#44 NAZ Elite Coach Jack Mullaney on Building Team Culture, Alex Masai's Breakout, and Marathon Training Philosophy

#44 NAZ Elite Coach Jack Mullaney on Building Team Culture, Alex Masai's Breakout, and Marathon Training Philosophy

Jack Mullaney, head coach of NAZ Elite, joins Jacob and Rory at the Run Flagstaff studio for episode 44. Jack walked into one of the most storied professional running programs in the country two and a half years ago as a first-time head coach, inheriting a team mid-transition and figuring out how to build something that felt like his own. He talks about how he navigated that, what his five C's of coaching actually look like in practice, and why connection is the foundation he keeps coming back to. The conversation gets into the weeds on training philosophy: his three non-negotiables, why he's skeptical of silver bullet trends, and how he thinks about keeping all paces present year-round. They also deep dive into specifics of some of Jack's athletes' training and performances. Meteo Pace: Be prepared for race day by getting 20% off MeteoPace Pro at ⁠⁠⁠⁠https://www.meteopace.com/redeem⁠⁠⁠⁠ [https://www.meteopace.com/redeem] Code: OUTANDBACK ⁠⁠⁠⁠https://app.meteopace.com/redeem?code=OUTANDBACK⁠⁠⁠ [https://app.meteopace.com/redeem?code=OUTANDBACK] Goodr: Upgrade your eyewear by heading to goodr.com/OUTANDBACK to claim $10 off your first order. ⁠Join our Strava group⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ [https://www.strava.com/clubs/1749368] ⁠Buy merch: https://outandback.shop/⁠ Follow us: ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Jacob’s YouTube⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ [https://www.youtube.com/@jacobthomson4360] ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Rory’s YouTube⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ [https://www.youtube.com/@LinkletterRory]⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ [https://www.thomsontraining.run/%E2%81%A0] ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Out And Back YouTube⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ [https://www.youtube.com/@OutandBackPodcast] ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Rory’s Strava⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ [https://www.strava.com/pros/9351341] ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Jacob’s Strava⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ [https://www.strava.com/pros/18784987] ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Rory’s Instagram⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ [https://www.instagram.com/rory_linkletter/] ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Jacob’s Instagram⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ [https://www.instagram.com/jtcougars8/] ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Jacob’s Coaching Website⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ [https://www.thomsontraining.run/] ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Rory's Coaching Website⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ [https://www.letstango.run/] ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠SandyBoy Productions [https://sandyboyproductions.com/]

#43 Steph Bruce on 20 Years as a Pro, Founding Picky Bars, the Stamata Project, and What Comes Next

Steph Bruce joins Jacob and Rory at the new Run Flagstaff studio for episode 43 -- recorded six days after she and Rory both ran the Broken Arrow Sky Race Ascent. They start there, comparing notes on what is genuinely the hardest race either of them has ever done, and why neither of them were as prepared as they thought. From there the conversation opens up into Steph's full arc: the origin of Picky Bars, built out of a Eugene apartment with Lauren Fleshman and Jesse Thomas and eventually sold to Laird Hamilton's company; the NAZ Elite years and what that team did to change how professional running groups operate; her current role leading the Tracksmith Stamata project, which supports women chasing the Olympic Trials qualifier; and where she sees herself going now that trail and uphill racing have entered the picture. Nine Olympic Trials, a 15:17 5K, a 2:27 marathon, and she's still figuring out what's next. Honest, funny, and worth the full listen. Meteo Pace: Be prepared for race day by getting 20% off MeteoPace Pro at ⁠⁠⁠https://www.meteopace.com/redeem⁠⁠⁠ [https://www.meteopace.com/redeem] Code: OUTANDBACK ⁠⁠⁠https://app.meteopace.com/redeem?code=OUTANDBACK⁠⁠ [https://app.meteopace.com/redeem?code=OUTANDBACK] This episode is brought to you in part by Amazfit. Rory wore the Amazfit T-Rex 3 at Broken Arrow, where pace data goes out the window and elevation, distance, and heart rate are all that matter. Check out his full Broken Arrow race video on his personal YouTube channel here [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oyX_zK4kEXY] -- one of the best produced videos he's put out yet. Join our Strava group⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ [https://www.strava.com/clubs/1749368] ⁠Buy merch: https://outandback.shop/⁠ Follow us: ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Jacob’s YouTube⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ [https://www.youtube.com/@jacobthomson4360] ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Rory’s YouTube⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ [https://www.youtube.com/@LinkletterRory]⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ [https://www.thomsontraining.run/%E2%81%A0] ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Out And Back YouTube⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ [https://www.youtube.com/@OutandBackPodcast] ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Rory’s Strava⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ [https://www.strava.com/pros/9351341] ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Jacob’s Strava⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ [https://www.strava.com/pros/18784987] ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Rory’s Instagram⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ [https://www.instagram.com/rory_linkletter/] ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Jacob’s Instagram⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ [https://www.instagram.com/jtcougars8/] ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Jacob’s Coaching Website⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ [https://www.thomsontraining.run/] ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Rory's Coaching Website⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ [https://www.letstango.run/] ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠SandyBoy Productions [https://sandyboyproductions.com/]

