Hoodwinked with Dr. Mara Einstein

Getting Out: Cult Recovery, Religious Trauma, and How to Help Someone Leave

When it comes to cults–from MLM to MAGA–the question everyone wants answered is: how do I get my loved one out? In this episode, Dr. Mara Einstein tackles that question with Dr. Tanya Johnson, a therapist specializing in religious trauma, cult recovery, and high-control groups. She explains the cult recovery process while providing insights from her experience growing up Mormon. In this episode, you’ll hear: * Dr. Johnson’s personal background growing up in the Mormon church in Salt Lake City and what “normal” looks like when the belief system is the culture. * How doubt begins: the strain of “mental gymnastics,” and what it feels like to allow the thought “what if it isn’t true?” * The “shelf break” metaphor—the point where accumulated contradictions collapse, and belief can’t be forced back into place. * Belief isn’t purely a choice—and why high-control systems can be especially brittle when core truth-claims fail. * The more a group demands obedience to an external authority over your own judgment, the more “high-control” it is. * The aftermath: grief, anger, disorientation, community loss—and why leaving can feel like a death and a divorce at the same time. How cults and high-control groups work (and how to recognize them): * Dr. Johnson references frameworks like Steven Hassan’s BITE Model, but also offers her own practical lens: “location of authority”, who has the final say in your life—you, or an external authority you’re expected to obey? If you’re trying to help someone who’s still inside: * Why arguing facts often fails (closed-loop logic, thought-stopping clichés, fear, exhaustion). * What works better: staying connected, asking calm questions, and keeping the relationship intact so there’s somewhere safe to land when the shelf finally breaks. * Why vulnerability—not intelligence—is the real risk factor. There is no category of “people who could never fall for this.” For therapists and clinicians: * This work requires specific training, because clients from high-control environments may instinctively transfer authority to the therapist, making it essential to keep handing power back. Transcript: https://static1.squarespace.com/static/6356d82640973e1b507b0d53/t/6981db95b11b345ec4a7d8e0/1770118037527/Ep8_Transcript_HoodwinkedWithDrMaraEinstein.pdf About the guest Dr. Tanya Johnson is a licensed mental health counselor, clinical supervisor, and professor with specializations in religious trauma and cult recovery, neurodivergence, and cross-cultural communication. As a Cuban-American, queer, neurodivergent ex-Mormon, Dr. Tanya blends personal insight and over 15 years of clinical experience to her work. She supports clients through her private practice, Evolve Counseling Center, mentors early-career therapists in her membership community, Colorful Minds Collective, and teaches counseling students as an adjunct professor at Antioch University. Based in Miami, Florida, Dr. Tanya is licensed in both Florida and Washington State. She holds a BS in Psychology from the University of Utah, an MA in Counseling from Liberty University, and a PhD in Counseling with a specialization in Marital and Family Therapy from Barry University. Counseling: www.evolvecounselingcenter.com [http://www.evolvecounselingcenter.com]  Colorful Minds Collective: www.colorfulmindscollective.com [http://www.colorfulmindscollective.com]  About the host Dr. Mara Einstein spent a decade in corporate marketing working for some of the world’s biggest brands before turning her focus to exposing the industry’s inner workings. Now a tenured professor of media studies at CUNY, she’s dedicated to helping people understand how marketing shapes what we buy, what we believe, and even who we think we are. With a background spanning business, media, and the arts, Dr. Einstein brings sharp insight and humor to the systems that sell us our identities—and the power we have to push back. Pick up Dr. Einstein’s book Hoodwinked: How Marketers Use the Same Tactics as Cults on Bookshop.org (and beyond): https://bookshop.org/a/116018/9781493086153 [https://bookshop.org/a/116018/9781493086153] Website: https://www.drmaraeinstein.com  Books: https://www.drmaraeinstein.com/writing  Instagram, TikTok, Threads: @drmaraeinstein YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/@Drmaraeinstein    Credits Production: Multitude [http://google.com/search?q=multitude+podcasts&oq=multitude+podcast&gs_lcrp=EgZjaHJvbWUqCQgAEEUYOxiABDIJCAAQRRg7GIAEMgYIARBFGDsyCAgCEAAYFhgeMggIAxAAGBYYHjIICAQQABgWGB4yDQgFEAAYhgMYgAQYigUyDQgGEAAYhgMYgAQYigUyBggHEEUYPdIBCDE3MjhqMGo3qAIAsAIA&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8] Lead Producer & Editor: Bren Frederick Music: Marc Langer Cover art: Cayla Einstein See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy [https://art19.com/privacy] and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info [https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info].

