Charm of the Wilderness Ep. 5 - Diversity in the Outdoors and National Parks with KangJae Jerry Lee

Charm of the Wilderness Ep. 7 - U.S. Fire Management & the NPS with Stephen Pyne & Tom Nichols

In the Charm of the Wilderness book project, I’m using the natural elements to shape the narrative. That theme guides each park or trip. The first of all of those was a trip to Yosemite National Park I took last year that centered on fire. The two guys I interview this week played a big role in understanding the landscape of fire and fire management in the United States and the National Park Service and I’m excited for you two get to hear from them. Stephen Pyne [https://www.stephenpyne.com/] is emeritus professor from Arizona State University and one of the preeminent fire historians in the United States. His work includes The Pyrocene: How We Created an Age of Fire, and What Happens Next [https://www.ucpress.edu/books/the-pyrocene/paper] and the book that helped me learn about fire and fire management in Yosemite, Pyrocene Park: A Journey into the Fire History of Yosemite National Park [https://uapress.arizona.edu/book/pyrocene-park]. Tom Nichols was the chief of fire and aviation for the National Park Service from 2005-2014. Worked in NPS from 1977-2014. Note: I very clearly made a error in the video/audio with Tom’s bio noting his position with the NPS was from 2015 to 2014—the correct dates are 2005 to 2014. Cramming for the Apocalypse is a reader-supported publication. To receive new posts and support my work, consider becoming a free or paid subscriber. Get full access to Cramming for the Apocalypse at crammingfortheapocalypse.substack.com/subscribe [https://crammingfortheapocalypse.substack.com/subscribe?utm_medium=podcast&utm_campaign=CTA_4]

Charm of the Wilderness Ep. 5 - Diversity in the Outdoors and National Parks with KangJae Jerry Lee

As you’re reading or listening to this, I will be exploring Yellowstone National Park with my family. It’s the perfect on-theme activity for this series! So while I’m out with my family exploring America’s first national park, please enjoy a couple more episodes of the Charm of the Wilderness [https://open.substack.com/pub/charmofthewilderness] series. In the meantime, I hope you’re off on some fun summer adventures and I’ll be back with more written content in a couple of weeks! When discussing and writing about the outdoors, there’s always an elephant in the room: the sheer Whiteness of the outdoors space. The major outdoor brands have admittedly struggled to diversify, and there’s a particular White Male Broey-ness that has always made me feel uncomfortable with the whole industry. I wrote about that a few months ago as well [https://charmofthewilderness.substack.com/p/flipping-the-script-on-outdoor-narratives]. Things are changing, though, but it’s largely been led by people of color who have carved out their corner of the internet and the industry (I’ll include some links of folks to follow below). One area, though, where diversity in the outdoors has lagged, but is largely unacknowledged, is in the national parks. This, of course, is an extension of the general lack of diversity in outdoor spaces, but it’s important because these are federally run spaces that should be by and for all people. Yet they don’t represent the diversity of our nation. That’s why I wanted to bring on KangJae Jerry Lee to the podcast, as he is one of a little more than a dozen researchers specifically looking at diversity in the outdoors. In 2021, he and his colleagues published a study [https://faculty.cnr.ncsu.edu/jerrylee/wp-content/uploads/sites/23/2022/07/2021-Xiao-nonvisitor-JLR.pdf] they conducted about who does and does not visit the National Park Service units. They found that Black, Hispanic, and lower-income folks were least likely to visit compared to White respondents and that there was an increased concern about safety, and preferred alternate vacation locations such as sporting events, theme parks, and socially and culturally oriented destinations. Also, among those demographics, there was less knowledge about the NPS units. Jerry and I talk all about this on the episode as well as his book, Violent and Verdant: Systemic Injustice in Public Parks in the U.S. [https://www.routledge.com/Violent-and-Verdant-Systemic-Injustice-in-Public-Parks-in-the-US/Lee/p/book/9781032661926], which expands upon the research about diversity in the NPS units and generally about how White people have segregated and dominated outdoor and green spaces in both urban and rural areas. Check out Jerry’s book from the library and learn more about him here [https://health.utah.edu/news/2026/04/dr-jerry-lee-examines-hidden-histories-of-us-public-parks-new-book]. And as promised, here are some of the people and BIPOC-focused organizations to check out to see how they’re advocating for diversifying the outdoors: * Melanin Basecamp [https://www.melaninbasecamp.com/] * Afro Outdoors [https://outdoorafro.org/] * Biking While Black [https://open.substack.com/pub/bikingwhileblack] (full disclosure, I work on the communications with BWB!) * Latino Outdoors [https://latinooutdoors.org/] * José González [https://www.josegagonzalez.com/] (not to be confused with the well-known musician :) ). * Teresa Baker [https://www.instagram.com/teresabaker11/] * Nelson Holland [https://www.instagram.com/fatblackandgettinit/] Put any recommendations you have in the comments as well Now enjoy the episode! Cramming for the Apocalypse is a reader-supported publication. To receive new posts and support my work, consider becoming a free or paid subscriber. Get full access to Cramming for the Apocalypse at crammingfortheapocalypse.substack.com/subscribe [https://crammingfortheapocalypse.substack.com/subscribe?utm_medium=podcast&utm_campaign=CTA_4]

