From First-Gen Student to PA: Dee Schwalm's Unconventional Grad School Journey

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Are you contemplating graduate school or facing doubts about the next step on your academic journey? The latest episode of the Victors in Grad School #podcast is a must-listen for anyone craving a candid, inspiring, and deeply personal look at what it really takes to find success in higher education and beyond. In this episode, host Dr. Christopher Lewis [https://www.linkedin.com/in/drchristopherlewis/] welcomes Dee Schwalm [https://www.linkedin.com/in/deeanneschwalm/], a three-time University of Michigan-Flint [https://www.umflint.edu/] graduate, whose journey exemplifies resilience, adaptability, and dedication. Her story isn't one of a straight line to success but rather a curvy, non-traditional path filled with pivotal moments and conscious choices. Key Themes 1. The Value of a Nonlinear Journey Dee Schwalm opens up about her beginnings as a first-generation college student who hadn't always planned on higher education. Her candid recount of starting at community college, dropping out, and finding her calling after an injury in physical therapy reminds us that success stories often start from moments of uncertainty and unexpected experiences. 2. Embracing Change and Lifelong Learning Not content to rest after earning her Doctorate in Physical Therapy [https://www.umflint.edu/graduateprograms/physical-therapy-entry-level-dpt/], Dee Schwalm returned to the classroom—14 years later—to become a Physician Assistant [https://www.umflint.edu/graduateprograms/physician-assistant-ms/]. Her drive stemmed from a desire to help fill the urgent healthcare gap and her own curiosity about the medical side of patient care. Her advice: it's never too late to make a change if you feel called to something new. 3. Overcoming Imposter Syndrome Both Dr. Christopher Lewis and Dee Schwalm discuss the very real feeling of imposter syndrome that plagues many graduate students. Dee Schwalm shares powerful strategies for tackling self-doubt—suggesting that confronting what triggers these feelings can help you learn and grow. 4. Balancing Family and Ambition For listeners juggling parenthood and academia, this episode is a goldmine of wisdom. Dee Schwalm details how she structured her time, involved her daughters in her educational journey, and used "failures" as teachable moments for her family. Her pragmatic tips on scheduling, grace, and perseverance apply to anyone feeling stretched between multiple commitments. Tune In for Inspiration Whether you're a prospective grad student, a parent returning to school, or anyone doubting your own path, this episode offers a heartfelt dose of encouragement. Dee Schwalm's journey reminds us all: it's not where you start, but how you keep showing up, adapting, and pushing forward that truly counts. Listen to "Victors in Grad School" and let Dee's story ignite your own next step! TRANSCRIPT Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:00:01]: Welcome to Victors in Grad School, where we have conversations with students, alumni, and experts about what it takes to find success in graduate school. Welcome back to Victors in Grad School. I'm your host, Dr. Christopher Lewis, Director of Graduate Programs at the University of Michigan, Flint. Really excited to have you back again this week. You know, every week I love that you show up, you're coming back, you're here to learn, and to be able to take that next step, that next step in your journey toward graduate school. And I say it's a journey because it really is a journey. Every person, every person that's either thinking about graduate school, applying to graduate school, going through graduate school, you are on a journey, a journey of learning, a journey of discovery. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:00:47]: There is a lot of things you're going to be going through, learning, growing, and becoming a different person throughout that experience. That's why this show exists. This show is here to help you on that journey, to help you to find success in the graduate school journey that you're on. No matter if you're a going to physical therapy school, physician assistant school, business school, law school, doesn't matter. There are things that you can do right now to prepare yourself for this journey, to help yourself during the journey and beyond. That's why every week I love being able to bring you different people with different experiences that can give you some perspective, give you some perspective on what this journey holds for you, but also some things that you might be wanting to think about, some things you might be able to put into play as you're going through this experience. And today we got another great guest. Dee Schwalm is with us today. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:01:37]: And Dee is a graduate of the University of Michigan, Flint. She actually has three degrees from the University of Michigan, Flint. And we'll talk about that journey of going from an undergraduate student there to getting a degree in physical therapy. But that wasn't enough. She then came back after about 14 years and to become a physician assistant and just graduated from the physician assistant program at the University of Michigan, Flint as well. So we're going to talk about that journey that she's been been on, and I'm really excited to be able to introduce her to Hugh. Dee, thanks so much for being here today. Dee Schwalm [00:02:11]: Thank you for having me. This is exciting. I was honored to be asked. So this is really exciting. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:02:17]: Well, I'm really excited to have you here today and to talk to you about this journey that you're on. And I guess I want to go back in time. I want to turn the clock Back I said, you did your undergraduate work at the University of Michigan, Flint, and at some point in that journey, that, that journey of getting that Bachelor of Science degree in human biology, you made a decision, you made a decision to go to, to get a doctorate in physical therapy. Bring me back to that moment where you said to yourself, yep, this is the reason, this is what I'm doing. And what was going through your head. Dee Schwalm [00:02:46]: Yeah. So my path has been very curvy and not very traditional. I will say that 100%. I'm going to rewind a little bit. So in high school, I was never the person, I'm a first generation college graduate. I was never the person who definitely planned to go to college. My parents didn't really talk about it. We didn't go visit colleges and do the traditional, traditional things. Dee Schwalm [00:03:09]: They wanted me to have a respectable job that I would be able to take care of myself. So that was important. College wasn't out of the question, but it certainly wasn't something I had to do, which I apparently love to do because I keep going back to college. But so I started after high school. I didn't know if I was going to go. And I got the MEEP Michigan Merit Award Scholarship. And this one counselor at Swartz Creek really encouraged me. I remember her chasing me down the hall and was like, deanne, Deanne, you got the scholarship, you have to go to college. Dee Schwalm [00:03:37]: And I thought, man, this 2,500 doll dollars, which was like a million dollars in 1999. So she said, you can use it for college. And I thought, well, you know, maybe I'll go to Mott College. That's close by. So I went and checked it out. And then my parents went and they checked it out. They thought it was good. And I started in psychology and then I moved to graphic design. Dee Schwalm [00:03:56]: And I was sitting in a room with a computer alone all the time. And that's when I realized I need something with people like, this isn't going to work for me. I can't just be locked away. So I ended up dropping out of school because I was paying for it myself. I was waitressing, I had an apartment. I dropped out of school and it was like maybe two semesters. I ended up hurting my knee one day while I was on a run, end up in physical therapy. And it was probably the fourth or fifth visit of pt and I was looking at this PT buzzing around the room teaching people about science, which happened to be my favorite subject. Dee Schwalm [00:04:27]: She was positive she was uplifting, she was busy. There was exercise. And I thought, oh my gosh, I'm in love. I have to do this. I have to become a physical therapist. So the next week I figured out, how am I going to transfer classes to U of M Flint. I went and checked it out. I'll say for sure. Dee Schwalm [00:04:44]: The counselors were really inviting and made me feel comfortable at U of M Flint because to me, that felt like a huge campus. I wasn't somebody who was used to that. So I started at U of M Flint, got my degree in human biology and just chased down the dream. I got a list from the counselor and the advisors, what do I need to get into the DPT program? And it was a week by week. How am I getting closer to that? How am I getting closer to that? And I applied at U of M. Flint only, which I know in hindsight sounds insane, but that's where I was going to go. That's what it. I just knew. Dee Schwalm [00:05:17]: I just knew that's what it was going to happen. So I ended up in the PT program and it was wonderful. It's been a wonderful career. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:05:24]: You went through this graduate school experience and you about 14 years later decided that you weren't done. And many people at the end of a physical therapy degree would say, I'm good, I'm going to do my career. I'm going to stay doing this for the career because it is a terminal degree. But you said, nope, I want to do something different or I want to add on to the degree. So bring me back to that point and what made you decide that you needed to flip the strip? Dee Schwalm [00:05:54]: It definitely was not something that happened initially. When graduating as a pt, I loved working. I still work as a pt. I work prn. I loved it. I was working in outpatient. I worked in sports med. I worked on the weekends to pay off student loans at nursing homes and subacute rehab. Dee Schwalm [00:06:11]: I mean, I worked, I loved it. I love the career. I mean, where else can you have a career where you enter someone, you enter the room with someone and they trust you? You might be their last resort. They're trusting you to not only make a plan of care with them, try to figure out their goals, what they're trying to get back to, but also trust you to physically carry them, if they fall, move them across the room. I mean, it's a very reward starting career. I would say the transition to PA happened as maybe in the last five years, six years working with PAs, and I was very interested in what they did. I was very interested in the medicine side of it. And I was working at a subacute rehab with patients that were COVID positive. Dee Schwalm [00:06:54]: You know, they had multiple traumas, a motor vehicle accident, different things. And I remember hearing Amy York from PT school, which I have heard her say this over and over. You know, by the year 2030, there's expected to be over 80 million people in the United States over the age of 65. And over the last 14 years, I've heard her give this stat in my head over and over. And it's been like kind of a countdown, like, oh, we're getting closer to 2030. There's all these people that are going to need more health care. Are we ready? Are we ready? And then kind of circling back, going, working in the subacute and with the patients and just seeing that we needed more physicians and clinicians in Michigan. Currently we're 800 clinicians short in Michigan and also approaching this number where we're going to have more baby boomers reaching this age. Dee Schwalm [00:07:40]: I was like, who's going to do this? Who's going to be the family medicine doctors? Oh, man. Well, it's not me because I took my science courses seven plus years ago. They imploded. You can't use them again after seven years. I can't go back to college. Not for me. I wonder who will do that. And I kind of tossed it around in my head and I felt pulled to be a pa. Dee Schwalm [00:07:59]: I wondered, you know, maybe I should do that. And I told my husband about it one night and he was like, look it up. You should do that. Look it up. And I was like, oh, I felt foolish looking it up. And I looked of course at the U of M. Flint website because that's where I go to college. Okay. Dee Schwalm [00:08:13]: Didn't look at any other websites. I know I'm a loyalist. I looked it up and I. I will never forget seeing the seven year science course waiver. When I saw that, I was like, oh, there's a spot for me. It's like emotional. But I saw that and I was like, wow, there's a spot for me. So I just chased it. Dee Schwalm [00:08:28]: It was like that moment on two weeks later, I was taking the only class I needed, which was M Biology. I took it at Mott, which when I walked in, the teacher was like, are you here to audit my class? Like, no, I'm just a student. I'm just old sir. So I went back to Mott two days a week. Was still working as a pt. I was getting my microbiology class out of the way. And I was going to apply to PA School. My boss and PT everybody encouraged me. Dee Schwalm [00:08:50]: They said, do it. They gave me the time off. Everybody thought it was great. I applied. I wrote my entire. Looking back, this is kind of. Kind of wild. But the Caspa. Dee Schwalm [00:09:00]: I wrote the entire thing with U of M Flint written in it because it knew it was the only place I was going to apply. I would not give that advice to a student. But that is my path. And I just chased it down. And before I knew it, here I am, and it's over. Like that. Like a fever dream just went by. Gone. Dee Schwalm [00:09:16]: I guess that sums it up. I don't know. Does that make any sense? Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:09:19]: It does. And, you know, one of the things that I think is interesting is that I think what you say, what you're saying here is that you can go into a career and think it's the perfect one for you, but then as life continues, you continue to be inspired, you continue to be intrigued, and you see other ways in which you can impact the world. Now, you pushed yourself. Not everybody would do that. And you pushed yourself to take that leap. And I applaud you for that. Because I think, like I said, not everybody would do that. Sometimes we get complacent, and we're like, we're okay. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:09:53]: I'm good. But you kind of said to yourself, I want to be better, and I want to impact the world in a different way. And I applaud you for that. Dee Schwalm [00:10:00]: Through this process, I've had some people ask me, and I just really want to, like, make sure I clarify it while I'm here. Well, oh, you left PT because you didn't like it, or it wasn't a good job or you couldn't find a job. You can find a job in PT. You can find a job in 15 minutes in PT. I mean, they are needing people. I felt kind of bad leaving the world of PT because that's needed, too. It's an excellent career. It's a rewarding job. Dee Schwalm [00:10:22]: There's a. A lot of versatility. I just felt like it was kind of hard to come to terms with, but I was like, no, I'm not turning my back on pt. I'm not leaving pt. I'm taking it with me. I'm going to use everything I learned as a PT still and help patients. So I just really felt like it was important because some people, I think, along the way were confused, like, oh, you'd rather be a pa? I'm like, no, I'm also a pa. And both things so that's really exciting. