Improving Intimacy in Latter-day Saint Relationships

Sexual Assault and Pornography: Sarah’s Sexual Health Journey

We hear about the dangers of pornography, rightfully so. But can pornography ever be helpful in the process of healing from trauma and with one's sexual identity? In this podcast Sarah bravely shares her story as a faithful LDS who experienced sexual assault and how pornography helped her reclaim her identity and heal from the abuse.    0:00:00.0 Speaker 1: Welcome to Improving Intimacy, a podcast to help single and married Latter-Day Saints strengthen their family connections and marriages. Daniel A. Burgess is the host of Improving Intimacy. Daniel's a marriage and family therapist, father, husband, and author. Here's Daniel on this episode of improving intimacy.   [music]   0:00:24.6 Daniel A. Burgess: Welcome to another episode of improving intimacy. On today's episode, we have Sarah who has offered to go into a very vulnerable and maybe even scary past with sexual assault and what you did to... Is it fair to say, heal or recover? Thrive in spite of that tragedy. So welcome, Sarah, I'm glad to have you here. This is a topic I haven't discussed yet, so one, I wanna be sensitive to your background and history, and I'll let you guide the conversation, but you've expressed the importance of sharing this for other people, so I'm excited to hear what you have to say. So Sarah, tell us a little bit about yourself. Why are you here today, and what is it exactly you wanna share?   0:01:11.7 Sarah: Well, thank you first of all for having me on. I am very passionate about this because I remember growing up thinking that this was... I was surely the only person who this was happening to, and then as we'll discuss later, some issues that came up in marriage that just increased that feeling of isolation and shame and loneliness, and I vowed at the time to... If I ever have an opportunity to talk about it, to talk about it so that someone out there is not feeling the same way I did. So that's why I'm so passionate about this, and I think we can just start with that kind of history of what it was like to grow up and date and then move into a marriage and have some of those same issues with little education.   0:01:53.5 DB: Yes, it's an important topic that we don't discuss a lot now, I appreciate your bravery in doing this, so let's... We don't need to go in, you're welcome to go into as much details you absolutely want, but for context, are you comfortable with sharing maybe the age this happened? So that we have a little understanding of the history of what's going on there and any details that you're comfortable with sharing.   0:02:18.0 Sarah: Sure, so I grew up just in a normal LDS family, a very strong LDS family, all my siblings remained active, so I had great role models, looking up to them, I was active in a Young Women's, everything was just in line for the perfect fairytale story. And I never really dated much in high school, and I just remember thinking, "Oh, I just want a boyfriend so badly," and I watched all my friends date and I just thought, "Oh, that sounds so wonderful. That's something that I'd really like." And then I had my first boyfriend, and we went out on a few dates, and I was 17 at the time. And I remember thinking, being so excited for the first kiss, and then the first kiss happened and when within maybe five to 10 seconds, my shirt was off and he was un-fastening my bra clasp and I thought...   0:03:12.7 DB: So you mean he took it off...   0:03:14.1 Sarah: Yeah, yeah, he... It was like first kiss, peck, and then I thought I was gonna have this time to like, "Oh, kinda float away and enjoy this moment of happy ever after", and I was like, "Whoa, what is going on?" And I didn't know what was going on, I didn't know what these things I was feeling, what they were, and I was just very overwhelmed with the situation and I didn't stop anything, 'cause I think I was just struck with terror and just being overwhelmed and thinking, "Well, no one's talked about what this is, I don't know what is going on." And I don't actually even remember how that ended, but I remember leaving, sitting in the car feeling like I can't go home. My parents are gonna know that I broke the Law of Chastity, I wouldn't have to talk to the bishop who's my best friend's dad...   0:04:06.0 DB: You felt responsible for it.   0:04:09.7 Sarah: 100%. It was my fault, 100%. And just that was the beginning of... And I was 17 years old, that was the beginning of not talking to my parents about these experiences, thinking that I was the only one, but also thinking that that's what every girl was experiencing.   0:04:26.9 DB: You had no idea?   0:04:27.6 Sarah: Yeah. I was the only one, yeah, I was the only one responsible but every other girl surely had to be having these experiences, but it wasn't their fault. So that was just kind of the beginning of a long trail, and I didn't necessarily at that time know that that was sexual assault. I just kind of thought, "That's dating, here we go." [chuckle]   0:04:49.3 DB: How scary.   0:04:50.9 Sarah: So scary. And he was preparing to go on a mission, and so I was like, "Oh well, he's this great guy who's gonna go and serve the Lord and do all these things, and surely it's my fault." And I'd been raised with this mentality that modesty is my responsibility and how I dress will directly impact what boys do to me and how boys think.   0:05:12.6 DB: And that's what you're thinking was your fault?   0:05:16.6 Sarah: Totally.   0:05:17.1 DB: Was because... Do you feel like you were dressed immodestly that evening?   0:05:19.6 Sarah: No, actually, I had come from playing a volleyball game, so I had been wearing athletic gear and in my mind, I'm like sweaty and gross. [chuckle] No one wants to do that, right? And also, I should note that I developed rather quickly as a child, I was... I started puberty at 10 years old, so at 10 years old, I was fully grown as a woman, and I think I internalized a lot of shame about that, of having this really grown-up body and this little girl's brain and not really understanding how to handle both of those mindsets. So when that happened, it was like, "Oh, well, that's because I have this grown woman's body, [chuckle] and he can't control himself."   0:06:03.9 DB: And therefore, it was your fault.   0:06:05.3 Sarah: Oh, totally. Totally. So that was the first experience. Then I graduated high school, he went on a mission, and I just kept having experience after experience with these boys who were raised in the same faith that I was raised in, who had just no concept of boundaries. I just started to think that if I was going to be kissed, I was gonna be touched, and there was nothing really that I could do to stop it, it was just normal. I came to expect that of good return missionaries, good boys who were leaving on missions, that was just what dating was for me. I didn't think anything different.   0:06:49.7 DB: I think that's the most tragic thing I'm hearing... Well, one, the most tragic thing is that you were abused, I guess the close second is that you weren't even aware that you were abused and taken advantage of, and at what point did you look back and say That was wrong. That wasn't my fault?   0:07:09.4 Sarah: Not until I was married.   0:07:11.3 DB: Oh, wow.   0:07:14.3 Sarah: Yeah. And because I had nothing to compare it to. I didn't know anything about sex, I didn't know anything about consent, I didn't know... And at this point, I didn't even know that girls could masturbate. [chuckle] I literally thought that it was just a boy thing.   0:07:27.2 DB: Oh, you mean physiologically.   0:07:29.4 Sarah: Yes. I didn't think it was possible. I knew absolutely nothing about sex and about body, so this was happening, and I was just thinking, "Oh, this is just normal." So I didn't equate it with abuse, I wasn't having traumatic reactions to it, but I did start to kind of spiral a little bit where I just kind of thought, "Well, if guys are gonna do this to me, then I'm just gonna kiss and have fun with whoever I want and do whatever I want and.   0:07:54.2 DB: Interesting.   0:07:56.0 Sarah: Not worry about the consequences."   0:07:58.1 DB: Tell me a little bit more about that line of thinking, what led you to that as opposed to not dating at all, maybe, or some other... I don't wanna put words in your mouth. What gave you that conclusion, you're just gonna have fun, you're gonna kiss and regardless of the consequences, what led you there?   0:08:19.4 Sarah: I think part of it was I was seeing my dear friends get married, from what I understand, and maybe they had been through similar things and just hadn't talked to me about it, but they were getting married and I wasn't. And so I kind of thought, "Oh, well, I'm just like the girl who's gonna get passed around.   0:08:38.7 DB: Oh my goodness.   0:08:38.7 Sarah: So, I'm gonna have fun in the meantime."   0:08:41.3 DB: So you were taken on a narrative that you were broken or undesired, or would that be fair to say, or what were your feelings or thoughts?   0:08:49.9 Sarah: I wasn't feeling broken, but I was feeling very much... They're just interested in my body, they're not interested in a long-term commitment, they're not interested in marriage, I'm not like these other girls, they're the marriageable type, they're just in it for my body, and at the same time, I was kind of having this body awakening where I was finally feeling my brain match up with my body in maturity, I was feeling like, "Oh, I'm coming into this woman's body, I'm feeling myself become less impulsive, I'm feeling myself develop as mentally as a woman, I'm leaving that childhood teenage years behind, I'm feeling empowered in my body. And at the same time, I'm only being wanted for my body." So I was like, "I'm just gonna use my body however I want."   0:09:42.7 DB: I'm curious, we talked about this a little before we started the podcast, and we shared some thoughts and ideas here, but for the listeners, you're in your mid-20s, just for context, so we're talking about a younger generation, and I realize... I have a good 20 years on you, and dating has always been a struggle, and so I don't know if there's a way to say it's worse now or better or the same, however, in the context that it seems like we as a church have been doing more, whether it be through fire sides or church manuals, really emphasizing how men are supposed to treat women with respect, I think they've done more with that in the last 20 years, yet, you're not alone. This is a story I hear all the time, you're just one of the first, who've been willing to come and talk about it. Tell me what are your thoughts, what's your opinion of why the young men are thinking this way, why do they think this is, okay, or do they think it's Okay?   0:10:49.2 Sarah: Well, and we know that sexual assault and rape has been around for as long as people have been on the earth, that's just... It's just the downfall of man... Well, and woman, both can be abusers or perpetrators, but I think in the context of this, there was this generation of 60s and 70s where it was free love and the world was going so radically in one direction that the church narrative pulled so radically in the other direction. I remember talking to my mom like years later, after I had actually been more assaulted and saying, "Why didn't you tell me, why didn't you tell me what to expect or tell me anything about my body, or just tell me what sex is? And she said, "Your father and I felt like if we talked about it, we were giving you permission to do it." And that to me, was just that mindset of that generation, the policies that were coming out from the church in that generation was all fear-based, shame-based and at the same time, there's more material available, so our children at this time are educating themselves with porn, which is a terrible sex educator, and they're not learning, they're not reconciling what they're seeing, what feeling and what the person in the porn is doing.   0:12:09.5 Sarah: And so if the person in porn who's on the receiving end is showing fear and showing discomfort and these young boys are watching it enjoying it, how are they to not know that it's gonna be different in person with a partner? Now how are they not... They're not gonna know, "Oh, this is a boundary that I'm crossing. This person is scared, their body is showing scared, their face is showing fear, their voice is showing fear, they may not have said, no," but... We've set them up for failure, we've set them up in this position of not knowing they're crossing boundaries, not knowing what consent is, because we've been so afraid to talk about it.   0:12:54.6 DB: I think you articulated it perfectly, this is a constant problem I'm seeing. I usually see two extremes where young men refuse to date or they don't know how to engage in dating at all, and so they don't even... It's not even a physical thing, they don't even know how to involve themselves, and again, this has always been the case, but I've been seeing this kind of this extremism getting bigger and bigger.   0:13:23.1 Sarah: The divide.   0:13:24.4 DB: And then we have the others who, while they understand that porn is bad, and it seems like in the church we've done, we've talked more about porn, we have more anti-porn programs and organizations out there than we've ever had yet this is becoming a bigger and bigger issue. And I think what I was hearing you say was, "Yes, we're told... " And I wanna clarify for the audience too, 'cause it could sound like we're saying, "Oh gosh, the church screwed up in all of its teachings there... " Do you consider yourself an active member now?   0:13:55.0 Sarah: Yeah.   0:13:55.1 DB: And this is...   0:14:00.1 Sarah: Yep, active member, temple holding member, half callings... I was the Young Women's president just barely.   0:14:03.7 DB: Forgive me, I didn't wanna make that as though that was the most important thing here, I just wanna give context that this isn't just criticism, this is crucial for a healthy, engaging dating behavior. Absolutely, and so what we see here is young men who're told what not to do, and you said it before the interview, it's because they're not taught what to do. We could talk all day and night about what not to do, but when you're placed in a situation, all you have to go off of is what you've seen and heard, and that's the don'ts and the bad role models of porn.   0:14:43.4 Sarah: Exactly. And at the same time as a girl, the rhetoric that I was receiving was not what not to do, dress your body in this way so that the boys can control their thoughts, you act this way so that you're not tempting to the boys. There was all this don't, don't, don't. And it very much was my responsibility how the boys and the men in my life treated me, and I have a fantastic father, and I have fantastic brothers who never once crossed any sort of sexual boundary, never even came close to it with anyone that I'm aware of, not with myself and not anyone else, but it was... I remember walking up to the stand to give a Young Women talk thinking, "Oh my gosh, are the men in the ward like looking at my butt?"   0:15:28.3 DB: Oh my goodness.   0:15:29.1 Sarah: As I walk up there, "Is my skirt too tight? Are my hips too wide? Am I... [chuckle] Are they cheating on their wives by lusting after me?"   0:15:37.6 DB: Because... Oh my goodness.   0:15:38.1 Sarah: And I was like 16.   0:15:41.8 DB: First of all, the thought that comes to me is, "No youth, should ever be concerned with that thinking about that," and you're saying those fears and concerns were present because of the modesty lessons that you've received.   0:15:53.0 Sarah: Totally.   0:15:55.7 DB: And thinking that you need to do everything you can to help protect these men, young and old from being tempted.   0:16:03.8 Sarah: Totally.   0:16:06.0 DB: That's heavy.   0:16:07.4 Sarah: Super heavy.   0:16:07.9 DB: This is heavy, and I'm gonna diverge just a little bit here, because I think it's important to speak to... People are probably listening here and saying, "Oh gosh, Well, if young men understand that porn is bad, then why are they behaving... " Okay, I hear that they weren't taught how to behave correctly, a little insight that I've discovered in working with young men is this kind of same thing again, they have been tempted, they cannot resist their urges... Sorry, this is the scripts that they're told once they experience desire, they're on a dangerous path. One support group, and I don't mean to be critical, but the concern is one support group actually says it's Satan's Chemical, and this is an LDS support group, so imagine... So the reason why I'm bringing this up is you as a 16-year-old, you were concerned about married men sinning by looking at you.   0:17:10.4 Sarah: Yes.   0:17:10.4 DB: And now, with young men, what I've seen is something similar, different, but similar in that they start to have this experience where they're getting aroused, they have an erection, they immediately think, they're doomed. I had one 14-year-old tell me, I thought... I thought he... I'm not trying to be loose with my words or silly at all, this is the impression and his countenance when he came in, I thought he killed somebody. This kid was scared and he looked at me and he started to say things like, young man saying things like, "I'm on the path to becoming a rapist, I'm on a path to become a serial killer." He was saying these things, and then he said something that just... That alone was scary and heavy, but where I'm going with this is, he said, "I've also destroyed my... " What was the word he used? He said something to the effect of, "I've disappointed my future wife and let my future kids down."   0:18:18.6 Sarah: That's so sad.   0:18:19.9 DB: Just like you... Well, again, different, but like you're carrying this huge weight, so these young men, what I'm seeing is they feel like they're at this impossible journey.   0:18:32.0 DB: And so, they just give up and they say, "I'm just doing it, I'm already gone." And this poor kid, he was scared out of his mind. So people are probably listening say, "Still why would... " Well, because they're not taught what is good, so all they're going off of is their fear and they're giving in because they recognize, they can't even resist it, it seems impossible. That relate to your experience or what are your thoughts?   0:19:01.9 Sarah: Totally. Well, it's... Looking back now, and even at the time, I thought, "These were good guys." In every other regard, they were good guys. And then, I think it just was... There was no boundary, there was no consent. It's hard because we've damaged both, both genders in this talk, we've told the girls that it's their responsibility and they're... Sorry for the strong language, but they're damned for having the female bodies, and we've told the boys they're damned for having physiological responses that they can't control. [chuckle] And this is the extreme that I think we deal with is... I was 21 years old and my minor was sex education, and I remember sitting at the University of Utah, going and my professor saying female masturbation and going, "That's not possible." I was 21, and I had no clue that that was something that girls did, because I had only ever heard masturbation in reference to boys in the church, and that was the extent of my sex education, that was a mind-blowing thing of like, "Holy cow." We have hurt each other so badly just by not knowing, A How our bodies work. B, our bodies are working normally, and C, let's now communicate with each other. None of that was in my vocabulary.   0:20:30.0 Sarah: So to kind of continue with my story...   0:20:31.2 DB: Please.   0:20:31.5 Sarah: I kinda went through this rough patch where I was like, "I'm just gonna kiss anyone who has two legs and walks into the room." And at the same time, I'm still... I'm the secretary in the Relief Society presidency in my singles ward, and I feel like I'm living these two separate lives. There's the version of me who is dating and there's a version of me who's going to church and I can't reconcile them. And then the age I turned in my mission papers and I said, "I'm gonna go on a mission, that's gonna be what's kinda turned my life around, I'm gonna go on a mission." So I got myself straightened out, I went on a mission, I had a great time, I came back, and then I started dating again. And this guy who I was dating, I thought, "This is gonna be different." He took a couple of weeks to kiss me, we went out for a couple of times, and my mission for me was very empowering because I learned how to speak up and out for myself, I think it's really hard to go on a mission and not kinda gain that confidence, a little bit in yourself. So I came back with that confidence of, I'm gonna...   0:21:47.6 Sarah: Now I know how to say no. And then I started dating this guy, and it's like, "Oh, it's different." He's being such a gentleman. And this could be, this could be the long-term thing, and then things started to change again.   0:22:01.3 DB: My goodness.   0:22:03.7 Sarah: So we had to hung out one night and his parents had left out of town, and he was like, "Why don't you come out, you come over, and we'll just, hang out and it'll be a really good evening, and... " I ended up spending the night. And nothing like nothing happened during the night, we just fell asleep in the bed, we cuddled all night long, there was no sexual pressure, and then it was in the middle of the night, something changed, and then suddenly it was like he was begging me to do all of these things, and I just said, "What is wrong with you? What has happened?" And...   0:22:44.2 DB: You called him out.   0:22:45.2 Sarah: I called him out, and he... And then I just said to him, "When was the last time you looked at porn?" And he disclosed to me that he... And he said he'd had a porn addiction since he was 14. And at this stage in my life, I was like, "Oh, well, that's okay. I know a lot of guys deal with that, so this isn't gonna end our relationship, but I want you to work through it and I want you to talk to the bishop, and I don't expect perfection, but I do want respect." So I'm thinking, I'm so grown up, I'm having this really grown-up conversation. This guy is telling... I won't go too far into what I think about that now, but for the context of the story at this time, I was thinking, "I'm so great that I can work through this with him, and he's so great that he's being honest with me." So I think we're on a great path and we keep dating, and then he just starts walking across that boundary again, and I just keep thinking, "Oh my gosh, I've gotta fix him, I've got to be sexier, so he's not looking at porn. I've got to... " And I was trying so hard not to do the things that he was wanting me to do, and at the same time he was telling me, "If you don't do these things, I'm gonna look at porn."   0:24:02.9 DB: Oh my goodness.   0:24:04.8 Sarah: So again, I'm like, "Holy crap, how am I back at this spot where I'm again responsible for this guy's sexuality?" At the same time he's telling me he loves me and he wants to get married, there was just something about the relationship that was making me stick my heels. And if, "We're not gonna be exclusive, we're gonna date other people, 'cause you can't figure this out, and until you can figure this out, I'm not jumping in with you." And I think honestly, that was probably, is the spirit trying to keep me safe, and I didn't recognize it at the time, but... This was the relationship where it turned violent pretty quick.   0:24:42.4 DB: Physically violent?   0:24:43.3 Sarah: Sexually violent. So there was just a lot of fear involved in it, there was a lot of manipulation, there was me saying, No. Me begging to stop, and there was just, No, I'm gonna do what I'm gonna do." But it had never turned into full penetration, and then he at some point in the relationship, he brings up marriage again, "If we get married, I'll be able to stop looking at this porn because we'll be able to do everything that we want. It won't be... "   0:25:14.2 DB: Such a lack of education there.   [laughter]   0:25:17.1 Sarah: Huge lack of education.   0:25:17.9 DB: Or bad education.   0:25:21.6 Sarah: Yeah.   0:25:21.7 DB: Oh my goodness, and...   0:25:21.8 Sarah: And I'm believing it, because I don't have any education either, so... And my minor now is in sex education and I'm like, "Sure...   0:25:30.2 DB: Yeah, I was going to bring that up.   0:25:30.3 Sarah: Great. This will fix it." 'Cause that's what we've been taught in the church is like, you get married and then it's, "No, it's no, no, no, to go, go go, and all your sexual problems are gone."   0:25:38.4 DB: Yeah, it's one of the biggest myths. I don't think it's fair to say a lie, because I think the leadership and the people who are saying this truly believe it, I don't think they're being deceptive, but it just goes to the core of this whole podcast episode is the lack of education. The lack of good education, not just in the negative, but in informative strategies, and I don't even know where that idea came from, that if you get married, the porn habit goes away. That couldn't be further from the truth.   0:26:11.0 Sarah: Right?   0:26:12.1 DB: If it does, it's coincidental. That's mere coincidence. We could talk about that a little bit more, but this is sad, this is the thing that is most upsetting to me when working with people who have a lack of sexual education, 'cause all they know is porn is bad, but they have no idea of what it looks like to have a healthy relationship. So you're dealing with this. Are you able to say... Can you say, how you got out of it, or what did you do?   0:26:46.4 Sarah: Yeah. So there were... So while we were dating, I kept thinking, there's this other guy who I know, we're really good friends. If he would just come to me and just say, "Hey, would you marry me? I would do it in a heartbeat." I just felt so strongly about this friend, and at the same time this other guy is treating me so poorly, and I'm thinking it's all my fault, and I'm feeling so guilty and I'm going to my Bishop and I'm telling my Bishop, "These things are happening. How do I fix them?" And he's giving me more tools than anyone ever had, he's giving me books about pornography, he's giving me... Which were I think, [chuckle] very skewed towards the church's narrative. I don't think they were necessarily a scientifically-based, they were much more along the basis of, "It's an addiction. It's the same thing as doing cocaine", which is absolutely not true.   0:27:44.9 DB: I wanna get into that. And of course, I don't wanna diverge you... I do wanna come back to that. So he was helpful. Was that... At what point... Okay, so what you're saying is that guidance was helpful in ending this current relationship?   0:28:00.5 Sarah: It was helpful in knowing that it wasn't just my fault.   0:28:03.0 DB: Okay.   0:28:03.3 Sarah: And that I could be empowered in the relationship, and he was the first person who kind of said to me like, "If this isn't the future you want, then you don't have to be in it."   0:28:14.2 DB: Good for him.   0:28:15.1 Sarah: Right? And so, but there was still... And that's the hard part about Bishops is that, I think if it had been someone with clinical understanding, they would have said, "This is an abusive relationship," and instead it was like, "If you just don't want porn to be a part of your relationship, just date someone else." And I was like, "Well, that would be nice, but open your eyes, that's not possible."   0:28:40.3 DB: Exactly.   0:28:40.8 Sarah: So at this point, I'm taking my garments off, 'cause I just feel so unworthy and...   0:28:48.7 DB: You weren't instructed to, you just chose to.   0:28:51.1 Sarah: No. And I'm just myself choosing not to take the sacrament, 'cause I just feel so unworthy. And then this guy who I've thought so much about calls me out of the blue and he's like, "Hey, let's go to lunch." And we go to lunch one day and I just thought, "Okay, I'm ending it. I'm ending it because there's something about this guy, I'm gonna end it." So I did, I ended this relationship, then I didn't hear from this guy again. [chuckle]   0:29:20.6 DB: The guy you were interested?   