A New Pilgrimage: John Vervaeke on Finding Practices that Build Meaning | Over the Mountains #15

A New Pilgrimage: John Vervaeke on Finding Practices that Build Meaning | Over the Mountains #15

John Vervaeke argues that the meaning crisis isn’t a personal problem or a cultural preference. It’s a civilisational crisis — rooted in how the West, beginning with the Reformation and accelerating through the Scientific Revolution, has progressively severed itself from the forms of wisdom that once made life feel real, connected, and sacred. In this conversation with Rufus Pollock, he turns from diagnosis toward something harder and more important: what we can actually do. What’s needed is an ecology of practices — a coherent set of complementary disciplines that together cultivate meaning, wisdom, and genuine contact with reality. Not a single technique or belief system. Something more like what Buddhism or Neoplatonism built at their best: interwoven practices that correct and support each other, held within communities, and embodied in people worth emulating. “What we have to do is fall in love with wisdom and fall in love with reality — the way we have been talking about here.” Vervaeke introduces a new kind of pilgrimage, a contemporary form that preserves what made the ancient practice genuinely transformative. He describes his own recent Neoplatonic pilgrimage across Europe, visiting places connected to thinkers and traditions that shaped his inner life — the equivalent, he suggests, of what medieval pilgrims were really doing when they walked toward what they most deeply revered. It’s not about the destination. It’s about what the journey does to your senses: sharpening insight, renewing contact with reality, and opening you to what he calls voluntary necessity — the felt pull of something worth orienting your life around. We’re exploring this territory as fellow travellers. We don’t have the full map of what a Second Renaissance ecology of practices looks like — nobody does yet. But conversations like this one feel like genuine steps toward it: rigorous enough to trust, open enough to surprise us. “Put on my tombstone: neither nostalgia nor utopia. We can’t go back before the scientific revolution and we can’t go back from global awareness.” We’ll be diving deeper into pilgrimage as a meta-practice to break out of our fixed framings and renew our spiritual senses in another John Vervaeke podcast episode coming soon. Stay in touch, fellow travellers. 00:00 Introduction01:43 John Vervaeke’s Journey to Wisdom06:48 The Role of Socrates and Personal Inquiry11:10 Understanding the Meaning Crisis22:29 The Genealogy of the Meaning Crisis34:34 Cultivating Wisdom and the Sacred41:37 The Nature of Truth, Goodness, and Beauty42:04 The Interplay of Subjective and Objective Realities48:39 Revisiting Historical Philosophical Errors56:47 Practices for Cultivating Wisdom58:41 Dialogical Practices and the Search for Meaning01:05:26 The Quest for Certainty and Self-Correction01:11:17 Ecology of Practices and Role Models01:12:13 Pilgrimage as a Meta-Practice01:19:49 The Return of the Sacred and the Really Real01:26:42 Religion Beyond Religion: Structures for the Sacred Speakers John Vervaeke, [https://johnvervaeke.com/] Ph.D. is an award-winning professor of psychology, cognitive science, and Buddhist psychology at the University of Toronto. Rufus Pollock [https://lifeitself.org/people/rufuspollock] is a co-founder of Life Itself, an entrepreneur, activist, an author, as well as a long-term zen practitioner. About Over the Mountains Over The Mountains by Life Itself is a podcast and blog exploring the understandings and system shifts needed to bring forth a Second Renaissance [https://secondrenaissance.net/], to live within a metamodern reality that works for everyone. The title Over The Mountains is a metaphor for the long and often difficult journey humanity must take together. In a time when many seek shortcuts — especially through technology — this podcast reminds us that those shortcuts can lead to greater destruction. To truly reach the other side, we must climb over the mountain: facing the complexity of collective action, institutional change, and the reimagining of our shared reality. Over the Mountains focuses on the societal, political, economic, and ontological transformations required for such a world to emerge. Featuring conversations with sensemakers and the builders of tomorrow such as Rufus Pollock, Liam Kavanagh, Sylvie Barbier, Jonah Wilberg and many others, this series shares knowledge from sociology, economics, political philosophy, history, neuroscience, and ideological science, making these insights accessible to a wider audience. The ideas that we will share with you set out some of the reasoning and ideas for the creation of Life Itself and the Second Renaissance initiatives. Twitter - https://twitter.com/forlifeitself [https://twitter.com/forlifeitself] Website - https://lifeitself.org This is a public episode. If you would like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit overthemountains.substack.com [https://overthemountains.substack.com?utm_medium=podcast&utm_campaign=CTA_1]

