Liminal Space 临界之间

Third Culture Kid to Third Space Builder: Ruby Pak on Identity, Friction, and Designing Belonging in Shanghai

In this episode, we sit down with Ruby Pak—hospitality entrepreneur and third-culture operator—to trace a life shaped by constant movement across systems, cities, and expectations. Ruby’s story begins in Hong Kong and stretches across Beijing, Vancouver, the UK, and now Shanghai—a trajectory that exposes the subtle frictions of growing up between cultures. From language barriers and social exclusion in school to the quiet recalibrations required in each new environment, her upbringing becomes less about belonging to a place and more about learning how to adapt without losing a sense of self. That tension carries into her early career, where she enters the world of luxury marketing only to confront the realities of office hierarchy, toxicity, and misalignment. What follows is not a clean pivot, but a gradual unraveling—one that leads her toward entrepreneurship in Shanghai’s hospitality and fitness scene. Through building Hasa House, Ruby begins to rethink what a “space” can be: not just a business, but an ecosystem for wellness, community, and self-reinvention. Along the way, we explore how cultural identity evolves across geographies, why career paths rarely move in straight lines, and how moments of discomfort—social, professional, or internal—can become catalysts for clarity. At its core, this conversation asks: What does it mean to build a life that feels coherent when your experiences are anything but? Key Themes * Multicultural upbringing across Hong Kong, Beijing, Canada, the UK, and Shanghai * Identity formation under conditions of constant transition * Language, exclusion, and social integration in different school systems * Career disillusionment and confronting workplace toxicity * Entrepreneurship as a response to misalignment * Building hybrid spaces that blend hospitality, fitness, and wellness * Resilience, self-awareness, and redefining success on personal terms Key Takeaways * Growing up across multiple cultures can sharpen adaptability, but often complicates a stable sense of identity. * Experiences of exclusion—especially through language—leave lasting imprints on confidence and belonging. * Early career environments can reveal misalignment more clearly than they provide direction. * Leaving a toxic workplace is often less about escape and more about reclaiming agency. * Entrepreneurship is frequently born from frustration with existing systems rather than pure ambition. * Physical and social spaces can be intentionally designed to support both individual and collective well-being. * Clarity around one’s values tends to emerge gradually, often through periods of discomfort and transition. Chapters 00:00 Exploring Liminal Spaces in Identity and Culture 00:49 Meet Ruby Pak: From Tradition to Reinvention 02:39 Growing Up Between Cities: Hong Kong and Beijing 05:26 Cultural Shock and Early Adaptation 09:06 Language, Exclusion, and School Life 12:50 Structure, Conformity, and Education Systems 15:31 Moving to Canada: A New Cultural Lens 18:17 Fitting In vs. Standing Apart 22:57 Navigating the Canadian Education System 26:59 College Decisions and Identity Formation 31:23 Reflections on University and Early Ambitions 35:57 Time in the UK and Career Direction 40:23 Entering the Professional World 44:49 Workplace Challenges and Personal Growth 48:01 Choosing People Over Prestige 55:18 Building a Restaurant from Scratch 01:06:17 Introducing Hasa House 01:16:14 Lessons for the Next Generation 01:26:25 Coffee Across Three Cities Links: 福和光酒家 Fook Wo Kwong Restaurant [https://m.dianping.com/shopinfo/H43Tk97j6mVctbyv?msource=Appshare2021&utm_source=shop_share&shoptype=10&shopcategoryid=205&cityid=1&isoversea=0] Hasa