0:29:21.7 Sarah: Yeah. The guy that I was interested, who kinda gave me hope again for men, and I was like, "Well, that's probably better, 'cause I'm in the spot where I probably need to do some healing and working on myself and... " So I don't date anyone for a while, and I work on myself, and then I'm getting lonely, getting really lonely, and I run into this guy who I had been... This guy who I'd been in the relationship with, and I run into him on campus and he's like, "Hey, do you wanna come over?"   0:30:00.3 DB: Even though you've cut it off?   0:30:00.5 Sarah: Yeah, I've cut off. It's been months and I was so lonely that I was like...   0:30:03.9 DB: 'Cause, there's no boundaries.   0:30:05.0 Sarah: Yeah, there's no boundaries and I'm just lonely. So I'm like, "Yeah, of course," it's like, we're good friends and I still cared about him even though, 'cause I didn't know that it was an abusive relationship.   0:30:14.5 DB: Right. And I'm making an assumption here. You just said that you were really lonely, and do you feel like that played into you saying yes also, or...   0:30:26.4 Sarah: Yeah, totally. I just was... I was lonely, all my friends had been married, I'm just back from my mission. [chuckle] It's a hard transition back. We've been dating for seven or eight months when we ended it, so now it's probably like nine or 10 months after, and so we just start talking again, we just started being friends. And then, the other guy who I was interested in at the other time, he calls me up, and he's like, "Do you wanna go on a date?"   0:30:57.9 DB: His timing is interesting.   0:31:00.8 Sarah: At the same time. Yes. So at the same time, these guys are like back in my life at the exact same time, and... So long story short, I ended up saying... This is gonna be so confusing probably to the listeners, but I ended up saying to this guy who I had been dating, "Hey, this other guy asked me out." And, 'cause we were just friends and something... I saw something in his eyes switch. He was like, "Oh, well, yeah, you always talked about him and how much you liked him and how much you respected him, and he's kind of the obstacle that was in our path of us moving forward." I was like, "Not really."   0:31:37.6 DB: Rather he's... The hope in saving you?   0:31:38.9 Sarah: Yeah, I was like, No, it was probably the narrative, but I had, was that I was responsible for your sexuality, for your porn use, and I couldn't fix that anymore, so he ended up asking me to join him for the middle of the day for lunch, and I went over...   0:31:58.3 DB: Which one?   0:31:58.3 Sarah: The guy who I had dated.   0:32:00.7 DB: Okay.   0:32:00.9 Sarah: So I went over to his house during lunch, we left campus together, he drove me there and we were... I remember thinking, "Okay, are we ever gonna eat lunch?" 'Cause we just sat in his room for a while, and then he raped me. And I just remember laying there and it just started off as just normal kissing, and I was like, "Hey, this is weird, but where is this going?" And then it was right back to 17-year-old me who suddenly was being touched and this time I was saying, "No, please stop. No, I don't want this." And it happened anyway. And so that happens, and I looked at him afterwards and he got up and he said, "Let's go back to school." And I looked at him and I hugged him. I hugged him, and I said, "I didn't want that to happen." And I hugged him, 'cause I was so scared that I wasn't gonna be, like I wasn't gonna survive or something, like... My brain just went in to do whatever you need to do to get out of there.   0:33:09.1 DB: Trauma mode.   0:33:09.9 Sarah: Oh, totally. So we got back at school and then I called my... I texted my friend and I texted her and I said, "I just had sex. What do I do now?" And this friend had had sex before marriage as well when she was dating.   0:33:26.6 DB: Not, I was raped, and how do I report him, but what do you do?   0:33:30.1 Sarah: No. No. 100 percent, in my mind it was, "I had had sex." So I call her and she's like, "Oh, it's okay, you'll be okay, it's hard, but you can... You might not be able to take the sacrament for a couple of months, but you can get back and call your Bishop and... " So at this point, I am about to go into work, I'm sick to my stomach, I am shaking and I think, "I just had sex for the first time." So I call my Bishop, I go to the Bishop's office or I go to his house, 'cause it was a Friday night and I'm just devastated, and I walk in and he's like, "What can I do for you?" And I slide my temple garment across the table to him, and I'm like, "I'm no longer worthy of this." And he was like, "Okay, well, tell me what happened?" And so I start saying, start describing to him what happened, and.   0:34:24.6 DB: Is this is the same Bishop that provided you good resources? .   0:34:27.2 Sarah: Yes. Thank goodness.   0:34:27.8 DB: Yes.   0:34:28.4 Sarah: Same Bishop, and he stops me and he says, "No, you didn't have sex. You were raped." And it just suddenly was like, "That's what that was."   0:34:39.2 DB: He called it out.   0:34:39.4 Sarah: He called it out.   0:34:41.1 DB: Excellent.   0:34:41.6 Sarah: Yes, and he said, "I have, I've known you for a while. I've been working with you for a while, from what you've described, your relationship with this guy, you've tried really, really hard, and he has not respected that, and he took full advantage of you and he raped you." And I just sat there stunned. I finally had a word for what was happening, and thank goodness, this Bishop was so in tune and he said, "You know, I don't know how to help you." He said, "I can help you with spiritual healing if you need it, but I don't know how to help you and I'm gonna pay for you to find help." 'Cause at this point, I also didn't have insurance and I was too afraid to tell my parents, so I'm like, [chuckle] "Ah, what do I do?" And I didn't go to the hospital to get any forensic exams done, 'cause I didn't know I had been raped, and suddenly here's this ecclesiastical leader pointing me in the direction of help, and it was life-saving, so he paid for me to see a therapist and I was in therapy within a week, and that made all the difference in my life. And I had a male therapist where... He said, "I'm gonna send you to a male therapist" and I said, "What have you been smoking Bishop? I'm not gonna go sit across from a man and tell him what happened." And he said, "I think that you need a man to listen to you." And so I had to sit...   0:36:02.1 DB: This Bishop wasn't a counsel, he had no training.   0:36:05.1 Sarah: No. No training.   0:36:07.6 DB: This is interesting. Sorry, I think this is actually an important concept that a lot of...   0:36:12.6 Sarah: Totally.   0:36:12.7 DB: People don't realize. When I was working, in my training, I was serving the community in a community center, and that was the first time that I found women who had been raped were asking for male therapists, and that was before I really understood something called Gestalt therapy, if you're familiar.   0:36:30.3 Sarah: Yes. Yeah.   0:36:32.4 DB: And this is their opportunity... There's many reasons to do this, and there are some... I wanna be clear, there are some reasons not to do it either also, and so what this allows, and I'm curious to hear your experiences is, I like how the Bishop said, is it gives a man an opportunity, you get to have a man listen to you and validate you. It also provides the victim an opportunity in a gestalt model for those who aren't familiar, there's this concept of empty chair or imagining that the therapist is your aggressor and you lash out at them in a therapeutic way or whatever, you confront them that way, and so it can be very therapeutic if you're ready for that. It's always hard to tell. But what was your experience? So he suggested this, it looked like you're a little surprised.   0:37:25.1 Sarah: Totally.   0:37:26.4 DB: But you followed through and you found a male therapist?   0:37:28.0 Sarah: Yeah, he actually gave me a referral, he said I... He had had a friend who was a therapist or was very aware of clinical concepts or whatever that... She suggested I see a man. So he gave me the number, I called and made the appointment myself. And I walked in not really knowing what to expect. I had never been to therapy before, and I walked in and I sat down and just kind of started talking about my life and my past and everything that was going on in this relationship and being stuck on the concept of like, "I had lost my virginity." One thing that he said in that first day was, "No. No, you don't lose your virginity, that's a social construct, you don't lose your virginity. No one takes that from you." And that was the beginning of realizing, "Okay, I've got some very unhealthy and harmful narratives in my mind, and I need to change them."   0:38:26.9 DB: So, you're presenting this is as very accepting and like, "Oh, yeah." What's it like that for you at the moment? Did you push back at all? Did you... What was your awakening, healing process like, was it difficult to receive that information or was it healing?   0:38:43.5 Sarah: The difference was, is that he was clinically trained, and so he... As opposed to saying it to a bishop or a parent, he had this clinical training to... I could see the surprise on his face when I was telling him these things that I thought were normal. And so, much like, right now, I'm telling you things and you have these surprise looks on your face and it's so validating.   0:39:04.9 DB: Oh good. [laughter]   0:39:06.9 Sarah: Right? It is 100% validating to think, "These things that I thought were normal, that every girl experienced, are horrifying to this man, and he would never treat a girl this way or a female this way." And I can see it on his face. And he's a member of the church, and this isn't right.   0:39:24.4 DB: The therapist?   0:39:25.3 Sarah: Yeah, this therapist. So that was probably what made me actually accept it, was that, "Here's this guy who believes the same thing I do, who is horrified and shocked and in tears at some point with what I'm telling him and how I've assumed and accepted as a normal behavior."   0:39:47.6 DB: You can't... I don't know, I can't speak for every therapist, but I've heard stories and no two stories are the same. Everybody's experience is unique, but it's heart wrenching each time. I hope, one, I hope I never get used to hearing it. If I do, I need to check myself.   [laughter]   0:40:11.7 DB: It's heart-breaking, and again, to repeat what you're saying, this at the beginning... This is why it's so important for you to speak out and I appreciate that. So, continue from there. What was your journey like? How long were you in therapy? What was your discoveries along that path?   0:40:28.7 Sarah: Well, I think the most important discovery that we made in therapy together was I had this pattern of dating guys who I thought I could fix. 'Cause that was also a narrative that I had taken on is like, "As a disciple of Christ and as a woman of Christ, I have to fix people and I'm gonna make them better." And he said, "You date these people who you think you need to fix, and this is... So, this is like you're going along in your car, and I want you to think of your rape as like you've hit a brick wall. And that brick wall is stopping you from what could be." And I remember thinking, "Oh my gosh, if I had married that guy, this would have been my life, and I would not have known." And it always shocks people when I say this, but I will say it, I'm so grateful for it. I'm so grateful for that experience because I walked out of therapy going, "Not again. No one will ever treat me that way again, and I'm not gonna date a guy who's gonna treat me like that." And long story short, I ended up marrying that other guy.   0:41:33.8 DB: The one that was...   [chuckle]   0:41:34.1 Sarah: Yeah. The one who I always wanted to date while I was dating this other guy. We got our act together and we ended up getting married. So, that was... And he was the exact opposite. He was the guy... And ironically, I thought before this experience, I was never good enough for him, either. He's this amazing, incredible guy, and I was like, "I'm not good enough." And I walked out of therapy going, "Oh, I am so good enough for him, and he would be so lucky to have me."   [laughter]   0:42:06.6 DB: What a wonderful discovery. And you brought up something that we kind of glossed over it. I can't tell you how many women end up marrying a situation like that where, because they don't have this discovery, and I'm not... This is tragic. And it's years later that they discover this was horrible. So I appreciate, and I realize it's probably difficult for a lot of people to hear it. We're clearly not saying the abuse was okay.   0:42:36.4 Sarah: No, not at all.   0:42:39.3 DB: But that, as a result, you were awakened, it was an opportunity to get help and to discover more. I'm sure it wasn't as simple as having that discovery and everything's better.   0:42:53.6 Sarah: No, not at all.   0:42:53.7 DB: What was that journey like from there on out? So, you're dating your husband, and...   0:42:58.3 Sarah: So, we're dating, and I'm thinking, "Okay, that's the end of our... The end of my sexual problems." [chuckle] And again, great guy, we start dating, he takes like a month to kiss me and then it's just like little pecks here and there for months, and I'm finally like, "Hey... "   0:43:14.0 DB: Is he aware of this recent experience yet?   0:43:18.1 Sarah: So at this point, no, at this point...   0:43:21.0 DB: So, he's acting all on his accord, he's not... He's not like over...   0:43:23.2 Sarah: Yes. He's not being over-aware or over-sensitive or over-thinking anything.   0:43:28.6 DB: I think that's important for the listeners to know.   0:43:29.0 Sarah: Totally. Yeah.   0:43:30.2 DB: So this is... You found a guy who's true to his behavior here. This is...   0:43:35.5 Sarah: Yeah. He is living his behavior, he is showing me his behavior. And I'm starting to get worried of like, "Okay, why is this not unfolding? Why are we not progressing at all?" And...   0:43:46.8 DB: Isn't that interesting? You're expecting this will happen.   0:43:51.3 Sarah: Yes. I'm expecting that this will happen, 'cause I wanted to, know... I wanted to be able to say no, I like, I was gonna set those boundaries and like we're gonna talk about them, there's gonna be none of this business going on. And he kisses me one night and I pull away from him and I go, "Why won't you kiss me for longer?" And he goes, "I don't wanna have an erection." And I was like, "What? [chuckle] What are you saying?" And he said, "If I have an erection, I'm being disrespectful to you."   0:44:19.0 DB: Wow.   0:44:19.5 Sarah: And he said, My... He had a Bishop when he was 16, tell him the erections were breaking law of chastity, and I was like, "Hey, buddy, if we're kissing and you don't have that response, there's something wrong. There's a bigger issue." [laughter] I was just was so shocked.   0:44:38.7 DB: You had such insight... You had that insight at that time?   0:44:41.7 Sarah: Yeah.   0:44:41.9 DB: Is that something you learned... Forgive me, I'm coming from maybe a place of ignorance here in making some assumptions. After your traumatic experiences, it would seem like, my naive response here, "Oh, good, you're not. You would... " Some people might feed that behavior and say, "Oh good, now I know I'm safe." What allowed you to say, "Oh, this is actually unhealthy?"   0:45:08.6 Sarah: So, my therapist and I worked a lot through that. 'Cause my therapist was very concerned that I started dating this guy, 'cause he said, "You know, I don't want that...   0:45:16.8 DB: Your now husband.   0:45:17.7 Sarah: Yes, my now husband. "I don't want you to feel like that you're getting into this relationship where he's saving you and you're working through some really traumatic things, and we don't want to get that tied up in your relationship."   0:45:29.1 DB: Good.   0:45:29.5 Sarah: So we worked very closely to... And I was very transparent with my therapist with this, now relation... My husband. And so I was talking to him about these concerns and he said, "Well, why don't you just ask him?" I was, at this point, and we had talked about how it's, an erection is a normal response to any sort of stimulus and not to fear it. So I didn't. I wasn't fearing it. And he said, "Any guy who's gonna respect your boundaries is gonna be able to say, 'My pants will calm down,' and I won't touch you." [chuckle] And I... Yeah, I just... I knew this guy was gonna be that way, there was just something about him that he... From the very beginning, he respected me. So, I have this discussion with him and I'm like, "Why are you not kissing me longer, and he's like, I don't wanna disrespect you, is disrespect for you." And I'm like, "Well, I would like to make out. [laughter] So, I'd like to kiss you a little bit longer." And we've been dating for months and let's see if this is going somewhere, and... So, long story short is, he had a lot of that narrative in his mind that he was so afraid of disrespecting women and girls that he had shut down everything.   0:46:40.8 DB: Like I was saying at the beginning.   0:46:41.8 Sarah: Totally. He is the opposite.   0:46:42.7 DB: That extreme. Yeah. I wanna point out, and I hope you don't feel like I'm putting you on a pedestal here, but it sounds like, and I realized, we're reflecting back on the past, the maturity that you gained to have that conversation is amazing.   0:47:00.8 Sarah: Thank you.   0:47:00.9 DB: It's... I don't want that to come out in a way that if others have been through a traumatic experience, can't do that, as any way shameful.   0:47:10.0 Sarah: Not at all.   0:47:10.1 DB: But I wanna emphasize how significant that is, that you didn't just run away or stay or not say anything at all. There's this culture of, "Don't talk about it at all." But you used it as an opportunity to connect with him. Which is a huge part of what I believe is healing, creating connection.   0:47:31.9 Sarah: Totally.   0:47:32.9 DB: Have an awareness of each other as opposed to assuming and labeling and ignoring or just not discussing. That is... I'm trying not to be extreme in my language, but that is truly impressive.   0:47:47.8 Sarah: Thank you.   0:47:48.7 DB: And I think it's important for the listeners to understand both how difficult that is and the fact that you were able to do it, was beautiful.   0:47:56.7 Sarah: Thank you. Well, and I do... It was so helpful to be falling in love, at the same point in therapy, weekly, [chuckle] and at the same point, having these really open discussions with the suitor. So, we'll fast forward to a couple of weeks and he's doing something playfully, like I think he picked me up and twirled me around and I had a traumatic response and I shoved him. And he stepped back and looked at me and was like, "I'm so sorry. I'm so sorry." And I was like, "Oh, no, no, no, no, no, you're fine. I just don't like... "   0:48:35.6 DB: You're still taking the responsibility.   0:48:36.9 Sarah: Yeah. I was like, "I just don't like being picked up." And later that night, I thought, "Okay, I've got to tell him what's going on. I don't want him to think that this is his fault, and, well, this needs to be... "   0:48:47.9 DB: Oh, that's right. 'Cause you hadn't shared with him yet. So this was your opportunity.   0:48:49.0 Sarah: Yeah. So, at this point he has no idea what's going on. And so I sat him down on the couch and I said, "Listen, this is what's happened, and I understand if you wanna walk away." And he was like, "Why would I walk [chuckle] away?" And he just sat and cried.   0:49:04.7 DB: What a different experience?   0:49:05.9 Sarah: So different. He sat and cried with me, he held me while I cried, and he... I don't know how he did this, but he managed his traumatic response in front of me. So, he cried, he... And I told him, "This is a lot for you to handle, I understand that, if you need to tell someone, if you need to tell your parents, if you need to tell a bishop, if you need to tell a friend, please tell someone so you're not holding this by yourself. I have my people who are holding it with me, please get your people." And he... That's when he had his traumatic response of like, "I'm gonna kill this guy, I'm gonna find him... " That's when he had his response to my trauma, but that I was... I didn't have to carry it. And I think that's why we are married. [chuckle] He was able to separate that. [laughter]   0:49:51.1 DB: Yes. And I'm gonna point that out. How crucial that is, again, not to put you on a pedestal, but your ability to create differentiation in the relationship early on and not feel like, while you're communicating and being open and creating connection, you also emphasized, "I'm carrying my load, I've got my people, and if this is concerning, the most effective way to deal is get your own people. Let's not blend our trauma together. Let's support each other, but let's not be each other's therapist."   0:50:22.7 Sarah: Oh yeah.   0:50:23.0 DB: There's a fine line there, of course, but... Very impressive.   0:50:28.5 Sarah: And his mom has been a therapist, and so I said, "Please talk to your mom about this." And I was trying to not be ashamed, and so I didn't want this to be a secret. So I didn't want... You know, [chuckle] to be like, "Oh, my girlfriend's gone through something, but I can't tell my parents about it." It was like, "If I'm a part of your family, this is a part of my life, like this, we're not gonna put it in the closet, it's just gonna be out there. It's what it is." And so our relationship progressed. He went to therapy by himself. He came to therapy with me a few times, and we fell in love, and we got married and I was like, "Okay, here we go, here comes sex. Real sex."   0:51:05.5 DB: Oh-oh.   0:51:06.1 Sarah: Good sex.   0:51:07.1 DB: So, it is good, everything's great, happy ever after, right?   0:51:11.4 Sarah: We would like to think, right? So, back to my Bishop, great insightful Bishop, where we are... We're getting ready to get married and he pulls us in his office and he says, "You guys, this is gonna be hard for Sarah. It's gonna be really hard for Sarah to go from these traumatic experiences to, Let's do it all in one night." And he says, "I'd like you to explore each other's bodies." And he said, Your only... He gave us limits and he said, "Your only limits are oral and penetrative sex."   0:51:45.5 DB: Your Bishop counselled you this?   [chuckle]   0:51:46.6 Sarah: My Bishop.   0:51:47.3 DB: I want his name and number.   [laughter]   0:51:49.3 Sarah: Alright.   0:51:50.4 DB: This is phenomenal. When you heard him say that, what was your response?   0:51:56.0 Sarah: Well, I was like, jaw dropped. Because my husband's bishop, at that time, he was like, "You can't touch each other at all. Satan's gonna be trying to destroy you as a family, and if you... "   0:52:08.4 DB: Oh, yeah. I hear that all the time.   0:52:09.7 Sarah: Yeah. [chuckle] "If you touch each other at all, you're gonna have sex, the passion is just so alive, no touching yourselves"   0:52:14.9 DB: You no longer have agency.   0:52:16.3 Sarah: Right. Like, we're children again. And then we had my bishop who was like, "Please get to know each other before you have sex." And we talked about it as a couple, and we decided, "Okay, what is appropriate for us? What do we feel like we can handle? What's our plan in case we start to feel overwhelmed? What happens if I have a traumatic response? And what are our boundaries?" And we talked about those things that people don't talk about in their marriage for years. And it just set us up on what I thought was the perfect happy ever after.   0:52:51.2 Sarah: So, we get married in the temple. We have a great sex life for a couple of months and then I can't get there. I can't climax. And I remember, [chuckle] it was Valentine's night, I had bought, on a meager student income, I had bought this red piece of lingerie and I was so excited. And I was anticipating it so much and looking forward to connecting so much, and then I was feeling the feeling, feeling the build-up and then, boom, exhaustion, can't get there. My husband gets up and puts his garments back on and I just remember thinking, "Oh my gosh, I'm so broken. I am so broken." And that was my spiral back down hill, that night. That's when everything changed from it being something that my husband and I participate in together where my pleasure matters as much as his pleasure, and we need to be clear that my bit does. My husband has never once pressured me, he's always been 100% understanding. We both just didn't have the tools. So, this is the spiral of...   0:54:06.0 DB: You not only didn't have the tools, 'cause that's my concern in general, is no one's taught how to have intimate relationships, sex and orgasm. Who teaches that? But you're up against also trauma.   0:54:20.1 Sarah: Yeah.   0:54:21.3 DB: And so you've got a few fronts here that you're battling, and this is happening at this moment. So, where do you go from there?   0:54:29.3 Sarah: So months progress and I'm just becoming increasingly more depressed and I'm feeling increasingly more isolated. I started seeing a different therapist, I had moved, so I had a different therapist. It was a sex therapist. And the sex therapist kept telling me it's this trauma that's in the way of you being able to connect with your husband, and I was sitting there saying, "It's not the trauma. I've worked through so much of the trauma. Of course, I have bad nights where something triggers me and I can identify the trigger and work through it, but it's not the trauma that's preventing me from this." So I tried a different sex therapists, and I tried an OB-GYN. And I tried a different OB-GYN. And the problem was, is I would feel the build-up and I would... We'd be in the moment and we'd be feeling really, really good, and then I would just hit this wall of exhaustion. And it felt like I was being knocked off my feet. And it was time and time and time again, and I just started feeling like, "I'm only here to be like this vessel for other men's pleasure. And it's not... My husband's not making me feel this way, this is how God designed my body to be a vessel for other men's pleasure, not my own, for other men's pleasure."   0:55:45.1 Sarah: And that was the beginning of just months, years of severe depression and anxiety, and it got so bad that I had suicidal ideation. Because my husband and I have always been able to be so transparent from the beginning, I was able to disclose to him, that I was having these ideations and he said, "Okay, you've gotta get help, like this is obviously not working." It terrified him enough that I could see on his face of like just the idea of that was so scary, I don't think I could ever go through with it, which kind of brought me back to reality. But... So, nothing's changing, I'm just super depressed. I'm seeing doctors who are saying, "We're just gonna prescribe you these anti-depressants, it will kill your libido. Here's some anti-anxiety, work on your trauma." So I start EMDR. And so, for those of the listeners, it's a great form of trauma therapy where you process it without really describing it, so you're not re-victimizing yourself, you're processing more of what your body is holding on to. So, I go through it and I'm like, That's not the trauma. It's not... There's something that's stopping me, physio... My physical body is stopping me.   0:57:01.0 Sarah: There's something in the way. I can feel it. So again, I'm just hopeless. No one's believing me. Every single person is telling me it's your trauma, which was at this point, more traumatic than my trauma.   0:57:13.5 DB: Interesting, yes. I was actually gonna point that out and... Well, I won't jump ahead here. I wanna reflect back on that but... So what was it? What did you end up discovering?   0:57:27.2 Sarah: So I... So we move out of state, and I'm talking to this woman in my new ward and something... She was a doula. So for those who aren't aware of what a doula is, they're basically a birthing partner. So they... She professionally goes in and helps women deliver their babies as their advocate, and I had... She had mentioned to me that what got her interested in it was she had had a traumatic response giving birth because she had been molested as a child, and that resurfaced for her during her birth. And I was like, "Holy crap. That might happen to me." And so I disclosed to her my history of sexual assault, and then I disclosed to her my problem of not being able to climax. And she didn't bat an eye. She said, "Oh, go visit a pelvic floor physical therapist." And she gave me a name. So I made this appointment and I go in, and at this point, I have kind of like this PTSD from visiting providers. 