The End of a World as We Know It : On Endings, Ruins and the Work Worth Doing | Over the Mountains #14

What does it mean to live at the end of a world — not the end of the world, but the end of a world, the one we built around us? In this rich, wide-ranging conversation, Rufus sits down with Dougald Hine [https://dougald.nu/] — writer, social thinker, and co-founder of the Dark Mountain Project [https://dark-mountain.net/about/manifesto/] — to trace a life spent following what he calls, in deeply unfashionable language, a calling. From turning down a BBC staff job at 25 to co-writing a manifesto that split the environmental movement down the middle, Dougald's story is about what happens when you trust your gut before you can explain it to your head. The conversation goes deep into the ideas behind his book At Work in the Ruins [https://dougald.nu/at-work-in-the-ruins/] — including why he found himself, mid-pandemic, with nothing left to say about climate change, and what that silence revealed. He argues we have been asking too much of science: outsourcing judgment, values, and politics to something never designed to carry that weight. What COVID exposed, he suggests, is not just a virus but the structural brittleness of modern societies that have quietly lost the distributed capacity — in families, communities, culture — to look after themselves. But this is not a conversation that ends in despair. Dougald offers a quietly radical map for what he calls "the four tasks for an age of endings" — saving, grieving, leaving, and weaving — and closes with Hannah Arendt's idea of natality: the newborn's first cry as the source of all genuine political possibility. The thing no algorithm can produce is the thing that has never been said before. If you've ever sensed that the story we've been living inside has run out, this episode will feel like finding people who noticed the same thing — and kept walking anyway. This is a public episode. If you would like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit overthemountains.substack.com [https://overthemountains.substack.com?utm_medium=podcast&utm_campaign=CTA_1]

Writing Our Own Stories About The Future: Xavier Snelgrove on consciousness and AI | Over the Mountains #13

In this episode of Over the Mountains, Sylvie is joined by tech and AI expert Xavier Snelgrove to explore how his experiences in tech shaped his unique perspective on AI and consciousness. Xavier shares insights from his time in the industry, revealing the pressures and narratives that drive technological advancement. The conversation delves into the stories we're told about AI and the potential alternatives. Xavier challenges the mainstream narratives, offering a vision of what a more thoughtful and reflective approach to technology could look like. When someone tells you what AI will be in five years, remember that person doesn’t know. They are imagining a future, and you can imagine a different one. He emphasizes the importance of stepping back and considering the broader cultural and ethical implications.Finally, we tackle the profound question: Is AI conscious? Xavier unpacks the complexities of consciousness, explaining why computation alone cannot account for the rich, subjective experience that defines being human. This episode invites you to rethink your assumptions and consider the deeper philosophical questions surrounding AI and our future. 00:00 Introduction 01:00 Defining Consciousness 02:30 AI and Human Experience 04:00 The Philosophy of Mind 06:00 The Role of Computation 08:00 Cultural Implications 10:00 Orbital Studies Overview 12:00 Future of AI and Humanity 14:00 Closing Thoughts Speakers Sylvie Barbier [https://lifeitself.org/people/sylvieshiweibarbier] is a co-founder of Life Itself, a performance artist, entrepreneur, and educator. Xavier Snelgrove [https://www.linkedin.com/in/xavier-snelgrove-89a2a036/] is an AI expert and applied research scientist with an engineering background, currently working on Orbital Studies [https://orbitalstudies.com], a literary science magazine that publish writing, visual art, and poetry all in service of a more beautiful scientific culture. See also About Over the Mountains Over The Mountains by Life Itself is a podcast and blog exploring the understandings and system shifts needed to bring forth a Second Renaissance [https://secondrenaissance.net/], to live within a metamodern reality that works for everyone. The title Over The Mountains is a metaphor for the long and often difficult journey humanity must take together. In a time when many seek shortcuts — especially through technology — this podcast reminds us that those shortcuts can lead to greater destruction. To truly reach the other side, we must climb over the mountain: facing the complexity of collective action, institutional change, and the reimagining of our shared reality. Over the Mountains focuses on the societal, political, economic, and ontological transformations required for such a world to emerge. Featuring conversations with sensemakers and the builders of tomorrow such as Rufus Pollock, Liam Kavanagh, Sylvie Barbier, Jonah Wilberg and many others, this series shares knowledge from sociology, economics, political philosophy, history, neuroscience, and ideological science, making these insights accessible to a wider audience. The ideas that we will share with you set out some of the reasoning and ideas for the creation of Life Itself and the Second Renaissance initiatives. Twitter - https://twitter.com/forlifeitself [https://twitter.com/forlifeitself] Website - https://lifeitself.org [https://lifeitself.org] This is a public episode. If you would like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit overthemountains.substack.com [https://overthemountains.substack.com?utm_medium=podcast&utm_campaign=CTA_1]

