Harman Cheema on Why Shippers Are Flooding Back to Asset Carriers (Cheema Logistics & Freightlines)

Harman Cheema on Why Shippers Are Flooding Back to Asset Carriers (Cheema Logistics & Freightlines)

or three years, asset-based carriers got beaten on price by capacity that hauled freight for half of what a real truck needed to break even. Now the cycle has turned, and the shippers who spent those years chasing the cheapest option are calling back. Harman Cheema is in a rare seat to see all of it: he runs 500 trucks and 2,000 trailers at Cheema Freightlines, plus a brokerage at Cheema Logistics approaching $100M in revenue. He's getting the calls. He's also telling a lot of them to wait their turn. Harman started Cheema Freightlines in 2006 and launched the brokerage three years later, almost by accident, when customers needed more loads covered than he had trucks for. Running both sides through this market has given him a clear read on why rates collapsed, why they're climbing back, and why this correction is different from every other one he's lived through. In this conversation he walks through the zombie capacity that set the market floor, the broker liability ruling and what it means when you do power-only, the 100% driver turnover problem nobody has solved, and why he thinks brokers are about to lose the route-guide seat they've held for a decade. He also gets into the operational reality of running an asset carrier and a brokerage under one roof: when the two businesses present a united front, when they have to be kept completely separate, and how he structures incentives so they aren't fighting each other over the same freight. What you'll learn: - Why his own brokerage was undercutting his own trucks: how the same Seattle-to-LA lane could be covered for $0.50 a mile when his fleet needed $1.25 to break even - How zombie capacity set the floor: why carriers that weren't making truck payments could haul cheaper than anyone, and why the banks let them keep running - What the broker liability ruling actually changes: why it's good news for assets, scary for brokerages, and especially exposed when you run power-only with your own trailer - Why shippers are coming back to asset carriers: how legal teams and falling-off capacity are pushing freight back toward trucks shippers can actually diligence - Why this correction is different from COVID: capacity left and isn't coming back, because the driver pipeline is being cut off rather than refilled - Why trucking has a retention problem, not a driver shortage: the fallback-career dynamic, aging owner-operators, and the dwell time that burns drivers out - Why brokers are about to lose their route-guide seat: how the cheap-capacity era let brokers act like carriers, and why that's reverting to partnership - How to run an asset carrier and a brokerage together: when to present a united front, when to keep them separate, and how diversifying debt load keeps the balance sheet healthy Time-stamped highlights: - (00:00) Intro and why Harman has a rare both-sides vantage point on the market - (00:46) The Supreme Court broker liability ruling: good for assets, scary for brokerages - (01:26) The spookier part of power-only: not knowing who's actually driving your trailer - (03:44) Why the ruling drives more opportunity to asset-based carriers - (04:01) The fleet: 500 trucks and 2,000 trailers across the western half of the country - (04:55) Why shipper legal teams will push transportation managers toward asset solutions - (05:51) Pass-through liability and why everyone is on the hook together now - (07:13) The dinner-table argument: safety-investing fleets vs. cheap capacity - (08:06) The West Coast example: $1.25 a mile to break even vs. $0.50 from the brokerage - (10:02) Zombie capacity: non-domiciled drivers, unsafe carriers, and the bank fiasco - (10:30) Why banks let upside-down trucks keep running instead of repossessing them - (11:00) Locked into cheap contracts while cheap capacity grabs the high spot loads - (11:13) The "why did you bid this in January?" conversations with customers - (13:34) The ski boat vs. the Titanic: why small carriers can pivot and big ones can't - (14:45) Spot now passing contract, renegotiating in real time, just not fast enough - (15:19) Shippers calling back and why partners who stuck around get first refusal - (17:38) Why more spot volume doesn't mean more money: there just aren't enough trucks - (18:05) The same SoCal-to-Northwest load swinging $4,500 to $7,000 in one week - (18:46) How to quote spot freight in a market that moves hour by hour - (20:14) Why this is nothing like COVID: no hope of capacity coming back - (20:51) The 100% driver turnover problem: a retention issue, not a shortage - (22:18) Playing chess with marbles: trailer pools, dwell time, and the driver who pays - (24:56) CNS Grocers vs. Costco: why an 8-10 hour dock destroys a good load - (26:05) The broken bid feedback loop: why the incumbent carrier has the shortest stick - (29:42) Why brokers became "carriers" on route guides and why that's about to reverse - (33:48) Carrier-first identity and how the combined enterprise sales team works - (36:13) The origin story: trucking in 2006, brokerage in 2009, born out of overflow - (37:43) Diversifying debt load: how the brokerage keeps the asset balance sheet healthy - (45:31) His take on autonomous and electric trucks and when they'll pencil - (49:20) What Harman is most excited about over the next twelve months Guest: Harman Cheema — President & CEO, Cheema Freightlines & Cheema Logistics Harman founded Cheema Freightlines in 2006 and launched Cheema Logistics in 2009 after customers began asking him to cover more freight than his trucks could carry. Today he runs an asset fleet of 500 trucks and 2,000 trailers across the western U.S. alongside a brokerage approaching $100M in revenue, giving him a firsthand read on both sides of every market shift.