Charm of the Wilderness Ep. 4 - National Park History & Advocacy with Will De Man

In the aftermath of what’s been dubbed the “Valentine’s Day Massacre,” [https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2025/mar/01/public-land-stewards-loss-job] where the Trump Administration unceremoniously fired thousands of federal workers, Will C. De Man [https://open.substack.com/users/290909783-will-c-de-man?utm_source=mentions]’s social media platform skyrocketed thanks to a post on Instagram [https://www.instagram.com/p/DGJspZ5Ob2m/?utm_source=ig_web_copy_link&igsh=MzRlODBiNWFlZA==] expressing his empathy for the park rangers who lost their jobs. As a seventh-grade history teacher who also wrote the book A Short History of the National Parks: The Southeast [https://bookshop.org/p/books/a-short-history-of-the-national-parks-brief-stories-of-america-s-biggest-landscapes-will-c-de-man/972f96a6dbb19d8a?ean=9798218187293&next=t], he hadn’t seen himself as an “advocate,” per se, but suddenly, with that one post, that is exactly what he became. Since then, not only has Will written another book (published last month!), Creating the National Parks: Yellowstone, Glacier and Grand Teton [https://bookshop.org/p/books/creating-the-national-parks-yellowstone-glacier-and-grand-teton-de-man/04252cacb3af574c?ean=9798995201106&next=t&next=t&affiliate=115368], but he has also become one of the prominent content creators on social media helping to spread the word about the stripping down of our public lands by this Administration. In this week’s episode, I talk with Will all about how he got here, interesting facts and information he’s learned while researching his books, how to advocate for your favorite public lands, and his favorite national park. You can find Will at nationalparkhistory.substack.com [https://nationalparkhistory.substack.com/], www.nationalparkhistory.com, on Instagram at nationalparkhistory [https://www.instagram.com/nationalparkhistory/], and you can find both [https://bookshop.org/p/books/a-short-history-of-the-national-parks-brief-stories-of-america-s-biggest-landscapes-will-c-de-man/972f96a6dbb19d8a?ean=9798218187293&next=t&next=t&affiliate=115368] his books [https://bookshop.org/p/books/creating-the-national-parks-yellowstone-glacier-and-grand-teton-de-man/04252cacb3af574c?ean=9798995201106&next=t&next=t&affiliate=115368] on Bookshop.com. Cramming for the Apocalypse is a reader-supported publication. To receive new posts and support my work, consider becoming a free or paid subscriber. Get full access to Cramming for the Apocalypse at crammingfortheapocalypse.substack.com/subscribe [https://crammingfortheapocalypse.substack.com/subscribe?utm_medium=podcast&utm_campaign=CTA_4]

Charm of the Wilderness - Ep. 3 - Indigenous History of Yellowstone National Park and Beyond with Shane Doyle

In January 2021, The Smithsonian Magazine published an article called “The Lost History of Yellowstone [https://www.smithsonianmag.com/history/lost-history-yellowstone-180976518/].” I was already in the middle of an awakening about the origins of how the land of North America became settler land (i.e., it was stolen from Indigenous peoples). The article interviews and follows researchers who had recently uncovered artifacts that proved what is now called Yellowstone National Park was a major thoroughfare for Native communities traveling through the Northern Plains region. These artifacts were not only interesting archeology, but they proved that the land so many of us were taught was uninhabited before it became a national park was, in fact, inhabited, and it was sacred ground. It thwarted the myth that we were all sold, which actually covered up the atrocities committed by the U.S. government to force Native peoples out of the region. In that story, then-research associate, Shane Doyle, who is a member of the Apsaalooke (Crow) Nation, was also interviewed. The story’s author, Andrew Geiger read a quote from a current-day Yellowstone brochure to Doyle and his colleague Doug MacDonald: “When you watch animals in Yellowstone, you glimpse the world as it was before humans.” Geiger notes that Doyle burst out laughing and responded: “The park is a slap in the face to Native people. There is almost no mention of the dispossession and violence that happened. We have essentially been erased from the park, and that leads to a lot of hard feelings, although we do love to go to Yellowstone and reminisce about our ancestors living there in a good way.” I have continued to go back to this story time and again and knew that I wanted to talk with Shane for this book and podcast. So when Betsy Gaines Quammen told me that she and Shane were also friends (they both live in Boseman!) I was thrilled. Since then, Shane has gone on to write a ton about Indigenous history and is doing so much for his community in Boseman. I’m excited for you to learn from him in this podcast. Shane is in the process of planning a Tipi Village in Yellowstone for September 2026, which is meant to celebrate the Indigenous connection to the park. Stay tuned for more information on that. For more of Shane’s writing, check out these stories: * Land of Steam | National Parks Conservation Association [https://www.npca.org/articles/3330-land-of-steam] * Commemorating Yellowstone’s 150th Birthday with the Park’s ‘First Family’ | National Parks Conservation Association [https://www.npca.org/articles/3075-commemorating-yellowstone-s-150th-birthday-with-the-park-s-first-family] * Actors: Making Meaning and Medicine in the Land of the Burning Ground | [https://www.mtoutlaw.com/actors-making-meaning-and-medicine-in-the-land-of-the-burning-ground/]Mountain Outlaw [https://www.mtoutlaw.com/actors-making-meaning-and-medicine-in-the-land-of-the-burning-ground/] * Brilliance and Beauty: Celebrating the Gift of a Blackfoot Map [https://www.distinctlymontana.com/brilliance-and-beauty-celebrating-gift-blackfoot-map] | Distinctly Montana * Following the Footsteps | [https://outsidebozeman.com/culture/following-the-footsteps]Outside Bozeman [https://outsidebozeman.com/culture/following-the-footsteps] * Above the Sky | [https://bigskyjournal.com/above-the-sky/]Big Sky Journal [https://bigskyjournal.com/above-the-sky/] Cramming for the Apocalypse is a reader-supported publication. To receive new posts and support my work, consider becoming a free or paid subscriber. Get full access to Cramming for the Apocalypse at crammingfortheapocalypse.substack.com/subscribe [https://crammingfortheapocalypse.substack.com/subscribe?utm_medium=podcast&utm_campaign=CTA_4]