When Culture Stops Evolving: Robin Hanson on civilizational drift, the death of adaptive culture, and what it would take to survive | Over the Mountains #12

In this episode of Over the Mountains, Rufus is joined by economist and futurist Robin Hanson, who reshapes our understanding of cultural evolution and civilizational collapse, highlighting the importance of curiosity and original thought. Hanson argues that culture is humanity’s true superpower — a Darwinian process that has historically kept our values and norms fitted to reality. But over the last three centuries, the four key conditions that make cultural evolution work have each quietly shifted into failure: diversity has collapsed into a global monoculture, selection pressures have weakened as wealth insulates us from consequence, the pace of change has outrun our ability to adapt, and internally driven cultural shifts now steer us away from fitness rather than toward it. "Cultural evolution is the thing that gave you everything you value." The result, Robin suggests, is a civilisation drifting back toward its default human state, as he puts it plainly, “lazy, selfish, and myopic.” Low fertility, rising mental illness, drug deaths, and the cultural rejection of transformative technologies like nuclear energy are not isolated crises. They are symptoms. Robin points toward Futarchy as a solution — a radical reimagining of governance built on prediction markets and the principle of “vote on values, bet on beliefs” — and argues that what civilisation ultimately needs is a sacred goal: something vast enough and serious enough to demand real sacrifice. This is a conversation about evolution, governance, and what it means to build something worth surviving for. 00:00 Introduction to Robin Hanson 01:58 The Journey of Curiosity 06:38 Early Questions and Intellectual Development 09:03 Civilizational Collapse: A Historical Perspective 10:40 Understanding Cultural Evolution 16:44 The Parameters of Cultural Evolution 27:31 The Impact of Globalization on Culture 35:41 The Future of Cultural Evolution 40:24 Egalitarianism and Cultural Evolution 42:34 Navigating Cultural Change 44:51 Global Cooperation vs. Cultural Diversity 45:24 Cultural Adaptiveness and Fitness 48:01 Cultural Drift and Maladaptive Trends 52:26 Reversion vs. Spiral Models in Culture 54:48 Identifying Solutions to Cultural Problems 56:44 Three Levels of Cultural Change 01:01:25 Concrete Solutions for Cultural Trends 01:05:59 Fragmenting Culture and Governance 01:13:38 Adaptive Changes in Shared Culture 01:17:38 Cultural Maladaptation and Mental Health 01:20:18 The Role of Government in Problem Solving 01:20:56 Introducing Futarchy: A New Governance Model 01:28:44 Conditional Markets and Decision Making 01:34:08 Sacred Goals and Civilization’s Future Speakers Rufus Pollock [https://lifeitself.org/people/rufuspollock] is a co-founder of Life Itself, an entrepreneur, activist, an author, as well as a long-term zen practitioner. Robin Hanson [https://substack.com/@wildideaman] is an economist, futurist, and associate professor of economics at George Mason University. He is the author of The Elephant in the Brain and The Age of Em, the inventor of the governance system known as Futarchy, and the founder of the long-running Substack blog Overcoming Bias [https://www.overcomingbias.com/]. About Over the Mountains Over The Mountains by Life Itself is a podcast and blog exploring the understandings and system shifts needed to bring forth a Second Renaissance [https://secondrenaissance.net/], to live within a metamodern reality that works for everyone. The title Over The Mountains is a metaphor for the long and often difficult journey humanity must take together. In a time when many seek shortcuts — especially through technology — this podcast reminds us that those shortcuts can lead to greater destruction. To truly reach the other side, we must climb over the mountain: facing the complexity of collective action, institutional change, and the reimagining of our shared reality. Over the Mountains focuses on the societal, political, economic, and ontological transformations required for such a world to emerge. Featuring conversations with sensemakers and the builders of tomorrow such as Rufus Pollock, Liam Kavanagh, Sylvie Barbier, Jonah Wilberg and many others, this series shares knowledge from sociology, economics, political philosophy, history, neuroscience, and ideological science, making these insights accessible to a wider audience. The ideas that we will share with you set out some of the reasoning and ideas for the creation of Life Itself and the Second Renaissance initiatives. Twitter - https://twitter.com/forlifeitself [https://twitter.com/forlifeitself] Website - https://lifeitself.org [https://lifeitself.org] This is a public episode. If you would like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit overthemountains.substack.com [https://overthemountains.substack.com?utm_medium=podcast&utm_campaign=CTA_1]