House Redbook [https://xhslink.com/m/3esgV8mWe0f] Hasa House Instagram [https://www.instagram.com/hasahouse_?igsh=MTNlZjRuMTI1cDlmMQ==] Hasa House (WeChat Account): Your Oasis in the City [https://mp.weixin.qq.com/s/QJka6_Ro1jBugjm4hKb6AA] This podcast is brought to you by C^2 Collective, a multicultural nonprofit community empowering young people across China and beyond to think curiously, connect across cultures, and create positive change | see https://csquared-collective.com/ | We host events, run a social innovation network, and publish the Curation^2 newsletter @ https://imablur.substack.com/ Music by Megan Tan Art by Cindy Zhang 从第三文化小孩到第三空间的创造者：Ruby Pak谈身份、摩擦与在上海“设计归属” 在这一期节目中，我们邀请到Ruby Pak——餐饮创业者，同时也是一位典型的“第三文化成长者”，一起梳理一段在不同制度、城市与期待之间不断迁移的人生轨迹。 Ruby的故事始于香港，延展至北京、温哥华、英国，最终落脚上海。这一路跨越的不只是地理空间，更是文化与身份的反复碰撞。从校园中的语言障碍与被排斥的经历，到在不同环境中不断进行的自我校准，她的成长逐渐不再围绕“属于哪里”，而是转向如何在变化中保留自我。 这种张力延续到了她的职业早期。进入奢侈品营销行业后，她很快直面职场中的等级结构、隐性规则与不健康的工作环境。她的转变并非一次果断的跳跃，而更像是一种缓慢的“松动”与重构，最终将她带入上海的餐饮与社交健身领域。在创立Hasa House的过程中，Ruby开始重新思考“空间”的意义——它不只是一个商业场所，更可以成为承载身心健康、连接人与人、以及自我重塑的复合场域。 在这场对话中，我们也讨论了文化身份如何在不同语境中演化，为什么职业路径往往并非线性，以及那些来自社交、职业或内心的不适，如何反而成为通向清晰与自我认知的契机。归根结底，这期节目试图回答一个问题：当一个人的经历本身是碎片化的，我们该如何构建一种依然连贯的人生？ 核心主题 * 跨越香港、北京、加拿大、英国与上海的多元成长经历 * 持续迁移状态下的身份建构 * 语言、排斥与不同教育体系中的社会融入 * 职业幻灭与对有毒职场环境的反思 * 将“错位感”转化为创业动力 * 融合餐饮、健身与社交的复合型空间构建 * 韧性、自我认知与对“成功”的再定义 关键收获 * 多文化成长经历能够提升适应能力，但也可能使身份认同变得更为复杂。 * 语言带来的排斥感，往往会对自信与归属感产生深远影响。 * 早期职场经历更容易暴露“不适配”，而不一定提供明确方向。 * 离开不健康的工作环境，与其说是逃离，不如说是重新掌握主动权。 * 创业常常源于对既有系统的不满，而非单纯的雄心。 * 空间可以被有意识地设计，从而同时承载个体与群体的身心需求。 * 对自我价值的清晰认知，往往是在不适与过渡中逐渐形成的。 章节 00:00 身份与文化之间的“边界空间” 00:49 认识Ruby Pak：从传统路径到自我重构 02:39 成长于多座城市之间：香港与北京 05:26 文化冲击与早期适应 09:06 语言、排斥与校园经历 12:50 教育体系中的结构与规范 15:31 前往加拿大：新的文化视角 18:17 融入与自我区分的拉扯 22:57 适应加拿大教育体系 26:59 大学选择与身份形成 31:23 对大学生活与早期理想的反思 35:57 英国经历与职业方向 40:23 进入职场 44:49 职场挑战与个人成长 48:01 在人和“名头”之间做选择 55:18 从零开始打造一家餐厅 01:06:17 Hasa House的诞生 01:16:14 给下一代的建议 01:26:25 三座城市的咖啡推荐 福和光酒家 Fook Wo Kwong Restaurant: https://m.dianping.com/shopinfo/H43Tk97j6mVctbyv?msource=Appshare2021&utm_source=shop_share&shoptype=10&shopcategoryid=205&cityid=1&isoversea=0 [https://m.dianping.com/shopinfo/H43Tk97j6mVctbyv?msource=Appshare2021&utm_source=shop_share&shoptype=10&shopcategoryid=205&cityid=1&isoversea=0] Hasa House 小红书: https://xhslink.com/m/3esgV8mWe0f [https://xhslink.com/m/3esgV8mWe0f] Hasa House Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/hasahouse_?igsh=MTNlZjRuMTI1cDlmMQ== [https://www.instagram.com/hasahouse_?igsh=MTNlZjRuMTI1cDlmMQ==] Hasa House（微信公众号）：Your Oasis in the City [https://mp.weixin.qq.com/s/QJka6_Ro1jBugjm4hKb6AA] 本播客由 C² Collective 出品——一个立足中国、连接全球的多元文化非营利社区，致力于鼓励年轻人保持好奇、跨越文化连接，并创造积极的社会影响 官网：https://csquared-collective.com/ [https://csquared-collective.com/] Newsletter：Curation² @ https://imablur.substack.com/ [https://imablur.substack.com/] 音乐：Megan Tan 视觉：Cindy Zhang

From China's Education System to Startup Side-Quests: Gab Liu on Curiosity, Culture, and Career Detours

In this episode, we sit down with Gab Liu—entrepreneur, cultural observer, and prolific side-project builder—to explore how a life lived across systems shapes the way you see opportunity. Gab grew up navigating Beijing’s highly structured education system before finding intellectual and personal freedom in the U.S. at Oberlin and Wellesley. That experience of moving between worlds—Chinese and American, institutional and experimental—eventually shaped a career path that refuses to stay in one lane: venture capital, banking, consulting, and an ever-growing portfolio of side ventures ranging from an incense brand to a matchmaking platform. Along the way, we talk about creativity under pressure in China’s education system, the hidden hierarchies inside traditional