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:10:45]: Now, one of the things that I think that I'm interested in asking about is this, is that every time that you transition into a new type of education, there's new expectations, there's new ways of learning. And you went from your undergraduate degree into physical therapy. That's one transition where you have to make that transition from being an undergraduate student to a physical therapy student. And then, as I said, you go, you work. Fourteen years later, you're transitioning back to school and being educated in another new way into becoming a physician assistant. So talk to me about in those transitions, those transitions from your Bachelor's to pt, from PT to work and then back to pa, what are some of the things that you had to do at the beginning to set yourself up for success? And what are some of the things that you had to do throughout the entire journey to maintain that success, throughout the entire experience? Dee Schwalm [00:11:45]: I would say when you are leaving undergrad and entering a graduate program, there are portions of undergrad that can be rogue memorization. You can, in a way, from high school and some of undergrad, be trained and memorize, regurgitate the information and repeat. And I realized once I got into the PT program, I was a good student in undergrad, I got good grades, you know, But I realized now, oh, I'm in a graduate program. It's about understanding the information on a 360 degree axis. You have to know everything about this information. There is no more memorization. It's dancing with this information, becoming familiar with it, and also being able to teach it to someone else to ensure that you actually understand the information. So that was something I learned going into graduate school the first time. Dee Schwalm [00:12:39]: I also learned that, you know, a graduate program, the DPT program, it's consuming. Don't make plans, okay? You're going to be busy. You are busy from the very beginning to the very end. And I think I was kind of ready for that in my mindset going back to school. I mean, there was some things that were different in PT school. Get your Scantron and take your test now. Everything's on the computer. I don't use social media. Dee Schwalm [00:13:03]: I have a LinkedIn finally. You know, I haven't used social media since 2012. I just kind of stepped away from it. So I was behind. I didn't know how to navigate these new learning platforms. And I just totally was honest and told other students, I have no idea how to do this. Would one of you be willing to help me? I will buy you lunch. I will do Anything, I'll stay after. Dee Schwalm [00:13:25]: And Rachel Bauer took me under her wing and taught me how to use my computer. You know, all I was using it for was PT programs to write my notes at work, search articles on PubMed. I wasn't using it like these students who grew up through Covid and their undergrad using their computer. So that was a big adjustment, I'd say. When I got to the PA program, I would tell somebody going into grad school, treat it like boot camp. You are going to give this 100%, expect it to take all of your free time. If you get any extra free time, you should be joyful about that. I really treated it like this is my full time job. Dee Schwalm [00:13:58]: Of course, when I got home, I was mom, so I was full time job all over again. But just really understanding that this is not going to be easy. You have the spot. This is your shot. Give it 100%. Someone else wanted your seat. Someone else worked really hard for your seat. So they could be there and just take advantage of the opportunity and just really focus. Dee Schwalm [00:14:20]: You need to set a schedule. That was really hard for me as a mom because while I was with my family, my husband and my children, my two daughters, I felt like, oh no, I should be studying all this material. I should be studying in the first month. I did not have this figured out at all. I was feeling guilt there. And then I'd go to school or be studying and feel like I should be with my family. Oh no. And so I was realizing, like, I can't focus in either place. Dee Schwalm [00:14:43]: If I set a schedule, it gives me freedom. So while I'm in each place, I give a hundred percent at each place. And I would set it down to the hour sometimes. And my girls knew. Oh, they'd come in, it's 6:30, we're gonna eat dinner. Then you're gonna study for 45 minutes and then we're gonna play Barbies for 30 minutes. I mean, they knew, knew. They knew what's happening. Dee Schwalm [00:15:01]: So setting a schedule, that is huge. Giving yourself grace, even the best students, which I'm not. You're gonna fail at something, you're gonna mess up in grad school and you're gonna sit in your chair and go, oh, no, they accidentally let me in. This spot was meant for someone else. Oh, I'm country mouse in the city. What am I doing here? And it's not true. They know what they're doing. They know why they chose you. Dee Schwalm [00:15:24]: They saw potential in you. And you just have to trust the process. That's what they always told us. Trust the process. You know, take it week by week. I'm going full mom on you guys right now. Mom advice. Take it week by week. Dee Schwalm [00:15:37]: Make a schedule, Give yourself some grace and just really just keep at it. Try to exercise, try to eat nutritious foods. Be positive. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:15:46]: Now, I said, you just completed your PA Degree. Now that you've completed your degree, how do you feel that the graduate degree has prepared you for the next steps that you're about to embark upon? Dee Schwalm [00:15:58]: So starting the program, I had this thought, like, am I really going to be able to do this? Am I really going to be able to do this and do it well? It's not that long of a time, you know, the didactic portion, and then there's like a year of clinicals. Are they going to really be able to transform me even with my clinical experience? So, I mean, I can't imagine how somebody who's 24, I just think they're amazing. These young people going into grad school, they're superheroes. Watching them transform has been so amazing. But the U of M Flint PA program, you have a rigorous didactic portion where you are learning a lot and they're making sure you understand the information. You're not left hanging out to dry. You're meeting with your advisor twice a semester or more. That's just the baseline. Dee Schwalm [00:16:44]: And then when you have your clinicals, I feel really prepared because they were in all kinds of settings. You know, I had two family medicine, one month each. So two months of family medicine. I had two months of internal medicine. I was at a level one trauma at Corwell Grand Rapids. I said, hey, I'll go over there. It's only an hour, 10 minutes. Like, let's go. Dee Schwalm [00:17:02]: I loved that. I got a clinical at the Behavioral Health Urgent Care in Flint. I had women's health. I had pediatrics at Mott Children's Health center in Flint. That was a great experience. I worked in neurosurgery at Hurley Hospital. I mean, I was doing a craniectomy, and I thought, who am I right now? This, like, helping? Of course I wasn't doing it. But they prepare you. Dee Schwalm [00:17:24]: You have to trust the process and know that when you get to the finish line, you're going to feel confident, you're going to feel ready, and you really could go into any area and learn and grow. You know, it's just great. It's. I feel prepared, I feel excited. For me, it's family medicine and internal medicine that really, I'm the most excited about. And I just want to first take a nap and then I want to start now. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:17:48]: Talk to me about you transitioned from one professional career into now another. And as you said, you're building upon the one to the next. And as you go through these type of programs, whether it be physical therapy, physician assistant, they are rigorous programs. Both of these programs are full time programs. You're putting yourself out there, you're jumping in with both feet and you get pushed from day one. And there are definitely times in programs like these, but also any graduate program where you may feel some imposter syndrome, you may, like you just said, say, I don't know if I can do this. Talk to me about that. As you transition from being a physical therapist to jumping back in as a student, to becoming a physician assistant. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:18:31]: Did you ever face imposter syndrome or self doubt during either graduate studies? And how did you handle it? Dee Schwalm [00:18:37]: I absolutely did. And I think every student does and will and maybe should feel imposter syndrome. Maybe it keeps you honest, maybe it keeps you hard working. Maybe I felt it. And I think when you come face to face with imposter syndrome, you have a couple decisions you can make. What am I going to do about it? I just going to shrink down and shrink away from this, this, and I don't like the way this feels, so I'm just not going to move forward with this. Or are you going to say, what is it that is making me feel imposter syndrome? Is it because I don't actually know the material? Maybe I know it, but I don't know how to explain it. So I think I don't know it and really take a step back and think, why do I have this feeling? And then try to crush it. Dee Schwalm [00:19:18]: Try to learn more, practice more. I honestly felt it was strange going back to school because I was older than some of my professors, those young ladies. I didn't really feel at first a connection with the students and I didn't really feel I was at the level of the professors, obviously. So I was just kind of my own little Switzerland. And that made me feel an imposter syndrome almost everywhere I went, like, I'm not one of you and I'm not one of you. But then like the first week I decided this is my spot, this is for me, this is my path. And I'm not gonna spend time and energy feeling this way. I am here to learn just like everyone else. Dee Schwalm [00:19:54]: There was some internal pressure. The professors never put pressure on me to know more than anyone else or Single out. Like, it wasn't like that. I was just one of the group, which I really appreciated because I really needed that. I would say I felt the internal pressure that, am I going to be expected to know everything? Am I going to be expected to know everything faster? Am I supposed to catch on to this right away? And that really wasn't the case. They gave me the same opportunity to learn as everyone else. And that really helped. Once I realized that, it kind of helped me crush that. Dee Schwalm [00:20:29]: That imposter syndrome feeling. And then also just realizing, like, this is my spot. It doesn't matter what anybody thinks about this. Oh, if they think it's strange or it was just really, this is my spot, and I'm going to take it. I'm going to chase this down. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:20:42]: And some graduate students like yourself are going through graduate school while they're balancing being a parent. They have young families. They're trying to better themselves while they're also being mom, dad, et cetera. I know you have two young daughters yourself, and you were going through that PA program while you were being mom, and you talked about that a little bit. Talk to me about the message you're trying to share with your kids about following your passions and your. And your dreams. And how do you talk to them about that? Dee Schwalm [00:21:14]: Well, they were totally supportive of me going back to school. My husband was totally supportive, which I feel very lucky. At first, when I was starting the program, I didn't realize. I mean, I always talked about it with him, but I'd say involving them in it made it more special for them. Every time after a test, it was, it's test day. You know, Mom's gonna study even more over the next week, but we're all gonna celebrate on Friday. And I remember, like, the first month, like, if I didn't do well on a test, I almost felt like I was letting them down. And I remember not telling him one time, like, oh, my gosh, I didn't do as well on this test as I thought I was gonna do. Dee Schwalm [00:21:52]: And they saw me studying, would they then be, like, discouraged? And I don't know when it clicked, but I thought, no, I want to teach them how to be successful and work hard, but I also want to teach them what it's like when you fall on your face. And so I told them that didn't work out. And so you get to watch how I'm going to behave when something doesn't work out. Do I give up? Do I keep going? Do I work harder? Do I give myself some Grace and thinking about how they were watching me made me be more positive because it's wiring them for how do I respond when I don't succeed and I don't know what path they'll choose. Maybe they'll choose college, maybe they won't, I don't know. But I want them, whatever they do, to be able to fall on their face and go, that's all right, I got a lot left and get right back up. So that was important to me. That was huge. Dee Schwalm [00:22:39]: And just involving them and you know, okay, it's the end of the semester, we're going to save up and go to a hotel for a night or two and just try to reward them because they make sacrifices to too. Even though they weren't saying it, they were making sacrifices. Even though I'm sitting next to him on the couch studying with my headphones on, I'm still not as engaging as I would have been if I had him off. So I understood that would try to make time for him and go for walks and how was your day? I read this thing, the 21 minute rule where you're supposed to try to do seven minutes of quality time in the morning and afternoon and evening with your children and just look at them and just listen. And I think just trying to be engaging with them and keep them involved in your, your, in your path of grad school will make everybody in the family feel like they achieved something. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:23:26]: And as you think back to either of the graduate school experiences that you've gone through, what's one thing that you wish that someone had told you before you started either physical therapy or before you started the PA program? Dee Schwalm [00:23:41]: That it was a good idea that, that I was going to pray every day because I did. So that was very helpful. I wish somebody would have told me that because that was a huge help for me. I don't know that I would have been successful without prayer. I think. I don't know if there's something specific someone can tell you, just that it's going to be time consuming. But it will, it will pass and it will go by quickly. Even though it feels some weeks like it's dragging out, it will go by quickly. Dee Schwalm [00:24:12]: You know, you will get to the finish line and even though you don't feel prepared by the time you get to the finish line, you will. You have to just trust that you're going to continue growing, not going to walk in and be the boss. You're not going to walk in and be a pt. You're not going to walk in and be a pa. I'm not going to walk into my new job and be great at it. I need to find somewhere where they can teach me and I can learn. And that's just, just be okay with that. Be okay with that. Dee Schwalm [00:24:40]: I think that's. I wish somebody would have told Young D that before she got into PT school the first time. So. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:24:49]: And as you look back to your graduate education and you think of others that are thinking about going to graduate school, whether it be in the sciences, in business, in some other area, what are some tips that you might offer others considering graduate education that would help them find success sooner? Dee Schwalm [00:25:08]: Are you focused? Do you have a written out, bulleted list? What are you going to do to get towards this goal this week, this month? And I love to cross off a list. I might write make the list so I can cross off, make the list, make a list, write it out, Keep focused. Because you could easily get lost in time and months go by and you haven't moved forward. Everything might not work out just as you planned. And it might send you in a different direction. You might not get into the graduate program that you wanted to, but maybe that opens another door. You just have to keep your mind open and keep working towards your own success. And you're the only person who writes your story. Dee Schwalm [00:25:47]: It doesn't matter where you're from. It doesn't matter if your family went to college. It doesn't matter what your past was. You know, if you want to write your story and you want college in it, then chase after it. Then make it happen. Find a way, change jobs, keep working at it until you find a way. Because it's probably your calling. It's probably what you're supposed to do. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:26:07]: Well, Dee, I just want to say thank you. Thank you so much for sharing your journey today. And I know it's not done. It'd be interesting to see where you land here after you get that next position. I know you just passed your boards. Congratulations. And I'm really excited to be able to see what the future has in store for you. But I really, truly appreciate your time and I wish you the best. Dee Schwalm [00:26:31]: Thank you so much. Thank you for having me. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:26:33]: The University of Michigan Flint has a full array of master's and doctorate programs. If you are interested in continuing your education. Whether you're looking for in person or online learning options, the University of Michigan Flint has programs that will meet your needs. For more information on any of our graduate programs, Visit umflint.edu/graduateprograms [https://umflint.edu/graduateprograms] to find out more. Thanks again for spending time with me as you prepare to do be a Victor in Grad school. I look forward to speaking with you again soon as we embark together on your graduate school journey. If you have any questions or want to reach out, email me at Flintgradoffice@umflint.Edu [Flintgradoffice@umflint.Edu].