'Cause none of them believe me. Everyone is telling me... It ranges from, "It's your trauma," to, "Let go of how you view yourself. Your body image part... " And I'm like, "I've never once said that I don't like the way I look in sex."   [laughter]   0:58:36.5 Sarah: Everyone's pointing out these emotional things or these things that we've put on women that I'm like, "It's none of those. I'm not telling you like... Listen to me, please." So I walk in, and I sit down, and she started crying, this physical therapist, and she said, "You are the hardest client to get in my doors because everyone gives up on you."   0:59:01.7 DB: Mm-hmm. Yes. Gives up on you in the sense of they think it's something else?   0:59:09.4 Sarah: Yes.   0:59:09.6 DB: Yes.   0:59:09.9 Sarah: They think it's something else. And she said, "It is so common." She said the clients who have it the most are religious clients, which I think is ironic.   0:59:17.2 DB: That's well-studied, actually.   0:59:18.1 Sarah: Very religious people and athletes. And I was both. So she... I remember her saying, "You'll have an orgasm within a month." And I was going like, "Yeah, right."   0:59:27.8 DB: So let me pause you there before we get on to the healing, hopefully, is...   [laughter]   0:59:32.4 DB: That's what I was wanting to speak to, is in no way is this a criticism. I am so thankful for the research and the skills that trauma therapists and trauma training in general has brought to clinicians. However, what I'm seeing is an imbalance in assessment. A lot of clinicians are jumping to trauma, which isn't wrong, and trauma is still playing a part of your life.   1:00:04.3 Sarah: Totally.   1:00:07.5 DB: However, there's... Your body is made up of a bunch of more things than just trauma and just the things that you were bringing up. Everything needs to be explored, and I think that's a critical part of assessment. And I'm in a tricky spot as a male therapist who often will engage in thorough assessment. Like yes, fully recognize there's trauma. Is there potentially anything else biologically going on, emotionally going on that's disconnected from that? And that's often perceived as minimizing trauma, and it's a tricky place to be in because... Absolutely, there's trauma there, but I'm seeing a lot of what's happening, what happened to you, where your actual health concern wasn't related to the trauma, at least not the majority of it. And finally, somebody found out. You found the right person, rather, and they guided you. So do you mind sharing what the procedure was? I think I know where you're going with this.   1:01:04.1 Sarah: Yeah. So it was just pelvic floor physical therapy. So it was all internal work. So basically she inserted her fingers into my vagina and was able to release the tension. And what she said that was so profound was she said... And at this point, I have my MSW, and I'm like, "I'm a therapist. I'm gonna be a therapist. This is my passion." So I'm talking to her about all these terms, and she's like, "Yeah, don't you guys like read that book, The Body Keeps the Score, and don't you guys understand that you hold trauma in your body?" And I was like, "Yes. Actually, I do know that." And she's like, "Well, where do you think you hold it?" And I said, "Well, I don't know. Like my whole body?" She said, "In your pelvic floor." Mind blown, right? So what she did is in her assessment, she found that... And she likened it to bicep curls. She said, "Your vaginal walls have to go up and down like you would do a bicep for you to orgasm." And she said, "Yours are so tight that they can't loosen. They can't physically make that sensation happen. They can't have that... They won't.   1:02:15.0 Sarah: So we did some exercises and I had to relearn how to do certain things. I had to essentially learn how to orgasm, and that was the beginning of happiness. That was the beginning of the fairy tale, for me, it was. [chuckle] Learning, becoming one with my body, and when I say one with my body, for anyone who has a period, who has a uterus, who has a pelvic floor, that includes you man, understand what's going on with your pelvic floor. That is where you're holding your stress, where you're holding your trauma. And since then, I have been able to identify when I suck in, and I know I do it. When I am triggered or when I'm stressed, or if I'm uncomfortable or if I'm feeling vulnerable, I can suck in my muscles, and I feel it. It's like this, "Please don't look at me," and I'm sucking in. It's totally this trauma-fear response, and I can now push myself back out and to relax, and I have control of what's going on with me. And that's the first time that's ever happened. I was able to orgasm. We have a great sex life now. We've had... Since had a baby and that didn't break me. I thought that was gonna ruin me again. I wasn't afraid to have a child, and it helped bringing a child in. I used the same things that I learned in therapy, and I survived.   1:03:46.8 DB: What a story. Not a story. What a life.   1:03:51.8 Sarah: Yeah.   [laughter]   1:03:52.7 DB: My goodness, that journey. So was it... What the doctor did, did that get you to successful orgasm? Was there other things that you did to help yourself along?   1:04:03.3 Sarah: Yeah, so basically, what she would do is she would use her fingers on muscles and release them so much like you would lengthen a muscle or much like going to the gym, right? You learn how to turn your muscles on and off when you're lifting weights, and she helped me learn how to do that, then I had to learn how to breathe again. 'Cause I was breathing incorrectly, like who even knows that you can breathe incorrectly. But I was breathing in, sucking in, doing... Any time I worked out, sucking in, holding that pelvic floor in tight. I learned to masturbate. That was a big one, right, learning my body.   1:04:42.2 DB: What is the purpose of that? Just to... Was it to help heal? Or what was the purpose of masturbating?   1:04:47.9 Sarah: The purpose of that was to, A, figure out how my body worked, right? How... What feels good? Now that I know my body can react to pleasure, what feels good? We started over, basically. So... And that came from... And this is the part that blows my mind is how we expect our young people or any people to walk into a marriage not knowing their body. So I learned my body with that. I've helped my husband learn my body, so his confidence grew, my confidence grew, our intimacy was connected. For the first time, it felt like it was a partnered experience.   1:05:23.8 DB: This is important for a lot of Latter-day saints to understand. And I'm not gonna sit here and say that masturbation should be a part of everyone's life. However, when we as... Especially Latter-day saints who are clinicians make a blanket statement, which I've seen recently in social media and some pretty well-respected therapists who are LDS, say that any therapist who encourages masturbation is not in line with their faith, right? It's... Yea

Sarah Chapman’s Journey of Self-Realization | Learning to Enjoy Sexuality

My name is Sarah Chapman. I’ve been married for almost 20 years to my husband, Trent, together we have 5 children and live in Lehi, Utah. I am an author of two books, “MindStrength for Women [https://www.amazon.com/MindStrength-Women-insecure-relationships-confident/dp/0692375953/ref=sr_1_1?dchild=1&keywords=mind+strength+for+women+sarah+chapman&qid=1617221011&sr=8-1]” and “Underneath it all.....You’re Naked [https://www.amazon.com/Underneath-All-Youre-Naked-misconceptions/dp/B0841ZBCXZ/ref=sr_1_1?dchild=1&keywords=underneath+it+all+your+naked+sarah+chapman&qid=1617221043&sr=8-1]” Both of these books were written after a very hard period of time in life. One was about my physical journey to coming back to myself and the other is my sexuality journey of overcoming my judgment about sex to becoming more curious. I went about teaching women about sexual health for 2 years and mainly surrounding the female sexual response cycle. I taught women that you can’t find freedom in your understanding of your sexuality until you have overcome the deep rooted beliefs about sex. I found my own freedom from it that is why I wrote a book about it. Now my focus is on creating a community of women where we come together weekly to share the physical, mental and sexual aspects of our lives and have meaningful discussions with a workbook followed by an exercise class. Because movement creates emotion. You can find me: Instagram : @mindstrength.for.women [https://www.instagram.com/mindstrength.for.women/] MindStrength for Women Facebook Group [https://www.facebook.com/groups/mindstrengthforwomen] Email: sarah@mindstrengthmentor.com [sarah@mindstrengthmentor.com]   Full Transcript:  00:00 Narrator: Welcome to Improving Intimacy, a podcast to help single and married, Latter-Day Saints strengthen their family connections and marriages. Daniel A. Burgess is the host of Improving Intimacy, Daniel is a Marriage and Family Therapist, father, husband, and author. Here's Daniel on this episode of Improving Intimacy.   [music]   00:28 Daniel: Welcome to another episode of Improving Intimacy. On today’s episode we have Sarah Chapman, who is an author; and we’re excited to review her book with her today and kinda learn her journey to getting to this book. Sarah, welcome to the show.   00:44 Sarah: Thank you for having me, Daniel. I appreciate this, it’s really exciting.   00:48 Daniel: I’m very excited. As someone who’s writing a book, I also 1) kinda selfishly learn your journey, (mine’s been a very difficult one). And, so I may get a little selfish in my inquiries here--but more importantly, I’m curious to hear more about you. Who are you as a wife, as a person, as a mother? Tell us a little about yourself and what got you to this point.   01:12 Sarah: Sure, love to. So, I (we), Trent and I, my husband and I, will be going on 19 years of marriage this September. I have 5 children, I currently live in Utah. We lived in California for a time, actually, in San Diego area actually. Miss that place, for sure. But, yeah, I first basically grew up in an LDS home and I grew up in a family with 8 children, and I’m 6th of the 8. [...] In our home we didn’t talk about anything remotely close to our bodies. We were very surface type of family. We didn’t really talk about hard things. I wouldn’t say that we were an authentic family. But, at the same time, I did feel loved by my parents and I felt that they were providing me with a really great education, secularly as well as spiritually. And so, I didn’t feel like I was necessarily neglected in the way I was thinking.    02:29 Sarah: However, growing up as a teenager in the 90s, I’d run around with some friends who were sexually active and seeing the naive young teenager that I was, I kinda looked at them and viewed them as people who were naughty girls, right? And so, I remember church lessons here and there. It wasn’t very often, but I do remember those specific metaphors that were shared. I actually did get the “chewed up piece of gum” kind of analogy, which maybe a lot of your audience here might have gotten.   03:10 Daniel: Oh…(sarcastically) excellent. Yeah.   03:13 Sarah: You know? And then I also just really created a lot of...I would just look at the word sex and just immediately think that it was just this dirty thing. However, there was also this other part of me that was being told that it was this sacred thing, and you don’t talk about it, right? And so I was just kinda like this....back and forth in my head about like, “what is this?” Sure, I had boyfriends in high school and I do remember getting close a couple times where I feel like my body was in a state of arousal. Obviously I didn’t know what it was, because I didn’t know my body then. But looking back, I’m like, “Oh, that’s what that tingling sensation was when I was getting close to that boy, oh! Okay, right.”    04:06 Sarah: I can say that now, but at the time, as a teenager, I didn’t at all. And I never (like when I would shower and stuff), like I would just hurry and shower really quick and then get out. I never wanted to self-pleasure or anything, at all. I didn’t even know my body. And so, come the time of marriage, the night before I’m to be married, my mom thinks it’s a great time to talk about sex. She pulls me aside and she basically asked me, “You’re gonna have sex tomorrow night, right?” and I was like, “well, I guess…”. I mean, I kinda remember my teenage years back in high school telling me that a penis goes inside a vagina, but then I was like...I plugged my ears like “I don’t wanna hear this, I don’t wanna hear this!” I just kinda ignored what they were gonna tell me. I knew just that fact: that a penis goes into a vagina and that was it. My mom was like, “Well, here’s a book. Go ahead and read this book.” And it was the book from...is it called, Between Husband and Wife by Lamb? Dr. Lamb?   05:14 Daniel: Oh yeah, oh yeah. 05:15 Sarah: Yeah, it was that book. And I was like, “Mom, I don’t have time to read this book.” And she’s like, “Well, you’ll eventually refer back to it.” And that was it. That was my sex talk from my mom. I was just basically thrown into the fire the night of my wedding. It was very traumatic. Very long, exhausting night as any honeymooners would imagine, who had never had sex before, trying to figure things out, trying to figure out our bodies. Anyways, it was just a mess. And I called my mom the next day, just in tears, like, “I just got married and this just happened to me.” I didn’t go into detail with her because we don’t...we don’t talk about details or anything like that. But I really wanted to, like, it was like this cry for help. Like, “why didn’t you tell me these things? Why didn’t you help me to understand how my body works in this way? That it’s supposed to be designed for this?” Anyway. That’s just kinda the cycle that happened for I’d say the first 16 years of my marriage. That was the only thing we really fought about in our marriage, was sex. It wasn’t money or anything, it was always about sex.   06:42 Daniel: You mean, the issues were always about sex? 06:45 Sarah: The issues, yeah. 06:46 Daniel: Okay. 06:47 Sarah: Yeah, thank you. Yeah. The issues around sex. He would always try to approach me and help to try to fix me, right? Because of course he wanted a decent experience, too. But, at the same time, I was looking at him like, “Oh...this is all you want. You just want my body.” And that was it. I viewed myself as this tool for him.   07:09 Daniel: So let me pause you right there. What you just stated was big! It was huge. So, you viewed yourself as a tool for him to get satisfied, is that what you’re saying? 07:22 Sarah: Exactly, yeah.   07:24 Daniel: And that was because of…   07:25 Sarah: You know, because I never...I never wanted to receive that pleasure for myself. Because I once again thought it was like...I thought I was a bad girl if I did that, right? So, even when I did have an orgasm, I’d immediately feel guilty every single time afterwards because of this shame that I’d created in my head about me having pleasure. So then, I viewed him as, “oh, he’s just using my body, and sex is for him, and orgasm is something that he just needs all the time.” 08:03 Daniel: I wanna explore that a little bit, if you’re okay with it. I know you bring it up in indirect ways, in fact, in your book Underneath it All... and I apologize to the audience, I didn’t mention the name of your book, Underneath it All...You’re Naked. I love that title by the way, I think it’s excellent.   08:18 Sarah: Thank you   08:19 Daniel: And your subtitle is “shedding light on misconceptions about sex from a Christian wife to Christian women.” But what you said right there was, you couldn’t allow yourself to experience pleasure. If you’re okay with that, let’s explore that a little bit more. You’re not the first to say this on my podcast and I hear it a lot from clients. What did it mean to you to experience pleasure? You’re married now, you knew clearly beforehand that (or, atleast, your value system says that) before marriage, I’m not gonna experience this. You’re saying: you jump in the shower, you get out as fast as you can because you didn’t want to self-stimulate or do anything wrong.   08:56 Sarah: Yep   08:57 Daniel: So now you’re married. What was the barrier for you in allowing yourself to experience that joy?   09:08 Sarah: Well, I think you’re basically asking what kinda shifted that focus for me? 09:16 Daniel: Well, what continued? A lot of men will get into relationships, they know they’re not supposed to pleasure before marriage but now they’re in marriage and they’re willing to let it all go--kinda the dynamic you just explained with you and your husband.   09:28 Sarah: Yeah.   09:29 Daniel: But, what prevented you, I guess...maybe, is it a shift? I guess that’s the question I’m asking you is, is it a shift? Or, it seemed more like though, you carried this perspective: “I’m not allowed to have sexual pleasure even in marriage.” Which seems incongruent with the thoughts and beliefs you had before marriage. What was the barrier to...I mean, you saw your husband having pleasure, did that peak your interest and say, “How can I have that pleasure?” or was it this continued, “I can’t have this. It’s too shameful, it’s too hurtful.” 10:04 Sarah: No, it was definitely too hurtful to me. I would just, lay there. I always like to say I’d lay there like a dead fish, maybe you’ve heard that term before. I would just allow him to just do whatever he wanted to my body. You know? And I was really good at faking orgasm. It was definitely something just to get him off me as soon as I could, right? Because I just felt dirty the whole time, when he was on me. It’s amazing how much conditioning that I had created in my head, and this belief that really ate away at my soul. To know that this shame enveloped my whole body and created a wedge in my marriage to where I looked at him as somebody that just used me. You know?    11:10 Daniel: So, I’m really curious. What took you from that experience to what you say on page 56? It’s this idea of being able to embrace very differently. Practice patience, self-compassion, and have a sense of humor about it. That seems like a complete 180 shift.    11:29 Sarah: Yeah. 11:30 Daniel: What was the journey you had from what you’re experiencing, that “pleasure is painful and icky” to this wonderful perspective of even having a sense of humor about it? What led you there?   11:41 Sarah: Well, not an overnight thing. I’ll just say that right now. [laughs] It definitely was, you know, I had this moment--this wake-up call. Sixteen years in, I was fed up. Basically telling myself over and over and over, “Sarah why can’t you figure this out? Why is this so hard for you? Why can’t you just get over this? Why do you look at sex in this perspective?” Just this why, why why. I finally had this moment of surrender. I didn’t talk to anybody, Daniel. I suffered in silence for years. I didn’t talk to my sisters, definitely not my mom, right? Not even my girlfriends, nobody. 12:30 Daniel: That’s what we’re taught. We’re taught to not even talk to our loved one’s about it, even our spouse.   12:34 Sarah: Exactly, exactly. And of course, then Trent would ask, my husband would ask me, “what is it you want?” And I’m like, “well, I don’t know what i want.” I’ve never allowed myself to have conversations and talk about it. He would just ask me question after question to open my mind and see the possibility and then I’d shut him down all the time, right? It was just this constant battle. So finally, it was just this one day, I called Suzanne, right? I refer to her in my book a lot. She was this woman who I met randomly in Guatemala of all places. I just look back and I’m like, it was by divine design that I would meet her that summer of 2017 so that she could open my eyes.   13:20 Daniel: I actually love what you said about Suzanne, is that she started her journey because of romance novels. I like that.   13:29 Sarah: Yeah. I’m not a big romance novel kind of girl but you know, some people are. Anyway we got to talking. We literally...our airbnbs were literally across from each other. I didn’t know Spanish, she didn’t know Spanish, it was a Sunday afternoon, we had nothing else to do--so we got to know each other. And we literally...like, she just opened up to me. We talked about our sex lives, and this ws the very first time I was like, this is a really fun conversation! It was the first time I actually looked at it with clear eyes to see the potential in me and the hope. Because she had already kinda gone through her own little journey, because she was basically me. She gave me hope to look at it with a different set of eyes. I went from a place of--this is where I talk a lot about, in my book--this view of going from a judgement place to being more curious. She allowed me, she gave me permission. It’s interesting how as women, we need permission, you know? 14:44 Daniel: What I’m curious though, is, what was it about Suzanne that allowed you to open up? you have been fighting this for so many years.   14:52 Sarah: Yeah.   14:53 Daniel: What prevented you from putting up another barrier? “Nope, I’m not talking about that, that’s betraying my husband, that’s betraying myself…”   14:57 Sarah: That’s true.   14:58 Daniel: What was it about her that allowed you to open up?    15:03 Sarah: Good question.   15:04 Daniel: I think that’s the biggest thing with women is finding that opportunity and how, because they get into this same place where “I can’t talk about this and I won’t talk about it and I don’t care how familiar I am with you”--so what was it about her>   15:15 Sarah: Yeah. Well, one of the things that I had been studying and learning about...I love Brené Brown, and at that point in my life I’d really been learning vulnerability and authenticity. When she just started talking to me and exposing herself to me, I was .... she gave me permission to therefore share my things, right? There’s power when you can start a conversation and be like, “I’m messed up.” You know? “Here’s all these parts of me that I don’t understand, can you help me kinda walk through this?”    15:53 Sarah: And that’s what she was for me, you know? And I think that’s what really created that safe place for me. She was like my safe place, because we could relate on so many levels, right? And I think when there’s vulnerability and authenticity in any friendship or relationship, there’s definitely power behind that--to be able to know, “hey, I’m not alone. We can do this together.” And I feel like that’s kinda what I’ve been doing now...you know, here’s my mess and I’m creating it into a message and helping other women to understand “you’re not alone. You’re not broken. There’s hope for you.” And I think that’s what's beautiful about this. And that’s what made that shift for me, is to allow myself to just open up, receive the information from this trusted (well, quick-trusted friend, right? I’d just met her) and just share all of me with her. It was quite an experience, that was for sure.   17:00 Daniel: So it sounds like Brené Brown gave you that courage,    17:04 Sarah: Yeah, exactly.   17:04 Daniel: that platform, or, not platform, kinda that foundation that it’s okay to be vulnerable here. But what I think is important for the audience to be aware of is, you’re still really new in your journey. This was very recently. So, you went to, on that trip back in, if I remember right, 2017? 17:20 Sarah: 2017, yeah. 17:21 Daniel: So you’re only like, three years into this. 17:25 Sarah: Yeah. 17:25 Daniel: That is phenomenal! You cranked out a book in sharing your journey. That’s...   17:31 Sarah: Yeah. 17:32 Daniel: So, emotionally, what is that like for you right now? So, kinda step away from the book and this narrative. You really are, in the context of people who are learning themselves, you’re really at the beginning of this journey. So, emotionally, what are you going through right now?   17:52 Sarah: Emotionally, I mean, you know what? I started it...I just consumed as much information as I could. I finally got to this place where I could..   18:06 Daniel: Do you feel like you’re a lot more confident? Or do you feel like you still have a lot of insecurities or vulnerabilities around it? Where do you feel like you’re at? 18:15 Sarah: I totally feel confident in my sexuality now, and that I can say that--I wouldn’t say 100%, for sure--I’m still learning and growing and I think that’s what’s great about understanding your sexuality because it’s going to always evolve and change because there’s just more things we’re gonna find out about ourselves. But, oh man, just to think about where I’ve...even just two years ago...to where I am now, and being able to have emotional connection with my husband, and him understanding how me, as a woman, how I work. And, you know, he takes the time to emotionally connect with me before even getting into the bedroom, you know? And understanding how my body needs to go through this sexual response cycle, which, I talk about that in my book. There’s a lot of therapists out there that talk about the different sexual response cycles that we go through, right? 19:20 Daniel: Exactly. 19:21 Sarah: And just, understanding that.   19:22 Daniel: So you gave yourself permission to get here so that you can help your husband understand your body because in the past, you know, he’s asking what you want, and as you said, you’re there as a dead fish. Just, finish it out. 19:33Sarah: Yeah. 19:34 Daniel: That, I think, is critical. Like I posted in our Improving Intimacy group today this idea of, especially with women, “okay, I’ve given myself permission, now it’s scary.” Was it scary to give yourself permission? Were you afraid of what you discovered? 19:50 Sarah: Oh, yeah! Yeah. So, of course, we’re going to have those fears. It’s part of our human nature, especially when we’ve created so much judgement and shame around it. There’s going to be fear that comes up. And there’s definitely going to be things that we might come across we don’t quite understand, or we definitely judge really quickly, right?    20:18 Sarah: Masturbation being one of them for me. That was a huge, like...I didn’t want to enter that specific subject until I felt comfortable in my body first, and learning the anatomy of my body first, before I could venture into that. So I feel like it’s a series of stepping stones. You kinda have to evolve into and work into. As I started reading all these books, that’s kind of what happened after I met with Suzanne, she gave me a couple books to read--and from there, I just took off. I was like, thirsting for knowledge for the first time in sex. Once I’d read one book, I went to the next book, and then I went to the next book. Just reading so much content that I could get my hands on. It was this, like, basically cry for help and just learning on my couch from all different kinds of therapists and sex experts and human sexuality professors and so many things, and I just was like, “oh my gosh! I’m finally in a place where I can receive this!” And yes, there’s gonna be content out there, once again, that we just kinda have to like, pick and choose, I don’t know, what resonates with you? 21:39 Daniel: I think that’s...I wanna ask you about that.    21:43 Sarah: Sure.   21:44 Daniel: But before I do, I really appreciate you addressing, briefly, in your book, about masturbation. You give a context for it, the history behind it, the fears around it. 21:51 Sarah: Yeah. 21:52 Daniel: What was that journey for you? You’re addressing that fear, you’re realizing, “okay, I need to understand myself.” Some wives feel like, “okay, I do need to figure out my body, but I will not do it without my husband present.    22:05 Sarah: Yeah.    22:06 Daniel: What was it like for you? Did you find that it was more valuable to do it alone so that you could do it without pressure? Or was it important for you to explore that with your spouse? 