How Will Hopkins (BlackBox Logistics) Got Fired Right Before Christmas Then Built a $70M Brokerage

Most freight founders start with a plan. Will Hopkins started by getting fired right before Christmas, then spent a year on the carrier side dispatching loads off truck stops before he was legally allowed to broker again. He calls it the best thing that ever happened to his career. Will Hopkins co-founded BlackBox out of his business partner's living room in Birmingham during COVID and has built it into a $70M flatbed brokerage. He grew up in the industry, started at a Roadrunner agency at 19, and along with his partners Logan and William, took the leap into ownership before any of them had ever managed a single employee.  In this conversation, Will breaks down what actually got BlackBox unstuck at the $35-50M plateau, the team system they built to escape the cradle-to-grave trap, and what he's seeing in the flatbed market right now. He also gets into one of the more level-headed reads on the C.H. Robinson Supreme Court case I've heard, why he thinks the small-to-mid-sized broker death narrative is overblown, and the contrarian view that the AI data center boom is a much smaller driver of flatbed demand than the headlines suggest. What you'll learn: * Why getting fired was the best thing that ever happened to Will's career and how a year on the carrier side shaped how BlackBox operates today * The team system BlackBox built to escape cradle-to-grave brokering and the seller-level career path that scales talent * How they got unstuck at the $35-50M plateau by documenting tribal knowledge into institutional process * Why Will believes the flatbed market is tight because of capacity exiting, not data center demand * The discipline of refusing to believe your own market story in good cycles and bad ones * How BlackBox uses Eastern European carrier sales talent and the productivity unlock it creates * Why Will isn't losing sleep over the C.H. Robinson Supreme Court decision and what actually changes for small-to-mid-sized brokers * What three young founders learned about running a business none of them had ever planned to start Time-stamped highlights: * (00:00) Intro and how Will and Jesse have been following each other's content * (01:09) Will's take on the C.H. Robinson Supreme Court decision and why BlackBox isn't reacting much * (02:23) Why the small-to-mid-sized broker extinction narrative is overblown * (05:41) Why freight was always a strange exception on intermediary liability and how that's now resetting * (08:30) Documentation, common law, and what "reasonable" carrier vetting will end up meaning * (11:09) The insurance math and why Will doesn't see this threatening BlackBox's bottom line * (12:50) Mega carriers, road check theater, and why announcing inspections still works * (15:51) The record month that meant nothing: average revenue per load went from $2K to $3K, but capacity drove it * (17:02) Why flatbed is tighter than van and reefer right now * (18:11) The data center myth: only 5% of construction flatbed moves, but feels like 100% because AI is everywhere * (21:25) The two-week ceiling on freight market predictions and why Will stopped predicting * (22:17) Picking the most useful frame for the market and refusing to believe your own story * (25:55) What COVID hiring taught BlackBox about discipline through the cycle * (28:15) Hitting the 35-50M plateau and what "what got you here won't get you there" actually meant * (29:17) Building the seller-level career path and the team system that broke them out * (30:38) Turning tribal knowledge into institutional knowledge across the floor * (31:20) Partner Logan's internal tooling: Slack-based load previews, data entry bots, the BlackBox Dash * (32:53) Why the pod model beats the pure split model on customer ownership * (35:18) Building support around great account managers so they don't burn out * (36:31) Hiring green talent vs. plug-and-play recruits and how the freight recession brought BlackBox top operators * (37:29) Why Eastern European carrier sales reps have been a game changer * (40:16) Carrier ownership inside a pod system and the trade-offs BlackBox accepts * (44:24) The metric that separates top carrier reps: loads per carrier, not loads per rep * (45:47) The origin story: working at Roadrunner at 19 and the moment three roommates decided to leave * (47:25) Logan quitting on the spot, William and Will getting fired, and the non-compete that forced the dispatch detour * (47:50) The year dispatching for owner-operators and brand-new authorities * (48:09) Starting BlackBox in William's living room with no AC in Birmingham * (49:15) What was harder than expected about owning a business at 22 * (51:54) Three founders, three roles, and the rare stable equilibrium of a founding team without overlap * (55:13) What gets Will most excited about the next 12 months and the gap-vs-gain mental model Guest: Will Hopkins — Co-founder, BlackBox Will co-founded BlackBox with Logan and William in Birmingham, Alabama after the three of them were forced out of a Roadrunner agency before Christmas. They spent a year running a dispatching company through the back end of their non-competes, then launched BlackBox out of a living room during COVID. They've since scaled the company into a $70M flatbed brokerage.