Influencers, Algorithms, and the Business of Belief

What happens to democracy, trust, and shared reality when influence is driven by engagement rather than truth—and belief itself becomes a business model? In Episode 7, Dr. Mara Einstein sits down with two other experts to examine how digital influence actually works today—and why it has become one of the most powerful belief-shaping systems of our time. In Part 1, Dr. Mara is joined by Sam Ogborn, a marketing strategist and content creator who understands platforms from the inside. Sam explains how influencer culture really functions behind the scenes: why follower counts no longer matter, how creators are incentivized to keep producing regardless of pay, and how platforms quietly shift risk onto unpaid labor. Together, they unpack the myths of authenticity, the rise of stealth brand partnerships, and why “values-driven” branding often collapses when tested. So when brands and platforms begin to replace social institutions, what obligations do they actually have—and what happens when there’s no accountability? In Part 2, Dr. Mara speaks with Imran Ahmed, founder and CEO of the Center for Countering Digital Hate. Ahmed traces how misinformation, disinformation, and conspiracy theories spread—not because they’re fringe, but because they’re profitable. He explains how algorithms reward outrage, how influencers act as the retail layer of extremist ecosystems, and why young people are now among the most conspiratorial demographics. They also discuss why platforms resist transparency, how Section 230 shields tech companies from accountability, and why generative AI threatens to push disinformation into a new phase—where lies can be generated, tested, and optimized at scale. Transcript: https://static1.squarespace.com/static/6356d82640973e1b507b0d53/t/69701683d66c2c128b4013ec/1768953475833/Ep7_Transcript_HoodwinkedWithDrMaraEinstein+%281%29.pdf [https://static1.squarespace.com/static/6356d82640973e1b507b0d53/t/69701683d66c2c128b4013ec/1768953475833/Ep7_Transcript_HoodwinkedWithDrMaraEinstein+%281%29.pdf] About the guest — Sam Ogborn Marketing strategist Sam Ogborn has transformed her corporate experience at Red Bull and Synchrony into a multifaceted career spanning CMO advisory work, content creation, and academia. With 150,000+ followers drawn to her big-picture marketing insights, she's built a professional path that balances strategic consulting, online media, and teaching. Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/samogborn/?hl=en [https://www.instagram.com/samogborn/?hl=en]  Tiktok: https://www.tiktok.com/@samogbornn [https://www.tiktok.com/@samogbornn]  About the guest — Imran Ahmed Imran Ahmed is the founding CEO of the Center for Countering Digital Hate. He is a recognized authority on the social and psychological dynamics of social media, as well as what goes wrong in those spaces, such as trolling, identity-based hate, misinformation, conspiracy theories, modern extremism, and fake news. He regularly features in the media as an expert in online malignant behaviour and how bad actors use digital spaces to harm others and benefit themselves. Imran is a trustee of the UK charity, Victim Support. He advises politicians in the US, UK, Europe, and elsewhere on policy and legislation. Imran was raised in Manchester, England. He holds an MA in Social and Political Sciences from the University of Cambridge. Imran lives in Washington, DC. Website: https://protectingkidsonline.org/ [https://protectingkidsonline.org/]  About the host Dr. Mara Einstein spent a decade in corporate marketing working for some of the world’s biggest brands before turning her focus to exposing the industry’s inner workings. Now a tenured professor of media studies at CUNY, she’s dedicated to helping people understand how marketing shapes what we buy, what we believe, and even who we think we are. With a background spanning business, media, and the arts, Dr. Einstein brings sharp insight and humor to the systems that sell us our identities—and the power we have to push back. Pick up Dr. Einstein’s book Hoodwinked: How Marketers Use the Same Tactics as Cults on Bookshop.org (and beyond): https://bookshop.org/a/116018/9781493086153 [https://bookshop.org/a/116018/9781493086153] Website: https://www.drmaraeinstein.com  Books: https://www.drmaraeinstein.com/writing  Instagram, TikTok, Threads: @drmaraeinstein YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/@Drmaraeinstein    Credits Production: Multitude [http://google.com/search?q=multitude+podcasts&oq=multitude+podcast&gs_lcrp=EgZjaHJvbWUqCQgAEEUYOxiABDIJCAAQRRg7GIAEMgYIARBFGDsyCAgCEAAYFhgeMggIAxAAGBYYHjIICAQQABgWGB4yDQgFEAAYhgMYgAQYigUyDQgGEAAYhgMYgAQYigUyBggHEEUYPdIBCDE3MjhqMGo3qAIAsAIA&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8] Lead Producer & Editor: Bren Frederick Music: Marc Langer Cover art: Cayla Einstein See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy [https://art19.com/privacy] and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info [https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info].