workplaces, and why curiosity and resourcefulness often matter more than a perfectly planned career path. We also dive into Gab’s creative outlets—music, fencing, and podcasting—and how side projects can become laboratories for identity, experimentation, and reinvention. At its core, this conversation asks a deceptively simple question: How do you build a life that remains open to experimentation while navigating systems that reward stability? *To get this episode uploaded on the Xiaoyuzhou platform, we had to redact two short remarks at around 39:30 and 1:03:40. If you'd like to watch/listen to the unabridged version please navigate to (Youtube) From China's Education System to Startup Side Quests: Gab Liu on Curiosity, Culture, and Career Detours [https://imablur.substack.com/p/from-chinas-education-system-to-startup] or (Substack) From China's Education System to Startup Side Quests: Gab Liu on Curiosity, Culture, and Career Detours [https://imablur.substack.com/p/from-chinas-education-system-to-startup] Key Themes * Growing up inside China’s education system and its effect on creativity * Cross-cultural transitions between Beijing and American liberal arts colleges * Entrepreneurship through experimentation and side projects * Career shifts across venture capital, consulting, and finance * Cultural hierarchies and workplace dynamics in China * Building niche businesses that translate culture across markets * Creative outlets as a counterbalance to professional life * Curiosity, resilience, and designing a non-linear career Key Takeaways * Early exposure to different systems can shape how people approach risk and opportunity. * Creativity often emerges at the margins of rigid institutions. * Side projects can function as “labs” for identity, experimentation, and new ideas. * Understanding cultural hierarchy is essential for navigating traditional work environments. * Cross-cultural experiences can reveal unexpected market opportunities. * Career paths rarely unfold in a straight line; adaptability often matters more than planning. * Creative pursuits—music, sport, or art—can anchor personal growth during periods of transition. Chapters 00:00 Exploring Liminal Spaces: Introduction to the Podcast 00:43 Meet Gab Liu: A Multifaceted Entrepreneur 02:13 Early Life and Education: Growing Up in Beijing 08:39 Transitioning to High School: Challenges and Changes 13:01 Finding Freedom: A Year of Exploration Before College 15:58 College Experience: From Oberlin to Wellesley 25:25 Navigating Career Paths: Returning to China Post-COVID 29:31 Career Choices and Early Experiences 31:46 Insights from Venture Capital 34:50 The Role of Background in Success 36:42 Transitioning from VC to Consulting 38:45 Work Culture in Traditional Chinese Companies 41:56 Starting a Side Business: Incenzo 46:28 Marketing Cultural Products to Western Audiences 50:47 Investing in a Matchmaking Platform 54:44 Navigating Traditional Work Environments 01:00:51 Navigating Workplace Dynamics 01:03:43 Future Aspirations and Side Hustles 01:07:03 Cultural Bridges and Business Models 01:09:01 Creative Outlets and Personal Growth 01:13:46 Advice for the Uncertain 01:18:13 Podcast Recommendations and Closing Thoughts Gab's Incense Startup: https://incenzo.co (Get 25% off with the code "Liminal25" at checkout!) Gab's music projects: https://soundcloud.com/gab-liu Chinese matchmaking platform: YuuSii 名校社交 (search on WeChat) Email for Business Inquiries: gabriellagoode@gmail.com Instagram/ WeChat: gabgoode This podcast is brought to you by C^2 Collective, a multicultural nonprofit community empowering young people across China and beyond to think curiously, connect across cultures, and create positive change | see https://csquared-collective.com/ | We host events, run a social innovation network, and publish the Curation^2 newsletter @ https://imablur.substack.com/ Music by Megan Tan Art by Cindy Zhang 从中国教育体系到创业副项目：Gab Liu谈好奇心、文化与非线性职业路径  在这一期《Liminal Space》中，我们邀请到 Gab Liu——创业者、文化观察者，以及“副业实验家”，一起聊聊：当一个人的人生横跨不同制度与文化时，会如何改变他看待机会、风险与人生路径的方式。 