From Engineering to Physical Therapy: Max's Journey

For many students, the decision to pursue graduate school is not a straight path. It is a journey filled with uncertainty, exploration, self-discovery, and growth. In this episode of the podcast, listeners meet Maxwell Camara [https://www.linkedin.com/in/maxcamara11/], whose story perfectly captures what it means to embrace the process of finding your purpose. Max's journey did not begin in physical therapy [https://www.umflint.edu/graduateprograms/physical-therapy-entry-level-dpt/]. In fact, he originally started in engineering before eventually transitioning into kinesiology and discovering a passion for helping others heal through movement and rehabilitation. One of the strongest themes throughout this conversation is that it is okay not to have everything figured out right away. Max openly shares that even after applying to physical therapy school, he still was not completely certain it was the right fit. It was not until he became immersed in clinical experiences and hands-on patient care that he truly found confidence in his path. Another key theme in the episode is the power of experiential learning. Max discusses how opportunities like the HEART Clinic [https://www.umflint.edu/heart/] at the University of Michigan-Flint [https://www.umflint.edu/graduateprograms/physical-therapy-entry-level-dpt/] helped shape his professional identity. Through direct patient interaction, leadership experiences, mentoring younger students, and even participating in research projects involving wearable technology, he was able to connect classroom knowledge to real-world impact. His experiences demonstrate that graduate school is about far more than lectures and exams—it is about applying what you learn to make a difference in people's lives. The conversation also dives deeply into balance and resilience. Max speaks honestly about the challenges of transitioning from undergraduate coursework to the demands of doctoral-level education. He explains how treating graduate school like a full-time job, developing consistent routines, prioritizing exercise, and building a strong support system helped him maintain both academic success and personal well-being. His reflections on imposter syndrome are especially relatable, reminding listeners that self-doubt is common, but growth often happens when you push beyond your comfort zone. For anyone considering graduate school, this episode offers practical advice and encouragement. Max emphasizes the importance of getting involved early, talking to professionals in the field, exploring hands-on opportunities, and truly understanding the profession before committing to a graduate program. Whether you are considering physical therapy, another healthcare field, or graduate education in general, this episode is packed with authentic insights that will help you think more intentionally about your future. Max's story is a reminder that success is not always about having all the answers from the beginning—it is about being willing to learn, adapt, and keep moving forward. TRANSCRIPT 1 00:00:03.310 --> 00:00:18.379 Christopher Lewis: Welcome back to Victors in Grad School. I'm your host, Dr. Christopher Lewis, Director of Graduate Programs at the University of Michigan, Flint. Really excited to have you back again this week. As always, every week, I love being able to have an opportunity to talk with you every week. 2 00:00:18.520 --> 00:00:23.449 Christopher Lewis: on this journey that you're on. And I call it a journey because it truly is a journey. 3 00:00:23.750 --> 00:00:30.120 Christopher Lewis: Whether you're at the very beginning, just starting to think about, is grad school right for me? Or maybe you've… 4 00:00:30.560 --> 00:00:37.740 Christopher Lewis: decided, yep, I'm applying, or maybe you did apply, it got accepted, maybe you're in graduate school. No matter where you are. 5 00:00:37.940 --> 00:00:40.050 Christopher Lewis: You are truly on a journey. 6 00:00:40.450 --> 00:00:47.830 Christopher Lewis: And as you're going through this journey, there are things that you can do to be able to find success in that journey that you're on. 7 00:00:47.980 --> 00:01:02.529 Christopher Lewis: And that's why this podcast exists. Every week, I love being able to have this conversation with you, to walk with you, to provide you with some tips and tricks and things that you can put into that toolbox that you bring with you everywhere. 8 00:01:03.210 --> 00:01:07.099 Christopher Lewis: That's why every week I also love being able to introduce you to new people. 9 00:01:07.380 --> 00:01:20.450 Christopher Lewis: New people with different experiences that have all gone through what you're going through, and can provide you with some perspective, some things for you to think about, and maybe some things to implement for yourself. 10 00:01:21.410 --> 00:01:23.589 Christopher Lewis: Today we've got another great guest. 11 00:01:24.170 --> 00:01:26.190 Christopher Lewis: Today, we've got another great guest. 12 00:01:26.780 --> 00:01:29.190 Christopher Lewis: Is it Max or Maxwell? Which would… what do you go by? 13 00:01:29.360 --> 00:01:30.359 Maxwell Camara: Max is good. 14 00:01:32.650 --> 00:01:36.910 Christopher Lewis: Today, we've got another great guest. Max Kamara is with us today. 15 00:01:37.130 --> 00:01:39.230 Christopher Lewis: Max is a… 16 00:01:40.210 --> 00:01:58.709 Christopher Lewis: Max is just finishing up his second year in the physical therapy program at the University of Michigan, Flint, working into his third year, gonna be finishing off this year. I'm really excited to be able to talk with him about the journey that he's been on, and to share that with you. Max, thanks so much for being here today. 17 00:01:59.100 --> 00:02:00.220 Maxwell Camara: Thank you for having me. 18 00:02:01.670 --> 00:02:13.849 Christopher Lewis: So, Max, one of the things that I love doing as we start these conversations is really turning the clock back in time. And I know you did your undergraduate work at the University of Michigan, and at some point in that journey. 19 00:02:13.850 --> 00:02:23.960 Christopher Lewis: you made the decision. You made the decision that you wanted to go further, you wanted to continue your education, and you wanted to become a physical therapist. Bring it back to that point, and what was going through your head? 20 00:02:24.330 --> 00:02:25.300 Maxwell Camara: Sure. 21 00:02:25.730 --> 00:02:36.020 Maxwell Camara: So actually, before I was a student at U of M Ann Arbor, I was a student at the University of Colorado my freshman year, and I studied engineering. 22 00:02:36.160 --> 00:02:40.730 Maxwell Camara: So, physical therapy was definitely not on the radar for quite some time. 23 00:02:41.080 --> 00:02:59.470 Maxwell Camara: So I think for me deciding to go to physical therapy school, a graduate school, it really was more of a slow burn, more of a process, and that really started once I was in Ann Arbor. So, once COVID had happened in 2020, I moved back to Michigan, so I went back to Michigan. 24 00:02:59.660 --> 00:03:10.739 Maxwell Camara: to finish out my school, I went into kinesiology knowing that I really enjoyed exercise, I had some good mentors, that taught me about the great things the body can do on its own to heal. 25 00:03:11.210 --> 00:03:18.059 Maxwell Camara: So… Physical therapy was one of those options, so I ended up joining the pre-PT club. 26 00:03:18.690 --> 00:03:31.689 Maxwell Camara: I was in that for a year, and then I became the service member, so I talked with a lot of the employers around the area, a lot of PTs, in Michigan, and then I eventually became the president of that club. 27 00:03:32.130 --> 00:03:33.909 Maxwell Camara: Interestingly, I would say. 28 00:03:34.190 --> 00:03:43.090 Maxwell Camara: even at that point, I was still pretty unsure if physical therapy was something I wanted to do, especially after finding more and more about it, so… 29 00:03:43.420 --> 00:03:52.019 Maxwell Camara: I think as we go through the conversation, maybe we can talk more about, you know, who should choose graduate school, maybe PT school specifically. 30 00:03:52.240 --> 00:03:58.700 Maxwell Camara: But I ended up choosing it because I really love the exercise component, I wanted more out of, 31 00:03:58.860 --> 00:04:08.760 Maxwell Camara: my knowledge base, rather than just being, you know, a personal trainer or an exercise physiologist, I really saw value in helping people heal from these really 32 00:04:08.880 --> 00:04:12.189 Maxwell Camara: Bad, severe conditions, 33 00:04:12.510 --> 00:04:18.640 Maxwell Camara: And then I end up applying, and here we are today, almost done graduating in a couple months here, so… 34 00:04:21.720 --> 00:04:26.800 Christopher Lewis: Did I… did I mess up? Are you already in your third year? Didn't I said you were finishing your second? 35 00:04:27.590 --> 00:04:29.150 Maxwell Camara: I am in my third year, yes. 36 00:04:29.840 --> 00:04:30.570 Maxwell Camara: Okay. 37 00:04:30.720 --> 00:04:38.719 Christopher Lewis: So, I'm gonna… I'm gonna have to go back and post, and I'll fix that. So, let me just… I'm gonna say something right now that I'm going to then… 38 00:04:39.350 --> 00:04:40.779 Christopher Lewis: put back. So… 39 00:04:42.210 --> 00:04:55.559 Christopher Lewis: Max is in his third year of physical therapy school at the University of Michigan, Flint, almost there, almost at the end, and gonna be graduating before we know it, and I'm really excited to be able to have him here, and to have him share his journey with you. 40 00:04:58.050 --> 00:05:08.420 Christopher Lewis: So, Max, one of the things you just said was that you didn't know. You didn't know whether or not physical therapy was really the right place for you. You started in engineering, very different path. 41 00:05:09.000 --> 00:05:14.890 Christopher Lewis: Very different types of courses that you have to take, different way of thinking in that regard as well. 42 00:05:15.680 --> 00:05:19.889 Christopher Lewis: So talk to me about… journey for yourself. And… 43 00:05:20.330 --> 00:05:26.009 Christopher Lewis: You mentioned the fact that you really liked some of the sports aspect and the healing aspects. 44 00:05:26.190 --> 00:05:30.530 Christopher Lewis: But what was the tipping point for you, where you said to yourself, Yep. 45 00:05:30.660 --> 00:05:33.950 Christopher Lewis: I'm going to grad school, I'm doing physical therapy, versus… 46 00:05:34.300 --> 00:05:38.199 Christopher Lewis: I'm gonna finish at the Bachelor's, and I'm gonna go and do something else. 47 00:05:40.320 --> 00:05:45.749 Maxwell Camara: I think the tipping point… I decided that if I was gonna do it. 48 00:05:45.850 --> 00:05:47.390 Maxwell Camara: I was gonna do it now. 49 00:05:47.840 --> 00:05:56.610 Maxwell Camara: And I still, at that point, wasn't sure if it was the right decision. I wouldn't say I knew it was the right decision until probably about… 50 00:05:56.870 --> 00:06:08.189 Maxwell Camara: I would say, like, a year ago, so my second year of physical therapy school, once I had really started to get more involved in our pro bono clinic and finished my first clinical, was when I really knew 51 00:06:08.570 --> 00:06:09.460 Maxwell Camara: So… 52 00:06:09.940 --> 00:06:20.379 Maxwell Camara: that tipping point, I don't… I wouldn't say it was necessarily, you know, I knew in undergrad that I was gonna be a physical therapist. I knew that I was gonna give it a try and, you know. 53 00:06:21.130 --> 00:06:24.709 Maxwell Camara: I was gonna give it a try and be my best at it, no matter what I did. 54 00:06:25.290 --> 00:06:31.480 Maxwell Camara: But I knew I had this theoretical framework of what PT could, like, look like for me. 55 00:06:31.650 --> 00:06:43.250 Maxwell Camara: I had really dove into what PT was through the club, talking to a bunch of different schools and therapists, so I had a pretty good idea of what PT could be. 56 00:06:43.360 --> 00:06:47.350 Maxwell Camara: But I still wouldn't say I was… I'm 100% sure. 57 00:06:47.600 --> 00:06:53.790 Maxwell Camara: that PT was the right direction until I was actually in PT school, like, a couple years later. 58 00:06:55.480 --> 00:07:01.049 Christopher Lewis: Now, I know that as you did decide to apply to graduate school. 59 00:07:01.260 --> 00:07:04.930 Christopher Lewis: I'm sure that you went through your own process of trying to figure out 60 00:07:05.210 --> 00:07:19.070 Christopher Lewis: what's the right program, what's the right fit, and where do I want to be? And with physical therapy being as competitive as it is, I'm sure you applied to numerous schools to be able to cover your bases and try to determine 61 00:07:19.520 --> 00:07:21.479 Christopher Lewis: Ultimately, where you would end up. 62 00:07:22.030 --> 00:07:25.240 Christopher Lewis: Now, you ended up coming to the University of Michigan, Flint. 