Greg Sanders (RDS Capacity Solutions) on Building a Brokerage Through the Worst Freight Market in a Decade

Starting a brokerage from scratch is hard. Starting one at 55, after a 30-year career running brokerage at Schneider, OHL, Redwood, and ITS Logistics, is a different kind of bet — and doing it 18 months before the market collapses into a multi-year freight recession is something else entirely. Greg Sanders has lived all of it. He grew up in the family business, an intermodal company his dad sold to Landstar in 1994. He spent 12 years at Schneider, helped build their brokerage division alongside Aaron Benzeland, and later sold the OHL brokerage to Brad Jacobs as XPO was just getting off the ground. After a run as CEO of ITS Logistics in Reno, Greg launched RDS Capacity Solutions in 2019 — partnered with the original RDS family (his dad's old attorney from the Landstar deal), brought in operators with skin in the game, and built a brokerage that returned all startup capital in six months and was profitable in year one. Then COVID hit, the market ripped, and the 3.5-year slump arrived. In this conversation, Greg breaks down what it actually takes to build a brokerage that survives a cycle like the one we just came through — the partner model, the pod structure, the recruiting playbook he learned from TQL, and why he believes the next three to five years will separate the brokers who integrate AI thoughtfully from the ones who don't. He also gets into his work with the TIA on broker liability, the F4A case in front of the Supreme Court, and what's broken about how FMCSA regulates carriers today. What you'll learn: * Why Greg started over at 55 and what made the RDS opportunity different from starting from zero * The partner model behind RDS: skin in the game, equity ownership, and how Jeremy Inksroom grew his book 5x after joining * Why the pod structure beats the traditional sales-and-carrier split on a big broker floor * How field generals get paid on contribution margin, not top line — and why that changes everything * What Greg learned from Brad Jacobs about M&A execution and why simplicity in the message wins on Wall Street * The recruiting philosophy he stole from Kerry Byrne at TQL: send the executives to campus, not HR * Why he hires athletes and looks for emotional intelligence over IQ * How to integrate AI without alienating the operators who built the business * The TIA's case on broker liability, the C.H. Robinson Supreme Court case, and what's at stake under F4A * Why FMCSA has failed at carrier regulation and what's driving the chameleon carrier problem Time-stamped highlights: * (00:00) Intro: filming live at TIA Capital Ideas, hosted on borrowed Freight Caviar equipment * (05:43) Greg's origin story: growing up in the family intermodal business, the two rules his dad set before he could join * (07:24) Building the Southern California office for ITCO at 24 years old * (08:28) Selling his dad's company to Landstar in 1994 and the Landstar agency model * (11:46) Why Greg joined Schneider for "his MBA in trucking" and what he learned about asset operations * (13:24) Don Schneider's playbook: deregulation, killing the unions early, doing it first class * (17:43) The come-to-Jesus moment when Schneider asked him to move to Green Bay * (19:02) Joining OHL, running North American transportation, and learning private equity from the inside * (21:22) Selling the OHL brokerage to Brad Jacobs at the very start of XPO * (23:24) What stood out about how Brad Jacobs transacts and integrates * (25:47) Building the Redwood brand from a collection of acronyms (and why the URL was still available) * (28:10) Managed trans vs. brokerage: the trade-offs and why brokerage executes better * (32:02) Joining ITS Logistics in Reno, becoming CEO, and getting "sideways with a board member" * (34:21) The dynamics of family office ownership and what changes when the board takes over * (37:11) Starting RDS