Gab 在北京长大，早年经历了中国高度结构化的教育体系。后来，他前往美国，在 Oberlin 和 Wellesley 的自由学术环境中找到了另一种思考与生活方式。这种在不同体系之间不断转换的经历——中国与美国、体制与探索——逐渐塑造了一条难以被单一标签定义的职业道路：从 风险投资、投行与咨询，到不断尝试的创业与副业项目，例如香品牌 Incenzo 和一个撮合平台。 在这期节目中，我们聊到了很多话题：  中国教育体系中的创造力困境、传统企业中的隐性等级文化，以及为什么 好奇心和解决问题的能力，往往比“精心规划的职业路径”更重要。我们也谈到 Gab 的创意出口——音乐、击剑、播客——以及副项目如何成为一个人探索身份、实验想法、不断重塑自我的“实验室”。 归根结底，这场对话围绕着一个看似简单的问题展开：  当社会体系鼓励稳定与确定性时，一个人如何仍然保持对探索与可能性的开放？ 核心话题 * 在中国教育体系中成长，以及它对创造力的影响 * 从北京到美国文理学院的跨文化教育体验 * 通过副项目和实验式创业探索机会 * 从风险投资到咨询与金融行业的职业转折 * 中国传统企业中的等级文化与职场生态 * 将文化元素转化为跨市场商业机会 * 创意爱好作为职业生活的平衡器 * 好奇心、韧性与非线性人生路径 关键收获 * 早期接触不同制度与文化，会深刻影响一个人对风险与机会的理解。 * 创造力往往诞生在制度边缘，而不是制度中心。 * 副项目可以成为探索身份、实验想法和孵化新机会的“实验室”。 * 理解文化中的等级关系，有助于更好地适应传统组织环境。 * 跨文化经验往往能揭示意想不到的市场机会。 * 人生路径很少是直线型的，适应力往往比规划更重要。 * 音乐、运动和艺术等创意实践，可以在人生转折期成为重要的锚点。 时间轴 00:00 探索“临界空间”：节目开场  00:43 认识 Gab Liu：多重身份的创业者  02:13 在北京长大：教育体系与成长经历  08:39 高中阶段的转折与挑战  13:01 上大学前的一年探索期  15:58 大学经历：从 Oberlin 到 Wellesley  25:25 疫情之后回到中国  29:31 职业选择与早期经历  31:46 风险投资行业的观察  34:50 背景与成功之间的关系  36:42 从 VC 转向咨询  38:45 中国传统企业文化  41:56 创立香品牌 Incenzo  46:28 将文化产品卖给西方市场  50:47 投资一个相亲平台  54:44 在传统职场中的生存方式  01:00:51 职场动态与人际关系  01:03:43 未来计划与副项目  01:07:03 跨文化商业模式  01:09:01 创意爱好与个人成长  01:13:46 给迷茫者的建议  01:18:13 推荐播客与结尾 嘉宾链接 Gab 的香品牌（Incenzo）： https://incenzo.co [https://incenzo.co/] 结账时输入优惠码 Liminal25 可享 75折优惠 Gab 的音乐项目： https://soundcloud.com/gab-liu [https://soundcloud.com/gab-liu] 名校社交平台：YuuSii 名校社交 可在 微信搜索「YuuSii 名校社交」 商务合作邮箱： gabriellagoode@gmail.com Instagram / 微信： gabgoode 关于我们 本播客由 C² Collective 支持。 C² Collective 是一个多元文化的非营利社区，致力于连接中国与世界各地的年轻人，鼓励跨文化交流、开放思考与积极行动。 了解更多： https://csquared-collective.com/ [https://csquared-collective.com/] 我们也运营 Curation² Newsletter，分享有意思的思想、故事与链接： https://imablur.substack.com/ [https://imablur.substack.com/] Music by Megan Tan Art by Cindy Zhang

From Movement to Stillness: Ming Khor on Nomadism, Burnout, and Building a Life That Fits

In this episode of Liminal Space, we sit down with Ming Khor (education entrepreneur, former digital nomad, and cross-cultural bridge-builder) to talk about identity, service, and what it means to live between worlds without needing to dominate them. Ming reflects on growing up in a multicultural environment in Washington, D.C., and how a formative experience volunteering as a teacher in China reshaped his understanding of privilege, service learning, and cultural humility. That journey eventually led him to build an education company centered on experiential, cross-cultural learning—designed not around “helping from above,” but around meeting others on equal footing. The conversation also traces the less romantic side of entrepreneurship: rapid growth during the pandemic, a painful contraction that followed, and the emotional reckoning that pushed Ming toward a slower, more values-aligned way of living. Along the way, we talk about risk, validation, mental health, nomadism, and the quiet power of stillness. At its core, this episode asks: How do you design a life that honors your cross-cultural identity—without burning out or losing yourself to the system? Key Themes * Identity and privilege in liminal cultural spaces * Service learning vs. saviorism * Cross-cultural connection on equal footing * Entrepreneurship, risk, and pandemic volatility * Nomadism, slowing down, and value alignment * Mental health, validation, and imposter syndrome * Using a cross-cultural background as an asset Key Takeaways * Liminal spaces offer perspective—but they also require humility. * Service learning