#42 Listener Q & A - Broken Arrow & MRI Update

NEW MERCH: https://outandback.shop/⁠ Jacob and Rory check in on what's been a rocky few weeks for Jacob's Achilles -- paratendon inflammation that's forced him to pull most of his summer road races and lean hard into cross training. Rory previews his Broken Arrow Sky Race Ascent debut, his first pro trail outing, and explains why he picked the climb over a longer technical race. They also run through current events: Time's Most Influential list snubbing Noah Lyles, Cape Town joining the World Marathon Majors, the Kenyan takeover of NCAA distance running, and that bicarb ad. Then it's a full listener Q&A -- 23 questions covering rest weeks, double threshold training, shoe contracts, beer mile predictions, podcast white whales, and the worst training advice circulating online right now. goodr: Upgrade your eyewear by heading to goodr.com/OUTANDBACK [http://goodr.com/OUTANDBACK] to claim $10 off your first order. Meteo Pace: Be prepared for race day by getting 20% off MeteoPace Pro at ⁠⁠https://www.meteopace.com/redeem⁠⁠ [https://www.meteopace.com/redeem] Code: OUTANDBACK ⁠⁠https://app.meteopace.com/redeem?code=OUTANDBACK⁠⁠ [https://app.meteopace.com/redeem?code=OUTANDBACK] Kava Haven: All the Buzz, None of the Booze — get 15% off your first order at ⁠⁠http://kavahaven.com/outandback⁠⁠ [http://kavahaven.com/outandback] Code: OUTANDBACK15  ⁠⁠⁠⁠Join our Strava group⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ [https://www.strava.com/clubs/1749368] ⁠Buy merch: https://outandback.shop/⁠ Follow us: ⁠⁠⁠⁠Jacob’s YouTube⁠⁠⁠⁠ [https://www.youtube.com/@jacobthomson4360] ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Rory’s YouTube⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ [https://www.youtube.com/@LinkletterRory]⁠⁠⁠⁠ ⁠⁠⁠⁠ [https://www.thomsontraining.run/%E2%81%A0] ⁠⁠⁠⁠Out And Back YouTube⁠⁠⁠⁠ [https://www.youtube.com/@OutandBackPodcast] ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Rory’s Strava⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ [https://www.strava.com/pros/9351341] ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Jacob’s Strava⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ [https://www.strava.com/pros/18784987] ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Rory’s Instagram⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ [https://www.instagram.com/rory_linkletter/] ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Jacob’s Instagram⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ [https://www.instagram.com/jtcougars8/] ⁠⁠⁠⁠Jacob’s Coaching Website⁠⁠⁠⁠ [https://www.thomsontraining.run/] ⁠⁠⁠⁠Rory's Coaching Website⁠⁠⁠⁠ [https://www.letstango.run/] ⁠⁠⁠⁠SandyBoy Productions [https://sandyboyproductions.com/]

#41 Brady Holmer - High Carb Evidence, Ketone, and How to Actually Sleep Before a Race

Brady Holmer is back for his third appearance, which officially makes him the most tenured guest in Out and Back history. He's a week out from Grandma's Marathon, coming off a stress injury and a training block built around high bike volume, durability workouts, and progression long runs in the Texas heat. The conversation covers a lot of ground: what the research actually says about high carb fueling (and where the evidence gets murky), why the crossover point matters more than oxidation rates, gel selection and why he's cycling between multiple products, a new ketone IQ study showing a 15% boost in EPO production post-exercise, and what Nomeo is actually doing in the body. Then Jacob admits he spent race night at the New York Half taking Advil PM every hour hoping to knock out, and Brady walks through what the research says about sleep before races -- including why trying harder to fall asleep is the worst thing you can do. ZBiotics: This episode is brought to you by ZBiotics, a pre-alcohol probiotic drink designed to break down the toxic byproduct that builds up in your gut when you drink -- so you can have a good night and still show up for your long run the next morning. Go to zbiotics.com/outandback, use code OUT AND BACK for 15% off your first order. Backed by a 100% money back guarantee. Meteo Pace: Be prepared for race day by getting 20% off MeteoPace Pro at ⁠⁠https://www.meteopace.com/redeem⁠⁠ [https://www.meteopace.com/redeem] Code: OUTANDBACK ⁠⁠https://app.meteopace.com/redeem?code=OUTANDBACK⁠ [https://app.meteopace.com/redeem?code=OUTANDBACK] ⁠⁠⁠Join our Strava group⁠⁠⁠⁠ [https://www.strava.com/clubs/1749368] Buy merch: https://outandback.shop/ [ ⁠https://outandback.shop/⁠] Follow us: ⁠⁠⁠Jacob’s YouTube⁠⁠⁠ [https://www.youtube.com/@jacobthomson4360] ⁠⁠⁠⁠Rory’s YouTube⁠⁠⁠⁠ [https://www.youtube.com/@LinkletterRory]⁠⁠⁠ ⁠⁠⁠ [https://www.thomsontraining.run/%E2%81%A0] ⁠⁠⁠Out And Back YouTube⁠⁠⁠ [https://www.youtube.com/@OutandBackPodcast] ⁠⁠⁠⁠Rory’s Strava⁠⁠⁠⁠ [https://www.strava.com/pros/9351341] ⁠⁠⁠⁠Jacob’s Strava⁠⁠⁠⁠ [https://www.strava.com/pros/18784987] ⁠⁠⁠⁠Rory’s Instagram⁠⁠⁠⁠ [https://www.instagram.com/rory_linkletter/] ⁠⁠⁠⁠Jacob’s Instagram⁠⁠⁠⁠ [https://www.instagram.com/jtcougars8/] ⁠⁠⁠Jacob’s Coaching Website⁠⁠⁠ [https://www.thomsontraining.run/] ⁠⁠⁠Rory's Coaching Website⁠⁠⁠ [https://www.letstango.run/] ⁠⁠⁠SandyBoy Productions [https://sandyboyproductions.com/] * Brady's training block and Grandma's Marathon prep * Durability workouts: combining bike and run * Heat training in Texas * What the research actually says about high carb fueling * Gel strategy, product lineup, and decoupling fuel from hydration * New ketone IQ study: EPO production and recovery * Nomeo: how it actually works (and what we don't know) * Sleep before a race: why trying harder makes it worse * Recovery modalities: red light, ice bath, and compression boots ranked * Rapid fire: cross training, electrolytes, and pre-race caffeine