Capacity Solutions at 55 — the brand, the asset connection, and the partner setup * (41:20) Why Mark Casey and Jeremy Inksroom — and how Jeremy grew his book 5x * (42:19) Returning all startup capital in six months and being profitable in year one * (43:19) Surviving the 3.5-year freight slump * (44:09) Recruiting philosophy: what Greg learned from Kerry Byrne at TQL * (46:05) Why he hires athletes and looks for emotional intelligence over IQ * (48:59) The pod model: building $PnLs around field generals and paying on contribution margin * (51:13) Why traditional sales-and-carrier splits break at scale * (56:19) Becoming an expert in an industry, not an equipment type * (59:48) Integrating AI without alienating the team — and why this is the next three-to-five-year challenge * (01:05:49) Greg's involvement with the TIA and the three legs of advocacy, education, and networking * (01:08:13) Broker liability, the C.H. Robinson Supreme Court case, and what F4A protection means * (01:11:38) The chameleon carrier problem and how FMCSA has failed to regulate it * (01:20:09) What gets Greg fired up: the movement of money, the movement of information, and what the next five years look like Guest: Greg Sanders — President, RDS Capacity Solutions Greg has spent his career building and leading brokerages, with executive roles at Schneider, OHL (acquired by XPO), Redwood Logistics, and ITS Logistics. He grew up in the family intermodal business his father sold to Landstar in 1994, and launched RDS Capacity Solutions in 2019 in partnership with the founding RDS family. He's been a member of the TIA since 1994 and serves on the board.

Jordan Strawn (Werner) on Building a $400M Brokerage and What Actually Matters in M&A

Most freight M&A deals look great on paper—but execution is where they succeed or fall apart. So what actually matters when you’re integrating teams, systems, culture, and operations while the market is turning against you?  Jordan Strawn has lived every phase of that journey. He joined Reed Transport Services in 2015 when it was a $70M Tampa-based brokerage and helped scale it to $400M before Werner acquired the business in 2022. As COO through the growth years and now Senior Vice President of Logistics at Werner, Jordan has seen the full arc firsthand: scaling the company, navigating buyer interest, managing diligence, and leading integration on the other side of the deal. In this conversation, Jordan shares what made Reed an attractive acquisition target, how they built with discipline instead of chasing growth for growth’s sake, and what it really takes to make M&A work after the deal closes.  He also breaks down the operational mindset behind successful integration, why process matters more than buzzwords, how Werner structured the business post-acquisition, and why power-only and refrigerated logistics are strategic parts of the company’s broader offering.  What you’ll learn:  - Why Reed became an attractive acquisition target: how service quality, repeatable execution, and strength in food & beverage and produce helped make the company stand out  - What actually matters in M&A: how leadership teams think through diligence, cultural fit, employee continuity, and post-close execution  - How to scale without losing focus: why Reed prioritized lane density, operational discipline, and core competencies over chasing every growth opportunity  - What changes after an acquisition: the shift from operating a private business to leading inside a public company environment  - Why process is a competitive advantage: how documented workflows, training, accountability, and tech-enabled visibility create operational consistency  - How Werner approached integration: aligning teams, structures, and systems while keeping the business moving through a difficult freight market  - The role of PowerLink and refrigerated power-only: how Werner’s trailer network creates capacity advantages and sticky carrier relationships  - How multi-modal sales structure works: why centralized account ownership supported by mode specialists can improve the customer experience  Time-stamped highlights: - (00:00) Intro: Jordan’s triathlon training, upcoming Olympic race, and Ironman commitment  - (03:53) The Reed origin story and how the company grew from its early days into a meaningful brokerage platform  - (05:25) Jordan’s transition from UPS Freight into Reed and the move from operations into sales leadership - (06:16) Scaling Reed from $70M to $400M and the philosophy behind that growth  - (06:58) The Werner acquisition and what made Reed strategically attractive  - (08:22) Why Reed’s food & beverage and