63 00:07:25.480 --> 00:07:36.910 Christopher Lewis: And I guess I want to go back to that point. Talk to me about that final decision process for yourself, and how did you decide that the University of Michigan Flint was the right program for you? 64 00:07:38.020 --> 00:07:44.460 Maxwell Camara: Yeah, so when I was applying, I applied to, I think, 6 schools, U of M Flint being one of them. 65 00:07:44.580 --> 00:07:55.709 Maxwell Camara: Obviously I was biased towards U of M Flint, because it had the U of M name. But I also applied to, I believe, 3 or 4 other schools in Michigan, and then 2 out of state. 66 00:07:56.140 --> 00:07:59.359 Maxwell Camara: So… I think that gave me more… 67 00:07:59.640 --> 00:08:12.479 Maxwell Camara: options to consider, as I was applying and just receiving, decisions through, I think it was December, so you apply around July, August, then you usually know where you're going by December. 68 00:08:12.860 --> 00:08:17.400 Maxwell Camara: So… What I was really looking for was a place where I… 69 00:08:17.500 --> 00:08:20.049 Maxwell Camara: I enjoyed the people that were there. 70 00:08:20.210 --> 00:08:22.629 Maxwell Camara: And then I thought I could… 71 00:08:22.810 --> 00:08:27.060 Maxwell Camara: Really thrive in terms of… there were a lot of hands-on opportunities. 72 00:08:27.480 --> 00:08:44.759 Maxwell Camara: So U of M Flint checked off both those boxes, and when I received the decision, they gave me a call. It was actually one of my mentors, that I ended up working with through my second and third year, and she… she kind of sealed the deal. I didn't receive any sort of call or, like, any sort of… 73 00:08:44.860 --> 00:08:50.310 Maxwell Camara: I would say personalized message from any other school. So that kind of really is what sold me. 74 00:08:50.500 --> 00:08:53.440 Maxwell Camara: And then I also was able to visit, 75 00:08:53.630 --> 00:09:05.429 Maxwell Camara: with one of the students that was there at the time, and she kind of took me through the school, introduced me to everybody, I got to meet a lot of the students and actually talk to them. So I think that's what really… 76 00:09:05.550 --> 00:09:07.350 Maxwell Camara: Made the decision easier. 77 00:09:07.800 --> 00:09:13.489 Maxwell Camara: And then I also considered other things, like the location, so I could live at home and save money. 78 00:09:13.780 --> 00:09:18.170 Maxwell Camara: I considered things like the cost. It was one of the cheapest in the state. 79 00:09:18.400 --> 00:09:22.839 Maxwell Camara: And then I could also be more hands-on, so they had a really robust 80 00:09:23.100 --> 00:09:34.250 Maxwell Camara: clinical experience within the school that you could work at every Friday, which is something that I end up really taking advantage of, and I think has helped me be very successful in PT school. 81 00:09:35.440 --> 00:09:48.289 Christopher Lewis: Now, you just talked about the hands-on experience, and you were talking about… we have a clinic called HEART, for those of you that don't know, and it is a pro bono clinic that is run by students, with faculty. 82 00:09:48.420 --> 00:10:00.110 Christopher Lewis: being there as well. Talk to me about that experience for yourself, and why was it so important for you to get involved with it, and why did you continue to stay involved with it throughout your experience at the University of Michigan-Flint? 83 00:10:00.770 --> 00:10:14.420 Maxwell Camara: Yeah, so I think a lot of students might take… take it for granted, that we have this clinic that has around 40 patients every week that we treat, and that's every week, so a lot of schools, I think, around half. 84 00:10:14.520 --> 00:10:21.510 Maxwell Camara: have some sort of clinic that they can work with, but it's not nearly as robust, it's not… it's not weekly, usually. 85 00:10:21.670 --> 00:10:37.939 Maxwell Camara: So we really have this cool opportunity to work with patients. And I really got involved, I think it was my first couple weeks, in something called Move More Walking. I just kind of went as that, you know, new student trying to figure out what was happening. A lot was happening, there's a lot of patients, there's paperwork, there's… 86 00:10:38.210 --> 00:10:49.109 Maxwell Camara: you know, you're working in groups with these patients with hard conditions to deal with, so most of them had strokes or traumatic brain injuries, spinal cord injuries, and you're trying to figure out what's happening, how can I even help? 87 00:10:49.580 --> 00:10:58.969 Maxwell Camara: So, eventually by… I believe it was my second or third semester, I talked to Dr. Amy York about potentially becoming a leader of that clinic. 88 00:10:59.440 --> 00:11:00.650 Maxwell Camara: So I went… 89 00:11:01.050 --> 00:11:07.519 Maxwell Camara: most of the weeks to… to that class to help these patients out. I really got close to a couple of them. 90 00:11:07.680 --> 00:11:11.540 Maxwell Camara: So I decided to take on more of that leadership position. 91 00:11:11.770 --> 00:11:20.599 Maxwell Camara: So I worked with two other guys in my class to help lead this part of the clinic, and we… we really got to dive deep into how the… 92 00:11:20.710 --> 00:11:34.590 Maxwell Camara: the treatment works, so how do we standardize the treatment for every patient with new students coming in? So whether it's first year or second years, how can we maximize both the student experience and the patient experience? So that was something we worked on. 93 00:11:35.100 --> 00:11:45.930 Maxwell Camara: We also worked on a documentation system that was really easy to use, but also it was helpful in determining what was good for the following week for all the new students. 94 00:11:46.030 --> 00:11:48.809 Maxwell Camara: And then we also worked on research projects, so… 95 00:11:49.070 --> 00:11:50.670 Maxwell Camara: one of the ones that I… 96 00:11:50.880 --> 00:12:09.740 Maxwell Camara: lead was called Active Hearts, so we gave all of our stroke patients active, wearable technology, so things like Fitbits or Apple Watches they could wear outside of the clinic. So we could really track and maximize our outcomes with our patients trying to get better. 97 00:12:10.040 --> 00:12:18.689 Maxwell Camara: So, a lot of research I was doing, something I never considered doing, something I probably would have said I didn't want to do at the beginning of PT school. 98 00:12:18.760 --> 00:12:36.400 Maxwell Camara: But it really opened a lot of doors in terms of meeting people, working on these really cool projects, traveling, presenting, working and mentoring the younger students. And I think that's what really has helped me grow into the PT that I'll become in, like, 14 weeks from now. 99 00:12:39.230 --> 00:12:58.650 Christopher Lewis: So, Max, I know that as you go into graduate school, whether it's physical therapy, business, whatever it might be, there's a transition that you make. There's a transition from undergrad and the way that you're taught in your undergraduate experience, and what you experience as a student in graduate school. And you've been able to find success in that journey. 100 00:12:58.940 --> 00:13:06.359 Christopher Lewis: Talk to me about… The things that you had to do as you were transitioning into graduate school. 101 00:13:07.200 --> 00:13:14.410 Christopher Lewis: That helped you find success. But also, what did you have to do to maintain that success throughout your entire graduate school journey? 102 00:13:15.660 --> 00:13:25.059 Maxwell Camara: I would say it's definitely a transition from undergrad to graduate school, especially as you're trying to get a doctoral degree. And in undergrad, I was able to… 103 00:13:25.250 --> 00:13:29.869 Maxwell Camara: Kind of passed by my classes studying, you know, in the last two weeks before an exam. 104 00:13:30.010 --> 00:13:31.960 Maxwell Camara: That does not work in PT school. 105 00:13:33.040 --> 00:13:41.090 Maxwell Camara: So I definitely had to transition into thinking more, you know, it's something you have to do weekly, almost every day, reviewing your stuff. 106 00:13:41.200 --> 00:13:43.450 Maxwell Camara: Trying to be ready for the next day. 107 00:13:43.660 --> 00:13:45.410 Maxwell Camara: So, in terms of… 108 00:13:46.010 --> 00:13:52.160 Maxwell Camara: either studying, or homework or projects, I said I would treat it more as a full-time job. 109 00:13:52.350 --> 00:14:00.510 Maxwell Camara: So 40 hours a week, so around half that would be classes, and then the other half would be preparing for the next day, preparing for the week. 110 00:14:00.920 --> 00:14:10.680 Maxwell Camara: doing homework, working on projects, and then once I was at that, you know, 40-ish hours a week, I would… I gave myself other time to do other things, so… 111 00:14:10.860 --> 00:14:16.320 Maxwell Camara: Exercising, getting outside, just doing anything else that I enjoyed. 112 00:14:16.640 --> 00:14:23.300 Maxwell Camara: So, still finding that balance, but really making sure I put in the specific time to review stuff. 113 00:14:24.000 --> 00:14:34.650 Maxwell Camara: In different ways, too, so I would do a lot of whiteboarding in grad school, something I never did in undergrad. So things like drawing out the big ideas, so what's your diagnosis? What sort of… 114 00:14:34.740 --> 00:14:48.320 Maxwell Camara: Signs and symptoms are you going to see? What sort of tests are you using? What's the intervention look like? What does the actual person look like? Rather than just memorizing certain facts like you might do in a lot of your classes in undergrad. 115 00:14:52.680 --> 00:14:54.759 Christopher Lewis: Now, you just talked about the fact that 116 00:14:55.130 --> 00:14:59.050 Christopher Lewis: There's a lot of hats that you wear when you're in graduate school. 117 00:14:59.420 --> 00:15:16.610 Christopher Lewis: Not only are you a student, you're a friend, you're a family member, you are… as I said, you're wearing lots of hats. And as you said earlier, one of the things that you thought of when you thought of looking… working… or when you thought of going to the University of Michigan-Flint was that you could live at home. 118 00:15:16.940 --> 00:15:21.020 Christopher Lewis: And then there's that draw from your family of, hey, come on back. 119 00:15:21.860 --> 00:15:37.639 Christopher Lewis: So talk to me about balance, and how did you find that balance for yourself? What did you have to do to find that balance for yourself, where you were balancing school, work, family, or other personal responsibilities while you were going through this graduate school experience? 120 00:15:39.840 --> 00:15:56.290 Maxwell Camara: Balance is hard. It took me a while to figure it out. I would say maybe even two to three semesters in wasn't until I really figured out how to have that balance. So I think it's okay to not really understand, you know, where… how to do it, how to balance jobs and family and school. 121 00:15:56.390 --> 00:16:01.129 Maxwell Camara: But the way I found it was really framing it as that 40-hour work week. 122 00:16:01.310 --> 00:16:10.009 Maxwell Camara: And then making sure I had the routine in place. So something I knew I wanted to always have through PT school was a consistent exercise schedule. 123 00:16:10.350 --> 00:16:11.810 Maxwell Camara: So, going to the gym. 124 00:16:12.220 --> 00:16:20.950 Maxwell Camara: two to four times a week, and not making any excuses not to go. So that really helps to, you know, reset my mind, and be ready for… 125 00:16:21.060 --> 00:16:23.360 Maxwell Camara: The other hours that I had to put in that day. 126 00:16:23.860 --> 00:16:31.409 Maxwell Camara: So just having that routine helped shape that balance. Also having a good support system, so I was able to find some great 127 00:16:31.610 --> 00:16:39.740 Maxwell Camara: friends, and I have good family that were able to support me in terms of, you know, if I'm struggling, I can ask them questions. If they're struggling, I can help them. 128 00:16:39.900 --> 00:16:41.169 Maxwell Camara: I also… 129 00:16:41.540 --> 00:16:49.479 Maxwell Camara: you know, can talk to people about other things going on. So just making sure I had that community in place, and then still having… 130 00:16:49.650 --> 00:16:56.190 Maxwell Camara: my routine, and then once I had that set, I could build on top of that as I went through school, is what really… 131 00:16:56.460 --> 00:16:58.430 Maxwell Camara: Made it a little bit easier. 132 00:17:00.410 --> 00:17:08.460 Christopher Lewis: Now, I talk to graduate students all the time, and as they typically go into graduate school, they're… 133 00:17:08.800 --> 00:17:17.739 Christopher Lewis: Many times is that feeling of imposter syndrome that creeps in, that self-doubt that rears its head. 134 00:17:18.040 --> 00:17:23.389 Christopher Lewis: Talk to me about how that impacted you in graduate school, and how did you handle it? 135 00:17:25.520 --> 00:17:35.980 Maxwell Camara: Yeah, I think it's one of those tough subjects where we work really hard to be, you know, the best we can at this job, but there's still that doubt of if we're actually helping anybody. 