22:15 Sarah: So, in the beginning, I chose to explore with my husband. And it’s still a work in progress, Daniel [laughs], it’s still kinda like...I’m not fully 100% like going off by myself all the time, you know what I mean? But at the same time, like, it’s kinda going back to this stepping stone thing. I start with my husband to understand, and know, and feel comfortable, and then [...] it’s still just something that I know, I KNOW--that’s the crazy part, I KNOW--that it’s beneficial for me to know what feels good and what doesn’t, you know?    22:56 Daniel: Absolutely.   22:57 Sarah: But then, the shame just creeps in. And I remember this one specific time, I was like, “okay, Sarah.” I was seriously coaching myself! “Okay, Sarah, we can do this. We can do this!” You know? 23:11 Daniel: And you’re talking about when you’re masturbating, you’re trying to... 23:14 Sarah: Yeah!   23:14 Daniel: ...to get into the headspace.   23:15 Sarah: Like, I’ll go and I’ll coach myself and like, I’ll breathe and everything. A really great book, Slow Sex, was really powerful for me, by the way. 23:24 Daniel: Okay, excellent. Excellent book.   23:25 Sarah: Just the breathing, and… yeah.   23:26 Daniel: I think a lot of...so, we’re speaking to an LDS audience or a Christian-based audience. Sometimes, that book isn’t received very well. She talks about a lot of--   23:37 Sarah: Yeah   23:38 Daniel: So, the audience--it’s an excellent book. Excellent book. It does venture into some concepts and ideas that I think are extremely helpful, but be aware, it is not a warning, but just be aware--you're not going out and getting, you know, an LDS book about how to understand your own sexuality. It’s a very raw and in-depth book. Excellent.   24:00 Sarah: Yeah. 24:01 Daniel: So, I think that’s, so that kinda leads me into my second question, or where we left off before I asked this question. There’s so many resources out there. Often, when people try to explore this route, they stay, you know they kind of follow that insecurity be staying on a very safe path of resources. I don’t wanna name any books, I don’t want anybody to feel like they’re being judged around it, but--   24:27 Sarah: Sure.   24:28 Daniel: How did you, for example, Emily Nagoski, that’s not an LDS author. How did you determine which books were good for you? Whether it’s Jennifer Finlayson-Fife, or Natasha [breaks off]   24:39 Sarah: Uh huh.   24:40 Daniel: What was your internal compass to decide, “this is helpful, this is good in my pursuit of my own sexuality, but being within the framework of my faith?” 24:51 Sarah: Sure. The thing is, when you go on Amazon, there’s going to be all kinds of reviews from all over, right? Of course I would read the reviews, that’s what most people do when they go searching for a book. but also, of course, having my friend Suzanne of course had already read a few. So I kinda had an understanding... 25:14 Daniel: [laughs]   25:15 Sarah: ...from some of the things, right? so then there’s also...I did go and actually look them up, not just about their book but just them as a person. I did some research on who they are and like, what are they teaching, what are they, like, out there, like, what’s their message, kind of thing. And so then I felt more comfortable to kinda open up and seek. And of course, I’d go to my city library, right? And go to the sexuality section and I’d just camp out and just kinda peruse books that way. That’s also helpful ‘cause it’s free. It’s not like I’m going to buy a book. But, there’s so many [pauses] there’s amazing people out there doing amazing things, and I just…   26:09 Daniel: So I guess, let me push a little on this, is--for example, with Slow Sex, what kept you from reading that and saying, “whoa. This is way outside of my value system.” 26:17 Sarah: [laughs]   26:18 Daniel: “I shouldn’t be reading this.” And we’re talking about, just three years ago, you’re Sarah who’s just now recognizing all the rigidity around your sexual understanding and lack of understanding with your sexuality.   26:31 Sarah: Yeah.   26:32 Daniel: What kept you from throwing that book aside and saying, “this is horrible”?   26:39 Sarah: Well, I know this sounds really simple, but what I kept coming back to all the time, Daniel, was “Sarah, quit judging it. Be more curious.” 26:50 Daniel: Not simple at all. That is beautiful.   26:54 Sarah: You know, that’s it. That’s all...and that’s what I had to tell myself all the time. “Sarah, you’re looking at oral sex and you’re judging it. How can I be more curious about how it can apply to me and my relationship in my intimate relationship with my husband?” Like, what does that look like, you know? And so [laughs] it really is simple. But it is so profound to me, and it’s carried me the last three years. And that’s why I really hone-in on it in my book. Waking up women to understand, “quit judging it so much,”   27:34 Daniel: Absolutely love it.   27:34 Sarah: “and look at it from a place of curiosity.”   27:35 Daniel: And I think you see that journey as you go through this, like, starting in...what chapter is this? Page 100 or so. You start talking about loving yourself from the inside out. And you do a full inventory: “what do I lack? What am I insecure about?” (I’m putting some of my own words to this, but…) you take the individual through this process and I think that’s key. absolutely key. So, yes, the answer is simple, but boy, the process can be painful. That’s something that I actually warn my clients when I do this similar type of self-inventory. I have them often review themselves: where did they start--I like the word you used, stop judging it, and just learn from it. And I have people start to do this, is “stop judging your body, in fact, look at yourself. You think you have a fat tummy, who told you that? Who defined that for you?”   28:28 Sarah: Exactly.   28:29 Daniel: “Who took away your agency to keep you from actually looking at yourself in the way you should? Who defined it?” And they’ll go through this emotional process, “oh my goodness, that first boy I dated, he made fun of me or he poked me in the tummy and ever since then, I’ve been insecure. I’m not gonna let that dude take away from my agency. I’m gonna choose how to view my body.” And you kinda do a similar thing here.   28:53 Sarah: Yeah. 28:54 Daniel: Tell us a little more about that.   28:55 Sarah: Yeah, so, this is actually my second book. [laughs] I wrote a book 5 years ago called, MindStrength for Women. And it was all about just loving ourselves and overcoming this idea that we’re not enough and we're not good enough, not smart enough, and all these things, right? Of course I, at that time, I did like, I’d learned a lot about myself. And so the crazy part to all that whole story was, I felt amazing and went through a physical change, emotional change, and all these other things, but I kept sex hidden up in the corner, you know? Like in this closet, you know? So when I actually brought sex in, into the light, right? Now I felt like I’d become this whole person, and then like, a wholly unique being.    29:54 Sarah: And I talk about this term called “sexy confidence” in my book, and how as women, it’s not so much about our body or anything of that nature. It’s about, how do we walk into a room, and how do we make people feel? What kind of energy are we bringing into the room? Is this a loving environment? And this is where I kinda had to do this with my husband, too. Because, when you’re in the bedroom, as women, we start to...like, if we even put on a piece of lingerie or something, we start to immediately judge our body that it’s not looking so amazing.    30:35 Sarah: And I talk about, when I’m with women and stuff, I talk about this idea of like, you know, there’s this...we as women get into serious judgement, but when we can come from learning to love ourselves from the way God sees us (because obviously that’s important), that we can be able to be at one with our husbands, even. And not focus so much on the belly fat that’s hanging out when we’re trying to get on top of him, you know? And just like, how we can emotionally connect instead of looking at our bodies and judging every nook and cranny that we don’t like, kind of thing.   31:25 Daniel: Love that.  Now, you jumped into something later on, about how women need novelty. I thought this was interesting. I believe it. I’m one who likes to shatter myths out there. But the prevailing thought is, men need novelty. Women want consistency. Tell me more about this.    31:45 Sarah: Yeah. 31:46 Daniel: I think this is fascinating. I don't think anybody else is addressing it, and I’ve read a lot of books, so tell me a little about your discovery there.   31:56 Sarah: Yeah. Well, I think [...] I do believe women, we do need novelty. We just don’t think we need it [laughs]. I don’t know if that makes sense. We do love,   32:11 Daniel: Yes   32:12 Sarah: we like change. I don’t like the same position every time, I mean, anybody else? I mean, once I actually, was the--I mean, yes, I did missionary position for years, trust me, I know. But now that I’ve educated myself and I’ve found other ways to, you know, “quote, unquote” “sized up the bedroom” I actually do thrive on change in the bedroom. It keeps the spark alive and it creates more novelty, you know? 32:43 Daniel: Well, I think that’s important,   32:45 Sarah: Yeah   32:46 Daniel: because I think a lot of men get criticized because they want something new and that’s scary for their partners, but I--   32:51 Sarah: Yeah   32:52 Daniel: You’re realizing, part of the problem is you wanted it to be changed up, you wanted it exciting, you wanted it novel. And I think that’s part of the discovery for a lot of women in discovering their desire is, “wow, I’m realizing I’m not as vanilla as I thought I was.” 33:07 Sarah: Yeah. 33:08 Daniel: “Where will this end?” Were you concerned with that? Did you feel you were gonna go into desires and passions and things that were forbidden for you? What was that experience like for you? 33:19 Sarah: Yeah. Well, of course in the beginning--because, you know, my shame was still enveloped around me in certain points where it would rise up, you know? But then I’d have to open my eyes, like, “Sarah, quit judging it again!” You know? But at the same time, I realized how we can add just more experiences that we haven’t had necessarily before, in like, the safety of our own couple relationship.   33:55 Daniel: Just going back to the concept of not judging it and allow it to flow naturally.    34:01 Sarah: Yeah.   34:02 Daniel: As Emily Nagoski says, don’t put on the brakes. Just... 34:05 Sarah: Yeah, the brakes. I love that analogy, too. Oh my gosh, shes...yeah. Don’t put on the brakes, keep the accelerator going, because, you know. Sometimes, you don’t know if you’re even going to like it. So, quit judging that you’re not going to like it before you even start it, right? And allow yourself to receive. Okay, that’s another thing. Oh my gosh. As women, we give, give, give all day long, to everybody and everything. All the time. Right? So when I was like, “Sarah, you deserve to receive. You get to receive pleasure, you get to receive these different avenues of novelty, and this is okay for you.” Like, once again, I [laughs] I’ve had to coach myself. I do thisl ike, mental inventory in my head before I have sex with my husband. Like, “Sarah, we can do this. It’s fine. This is something that we’ve talked about, we’ve had discussions about this, we feel comfortable that this is something we want to choose to do and explore, and let’s be open to that.” So, yeah. I'm really good at coaching myself now. 35:19 Daniel: Yeah, it sounds like it. Sounds like you’ve come a long way in just three years. I like the other concept you’ve shared about sex drives, desire level. The differences aren’t the problem. Share with the audience what you meant by that.   35:35 Sarah: Differences aren’t the problem. We label ourselves when we first get married [laughs]. Now, like, you know as I’ve learned, not all men are higher desire partners, okay? Right? 35:49 Daniel: Not at all, right. 35:50 Sarah: Right. And so, we are really quick to label who’s higher, who’s lower, you know? And we, there’s a …. do you want me to quote books in here? 36:05 Daniel: Absolutely! Tell your story. Yep. 36:08 Sarah: Okay. One of the books, Passion Paradox, have you heard of that book? 36:13 Daniel: Actually, no, I haven’t read nor have I heard of it.   36:16 Sarah: Okay, I’m trying to think of the author right now, but it was...it’s like, an old book. It was like....it’s old. But anyway, there’s this...he talks about this whole idea of passion. Because, sometimes like, as women, we label ourselves as lower desire, say that we are, right? And we view the partner as the higher desire. But there’s different ways of expressing and showing passion to each other. And it doesn’t necessarily have to be just like a sexual thing. Sometimes, in different seasons of our lives, we kinda ebb and flow, and you know, go from one extreme to another or something. And I think this whole idea that we put labels is unfortunate, because I chose to give myself that label for all those years, and I clung on to it. And I would just view my husband, like, “you just want sex all the time. And I’m just gonna sit here, and just kinda vent to you that I don’t wanna have it, because I’ve already labelled myself that I don’t want it.”   37:30 Daniel: As opposed to learning how to meet the needs of each other.   37:33 Sarah: Yeah, yeah. 37:34 Daniel: I think that theme is so important throughout your book. I refer to it as breaking the culture of sexual silence, and I love that you hit on it throughout the entirety of your book. Especially, I believe, in chapter 14 talking about it. Even if I don’t know a lot about it, talk about it. Talk about it. Talk about everything you know about sex, and become comfortable with it. That is so important. As you learned early on with your mom, and with other friends, you couldn’t talk about it. And that is one of the biggest desire killers and barriers to education. So, learning how to break that culture of silence around sexuality, even when you don’t know fully what you’re talking about, start to share. That’s what we do. As kids, we talk about things we don’t know, and then parents correct us. People inform us. You go into it non-judgmentally, again, another thing that you carry throughout the book. Absolutely wonderful. You want to tell us a little bit about how you...what that was like for you as you realized you’re in this process, you’re learning. What were some of the fears, hesitations, or positive experiences you had with sharing freely your knowledge?   38:45 Sarah: Ok, so, you know I’m reading all these books, right? And consuming everything that I could. And I just, I remember always just like walking out, like, in public, you know, in Target or wherever, and seeing all these women. And I”m like, “oh. If they only knew. oh if they only knew.” Right? [laughs] and there’s a point where…’cause I truly believe I’ve obviously come to a place where I--and you’ve seen this in my book--I’m a realist. Like, I really share the dark sides of me, and my hang-ups and everything, and I’m okay with it. I've come to a place where I don’t have this fear of judgement of what other people might think of me, because I’ve realized that the more I share, the more respect I get from people. And so, as I was reading all these things, and I’m going out into public and I see all these women, and I’m just wondering, “I wonder if she’s like...if she was like me.” Because I’m now, not. I don’t really...it’s hard for me, sometimes, to even take myself back, even three years ago, to where I was. Because I’m so much more happier now. But sometimes i have to take myself there so that I can be, you know, relatable, to other women, right? So, of course in our LDS culture, [laughs] I have definitely … I’ve lost friendships. I’ll be honest.   40:18 Daniel: What do you mean? I think I know what you’re talking about there, because I’ve experience the same, but share with the audience what that means. Just because you’re being passionate and open about sexuality, you lost friends? 40:28 Sarah: Yeah. 40:29 Daniel: What happened there? 40:30 Sarah: Yeah, so...just in small conversations, or I might have written like a post or something on facebook about a book that I was reading. And then it just rubs somebody the wrong way, you know? And I've actually had a few friends who’ve vocally come and told me that they don’t agree with what I’m talking about and learning about. And that’s fine. It was of course hard to hear, ‘cause it’s like a blow. It’s like this form of rejection that you don’t want to ever experience in your life. But at the same time, there was like, 30+ women behind me saying “thank you. I learned so much from you,” you know? And so, it’s just our human nature to cling-on to those one or two people that give you that negative comment, right? But it definitely propelled me to keep sharing, because I know how my life has changed because of it. And my marriage has changed because of it. And I can’t deny it.    41:43 Sarah: So as I’ve opened up about it, and talked to people within my neighborhood or community, like I just know that I am making strides with people. I actually, just yesterday, I had a friend who had finally come around. I’ve been talking to her for like, since I started reading books, and just recently she was like, “Sarah, I think I’m ready.” You know? And you just have to kinda wait for those people to come around, and they will, eventually. And they’ll realize just how powerful this can be, when they can open and be more curious to see what their life can be like if they chose to look at it with a different perspective.    42:34 Daniel: Absolutely.   42:35 Sarah: So yeah. 42:35 Daniel: In other words, you’re not pushing your narrative. 42:36 Sarah: No.   42:38 Daniel: People know what you know.   42:38 Sarah: No, yeah. 42:40 Daniel: Because, you’re open about it. And you’re waiting for them to come and seek you out. 42:43 Sarah: Yeah. 42:44 Daniel: That’s excellent. 42:45 Sarah: Exactly. yeah, just kinda wait for them and whenever they’re ready, I’ll be there with open arms to teach them and to guide them through their own experience. The crazy part is [laughs] I have no desire to be a sex therapist like yourself, or you know, go and be a professor or anything of that nature. I just love learning about it. I feel like, I don’t know, I guess people can kind of resonate more with a girl off the street I guess first, and then I can guide them to therapists or whoever else they need help with, right? Because I obviously don’t have all the tools, but I’m their starting point, you know? And that’s what I love about me being open about it, is that I can be their starting point and then they can move from there to seek more professional help if they need it, you know? 43:41 Daniel: Absolutely. What a wonderful theme that you’ve carried out through the book. I think it’s been wonderfully done, I think you’ve communicated well. Are there...as we wrap up here, is there anything else about the book or your experiences that you feel is important for the audience to know about you, and your journey, or maybe possibly the journey that they’re going through? 44:02 Sarah: Oh yeah, I mean, as you [...] just, the book, in and of itself, it just breaks down so many things. You know, out there in our audience, you  might have someone who feels like they are broken, right? Or, they feel like, that there’s no hope in their marriage. We didn’t even touch on porn, that’s a whole-nother enchilada in and of itself…   44:28 Daniel: So, I… hold off on that, because I--   44:31 Sarah: [laughs]   44:31 Daniel: I love that you refer to porn the way you did in your book, as a compulsion, as a temptation, as a potential device in a marriage or [pauses] divisiveness in a marriage.    44:45 Sarah: Yeah.   44:46 Daniel: And I love the language that you used in there, and I would be interested in exploring that a little more, if you’d like. Do you want to tell us a little bit more about it, and why you included it? 44:56 Sarah: Yeah. Well, obviously from personal experience, it was not me, it was my husband’s, right? I think it’s just, he actually, it was the [....]  I remember the day, and I’m sure a lot of men and women here can remember the day that their spouse came to them with this news, right? Or they found out in some other way, right? That’ll be a day that you won’t ever forget.    45:24 Sarah: But, that day, he came and approached me, and it was during this time that I had finished writing my first book. And I was, like I said before, I was in a really good place, and just felt pretty good about life because I was working on myself. And I think that’s what’s key here, in this chapter particularly, is, whether man or woman, right? Really focus on, what are you doing in the relationship? What can you do to better yourself, to become a better version of yourself? And that’s kinda where i was at that point, luckily.    46:01 Sarah: And that’s when Trent felt comfortable to actually approach me and tell me about his porn addiction. Because, you know, he had these fears that I would leave him and all these things, right? Like everybody might have. And he came, and he told me, and it was just this, you know, gut-wrenching kind of feeling. And the first question that came into my mind, “what’s wrong with me? Why does he feel like he has to do this? I can’t believe he’s done this. He’s this amazing man, how did porn get a hold of him?” Kind of thing. And so, back then, I was doing a lot of video journaling, and so after he told me, I just was like, “kay, just hold on a second, I need to go into my closet and kinda think about this.”    46:48 Sarah: So, I went to my closet and for ten minutes I just kind of, just like, talked to myself. Like, just basically went through, in my head, what I’d just heard. And, it’s interesting, I still have this video and I treasure it, but...so you’ll notice (well, you won’t notice, because you’re not watching it), but in the first five minutes, I’m just like, processing, like, “why him? Why me?” Everything right? This pity party. And then, the last five minutes, I just kinda make this shift. It was God telling me, “Sarah, he’s a son of God.” And that’s all I heard. That’s all I heard, and I knew that I needed to walk with him in this journey.    47:34 Sarah: I was not to fix him, because I can’t fix him, right? But I can walk with him to, you know, figure out how to help him navigate, you know, and how to get the help that he needed kind of stuff. And so, that was [...] once again, it’s a simple thing, but that was the one thing that really carried me through that experience. Just recognizing that he’s a son of God and together we can work through the porn addiction, and we can come out on top. And we definitely have. And it’s been an incredible experience. But there’s definitely been pain. It hasn’t been easy. But, there’s definitely a light at the end of the tunnel.   48:22 Daniel: A lot of people are listening, saying, “okay, yeah, you just shared he just dumped this big thing on you.” And if I remember right, you even equate pornography to adultery, or cheating, on the relationship, am I remembering correctly? 48:39 Sarah: Yeah. 48:39 Daniel: That’s a very big view to have. One that, generally, is very divisive in a relationship. And you also refer to it as an addiction. And if anybody’s been in my group, they know how sensitive I am about that terminology.    48:54 Sarah: Yeah.   48:54 Daniel: You actually went and learned a lot from Cameron Staley, 48:58: Oh, man. 48:59 Daniel: about mindfulness, which is not an addiction approach, it’s a very mindful approach. 49:03Sarah: Yeah. 49:03 Daniel: Which is very much in harmony with the theme of your book: non-judgemental, non-rigid around these things but being more mindful and self-aware. 49:15 Sarah: Self-awareness is huge, yeah. 49:17 Daniel: And I think that led you to this [...] because usually, the concepts of addiction don’t lead you into the direction that you’re talking about, in fact, it leads you in a very opposite direction. But I love that mindfulness, and fortunately, meeting up with Cameron, or whatever you learned from him, it led you to this idea.   49:34 Sarah: Yeah. 49:35 Daniel: One of the concepts that you shared there was, and I’m gonna put it in my terminology: “I don’t view sex as a punishment or reward, I view it as communcation.” And you talk about there, “yes, it’s not your fault, and you as the wife, you’re not responsible for his behavior. However, why are you punishing him by not giving him sex? Is that your because of your insecurity?” I realize I’m butchering your words, I’m putting in mine.   49:59 Sarah: Yeah. 50:00 Daniel: And correct me if I’m misrepresenting your train of thought there. But, you're saying, “embrace them. Don’t withhold sex because of mabye, your insecurities.”   50:09 Sarah: Yep, that’s the worst thing you could do, is to withhold it.   50:10 Daniel: Absolutely, absolutely. Although, giving them sex, you shouldn’t have this expecation: now, he’s gonna be safe, you know? In fact, I think you pointed that out, if I remember right. 50:20 Sarah: Yes, I did. 50:21 Daniel: You said somethinglike, “okay, I’m gonna give him all”--because some women do that--”I’m gonna give him all the sex he needs so he avoids it.”   50:26 Sarah: Then he won’t even go look, yeah.   50:27 Daniel: And that’s a reward or punishment approach, as opposed to communication and connecting.   50:33 Sarah: Yes. 50:33 Daniel: And so, ironically, taking that other approach of withholding or giving too much, is very much objectification, and divisive in the relationship. It’s not connected. And so I love that you embrace that idea, of “it’s not my responsibility, but I’m not going to miss this opportunity to connect with my partner. Because I view porn in this context”--whatever it is-- “I’m not going to let that get in my way of connecting with my partner.” I thought that was beautiful.   51:02 Sarah: Yeah, just finding that middle ground. I mean, I remember coming home and asking anything I could about porn. Because, I had no idea what that world was like. None. And so, it blew my mind to see, like, wow. I really don’t know anything! But at the same time, like, let’s come together and have conversations to see, like, how we can navigate this new normal. Come to a middle ground to connect. I mean, we uh, this could be a whole-nother podcast. That definitely, that experience...I mean, it didn’t take me on my sex journey, because I found out about this, probably like 5 years ago.    51:51 Daniel: You mean, his use of porn? 51:54 Sarah: Yes, his use of porn. And so, there were still a couple years in between there where I was just trying to like, you know, I’d have [...] our communication was better, it wasn’t the best as it is now, but we were definitely communicating. And I wasn't that one that was like, you know, denying him and like, that kind of thing. Because, I was kind of understanding how, you know, I needed to create this middle ground to see how we can evolve into something better. And so then, when I finally accepted like, “okay, I need to work on my sexuality,” then that took us to a whole-nother level. And he’s been amazing and [pauses], yeah. He doesn’t have those compulsions anymore and even if he does, he comes and talks to me about it, you know? And so, we’ve created a very healthy relationship in regards to porn.    52:52 Daniel: Sarah, that is wonderful. I would actually really love having you on again, at a future time, to talk about that.    52:58 Sarah: Yeah. 53:00 Daniel: Again, the book is Underneath it All...You’re Naked. Wonderful theme throughout the book. I think you did an amazing job with it, and I think the audience would really benefit from it. Thank you so much for coming on.   53:11 Sarah: Thank you. Aw, yeah, it’s been a pleasure. I appreciate you letting me have an opportunity to share my story. 53:18 Daniel: Thank you.   53:18 Sarah: It’s always something I like to talk about [laughs].   53:20 Daniel: Oh, clearly, 53:21 Sarah: It changed my life. Like, literally changed my life.   53:24 Daniel: Yeah. Your journey has been--   53:25 Sarah: Saved me. 53:26 Daniel: amazing. Thank you so much, Sarah. 53:28 Sarah: You’re welcome. [music]

Is Masturbation a Sin? Mike Frazier Asks the Hard Questions.

