People I (Mostly) Admire

She’s a botanist, a member of the Citizen Potawatomi Nation, and the author of the bestselling Braiding Sweetgrass. In her new book she criticizes the market economy — but she and Steve find a surprising amount of common ground.   * SOURCES: * Robin Wall Kimmerer [https://www.robinwallkimmerer.com/], botanist and founder and director of the Center for Native Peoples and the Environment.   * RESOURCES: * The Serviceberry: Abundance and Reciprocity in the Natural World [https://amzn.to/43FRxt7], by Robin Wall Kimmerer (2024). * Braiding Sweetgrass: Indigenous Wisdom, Scientific Knowledge and the Teachings of Plants [https://amzn.to/3ZPjM5W], by Robin Wall Kimmerer (2015). * Gathering Moss: A Natural and Cultural History of Mosses [https://amzn.to/456Lizz], by Robin Wall Kimmerer (2003). * "The Deadweight Loss of Christmas [https://www.amherst.edu/media/view/104699/original/christmas.pdf]," by Joel Waldfogel (The American Economic Review, 1993). * "Reproductive Ecology of Tetraphis pellucida. I. Population Density and Reproductive Mode [https://www.jstor.org/stable/3243962?origin=crossref]," by Robin Wall Kimmerer (The Bryologist, 1991).   * EXTRAS: * "The Deadliest Disease in Human History [https://freakonomics.com/podcast/the-deadliest-disease-in-human-history/]," by People I (Mostly) Admire (2025). * "How Smart Is a Forest? [https://freakonomics.com/podcast/how-smart-is-a-forest/]" by People I (Mostly) Admire (2023). * "Jane Goodall Changed the Way We See Animals. She’s Not Done. [https://freakonomics.com/podcast/jane-goodall-changed-the-way-we-see-animals-shes-not-done/]" by People I (Mostly) Admire (2022).

Palliative physician B.J. Miller asks: Is there a better way to think about dying? And can death be beautiful?   * SOURCES: * B.J. Miller [https://www.mettlehealth.com/who-we-are], palliative-care physician and President at Mettle Health.   * RESOURCES: * A Beginner’s Guide to the End: Practical Advice for Living Life and Facing Death [https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/1501157213/ref=as_li_qf_asin_il_tl?ie=UTF8&tag=freakonomic08-20&creative=9325&linkCode=as2&creativeASIN=1501157213&linkId=646d8e50eaff4410847d52e37b3a71dd], by Shoshana Berger and B.J. Miller and (2019). * “After A Freak Accident, A Doctor Finds Insight Into ‘Living Life And Facing Death [https://www.npr.org/transcripts/784401787],'” by Fresh Air (W.Y.P.R., 2019). * “Dying In A Hospital Means More Procedures, Tests And Costs [https://www.npr.org/sections/health-shots/2016/06/15/481992191/dying-in-a-hospital-means-more-procedures-tests-and-costs],” by Alison Kodjak (W.Y.P.R., 2016). * “The Final Year: Visualizing End Of Life [https://arcadia.io/final-year-visualizing-end-life/],” by Arcadia (2016). * “What Really Matters at the End of Life [https://www.ted.com/talks/bj_miller_what_really_matters_at_the_end_of_life],” by B.J. Miller (TED, 2015). * “The Flexner Report ― 100 Years Later [https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3178858/],” by Thomas P. Duffy (Yale Journal of Biology and Medicine, 2011). * “My Near Death Panel Experience [https://www.nytimes.com/2009/11/15/opinion/15blumenauer.html],” by Earl Blumenauer (The New York Times, 2009). * The Center for Dying and Living [https://www.thecenterfordyingandliving.org/].   * EXTRAS: * “Max Tegmark on Why Superhuman Artificial Intelligence Won’t be Our Slave (Part 2) [https://link.chtbl.com/klNhrL1Q?sid=FRep488RB],” by People I (Mostly) Admire (2021). * “Max Tegmark on Why Treating Humanity Like a Child Will Save Us All [https://link.chtbl.com/7qya9uzA?sid=FRep488RB],” by People I (Mostly) Admire (2021). * “Amanda & Lily Levitt Share What It’s Like to be Steve’s Daughters [https://link.chtbl.com/rGHUDJvk?sid=FRep488RB],” by People I (Mostly) Admire (2021). * “Edward Glaeser Explains Why Some Cities Thrive While Others Fade Away [https://link.chtbl.com/bTrTo7An?sid=FRep488RB],” by People I (Mostly) Admire (2021). * “Sendhil Mullainathan Explains How to Generate an Idea a Minute (Part 2) [https://link.chtbl.com/qI-1w5HH?sid=FRep488RB],” by People I (Mostly) Admire (2021). * “Sendhil Mullainathan Thinks Messing Around Is the Best Use of Your Time [https://link.chtbl.com/6XJ1nIh6?sid=FRep488RB],” by People I (Mostly) Admire (2021). * “How Does Facing Death Change Your Life? [https://freakonomics.com/podcast/how-does-facing-death-change-your-life/]” by No Stupid Questions (2021). * “How to Be Better at Death [https://freakonomics.com/podcast/how-to-be-better-at-death-ep-450/],” by Freakonomics Radio (2021).