136 00:17:36.580 --> 00:17:41.729 Maxwell Camara: So, I think… I'm lucky, I really love what I do. 137 00:17:42.000 --> 00:17:47.159 Maxwell Camara: Because I've been able to see the change that it makes for people, just as a student. 138 00:17:47.330 --> 00:17:48.320 Maxwell Camara: So… 139 00:17:48.800 --> 00:17:58.239 Maxwell Camara: I'd really encourage anybody going into grad school or PT school to take advantage of these real opportunities in their field. So, for me, it was more… 140 00:17:58.360 --> 00:18:03.010 Maxwell Camara: Of those heart opportunities, so doing the research, being in the clinic, 141 00:18:03.180 --> 00:18:07.600 Maxwell Camara: That's what really helped me see the big changes for people. 142 00:18:07.990 --> 00:18:13.300 Maxwell Camara: So, being able to see the change, plus really putting in the hard work, and really… 143 00:18:13.770 --> 00:18:17.150 Maxwell Camara: Going beyond what was expected of me was… 144 00:18:17.340 --> 00:18:21.390 Maxwell Camara: Kind of helped me get past that idea of imposter syndrome. 145 00:18:21.790 --> 00:18:26.360 Maxwell Camara: You know what, even in the clinic today, as I'm still… 146 00:18:26.550 --> 00:18:33.169 Maxwell Camara: trying to graduate, I still have some of those days where it's, you know, starts to creep in and I feel like I'm not really helping them. 147 00:18:33.580 --> 00:18:35.220 Maxwell Camara: And I think the best way that… 148 00:18:35.370 --> 00:18:38.920 Maxwell Camara: I've been able to get over that, is that things just take time. 149 00:18:39.550 --> 00:18:46.060 Maxwell Camara: We're only seeing these patients for a really small percentage of their entire week, so there's other things happening. 150 00:18:46.340 --> 00:18:50.930 Maxwell Camara: But if you give it patience and time, and you put in the, you know, your best effort. 151 00:18:51.210 --> 00:18:56.920 Maxwell Camara: A lot of the time, you're gonna see these really cool changes, and they're gonna come at the least expected time. 152 00:18:57.360 --> 00:18:59.950 Maxwell Camara: So I think that's what has really helped me with 153 00:19:00.350 --> 00:19:04.239 Maxwell Camara: imposter syndrome and feel like I just can't, or I wouldn't be able to do it. 154 00:19:07.550 --> 00:19:13.149 Christopher Lewis: And one of the things that I know when you go through a program like physical therapy is one of the 155 00:19:13.600 --> 00:19:21.059 Christopher Lewis: One of the things that really allows for you to be able to take everything that you're learning and putting it into 156 00:19:21.210 --> 00:19:24.250 Christopher Lewis: Reality is going out on those clinicals. 157 00:19:24.880 --> 00:19:29.190 Christopher Lewis: And I know you're currently in clinicals right now, in your third year. 158 00:19:29.950 --> 00:19:32.600 Christopher Lewis: Talk to me about… the… 159 00:19:33.070 --> 00:19:40.479 Christopher Lewis: What those clinicals have done for you to be able to help you to see the future that you see for yourself in this profession? 160 00:19:41.900 --> 00:19:50.430 Maxwell Camara: Yeah, so I was pretty intentional with the choices I made for my clinicals. The first one I did was in the hospital. 161 00:19:50.760 --> 00:19:53.949 Maxwell Camara: And I'll admit, it wasn't something I was super interested in. 162 00:19:54.140 --> 00:19:59.050 Maxwell Camara: Because I know it's a little bit more of a challenger, or a challenging setting. 163 00:19:59.260 --> 00:20:09.950 Maxwell Camara: But I ended up enjoying it more than I thought I would. So just being able to see PT work in all these different settings and different populations is very… it's very cool to see. 164 00:20:10.310 --> 00:20:14.430 Maxwell Camara: So I encourage any graduate student to really 165 00:20:14.640 --> 00:20:22.510 Maxwell Camara: you know, branch out. So I enjoy orthopedic settings, but I also wanted to see every other setting while I was a student. 166 00:20:22.620 --> 00:20:27.880 Maxwell Camara: to get the best mentoring I could, in this short 9-month period. 167 00:20:28.100 --> 00:20:36.070 Maxwell Camara: So I had the hospital setting, I'm at one now that's more of an outpatient neuro setting, then I have one that's a sports setting. 168 00:20:36.300 --> 00:20:38.930 Maxwell Camara: And that was set up so that I could keep building. 169 00:20:39.140 --> 00:20:41.820 Maxwell Camara: Off of what… off of the last one. 170 00:20:42.340 --> 00:20:50.710 Maxwell Camara: And really challenged myself with different populations and things that I saw, even if it wasn't something I was necessarily super interested in. 171 00:20:51.150 --> 00:20:55.910 Maxwell Camara: So, setting yourself up for success. So, I did an interview for my last one. 172 00:20:56.200 --> 00:20:59.689 Maxwell Camara: I was able to talk to faculty, And figure out which… 173 00:20:59.900 --> 00:21:14.079 Maxwell Camara: clinicals they thought were… might be better than others, maybe if they had known some of the clinical instructors. So just getting an idea of what would… might work for me before I actually selected these clinicals was very helpful. 174 00:21:14.540 --> 00:21:16.390 Maxwell Camara: And then in terms of after. 175 00:21:16.500 --> 00:21:18.580 Maxwell Camara: It just gives you a really big… 176 00:21:19.490 --> 00:21:26.879 Maxwell Camara: You know, more experience to draw from as you're either getting a job, looking for jobs, or maybe, you know, starting something on your own. 177 00:21:27.030 --> 00:21:33.230 Maxwell Camara: So, trying the thing, and if you don't like it, move on, but maybe you do like it, and it's just another option for you. 178 00:21:36.370 --> 00:21:45.209 Christopher Lewis: Now, as you think about other individuals that are thinking about graduate school, whether it's physical therapy, or business, or something completely different. 179 00:21:45.930 --> 00:21:48.539 Christopher Lewis: And you think back to the experience that you've had. 180 00:21:49.070 --> 00:21:54.890 Christopher Lewis: What are some tips that you might offer others considering graduate education that would help them find success sooner? 181 00:21:58.060 --> 00:22:02.879 Maxwell Camara: That's a tough one, because graduate school's becoming more expensive. 182 00:22:03.120 --> 00:22:07.539 Maxwell Camara: And a lot of the jobs maybe aren't necessarily matching that with salary. 183 00:22:07.970 --> 00:22:15.380 Maxwell Camara: So I would say really get involved in undergrad with… if you're thinking about grad school in that, you know, specific field. 184 00:22:15.540 --> 00:22:21.519 Maxwell Camara: So for me, PT, I would join the pre-PT club and learn as much as you can through that club. 185 00:22:21.880 --> 00:22:29.809 Maxwell Camara: Maybe if you're thinking of other professions, join the PA club, join the, you know, any sort of medical club, so if you're thinking about med school. 186 00:22:29.920 --> 00:22:33.359 Maxwell Camara: So just learn about as many things as you can while you're an undergrad. 187 00:22:33.490 --> 00:22:41.790 Maxwell Camara: shadow all these different settings before you go into PT school, make sure it's something that you think you'd really thrive in before you sign up for it. 188 00:22:42.060 --> 00:22:56.379 Maxwell Camara: And talk to the people that are actually doing it. So, maybe that's a student, maybe that's the faculty, and just see, is this, you know, something I would enjoy? Are the students enjoying what they're doing? Is it, you know, could I see myself here in 2 years? 189 00:22:59.450 --> 00:23:14.989 Christopher Lewis: Well, Max, I just want to say thank you. Thank you for sharing your story today, and I'm really looking forward to seeing you as you get ready to finish up here, and the future that it holds for you as well, and I truly wish you all the best. 190 00:23:15.240 --> 00:23:16.509 Maxwell Camara: Great, thanks for having me.

1. juni 202619 min

From Research to Reality: Finding Success in Graduate School

*]:pointer-events-auto R6Vx5W_threadScrollVars scroll-mb-[calc(var(--scroll-root-safe-area-inset-bottom,0px)+var(--thread-response-height))] scroll-mt-[calc(var(--header-height)+min(200px,max(70px,20svh)))]" dir="auto" data-turn-id= "request-WEB:b97d1e6a-7417-433c-8520-25a826ef893b-0" data-turn-id-container= "request-WEB:b97d1e6a-7417-433c-8520-25a826ef893b-0" data-testid= "conversation-turn-2" data-scroll-anchor="false" data-turn= "assistant"> In this episode of the Victors in Grad School podcast, listeners are taken on an honest and insightful journey through the graduate school experience with Steve Wilson [https://www.linkedin.com/in/steven-wilson-29a623b5/]. From the very beginning of the conversation, one theme stands out clearly: graduate school is not simply about earning another degree—it is about growth, discovery, and learning how to navigate uncertainty. Steve shares how a summer undergraduate research opportunity completely changed the direction of his life. What began as a simple invitation from a professor turned into a passion for research and ultimately led him toward a PhD. His story highlights something many students may not realize: graduate education can open doors that once felt impossible, especially when students learn about opportunities like fully funded doctoral programs. Steve encourages students to think deeply about why they want to pursue graduate school and what they hope to gain from the experience. Rather than simply "checking the box" for another credential, he emphasizes taking ownership of the journey—seeking out projects, building relationships, exploring research opportunities, and connecting classroom learning to long-term career goals. Steve openly reflects on the challenges of adapting from undergraduate coursework to the expectations of doctoral-level research. He speaks honestly about moments of uncertainty, the value of mentorship, and how important it was to build friendships and maintain personal connections outside of academia. His reflections remind listeners that success in graduate school is not just about intelligence or hard work; it is also about community, self-awareness, and resilience. One especially powerful takeaway from the episode is the reminder that preparation matters. Steve discusses how reading research papers, learning trends within a field, and connecting with others already in graduate programs can help students feel more confident before they even step into their first class. Whether you are just beginning to think about graduate school, currently applying, or already deep into your academic journey, this episode offers practical advice and encouragement that can help you move forward with confidence. Steve's story is relatable, thoughtful, and filled with wisdom for anyone considering what comes next in their educational and professional path. If you are looking for inspiration, real-world advice, and an honest look at graduate education, this is an episode you will not want to miss. TRANSCRIPT WEBVTT 1 00:00:03.260 --> 00:00:19.929 Christopher Lewis: Welcome back to Victors in Grad School. I'm your host, Dr. Christopher Lewis, Director of Graduate Programs at the University of Michigan, Flint. Really excited to have you back again this week. As always, every week, I love being able to be on this journey with you, and I call it a journey because it truly is a journey. 2 00:00:20.140 --> 00:00:33.039 Christopher Lewis: Whether you are at the very beginning, and you're starting to think about, well, maybe I want to do this grad school thing, or maybe you've applied, and you're waiting for that answer, or you've already gotten your answer, and you're accepted, and you're going to be starting classes soon. 3 00:00:33.120 --> 00:00:43.290 Christopher Lewis: Or, maybe you're in a graduate program, and you see that light at the end of the tunnel. No matter where you are, you're on a journey. There are things that you can do today, right now. 4 00:00:43.430 --> 00:00:50.749 Christopher Lewis: That you can work on to help you to be able to find success in this graduate school journey. 5 00:00:50.830 --> 00:01:05.529 Christopher Lewis: And that's why this podcast exists. Every week, I love being able to have the opportunity to be able to work with you, to introduce you to people that have gone before you, gone to graduate school, found success in their own ways. 6 00:01:05.760 --> 00:01:10.280 Christopher Lewis: And then you can learn from what they learned along the way as well. 7 00:01:10.360 --> 00:01:31.270 Christopher Lewis: Today, we've got another great guest. Dr. Steve Wilson is with us today, and Dr. Wilson is a faculty member at the University of Michigan, Flint in our College of Innovation and Technology, and I'm really excited to be able to have him here, and for him to talk a little bit more about his own experience, and to introduce him to you. 8 00:01:31.650 --> 00:01:33.569 Christopher Lewis: Steve, thanks so much for being here today. 