The Waggle Room - Ep16 - Brian "Ponch" Rivera - There Is No Way Out

The Waggle Room - Ep20 - Philip Atkinson - Leadership Lessons from the Hive

## Episode Overview Mick is joined by Philip Atkinson — founder of Hive-Logic, executive coach, beekeeper, and author of BeeWise: 12 Leadership Lessons from a Busy Hive. Together they explore what bees can teach us about communication, continuous learning, team design, and the underrated art of ending things well. This is one episode where no bee metaphor needs forcing — it's baked in from the start. ## Key Topics - Communication in the dark: Why the waggle dance is a masterclass in consistent, repeatable messaging — and what CEOs get wrong about email - The bee career model: How bees rotate through seven distinct roles before they ever fly, and what that means for continuous learning in a world of unknown future jobs - Two types of teams: The critical difference between interdependent and extra-dependent teams, and why treating them the same is a systemic failure - Endings matter: Why organisations are brilliant at starting things and terrible at closing them — and the burnout cost of too many open apps - Don't let history restrict the future: Philip's signal — past performance, past titles, and past structures are poor guides to what's needed next - Curiosity as competitive advantage: Why killing curiosity in organisations isn't just bad for performance — it's bad for civilisation ## Where to Listen - Website: https://thewaggleroom.com [https://thewaggleroom.com] - YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/@TheWaggleRoom [https://www.youtube.com/@TheWaggleRoom] - Spotify: https://open.spotify.com/show/TheWaggleRoom [https://open.spotify.com/show/TheWaggleRoom] - Apple Podcasts: https://podcasts.apple.com/gb/podcast/the-waggle-room/id1879089102 [https://podcasts.apple.com/gb/podcast/the-waggle-room/id1879089102] - Substack: https://substack.com/@mickbrian [https://substack.com/@mickbrian] ## Guest Info Philip Atkinson — Founder & Team Coach, Hive-Logic - Website: https://hive-logic.com [https://hive-logic.com] - Book: https://beewisebook.com [https://beewisebook.com] - LinkedIn: https://linkedin.com/in/philipatkinsonhivelogic [https://linkedin.com/in/philipatkinsonhivelogic] - Email: Philip@Hive-Logic.com [Philip@Hive-Logic.com] All proceeds from BeeWise go directly to [Bees for Development](https://beesfordevelopment.org [https://beesfordevelopment.org]), supporting families in developing countries to build beekeeping businesses.

The Waggle Room - Ep19 - Susie Palmer-Trew - The Everyday Change Revolution

Susie Palmer-Trew, founder of Everyday Change and author of 'The Everyday Change Playbook (because change doesn't need to be shit)', joins Mick for a refreshing conversation about making change work for real humans. From her background as a student union president to building a business that champions everyday change over transformation theatre, Susie brings a grounded, no-nonsense perspective to how organisations can actually get things done. ## Key Topics • Why we inflate everyday change into massive 'transformations' and who benefits from this theatre • The reality that most change is just normal people doing normal things in normal ways • How Big Four consultancies set the rules of the game and why we all play along • Finding leadership at every level of the organisation, not just in the C-suite • The importance of adult-to-adult conversations instead of parent-child dynamics • Using AI practically to free up time for actual human interaction ## Where to Listen - Website: https://thewaggleroom.com [https://thewaggleroom.com] - YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/@TheWaggleRoom [https://www.youtube.com/@TheWaggleRoom] - Spotify: https://open.spotify.com/show/TheWaggleRoom [https://open.spotify.com/show/TheWaggleRoom] - Apple Podcasts: https://podcasts.apple.com/gb/podcast/the-waggle-room/id1879089102 [https://podcasts.apple.com/gb/podcast/the-waggle-room/id1879089102] - Substack: https://substack.com/@mickbrian [https://substack.com/@mickbrian] ## Guest Info Susie Palmer-Trew is the founder of Everyday Change and The Grove Club. She's written two books: 'Project Management is All Bollocks' (co-authored with Peter Taylor) and 'The Everyday Change Playbook (because change doesn't need to be shit)'. Connect with Susie on LinkedIn where she shares candid insights about making change work for real people in real organisations.