#40 David Roche - The Rules of High Carb Training, How to Train the Gut, Fatigue Resistance, & Training the Pros

David Roche -- ultra marathoner, elite running coach, and what Rory's calling the godfather of the high carb revolution -- joins the Out and Back for episode 40. He started as a running back at Columbia, spent years coaching before ever being competitive himself, and broke the Leadville 100 course record in 2024 (and again in 2025!) largely by stress-testing the same principles he'd been building with his athletes. The conversation covers a lot of ground: how he thinks about carb intake across different race distances, why he separates hydration from fueling, the case for uphill treadmill threshold work, what unites his coaching across trail, road, and ultra, and why he keeps looking to cycling for answers the running world is slow to ask. David on Instagram [https://www.instagram.com/mountainroche/] David's Website [https://swaprunning.com] Meteo Pace: [https://swaprunning.com] Be prepared for race day by getting 20% off MeteoPace Pro at ⁠⁠https://www.meteopace.com/redeem⁠⁠ [https://www.meteopace.com/redeem] Code: OUTANDBACK ⁠⁠https://app.meteopace.com/redeem?code=OUTANDBACK⁠ [https://app.meteopace.com/redeem?code=OUTANDBACK] goodr: Upgrade your eyewear by heading to goodr.com/OUTANDBACK to claim $10 off your first order. Meteo Pace: Be prepared for race day by getting 20% off MeteoPace Pro at ⁠https://www.meteopace.com/redeem⁠ [https://www.meteopace.com/redeem] Code: OUTANDBACK ⁠https://app.meteopace.com/redeem?code=OUTANDBACK⁠ [https://app.meteopace.com/redeem?code=OUTANDBACK] Kava Haven: All the Buzz, None of the Booze — get 15% off your first order at ⁠http://kavahaven.com/outandback⁠ [http://kavahaven.com/outandback] Code: OUTANDBACK15  ⁠⁠Join our newsletter⁠⁠ [https://forms.gle/53TEaVFZjVJusoJp6] ⁠⁠⁠Join our Strava group⁠⁠⁠ [https://www.strava.com/clubs/1749368] Follow us: ⁠⁠Jacob’s YouTube⁠⁠ [https://www.youtube.com/@jacobthomson4360] ⁠⁠⁠Rory’s YouTube⁠⁠⁠ [https://www.youtube.com/@LinkletterRory]⁠⁠ ⁠⁠ [https://www.thomsontraining.run/%E2%81%A0] ⁠⁠Out And Back YouTube⁠⁠ [https://www.youtube.com/@OutandBackPodcast] ⁠⁠⁠Rory’s Strava⁠⁠⁠ [https://www.strava.com/pros/9351341] ⁠⁠⁠Jacob’s Strava⁠⁠⁠ [https://www.strava.com/pros/18784987] ⁠⁠⁠Rory’s Instagram⁠⁠⁠ [https://www.instagram.com/rory_linkletter/] ⁠⁠⁠Jacob’s Instagram⁠⁠⁠ [https://www.instagram.com/jtcougars8/] ⁠⁠Jacob’s Coaching Website⁠⁠ [https://www.thomsontraining.run/] ⁠⁠Rory's Coaching Website⁠⁠ [https://www.letstango.run/] ⁠⁠SandyBoy Productions [https://sandyboyproductions.com/]