9 00:01:34.080 --> 00:01:35.429 Steve Wilson: Yeah, thanks for having me. 10 00:01:36.250 --> 00:01:52.029 Christopher Lewis: You know, I'm really excited to be able to have you here, and I always love to start these conversations really turning the clock back in time, because I know that you did your undergraduate work at Taylor, at Taylor University, and when you were there. 11 00:01:52.030 --> 00:01:57.120 Christopher Lewis: there was a point. There was a point in time where you said to yourself, I'm not done. 12 00:01:57.270 --> 00:01:58.669 Christopher Lewis: I want to continue. 13 00:01:59.050 --> 00:02:04.869 Christopher Lewis: Bring me back to that point, and what was going through your head as you made that decision for yourself? 14 00:02:06.410 --> 00:02:14.000 Steve Wilson: Yeah, great question. So I think it was a series of events that led me there. 15 00:02:14.840 --> 00:02:19.329 Steve Wilson: which started with research. I mean, that's, I think, what led me to this whole thing. 16 00:02:19.570 --> 00:02:23.810 Steve Wilson: I had a great opportunity to be involved in a summer research project. 17 00:02:23.930 --> 00:02:25.669 Steve Wilson: while I was working at Taylor. 18 00:02:26.020 --> 00:02:33.089 Steve Wilson: We were kind of working with a company there on some things, and, you know, it was just, one of my professors. 19 00:02:33.730 --> 00:02:40.900 Steve Wilson: at some point in the semester, said, hey, Steve, are you working on anything this summer? We've got this interesting research project, you might be a good fit. 20 00:02:41.280 --> 00:02:49.669 Steve Wilson: And I thought it sounded like something fun to try, so I did that, and throughout that summer, I kind of 21 00:02:49.900 --> 00:02:52.199 Steve Wilson: Fell in love with research, you could say. 22 00:02:54.250 --> 00:03:00.219 Steve Wilson: I just really loved the idea of… in contrast to what my coursework felt like, where it was more… 23 00:03:00.960 --> 00:03:13.840 Steve Wilson: We know the answer, we know you can get here, let's figure out how to do that. Research was, we don't really know what the answer is. We don't know if there is an answer, but we're gonna try this because we think this is an important thing to work on. 24 00:03:13.990 --> 00:03:20.080 Steve Wilson: And I really loved working on those kind of projects, And… 25 00:03:20.220 --> 00:03:25.710 Steve Wilson: I think that went well. And I started asking more about how 26 00:03:26.510 --> 00:03:29.539 Steve Wilson: I could get more involved in research, and… 27 00:03:30.320 --> 00:03:36.340 Steve Wilson: my professor said, why did… did you think about going to grad school? Maybe you could do a PhD, and I said. 28 00:03:36.480 --> 00:03:41.810 Steve Wilson: I don't have any more money. You know, undergrad is kind of the end of the line for me, I need to go get a job. 29 00:03:42.250 --> 00:03:49.179 Steve Wilson: And that's when I learned the thing I think everyone should know, you know, especially in STEM, 30 00:03:49.690 --> 00:04:03.340 Steve Wilson: almost any PhD program that you'll go to is fully funded, which means maybe you're not making as much as you would for an industry job, but tuition's covered, health insurance is covered, and you have a stipend that's, you know, enough to live off of. 31 00:04:03.730 --> 00:04:12.610 Steve Wilson: And so that knowledge itself kind of flipped everything for me, where I realized it was a… financially, it was an option in the first place. And I wouldn't have known, I'd… 32 00:04:12.720 --> 00:04:15.290 Steve Wilson: Always assumed PhD was something… 33 00:04:15.960 --> 00:04:31.260 Steve Wilson: kind of out of reach for me, personally, just because of my situation, but learning that, you know, it could be financially possible, learning that it was actually very research-focused, it wasn't just, I would be going to take 5 more years of courses. 34 00:04:31.340 --> 00:04:37.520 Steve Wilson: Which is kind of what I had assumed it was when you did a PhD, you just took really hard courses the whole time. 35 00:04:37.660 --> 00:04:46.530 Steve Wilson: But it's not that. It really is almost like an apprenticeship learning how to do research, with a little bit of coursework in there as well. 36 00:04:46.860 --> 00:04:50.740 Steve Wilson: And that sounded really appealing to me, so that was… 37 00:04:50.990 --> 00:04:55.480 Steve Wilson: Kind of my final year of undergrad that this all started happening. 38 00:04:55.810 --> 00:04:59.639 Steve Wilson: And I started looking at schools, I started applying, 39 00:05:01.170 --> 00:05:07.709 Steve Wilson: probably still could have prepared better and learned more, but, you know, I put out my best shot and, 40 00:05:08.850 --> 00:05:12.730 Steve Wilson: started applying for PhD programs, basically, right from there. 41 00:05:12.990 --> 00:05:15.959 Steve Wilson: And that was how that decision came to be. 42 00:05:16.870 --> 00:05:29.119 Christopher Lewis: And I know you made the decision, finally, to attend the University of Michigan for a PhD program, and in that PhD program, you received both a master's and a PhD. 43 00:05:29.520 --> 00:05:44.190 Christopher Lewis: Talk to me about that decision-making process for yourself, because you said you started looking at programs. So, what did you do in that process for yourself, and what was it about the University of Michigan that made you decide that that was the right program for you? 44 00:05:45.670 --> 00:05:53.080 Steve Wilson: Right, okay, so… During my undergrad, I got… Pretty interested in… 45 00:05:55.640 --> 00:06:01.769 Steve Wilson: The combination slash overlap between computer science and psychology or cognitive science. 46 00:06:01.870 --> 00:06:10.100 Steve Wilson: Because I had actually started out a psychology major during my undergrad. Psychology pre-med, actually, and then… 47 00:06:10.250 --> 00:06:20.780 Steve Wilson: for various reasons, ended up switching to computer science. But I had still always been super interested in the aspects of human behavior, how people interact, cognition, things like that. 48 00:06:21.050 --> 00:06:28.519 Steve Wilson: So I was super interested in that as a starting point, and I think that led a lot of my search for 49 00:06:28.760 --> 00:06:30.549 Steve Wilson: Who are the people 50 00:06:30.780 --> 00:06:50.509 Steve Wilson: working at that intersection, who would be doing something related to computer science, but also where I'd be able to do something related to psychology or cognitive science. So, I just started looking around online to see where are these researchers who are doing this kind of stuff, and I found some amazing people all around the world doing really cool things. 51 00:06:50.910 --> 00:06:55.150 Steve Wilson: And… Started looking at… 52 00:06:55.350 --> 00:07:06.179 Steve Wilson: the PhD programs where they were taking students, and that kind of gave me a short list of potential programs, to apply for, where I thought. 53 00:07:06.530 --> 00:07:15.120 Steve Wilson: This is research I'd be super excited about working on. If I was able to be fortunate to get a position working with any of these people, I would be pretty happy. 54 00:07:15.550 --> 00:07:19.830 Steve Wilson: And that would kind of allow me to build off of the background that I had. 55 00:07:20.330 --> 00:07:27.260 Steve Wilson: And… One of those programs was the University of Michigan, I… 56 00:07:28.220 --> 00:07:37.390 Steve Wilson: applied to the program. I… I think another criteria, in addition, which Michigan has, which was a funding guarantee. 57 00:07:37.680 --> 00:07:45.949 Steve Wilson: Which is something I talked about before, but, you know, the financials were a big thing for me. And not every school has the same kind of funding guarantee. 58 00:07:47.230 --> 00:07:55.579 Steve Wilson: University of Michigan had a 5-year guaranteed funding for all PhD students who were admitted into the College of Engineering, which was pretty appealing to me. 59 00:07:55.740 --> 00:08:00.820 Steve Wilson: To know that I would be able to make good progress and not have to worry about 60 00:08:00.990 --> 00:08:14.529 Steve Wilson: funding. And a number of other schools had similar programs that I kind of exclusively applied to those kind of programs who also had faculty, were working in this type of intersection area, and… 61 00:08:14.600 --> 00:08:23.440 Steve Wilson: I think I eventually ended up going for in-person interviews at 3 or 4 universities. 62 00:08:25.030 --> 00:08:35.010 Steve Wilson: they all felt great when I was there, and I think U of M was the last one, so sometimes I wonder if there was a recency bias there, but each one, I think, impressed me more than the previous one. 63 00:08:35.250 --> 00:08:42.400 Steve Wilson: But I really felt… that I could connect and relate to the students when I visited. 64 00:08:42.510 --> 00:08:46.209 Steve Wilson: In a way that felt different from some of the other places. 65 00:08:46.580 --> 00:08:55.659 Steve Wilson: And there were not just one faculty, but a number of different faculty at the University of Michigan who I felt were very strong in the areas I was interested in. 66 00:08:56.250 --> 00:09:11.639 Steve Wilson: So, I felt that that was also very safe to have as a, you know, what if somebody leaves, or what if it doesn't work out with a certain faculty member? I felt pretty confident that I would be able to find someone that I was happy working with for… 67 00:09:12.320 --> 00:09:15.599 Steve Wilson: You know, 5 or 6 years on research. 68 00:09:15.740 --> 00:09:22.240 Steve Wilson: And I'm also… grew up in Michigan, so, there was that pull to be… 69 00:09:22.360 --> 00:09:30.469 Steve Wilson: within driving distance of home and things like that was nice. So all of those things kind of converged to make it feel like it was the right decision. 70 00:09:32.570 --> 00:09:46.629 Christopher Lewis: So, in transitioning into a graduate program, there is always a transition, because the way in which you're educated at an undergraduate level is typically different than what you're being asked to do at a graduate level. 71 00:09:46.810 --> 00:10:04.400 Christopher Lewis: the rigor is different, the expectations in the classroom are going to be different, and you do have to go through a transition for yourself to be able to find that groove and find that… that ability to be able to understand, okay, what am I being expected to do, and how can I best do that? So. 72 00:10:04.590 --> 00:10:09.200 Christopher Lewis: You were able to find success in this journey that you went on. 73 00:10:10.110 --> 00:10:16.820 Christopher Lewis: What did you have to do to be able to set yourself up for success as you transitioned into the program? 74 00:10:17.180 --> 00:10:24.620 Christopher Lewis: And what did you have to do to maintain that success throughout the entire graduate school experience? 75 00:10:27.250 --> 00:10:35.130 Steve Wilson: this isn't good, repeatable advice, but I think I got very lucky a few times, especially at the beginning, because I think I actually… 76 00:10:36.120 --> 00:10:47.370 Steve Wilson: didn't prepare in the best way possible. I don't think I fully understood what a PhD program was, to be honest, when I started. I knew it was about research, I knew I was gonna be working on 77 00:10:47.500 --> 00:10:50.320 Steve Wilson: interesting stuff, and I was very excited about it. 78 00:10:50.760 --> 00:10:55.759 Steve Wilson: But… I still don't think I fully understood what it meant to… 79 00:10:56.110 --> 00:11:10.890 Steve Wilson: do a dissertation, and really get involved in this longer-term, not just a summer research position, but, you know, really trying to make a contribution, sustained contribution in a field, and what went into that, and how do you prepare yourself as a 80 00:11:11.340 --> 00:11:14.229 Steve Wilson: Developing into a researcher from someone who's 81 00:11:15.050 --> 00:11:19.879 Steve Wilson: Been used to being handed assignments for things and studying for exams and all of that. 82 00:11:20.240 --> 00:11:26.620 Steve Wilson: I think I could have prepared a lot more, probably by talking to more people 83 00:11:27.150 --> 00:11:34.150 Steve Wilson: in PhD programs, or who had gone through similar experiences, or finding… there are actually tons of great resources online, which I… 84 00:11:34.340 --> 00:11:37.020 Steve Wilson: I'm not sure I knew even what to search for. 85 00:11:37.130 --> 00:11:41.849 Steve Wilson: when I was an undergraduate, but a lot of people who have written about their experiences, 86 00:11:41.950 --> 00:11:44.759 Steve Wilson: Through blog posts or other things like that, which… 87 00:11:44.970 --> 00:11:51.250 Steve Wilson: I only found later and thought, this… wow, this would have been really… valuable to me early on. 88 00:11:51.800 --> 00:11:56.749 Steve Wilson: so some of it was learning as I was going, and then some of it was, 89 00:11:57.260 --> 00:12:06.249 Steve Wilson: you know, as I mentioned, the luck thing, I think, comes into play with my own advisor, who was not actually at the University of Michigan when I applied. 