Historian Tom Holland narrowly escaped a career writing vampire novels to become the co-host of the wildly popular podcast The Rest Is History. At Steve’s request, he compares President Trump and Julius Caesar and explains why the culture wars are arguments about Christian theology.   * SOURCES: * Tom Holland [https://www.tom-holland.org/], historian and host of The Rest is History.   * RESOURCES: * Dominion: How the Christian Revolution Remade the World [https://amzn.to/4mAibej], by Tom Holland (2019). * Rubicon [https://amzn.to/438AmQw], by Tom Holland (2005).   * EXTRAS: * Unforgiving Places: The Unexpected Origins of American Gun Violence [https://amzn.to/4jlAVLJ], by Jens Ludwig (2025). * "A Solution to America’s Gun Problem [https://freakonomics.com/podcast/a-solution-to-americas-gun-problem/]," by People I (Mostly) Admire (2025). * "Richard Dawkins on God, Genes, and Murderous Baby Cuckoos [https://freakonomics.com/podcast/richard-dawkins-on-god-genes-and-murderous-baby-cuckoos/]," by People I (Mostly) Admire (2024).

John Green returns to the show to talk about tuberculosis — a disease that kills more than a million people a year. Steve has an idea for a new way to get treatment to those in need.   * SOURCES:  * John Green [https://www.johngreenbooks.com/], best-selling author and YouTube creator.   * RESOURCES:  * Everything Is Tuberculosis: The History and Persistence of Our Deadliest Infection [https://www.amazon.com/Everything-Tuberculosis-Signed-Persistence-Deadliest/dp/0525426051], by John Green (2025). * "The Deadliest Infectious Disease Isn’t a Science Problem. It’s a Money Problem [https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/2024/03/21/tuberculosis-deadliest-curable-disease-tests-john-green/]," by John Green (The Washington Post, 2024). * "The Deadliest Infectious Disease of All Time [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7D-gxaie6UI]," by John Green (Crash Course, 2024). * "Barely Contained Rage: An Open Letter to Johnson & Johnson [https://nerdfighteria.info/v/tSC06P9A5W4]," by John Green (Vlogbrothers, 2023). * "Designing Advance Market Commitments for New Vaccines [https://www.nber.org/system/files/working_papers/w28168/w28168.pdf]," by Michael Kremer, Jonathan D. Levin, and Christopher M. Snyder (NBER, 2020). * "Are CEOs Rewarded for Luck? The Ones Without Principals Are [https://scholar.harvard.edu/files/sendhil/files/are_ceos_rewarded_for_luck_the_ones_without_principals_are.pdf]," by Marianne Bertrand and Sendhil Mullainathan (The Quarterly Journal of Economics, 2001). * "A Further Communication on a Remedy for Tuberculosis [https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC5150491/]," by Robert Koch (The Indian Medical Gazette, 1891).   * EXTRAS:  * "His Brilliant Videos Get Millions of Views. Why Don’t They Make Money? [https://freakonomics.com/podcast/his-brilliant-videos-get-millions-of-views-why-dont-they-make-money/]" by People I (Mostly) Admire (2025). * "Sendhil Mullainathan Thinks Messing Around Is the Best Use of Your Time (Update) [https://freakonomics.com/podcast/update-sendhil-mullainathan-thinks-messing-around-is-the-best-use-of-your-time/]," by People I (Mostly) Admire (2024). * "John Green’s Reluctant Rocket Ship Ride (Update) [https://freakonomics.com/podcast/update-john-greens-reluctant-rocket-ship-ride/]" by People I (Mostly) Admire (2024). * "Rajiv Shah Never Wastes a Crisis [https://freakonomics.com/podcast/rajiv-shah-never-wastes-a-crisis/]," by People I (Mostly) Admire (2024). * "'There’s So Many Problems — Which Ones Can I Make a Difference On?' [https://freakonomics.com/podcast/theres-so-many-problems-which-ones-can-i-make-a-difference-on/]" by People I (Mostly) Admire (2022). * The Anthropocene Reviewed: Essays on a Human-Centered Planet [https://www.amazon.com/Anthropocene-Reviewed-Signed-John-Green/dp/0525555218], by John Green (2021). * The Anthropocene Reviewed [https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/the-anthropocene-reviewed/id1342003491] (podcast). * Nerdfighteria [https://nerdfighteria.com/]. * TBFighters [https://tbfighters.org/].

