Leah and Angela Talk Documentation, Dibels, and Dignifying Learners

The Grey Space Within: Shame, Agency, and How We Grow as Educators

Leah and Angela reunite for the season finale to debrief episodes 9–11 and weave together the month's biggest ideas. They reflect on Stella Villalba's concept of kid watching, Angela's solo episode on self-observation, and Leah's episode on seeing others more fully — and find a surprising thread connecting all three: the discomfort and richness of not knowing what you'll find when you slow down and look honestly. WHAT WE EXPLORE IN THIS EPISODE Kid watching as a gray space Stella's words about kid watching are powerful precisely because they are unpredictable — and how that same messiness applies when we turn observation inward on ourselves. Shame and the reading wars How urgency to close research gaps has sometimes shamed educators who dedicated careers to doing their best — and why calling people out rarely creates the change we're hoping for. Context, capitalism, and guru culture A candid conversation about money, professional pedestals, and why research divorced from human context isn't as useful as it sounds. Teachers have more power than they think Leah shares a formative lesson from professor Sonia Nieto — and both hosts reflect on what it means to gather your own evidence, act without waiting for permission, and trust your classroom as a data source. A season goodbye from Angela Angela shares that she'll be stepping back as co-host, and both Leah and Angela reflect on what this first season has taught them about learning in public. REFERENCED IN THIS EPISODE * Episode 9 — Guest: Stella Villalba on kid watching * Episode 10 — Angela's solo reflection on self-observation * Episode 11 — Leah's episode on seeing others more fully * Kelly Cartwright's active view of reading * Sonia Nieto, educator and author * Olivia Wall, podcast mentor Grey Matters returns in September with Season 2. Until then — stay comfortable being in the gray. For questions and thoughts about the podcast: greymatters26@gmail.com [greymatters26@gmail.com] Ways to get in touch with Angela: * Website [https://www.angelastockman.com/] * Facebook [https://www.facebook.com/AngelaMStockman] * LinkedIn [https://www.linkedin.com/in/angelastockman/] * Instagram [https://www.instagram.com/angela__stockman/] * Substack [https://substack.com/@angelastockman] Ways to get in touch with Leah: * Facebook [https://www.facebook.com/groups/3458003700963828] * LinkedIn [https://www.linkedin.com/in/leah-mermelstein-consulting-042a8a18/] * Instagram [https://www.instagram.com/leahmermelsteinconsulting/] * Substack [https://leahmermelstein.substack.com/]

Stretching Our Thinking — From Idea to Real Dialogue

In this solo episode, Leah Mermelstein builds on insights from Stella Villalba (Episode 9) and Angela Stockman (Episode 10) to explore a question that feels simple but is profoundly complex: What does it actually look like to learn from people who think differently than we do? Leah dives into the “how” of meaningful dialogue, offering practical, human-centered strategies for educators and leaders alike, including: * Suspending judgment as a deliberate, actionable protocol * Embracing humility and courage in professional conversations * Moving from parallel talk to mutual influence * Creating classrooms and workplaces where both teachers and students expect to be changed through dialogue For questions and thoughts about the podcast: greymatters26@gmail.com [greymatters26@gmail.com] Ways to get in touch with Angela: * Website [https://www.angelastockman.com/] * Facebook [https://www.facebook.com/AngelaMStockman] * LinkedIn [https://www.linkedin.com/in/angelastockman/] * Instagram [https://www.instagram.com/angela__stockman/] * Substack [https://substack.com/@angelastockman] Ways to get in touch with Leah: * Facebook [https://www.facebook.com/groups/3458003700963828] * LinkedIn [https://www.linkedin.com/in/leah-mermelstein-consulting-042a8a18/] * Instagram [https://www.instagram.com/leahmermelsteinconsulting/] * Substack [https://leahmermelstein.substack.com/] Next Up: Episode 12 — Leah and Angela return together to continue exploring the gray spaces of learning and dialogue. Research and References: * Dr. Katy Anthes’ Forward Framework [https://www.pebc.org/dr-katy-anthes-to-lead-groundbreaking-new-initiative-forward-from-polarization-to-progress/]: strategies for turning polarization into productive disagreement * Research from More in Common [https://www.moreincommon.com/]on reducing division and fostering understanding * Additional podcast [https://www.buzzsprout.com/1890886/episodes/16877813?fbclid=IwY2xjawQ6bkZleHRuA2FlbQIxMQBicmlkETFiVFNEUmFmQ2R6eWl4OTVIc3J0YwZhcHBfaWQQMjIyMDM5MTc4ODIwMDg5MgABHhZYE9LS7p1pp6UXyXsk29K1M44GjSCsjj1-XqLBgyQcMY4xd-fQOxjtN_Up_aem_WK0qQtC-nioAtHqmcRV7Iw] about this topic by the amazing Olivia Wahl * Leah's Substack article [https://leahmermelstein.substack.com/p/weve-been-missing-half-the-conversation?r=4uwjft] ----------------------------------------

Watching Ourselves Grow: Building Identity Capital in Circumstances We Didn't Choose