90 00:12:06.440 --> 00:12:11.629 Steve Wilson: So I made that comment about there being several faculty that I thought I might work with. 91 00:12:11.790 --> 00:12:14.170 Steve Wilson: The person I ended up working with wasn't one of them. 92 00:12:14.650 --> 00:12:23.210 Steve Wilson: And… She actually started the same semester I did, coming from another institution, and was a new faculty member. 93 00:12:23.520 --> 00:12:33.580 Steve Wilson: And the way I remember it, it was, she sent an email to the new PhD student saying there was a project related to computer science and psychology and language and… 94 00:12:34.120 --> 00:12:44.349 Steve Wilson: if anyone's interested in that kind of research, to come talk to her. And that was, you know, as I described before, kind of exactly the thing I was interested in, so I… 95 00:12:44.750 --> 00:12:46.470 Steve Wilson: Set up a meeting. 96 00:12:46.860 --> 00:13:02.990 Steve Wilson: We started kind of tentatively working on something, and then that became my entire dissertation. So, in some ways, I feel like I stumbled into that path, which is what ended up working very well for me, in the long run. But if I… 97 00:13:03.660 --> 00:13:22.249 Steve Wilson: if I would give advice to people, it probably wouldn't be just go somewhere and hope you find the best advisor by chance. It would be do your homework beforehand and figure out what it looks like to be a student in their lab, even looking at some of the trajectories of their own, you know, the other students who work in that research lab and things like that. 98 00:13:22.590 --> 00:13:28.360 Steve Wilson: Other things to be successful, I think, was… 99 00:13:28.810 --> 00:13:31.079 Steve Wilson: I, I really do think, 100 00:13:31.610 --> 00:13:36.440 Steve Wilson: My undergrad education at Taylor prepared me fairly well for a lot of the… 101 00:13:36.770 --> 00:13:42.649 Steve Wilson: CS coursework. I think there was a good, solid technical background that I had. 102 00:13:42.790 --> 00:13:51.809 Steve Wilson: I found grad school, especially at University of Michigan, to have a bigger emphasis on some of the, like, math and theory components. 103 00:13:51.970 --> 00:13:55.579 Steve Wilson: of the field of computer science, which I… 104 00:13:55.730 --> 00:13:57.409 Steve Wilson: Had to do some catching up. 105 00:13:58.060 --> 00:14:00.510 Steve Wilson: I would say, but I think you… 106 00:14:01.380 --> 00:14:03.360 Steve Wilson: I think the undergraduate degree is… 107 00:14:03.500 --> 00:14:14.410 Steve Wilson: maybe this is kind of cliche, but it's learning how to learn about things on your own, and I feel like I was kind of able to get that to the point that if there were things that were thrown at me in my master's, that 108 00:14:14.920 --> 00:14:16.500 Steve Wilson: May have been a gap. 109 00:14:16.660 --> 00:14:23.570 Steve Wilson: I kind of had the ability to identify that and do a little bit of self-study to catch up. 110 00:14:23.670 --> 00:14:44.940 Steve Wilson: or rely on other classmates, you know, make some friends, study together, that kind of thing, and get through some of that coursework, which was definitely challenging at times for the… you know, this was for the master's component of my program, where you… you did the coursework that would be involved in a master's during the first two years of your PhD, while you're also getting started with your research. 111 00:14:45.130 --> 00:14:51.020 Steve Wilson: So, yeah, there were some… Challenges there, just getting used to, 112 00:14:51.320 --> 00:14:55.730 Steve Wilson: Maybe a different level of courses and having some of those different areas covered. 113 00:14:55.950 --> 00:15:04.410 Steve Wilson: But yeah, I think those are some of the things. I don't know, yeah. 114 00:15:04.630 --> 00:15:07.300 Steve Wilson: Maybe that… I'll leave it there for now. 115 00:15:07.870 --> 00:15:16.210 Christopher Lewis: I guess as you look back, you've gotten through the master's and the doctorate, you went to do a postdoc as well, and you continue to do that. 116 00:15:16.730 --> 00:15:25.930 Christopher Lewis: If you could go back in time prior to starting in the master's degree, how would you prepare academically or professionally before starting graduate school? 117 00:15:27.970 --> 00:15:34.229 Steve Wilson: for my PhD, I think, like, before, yeah, PhD or Master's, 118 00:15:35.690 --> 00:15:41.770 Steve Wilson: maybe getting a bit more immersed in the research, the field that I was getting into from a… 119 00:15:42.500 --> 00:15:48.250 Steve Wilson: What's happening now perspective, not the historic, fundamental stuff, which is covered in your courses, but… 120 00:15:48.570 --> 00:15:57.739 Steve Wilson: I don't know if I would have been able to convince myself to do this, but if I could have spent the summer before reading a lot of research papers, for example, that were kind of the core 121 00:15:57.940 --> 00:16:03.469 Steve Wilson: pieces, or very recent trends. Because there was a lot to learn about 122 00:16:03.890 --> 00:16:12.139 Steve Wilson: Not what has this field been like for… in 50… the past 50 years, but especially in the past 2 or 3 years, what are the trends, what's going on? 123 00:16:12.360 --> 00:16:17.009 Steve Wilson: getting used to being able to read a research paper, I think, is one of those things that 124 00:16:17.400 --> 00:16:29.960 Steve Wilson: takes practice. It's almost like an exercise, mental muscle type of thing, more so than a thing you can just teach, here's how to read a research paper. Obviously, there are some tips, but really, you have to do it. You just have to do it. 125 00:16:30.880 --> 00:16:37.479 Steve Wilson: looking at, talks from people, which are often posted online, like, on YouTube, from leaders in the field. 126 00:16:37.690 --> 00:16:41.959 Steve Wilson: Hearing what they have to say, what people are writing about, to get… 127 00:16:42.100 --> 00:16:46.150 Steve Wilson: very involved in some of that, and then… 128 00:16:46.300 --> 00:16:56.739 Steve Wilson: Yeah, if there are topics that would be background, if you were pivoting toward a different field for your graduate degree, I know that's fairly common, where I would see people from 129 00:16:57.930 --> 00:17:10.289 Steve Wilson: a range of other fields who want to do a master's in computer science, for example. I had classmates who had backgrounds all the way through music. I knew someone who's a music undergrad and then did CS masters, or sometimes people do a bit of a shift. 130 00:17:10.440 --> 00:17:11.790 Steve Wilson: So… 131 00:17:11.900 --> 00:17:19.989 Steve Wilson: a little bit of self-study, I think, on some of those concepts that are used across a lot of courses. For me, I actually did do a little bit of… 132 00:17:22.099 --> 00:17:28.330 Steve Wilson: study of some math concepts in the summer before, that I felt like I needed to catch up on. 133 00:17:28.620 --> 00:17:36.420 Steve Wilson: So those kind of things, but I think if you can hit the ground running, kind of having a good sense of where is this field 134 00:17:36.670 --> 00:17:38.290 Steve Wilson: at right now. 135 00:17:38.540 --> 00:17:47.060 Steve Wilson: Even if you don't understand all of it, but knowing the trends, not in just a buzzword way, but what are people who are working on this actually talking about it can be… 136 00:17:47.300 --> 00:17:51.350 Steve Wilson: extremely helpful for, like, getting kickstart as a researcher. 137 00:17:54.480 --> 00:18:02.289 Christopher Lewis: And as you just go into a doctorate program, and you are moving into that next phase of your life. 138 00:18:04.060 --> 00:18:20.899 Christopher Lewis: how… there takes a… there's a lot of things that you have to balance, and a lot of hats that you have to wear. You're not only a student, but you are a… you're still… you are… you're still a son, you're a… you could be… you have a significant other, there's lots of different things that you have to juggle. 139 00:18:20.900 --> 00:18:30.579 Christopher Lewis: Talk to me about balance for yourself, and how did you balance school with work and family and personal responsibilities while you were going through that graduate school process? 140 00:18:31.260 --> 00:18:34.170 Steve Wilson: Yeah, definitely a big challenge. 141 00:18:34.750 --> 00:18:43.020 Steve Wilson: because it is a… it's a thing, you can kind of give as much time as… as you want to it, right? Like, there's always more you can do. 142 00:18:43.310 --> 00:18:48.129 Steve Wilson: When you're in one of these graduate programs, I think, or more that you feel that you could be doing. 143 00:18:50.030 --> 00:19:00.839 Steve Wilson: So, yeah, I think part of it was balancing schedules with, my partner, so I was married the entire time through 144 00:19:01.150 --> 00:19:05.020 Steve Wilson: graduate school. My wife worked… 145 00:19:05.450 --> 00:19:09.709 Steve Wilson: For the first while, night shifts at the hospital. 146 00:19:09.930 --> 00:19:16.210 Steve Wilson: There in Ann Arbor as well, so there was some convenience to that, because we were both able to 147 00:19:16.840 --> 00:19:24.089 Steve Wilson: live without really needing a car. I mean, I could pick up the bus to where I worked, and we lived near the hospital where she worked. 148 00:19:24.320 --> 00:19:30.460 Steve Wilson: We did our thing there. And that led me to… Doing a lot of work. 149 00:19:30.660 --> 00:19:35.450 Steve Wilson: Late at night, because that was when she was working. 150 00:19:37.040 --> 00:19:46.799 Steve Wilson: And that was when I felt like I could kind of lock in, and I wasn't getting a lot of emails or other kind of distractions, and having those, like, set aside solid times of 151 00:19:47.410 --> 00:19:54.419 Steve Wilson: productivity, where I'm sitting down. You know, a lot of my work was being at the keyboard in front of the computer, you know. 152 00:19:54.740 --> 00:19:59.940 Steve Wilson: Whether it's writing code, running experiments, writing papers, reading papers, that kind of thing. 153 00:20:00.220 --> 00:20:06.159 Steve Wilson: And finding the time when I could regularly do that was useful. 154 00:20:07.960 --> 00:20:18.929 Steve Wilson: but then also making sure to have time that's not for that, that works with other people's schedules. So there were certain periods of time where 155 00:20:19.430 --> 00:20:20.360 Steve Wilson: I would… 156 00:20:20.870 --> 00:20:27.490 Steve Wilson: Be home, and be around, and not working on stuff, which is the time that we're both awake. 157 00:20:28.900 --> 00:20:36.799 Steve Wilson: And able to spend time together and do things with other friends in the area. We had a good number of mutual friends, I think. 158 00:20:37.180 --> 00:20:44.400 Steve Wilson: around Ann Arbor that, you know, would pull me away from the lab, which was a nice thing, I think, to make those connections, and not just be a… 159 00:20:45.070 --> 00:20:48.370 Steve Wilson: I'm gonna go put my head down and not talk to anyone. 160 00:20:48.480 --> 00:20:51.689 Steve Wilson: I actually found it really valuable to have a lot of friends who are not 161 00:20:51.860 --> 00:21:08.519 Steve Wilson: PhD students in computer science also. I definitely had friends in the program, but having friends doing other things kind of gives you the opportunity to step outside of that a little bit, when you're doing things with them, hearing about what's going on in their lives and things like that, so… 162 00:21:08.780 --> 00:21:11.129 Steve Wilson: That's also useful. And then… 163 00:21:11.350 --> 00:21:20.680 Steve Wilson: Like I said, the University of Michigan was located near where I grew up, so I did have family nearby, which I'm definitely very fortunate. I know not everyone 164 00:21:20.950 --> 00:21:25.139 Steve Wilson: Has the opportunity to go to grad school near where they lived. 165 00:21:25.270 --> 00:21:30.589 Steve Wilson: But it was possible for me to, like, take a weekend trip and drive home and see 166 00:21:30.710 --> 00:21:33.150 Steve Wilson: My parents and things like that, so… 167 00:21:33.460 --> 00:21:36.699 Steve Wilson: That also happened fairly regularly, I think. 