Full Transcript: 0:00:00.0 Narrator: Welcome to Improving Intimacy, a podcast to help single and married, Latter-Day Saints strengthen their family connections and marriages. Daniel A. Burgess is the host of Improving Intimacy, Daniel is a Marriage and Family Therapist, father, husband, and author. Here's Daniel on this episode of Improving Intimacy. [music] 0:00:26.3 Mike Frasier: Alright men, welcome to today's episode. I've got a special guest for us today. This is Daniel Burgess. So he is a family therapist that runs a family therapy, and helps couples and individuals with their marriages, and I met him in his Facebook group, Improving Intimacy, and used to be called Mormon marriages. Now it's called In Latter Day Saint marriages. 0:00:52.7 MF: I complied. [laughter] 0:00:55.3 MF: So yeah, anything else you want the audience know about you Daniel? 0:01:00.0 DB: That's great, I love that. Yeah, come check it out. 0:01:03.2 MF: Yeah, yeah he does great work. And I've really enjoyed his... 0:01:07.6 DB: Thank you. 0:01:08.6 MF: Yeah, his group and the stuff he's doing. So yeah, so today we're talking about a more sensitive topic, at least in the LDS Community, which is masturbation, and Daniel has done a lot of study about this, a lot of work on it, it was coming into our group, actually, Daniel, that kinda got me thinking about it in a different way. And was really a good journey for me. 0:01:35.9 DB: Wonderful. 0:01:36.8 MF: Actually, so I appreciate your work on that, so I guess what I wanted to start with, and I think this is really the big question on most LDS people's minds, is whether masturbation is actually a sin or not, and when I asked that question, I wanted to look up what sin actually was. And so I think this is a good definition an immoral act that's considered to be a transgression against divine law, meaning there's a law that says, no masturbation. And then when you break that, you are breaking that law. So, yeah. Thoughts on that. 0:02:14.0 DB: That's a great question. It's one that I get quite frequently and to kinda set up the answer here, I just did an interview for my podcast Improving Intimacy for Latter-Day Saint relationships with Kari Ferguson, who wrote the book, The OCD Mormon. And the reason why I bring that up is a big part of our discussion is something that I've seen, definitely in clients who tend to ask this question is rigidity in their thinking around spirituality and sin, and how that negatively affects ironically, maybe even paradoxically, our spirituality, a fabulous book a wonderful person, and we explore those thoughts in deep and I'll reference you to that for further discussion. But in short, I love that definition that I learned at least on my mission was, Anything acting against the will of God is sin, and sin is essentially a guide for us to draw closer to Him, not to sin, to draw closer to Him, but to avoid sin or things that separate us from God, and when we can think about in that context, we can now see self-mastery in a different view. We even talked about transgression, Joseph Fielding Smith says there's a big difference between transgression and sin, transgression is one of the things that we as humans learn to be better at that heavenly Father expects us to make mistakes, that's why the atone is there. 0:03:42.4 DB: Now, to answer that question, is masturbation a sin? I don't wanna sound avoidant of the answer, but it really depends. It really depends on the person. Is this drawing you closer to God? Is this helping you understand your body, is this creating better self-awareness, self-mastery, is it creating peace in your life? If it isn't, then that needs to be explored and understood better, that's the whole purpose of this life is to master our minds and our bodies, and what does that look like? Especially when we're dealing with different biology, and sometimes people say you should never masturbate. Well, that may be true for that person, that may not be a biological need, or when I use the word need here, I'm talking about experiences that provide enjoyment and pleasure, of course, we could go a whole lifetime without masturbating and not die. And I've heard people use that argument, you won't die, so you don't need it. Well, then we could go to Maslow's hierarchy of needs. We won't die without people loving us in our life, but our life will be pretty miserable, right? [laughter] 0:04:50.2 DB: There are cases actually that children have died out of neglect, of love, and that's true, but I think the point is, there is... I think when we look at this in a very rigid way, is sin black and white, we kinda cross in this line of obsessive compulsive thought process of or scrupulosity, and focus more on the growth in our relationship with ourself and the Lord. 0:05:16.9 MF: Yeah, I love that. I love that idea of those questions that you posed, of... Instead of, Is this sin? Which like you said, is about, oh right wrong did I follow the rule right or did I not follow the rule right. It's like, No. Is this bringing me closer to God, is this helping me enjoy my life more? I think once you're married, an important question with however you're using your sexuality is, is this bringing me closer to my spouse or not? And I think with that too, you mentioned, I think for women, this happens maybe sometimes more than guys where that exploration process, maybe it hasn't happened as much as it has maybe with some guys before marriage, and actually exploring that and figuring out what works for you can be a gift to yourself and to your marriage. Thoughts on that. 0:06:22.6 DB: Yeah, absolutely, and I think that's the main goal, and that's why I set up my group in proving intimacy in Latter-day Saint relationships is for us, what are we doing in our relationships, our intimate relationships that we can improve on to draw us closer to God that is the underlining and the core focus here, how can we understand and learn God and draw closer to Him and in our relationships? And so that could involve... Often we sacrifice or we ignore, or we neglect our sexual self and don't really explore and understand that, like we do the other aspects of our spiritual life to draw closer to God, and so this is very much a negotiation a discussion with our partner and with the Lord, and as long as it's in that confined, I believe it's healthy, whatever that decision is, I have seen masturbation benefit and reward relationships like no other thing has in their life. It provides options. It provides a discussion, and I think as long as you're taking it to the Lord, and you address it with your spouse and you come up with what works for you, then you're doing what the Lord wants you to do, drawing closer to Him and your spouse. 0:07:37.2 MF: Yeah. Awesome, so with that, to look at the other side of this, because I think some people hearing that, they're gonna think, Oh well then you know that I can do whatever I want, like if I wanna go have sex with a bunch of other people and we're both okay with that, then that should be fine. Right. So what would you say to that thought? Well, you know, I prayed about it. And that was my answer. It's fine to go do that. 0:08:15.6 DB: Yeah, well, it's interesting 'cause I heard kind of two different comments there's one, kind of this non-monogamous exploration, as long as you agree with it, it's fine, and the other one is anything... Well, I guess they're kinda the same thing. Anything goes now, and the first thought I would have or question is, This seems to fall under this black and white thinking is either it's absolutely right or it's absolutely wrong, and I think the Lord is definitely, at least in our day, made some clear guidelines in the temple, we specifically commit to each other and in this relationship, and now does that mean anything goes or not? I think there's definitely a constraint there, we've committed very specifically to each other, that we will figure this out between each other and the Lord, I don't think there's a cart blanche there that says, yeah, anything else on your relationship is okay, the purpose, like I was pointing out is, is it drawing you closer to your spouse and to the Lord, do you feel like you're honoring your temple covenants that you specifically made? Now, when we talk about masturbation and things that help improve desire towards each other. I think those things are open for discussion and prayer with Heavenly Father. 0:09:43.5 DB: Now, going back to your question, some can argue, Well, we've both decided we feel closer to each other when we could explore outside of the relationship, and I'll be frank, if that's what you have decided, I personally don't think that's what the Lord has said, and I don't see any justification for that. And so I'm not gonna tell somebody that they got false revelation, that's not my job as a therapist, my job is to help them understand how to live a healthier life, and so there's an argument for everything, and I could totally see where people can... And I've seen it, well, I'm gonna go and do whatever. And when I hear that phrase though, that triggers this kind of black and white thinking, going from one extreme of rigidity to another, and I would push on that, I would really explore that, is that really what you're doing? Are you going from a... I'm gonna just say kind of like a repressed or rigid thinking to, wow, the doors just blow open, I'm gonna do whatever I want. That would be a concern to me, and I would explore that first. That's a concern to me. 0:10:52.9 MF: Yeah, I think that you brought up something super important, I think they're both basically immature reactions. 0:11:00.3 DB: Excellent, Yeah. 0:11:00.8 MF: Yeah, it's like, Oh, either somebody has to tell me everything I have to do, or nobody can tell me anything that I have to do, like they're both pretty immature versus saying Like look, Okay, here's my read of the scriptures, or if that's what I believe we're kind of assuming someone's active LDS or Christian, like trying to do what God wants them to do. 0:11:27.3 MF: And if you come into it with that in mind and you're like, Hey, I read the scripture, I did... If you went to the temple, I made these promises. I'm gonna be just faithful to my wife, so I wanna keep it within that, but then within that, like you said, growing, developing that maturity to say, "Yeah, this does help. And this does not help." One of the things I like is," by their fruits, you shall know them", and I think that so applies here, if you try it and the fruit is good, good. If you try it and the fruit is not good, you say, Okay, that was an experiment, wasn't good, we're gonna cut that one off so, yeah. 0:12:14.1 DB: Yeah. Fair points. 0:12:16.5 MF: Yeah, so for those [laughter].. Maybe the satisfies of the more OCD Mormon folks out there. I know you've done quite a bit of research on How it sort of the... The church has looked at masturbation over time? And kind of how that has shifted, sort of back and forth, maybe you could just give us certainly a brief kind of summary of how that's gone. 0:12:43.0 DB: Yeah, really, really quick summary here. There's very little documentation from the restoration from 1830 to about 1890, we're getting more and more, as the Joseph Smith papers are in development and it's exciting. Public access, a lot of people go to it. When I was researching it, I had to spend hours and hours and in archives and trying to find these documentation. There really isn't much. In fact, we had a very... If I could use the word progressive view of intimacy. We were a very different church. We viewed sexual relationships as beautiful. And in a time that orgasms were viewed as dangerous and lethal. They literally believed that, "Each time you had an orgasm, you took years off your life." This was that idea back then, that really didn't end until about 1920s, maybe a little earlier from that. And we had a very opposing view to that, not... In a very positive way. And we only start to see... Even if I could say it's negative comments about masturbation, only in the context of serious transgressions where people are having... I wanna be appropriate for the show. Let's just say sexual abuse issues. Let's just keep it in those terms. And there's ideas that were prominent at that time, not just in the church, but because we're a melting pot of religions at the restoration. 0:14:22.8 DB: We have a lot of traditional cultural ideas being brought in thinking that masturbation led to certain behaviors including homosexuality and to other sexual transgressions. And so the only things you can really find that I'm aware of now and I've researched as extensively as you mentioned, is in meeting notes where some brethren will say it's because they did this and they would reference masturbation, and this is where it would lead. There was never any official stance against masturbation. In fact, it was about 1920 that there was a conference address of some guest who says, "We approach sexuality", and I can provide these links in references to you offline and you could include. 0:15:06.2 MF: Yeah. 0:15:06.6 DB: But, saying," I'm impressed that you Latter day Saints can talk about sexuality, including masturbation so openly", which blew my mind. I was like, really? They... I mean not only to recognize that, but to even make it part of a public address. And then in 1930, the Relief Society president at the time was called to provide mental health guidance to the church. And she provided, Amy Lyman Brown, it provided these lessons, and one of those lessons was "Parents, don't over-react to your children masturbating. You'll cause depression, anxiety, even suicidal thoughts." very fascinating. It wasn't until about the '40s that President Clark started to interject other ideas. And long story short, my interpretation of that was because of the Kinsey books came out on human sexuality and the father of the sexual revolution. And I think the church was trying to do something to differentiate ourselves from that movement. Which I both understand, but also see kind of a shift in the opposite direction. 0:16:11.8 DB: And it's only at that time that we see really negative comments and emphasis on the dangers of masturbation and emphasizing it's a sin. And then we see this changing in the mid-80s, due to seeing, Amy Lyman Brown was right. We're seeing an increase of depression, suicidal thoughts, and negative behavior and unhealthy behavior. And so since the 80s, we've been seeing a more healthy shift towards... Look it... This doesn't cause homosexuality, it doesn't cause all these things that we believe they did. And it is part of a healthy development. And so they haven't specifically come out and reversed some of those comments for strength of youth manuals and whatnot. But we definitely see a shift of them eliminating those phrases and terminologies out of the manuals and handbooks and seeing a more positive shift towards... Look, figure this out between You and the Lord, especially in marriage. So that's a really, really horrible summary, but... [overlapping conversation] 0:17:15.7 MF: I thought it was great. [laughter] 0:17:16.4 DB: Okay, good, good. 0:17:17.6 MF: I don't know, it's great. 0:17:19.3 DB: Very short and precise. 0:17:19.8 MF: Well, yeah, I think the way that... After I read through your materials, when I looked at it, it was like... It's okay. Or it's even part of normal development. 0:17:30.2 DB: Was being addressed. Yeah. 0:17:30.8 MF: Yeah, to bad bad bad, and now we're kind of coming back up to... I think, like you said, President Nelson's really focusing on personal revelation and using this... This can be a place where you really can use personal revelation and you really can look at What are the fruits of exploring that, of looking at how sexuality is part of who you are. 0:18:03.4 DB: Yeah. And let me add real quick. One thing when we analyze developments in the church, whether doctrinal, History or whatever. We make a mistake of seeing things in isolation and we gotta realize there was a lot going on during that period of '40s. We had one of the fastest booming growth of the church, to this date from the '40s to the '70s. And so the brethren were also trying to address How do we address a growing church? They created the department of correlation and everything else, and so they tried to standardize teachings across an entire world of membership. And so there's bound to be learning, lessons learned and things not perfectly instituted. And so I think it's important for us to take ourselves out of the vacuum and realize thousands of variables are involved here. It's not just is something... We go back to that rigidity, is something right or wrong? And I think what we're doing is now we're learning, How do we teach a worldwide right church? Not just the Salt Lake Church anymore. 0:19:07.3 MF: Yeah, awesome, and super helpful. I think, like you mentioned, it's not so much, but we're trying to grow out of the even home teaching like, Oh, once a month, go, go, go, and that's like Minister, meaning, take care of these people and use your judgment and your... Like what these texts mean... 0:19:32.8 DB: Excellent example. 0:19:33.8 MF: In addressing that but I think with sexuality, we're starting to see some of that as well, there are structures, there are lines, I think being sexually faithful to your wife is a pretty clear line or husband, right, as far as an actual commitment or an actual law that God's given us, but then outside of that saying, Okay, how do I... Like, sexual is part of who I am. It's weird, but Jennifer Finlayson-fife talks about this, how God is a sexual being and heavenly mother's a sexual being, it's weird for us to think about, but we're created in their image, they have that too. And how do they use that... One of the things that you work with people who struggle with, pornography too and want to use less or whatever, and one of the things that I have encouraged people to ask themselves, it's like, Okay, I have my sexuality, like How do I want to use that in the world? 0:20:44.1 DB: Yes. 0:20:45.6 MF: And then that becomes the standard instead of, Oh, can I do this or can I do that? It's like, No. So for me, my own statement is I want to use my sexuality to connect deeply with and have fun with my wife, and so now I look and say, Okay, is this helping me get there or is it detracting from that and that's been much more useful than going down this OCD. 0:21:10.2 DB: Yes. 0:21:10.6 MF: OCD track. 0:21:12.7 DB: Especially for the men. I wanna emphasize this for us men, one of the negative consequences of how we've treated sexuality over the years, and I'm not just speaking church culture, but it definitely was reinforced by church culture, is men talking about sexuality is synonymous with creepiness and weird and dangerous, and we've unfortunately associated words like lust as a negative thing, and I realize like Matthew 5-27 uses the word lust, and this is a perfect example of how we've had a false narrative created for us and this is what I mean, Matthew 5-27 is actually misinterpretation. The word actually should be covet, not lust lust is actually that specific word translated correctly is used as a positive throughout scripture, in Luke 2:22-15, Matthew 13-17, Luke 15-16 and Luke 16-21, all describe Christ Himself lusting after something, whether it's the Passover or righteousness, or whatever. And I realize it's a little nuance, but I think it's an important nuance because I often hear, I've got to avoid lust. 0:22:32.0 DB: And why is this important? Because he emphasizes it's scripturally based, lust means to desire beauty, to desire something good, God like covet is negative, it's not Christ-focused, it's not, God focused, which has resulted us men specifically. Let me emphasize why I'm bringing this up too 'cause it's a conversation I frequently have with colleagues and clients is, you may be wondering, and I realize I'm blending a little bit of topics here, but bear with me, is you may be wondering, Well, am I rigid in my thinking No, I just wanna be perfect. Well, that's one indicator that you might actually have rigid scrupulosity thinking, and the other is that my mind just went blank sorry. That you can't... Oh, that's what it was. You can't pray to God about your desires. And I see this more with men than with women, and this is a constant paradox, it's like women who speak up about sexuality are praised for their courageousness. Men who talk up about their sexuality, or I pray to God about this will be perceived as creepy or weird, or we may feel creepy or weird, I can't talk to God about my sexuality. That may be an indicator that you have rigid thinking around this, if our heavenly parents desire us to have sexual feelings and desires, we should be able to freely talk to them about it, and if we can't... 0:24:03.0 DB: That's the negative narrative, I believe that we've been taught as men, and if we want sexual relationships, we're looked at as pawning or begging or sex focus or lusting after, no, it's beautiful, we desire to have sexual relations with our spouse, and we need to speak up and break that narrative and rewrite how we talk about that and how that talk is being perceived, I think that's why a lot of men default to the joking or the silliness or whatever, because that's what they've been told to do and who they are, and we need to take back that narrative and like the women can, I wanna talk about sexuality and be praised for it, it's a beautiful, healthy thing, I desire to be a sexual being, and that's not weird. And I think that's something we men should remember. 0:25:00.3 MF: No, a great point, great point. Yeah, I think when we look at owning that and directing that, it's a powerful force, powerful energy, and deciding how you wanna direct... I love what you said about taking it to God saying, Look, I have these desires, like what's the way to direct them, like and Alma talks about bridling our passions, it doesn't mean that you stop your passions or kill your passions, it's... No, you bridle... Let me direct them to where you want to go. 0:25:38.4 DB: And one last thought on this whole idea of what it looks like to desire. One of the things that I find is beautiful in my relationship with my wife, and I think is appropriate, is we are able to say "That person looks beautiful", male or female. She's attractive. He's attractive. And our relationship is not threatened. Our trust in our relationship is solid. It isn't dependent on whether or not we speak up our desires or not. And that's a false narrative, that's another false narrative is, now in context, right, if, for example, trauma history, we've gotta respect and understand that context. We can't just say, "Tough, I don't care about your trauma, or I don't care about your insecurities." I have worked with a client in the past where the wife acknowledged she has huge amounts of insecurities, and because her husband... Her husband was looking at an Instagram model, not even pornography in its truest sense, and he acknowledged it, he's never had a history of anything. She's required him to purge himself of any of that desire versus her looking at her self and building on her issues around insecurity. It's a team effort. You both need a partner in this experience, as I think you know and understand, but when it becomes a one-sided thing, blaming a partner, and there's clearly breaking the line, right? 0:27:08.1 DB: It's interesting though, when a woman says they desire or they think something that's beautiful, it could be totally fine and not a threat to your relationship. But if a man says that, this is that false narrative, it's impossible for a man to see something that's beautiful, acknowledge it, and still have a fully committed cleaving unto their partner relationship. And we're told often that that's not possible. We're not as simple creatures on and off switches as I think we've been taught. We also desire connection and monogamy. We just also are trying to understand how to express and experience desire. 0:27:52.8 MF: Yeah. No, I like that idea a lot. And I think there's... When you do get to a level of sexual intimacy that is really connected, where you are sharing who you are at a deep level with this person, and they're sharing with you. And that's just something that... When we talk about save yourself for marriage, we teach our kids hey it's like save yourself for marriage. Why do you do that? Because ideally, when you have sex with your wife, you are sharing your whole soul with that person. This is who you want to be with. This is who you want to raise a family with. This is who you want to spend your life with. And that all comes through, through this physical act. And that's why you say that. It's not 'cause it's like wrong, and then all of a sudden it's right. It's like, no, this is something so powerful, and good, and connecting that you wanna choose someone really special to do that with. So, then to put that in context, so you say, "Oh yeah, that girl is hot or whatever," doesn't mean I want to connect with this person physically, mentally, emotionally, spiritually, and spend my life with them like... 0:29:11.7 DB: No. 0:29:12.3 MF: When you have sex them... 0:29:13.3 DB: That's that black-and-white thinking. 0:29:15.4 MF: Right. Right. Yeah. So yeah. I think when you do experience that connection, it's just so rich and powerful that it's something that you want to, yeah, enjoy. 0:29:29.6 DB: I was just telling my wife this morning, I actually thanked her. I says, "I'm so thankful." And this is sparking from a thread that I was following and how people were arguing that they can't even look. They can't have any other desires except for unto their wife. And well, at its core, I believe that. The only desire I have is for my wife. I also... I turn to her as I was waking up and says, "I'm really thankful that you can tell me you find certain things attractive. That's beautiful to me. That tells me that you have desire, that you have an appreciation for these things, and in no way do I ever feel threatened." It's never a feeling of like, "Oh, you want me to look like that." That's my insecurity if I ever feel that way. 0:30:15.3 MF: Sure. 0:30:16.8 DB: And I would actually be concerned if she never said that. If she never pointed out, "Wow, she has a good butt. Oh, he has good abs." I would wonder... Is your blood cold? Do you not see these things? Do you not appreciate it? It's like looking at art, can't we look at other things, art or things that are beautiful, and are we afraid that our partner is gonna become more attracted to that thing? I'm not trying to be silly, but in all seriousness, we should have interests and desires. That doesn't mean we're gonna make a commitment or break a relationship because of it. I think it's very objectifying. I think it's ironically objectifying to say that men can't have more complex experiences and a commitment solely to their partner while also appreciating something that looks beautiful. 0:31:10.8 MF: Yeah, one thing that I have noticed myself doing too, is if I find my thoughts... So yeah. You can appreciate. Oh yeah, that's a good looking girl. She's pretty, but if I noticed I'm starting to run down that track of attraction or wanting to have sex with this person, like what I found more use for myself instead of trying to just shut that all down to like, "No, no, no, no, don't think that." I actually go the other way. I'm like, "Okay. Let's say that it goes that way. Is that really what I want? Do I want to destroy my family? 0:31:47.1 DB: Excellent. 0:31:47.7 MF: Do I want to be that example to my kids? Do I want to do all that?" And all of a sudden, it's like, "No, is that worth a few seconds of pleasure or... " 0:32:00.1 DB: Yeah. 0:32:01.4 MF: Definitely not. And that for me, that's been a lot more helpful than trying to be like, "Oh, this is bad. Don't think that way." 0:32:07.3 DB: Yeah, that's what we call acceptance commitment therapy. Good for you. And I think you hit it on the head right there is if you start to think you want to have sex with this thing or this person you think is beautiful, address that thought. [laughter] 0:32:22.4 MF: Right. 0:32:24.0 DB: I think that's a narrative that we've been taught, that's as soon as we find a woman or a person attractive, we now sexually crave that person. We need to break that narrative. That doesn't have to be that triggering thought. And everybody's different, of course, but I think we've been trained to think that way. And I think by addressing that concerning behavior or that concerning thought, and addressing that or like you did, you experiencing it, you said, "Do you really wanna do that?" That's what's important. Not shutting down all desire. 0:32:55.7 MF: Yeah, yeah, very good. Awesome. Well, thank you so much Daniel. Let's do a quick... A quick summary here. So, we talked about the idea of is masturbation a sin or not. And I think you really put it... 0:33:08.7 DB: Take it to the lord. 0:33:09.9 MF: Yeah, I think you really put it well, which is that's actually the wrong question. The question is, is the way I'm using my sexuality, whether that includes masturbation or whatever, is that bringing me closer to God? Is it bringing me closer to my wife or not? Right? And then, you're asking yourself is it in line with what has clearly been revealed? If that's in integrity to you to be someone that's following basically what God says, he's been pretty clear as far as being monogamous once you're married, but outside of that, there's not like a cut and dry this is how sex is supposed to be in marriage. So from there, it's more about like you said is this driving me closer to God? Is this driving me closer to God? And then, yeah, I think that's basically the summary. [laughter] 0:34:00.9 DB: Excellent. No, I think it's a good summary. It's a pleasure as always Mike. 0:34:05.6 MF: Likewise. Yeah, very good. 0:34:07.7 DB: If anybody has that... I realized this pretty quick. If anybody has any questions or want clarification, I know we did a lot in a very short amount of time. My email is always open and my contact, you'll include that information and feel free to reach out. 0:34:21.6 MF: Yeah, great. Yeah, maybe if you just wanna call out one more time the easiest way to find you? 0:34:26.7 DB: You know what? Yeah, I run the Sutton Family Therapy, but the best way is to go to my personal website where I have this all specifically for Latter Day Saints is my name, my full name, danielaburgess.com. And you'll find everything with the improving intimacy there and all the articles that you referenced, and my blogs and my podcast there and my contact info. So danielaburgess@... Excuse me, danielaburgess.com. 0:34:55.2 MF: Perfect. Hey, thanks so much, Daniel, appreciate your time today. 0:34:55.8 DB: Yeah. 0:34:56.5 MF: And alright, stay strong man. We will see you next episode. 0:35:00.9 DB: Thank you. [music]

What is Scrupulosity? Author Kari Ferguson Goes Behind The Scenes of "The OCD Mormon."

