richard Davidson:Yes, it is a single neuron. Neurons have many different lengths.
At the end of the axon, there is machinery that releases a little packet of chemical. That packet binds to what is called a receptor on another neuron, and that initiates an electric change in the second neuron.
That is how communication works between two or more neurons. That is called a neurotransmitter.
Dopamine as Neurotransmitter and Neuromodulator (00:06:04)
There are also neurotransmitters and other molecules that act as neuromodulators. A neuromodulator is different from a neurotransmitter. Dopamine, which is the topic of our conversation today, can serve as both a neurotransmitter and a neuromodulator.
What is the difference?
A neuromodulator alters the threshold for the firing of a neuron. It is not directly involved in cell-to-cell communication in the same way. It is more like the molecular soup in which the neuron resides, and that changes the threshold for the firing of the subsequent neuron.
There are many molecules that serve as both neurotransmitters and neuromodulators, and dopamine is one of them.
I think most neuroscientists would agree that we have not yet discovered the full range of neuromodulators and neurotransmitters in the human brain. It is a vast number. In the popular press, we’ve heard about dopamine, serotonin, maybe norepinephrine, maybe GABA. But there are hundreds of these molecules playing complicated roles.
This is why, in general, it is extremely hazardous to pin a particular mental state on a single molecule. That is almost assuredly excessively simplistic and wrong.
To the best of our knowledge, there is no well-defined psychological state that can be pinned to one specific molecule. It is much more complex than that.
Why the Brain Is Too Complex for Simple Chemical Stories (00:08:20)
Cortland Dahl:Just as a footnote, I think it’s mind-boggling when you hear how complex our brains are. Could you say a little about the estimates of how many neurons there are, and then beyond that, the connections between neurons?
Now we’re talking about neurons communicating with each other. It’s an order of magnitude we can’t even comprehend.
Richard Davidson:The estimated number of neurons in the human brain is about 85 or 88 billion.
Cortland Dahl:That’s a “b,” everyone.
Richard Davidson:Yes, billion. And the estimated number of connections among those neurons is in the trillions.
Cortland Dahl:That’s in your head, everyone. Trillions of interconnections, and all these little communications, neuromodulators and neurotransmitters. The number of times that is happening right now, as you’re listening, is beyond what we can actually think about.
Richard Davidson:That’s very true. I often reflect on this as a humility induction, because it is so complicated and we really understand so little of it at this point in time.
If we pause to appreciate the complexity, and if we are honest with ourselves, it really is a humility induction.
It also exposes how gross our measures are. We’ve done a lot of research with EEG, including the first paper we published with long-term meditation practitioners. EEG involves putting electrodes on the scalp surface. We use it because it is non-invasive and has very fast time resolution.
But some people have likened EEG to taking a stethoscope, putting it on the hood of a car, and trying to understand how the car works by listening to the sounds from the stethoscope. That is what EEG is like.
Cortland Dahl:So by “gross,” you mean it is such a coarse level of analysis for something that is so incredibly nuanced, beyond what our minds can comprehend. At some point in history, we’ll look back and it will seem like the Stone Age, the way we look at the brain now.
Richard Davidson:Totally.
There is a whole class of research that goes on in animals, and there are serious ethical issues about this kind of research. That could be the subject of another Dharma Lab. We won’t talk about that right now.
Putting those ethical issues temporarily aside, those studies in animals are done because they use methods that cannot be used in humans. They are invasive methods that allow scientists to look at a much more granular level of analysis that cannot be examined with the methods we currently have in humans.
The Awe and Mystery of the Brain (00:12:02)
Cortland Dahl:This was not where we were expecting to go, but I think this could be another episode too: the mystery of the brain.
You might come to somebody like Richie and think you’re going to get sophisticated knowledge, and in many ways you will. But in another way, you get a sense that even the world’s leading experts are barely knocking on the door of this universe that is so awe-inspiringly complex and nuanced.
It’s almost like looking up into the night sky and feeling the majesty of this incredible universe, and realizing that this is literally happening between our ears. It’s awe-inducing when you open up to that.
Richard Davidson:It is. We are constantly forming new synapses, and even structural changes in the brain happen much more quickly than we ever thought they could.
One really interesting thing about the brain is that it has no receptors for feeling itself. When you touch your skin, you can feel that. If you put a vibrator on the skin, you would feel that. But if you opened the brain and put a little vibrator directly on the brain, you wouldn’t feel it.
There is probably an evolutionary reason for this. Our brains are active all the time. If we felt tingling every time our brains were active or new synapses were forming, it would disrupt our capacity to navigate everyday life. We wouldn’t be able to sleep. It would interfere with everything.