works best when it’s rooted in mutual respect, not superiority. * Rapid growth without risk management can come at a psychological cost. * Slowing down is not failure; it can be a strategic and ethical choice. * Every person is a “portal” into a different way of living and thinking. * Cross-cultural identity isn’t a liability—it’s a form of leverage. * Being still is also a form of action. Chapters 00:00 — Identity, Culture, and Liminal Spaces 04:55 — Ming’s Multicultural Background 08:19 — First Encounters with China 11:41 — Service Learning and Cultural Humility 14:45 — From Teaching to Entrepreneurship 21:40 — Business School, Direction, and Doubt 26:35 — Imposter Syndrome and Validation 33:08 — Creating Opportunities Outside the System 35:51 — Building Keru and Experiential Learning 46:14 — Pandemic Growth, Collapse, and Resilience 51:20 — Nomadism, Freedom, and Self-Discovery 01:03:39 — Letting Go of Urban Life 01:07:08 — The Need for Roots and Stability 01:10:02 — Family, Relationships, and Priorities 01:10:56 — Listening to the Body: Stillness vs. Action 01:14:36 — Passion and Personal Fulfillment 01:14:52 — Advice for Those Who Feel Lost 01:19:14 — Cross-Cultural Identity as an Advantage 01:21:38 — Final Reflections and Looking Forward 01:28:14 — Recommendations & Outro Ming's YouTube Channel: https://www.youtube.com/@shaguoyu Ming's Substack: https://shaguoyu.substack.com This podcast is brought to you by C^2 Collective, a multicultural nonprofit community empowering young people across China and beyond to think curiously, connect across cultures, and create positive change. We host events, run a social innovation network, and publish the Curation^2 newsletter @ https://csquared-collective.com/ Music by Megan Tan Art by Cindy Zhang 从流动到安定：Ming Khor 谈游牧生活、倦怠与如何打造真正适合自己的人生 在本期 Liminal Space《临界之间》 中，我们与 Ming Khor 展开了一场深入的对话。Ming 是一位教育创业者、前数字游民，也是一位长期游走于不同文化之间的“跨文化搭桥者”。我们一起聊了身份、服务，以及如何在不同世界之间生活——而不是试图去主导或凌驾于它们之上。 Ming 回顾了自己在美国华盛顿特区多元文化环境中成长的经历，也分享了一段对他影响深远的经历：在中国担任志愿教师。这次经历重新塑造了他对“特权”“服务式学习（service learning）”以及“文化谦逊”的理解。也正是从这里出发，他后来创办了一家以跨文化体验式学习为核心的教育公司——不是站在“高处去帮助别人”，而是与不同文化背景的人在平等的位置上相遇、交流与学习。 对话同样没有回避创业中不那么浪漫的一面：疫情期间的快速扩张、随之而来的业务收缩，以及那段迫使他重新审视生活节奏与价值排序的心理低谷。我们谈到了风险、社会认可、心理健康、游牧式生活，也谈到“慢下来”本身所蕴含的安静力量。 从更深层次来看，这一期其实在追问一个问题： 如何在尊重自己跨文化身份的同时，设计一种不被系统吞噬、也不把自己耗尽的人生？ 核心主题（Key Themes） * 临界文化空间中的身份与特权 * 服务式学习 vs. “救世主心态” * 建立在平等基础上的跨文化连接 * 创业、风险管理与疫情时期的不确定性 * 游牧生活、放慢节奏与价值对齐 * 心理健康、社会认可与冒名顶替综合征 * 将跨文化背景转化为人生资产 关键收获（Key Takeaways） * 临界空间能带来视角，但也需要谦逊。 * 真正有效的服务式学习，来自相互尊重，而非居高临下。 * 缺乏风险管理的高速增长，往往伴随着心理代价。 * 慢下来并不等于失败，它可能是一种更有策略性、也更有伦理感的选择。 * 每一个人，都是通向另一种生活方式与思维系统的入口。 * 跨文化身份不是负担，而是一种“杠杆”。 * 停下来，本身也是一种行动。 时间轴（Chapters） 00:00 — 身份、文化与临界空间 04:55 — Ming 的多元文化成长背景 08:19 — 初识中国的经历 11:41 — 服务式学习与文化谦逊 14:45 — 从教学到创业的转变 21:40 — 商学院、方向感与迷茫 26:35 — 冒名顶替感与对认可的渴望 33:08 — 在系统之外创造机会 35:51 — Keru 的诞生与体验式学习 46:14 — 疫情中的增长、崩塌与复原 51:20 — 游牧生活、自由与自我探索 01:03:39 — 离开城市中心 01:07:08 — 对“扎根”的重新理解 01:10:02 — 家庭、关系与人生优先级 01:10:56 — 倾听身体：静止与行动之间 01:14:36 — 热情与个人满足感 01:14:52 — 给“迷路者”的建议 01:19:14 — 跨文化身份的优势 01:21:38 — 尾声：未来与个人成长 01:28:14 — 推荐与结束语 相关链接 Ming 的 YouTube 频道： https://www.youtube.com/@shaguoyu [https://www.youtube.com/@shaguoyu] Ming 的 Substack： https://shaguoyu.substack.com [https://shaguoyu.substack.com/] 本播客由 C² Collective 出品。 C² 是一个立足中国、面向全球的多元文化非营利社区，致力于鼓励年轻人保持好奇、跨文化连接，并创造积极的社会影响。我们举办线下活动，运营社会创新网络，并出版 Curation² 电子刊。 了解更多： https://csquared-collective.com/ [https://csquared-collective.com/] 音乐：Megan Tan 视觉设计：Cindy Zhang

From Oregon to Vietnam to China: Owen Sutter on Ethical Making, Art, and Life in Motion