Digital media changed the game

Digital technologies have been fundamental to the proliferation and perpetuation of cults of all kinds. Joining Dr. Mara Einstein for an examination of belief, power, and persuasion are two very special guests: one a theologian and the other an internet scholar. Together they make the case that we are not just living with technology—we are living inside its belief systems. And without conscious resistance, reform, and real-world community, those systems will continue to define reality for us.  In Part 1, Dr. Mara speaks with Greg Epstein, humanist chaplain at Harvard and author of Tech Agnostic. From founders as prophets to platforms as congregations, tech didn’t just borrow religious metaphors—it replaced religion for many people, without the safeguards, humility, or reform movements that traditional religions developed over time. But if tech behaves like a religion, does it also behave like a cult? Together, Dr. Mara and Greg unpack charismatic leaders, apocalyptic thinking around AI, the myth of “doing good,” and why some of the most powerful people in tech may sincerely believe they’re saving the world—while making democracy, equality, and community harder to sustain. In Part 2, Dr. Mara is joined by Jamie Cohen, a media scholar who studies digital culture, from surveillance capitalism to online radicalization. Algorithms, advertising infrastructure, data extraction, and prediction systems don’t just sell products—they sort people into belief systems. Micro-targeted ads, grievance-based online movements, incel and extremist ecosystems, and how algorithms reward identity silos, free labor, and radicalization all connect directly to cult dynamics: closed information loops, in-group language, moral certainty, and the increasing difficulty of exit. Mentioned in this episode: Books * Tech Agnostic — Greg Epstein * Good Without God — Greg Epstein * Hoodwinked — Dr. Mara Einstein * Life 3.0 — Max Tegmark * The Drama of the Gifted Child — Alice Miller * About the guest — Greg Epstein Greg M. Epstein serves as Humanist Chaplain at Harvard & MIT, where he advises students, faculty, and staff members on ethical and existential concerns from a humanist perspective. He was TechCrunch's first “ethicist in residence” and has been called “a symbol of the transition in how Americans relate to organized religion” (The Conversation). He is the author of the New York Times-bestselling book Good Without God and has also written for MIT Technology Review, CNN.com, The Boston Globe, The Washington Post, and Newsweek. His most recent book is Tech Agnostic: How Technology Became the World's Most Powerful Religion, and Why It Desperately Needs a Reformation. About the guest — Jamie Cohen Jamie Cohen is an associate professor of Media Studies at CUNY Queens College. He is also a Salzburg Academy on Media and Global Change faculty fellow. Jamie is a digital culture expert, and his work focuses on internet literacies, memes, and visual media. His current project is Angry Boys Among Us: How the Manosphere Became Culture, and What We Can Do About It, an exploration of the manufactured manosphere created by an interconnected network of online men’s influencers and entertainers who subsist and profit by exploiting vulnerable young men’s fears and anxieties. About the host Dr. Mara Einstein spent a decade in corporate marketing working for some of the world’s biggest brands before turning her focus to exposing the industry’s inner workings. Now a tenured professor of media studies at CUNY, she’s dedicated to helping people understand how marketing shapes what we buy, what we believe, and even who we think we are. With a background spanning business, media, and the arts, Dr. Einstein brings sharp insight and humor to the systems that sell us our identities—and the power we have to push back. Pick up Dr. Einstein’s book Hoodwinked: How Marketers Use the Same Tactics as Cults on Bookshop.org (and beyond): https://bookshop.org/a/116018/9781493086153 [https://bookshop.org/a/116018/9781493086153] Website: https://www.drmaraeinstein.com  Books: https://www.drmaraeinstein.com/writing  Instagram, TikTok, Threads: @drmaraeinstein YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/@Drmaraeinstein    Credits Production: Multitude [http://google.com/search?q=multitude+podcasts&oq=multitude+podcast&gs_lcrp=EgZjaHJvbWUqCQgAEEUYOxiABDIJCAAQRRg7GIAEMgYIARBFGDsyCAgCEAAYFhgeMggIAxAAGBYYHjIICAQQABgWGB4yDQgFEAAYhgMYgAQYigUyDQgGEAAYhgMYgAQYigUyBggHEEUYPdIBCDE3MjhqMGo3qAIAsAIA&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8] Lead Producer & Editor: Bren Frederick Music: Marc Langer Cover art: Cayla Einstein  See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy [https://art19.com/privacy] and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info [https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info].