But I sometimes do a little practice where I envision all these changes occurring. It is majestic. It really is awe-inspiring. I’ve looked at enough images from studies that have taken samples of brain tissue, where you can see with an electron microscope at super-high resolution what we can’t see non-invasively. You see the extraordinary complexity and beauty that we simply do not have introspective access to.
Cortland Dahl:Yet another topic to put a pin in for a future episode: the mystery of the brain, and beyond that the mystery of consciousness.
But let’s zoom back in to neurotransmitters and neuromodulators. One way to think about this is that neurotransmitters are how neurons are talking to each other, and neuromodulators influence the level of activity between neurons.
Dopamine is interesting because it has become so meme-worthy. What do we actually know about dopamine and the functions it serves in the brain?
Dopamine, Motivation, and the Myth of Dopamine Detox (00:15:51)
Richard Davidson:Dopamine is essential for human life.
Cortland Dahl:There’s no turning dopamine off.
Richard Davidson:No turning dopamine off. Anyone who thinks they’re going on a dopamine detox and really banishing their brain of dopamine, I hate to burst the bubble, but that would not be compatible with life.
Dopamine is essential in what we can think of as motivation, desire, seeking, anything goal-directed where we have a plan. Even if it’s a pedestrian plan, like after this podcast we might go have dinner. It could be something as simple as that. There is an element of motivation involved in that, and it involves the dopamine systems in the brain.
Wanting vs. Liking (00:17:04)
Dopamine has been described by a very famous neuroscientist, Kent Berridge [https://sites.lsa.umich.edu/berridge-lab/] at the University of Michigan, who has made seminal contributions to our understanding of the dopamine system. He has labeled a key function of the dopamine system as “wanting,” and he contrasts that with something it is often confused with, which is “liking.”
Many times, we like the things we want. But not all the time.
For Dharma Lab viewers, who likely have some appreciation for how the mind works, I think we all have some insight into recognizing that sometimes we get caught up in a wanting cycle that is not necessarily leading to liking. It is a kind of perseverative loop of wanting.
This is part of the reason why there are popular stereotypes about dopamine.
But dopamine also plays an incredibly positive and important role. When I spring out of bed in the morning, go down to have my cup of tea, and then meditate, and have the strong aspiration to meditate, that is inevitably relying on the dopamine system too.
If dopamine were completely blunted, it would be very difficult to get out of bed and do anything. You can think of dopamine as part of an approach-oriented, energetic stance.
Anytime we have an aspiration to do something, that is going to rely, at least to some extent, on the dopamine system. So this is not a system we want to get rid of.
Doom Scrolling and the Loop of Seeking (00:19:24)
Cortland Dahl:Let me give you a real-world experience, and I’d love to ask how dopamine does or does not play a role in it.
I am very rarely on social media. It’s not something I spend much time on. But the other night I had an experience that a lot of people probably have all the time. Somebody forwarded me a link from one of these apps where you end up scrolling forever.
It was a video that made me laugh hysterically out loud. I was sitting by myself in a room, and if someone had looked in the window, they would have thought I was nuts.
It was a video where two friends were looking at themselves on the screen, and one had put on a filter that made it look like a bug was crawling across the other person’s face. So the person sees what looks like a spider on their face and starts slapping themselves. It was hilarious.
I watched that and was literally laughing hysterically. And the algorithms of these apps know when you watch the whole thing twice. So then it shows you more of the thing you clearly liked.
Then there was another one, and the next one was even funnier. It was wives playing a prank on their spouses, pretending to freak out like something was happening, just to see what the husband would do. And the husbands would start screaming and running around. Again, it was hilarious. I was laughing out loud.
But then I got into this loop where I was trying to find another one. It was so funny, and I had this little burst of joy. Then I literally wasted an hour of my time. After a few minutes I wasn’t laughing anymore. I was just scrolling mindlessly.
I wasn’t consciously thinking, “I have to find another funny video.” I was just in this inner loop, sucked into the endless scroll, until I finally thought, “I’ve got to go to bed.” Then I felt like, “What a waste of time.”
That first minute or two was actually funny. It was nice to laugh hysterically. And then it became a lot of mind-numbing scrolling that was utterly unsatisfying.
So let’s look at a moment like that from the perspective of what is going on in the brain, and specifically with dopamine. These are the moments where people demonize dopamine, as though that’s the thing that happened and we need to somehow extract it.
What would you say about that?
Does Dopamine Explain Why We Keep Scrolling? (00:22:32)
Richard Davidson:Those are interesting experiences that I think all of us have occasionally.