In this episode, we sit down with Owen Sutter—an Oregonian who crossed the Pacific in search of opportunity, challenge, and a life that would never feel boring. From the chaotic charm of Ho Chi Minh City to the hyper-efficient pace of Shenzhen, Owen’s story reflects what happens when you place yourself at the edge of comfort and let the world reshape you. We talk about ethical manufacturing, cultural immersion, and why Owen built a travel backpack brand, XOÀI Packs, rooted in transparency and fair labor. We explore the differences between Vietnamese warmth and Chinese ambition, the loneliness and beauty of building community from scratch, and how oil painting unexpectedly became his anchor in a new city. At its core, this conversation is about designing a life the way you design a product: with intention, curiosity, and an open heart. Key Themes * Identity & culture in motion * Living abroad as a catalyst for personal reinvention * Ethical supply chains & transparent product pricing * Individualism vs. collectivism across cultures * Community-building in Vietnam and Shenzhen * Art as mindfulness & meaning-making * Creativity, risk, and designing a non-boring life * The philosophy of liminal spaces Takeaways * Liminal spaces help us understand who we are becoming. * Cultural immersion—done honestly—reshapes worldview and values. * Transparency in pricing and production can benefit both maker and buyer. * Career pivots during COVID required self-advocacy and courage. * Vietnam taught Owen the power of community, warmth, and slowing down. * Ethical manufacturing demands more than certifications; it requires care. * Work-life balance dramatically differs across Asia. * Painting helps Owen appreciate the world with more attention and presence. * Building community in Shenzhen requires intention; hustle culture can isolate. * Designing a travel backpack was as much about designing a life. * Keeping an open heart invites opportunities you couldn’t plan for. * Avoiding a “boring life” became a guiding principle. * Being in a liminal space often opens more doors than it closes. Chapters 00:00 — Exploring Liminal Spaces  01:14 — Introducing Owen Sutter  01:58 — The Backpack Business & Transparent Pricing  04:08 — Growing Up in the Pacific Northwest  06:13 — Career Pathfinding During COVID  08:19 — How the Pandemic Shaped Opportunity  12:40 — First Impressions of Vietnam  15:14 — Individualism vs. Collectivism  18:45 — Early Influences and Emerging Goals  23:16 — Inside Vietnam’s Manufacturing Ecosystem  27:41 — Supply Chain Challenges & Factory Realities  30:28 — Cultural Differences in Problem-Solving  33:48 — The Rising Potential of Vietnam  36:25 — Building Community Abroad  41:32 — Navigating Culture in Daily Life  44:15 — The Leap to Shenzhen  46:05 — Art as Expression & Mindfulness  50:36 — Finding an Artistic Community  54:54 — Challenges of Making Friends in Shenzhen  58:35 — Building the Travel Backpack Business  01:02:47 — Ethical Manufacturing & Values  01:06:28 — Vision for XOÀI Packs & Personal Growth  01:09:33 — Immersing in China’s Complexity  01:14:28 — Designing Life Through Opportunity  01:20:44 — Creative Recommendations & Closing Owen's backpack project: www.xoaipacks.com Email for inquiries: Owen@xoaipacks.com  Owen’s Newly Published Travel Writing: https://www.newenglishreview.org/articles/84984-2/ This podcast is brought to you by C^2 Collective, a multicultural nonprofit community empowering young people across China and beyond to think curiously, connect across cultures, and create positive change. We host events, run a social innovation network, and publish the Curation^2 newsletter @ https://csquared-collective.com/ Music by Megan Tan Art by Cindy Zhang 从俄勒冈到越南再到中国：Owen Sutter 谈伦理制造、艺术与一段“在路上”的人生 在本期节目中，我们与 Owen Sutter 对谈——一位从俄勒冈跨越太平洋、寻找机会、挑战，以及“不无聊的人生”的年轻人。从胡志明市的混乱魅力，到深圳的高速律动，Owen 的旅程展示了：当一个人甘愿站在舒适区边缘，让世界重新塑造你时，会发生什么。 我们聊到 伦理制造、文化沉浸，以及他为何打造了透明定价、注重公平劳动的旅行背包品牌 XOÀI Packs。