Kari Ferguson is the author of "The OCD Mormon" and "For and In Behalf Of" and creator of the blog, "Of Faith and Great Anxiety." She is a current member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints and has served as Primary and Relief Society President.  Kari runs the bookstore Oh Hello Again (ohhelloagain.com [http://ohhelloagain.com/]) in Seattle. She received her MA in Communication, Culture and Society from Goldsmiths College, University of London, and her BS from Brigham Young University. Kari lives in Seattle, WA with her husband, two children, two bunnies, and giant puppy.   Kari's book https://amzn.to/30N5iF6 [https://amzn.to/30N5iF6], Vice Article https://www.vice.com/en/article/k7qjzm/obsessive-compulsive-disorder-dirt-cleanliness-how-i-have-sex [https://www.vice.com/en/article/k7qjzm/obsessive-compulsive-disorder-dirt-cleanliness-how-i-have-sex], Website https://www.faithandanxiety.com/ [https://www.faithandanxiety.com/]   Full Transcript: 0:00:00.3 Narrator: Welcome to Improving Intimacy, a podcast to help single and married Latter-day Saints strengthen their family connections and marriages. Daniel A. Burgess is the host of Improving Intimacy. Daniel's a marriage and family therapist, father, husband, and author. Here's Daniel on this episode of Improving Intimacy.   [music]   0:00:28.6 Daniel A. Burgess: Welcome to another episode of Improving Intimacy. Today I'm excited to have a special guest with us, Kari Ferguson, who is the author of OCD Mormon. Oh, did I get the title right? The OCD Mormon. I'm curious, have you even been interested or wanting to change the title now with the whole name change? Or have you felt like, "No, I'm gonna accept this."? I'm curious about that title. What has been your thoughts?   0:00:57.7 Kari Ferguson: We published it and then... 'Cause that's what my blog was called before, and then they had the whole, "Don't call yourselves Mormons," and... I don't know. We were just like, "Oh, whatever," I guess. That was who I was known as, is that at that point I thought it was just... I don't know. [chuckle]   0:01:14.7 DB: In the...   0:01:15.6 KF: Yeah, it's good for my scrupulosity as well, in a weird way.   0:01:18.7 DB: That's what I was wondering.   0:01:19.6 KF: Yeah, because of... Yeah, I have to keep it that. I'm bucking against what the church tells me to do.   [chuckle]   0:01:28.1 DB: Yeah, this is your form of exposure therapy.   0:01:31.5 KF: Exactly.   0:01:32.2 DB: Okay, I gotta accept it.   0:01:34.0 KF: I can't change it, yeah. It's out there.   0:01:35.6 DB: Well, I'm excited. I've been thinking about this a lot, and you and I were talking offline just a minute ago about why didn't I find you until now? In fact, when did you publish the book? How long ago?   0:01:47.1 KF: It came out in September of 2017.   0:01:50.6 DB: Okay, so not too long ago.   0:01:52.6 KF: Yeah, it's about three, four years ago now, yeah.   0:01:55.4 DB: A friend of mine who... So for my audience who doesn't know, I actually deal with a large amount of anxiety, something I've actually been coming to terms with it, or rather discovering more over the most recent years here, and have been reaching out to some friends and family.   0:02:13.1 DB: I have made a good friend with someone and we were talking about this this morning about, "Let's write our story about this," and he's like, "Yeah, this is so triggering for us." And I don't know if I can, I've got myself into a good place. I'm curious, so let's start off there. We'll get into some of the meat here and I have some quotes from your book that I really, really valued. I wanna start off that way, what motivated you to write this book, especially as somebody who struggles with anxiety and putting your story out there.   0:02:47.5 KF: For sure.   0:02:50.2 DB: What made you decide to do that?   0:02:51.8 KF: Yeah, well, I've always been a writer, so that's how I emotionally process things, I guess. So just for me, that was the logical step I would say. But I went through, like I wrote in the book, I went through a really intense OCD breakdown, we'll say, without knowing what it was, and then I finally got help with the help of my husband and therapy and medication.   0:03:17.6 KF: And I made a friend at church who also has obsessive-compulsive disorder, and so we had been talking about it, and I just, I thought, "There are a lot of people in our religion who have anxiety, who have these problems, but we don't know what to call it. We don't know what it is, we don't even know that it's a mental illness really." And I thought, "I'm gonna start a blog just about that, about having this issue as a Latter-day Saint, and maybe I could help some people."   0:03:55.6 KF: Because for me, if I had known 10 years before, it would've been a lot easier if I had realized fully what it meant and how I could get help, it would have changed my whole married life and my mission and everything. So I thought, "I can use my skill that I have, my writing, in order to help other people."   0:04:14.2 KF: So I started the blog, I think it was in... I don't know, 2016, summer. And so I just did that and it got sort of popular, not huge or anything, not viral, but enough that I was like, "I could write a book about this." And so I started just in general, "Mental illness in Latter-day Saints."   0:04:39.1 KF: And then on Twitter, I had this friend who's an LDS author named Mette Harrison, and so she kinda was my mentor and helped me really form the book, and she's like, "No, you need to go into your story personally. Don't be general, don't talk about... That's too much, that's too broad, all mental illnesses in LDS faith." So she really was like, "No, focus in. This is what you're known for. Write about having OCD and your story."   0:05:09.7 KF: So I did, and yeah, Cedar Fort said, "Yeah, this is great." The person who read my submission had a sister I think with scrupulosity, and so she was like, "Yes, we need this in the church and in the discourse."   0:05:26.3 DB: Well, I wanna explore more, 'cause you made it sound so easy to get this written here, and I am confident even though I don't know your story in getting the book published, I'm assuming it wasn't that simple or easy. But let's define this for the audience here. We've said a couple of times this word "scrupulosity" and "OCD." Explain, what is OCD and what is scrupulosity? How are they the same and how are they different?   0:05:54.9 KF: Okay. OCD, obviously Obsessive-Compulsive Disorder, so by nature you have these thoughts that keep coming, and then it leads you to do things in order to make yourself feel better. So for instance, you have a thought like, "My hands are dirty," and so you say, "Okay, well, I have to wash my hands," but then your brain says, "Oh, well, you didn't wash them well enough." And so then you have to keep washing your hands or you touch something and then, "Oh, your hands are dirty. You have to wash your hands again."   0:06:26.0 KF: So it's this kind of call and response where your brain is saying, "Oh, something's wrong, something's wrong," and then you physically... There's even mental OCD as well where they do mental compulsions, so it doesn't have to be a physical compulsion. But anything that you do to try and relieve these thoughts that you're having, if it's enough that it's causing you disturbance to your life, to your day, to your life, then it becomes OCD, where it's a disorder and you need... You should get treatment or help.   0:07:00.3 DB: It interferes with your life.   0:07:01.0 KF: Yeah, if it interferes with your life, exactly. And then scrupulosity specifically is a type of OCD. And that's something I didn't really know at first, was that there were different types of OCD. 'Cause people just throw around OCD so flippantly. Like, "Oh, I like to have books organized, I'm so OCD." But it's not an adjective. It's a disorder and it's serious.   0:07:23.3 KF: See, I didn't realise there were so many different types until I went to therapy, and people were telling all their different stories, and I was like, "Oh my gosh, all these things are OCD that I've had." [chuckle] But scrupulosity is religious OCD basically. And so it has to do with maybe worthiness or things like, "Oh, I'm not good enough" or, "Oh, I'm not worthy to go in the temple" or, "Oh, I shouldn't have said that thing." Anything that relates to our religious upbringing and our thoughts there.   0:07:53.8 DB: But wait a second, you just described empathy, right? I said something wrong, I may have hurt somebody's feelings.   0:08:04.2 KF: Yeah.   0:08:04.6 DB: What's the difference between empathy and...   0:08:09.0 KF: And repentance.   0:08:09.5 DB: And reasonableness, and repentance. So what's the difference? Help the listener know.   0:08:15.2 KF: Yeah, that's something my therapist and I talked about, and he was not... He's not LDS. But he said, "It's so hard with scrupulosity and people who deal with that, because a lot of times for them, it's like the therapist versus God." And who is gonna win that? Obviously, God is gonna win that. Right?   0:08:31.9 DB: Yes.   0:08:32.1 KF: For a religious person, you're gonna say, "No, this is like the Spirit telling me I'm doing something wrong and I need to repent." So it can be really difficult to say, "Okay, where is this line between this is a mental illness and it's telling me I'm doing everything wrong, and I actually am doing something wrong and I need to repent and change." So it's really difficult.   0:08:57.8 KF: For me, my OCD really started with scrupulosity back in college. And yeah, I just thought it was I'm having a "come to Jesus" moment and I'm realizing all these horrible things I'm doing wrong. And so I really, I beat myself up and I... So many issues. I couldn't be alone really, 'cause I was worried and my brain would just keep going and I would say, "I have to fast on this random Thursday because I need help," and nothing was helping.   0:09:27.3 KF: I would take a nap and I remember one time I had sleep paralysis, which I never had before, where you can't, your body can't move. "Is it something? This is not normal." And so, I don't know, I think I realized that then, that something wasn't normal, but I didn't actually get help until 10 years later. I did go on medication then.   0:09:48.3 DB: Wow.   0:09:48.4 KF: But yeah, I didn't really understand what it was, or the other things that it could cause. So it is really difficult. I think if you're... If you know, Mormons, we tend to know... Or LDS, sorry. We tend to know what is right and wrong. Right? And if you're really pushing yourself past the normal right and wrong...   0:10:11.0 KF: If you're worried about every single thing, and it's so bad to the point where you feel like you can't be alone, or that's all you think about, or you're so worried that God hates you. Or whatever, these are kind of warning signs that, you probably have a problem.   0:10:27.3 DB: Big time.   0:10:27.7 KF: And you should get help.   0:10:30.0 DB: Yes.   0:10:30.0 KF: Because it should not feel like that. God does not want you to feel like you're a terrible person all the time. That's not what Heavenly Father wants for us. So if you are feeling like that...   0:10:40.0 DB: That's an excellent...   0:10:41.2 KF: You'll be fine, yeah.   0:10:42.7 DB: Yeah, that's an excellent point, and I think it's... You're right, this is one of the most difficult things, mental health issues, to identify within our faith, because it's one of the few mental health struggles that we actually praise. So for example, we reinforce scrupulosity a lot in the church and we idolize people who have it.   0:11:11.1 DB: And we don't even know that they have it, or they may not even recognize they have it. Usually it's in the context of, "I study the Scripture for two hours a day. I pray for 30 minutes twice a day."   [chuckle]   0:11:22.6 KF: It's not healthy, really.   0:11:24.1 DB: No, it's not healthy, but yet it's the focus. When we see people like that, we admire them, we often say, "Wow, I wish I had that." Let me clarify, these are non-scholars, non-BYU professors, non-religious teachers. It's one thing to have a... Sorry.   0:11:44.1 KF: Yeah, exactly, exactly. And after realizing this, I read through the Book of Mormon, and I'm like, "Oh man, Jacob, I'm worried about Jacob." I feel like he probably had... He even says that he has, "My great anxiety of faith and great anxiety in my soul." I'm like, you feel bad for him, because they probably we're dealing with these things. Even Enos, praying all day and all night, like... I don't know. [chuckle] Maybe...   0:12:07.8 DB: I've even thought... I love that you bring that up because I've even thought about Nephi's prayer or his poem. It's, "O wretched man that I am." And I'm like, holy cow, this...   0:12:21.3 KF: Right? It's been around the whole time, we just didn't have the words to describe it. Even my therapist said, I think Martin Luther, they think had OCD, who began basically the whole Protestant Reformation. [chuckle] Which makes sense, he was very worried about everything. And so, I don't know. It's good and bad.   0:12:41.4 DB: It is.   0:12:42.6 KF: Yeah.   0:12:44.6 DB: It's a fine line, because clearly, there's nothing wrong with people who wanna study the Scriptures for two or three hours a day, and that's not, I'm not exaggerating.   0:12:55.0 KF: Yeah.   0:12:57.0 DB: But like going back to your earlier definition, it's when it interferes with your life. One of the measurements I use is if you place those concepts of perfection above your loved ones, and above your relationship with God, and you base your relationship with God off of those measurements, you may have scrupulosity.   0:13:23.7 KF: Yes, yes. No, I totally, I totally agree. And that's the point it gets to, and like I said, for me, I wish it had gotten... I realized that it was scrupulosity, and so the OCD didn't branch out into other areas of my life. Because it did. 'Cause OCD, if you get used to it in one way, it will try and get you in another way eventually.   0:13:46.5 DB: Yes.   0:13:47.2 KF: Yeah, I don't know. It's a tricky thing.   0:13:50.2 DB: Personally, I don't know if I would define myself having elements of scrupulosity, but as someone who does battle with anxiety and ADHD, my personality type is very different from what those we tend to admire in the church, somebody who, going back to that example of routine Scripture study. Now, I used to force myself and judge my worthiness based off of my ability to perform like somebody else, let's use the word neurotypical person.   0:14:29.6 DB: When I came to grips that my form of study and prayer takes on a very different look than somebody who's neurotypical, it was a breath of fresh air. And to be okay with that, the way I study, the way I pray, I felt closer to God immediately when I put off this... It gets me upset now, when I get people who bear their testimony, who says, "If you study the Scriptures the first thing you do when you wake up in the morning, you will be closer... " I go, "Nope, that's number one way to upset me and draw me further away from God."   [chuckle]   0:15:07.6 KF: Yes, everyone, it's so, that's so true. We all worship in different ways, and that I think that's meant to be, but we, for some reason in the church we're taught, "This is the way you do it." And so, yeah, for me it was like with the scrupulosity it was like, I felt so much duty, like my relationship with the church was really just like, "I have to do these things because this is what I've committed to do. And this is how you get to heaven."   0:15:33.8 KF: And so it was very like, this is my duty that I have to do this, if that makes sense? It wasn't so much out of love. I have testimony, but it wasn't like I'm doing this because I love the Savior, necessarily. The first and foremost was like, "Okay, this is what I have to do because this is what God expects me to do. And this is what I've covenanted with Him to do. And my family, I have an eternal family, they're relying on me to stay true," and all of these things.   0:16:00.3 KF: It was like all this pressure that you have to keep doing it in a certain way. But it's really unhealthy, and you get to a point where you're just like, "I can't, I can't anymore," and you have to realise maybe you don't have to accept every single calling, or maybe you don't have to be the perfect ministering sister or brother. Because I'm an introvert and it's hard for me to do certain things, but other things I can do really well.   0:16:30.5 KF: Even listening to general conference, I don't get much out of it, but reading it, I can. Where my husband is basically the opposite 'cause he has ADHD. So yeah, everyone is different, and it's fine. That's, we're made this way, it's not a sin to have mental illnesses or developmental...   0:16:47.4 DB: Differences.   0:16:48.2 KF: Differences of any kind. Yeah.   0:16:51.1 DB: So I'm gonna read off of page seven in your book. What was... It touched me to just... I struggle to put words into what I experience on this. Again, I may have some degree of scrupulosity, as I looked more and more inward, I don't think I fit the classic definition definitely, but again, it may be more of my anxiety and ADHD, just the differences in approach, but I loved what you said here on page seven.   0:17:22.4 DB: It says, "I spent evenings alone wanting to burst into tears but not feeling like it would do any good. I questioned why God would let me end up here alone. I wondered why I felt guilty and why I worried about every single thing. I was at a loss for what to do with myself. Uncertainty ate away at my sanity, and I thought I was going to have a nervous breakdown at any second. Last year, I did, and it was a surprise because I have always coped."   0:18:01.3 DB: What I would have said well, with my anxiety, I think because ironically, my ADD allowed me to break free of rigidity, and I actually think I was blessed with ADHD, for that reason. I don't know if "blessed" is the right word, 'cause that's not fair to others, but it definitely allowed me to cope.   0:18:29.7 DB: I fortunately have a wife who is like, "Tell me, share with me," and I never felt like I could. It's like, "You really wanna know what's going on in here?" And as I shared, now she's like, Oh, this is what... " In fact, yesterday, Sunday, I was having a really bad day. And when we came home from church, we're going to church now, and I told her, I said, "I can't even be touched, I can't. This is, I'm feeling overwhelmed. I have to go isolate myself."   0:19:02.2 DB: And she goes, "Oh my goodness, I had no idea." This is how I've pretended for so long. Are you wanting me to share this with you? I have felt alone, even in the midst of the most beautiful support system, because I don't feel like people could relate to me. When I read that paragraph, it tells me you know exactly what that was like. Share with me. Well, I guess...   0:19:35.0 KF: Yeah, yeah, no...   0:19:37.8 DB: Let me formulate that question a little bit better here. You said earlier... Well, in general, you have so much insight right now about why you did things, and you wish you'd known this 10 years earlier.   0:19:53.7 KF: Yeah.   0:19:54.4 DB: But the truth of the matter, most people with scrupulosity will not receive that information.   0:20:00.3 KF: No.   0:20:00.6 DB: Do you feel... 'Cause as I look at this and I say, "If somebody told me 10, 15, 20 years ago, I would have said, 'What are you talking about?'"   0:20:09.4 KF: Right. Yeah, especially in college.   0:20:10.6 DB: Even with just anxiety.   0:20:12.0 KF: Yeah. Right.   0:20:12.9 DB: Do you feel like you would have listened to your... You, 10...   0:20:17.3 KF: No, no. Well, you know, it's interesting, when I was writing the book, I got out my old journals. I had journalled through college, basically. And so I was reading from this time period of when it went... When it went down, when it was really bad, like I wrote about there. And I was just reading like, "Oh my gosh."   0:20:38.1 KF: And then I read about how, I went back to BYU, I was doing an internship at the time in Seattle. And so I went back to BYU and went to the health center, so I was like, "I'm gonna... You know, I need to get help of some kind." My mum's a nurse, so she was like, "Just go to the health center and tell them." And I had written down in my journal, like, "I went to the health center and they told me I had obsessive compulsive disorder."   0:21:01.4 KF: And I was like, "What? I knew. They told me." So exactly, I was told, but it just like, it went over my head. They didn't really... They must not have explained or I wasn't ready to accept that that's what I had. I don't know, and that's how I got on medication, was that visit. But I literally, until I re-read it, that journal years later, I was like, "What? They told me. I didn't know." Literally, it didn't come to me. So that's your answer, they did tell me and I was like, "No, no, I'm not gonna listen."   0:21:37.0 DB: Yes...   0:21:37.4 KF: "I don't care." Yeah.   0:21:39.1 DB: So I guess, the next question is, this is what I... What I think is the most difficult aspect about this, is, one, being able to recognize that this is actually a problem.   0:21:49.4 KF: Right.   0:21:49.9 DB: We've reinforced this within our church culture to idolize admire and even encourage this type of behaviour, thinking it's good.   0:22:00.6 KF: Yeah.   0:22:01.7 DB: I get a lot of pushback when I identify this, especially around sexuality.   0:22:06.3 KF: Yes.   0:22:07.1 DB: Which is what I deal with the majority of the time, is, "Are you telling me not to listen to the prophets? Are you telling me to not be perfect?" How would you recommend, knowing what you know now, to talk and to... I realise we can't convince people, but...   0:22:27.0 KF: Right.   0:22:27.8 DB: What are your thoughts? How would you go about helping people recognize this?   0:22:32.1 KF: Yeah, you know, it is so hard. When I was writing the book and publishing it, I was really Society president at the time as well.   0:22:41.9 DB: It's alright.   0:22:42.7 KF: So it was like also I had this overwhelming calling. And so I was able to talk with a lot of sisters and realise like "Oh, they have mental health problems." And the ones who did and knew, they felt more comfortable talking to me because I was so open about my mental health issues. And so it was actually a benefit having that openness.   0:23:07.5 KF: So I don't know, it's, I think those of us who do have mental health issues need to be more open at church about it and more vocal about it. Because then those people who do have it, but maybe don't realise it, can start saying, "Oh, I recognize that in myself." Or, "Oh yeah, I've done that." And then you get that seed planted.   0:23:30.7 KF: And it does take years sometimes for people to be diagnosed with anxiety or OCD. Anxiety is more when people are like, "Oh yeah, I have anxiety." I don't know, everybody seems like they're willing to admit that. But yeah, I don't know, so for me, it's like...   0:23:47.0 DB: It's an acceptable mental health issue.   0:23:48.7 KF: It's an acceptable. Exactly. Where scrupulosity it's like, "No, that's good you're like that." So I think also church leadership, which they've done a lot better recently, really begins to say like, "Okay, this is an issue that we have," stating it and coming out and being really just, yeah, really transparent about it.   0:24:08.8 DB: And, "It's okay, and this is... We don't wanna be like this. We wanna get help. It's not good to be obsessed about being worthy or perfect." I think as the more the higher-ups start to talk about it more, it will become something that people are like, "Oh, okay." You know, and Elder Holland gave a great talk a couple of years ago about that.   0:24:32.4 DB: He's great.   0:24:32.7 KF: They've done Ensign articles about these things as well. So they are working on it, I feel like. We did a conference called Anxiety Disorders in Mormonism, shortly after the book was published, and that was great. I think we had church leadership there from some department, I don't know. So you know, kind of probably checking up on us, seeing like, "Are they really teaching good things?" But also I hope it helped them to realise that this is an issue.   0:25:00.4 DB: Oh, wow.   0:25:00.5 KF: And it was sold out this conference at the Joseph Smith Memorial Building. This is something in the church that we need to talk about more. So yeah, I don't know.   0:25:09.3 DB: My goodness, yes. I think that's what's interesting here is... And I apologize, I think we're on a slight delay here, so I don't mean to be talking over you. You've published this book now three years ago, or four years ago, and this is the first time I'm hearing it.   0:25:30.5 KF: Right.   0:25:30.5 DB: And I'm a mental health professional. And to your point, I am surprised. I am absolutely baffled why you haven't been on... And this is not a criticism to my colleagues, but I am surprised that you haven't been on every mental health podcast in the LDS community. Being that this is such an important topic and it is related to anxiety, depression.   0:25:57.4 DB: Even if you don't have scrupulosity specifically, this is prevalent in the church. And so you're right, this needs to get out. And so if I could do my part. I agree with you. There's kind of a paradox, because as you said, and I 100% agree. The upper leadership need to be talking about it more. But that's also kind of fueling the problem. We're waiting for our leaders of authority to say, "This is what you need to do."   0:26:28.2 KF: It's true. And you know, there is this divide, I think, with a lot of church members. I did a book signing at a church book store in Washington after the book came out. I was sitting there and I have the books, and I heard someone walking by like, "Ugh, OCD Mormon." Like, "Oh, that doesn't matter. OCD doesn't matter" Yeah, I was like, "I'm right here." [chuckle]   0:26:53.1 KF: But it is one of the, specifically OCD is one that people don't really realise is a real mental health disorder. If that sounds... That sounds terrible, but it's true. Because we use this so flippantly, the "OCD" term. So I don't know. Yeah, it's really hard I think anxiety is an easier one, people will say, "Okay, yeah, you have anxiety."   