produce freight complemented Werner’s existing network  - (09:43) Why process matters in both sales and operations  - (13:04) What the acquisition process felt like while still running the business day to day  - (14:48) Why there was strong buyer interest in Reed and how the team evaluated fit  - (16:16) Building for quality, not just top-line growth  - (18:45) Reed’s core competency in refrigerated truckload, food & beverage, and produce  - (24:28) Jordan’s mindset during the sale and why team continuity mattered  - (26:45) The challenge of preserving culture through M&A  - (30:30) What actually changes after the deal closes: alignment, process, and decision-making  - (32:33) How Werner structured sales and account management post-acquisition  - (36:28) PowerLink explained and why power-only matters strategically  - (42:08) Expanding into refrigerated power-only with connected reefer technology  - (43:55) The building blocks of world-class operations  - (48:15) How teams drive compliance through visibility, feedback, and execution discipline  - (51:08) What keeps Jordan up at night: constant market change and keeping teams ready to adapt Guest Jordan Strawn — Senior Vice President of Logistics, Werner Enterprises Jordan spent nearly a decade helping scale Reed Transport Services from $70M to $400M before Werner acquired the company in 2022.  He now leads Werner’s PowerLink and truckload brokerage operations, overseeing logistics teams across multiple offices and helping guide the ongoing integration of Reed into Werner’s broader logistics platform. Prior to Reed, he spent years in operations at UPS Freight, where he developed the process-driven mindset that continues to shape his leadership approach today.

Phil Shook (Crowley) on CH Robinson's Decentralized Empire to Building Modern Brokerage

How does a 3PL evolve from a collection of entrepreneurial fiefdoms competing against each other to a unified, technology-enabled powerhouse? And what does it actually take to build exceptional operations in an industry where the basics—moving freight from A to B—haven't changed, but everything around it has? Phil Shook has lived through every major transformation in modern freight. He started at Hub Group in 1994 when supply chain wasn't even a college major, joined CH Robinson in 1997 as the 40th employee in the Chicago South office (which ballooned to over 100 in just three years), and spent 23 years watching the company evolve through decentralization, the game-changing American Backhaulers acquisition, and the shift to unified operations. He led intermodal operations for years, managed railroad relationships worth hundreds of millions, and worked closely with the Backhaulers integration team—learning both the "Robinson way" and the scrappier, more tech-forward approach that would reshape the industry. After a stint in equipment leasing staying connected to carriers and railroads, he's now leading North America land transportation at Crowley, building a brokerage business from the ground up with truckload, LTL, intermodal, and dray—what he calls his "dream job" for the last chapter of his career. This conversation is a masterclass in operational excellence and industry evolution. Phil breaks down the intermodal business model most people don't understand, explains why internal competition at pre-2000 CH Robinson sometimes mattered more than external rivals, reveals how the Backhaulers acquisition transformed Robinson's culture and technology, and shares what actually creates sustainable competitive advantage in brokerage (hint: it's relationships, but not the way you think). He also gets into why JB Hunt became the intermodal king, what the railroad business model teaches you about capacity planning, and why great operations teams are built on trust and alignment, not complexity. **What you'll learn** - **The intermodal business model decoded**: How rail + truck combinations work, why anything 700+ miles and within 100 miles of a rail hub can save double-digit percentages, and why JB Hunt's 150,000 container fleet makes them the undisputed leader—plus the nuances that don't show up on spreadsheets (like 80% of volume shipping Thursday-Friday changing your entire cost structure). - **CH Robinson's cultural evolution**: How pre-2000 Robinson operated like franchises where offices competed against each other more than external rivals, why the 2000 American Backhaulers acquisition was "one of the most brilliant things the company ever did," and how Backhaulers' superior technology (the Express system) and individual-level entrepreneurialism reshaped Robinson into what it became. - **Why