I would say dopamine likely plays some role, at least in the initial entry into that scrolling perseveration. Whether it is sustaining that over the whole period of time, I don’t know. It’s an interesting question.
Part of it depends on the extent to which you feel a real strong urge to do it. If someone took away your phone at that point, how would you react? There are ways of probing whether the wanting cycle is really dominant.
There could be other reasons why people scroll. One of my theories is that people engage in this kind of behavior in part to block the default mode, because the scrolling is consuming.
I’m curious about your phenomenological report of when you are scrolling. But I think that at least in the initial stages of scrolling, when people are really into it, there is what we would call experiential fusion.
Experiential Fusion and Mindless Behavior (00:24:21)
Cortland Dahl:For sure.
Richard Davidson:Their whole awareness is fused with the activity they’re engaged in. There’s not a lot of meta-awareness. They’re just sucked in.
Cortland Dahl:It’s almost like there’s no conscious doom scrolling, because if you were fully aware and conscious, you would just stop doing it.
I sometimes have the same experience drinking soda. You almost have to do it mindlessly, because if you really savor the taste, it’s actually kind of gross. I’ve noticed there are certain foods and certain things you consume that only work mindlessly.
Richard Davidson:But that’s not true of French fries.
Cortland Dahl:Richie, now you’re in sensitive territory. We’re not going to go there. I will concede soda. French fries, we’ll see. I’ll experiment with that.
But it’s true. Certain things only work mindlessly. When you consciously do them, you would not do them anymore because they don’t feel good. It’s interesting. It changes a lot.
Richard Davidson:Exactly. That is in part what sustains that kind of behavior as well. And I don’t think that is primarily a dopaminergic process.
Viewers may ask, “Okay, then what molecule is responsible for that?” And I would say, likely 500 molecules. Don’t even try to think about it that way. It’s not the right level of analysis.
Novelty and Reward Prediction Error (00:25:42)
Cortland Dahl:Going back to Berridge’s work, we have a whole episode on the distinction between liking and wanting, and there’s a great paper where he summarizes a lot of the research in this area.
If you look at the experience I was having, there was a moment of genuine liking. I was having fun. I was laughing hysterically. Then there was a moment of seeking. I was just looking.
There are all sorts of interesting things in the way algorithms work. There is something around duration. There is something around novelty. If you really pay attention, it’s not just that everything is the same. The algorithm gives you things that are different intentionally, and then you get something you like and it feels new again.
If you got the exact same thing 10 times in a row, even if you liked it at first, you would grow accustomed to it. It would lose the novelty factor. So there is something around duration, novelty, and emotion. There are all sorts of things mixed into it.
Richard Davidson:The novelty piece you’re mentioning is really important. It is a very important aspect of dopamine function that has been studied.
There is this idea of a reward prediction error, as it is called in the technical scientific lingo.
What is a reward prediction error?
In this case, you have a certain class of video that you’re looking at. You saw one, so you have a mental model of what these videos are like.
Cortland Dahl:So now that’s what I want. That’s the wanting. I’m looking for that.
Richard Davidson:Exactly. You’re looking for that.
Let’s say the next video you encounter is even more hysterical. That is a reward prediction error. You would actually see a larger dopamine spike than you saw previously.
If you saw a video that was comparable to what you just saw, there wouldn’t be any change in the dopamine signal. If you saw a video that was much less interesting and less compelling, there would be a decline, a decrement in dopamine.
Dopamine signaling is very dynamic and responsive to the information to which you are being exposed. It plays an important role in certain aspects of learning, and it informs your future seeking.
The Easter Egg Example: Seeking, Finding, and Disappointment (00:29:00)
Cortland Dahl:Let’s unpack that.
We just had Easter in the U.S., and I had this image of a little kid running around looking for an Easter egg. They have the model. They know what they want. They’re looking, they’re not finding, then they find something. Sometimes they find something beyond what they expected, maybe an extra big piece of candy or the basket with all the candy.
That seems like a good example because the seeking is very clear. The mental model is very clear. The not finding, and then the finding more, has all the dimensions you talked about.
But it’s interesting. You’re saying that when the kid is looking for the Easter egg and doesn’t find it, say they lift up the cushion of the couch and there’s nothing there, dopamine levels will actually drop in that moment?
Richard Davidson:Yes.
Cortland Dahl:Because if you forget about the neurotransmitters and just look at behavior, of course the seeking doesn’t stop. They immediately shift and think, “Where do I need to go next?”
So there’s something still driving the seeking. But if dopamine is dropping, and if dopamine is that motivational, goal-directed impulse in the brain, how does that work?