0:27:14.4 KF: But all the mental illnesses is really are so co-morbid with each other where you can have one and the other. They kind of like to pair up and be friends, which is not fun. So yeah, I have OCD, but I also do have anxiety, generally. I've been having suicidal thoughts before because of all of these things. So they really, they all go hand in hand. And they can get so deep if you don't address them, and cause other problems and cause even like physical problems.   0:27:47.5 KF: One time, I thought I was having a heart attack after my breakdown in college. And so I had to go and do EKG testing. So I thought I was having heart attack.   0:27:57.8 DB: I've been there.   0:27:58.5 KF: Yeah, it's like if you're having these things, there's something wrong and let's get help, because it's available, and it's great. When I went to the BYU Health Center and they just gave me the medication. And there wasn't, as I remember, not really a discussion about other options. I think a lot of us do want just like, "Okay, give me the drugs, and I'll be fine." We don't wanna put in the work and put in the time.   0:28:25.8 KF: Because we're so busy too, in the church. We're so busy. We have all these callings, and we have our kids, and we have this, and the school, and all the jobs. And it's like, "When do I have time to go to a therapist? When am I gonna do that?" But it's so...   0:28:39.3 DB: We need an immediate solution.   0:28:41.4 KF: Yeah, we want the immediate solution. And the medication is great. It helps kind of take it down a notch, at least for me, and I don't know for you if you're on anything. But being in therapy just helps you understand why and what it really is, and how you can behaviourally take care of it and get better, and when it comes up in other areas, you recognize it more, than just taking a medication.   0:29:09.0 KF: It really, yeah, therapy is so important. And it's so hard to get, for some people. It's hard to find the right therapist. It's hard to get an appointment with a therapist. These are things that are also obstacles, that are huge, yeah.   0:29:22.3 DB: And one... And you addressed this in the book very well. I have so many questions. This is such an exciting topic for me, so let me organize my thoughts here. Because you brought up this and you talk about this in the book really well too. It's one thing to find a therapist and to find a therapist who really knows how to address this.   0:29:41.9 KF: Yes.   0:29:42.2 DB: But before... Before I ask that question, I wanna talk about the nuance around this. And one of the things that really prevents, I believe, prevents us from, at least in the church community, that... Recognizing we need help. Is, what we perceive is the spiritual... And I'm curious, 'cause I don't remember you talking about this in the book, or at least bringing it up, is what we perceive as the spiritual reward we get when we are following our scrupulosity.   0:30:15.8 DB: I often hear people will say, "Are you telling me this is a mental illness? When I read for two hours a day, I pray repetitiously. I feel closer to the Lord." That.   0:30:31.0 KF: Right. "You're telling me that's wrong?" Yeah.   0:30:34.2 DB: How do we... Is that something you experienced? And if you did, how did you address it?   0:30:40.9 KF: Yeah, it is something that is so hard. And I've been doing research for a different project about generational differences in worship. And so I was reading articles, and there's actually, they're doing experiments, and they actually use LDS people, which I thought was great for these experiments, about... Neuroscientists and neurologists are doing this, about how our brain reacts to religion. I read this article, it's called Your Brain on God. And this doctor...   0:31:13.3 DB: Great article out of University of Utah.   0:31:16.6 KF: Yeah, yeah, and just basically how our brain over, probably over the thousands of years since we came up with religion, our brains have become... Yeah, religion helps. It turns on different parts of our brain, like the responses for pleasure. Like cause and effect. We're like, "Oh yeah." So we pray and we feel better about it. And it's literally hard-wired into our brain to feel that way now with religious experiences. Especially for LDS people, apparently.   0:31:47.4 KF: So yeah, if you talk about God or something in the experiment, and you probably know as well as I do, but yeah, they were happier. And so it really is part of our brain. But it's just like a drug where you can get addicted to that in a way. And that sounds awful, right? Probably people will be like, "Oh, you can't say you're addicted to religion, it's not bad, it's good."   0:32:13.3 KF: But God also says moderation in all things, and for the average person, average LDS individual, I don't think He wants us praying two hours a day or reading two hours of Scriptures a day. There's so many... He wants us to be with our family and enjoying the Earth and being good examples out of our own home. So it's hard. It's really... [chuckle] I don't know if I answered any question. But it's hard, yeah.   0:32:39.4 DB: It is hard. You did. And actually, that research, I'm glad you brought it up because it's one that I've written about and we talked a lot about, you bring it up, it's like a drug. It actually shows something quite the opposite, and this is what I mean. We've been doing a lot of brain scans around people who are behaviourally addicted to pornography or these other things, forms of media.   0:33:08.5 DB: And they found that this brain response of studying the Scriptures and following the leaders or reading quotes from the prophets, lit up the brain in a similar way as those who look at porn. And so what we've been identifying, what some of the best researchers have been identifying, is there's something else going on that's beyond this chemical addiction.   0:33:32.4 DB: Which is not like a drug, actually. It's what we are creating in our belief system, what we're expecting to receive from it. And so, what we're identifying is we need to redefine how we experience those relationships. So I think you actually did answer the question, is I don't need to read three hours a day to have this feeling of closeness with the Lord. I can create this in a way that's pleasing to Him, in a way that's more appropriate for me.   0:34:09.3 KF: Right.   0:34:09.8 DB: Does that make sense?   0:34:10.8 KF: Yes, more is not always better, you know?   0:34:13.7 DB: Correct.   0:34:15.8 KF: Yeah, it's interesting, and I read this book, I'm trying to see if I have it here on myself. About George Albert Smith, with the prophet and how he, basically his... Youu know, he had mental illness, mental health problems, but they didn't really diagnose it 'cause he was back in the...   0:34:37.1 DB: I love this example.   0:34:38.6 KF: Yeah, and reading it, I was like, "Oh, he has anxiety obviously, and probably obsessive-compulsive disorder." And they tried to do ridiculous things to the poor man, like, "You have to live outside in the back cottage, "or all these just crazy things, "You have to take time off from being an apostle," and all of these things.   0:34:58.0 KF: And I just, it helped me feel better about my own problems 'cause I'm like, "Okay, even the prophet had this." And I think it allowed him to be more empathetic when he became prophet, he was prophet right after World War II. And so I think having those experiences and having the mental health problems that he did, I think it made him the prophet he needed to be for that time period, even though it was awful and he didn't have the correct treatment because they didn't have it then really.   0:35:29.5 KF: But to know like, "Okay, it can be a blessing in some ways," like you said. It could be awful too. And so it is awful, but it can help us learn empathy and learn different skills that the Lord can then use to help the Kingdom. I don't know.   0:35:49.0 DB: I believe it was George Albert Smith, 'cause as I was telling you offline, I've done such extensive research, sometimes stories cross, so I hope I'm remembering correctly, and I find it was a missed opportunity when we're studying him as a prophet, that they didn't include that in the material. And how he would actually isolate himself in California for months at a time, to escape it all and to recover. What a benefit that would be to here as a church community. I think... And I have no idea. I am...   [overlapping conversation]   0:36:22.1 KF: Needed to do that for his mental health. Yeah.   0:36:25.1 DB: Yes. And I don't wanna pretend I know what the leadership is thinking when they develop this material, but maybe my only guess is maybe they don't want us to have a negative light on George Albert Smith. But I don't know. I thought that would be... So when I teach that lesson that I sometimes get asked to teach, I make sure I include that. It's like, oh my goodness, isn't he more relatable now? Isn't it make you feel good?   0:36:53.8 KF: Yeah. I even think about Christ when He had to go and He would go up into the mountains and pray by Himself, I'm like, "Yeah, I relate to that needing to get away from all of the people and all the things going on around you, and just have the solitude." I'm like, "Yeah, I can relate to that." Or just being asleep in the boat and, "Go take care of it yourselves." [chuckle] Solve the problem on your own.   0:37:17.4 DB: Absolutely.   0:37:18.5 KF: I think it does, it humanizes everyone, these leaders. And just, you know, the thing is, it's sad, but like you said, there's such a negative perception of mental illness, not just in the church, but everywhere. And so end of therapy and things like that, and people think, "Well, I'm not being good enough, or I'm not praying enough if I'm depressed." If you're unhappy, you're just not being a good enough Latter-day Saints.   0:37:52.5 KF: And you hear that a lot, like, "You just have to pray it away, or fast more or pull up your bootstraps." And it's...   0:37:58.0 DB: Correct.   0:38:00.9 KF: That's not the right way to deal with this. I think it's hard to change that demographic of the church and of society, that thinks that like mental illness is a personal weaknesses. Because it's not. It's not a sin, it's not a weakness. It's a real thing, just like if you had cancer or if you had endometriosis or whatever. It's a real illness.   0:38:29.0 DB: But to your earlier point, I'm gonna come back to that other question, is when we do seek help... So let's step out of even the LDS community right now, let's talk about the medical community. So I'm putting the pieces together myself over the years and I had a nervous breakdown, oh, I don't remember the year now, it might have been around 2006 or 7, and I thought I was...   0:38:57.2 DB: So your story about heart attack hit home for me because I remember checking myself in, and thought I was dying. At that time, I was also 265 pounds, and so I thought I was prime heart attack whatever, and I checked myself in and they did all the tests and they're like, "You're fine."   0:39:19.6 DB: I said, "I am not fine." And they looked at me like I was crazy, like, "Get out of here." It felt like it was more just they were protecting themselves from liability to keep me there, and I was of course feeling a lot of shame like, "I don't understand. I am... " You can't even describe. People who have had a severe panic attack understand. And that's what it ended up being.   0:39:50.1 DB: But there was no... No one sat me down and said, "Look, what we believe is happening here and how we think we can help this... " I realise it was an emergency urgent care facility, but that also goes to the point. Our society, we're now in 2020, and even with me having a nervous breakdown last year in 2020, the help and the insight...   0:40:15.8 DB: And I'm a mental health therapist and I was struggling to identify what was happening, and it's always harder when it's happening to you, but to be able to identify it and to get the help, it's just like, "Here, take this Klonopin or whatever. Let's just calm you down and get you home."   0:40:33.6 DB: And then, as you talked about in the book, and this is where my next question is, is how? It's one thing to identify that you may have a problem and then another to find a therapist who really knows how to deal with this. And as a therapist, I struggle to find people who are adequately trained to refer people to. What was your process? And I know you brought it up a little bit in your book, but how did you find the right therapist for you?   0:41:06.8 KF: Yeah, luck, really. [chuckle] No, but...   0:41:10.3 DB: It's true.   0:41:11.2 KF: It's true, it's true. I was having this... At the time, it was contamination OCD, I got really bad. And my husband was like, "This is not normal. You need help." And I was like, "No, no, I'm fine, I can do... I am a strong person, I don't need help." And he was like, "No, you need help."   0:41:32.9 KF: So I was really blessed with a husband who was really supportive and had a family with mental illness, and so he could recognize this and not take "no" for an answer really. He was like, "No, you need help." So I was like... I was too involved or too emotionally upset to even call doctors.   0:41:55.6 KF: Which, a lot of people are at that point, when you're going through a breakdown, you can't. You're not like, "Okay, let me go research all the different doctors that I could go to." No, you're having a breakdown. So I was lucky, he started calling the doctors. It was to the point where he was even calling the in-care, yeah, people like, "Can she come in and stay there?" and they're like, "No, we're full," or, "Oh, no, we don't have any appointments for two months." And he's like, "This is not... We need something now."   0:42:23.1 KF: And so he called someone, a doctor in Seattle. We were living on an island in the Puget Sound at the time, near Seattle, but he called the doctor in Seattle and he's like, "My wife's having a really hard time with this," and he's like, "Well, we have a group session tonight that she could come to. And I have a cancellation the next day too for an appointment."   0:42:48.4 KF: So it was just totally random that he called this doctor that day at that time and the cancellation. So I was very lucky, I was very lucky. I went to the group and that's when I was like, "Oh yeah, this is what I have." And then, yeah, I went to him for the appointment and he told me, "Go to your GP, general doctor and get on medication for now, because it will help you in the meantime to calm down. And then we'll work on the therapy once you can... You're well enough that you can actually do the exposure therapy and do the things that you need to do."   0:43:32.3 KF: So I went to my other doctor, got on medication, then I went home for Christmas to my parent's house with our family. And I was suicidal, having suicidal thoughts because of everything.   0:43:46.1 DB: Yeah.   0:43:46.3 KF: So I was like, "I can't go back," to this island where we lived 'cause I was like, "It's dirty, and contamination." And so we flew home and drove to Portland and started looking at houses down there to move, because we were building a house on Vashon Island, but we were like, "We need something better in the meantime that's closer to therapy," because I didn't wanna take a ferry and then drive a half hour to go to the therapist every week. I was like, "That is a two-hour commute, it's too much."   0:44:18.3 KF: So we were lucky enough that we could do that, and we bought a house down near Portland. And so I came back to my therapist and I'm like, "We're moving," and he's like, "What? What are you doing?" I'm like, "No, we need to move, various reasons." And so he said, "Well, I have a friend down there, another therapist in Portland, and I will transfer you over there." And so I was like, "Oh, great." He's like, "He's me, but in Portland."   0:44:43.2 KF: So I was like, "Okay, that's fine, that's great." So I moved down there and I met with him, and he was great. He was like... We hit it off even better than I did with the one in Seattle. And I don't know, we just, I met with him every week at first and was able to make progress on the things that we're really bad. We started with the contamination, which is really the one that was awful for me.   0:45:05.6 KF: And then once that was kind of under control, then he looked and said, "Okay, now, what else? What else is the OCD touching?" And then we were able to go to the scrupulosity or the hitting around OCD, or whatever, there's all these different sub-types. But it was just a luck, and so I feel really lucky that I had that experience. It's been really hard to...   0:45:28.3 KF: Now, I didn't... I stopped going to see him once I was better, and I was like, "Oh, I'm doing so well with this whole behavioral therapy, I know what to do now, this is great." I'm like, "I'm gonna go off my medication, I'm not... I don't need to see my therapist very much, I know what I'm doing now." And I had a total breakdown while I was writing the book, total...   0:45:57.3 DB: Wow.   0:45:58.0 KF: Right back where I was basically. And I'm like, "What it's going on? I know what I'm supposed to do." Like you, you're a therapist, you're like, "I know the tools but I can't use them myself. What is going on?" And my friend that had to come and she checked me...   0:46:13.5 DB: Let me pause you for a second. Let me pause for a second, 'cause I think this is important to emphasize to those people who don't experience this, when they're trying to be loving and supportive, that there... One of the things I discovered, really quick, I understand all the concepts, techniques and tools with grounding with mindfulness, but when your brain gets into a place of ruminating, no amount of grounding, mindfulness, breathing techniques... Now, help.   0:46:47.6 DB: And I wanna say that with a caveat, I'm not saying that, "It's not gonna be helpful. Don't do it." You definitely do it. I'm not saying don't do it. But when you're loving network, your family, your support system is getting frustrating, saying, "Aren't you doing this?" Or, "You need to do this." I think it's important for them to remember, because it may help you and get you into a good place, it does help us, but it's not the solution, and it's probably not as effective as it may be for you. Is that your experience?   0:47:27.2 KF: Yeah, for me it was like, yeah, I knew what I should be doing, but I was like, "No." I think it was pride too. I don't wanna have to go back to the therapist and tell them I failed. I know what I should be doing, but I just I can't do it. My brain, it was just like, "No, no."   0:47:47.7 DB: So you couldn't even get there, your brain wouldn't even let you do it?   0:47:51.8 KF: Yeah. I had a friend, the friend who had OCD and that I mentioned earlier, and she was like, "I'm taking you to the hospital." Because I would tell her things about going on a walk, "I could just walk out into traffic right now, it wouldn't matter." She's like, "I'm taking it in to the hospital 'cause that is not normal thoughts to have."   0:48:12.8 KF: And so I went and they gave me some drugs. And then the next day I went to my doctor and got back on medication. No, it's hard, and I think it's... Even now, I'm not going to the therapist regularly, and I'm like, "Oh, I don't need to go to the therapist," but I should, I should. Not every week, but I should check in once a month or once every three months. The accountability is important.   0:48:44.1 KF: And that's what keeps me on track, I'm on medication again, still, and that's keeping me fine, but if something happened, something major, I would probably have another... I would probably go back to the same spot. It's really hard. It's a constant, it's a life-long...   0:49:03.2 DB: Understood.   0:49:04.1 KF: Yeah, and medication doesn't always work as well as it used to, and so you have to have these tools in your toolbox and recognize like, "Okay, I can't do this on my own."   0:49:17.2 DB: I wanna be respectful of your time. I have many thoughts and questions. Are you okay if we go beyond the hour?   0:49:22.9 KF: Yeah. It's fine.   0:49:24.6 DB: And what you don't really address in the book is how this affected your intimate relationship with your husband. And not just sexually, but connection in all of it. Are you comfortable in explaining that?   0:49:43.8 KF: For sure. I mean, I laugh because I remember these instances, and to me they were like, "Oh my gosh," like life and death. But now I'm like, "What was I doing?" But when I had the contamination OCD, he would take the laundry downstairs or something, let's say, and I always say, "You have to go wash your hands." He was like, "Why." 'Cause you touched a dirty laundry, and he was like, "I'm not gonna do that," and I'm like "then you're not gonna sleep in the bed tonight."   0:50:12.3 KF: And he's like, "What?" "No, you have to sleep on the couch unless you wash your hands." And he's like, "What are you talking about?" Things like that or even just touching, he would go by and pat me on the bum or something, and I'd be like, "What are you doing? Don't touch me, don't touch me there!" He was like "What? What's the problem?"   0:50:34.7 KF: These little things that are natural husband and wife things, I'm like, "Whoa!" I'm thinking, "This is wrong, this is... You're dirty, this is awful." And yeah, even sex, I was like, "Whoa, this is dirty. We can't." It was very like, we have to have it on a certain sheet, or have sex in a certain time, or what... I take off my garments, my underwear, I have to pull them and put them in a spot, put them on like a Kleenex 'cause they're dirty. And it really ruins the the moment.   0:51:09.3 KF: He used to be like, "Oh my gosh, what are you doing?" Or if you touch anything, you have to go wash your hands. Yeah, it really does affect your intimacy and your relationship with your spouse, because in your mind, you're like, "This is totally logical. And this is what I have to do to maintain my sanity." And to them, they're like, "What is going on? This is not okay."   0:51:34.7 KF: So yeah, it's really hard on spouses. And children too. I was like, "I'm not gonna color with my kids 'cause they touched the markers and maybe they didn't wash their hands after they went to the bathroom." So I'm not gonna color with them. Or I'm not gonna sit on the floor with them because the floor is dirty or... You know, just all of these things would factor into it. It changed my whole relationship with my whole family. Yeah.   0:52:00.1 DB: So with... Because my group is focused on intimacy specifically, what do you do now?   0:52:09.5 KF: Yeah.   0:52:11.2 DB: Do you feel like sex is now pleasurable for you, or? I guess I made an assumption. It sounds like sex was not a pleasurable experience before?   0:52:17.6 KF: No. No, it was kind of like a...   0:52:18.7 DB: Do you feel like it is now?   0:52:20.6 KF: You know, it's not totally better. I have tried to be better about it, but there's still... It becomes a habit when you do these things often enough. And so even without thinking about it, I'm like, "Okay, we're gonna move over to your side of the bed if we're gonna have sex, because I don't wanna get my side dirty." Like, still. [chuckle]   0:52:43.6 KF: And I try...   0:52:44.0 DB: I'm glad you can laugh about it.   0:52:45.6 KF: I try not to be obvious about it, but I'll scoot over or whatever. Or I'll be like... I'll look like where he puts the underwear when... [chuckle] Like, "Okay, is it in a good spot? Okay, we're good." Because we've talked about it. We were interviewed for Vice on this topic, OCD and Intimacy. So you can look that up.   0:53:10.7 DB: We'll include the link.   0:53:12.4 KF: It was really good, actually. He was in the conversation obviously. It was like couples therapy, just talking it out. And him saying, "Okay, this bothers me when you do this." And I was like, "Really?" So I think couples need to be able to open up to each other about that, about sex, and what are problems or issues that each person has, because it's really healthy actually.   0:53:37.8 KF: And I think we don't talk about it at church 'cause we're like, "That is a private thing. I'm Mormon and I can't do this and we can't talk about it. Or we can't use sex toys." Or whatever people think. Because we don't talk about it, we have all these assumptions of what we can and can't do, I think. Or should and shouldn't do. But really, is that even like a thing? I don't know.   0:54:02.1 KF: Like using sex toys, I was like, "I cannot. No, we don't do this." He's like, "No, it's fine." So these are things that we've had to work on and still work on, but talking about it and being open about it with some random stranger actually really helped us to come to terms and to be like, "Okay, you know, we need to be better at this. Or I need to be better at it and not let the OCD take over that." And be okay with having pleasure.   0:54:28.9 DB: Again?   0:54:30.6 KF: Yeah. With... You know, it's okay...   0:54:33.3 DB: Yes.   0:54:33.7 KF: If you feel good about this. Which for some reason I never did. Well, you know.   0:54:39.1 DB: You bring it up again.   0:54:40.6 KF: Yeah.   0:54:41.3 DB: Yeah, it's interesting because it's, again, the taboo and the somehow... Someone predefined we're not supposed to talk about certain things. Like my wife was just telling me she was at book club and they brought up Emily Nagoski, one of Emily Nagoski's books, which is great, about female pleasure. And one of the people says, "Let's do that for our book club." And she was excited, she says, "It's changed my relationship for the better."   0:55:09.3 DB: And the response... Again, I'm not criticizing anybody, I wasn't there, but the immediate, the automatic response was like, "No, gross, we don't talk about that thing." And it's like, oh, we're feeding the problem, we're feeding the problem. And we're not allowing ourselves to identify, "Well, I know I can have pleasure, but I'm not allowed to talk about it."   0:55:32.8 KF: Yeah.   0:55:33.1 DB: And if we don't talk about it, how do we learn about it? I mean, it's...   0:55:38.1 KF: How do we learn... How do we even know, yeah, what it is. What, yeah. No, exactly.   0:55:42.8 DB: Even like with sex toys, it's like, "Yes, absolutely." So has that been a helpful thing for you? Has incorporating tools, I like to call them sex tools. [chuckle] "Toys" makes it sound... Which, there's nothing with saying "toys".   0:56:00.1 KF: Yeah, no.   0:56:00.1 DB: But for therapeutic mind, it's like it's a tool, it's to help you. [chuckle]   0:56:02.5 KF: No, and it has. And just... My husband wasn't always active at church, and so I was not his first sexual partner, we'll say. And I was very worried about that at first. This is like, "I don't know anything about this, and I could be very bad and he would know." 