The ultimate commercial cult

In this episode, Dr. Mara Einstein is joined by Julie Anderson, one of the most influential voices in the anti-MLM movement, for a deeply personal and unflinching conversation about life inside multi-level marketing—and the long road out. Julie walks through how she was pulled into MONAT through a product that initially worked, how she was systematically funneled from customer to seller to recruiter, and how incentive structures, love-bombing, personal development ideology, and coercive “coaching” kept her locked in for nearly five years. What begins as “just shampoo” turns into unpaid labor, psychological manipulation, and moral injury—mirroring the dynamics of high-control groups and cults. Together, Dr. Mara and Julie unpack why MLMs disproportionately target women, why governments continue to legitimize these structures, and how shame keeps people trapped. But, in a twist the industry didn’t see coming, social media has steadily begun to crack the system open. Julie also explains how she transformed the very marketing skills she learned inside MLMs into a powerful force for exposing them—online and offline. Full shownotes and transcript: https://www.drmaraeinstein.com/podcast/commercial-mlm-cults [https://www.drmaraeinstein.com/podcast/commercial-mlm-cults] In this episode: * Why Julie calls MLMs “endless chain recruitment fraud,” not businesses * How incentive periods, bonuses, and rank structures hook people early * Why over 99% of participants must lose money for MLMs to function * The personal-development trap—and how coercion is disguised as motivation * How MLM coaching programs replicate cult dynamics * The psychological toll of realizing you’ve harmed people you recruited * The long exit: overcoming shame, cognitive dissonance, moral injury, and the slow lift of the “veil” * How TikTok and social media accelerated the collapse of MLM narratives * Practical advice for people who feel ready to get out Mentioned in this episode: Documentaries & Media * LuLaRich – Amazon Prime * The Vow – HBO (NXIVM) Organizations & Institutions * Federal Trade Commission (FTC) * Direct Selling Association (DSA) * Direct Selling Education Foundation (DSEF) * Competition Bureau of Canada Books & Podcasts * Hoodwinked: How Marketers Use the Same Tactics as Cults – Dr. Mara Einstein * Merchants of Deception – Eric Scheibeler * Life After MLM – Roberta Blevins About the guest Julie Anderson was simultaneously in a multi-level marketing company and an MLM-adjacent coaching cult for five years. Upon exiting both, she took to social media, spreading awareness about the reality of MLMs and focusing on amplifying the voices of victims/survivors. Find Julie on Youtube: https://www.youtube.com/@JulieAndersonvideos [https://www.youtube.com/@JulieAndersonvideos]  And Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/_julieanderson426/ [https://www.instagram.com/_julieanderson426/]  About the host Dr. Mara Einstein spent a decade in corporate marketing working for some of the world’s biggest brands before turning her focus to exposing the industry’s inner workings. Now a tenured professor of media studies at CUNY, she’s dedicated to helping people understand how marketing shapes what we buy, what we believe, and even who we think we are. With a background spanning business, media, and the arts, Dr. Einstein brings sharp insight and humor to the systems that sell us our identities—and the power we have to push back. Pick up Dr. Einstein’s book Hoodwinked: How Marketers Use the Same Tactics as Cults on Bookshop.org (and beyond): https://bookshop.org/a/116018/9781493086153 [https://bookshop.org/a/116018/9781493086153] Website: https://www.drmaraeinstein.com  Books: https://www.drmaraeinstein.com/writing  Instagram, TikTok, Threads: @drmaraeinstein YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/@Drmaraeinstein    Credits Production: Multitude [http://google.com/search?q=multitude+podcasts&oq=multitude+podcast&gs_lcrp=EgZjaHJvbWUqCQgAEEUYOxiABDIJCAAQRRg7GIAEMgYIARBFGDsyCAgCEAAYFhgeMggIAxAAGBYYHjIICAQQABgWGB4yDQgFEAAYhgMYgAQYigUyDQgGEAAYhgMYgAQYigUyBggHEEUYPdIBCDE3MjhqMGo3qAIAsAIA&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8] Lead Producer & Editor: Bren Frederick Music: Marc Langer Cover art: Cayla Einstein See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy [https://art19.com/privacy] and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info [https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info].