Charm of the Wilderness Ep. 2 - Public Lands & American Mythologies with Betsy Gaines Quammen

Hello Crammers! I’m excited to bring you the rest of the Charm of the Wildrness podcast directly to your feeds! We’ve gotten some great traction over on the podcast platforms, but many of you haven’t had the chance to hear from the amazing people I brought to the podcast, so here we are in your feed. I’ll be publishing a couple of episodes per week, so you get to hear all 9 episodes of this series and the amazing people I got to talk with. This week I talk with Betsy Gaines Quammen [https://substack.com/profile/800224-betsy-gaines-quammen] about public lands and her book American Zion! When my family was traveling to the National Parks in Southern Utah last November, I happened to be reading American Zion: Cliven Bundy, God, & Public Lands in the West [https://bookshop.org/p/books/american-zion-cliven-bundy-god-public-lands-in-the-west-betsy-gaines-quammen/a44b86f6c0c1cf1a] by Betsy Gaines Quammen [https://open.substack.com/users/800224-betsy-gaines-quammen?utm_source=mentions], and I became a little bit obsessed. The moment I put it down, I emailed Betsy to interview her for the book I’m working on and to invite her to be one of my inaugural guests for the podcast. I’m excited for you to hear more from Betsy because she’s pretty badass and such a fun person. American Zion was her first book in 2020, so lucky you get a whole set of books to read of hers, all of which focus in some way on the mythologies we tell ourselves in the American West. Here are links to her books and other resources we mention in this episode. Betsy’s Books: * This Haunted Land: Reckoning with Ghosts and Stories that Shape America [https://bookshop.org/p/books/this-haunted-land-reckoning-with-ghosts-and-the-stories-that-shape-america-betsy-gaines-quammen/f78aa93f53ca70a2?ean=9798890920478&next=t] (Forthcoming September 2026, Torrey House Press) — PRE-ORDER NOW! * True West: Myth and Mending on the Far Side of America [https://bookshop.org/p/books/true-west-myth-and-mending-on-the-far-side-of-america-betsy-gaines-quammen/28ea350c6c1b2681?ean=9781948814874&next=t] (2023, Torrey House Press) * American Zion: Cliven Bundy, God, & Public Lands in the West [https://bookshop.org/p/books/american-zion-cliven-bundy-god-public-lands-in-the-west-betsy-gaines-quammen/a44b86f6c0c1cf1a] (2020, Torrey House Press) Other Resources Referenced: * Bundyville [https://www.opb.org/news/article/bundyville-occupation-podcast/]Podcast [https://www.opb.org/news/article/bundyville-occupation-podcast/] — produced by Oregon Public Broadcasting and created and hosted by Leah Sotille [https://www.leahsottile.com/]. This is a great deep-dive into the Bundy family and links the events they led to Trump’s America. * Public Lands & Grazing investigative report [https://www.hcn.org/free-range/] by High Country News and ProPublica Find Betsy Online www.betsygainesquammen.com [https://www.betsygainesquammen.com/] @ betsygainesquammen [https://www.instagram.com/betsygainesquammen] Cramming for the Apocalypse is a reader-supported publication. To receive new posts and support my work, consider becoming a free or paid subscriber. Get full access to Cramming for the Apocalypse at crammingfortheapocalypse.substack.com/subscribe [https://crammingfortheapocalypse.substack.com/subscribe?utm_medium=podcast&utm_campaign=CTA_4]