Dopamine in Different Brain Circuits (00:30:23)
Richard Davidson:Those are excellent questions. It’s an opportunity to speak about another piece of complexity: dopamine is found in a number of different parts of the brain. It’s not just in one isolated location.
Its function in different parts of the brain is different. It is the same molecule, but the location is different, the receptors are different, the connections are different, and the function is different.
The dopamine that is part of the wanting circuit is found primarily in an area of the brain called the ventral striatum, a subcortical area that is rich in dopamine.
We know that if there is brain damage to that area, based mostly on animal studies, animals will not seek in the ways we’ve been talking about. But it doesn’t affect their enjoyment of a reward.
Let’s say bananas are their favorite food. They can smell the banana. They know it’s six feet away. If they walk, they can get the banana. But they will not go and get it, even though they can smell it.
But if you put the banana in their mouth, they will enjoy it. Scientists know they enjoy it because they make certain sounds and facial expressions when they are enjoying it. If you video them, you can see it.
There are other molecules that seem much more associated with pleasure. The two major classes of molecules associated with pleasure in the brain are endogenous opiates and endogenous cannabinoids. Endocannabinoids are related to the active ingredient in marijuana, and they are found endogenously in the human brain. Those molecules are active in response to pleasure.
The reward prediction error signaling I was talking about is mediated in a different but adjacent part of the brain that is also rich in dopamine. The caudate nucleus is critically important for prediction error signaling. There is also prediction error signaling in other areas of the brain, including the prefrontal cortex.
So these dopamine-related functions occur in different areas of the brain.
Cortland Dahl:So going back to the Easter egg example, the child is looking for something, wanting something, and not finding it where they expect it to be. Is it in the caudate that the levels would drop, but in the ventral striatum they might still be high because the child is still seeking?
Richard Davidson:I’m not sure what would happen in that specific case. If the child is still seeking, you would expect dopamine levels to be high in the ventral striatum.
The prediction error changes we’re talking about are phasic changes. They are extremely short-lived, very dynamic, up and down. They are like an evoked potential, an electrical signal that goes down and then up very quickly.
These are changes that we cannot see in the human brain because we do not have methods to look at changes on that time course non-invasively.
What Actually Helps with Compulsive Loops? (00:35:37)
Cortland Dahl:Zooming out, with memes like dopamine detox, I think what people are trying to understand and intervene in are these cycles that are essentially unfulfilling but become almost compulsive behavior. Doom scrolling is maybe the classic example.
You’re doing something inherently unfulfilling, and yet you do it compulsively and for long periods of time.
One key takeaway is that this is likely much more complex than we normally think. Even with one chemical, one neurotransmitter or neuromodulator, it depends on which part of the brain you’re looking at, which network you’re looking at, and the time course from one moment to the next.
So you can’t just say, “That’s the thing we want to stop happening,” because it is way more complex than that.
But what could we say? In my mind, disentangling liking and wanting is one of the most helpful things for understanding how this is processed in the brain. What would you want people to know that could help them navigate some of these compulsive behaviors that we get stuck in?
Savoring as a Way Out of Wanting (00:37:47)
Richard Davidson:The knowledge we’re providing in this discussion can be helpful as background. But locking onto it in an excessively concrete way may not be that helpful.
Getting stuck in doom scrolling may involve dopamine initially, but it has to be much more complicated than that. It clearly involves other things too.
I think the distinction between wanting and liking is very important. Creating the causes and conditions that help us appreciate the liking, and really tune in to the events or stimuli associated with liking, can be enormously helpful.
Some psychologists have called this savoring. We can really savor these positive moments, and that can help us get unstuck from the loop of wanting.
The dopamine story is interesting, and at a very high level there is truth to the fact that dopamine is primarily associated with wanting and seeking. To the extent that this kind of behavior is causing problems, we can do our best to change it.
But one of the best ways to change it may be simply to focus more on liking.
Meditation, Breath, and the Practice of Savoring (00:39:24)
Cortland Dahl:That is such an important point, and it reminds me of key insights from meditation and my own practice.
Even with something like mindful breathing, which was the first practice I learned and one I still do, there are practices where the orientation is almost neutral. You step back and orient to awareness itself. You are not worrying so much about what is happening within the field of awareness. Whatever is happening is just a neutral phenomenon, and orienting to awareness itself is the focus.
But there is another kind of practice that is very different, and it is all about savoring.
You can practice breathing with awareness in many different ways. One way is where awareness is the main point and the breath is just a support or anchor. But another way is to breathe as a process of savoring. You really tune into the felt sense of the nourishing, even healing quality of the breath.