168 00:21:37.290 --> 00:21:40.749 Steve Wilson: But, yeah, I would say it's… 169 00:21:41.690 --> 00:21:48.199 Steve Wilson: it's challenging. I have kids now, I didn't have kids as a grad student. I think life would have been very different, you know. 170 00:21:48.660 --> 00:21:56.320 Steve Wilson: also balancing being a dad with grad school, and really, I'm not sure how I would have done it other than 171 00:21:56.940 --> 00:22:02.380 Steve Wilson: I don't know, being just very regimented and strict with my time, even more so than I was. 172 00:22:02.620 --> 00:22:09.669 Steve Wilson: But… yeah, I think I… it was already kind of… I felt maxed out, you know, already with… 173 00:22:09.900 --> 00:22:12.360 Steve Wilson: The situation that it was in at the time. 174 00:22:14.840 --> 00:22:31.970 Christopher Lewis: I appreciate you sharing that. Now, I mentioned earlier in passing that after you received your doctorate, you did go and do a post-bac, or a postdoc… go on… you went and did a postdoc at the University of Edinburgh, and 175 00:22:33.010 --> 00:22:52.039 Christopher Lewis: We haven't really talked a lot about that on the show, so I want to have you talk a little bit more about that experience, and what made you decide, after you were done with your doctorate, to take that next step and continue working in a higher education setting, but in a little bit of a different way? 176 00:22:53.560 --> 00:22:55.869 Steve Wilson: Yeah, so that was a great experience. 177 00:22:55.990 --> 00:22:57.400 Steve Wilson: To start. 178 00:22:57.840 --> 00:23:03.779 Steve Wilson: I started thinking about postdocs toward the end of my PhD, 179 00:23:04.270 --> 00:23:06.040 Steve Wilson: I think as a way to… 180 00:23:06.850 --> 00:23:12.329 Steve Wilson: A couple things I wanted to achieve with that, I guess. One was to broaden my research experience a bit. 181 00:23:12.680 --> 00:23:23.199 Steve Wilson: I feel… I think the purpose of a PhD is that you're very focused, and you're working on one very specific line of work, sustained over a period of time, so that you can make a contribution to the field. 182 00:23:23.580 --> 00:23:25.539 Steve Wilson: But I had this feeling, like. 183 00:23:26.310 --> 00:23:32.480 Steve Wilson: I just had worked on this one thing for so long. I wanted to get a little bit more breadth. I was… 184 00:23:32.640 --> 00:23:38.459 Steve Wilson: Definitely, in the back of my mind, thinking about faculty jobs down the road. 185 00:23:38.670 --> 00:23:41.819 Steve Wilson: But thought that it would be valuable to… 186 00:23:42.220 --> 00:23:46.070 Steve Wilson: Have a little bit more breadth in my research experience. 187 00:23:46.170 --> 00:23:48.229 Steve Wilson: And at the same time. 188 00:23:48.560 --> 00:23:55.660 Steve Wilson: the international experience was appealing to me. I had always lived in the same country my whole life. 189 00:23:55.990 --> 00:23:58.089 Steve Wilson: And it was kind of a… 190 00:23:58.940 --> 00:24:04.230 Steve Wilson: goal of mine to spend some time outside of the United States at some point. 191 00:24:04.360 --> 00:24:18.280 Steve Wilson: Just to experience living somewhere else. And I do think that was really valuable for me. And I thought a postdoc was a great opportunity to do that because of the fact that they're usually fixed-term contract type of positions, so it wasn't… it didn't feel like… 192 00:24:18.460 --> 00:24:26.929 Steve Wilson: a commitment to move to this place indefinitely or something. It was, you know, I knew going in this was a two-year term. 193 00:24:27.120 --> 00:24:28.270 Steve Wilson: Kind of thing. 194 00:24:28.450 --> 00:24:34.480 Steve Wilson: And it was a way to kind of see what it's like in a new place, get some more experience. 195 00:24:34.630 --> 00:24:42.429 Steve Wilson: continue doing research. I mean, the position I found, I think, was a really natural progression for my PhD work to expand it a little bit. 196 00:24:42.970 --> 00:24:46.680 Steve Wilson: And it also gave a little bit more breathing room, 197 00:24:47.060 --> 00:24:55.610 Steve Wilson: Where I didn't feel like I had to be writing my dissertation, defending my dissertation, and applying for faculty jobs, which is also an exhausting 198 00:24:56.150 --> 00:24:59.010 Steve Wilson: Process, I think, you know. 199 00:24:59.460 --> 00:25:10.749 Steve Wilson: to apply for faculty positions, and doing all of that at the same time. So, a postdoc also helped to space that out a little bit, where I was finishing my dissertation, and then postdoc applications, pretty… 200 00:25:11.150 --> 00:25:17.439 Steve Wilson: light, I would say, definitely compared to applying for tenure-track faculty jobs. A lot of those 201 00:25:17.620 --> 00:25:29.769 Steve Wilson: just come from word of mouth, or networking, or, you know, so-and-so just got a grant, and they have a postdoc written in, and they need someone to start in 4 months. That kind of stuff is pretty common, I think. So… 202 00:25:30.640 --> 00:25:36.829 Steve Wilson: Yeah, looking at those positions was also a nice step to… 203 00:25:37.260 --> 00:25:40.509 Steve Wilson: you know, build onto my career, I think, and… 204 00:25:40.670 --> 00:25:45.790 Steve Wilson: Personally, I just found it a really valuable and enjoyable experience, too. 205 00:25:50.680 --> 00:26:00.550 Christopher Lewis: Now, as you think about individuals that are thinking about graduate school, whether it's in a technological field, business, health, whatever it may be. 206 00:26:01.920 --> 00:26:08.879 Christopher Lewis: What are some tips that you might offer others considering graduate education that would help them find success sooner? 207 00:26:12.720 --> 00:26:17.310 Steve Wilson: I think you want to come in with a clear idea of… Why you're doing it? 208 00:26:17.850 --> 00:26:19.450 Steve Wilson: What you want to get out of it? 209 00:26:20.250 --> 00:26:23.809 Steve Wilson: And take ownership of your experience as a graduate student. 210 00:26:24.780 --> 00:26:32.600 Steve Wilson: So, what I mean is not coming in and saying, I'm not sure, I might do this, I'll go and see… 211 00:26:33.100 --> 00:26:39.150 Steve Wilson: Maybe I'll do the minimum of what they ask me, get the piece of paper at the end. 212 00:26:39.340 --> 00:26:42.759 Steve Wilson: And that will open doors for me, or something like that. 213 00:26:42.940 --> 00:26:53.610 Steve Wilson: I kind of feel like that's… it's an approach to graduate school, but I don't think it's going to really maximize what you get out of it. I think, what's really helpful is knowing I want to… 214 00:26:54.640 --> 00:27:07.760 Steve Wilson: achieve a certain kind of goal longer term, and I know this program's going to help me get there, and I want to make the most out of it to help build my profile, my skills development, those kind of things during that program, which means 215 00:27:09.130 --> 00:27:13.949 Steve Wilson: really thinking about what you want to learn, which… there are things you can learn 216 00:27:15.130 --> 00:27:33.249 Steve Wilson: beyond just the classroom. Even in the classroom, I think you can go beyond what's just given to you directly by professors by looking for ways to… I mean, I think we have a lot of, project-based kind of courses here at U of M Flint, for example, but those kind of things, I think, lend themselves nicely to 217 00:27:33.690 --> 00:27:45.019 Steve Wilson: students exploring things that match their interests. If you have the chance to do things like projects or, research components within courses, where you're able to explore those things that are going to help 218 00:27:45.550 --> 00:27:51.790 Steve Wilson: Act as a perfect stepping stone, or give you the skills that you want to talk about when you're applying for jobs later. 219 00:27:52.000 --> 00:28:02.059 Steve Wilson: That you can kind of control, you should really do that, but even outside of the classroom, I think the relationships during grad school are extremely valuable. 220 00:28:02.270 --> 00:28:06.920 Steve Wilson: I think I was always… had this impression of networking as this… 221 00:28:07.380 --> 00:28:14.880 Steve Wilson: you know, people in suits shaking hands with each other kind of thing, but really, I think a lot of the most valuable networking I've done is… 222 00:28:15.000 --> 00:28:23.449 Steve Wilson: making friends in grad school, for example, which sounds maybe too easy, but these are the people who are 223 00:28:23.870 --> 00:28:32.459 Steve Wilson: they're the future leaders in your field, right? Like, you're going to school with other people who are passionate about whatever you're studying, that want to get a graduate degree. 224 00:28:32.630 --> 00:28:50.370 Steve Wilson: it's a really unique opportunity to be in the same place consistently with that kind of cohort of people for several years, and they are probably going to be doing really impressive, amazing things in 5, 10 years. And those people that you know now, I mean, I don't think… 225 00:28:50.480 --> 00:29:03.849 Steve Wilson: you should think of relationships as this, oh, I'm only being friends so that you'll help me later, but… I mean, when I think of what my friends from grad school are doing now, it's, you know, they're all doing amazing things, and I have this network of people 226 00:29:04.130 --> 00:29:11.890 Steve Wilson: Around the world, in industry, in academia, doing cool things that I didn't… go to… 227 00:29:12.240 --> 00:29:24.029 Steve Wilson: you know, show up at knocking on doors at Google or something to know people at Google, it's just you knew people from grad school who ended up there, or those kinds of things. So I think that's a really valuable thing, is going… 228 00:29:24.290 --> 00:29:31.409 Steve Wilson: Again, beyond just what's asked of you as a grad student, but finding people around other opportunities if there are, like. 229 00:29:31.830 --> 00:29:41.409 Steve Wilson: clubs or resources that help you with, developing in your area of specialization. If you can get involved in research projects, even as a master's student. 230 00:29:41.930 --> 00:29:49.099 Steve Wilson: I think research can be valuable if you find the right project. I mean, not everyone wants to do a PhD, or wants to go into a research field. 231 00:29:49.440 --> 00:29:59.160 Steve Wilson: But you can also think of research as, like, a very open-ended way to work with someone who's kind of an expert on this topic that you wanted to study. 232 00:29:59.530 --> 00:30:02.660 Steve Wilson: And… 233 00:30:03.020 --> 00:30:13.429 Steve Wilson: I mean, make it a negotiation if you're trying to figure out a project to work on. Maybe they don't exactly do this thing that you want to get the skill, but they do something pretty close, and you can say, hey, I really want to… 234 00:30:14.020 --> 00:30:15.960 Steve Wilson: Get some experience with… 235 00:30:16.380 --> 00:30:26.600 Steve Wilson: whatever it is. For AI right now, you know a hot thing is dealing with agents, so I really want to learn how to do something with, you know, agentic AI. Is there something we can work on in your lab that would… 236 00:30:26.790 --> 00:30:36.599 Steve Wilson: fit with your research goals, but also would give me some hands-on, direct experience with Agentic AI, or whatever the thing is that you really want that skill. 237 00:30:36.960 --> 00:30:41.669 Steve Wilson: That's gonna be super valuable, not just for research positions later, but… 238 00:30:41.780 --> 00:30:53.070 Steve Wilson: for an industry position where you can say, hey, I spent the semester, or a year, or whatever it was, building these kind of tools that's exactly the thing your company's LinkedIn post is looking for. 239 00:30:53.190 --> 00:30:55.049 Steve Wilson: For… 240 00:30:55.290 --> 00:31:05.379 Steve Wilson: their purposes, and I learned from this person who has expertise in the field of how to make sure that it's done correctly, and for an impact, and all of those kind of things. 241 00:31:05.610 --> 00:31:12.540 Steve Wilson: I think that can be useful. But yeah, just being very on the, 242 00:31:12.750 --> 00:31:14.950 Steve Wilson: On the lookout for opportunities. 243 00:31:15.490 --> 00:31:18.460 Steve Wilson: While you're there, during graduate school, to… 244 00:31:18.880 --> 00:31:23.509 Steve Wilson: To do things that, are gonna set you up for success in the future. 245 00:31:23.800 --> 00:31:31.319 Steve Wilson: And talking to other people who are in similar situations, and seeing what they're doing, and those kind of things, I just think is super valuable. 246 00:31:31.630 --> 00:31:34.400 Steve Wilson: In addition to the coursework, which is gonna… 247 00:31:34.800 --> 00:31:37.430 Steve Wilson: You know, maybe get you another level of, 248 00:31:37.700 --> 00:31:42.399 Steve Wilson: Beyond your undergraduate courses in a bit more advanced level of a lot of different… 249 00:31:42.670 --> 00:31:46.349 Steve Wilson: Areas, and maybe allow you to specialize a little bit more. 250 00:31:49.950 --> 00:32:12.040 Christopher Lewis: Well, Steve, I just want to say thank you. Thank you so much for sharing your journey today. I really appreciate you taking the time to be able to share these words of wisdom and to kind of think back and relive some of the experiences, but also share some great tips, some great ideas for individuals to think about as they're starting their journey for themselves. And I wish you all the best. 251 00:32:12.680 --> 00:32:13.430 Steve Wilson: Thank you.

25. mai 202625 min

From First-Gen Student to PA: Dee Schwalm's Unconventional Grad School Journey

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