If you're following us here on Grey Matters, then you're likely a teacher who watches learners closely. You pay attention, and you lean in to listen. You've likely built your whole practice around that quality of attention. But when did you last turn it on yourself? In this episode, Angela reflects on a day of writing and making alongside educators in Dublin, Ohio and what it surfaced about the habitats we come from, the constraints we're living inside of right now, and the identity capital we're building whether we've chosen our circumstances or not. She explores naturalist writing as a tool for self-knowledge, the difference between accepting difficult circumstances and elevating them, and what happened when she brought AI into her graduate classroom this semester in ways that made her a closer reader of her students' work and a more present teacher, too. This one is for those of you who are doing a lot and feeling the weight of it all. The educators who are still curious, still growing, still trying to stay true to something — even inside of conditions you likely wouldn't have chosen. For questions and thoughts about the podcast: greymatters26@gmail.com [greymatters26@gmail.com] Ways to get in touch with Angela: * Website [https://www.angelastockman.com/] * Facebook [https://www.facebook.com/AngelaMStockman] * LinkedIn [https://www.linkedin.com/in/angelastockman/] * Instagram [https://www.instagram.com/angela__stockman/] * Substack [https://substack.com/@angelastockman] Ways to get in touch with Leah: * Facebook [https://www.facebook.com/groups/3458003700963828] * LinkedIn [https://www.linkedin.com/in/leah-mermelstein-consulting-042a8a18/] * Instagram [https://www.instagram.com/leahmermelsteinconsulting/] * Substack [https://leahmermelstein.substack.com/]

Following the Child: Kid Watching, Listening, and the Art of Going Slow

What if slowing down wasn't a luxury — but the very thing that lets you go deeper, faster? In this episode, Leah and Angela sit down with Stella Villalba, educator, writer, and PhD student whose work lives at the intersection of language, literacy, culture, and equity. Stella traces a through-line from her earliest years teaching in Asunción, Paraguay, where she first encountered the concept of kid watching, through her deep engagement with the Reggio Emilia philosophy of listening — and into a forthcoming book that asks what conferring might look like if we actually followed the child instead of the teaching agenda we carried in with us. Hear stories about what children reveal when we sit in silence long enough to let them answer, explore the tension between mandated scripted curriculum and genuine teacher agency, and consider what it would mean to treat a child's storytelling — across cultures, languages, and modes — as real evidence of what they know and can do. Whether you're a teacher trying to hold your professional convictions inside a scripted curriculum, a coach wondering how listening and observing became skills we forgot to teach, or an educator searching for community with people who think differently and push your thinking — this episode will challenge you to ask whose composing counts, whose story gets followed, and what becomes possible when we stop treating children like empty buckets waiting to be filled. For questions and thoughts about the podcast: greymatters26@gmail.com [greymatters26@gmail.com] Ways to get in touch with Angela: * Website [https://www.angelastockman.com/] * Facebook [https://www.facebook.com/AngelaMStockman] * LinkedIn [https://www.linkedin.com/in/angelastockman/] * Instagram [https://www.instagram.com/angela__stockman/] * Substack [https://substack.com/@angelastockman] Ways to get in touch with Leah: * Facebook [https://www.facebook.com/groups/3458003700963828] * LinkedIn [https://www.linkedin.com/in/leah-mermelstein-consulting-042a8a18/] * Instagram [https://www.instagram.com/leahmermelsteinconsulting/] * Substack [https://leahmermelstein.substack.com/] Show Notes and References: Kidwatching: Documenting Children's Literacy Development [https://www.heinemann.com/products/kidwatching-e00461.aspx]by Yetta Goodman and Gretchen Owocki

Leah and Angela Talk Documentation, Dibels, and Dignifying Learners

What does it actually mean to dignify learning — for the learner and for the teacher, too? In this episode, Angela and Leah return to questions that stayed with them in the week's following their conversation Melinda in episode 5. They dig into the tensions between the tools we use, the values we share, and the necessary work of dignifying learners and learning by helping them lean into frustration. They reflect on what instruments like DIBELS can and cannot tell us, and explore how curiosity — rather than compliance — might be the antidote to so much that ails us and a key to preventing burnout. This is a conversation about seeing learners fully, sitting with productive complexity, and finding the small, sustainable practices that dignify so much of what can often feel like failure--when it shouldn't. For questions and thoughts about the podcast: greymatters26@gmail.com [greymatters26@gmail.com] Ways to get in touch with Angela: * Website [https://www.angelastockman.com/] * Facebook [https://www.facebook.com/AngelaMStockman] * LinkedIn [https://www.linkedin.com/in/angelastockman/] * Instagram [https://www.instagram.com/angela__stockman/] * Substack [https://substack.com/@angelastockman] Ways to get in touch with Leah: * Facebook [https://www.facebook.com/groups/3458003700963828] * LinkedIn [https://www.linkedin.com/in/leah-mermelstein-consulting-042a8a18/] * Instagram [https://www.instagram.com/leahmermelsteinconsulting/] * Substack [https://leahmermelstein.substack.com/] Show Notes and References: Dibels: https://dibels.uoregon.edu/ [https://dibels.uoregon.edu/] Pedagogical Documentation: https://docs.google.com/document/d/1O5WsJIF3vY0cSeowxSQSsD8nwF8_OOPYPKtesolBTAk/edit?usp=drive_link [https://docs.google.com/document/d/1O5WsJIF3vY0cSeowxSQSsD8nwF8_OOPYPKtesolBTAk/edit?usp=drive_link]