What are brand cults?

In this episode, Dr. Mara Einstein sits down with Chris Kneeland, co-founder of Cult Collective and The Gathering, and anthropologist Ali Demos of StrawberryFrog, to unpack the surprising overlap between cult psychology, brand loyalty, and modern movement-making. Together, they explore why brands like Apple, LEGO, Costco, REI, Harley-Davidson, YETI, and even gas stations inspire devotion that looks a lot less like shopping and a lot more like belonging. They also break down how movements like Opt Outside or Money Like a Woman emerge from cultural undercurrents—and why some brands earn genuine trust while others fall into the trap of purpose-washing – claiming a cause they aren’t committed to – ultimately leading to boycotts and consumer distrust. This conversation pulls back the curtain on the mechanics of brand cults: rites and rituals, villains and fights, co-creation, identity shaping, the erosion of traditional institutions, and the human desire to affiliate with something bigger than ourselves. It’s a candid look at how these forces shape consumer behavior—and why personal meaning-making has become fully embedded in the consumer marketplace. In this episode: * Why “cult brand” doesn’t always mean niche—and how Barbie, the NFL, LEGO, and Porsche ended up in The Gathering’s Brand Hall of Fame * The difference between a brand cult (top-down, ritual-driven) and a brand movement (bottom-up, co-created, culturally activated) * How brands use rites, rituals, insider language, and “picking a fight” to build irrational loyalty * Why some brands (Lush, Patagonia, CVS) take real risks that prove purpose isn’t just a tagline * The anthropology of cult / culture / cultivate, and why brands have become identity engines as religion and long-term employment decline * Why Costco shouldn’t work on paper—and why it’s one of the strongest cult brands in America * Why even gas stations or utilities can build cult-like devotion  Mentioned in this episode: Books & Frameworks * The Power of Cult Branding – Matthew W. Ragas & Bolivar J. Bueno * The Culting of Brands – Douglas Atkin * Behavioral economics research (Ariely, irrational decision-making) * Millward Brown research on category-normative marketing Brands, Campaigns & Movements * The Gathering / Brand Hall of Fame * REI – Opt Outside * Four Leaf Credit Union – Money Like a Woman * Northwell Health – Raise Health / It Doesn’t Kill to Ask * Lush Cosmetics (activist retail actions) * Patagonia, Ben & Jerry’s, Apple, LEGO, Jeep, Vans * S’well (anti–single use plastic) * Snickers – “You’re not you when you’re hungry” * Southwest Airlines democratizing travel * Wawa, Buc-ee’s, TikTok creator community * Spike ball Scholars, Thinkers, and Public Figures   * Douglas Atkin – former Airbnb global head of community and author of The Culting of Brands, whose work bridges social-movement organizing and brand communities * Matthew W. Ragas & Bolivar J. Bueno – authors of The Power of Cult Branding, foundational research in identifying attributes of cult-like brand loyalty * Daniel Ariely – behavioral economist known for work on irrational decision-making and why consumers don’t behave according to classical economic logic * Muniz & O’Guinn – marketing scholars who established the academic framework for understanding brand communities * Jane Goodall – referenced metaphorically by Chris Neelan for her observational approach, illustrating how brand leaders’ behavior can be studied as a form of social anthropology * Frances Haugen – relevant to the broader conversation about platform design, vulnerability, and algorithmic influence * Caitlin Clark – cultural reference point for the rise of women's economic and cultural influence, relevant to the “Money Like a Woman” movement * Taylor Swift – referenced as an example of cultural energy and economic force shaping movement opportunities * Steve Jobs & Tim Cook – examples of leadership transitions within cult brands, and how cult status persists (or doesn’t) beyond charismatic leadership * Jeff Bezos – noted as one of the few brand leaders placed on a