Abraham Verghese is a physician and a best-selling author — in that order, he says. He explains the difference between curing and healing, and tells Steve why doctors should spend more time with patients and less with electronic health records.   * SOURCES: * Abraham Verghese [https://www.abrahamverghese.org/biography/], professor of medicine at Stanford University and best-selling novelist.   * RESOURCES: * The Covenant of Water [https://amzn.to/3tufQKS], by Abraham Verghese (2023). * “Abraham Verghese’s Sweeping New Fable of Family and Medicine [https://www.nytimes.com/2023/05/02/books/review/covenant-of-water-abraham-verghese.html],” by Andrew Solomon (The New York Times, 2023). * “Watch Oprah’s Emotional Conversation with Abraham Verghese, Author of the 101st Oprah’s Book Club Pick [https://www.oprahdaily.com/entertainment/books/a44547209/the-covenant-of-water-abraham-verghese-interview/]” (Oprah Daily, 2023). * “How Indian Teachers Have Shaped Ethiopia’s Education System [https://www.thequint.com/south-asians/how-indian-teachers-have-shaped-generations-of-ethiopians],” by Mariam Jafri (The Quint, 2023). * “How Tech Can Turn Doctors Into Clerical Workers [https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2018/05/16/magazine/health-issue-what-we-lose-with-data-driven-medicine.html],” by Abraham Verghese (The New York Times Magazine, 2018). * Cutting for Stone [https://amzn.to/3Qbf26k], by Abraham Verghese (2009). * “Culture Shock — Patient as Icon, Icon as Patient [https://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/NEJMp0807461],” by Abraham Verghese (The New England Journal of Medicine, 2008). * “The Cowpath to America [https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/1997/06/23/the-cowpath-to-america],” by Abraham Verghese (The New Yorker, 1997). * My Own Country: A Doctor’s Story [https://amzn.to/3Fclowc], by Abraham Verghese (1994). * “Urbs in Rure: Human Immunodeficiency Virus Infection in Rural Tennessee [https://academic.oup.com/jid/article-abstract/160/6/1051/833577],” by Abraham Verghese, Steven L. Berk, and Felix Sarubbi (The Journal of Infectious Diseases, 1989).   * EXTRAS: * “Are You Suffering From Burnout? [https://freakonomics.com/podcast/are-you-suffering-from-burnout/]” by No Stupid Questions (2023). * “Would You Rather See a Computer or a Doctor? [https://freakonomics.com/podcast/would-you-rather-see-a-computer-or-a-doctor/]” by Freakonomics, M.D. (2022). * “How Do You Cure a Compassion Crisis? [https://freakonomics.com/podcast/how-do-you-cure-a-compassion-crisis-ep-444/]” by Freakonomics Radio (2020). * The Citadel [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Citadel_(novel)], by A. J. Cronin (1937). * Uncle Tom’s Cabin [https://www.britannica.com/topic/Uncle-Toms-Cabin], by Harriet Beecher Stowe (1852).