我们也讨论越南式的温暖与中国式的雄心之间的差异、在异乡从零建立社区的孤独与美感，以及为什么油画竟成了他在深圳扎根的方式。 归根到底，这期节目探讨的，是如何像设计产品一样——以 意图、好奇、与一颗敞开的心——来设计人生。 核心主题 * 身份与文化的流动 * 海外生活如何成为自我重塑的催化剂 * 伦理供应链与透明定价 * 个人主义与集体主义的文化差异 * 在越南与深圳建立社区 * 艺术作为正念与意义的来源 * 创造力、风险，以及拒绝“无聊人生” * “过渡空间”（liminal space）的哲学 收获要点 * 过渡空间帮助我们理解正在成为的自己。 * 真诚的文化沉浸会重塑价值观与人生观。 * 透明的生产与定价，对消费者与生产者都有益。 * COVID 时期的职业转向需要自我争取与勇气。 * 越南教会了 Owen 社区、温暖和生活节奏的力量。 * 伦理制造不仅是认证，更是一种关怀。 * 亚洲各地的工作文化与生活平衡差异巨大。 * 绘画让人以更专注的方式欣赏世界。 * 在深圳建立社区需要刻意行动；“奋斗文化”容易让人孤立。 * 设计旅行背包，也是设计人生的一部分。 * 保持一颗敞开的心，会迎来意想不到的机遇。 * “不要过无聊人生”成为他的准则。 * 身处“过渡空间”，往往能看到更多可能。 章节结构 00:00 — 探索 Liminal Spaces  01:14 — 认识 Owen Sutter  01:58 — 背包品牌与透明定价  04:08 — 成长于美国西北  06:13 — COVID 期间的职业探索  08:19 — 疫情如何改变机会  12:40 — 对越南的第一印象  15:14 — 个人主义 vs. 集体主义  18:45 — 早期影响与未来目标  23:16 — 越南制造业的内部生态  27:41 — 供应链挑战与工厂现实  30:28 — 文化差异与问题解决方式  33:48 — 越南的潜力  36:25 — 在海外建立社区  41:32 — 日常生活中的文化碰撞  44:15 — 移居深圳的跃迁  46:05 — 艺术、表达与正念  50:36 — 寻找艺术社群  54:54 — 在深圳交朋友的挑战  58:35 — 构建旅行背包事业  01:02:47 — 伦理制造与价值观  01:06:28 — XOÀI Packs 的愿景与个人成长  01:09:33 — 深度融入中国  01:14:28 — 用机会设计人生  01:20:44 — 创意推荐与结束语 相关链接 Owen 的背包项目：www.xoaipacks.com [http://www.xoaipacks.com] 商业合作邮箱：Owen@xoaipacks.com Owen’s 新出版的旅游文章: https://www.newenglishreview.org/articles/84984-2/ 关于本播客 本播客由 C² Collective 出品——一个跨文化的非营利青年社区，致力于激发好奇、连接文化、并推动积极改变。我们举办活动、运营社会创新网络，并出版双语通讯 Curation²：https://csquared-collective.com/ [https://csquared-collective.com/] 音乐：Megan Tan 视觉设计：Cindy Zhang

A Chef's Journey Between Shanghai and Melbourne: Tina Zhao on Food, Identity, and Creative Freedom

What happens when love sends you halfway across the world, and food brings you back home? In this episode, Susan and I sit down with Tina Zhao — chef, entrepreneur, and founder of Alinta, a Shanghai restaurant that fuses Australian ease with Chinese precision. Tina first left Shanghai at 17 to chase love in Melbourne, only to discover something else entirely: her calling in the kitchen. From culinary school to fine dining, from private dining startups to reality TV, Tina’s story charts the high heat of the food industry across the creativity, the chaos, and the craving for ownership. We talk about what it means to build something that’s 100% yours, the pressures behind “celebrity chef” culture, and how food can become a language of identity, one that bridges continents, careers, and selves. Takeaways： * Tina moved to Melbourne at 17 to chase love. * Cultural shock was significant upon arriving in Australia. * Tina's culinary journey began in culinary school. * She found her passion for cooking quickly. * Returning to China inspired her entrepreneurial spirit. * Private dining became a successful venture for Tina. * Tina's experiences on cooking shows were intense and stressful. * She values privacy over fame despite her celebrity status. * Tina has launched food startups in China. * Her journey reflects the dynamic food industry landscape. Tina experienced significant stress in her previous roles due to high expectations and the need for constant creativity. * She transitioned from the food industry to a consulting role, where she learned valuable skills but felt constrained by corporate structures. * Tina's desire to open a restaurant stemmed from her passion for food and a need for creative freedom. * Alinta, her restaurant, represents a fusion of Australian and Chinese culinary influences. * Building a unique brand identity was crucial for Alinta, including designing the restaurant and creating a mascot. * Food serves as a cultural connector, allowing Tina to bridge her experiences in Australia and China. * Customer loyalty is challenging in the competitive Shanghai market, but Tina values the relationships she builds with regulars. * Tina emphasizes the importance of having something that is 100% yours, whether it's a business or a hobby. * She