Because I’ve done both forms of practice, and a lot of the savoring aspect, even now as I do this I have goosebumps. I can feel this chemical reaction in my body. My whole body is feeling this just because the moment you remember it, it starts happening.
At the beginning, it uses the imagination. Then at a certain point, it elicits a visceral response. You feel this pleasant energy, and you immerse yourself in the healing energy of your own breath. It is there every moment.
That is different from stepping back and being aware. Both are helpful and profound, but they do different things.
The key is that you can do this with anything. Loving-kindness and compassion practices are like savoring connection. You first elicit the feeling of connectedness.
I can do this right now. We’re talking, and I can say, “This is Richie. I love Richie.” Immediately I feel that. I do love you. And then you can immerse yourself in that.
It is a skill to stay tuned in. It’s like finding the frequency. Habit energy pulls you off course, but you learn to keep it dialed in, and you can get good at it.
When you’re around the Dalai Lama, he is always in that frequency. He is never not in that frequency. You can feel it when you’re with him. He is radiating that because he is completely dialed into that frequency.
In a way, this quality of savoring is a skill you can learn and deploy in different ways. It could be eating an orange. It could be connecting with somebody else. It could be how you relate to your own breath.
There is no chasing in it. It is just tuning into something that is already there.
Letting Go of Seeking (00:43:20)
Richard Davidson:Exactly. I love that description. You don’t need to seek it because it’s right there.
You can let go of seeking completely and tune right into the delicious nectar that is always there.
Cortland Dahl:I feel like if people just knew this, it would change so much. There is so much chasing in our lives. Even meditation can become another place where we bring chasing energy and seeking energy, which almost never works out very well.
Maybe we can end here. Are there any practical things from your own practice that help you stay with the savoring side of things, and notice the pull toward chasing and seeking?
Gratitude, Bodhicitta, and the Sweetness of Connection (00:43:56)
Richard Davidson:For me, appreciation and gratitude are really important.
Also, the kind of practice that you and I do before each Dharma Lab episode, bodhicitta practice, is very important. Reflecting on how our actions can be of benefit to others has a sweetness associated with it.
Really leaning in and connecting to that sweet quality of connection is heart-opening for me. It naturally allows the wanting piece to subside on its own.
There is not an active pushing down of wanting. It is more about leaning into and connecting with this sweetness.
If you do find that wanting is rearing its head, then to use a strategy we’ve been taught by Mingyur Rinpoche, you can become aware of it. Really just be aware of your wanting. If you stay aware of it and do not get totally sucked into it, it will subside on its own.
Renunciation as Reorientation (00:45:28)
Cortland Dahl:That’s beautiful. There are some helpful things here, especially if we zoom out to the detox idea.
A lot of the meme around dopamine detox is almost an abstinence mentality. You just need to stop all stimulation, anything that is creating problems. It can feel like a retreat-from-the-world mentality.
This reminds me of one of the most misunderstood words in Buddhist psychology and meditation practice. There is a Tibetan term, ngé jung, which we often translate as renunciation. But renunciation conjures up exactly the detox mentality, as though it is all about letting go, distancing yourself from the bad stuff or the things that create problems.
But what that term really means, and what I think is a more accurate and helpful translation, is reorientation.
It is more about what you are turning toward than what you are letting go of or turning away from. If you forget that, it is not sustainable. It is depleting. You have nothing bringing you joy or motivating you. You have taken something away, but there is nothing there to sustain you.
This is about orienting toward something nourishing, fulfilling, and wholesome. Then the letting go becomes natural, because you are tasting an alternative that is obviously superior to the thing you let go of.
Doom scrolling versus connecting with a friend, or savoring something meaningful. Of course that feels better. You have that contrast in your mind, rather than just saying, “I’m going to let go of that,” and then what?
So maybe it is not just about letting go of endless wanting and craving. It is perhaps even more about what you like, what you savor, and what you find fulfilling.
It feels like you are giving the brain analysis of that.
Richard Davidson:That’s beautiful.
Closing (00:48:00)
Cortland Dahl:We could clearly talk a lot more about this. It feels like we just scratched the surface. We introduced a whole cast of characters with other neurotransmitters and other things, so maybe we can do more of this in future episodes.
As always, thank you so much, Richie. I learned a lot. This is super interesting, and I’m sure everybody came away with something helpful in their lives.
Thank you for everything you shared.
Richard Davidson:Thank you. Wonderful to be here.
Cortland Dahl:Stay tuned. I’m sure we’ll have many more conversations like this. If you’re still with us, thank you for watching, and we’ll see you again soon. Take care.
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