The Waggle Room - Ep18 - Mark "Moose" McGrath - Beyond OODA loop Mythology

Mark 'Moose' McGrath has dedicated his career to preserving and building upon John Boyd's authentic work, rescuing it from the simplified 'circle diagrams' pushed by those who may not know it's true meaning. In this episode, we explore the real depth of Boyd's thinking, from Destruction and Creation to the OODA 'loop' sketch, and how it applies to modern challenges including AI adoption. ## Key Topics - Why Boyd's work is widely misunderstood and how to access the authentic material - The critical importance of 'Destruction and Creation' as Boyd's foundation - How the Marines adopted Boyd's thinking whilst other services didn't - Orientation as the centre of gravity in decision-making - People, Ideas, Things - and why we always fixate on the wrong one - How AI can enhance orientation when applied correctly - The guerrilla information war we're all participating in ## Where to Listen - Website: https://thewaggleroom.com [https://thewaggleroom.com] - YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/@TheWaggleRoom [https://www.youtube.com/@TheWaggleRoom] - Spotify: https://open.spotify.com/show/TheWaggleRoom [https://open.spotify.com/show/TheWaggleRoom] - Apple Podcasts: https://podcasts.apple.com/gb/podcast/the-waggle-room/id1879089102 [https://podcasts.apple.com/gb/podcast/the-waggle-room/id1879089102] - Substack: https://substack.com/@mickbrian [https://substack.com/@mickbrian] ## Guest Info Mark (Moose) McGrath is Strategic Orientation Advisory at AGLX, former Marine Corps officer, and co-host of the 'No Way Out' podcast. He has spent years in Boyd's archives preserving the authenticity of his work. - LinkedIn: linkedin.com/in/markjmcgrath1 [http://linkedin.com/in/markjmcgrath1] - Website: aglx.com [http://aglx.com] - Substack: thewhirl.substack.com [http://thewhirl.substack.com] - Email: mark.mcgrath@aglx.com [mark.mcgrath@aglx.com]

The Waggle Room - Ep17 - Steve Hearsum - Why We Keep Falling for Silver Bullets

Steve Hearsum joins Mick to explore why organisations and leaders repeatedly reach for silver bullet solutions, despite knowing they don't work. Steve unpacks the powerful forces of shame, anxiety, and what he calls 'functional collusion' that drive our collective search for certainty in an uncertain world. This conversation reveals the uncomfortable truths about why change fails and what practices we actually need to develop instead. ## Key Topics • Why we collude in seeking silver bullet solutions despite knowing they don't work • The role of shame and anxiety in organisational decision-making • Functional collusion and unconscious patterns that maintain dysfunctional systems • The difference between learning for certificates versus learning for practice • Power dynamics and complicity in organisational hierarchies • Why embracing ambivalence and absurdity might be the signal we're missing ## Where to Listen - Website: https://thewaggleroom.com [https://thewaggleroom.com] - YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/@TheWaggleRoom [https://www.youtube.com/@TheWaggleRoom] - Spotify: https://open.spotify.com/show/TheWaggleRoom [https://open.spotify.com/show/TheWaggleRoom] - Apple Podcasts: https://podcasts.apple.com/gb/podcast/the-waggle-room/id1879089102 [https://podcasts.apple.com/gb/podcast/the-waggle-room/id1879089102] - Substack: https://substack.com/@mickbrian [https://substack.com/@mickbrian] ## Guest Info Steve Hearsum is a consultant, executive coach, supervisor and author specialising in organisational change and leadership practices. His book explores why silver bullet solutions persist. - LinkedIn: linkedin.com/in/stevehearsum [http://linkedin.com/in/stevehearsum] - Company: edgeandstretch.com [http://edgeandstretch.com] - Personal: hearsum.com [http://hearsum.com]

The Waggle Room - Ep16 - Brian "Ponch" Rivera - There Is No Way Out

Former Navy captain and fighter pilot Brian 'Ponch' Rivera delves deep into John Boyd's OODA loop, revealing how it connects to complex adaptive systems, the free energy principle, and organisational performance. From the archives of Boyd's work to practical applications in modern teams, Ponch shares insights on flow states, AI's limitations, and why most consultancies miss the true power of distributed intelligence. ## Key Topics - The true OODA loop vs the linear "communist" version most people know - How fighter aviation principles translate to organisational learning - Connections between Boyd's work and the free energy principle - Why orientation is the key to adaptation and novelty - The flow system approach to team performance - AI through the lens of natural vs artificial intelligence - Sacred geometry, UAPs, and exploring weak signals ## Where to Listen - Website: https://thewaggleroom.com [https://thewaggleroom.com] - YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/@TheWaggleRoom [https://www.youtube.com/@TheWaggleRoom] - Spotify: https://open.spotify.com/show/TheWaggleRoom [https://open.spotify.com/show/TheWaggleRoom] - Apple Podcasts: https://podcasts.apple.com/gb/podcast/the-waggle-room/id1879089102 [https://podcasts.apple.com/gb/podcast/the-waggle-room/id1879089102] - Substack: https://substack.com/@mickbrian [https://substack.com/@mickbrian] ## Guest Info Brian 'Ponch' Rivera is co-creator and host of No Way Out podcast, CEO of AGLX, and co-author of the Flow System books. A retired US Navy captain with 28 years of service, he flew F-14s and worked in intelligence before becoming a leading voice on John Boyd's work and complex adaptive systems. - Website: https://aglx.com [https://aglx.com] - Substack: https://worldofreorientation.substack.com [https://worldofreorientation.substack.com] - X/Twitter: https://x.com/nowayoutcast [https://x.com/nowayoutcast] - LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/briandrivera/ [https://www.linkedin.com/in/briandrivera/]