aims to help others in the food industry by sharing her knowledge and experiences. * Tina's journey reflects the importance of optimism and taking risks in pursuing one's passions. Chapters 00:00 Exploring Liminal Spaces: Introduction to the Podcast 05:20 Cultural Adaptation: Embracing Australian Life 11:06 From Culinary School to Fine Dining: Building a Career 16:30 The Entrepreneurial Spirit: Returning to China 20:22 The Reality of the Food Industry: Love and Stress 25:06 The Pressure of Fine Dining 28:50 Building Connections Through Food 30:44 The Journey to Television Stardom 31:37 Navigating the Challenges of Cooking Shows 32:38 The Fast-Paced Life in Shanghai 33:36 Cultural Adjustments After Returning to Shanghai 34:44 The Evolution of Shanghai's Food Scene 35:37 The Impact of Technology on Dining 36:35 Reflections on Fame and Privacy 37:26 Transitioning from Celebrity to Business 38:25 The Rise of Healthy Food Trends 39:14 Lessons from Food Startups 40:12 Consulting and Corporate Life 41:06 Balancing Creativity and Business 42:01 The Future of Culinary Ventures 45:27 Transitioning from Consulting to Culinary Ventures 49:10 The Impact of COVID-19 on Career Choices 52:53 The Birth of Alinta: A Culinary Dream Realized 57:43 Creating a Unique Brand Identity 01:03:22 Unexpected Encounters: A Full Circle Moment 01:04:16 Food as a Cultural Bridge 01:07:36 Evolving Menu Design for Customer Engagement 01:11:03 Adapting to Customer Preferences and Trends 01:12:33 The Journey of Entrepreneurship and Ownership 01:15:46 Vision for the Future in the Food Industry 01:18:06 Embracing Challenges and Positive Mindset 01:19:11 Recommendations and Personal Favorites Little Red (小红书): tinayuezhao Instagram: tinayyue Email Inquiries: tinayuezhao@gmail.com This podcast is brought to you by C^2 Collective, a multicultural nonprofit community empowering young people across China and beyond to think curiously, connect across cultures, and create positive change. We host events, run a social innovation network, and publish the Curation^2 newsletter @ https://csquared-collective.com/ Music by Megan Tan Art by Cindy Zhang 当爱情带你远渡重洋，而食物又带你回家 当爱情让你漂洋过海，而食物又将你带回故乡，会发生什么？ 在本期节目中，Susan 和我与 赵悦 Tina Zhao 对谈——她是一位厨师、创业者，也是上海餐厅 Alinta 的创始人。Alinta 将澳洲的轻松与中国的精致融合在一张餐桌上。17 岁那年，Tina 为了爱情离开上海前往墨尔本，却意外在厨房中找到真正的热情。从厨艺学校到高级餐厅，从私人定制餐饮到电视节目，她的故事横跨文化与行业，在高压与创造之间不断重塑自我。 我们聊到如何打造一个“百分之百属于自己”的事业，谈“名厨文化”背后的压力，也探讨食物如何成为一种跨越地域与身份的语言——连接大陆、职业与自我。 主要收获： * 17 岁赴墨尔本追爱，却意外开启厨艺人生 * 初到澳洲的文化冲击让她重新认识自我 * 在厨艺学校找到了对烹饪的热爱 * 回国后激发了创业精神 * 私人定制餐饮项目取得成功 * 参加电视美食节目的经历紧张而高压 * 尽管拥有明星厨师身份，她仍更重视隐私 * 在中国创办多家餐饮初创企业 * 经历了行业的快速变迁与高强度创造压力 * 后来转入咨询行业，虽收获职场经验，却受限于企业结构 * 渴望重获创作自由，于是决定开设自己的餐厅 * Alinta 将澳洲与中国的风味、记忆与技艺融为一体 * 她亲自打造餐厅品牌、设计形象与吉祥物 * 认为食物是文化的桥梁，连接澳洲与中国的经历 * 在竞争激烈的上海市场中，她珍视与常客的长期关系 * 她强调每个人都需要一个“百分之百属于自己”的空间 * 希望通过分享经验，帮助更多餐饮从业者 * 她的经历展现了乐观、勇气与冒险精神的重要性 节目章节： 00:00 探索“临界空间”：节目介绍  05:20 跨文化适应：融入澳洲生活  11:06 从厨艺学校到高级餐厅：职业起点  16:30 创业精神：回到中国  20:22 餐饮行业的现实：爱与压力  25:06 精致餐饮背后的高压  28:50 用食物建立人与人的联系  30:44 走上荧幕：厨艺节目经历  31:37 面对烹饪节目的挑战  32:38 上海的快节奏生活  33:36 回国后的文化再适应  34:44 上海餐饮业的演变  35:37 科技如何改变餐饮体验  36:35 关于名气与隐私的思考  37:26 从“明星厨师”到创业者的转型  38:25 健康饮食新趋势的兴起  39:14 餐饮创业的经验教训  40:12 咨询行业的学习与限制  41:06 平衡创意与商业的挑战  42:01 餐饮事业的未来展望  45:27 从咨询到再创业的转折  49:10 疫情对职业选择的影响  52:53 Alinta 诞生：一个烹饪梦想的实现 57:43 打造独特品牌与形象设计 01:03:22 意外重逢：命运的回环 01:04:16 食物作为文化的桥梁 01:07:36 菜单设计与顾客互动的演进 01:11:03 适应顾客偏好与餐饮趋势 01:12:33 创业与“拥有感”的旅程 01:15:46 对餐饮未来的展望 01:18:06 拥抱挑战与积极心态 01:19:11 推荐与个人喜好 联系方式 小红书 | tinayuezhao Instagram | tinayyue 商务邮箱 | tinayuezhao@gmail.com [tinayuezhao@gmail.com] 关于本播客 本播客由 C² Collective 出品。 C² 是一个跨文化的非营利青年社区，致力于激发好奇、促进连接、并推动积极改变。我们在中国及世界各地举办活动、运营社会创新网络，并出版双语通讯 Curation²。 了解更多内容，请访问 👉 https://csquared-collective.com/ [https://csquared-collective.com/] 音乐：Megan Tan 视觉设计：Cindy Zhang