quasi-mythic pedestal * Adam Neumann – invoked indirectly via comparisons to brand-movement failures and cultural overreach (WeWork as a “movement” turned cautionary tale) About the guest — Ali Demos Ali Demos is Group Strategy Director at Strawberry Frog and leads brand planning on Northwell Health, FourLeaf Federal Credit Union, and several other clients. Trained as a cultural anthropologist, Ali leads a video ethnography practice within the strategy department and has made ethnographic films for many global brands, including IKEA, IBM, American Express, Starbucks, Dove, UPS, and DuPont. Ali has also been a hands-on, streetwise cultural researcher. She trained at the Citizen’s Police Academy in New York City for dissertation research on masculinity and law enforcement; explored the “Bollywood” phenomenon and the cult of Hindi movie stars while traveling in India; and wrote a thesis about the paradoxes of gender identity in the highly secretive community of Boston-area cross dressers. She holds an M.A. in Cultural Anthropology from Princeton, and a B.A. in Social Anthropology from Harvard. Learn more about her work on LinkedIn https://www.linkedin.com/public-profile/settings?trk=d_flagship3_profile_self_view_public_profile [https://www.linkedin.com/public-profile/settings?trk=d_flagship3_profile_self_view_public_profile]  About the guest — Chris Kneeland Chris Kneeland is the cofounder of Cult Collective (www.cultideas.com), a marketing advisory firm headquartered in Calgary, Alberta. He also cofounded The Gathering (www.cultgathering.com), a Forbes top-rated business conference, held annually in Banff, AB.  Chris also chairs the Selection Committee for North America’s Brand Hall of Fame. Chris is currently serving as the fractional CMO of Spikeball.  Chris specializes in delivering profitable growth through the smarter deployment of discretionary resources, improving elements of the customer journey that matter most, and increasing internal and external engagement via the application of eight proven ‘cult brand’ principles. Chris has worked with some of North America’s most beloved brands, including Harley Davidson, Best Buy, H-E-B, The Home Depot, Canadian Tire, GoDaddy, Keurig, and John Deere. He has helped launch over a dozen start-ups, and currently serves as a Fractional CMO for Spikeball. Chris has written two books on Branding (“Fix, A New Prescription for Customer Engagement” and “What’s Truly Possible”), and is a frequent speaker at marketing conferences and industry events across North America. About the host Dr. Mara Einstein spent a decade in corporate marketing working for some of the world’s biggest brands before turning her focus to exposing the industry’s inner workings. Now a tenured professor of media studies at CUNY, she’s dedicated to helping people understand how marketing shapes what we buy, what we believe, and even who we think we are. With a background spanning business, media, and the arts, Dr. Einstein brings sharp insight and humor to the systems that sell us our identities—and the power we have to push back. Pick up Dr. Einstein’s book Hoodwinked: How Marketers Use the Same Tactics as Cults on Bookshop.org (and beyond): https://bookshop.org/a/116018/9781493086153 [https://bookshop.org/a/116018/9781493086153] Website: https://www.drmaraeinstein.com  Books: https://www.drmaraeinstein.com/writing  Instagram, TikTok, Threads: @drmaraeinstein YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/@Drmaraeinstein    Credits Production: Multitude [http://google.com/search?q=multitude+podcasts&oq=multitude+podcast&gs_lcrp=EgZjaHJvbWUqCQgAEEUYOxiABDIJCAAQRRg7GIAEMgYIARBFGDsyCAgCEAAYFhgeMggIAxAAGBYYHjIICAQQABgWGB4yDQgFEAAYhgMYgAQYigUyDQgGEAAYhgMYgAQYigUyBggHEEUYPdIBCDE3MjhqMGo3qAIAsAIA&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8] Lead Producer & Editor: Bren Frederick Music: Marc Langer Cover art: Cayla Einstein See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy [https://art19.com/privacy] and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info [https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info].