Playing With Dynamite: The Ethics of Questioning Monogamy - Rethinking Love Beyond Possession | Over the Mountains #11

In this episode of Over the Mountains, Sylvie and Rufus open up about the intimate side of their relationship as part of a wider exploration of what it means to “walk the talk” of social and cultural transformation. They argue that building a new paradigm is not only about politics, ideas, or collective vision, but also about how we live in our closest relationships. The conversation focuses on one of the major taboo areas that often destabilises relationships and communities: sex. Drawing on their ten years together, marriage, and family life, they reflect on: monogamy, openness, jealousy, trauma, freedom and love. Sylvie shares how monogamy initially gave her a deep sense of safety and healing, especially in light of family wounds around betrayal and abandonment. At the same time, she began to see how exclusivity could also become a kind of prison if it was rooted in fear rather than genuine choice. A central theme of the episode is the tension between rational beliefs and embodied emotional reality. Rather than presenting ethical non-monogamy as a fixed ideology or solution, they describe it as a slow, conscious, messy process of inquiry. They emphasize transparency, consent, dialogue, and responsibility — because wider relationships are also affected by intimate choices. For them, the key issue is not simply monogamy versus non-monogamy, but whether the relationship is rooted in ethics, love and trust. "Am I in this relationship out of fear — or am I in this relationship out of love? Am I here because I'm scared of ending up alone... or because I actually love who we are together?" Ultimately, the episode connects the personal and the political. Sylvie and Rufus suggest that transforming how we relate romantically may also be part of transforming how we relate to power, to each other, and even to the planet. They do not claim to have answers, but offer their relationship as a living experiment: imperfect, vulnerable, and in progress. Rather than a prescriptive “how-to,” this is a raw, real, and refreshingly honest take on the journey of love’s triumph over fear. 00:00 Introduction to a New Paradigm 01:29 Exploring Relationship Dynamics 05:27 Monogamy vs. Polyamory: A Personal Journey 15:21 The Complexity of Love and Possession 19:44 Navigating Personal Shadows and Relationship Patterns 29:04 Navigating Relationships with Mindfulness 31:55 The Complexity of Love and Parenting 35:11 Exploring Self-Identity and Body Image 38:05 The Journey of Dating and Self-Discovery 43:03 Empowerment and Autonomy in Relationships 46:04 Transforming Relationships and Societal Norms 50:18 The Ethical Dimension of Non-Monogamy Speakers Sylvie Barbier [https://lifeitself.org/people/sylvieshiweibarbier] is a co-founder of Life Itself, a performance artist, entrepreneur, and educator. Rufus Pollock [https://lifeitself.org/people/rufuspollock] is a co-founder of Life Itself, an entrepreneur, activist, an author, as well as a long-term zen practitioner. About Over the Mountains Over The Mountains by Life Itself is a podcast and blog exploring the understandings and system shifts needed to bring forth a Second Renaissance [https://secondrenaissance.net/], to live within a metamodern reality that works for everyone. The title Over The Mountains is a metaphor for the long and often difficult journey humanity must take together. In a time when many seek shortcuts — especially through technology — this podcast reminds us that those shortcuts can lead to greater destruction. To truly reach the other side, we must climb over the mountain: facing the complexity of collective action, institutional change, and the reimagining of our shared reality. Over the Mountains focuses on the societal, political, economic, and ontological transformations required for such a world to emerge. Featuring conversations with sensemakers and the builders of tomorrow such as Rufus Pollock, Liam Kavanagh, Sylvie Barbier, Jonah Wilberg and many others, this series shares knowledge from sociology, economics, political philosophy, history, neuroscience, and ideological science, making these insights accessible to a wider audience. The ideas that we will share with you set out some of the reasoning and ideas for the creation of Life Itself and the Second Renaissance initiatives. Twitter - https://twitter.com/forlifeitself [https://twitter.com/forlifeitself] Website - https://lifeitself.org [https://lifeitself.org] This is a public episode. If you would like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit overthemountains.substack.com [https://overthemountains.substack.com?utm_medium=podcast&utm_campaign=CTA_1]