relationships create operational advantage**: Not the surface-level "does your daughter play soccer" stuff, but how understanding shipper nuances (like discovering a lane's volume all hits Thursday-Friday), building direct relationships with receivers (so late trucks still get unloaded without accessorials), and knowing warehouse schedules lets you solve problems before customers even know they exist. - **The railroad capacity planning challenge**: Why railroads historically struggled with unpredictable volume (not knowing if 100 or 400 containers would show up Chicago to LA), how they've shifted toward airline-style reservation systems to gain predictability, and why they're divesting container ownership to focus on their core competency of moving freight. - **What makes exceptional operations orgs**: Phil's framework—it's not rocket science, it's about building great teams of detail-oriented, results-focused people passionate about being the best, then aligning them around common goals. The 90% that goes well is table stakes; differentiation happens in how you handle the 10% of exceptions through problem-solving, communication, and cost management. - **Why 3PLs won the carve-out battle**: How the industry shifted from "we don't deal with brokers" to Fortune 100 companies deliberately allocating freight to 3PLs—because aggregating the 90%+ of carriers with fewer than 50 trucks into one relationship is more efficient than shippers chasing niche capacity themselves. - **Technology's real role in brokerage**: Where tech genuinely adds value (in-transit visibility ending the "where's my truck?" game, automating unstructured data from emails/faxes into workflows, proactive exception alerts) versus where human relationships and judgment still dominate—and why customers still want to reach a human who understands the consequences of failure. - **The intermodal identity crisis that wasn't**: How 20 years ago intermodal had PR problems, but now most freight that can go intermodal does—and if customers choose truckload pricing, it's a deliberate trade-off for cost certainty and recoverability (because when a train derails in Montana, there's zero recovery optionality). **Time-stamped highlights** - (00:00) From Enterprise Rent-A-Car interviews to Hub Group: Phil's accidental entry into logistics in 1994 when supply chain wasn't a college major - (03:00) Joining CH Robinson in 1997 as the 40th employee in Chicago South—which grew to 100+ in three years - (06:00) The decentralized Robinson model pre-2000: offices acting like franchises, GMs getting profit cuts, and internal competition mattering more than external - (09:00) Creating five regional intermodal operating centers in 2000, then centralizing in 2005 to manage railroad relationships - (12:00) The 2012 shift back to leading operations: getting hands dirty with customers and carriers again - (15:00) Working on the American Backhaulers acquisition and learning "the true brokerage aspect, not just the Robinson way" - (18:00) Intermodal 101: the rail + truck model, why 700+ mile lanes within 100 miles of rail hubs work, and double-digit savings potential - (21:00) Why JB Hunt went all-in on intermodal: Mr. Hunt's visionary BNSF partnership 30+ years ago and how Hunt's now the largest with 150K containers - (24:00) How intermodal works operationally: railroads own some containers (like TripLease), big players own their own fleets, chassis pools - (27:00) The railroad capacity planning problem: not knowing if 100 or 400 containers arrive Chicago-LA, versus airlines' reservation model - (30:00) Why railroads divested container ownership: focusing on core competency of moving freight, reducing cost complexity - (33:00) What share of domestic freight goes intermodal and why more doesn't: customers know about it but choose truckload for cost certainty - (36:00) The types of freight that work for intermodal: retail, F&B, transcontinental from Asia through West Coast, temp-controlled on expedited trains - (39:00) Chicago and Memphis as railroad epicenters where all lines converge; why you might only have one railroad option depending on geography - (42:00) The Backhaulers acquisition impact: their Express system "blew away" Robinson's tech, ultra-entrepreneurial culture at individual rep level - (45:00) The 2010s evolution toward "one team" Robinson: realizing external competition required focusing efforts outward, not fighting internally - (48:00) What creates sustainable success at CH Robinson: Dave Bozeman's turnaround from Wall Street skepticism to "darlings" with 30-40x multiples - (51:00) Building exceptional operations orgs: g...