'Cause I'm not the only person he's been with.   0:56:25.6 KF: So then I was also like, "Oh well, this is just because you weren't always active at church, so that's why it's okay to do... You think it's okay to do these things?" But no, it's fine. And yeah, the tools have been very helpful and... But it has taken me a while to be like okay with it, or to be okay with doing it myself...   0:56:47.5 DB: Yes.   0:56:49.0 KF: When he's... Things like that, having pleasure. Like, is it...   0:56:52.9 DB: Has that been helpful for you, allowing you to be in your own space and to...   0:56:58.0 KF: Yeah.   0:56:58.0 DB: Does that help manage your anxiety so that you don't feel like you're having to perform for anybody, just yourself?   0:57:04.1 KF: Yeah, yeah. You know, and I... Yeah, I always used to be like, "Okay, well," when he's done, then it's like, we're done. But now I'm like, "No, now it's my turn." And so we'll use the tool. And we'll use the tool, and it's...   0:57:16.6 DB: Toy is fine. [chuckle]   0:57:18.3 KF: You know, it really has helped to be like, "You know, this is... It's not just for him that this needs... This is for pleasure. I should also enjoy this." And it can be really stress-reducing as well for me, and not just a stressful occasion like, "Okay, I have to be good for him," and then he gets his pleasure, and then we're done. It's not just a one-way thing. We're not the tool, the women. We also deserve to have pleasure.   0:57:50.4 DB: Yes. Yes.   0:57:51.8 KF: That's something that took so long for me to realise. And also to even allow myself to get to that point of orgasm. My body was always just like, "No, no, no, no, no, no. I can't lose control," 'cause of my mental illness and my health. "I have to always be in control. I can't not know what's gonna happen." And so you had just to being able to let that go.   0:58:15.5 DB: The way you just phrased that there...   0:58:17.3 KF: Yeah.   0:58:17.9 DB: The way you just phrased that, "I can't let myself lose control." I have heard that from many, many women in counseling. That they feel like when they're on the verge of orgasm, they're losing control. I clearly can't identify as a woman in what you're experiencing. But that was a very triggering word or phrase for you.   0:58:41.5 DB: As I'm listening, I'm thinking, "Oh my goodness." And I wanna be careful, I don't wanna do a broad stroke of scrupulosity across everyone who may have experienced it that way. But that does sound like possibly a symptom of, "I'm losing control."   0:59:00.0 KF: Yeah.   0:59:00.1 DB: "What's gonna happen here?" What do you think?   0:59:02.5 KF: I think it is. I think... No, I think you're right. And I think, I don't know. Yeah, I was just like, "I can't... " It's very real even every time really. I'm like, "Okay." You have to make a decision like, "It's okay. It's okay to not be in control."   0:59:18.2 DB: Experience it.   0:59:18.5 KF: Experience it, yeah. And then you get past that, and you're like, "Oh, okay. This is what they're talking about." [chuckle] But if you don't get past that point, you never get past that point, and you don't realise what's on the other side of it. And so, yes, it's a huge thing, and it can be so good for women.   0:59:39.8 KF: I was reading a book about hormones for women. It's called the Hormone Cure, and it talks about that, too. That women need to have this time where they're just massaged there. It's really helpful actually for our mental health. I was like, "Oh, okay." And I was telling my husband, he's like, "I'll do that. That's great. Like I will help you with that whenever you want, we'll have our massage time."   1:00:09.9 KF: But just realizing it's not bad. I think so much in church we're taught like, "This is bad." Because just growing up, it's like, "It's bad, bad, bad, until you're married, and then it's great and fine. But we're not gonna talk about it, or what you do, or what it's supposed to feel like. At all."   1:00:21.7 DB: Exactly.   1:00:23.6 KF: It's not helping.   1:00:24.0 DB: A very good point.   1:00:24.9 KF: It's not helping to be like that. To have it be such a taboo, and then suddenly it's fine. Our brains can't really process that. It takes...   1:00:34.2 DB: That's... One of the hardest things for me to communicate with people who I'd only, I wouldn't diagnose as having scrupulosity. It's just a general, cultural belief is, "Once you get married, everything's okay. " No, it's not. The exception is not the rule. I'm not gonna throw a percentage out there, I have no idea. But I have yet to see that be the case where, "Yes, marriage is now, you get to... "   1:01:04.4 KF: Do it.   1:01:05.4 DB: "You understand your body, and you're experiencing the full benefits of it."   1:01:09.4 KF: No. No, not at all. Yeah, I'm like, "I don't know. I don't know what's down there." My husband's like, "What? What are you doing?" [chuckle]   1:01:18.4 DB: And you're not alone. We now have family discussions.   1:01:24.1 KF: Prudish.   1:01:24.7 DB: Yeah.   1:01:25.0 KF: Like, "I didn't know." Yeah.   1:01:28.6 DB: It's such a blessing, we have family discussion. Now I have three girls, and they're all married. And one of the most... Believe it or not, it's one of the most... What's the word I'm looking for? Not humble, but I'm proud. It feels so good when we're even at the dinner table, just us family, and we're talking about, in a very appropriate way but very open, about marital sex, and what it looks like, and how we can improve.   1:01:56.2 DB: We're not crossing boundaries or anything. Well, people might be listening who say, "You've already crossed a boundary." No, the fact that we can openly discuss, that is a good thing. That, "Oh, you know what, have you considered this? This may help." All of our bodies are different, and we go through phases.   1:02:12.7 DB: You talked about having an hysterectomy in your book. My wife has had a hysterectomy, that changes the body dramatically. What does sex look like after a hysterectomy? No one talks about that. And now, we do.   1:02:27.0 KF: We should, yeah. Because it's such an important part of our lives. And not in a gross way, but we think of it like, "Ooh." I know especially probably women who've grown up LDS, who are just like, "Ooh, you don't talk about that. That's not okay." Like you wife's book club like, "Ooh, no, we're not gonna do that." But...   1:02:48.7 DB: "I'll do it in private in my closet where no one sees me."   1:02:51.3 KF: Yeah, "I won't tell anyone."   1:02:52.4 DB: Maybe.   1:02:52.6 KF: Yeah, and I had a... My former sister-in-law, who's since divorced, but she was very open with these things. And so, after we got married, she's like, "Okay, what's gong on?" They let us use their hotel room right after we got married, before we went on our honeymoon. [chuckle]   1:03:09.4 KF: They're very...   1:03:10.3 DB: Cool.   1:03:10.8 KF: Very open. She's very open. So she's like, "Yeah, use the tools, this helps so much." And I was like, "What, we can? We're allowed to do that?" And she's like, "Yes." I'm like, "Okay." So just having people be open about it, really changed my view like, "Okay, other people are doing this, it's not just in the dark or sneaking around. You can't do this anymore."   1:03:32.4 DB: Absolutely. So I wanna be respectful of your time, and I have so many thoughts and questions. And maybe someday we'll have you back. I'm excited to hear the reception on this podcast. But the final question maybe I have for today is, this is a difficult experience, like we were talking at the beginning. How... First of all, how do recognize that this is an issue? And then, how can family best support us?   1:04:03.9 DB: What would you recommend that people can do? What is the best way to... I realise there's a broad experience here. One, being able to identify you have a problem. But let's take it from a place of... Well, you're welcome to go with it wherever you want, but I'm thinking specifically, how does a spouse help you now? How do they best support you?   1:04:28.8 KF: Yeah, that is, it's really difficult with OCD. First of all, they need to research it themselves and understand what's going on. If you're going to therapy, have them come with you to a session and talk to the therapist about, "Okay, what should I do in these situations?"   1:04:49.1 KF: Because we look to our spouses a lot of times for reassurance, which is a compulsion too. "Are my pants dirty? Can you look? Can you tell me if they're dirty or not?" And if they're like, "No, you're fine." "Okay I'm fine." For five minutes or something. And then you ask again, "Are you sure?" And as they provide that reassurance they're just really making the OCD worse. Even though we're like, "No, it feels better." It's really, it's not good.   1:05:16.2 DB: They're enabling it.   1:05:17.1 KF: It's enabling it, yeah. And they have to understand that that is... That is a bad thing to do. You think you're supporting your spouse, you're helping, you're helping them by saying, "No, you're okay, you're fine." But really that is, that is not what they should be doing, it seems counter-intuitive. I think if the spouse knows that also and doesn't say, "I'm not allowed to tell you." But, "What would your therapist say about that? What do you think... "   1:05:41.0 KF: We call him Dr. Bob, my therapist. "What would Dr. Bob say? Would he want me to tell you that?" I'm like, "Oh okay." "It's not that I don't love you, it's just this is for your own good." You have to stand up sometimes to the person who has OCD if you're the spouse. Which can be really difficult. But as long as they understand that that's what you're doing. [chuckle] You're not just being a jerk. That's important too.   1:06:08.2 DB: Do you have some sort of plan? Or did you... You both discuss possible solutions or approaches. You come up with it beforehand, so that doesn't feel so abrupt or whatever in the moment?   1:06:20.5 KF: Yeah.   1:06:20.8 DB: Okay.   1:06:21.3 KF: "Okay, I'm not gonna get you reassurance anymore." I'm like, "Okay. This is... It's your deal, you'll have to do this." And so yeah, just being really supportive. Supporting going to therapy. It can be hard. Especially if you have little kids. Who's gonna watch the kids? My husband was really supportive.   1:06:40.5 KF: Luckily he worked from home, so we were lucky. But he would sometimes... I was like, "Mum, come over and babysit." Or something when I had to go to therapy, because he knew it was important. Not demeaning your spouse for getting help, which I see sometimes. Husband's like

Brett and Shendi Share Life Lessons | The Impact of Pornography on Marriage.

Full Transcript:   0:00:00.7 Narrator: Welcome to Improving Intimacy, a podcast to help single and married Latter Day Saints strengthen their family connections and marriages. Daniel A. Burgess is the host of Improving Intimacy. Daniel's a marriage and family therapist, father, husband and author. Here's Daniel on this episode of Improving Intimacy. [music] 0:00:27.0 Daniel A. Burgess: Welcome to another episode of Improving Intimacy. And today we're gonna be continuing the discussion about how to navigate and discuss pornography within the family, between your spouse and your children. On today's episode we have Brett and Shendi, and I look forward to exploring their adventure with this topic. And so, let's turn it over to you guys. Introduce yourself, let us know about some details of your family. What's your status in the church and what your goal is. 0:01:00.9 Brett: I'm Brett Pingel, me and Shendi have been married, twelve years? 0:01:06.5 Shendi: Yeah. 0:01:07.0 Brett: Twelve years now. Just hit 12 years in April. We have four kids, ages from almost 11 to just turned a year. 0:01:18.9 Shendi: Both mostly from Utah, and we're active in church. 0:01:22.6 DB: Good. How old are your children? 0:01:27.8 Brett: Ten, nine, seven, one. 0:01:31.7 DB: Ooh, got them tight together and then you've got the... How many boys, how many girls? 0:01:39.1 Brett: Two and two. 0:01:39.8 DB: Two and two. Two older, two younger? 0:01:42.9 Brett: Boy... Girl, boy, boy, girl. 0:01:46.6 DB: Oh, got it. Alright, great. So they're getting ready to get into their teenage years, are you excited about that? 0:01:52.3 Shendi: Don't remind me. [laughter] 0:01:57.2 Brett: Not sure I'm ready for a teenager. 0:02:00.5 DB: Yeah, it's, I don't think we could prepare for that. Perfectly, at least. I put out on our Facebook group, Improving Intimacy, a request to find couples who are willing to talk about their journey in discussing pornography and and a few other related topics. You reached out and said that you've had this discussion between each other and you're learning how to navigate that with your children. 0:02:28.0 DB: You've been married for 12 years, and... Tell us a little about that journey. What was it like for you guys? Was it a difficult topic? Did it come naturally? What was your experience? 0:02:41.3 Brett: I think for us it came out pretty early, 'cause I've had my own issues and I guess you could say addiction to pornography that I've dealt with for many years since I was a teenager. I don't know or remember at what point it came out. I'm pretty sure it came out even in the dating process before we ever got married. I think Shendi was aware of it. 0:03:07.6 Shendi: I don't think I realized how much he was into it, not that he was viewing it every day. 0:03:15.7 DB: You're talking about during the dating phase, Shendi? 0:03:18.7 Shendi: Yeah, yeah. When we were dating, I know that he said that he wasn't viewing every day, but I knew that had some addiction to looking at it. And then we just never really discussed it while dating, just that we knew that it was there and that it wasn't... Other than that, it wasn't really discussed until I really, I think I really realized until after we were married. I think within our first year was when is when I'd noticed that he was looking at things. 0:03:49.0 DB: So you're aware of it during the dating. What kept... Shendi, what kept you from exploring it more with him? Was it not a concern to you, or did you feel like it was resolved? What kept you from pursuing that concern or potential concern there? 0:04:07.0 Shendi: There's a lot of addiction in my family. And so, for us, I think it was just kinda I know it's there, but I don't think my family ever really deals with their addiction, on my side. And so, for when I was, what? 17 to 20 years old, we were just dating on and off, I just followed my family's steps of not really ever dealing with addictions or talking about them, just that you know they're there, and that's about it. 0:04:38.8 Shendi: And so, he told me, and I was like, "Okay." And just I left it, and I didn't feel like it was gonna affect me. Until after we got married, then I realized it affected me, in a different way than my family's history of addiction ever affected me. 0:04:54.2 DB: So Brett, when you were dating, do you feel like... If you could put your addiction, if your usage of pornography on a scale of one to 10, one being really just occasional, barely existing, to 10, it's consuming you daily for hours, where would you place yourself? 0:05:14.7 Brett: When we were dating? 0:05:15.9 DB: Yeah, when you were dating. 0:05:17.9 Brett: Maybe a five. 0:05:19.0 DB: A five, okay. And equate that... 0:05:23.1 Brett: It's never been one... I personally have a hard... It's an addiction, but I have a hard time calling it addiction, 'cause it's never consuming. 0:05:32.3 DB: Okay. And it... 0:05:32.9 Brett: I've never felt like, "I have to look, I have to look, I have to look." You know? It's never... It's something that's always there and every now and then I flip through it. 0:05:47.2 DB: So it's impressive that you weren't caught during dating youth, it sounds like you felt impressed or you needed to tell your soon-to-be wife, that this was a problem or... How did that come about? 0:06:01.1 Shendi: Well, we've known each other since we were 15. 0:06:04.2 Brett: Yeah, so we've known each other for a long time, and... 0:06:08.9 Shendi: We were really good friends. 0:06:10.1 Brett: We've always been able to talk. 0:06:12.9 Brett: I think that's the biggest thing for us is we've always had really good communication, and I've always felt like even my darkest secrets, I've been able to tell her. 0:06:24.4 DB: Wow. 0:06:25.0 Brett: And so it was never anything like, "Well, I'm gonna tell you something and you're not gonna like it." Or anything like that. It was always, I guess conversation with us was always really fluid. 0:06:35.2 DB: That's excellent. That's, wow, that's an ability I really encourage a lot of couples to have before they get married. So it was present. If you don't mind, if you're comfortable with sharing, when you say it's a five, how consuming was that? Was that a few minutes a day, once a week? How would you, on average, say, qualify? 0:07:00.1 Brett: Probably once a week. 0:07:00.9 DB: Once a week, okay. And so when you shared it with Shendi and she reacted the way she did, like, "Okay." What were you thinking? Was it like, "Okay, I did my part."? Or what was your experience on your end? 0:07:17.3 Brett: I'm trying to remember back that far. [chuckle] 0:07:19.2 DB: Yeah, I guess it is a while ago. Really, forgive me. I do like to explore this a little bit because I wanna give people a sense of where they were and what it was like, and I think you may not be surprised, but a lot of people may be resonating with this a lot, like, "Oh my goodness, I was able to be very open, share this information, and it seemed to be the last thing we talked about until we got married." So I kind of wanna provide that to the audience. 0:07:45.0 Brett: Yeah. 0:07:45.4 DB: So if you can, I realize it's 12, 13 years ago, but what do you recall? In fact... 0:07:52.1 Brett: I think for me, there was a level of relief that she wasn't appalled or judgmental towards me. She was really understanding, "Okay, that's... No, I don't necessarily like it, but it is what it is, and I still love you." And for me, it was really relieving that, I guess that it wasn't a deal breaker. 0:08:20.0 DB: That's wonderful. So you get married, and about how long into your marriage, Shendi, did it become an issue? Or did you start to notice signs that, "Okay, this is a problem."? A few months, a year, how long into the marriage? 0:08:36.8 Shendi: I'm just gonna say six months to a year, 'cause we had accidentally gotten pregnant six months into the marriage and my first pregnancy was rather rough, and so I think our sex life had dwindled a little bit. 0:08:55.3 DB: Okay. 0:08:55.7 Shendi: And then we didn't have smartphones or... We had a laptop. We didn't have the smartphones or anything. I think I was going across the laptop one day, trying to remember some website I was looking at, and I'd come across it then. And then I just kind of, I felt really sick to my stomach, and I wasn't sure how to approach it, and then as I looked more, I saw a little bit more and I decided, "All right, I knew this, but I need to approach him about this because he needs to know how I feel about what he's doing." 0:09:29.5 DB: Wow. 0:09:30.0 Shendi: And I think that's the first time I'd realized for me that, "Okay, just because they have an addiction, or just because they have, I guess a problem, it was in our marriage, I don't need to stay silent, I need to at least talk to him 'cause he needs to know how I feel." 0:09:44.8 DB: So what were you feeling? You said disgust or sick, what were you thinking? 0:09:51.4 Shendi: No, I didn't feel disgust towards him. At first, I think I felt really sick to my stomach. I felt kind of like that he was looking at these things instead of coming to me and being honest and saying, "Hey, I need some intimacy." Or, "I'm feeling a little neglected." Or whatever his feelings were at the time. 0:10:17.4 Shendi: I kind of felt, I guess emotionally cheated on mostly, like he was just kinda going somewhere else for something that I could easily or readily give him, but he would choose rather to go somewhere else, and so I felt in a way betrayed as well. 0:10:32.0 DB: Right, right. So how long did it take you to approach him on that? Was it immediate? Or did you wait some time, you pray over it? What was your process in bringing this up with Brett? 0:10:44.1 Shendi: I don't think I prayed about it at all. I think it was more... I think the first time I kind of approached him and I was just like, "Hey," I think about after a week, I was like, "I saw this. What's your deal?" I don't think the first time... I think the first time in our marriage I really was not as patient as he makes me out to be. I think I kind of approached it... 0:11:05.3 DB: Understandable. 0:11:06.2 Shendi: In a hot-headed manner, and I said, "You know, this is not okay, and we need to fix this." He apologized and we had a few words, and then after that, we didn't really discuss it again until I found it again, and then I was like, "Look, we really gonna fix this." 0:11:26.5 Shendi: I think it was within another month that I found more and I just said, "We need to figure this out, 'cause I feel like you're not trusting me with your problem, or you're not wanting to talk to me about when you need certain things or when you want certain things." I think within that first, what? Two months, we really had a lot of discussions about it. 0:11:49.3 Brett: Yeah. 0:11:50.0 DB: Well, that's... I'm loving what I'm hearing, because it sounds like... And I realize we're removed, what? 11 years from that incident. But the way you're even describing it, it seems like you did in fact have patience around it, It doesn't sound like you were attacking him or yelling at him. Or were you? Was there any kind of anger expressed in that fashion? 0:12:14.4 Shendi: I think I cried a lot. 0:12:16.2 DB: Okay. 0:12:16.4 Shendi: I don't think... Did I ever yell at you? 0:12:18.5 Brett: I don't think there was ever really any yelling. It never felt like she was mad. 0:12:24.8 Shendi: More hurt. 0:12:25.8 Brett: She was more hurt, betrayed, things like that, than she was anything else. 0:12:31.6 DB: So from... Brett, from your perspective, did you feel like she was inviting with the conversation? Or did you... 'Cause sometimes spouses will say, "Talk to me, I'm here to talk," but there's still this emotional experience like, "You better not say anything bad about this or that you're doing it again." And so on one hand it's, "Talk to me about it, but there better not be anything new," kind of experience. What was your end of that experience? 0:13:02.6 Brett: No, I never felt... I don't know, I guess... Everything for me, it was always really positive. Like I said, she never really came at me attacking, she never got mad. I could just tell how I hurt she was. And I guess there were probably points where I didn't feel like she really understood what I was going through. 0:13:25.0 Brett: We have had our issues when it comes to intimacy, where I think we've been on different pages in different wavelengths, but at the same time, I never felt I was being attacked either for the issues I was having. 0:13:36.9 DB: That's excellent. Brett, at this point, when you were caught or she found out, how would you compare that usage to prior to your marriage? Would you say it was more than what you were experiencing before the marriage, less or about the same? 0:13:55.6 Brett: I think for a while there, it got worse, prior to the point where it was two or three times a week. But still never where it consumed me, but it did get worse for a period of time. 0:14:08.1 DB: Your wife pointed out that there's intimacy issues. Is that what you would also point that towards? Or what do you think was driving that behavior? 0:14:17.6 Brett: I think the lack of intimacy. 0:14:20.5 DB: So how did you guys start to navigate? Now it's all out on the table, we know this. Shendi is saying, "Hey, talk to me, I keep finding this stuff." How did it proceed from there, where did you guys go with it? 0:14:36.8 Shendi: I think we decided that we were gonna set up boundaries for him, to help him, first off. I think we decided to... He couldn't... I don't know, this might sound rude towards him, but he couldn't look at the laptop after, or get on the computer after certain time of a day. We were able to block certain sites or we put a password and him would... 0:15:03.9 Shendi: So it might sound like I was parenting him, but we both discussed, this is probably the best way for him, was for me to be more in control over the things that he was able to or do not get onto with our computer. And then after we both felt like it calmed down a little bit, we decided we were just gonna discuss more... 0:15:22.2 Brett: We just have more conversations. 0:15:25.0 Shendi: More conversation about it, "Hey, I'm struggling really bad today," and I was like, "Okay, how can we help you?" Or, "Okay, let's remove the laptop for the day," or things like that. You think, yeah? 0:15:39.8 Brett: Yeah. 0:15:40.2 DB: Was that helpful to you, Brett? 0:15:43.3 Brett: I think so. I'd be lying if I didn't say there were times where it felt like I was being controlled or being parented, but at the same time, it was the best thing for me at the time to help us go through a difficult time. 0:16:00.5 DB: I'm glad you... 0:16:01.1 Shendi: And it wasn't... 0:16:02.1 DB: Go ahead. 0:16:03.7 Shendi: Alright, and it wasn't like I... I don't think, in my mind, it wasn't like I was saying, "Well, you can't get on this, this and this time." We would sit down and we would say, "Okay, what's a good time for you not to be on the laptop?" For him to express it. 'Cause like he said, I didn't want to feel like I was controlling him or parenting him. I was his wife, his spouse, I wasn't his mother or babysitter, I guess. 0:16:33.2 DB: I'm glad that you both are pointing this out, that's one of the biggest concerns I have when I work with couples in navigating porn issues, is one becomes the manager in the relationship, and it sounds like you guys took measures to prevent that while also holding some sort of accountability with each other. Is that fair to say? 0:16:54.4 Brett: Yeah. 0:16:54.6 Shendi: Yeah. 0:16:56.1 DB: So how long did this go on, this managing, did it work? And if it did work, how long? And if it didn't, what did you guys end up doing? 0:17:05.1 Shendi: I think it was up until after we had our second son, or our first son, our second child. 0:17:10.4 Brett: Yeah, our second child. 0:17:12.0 Shendi: So probably it was two, two and a half years. 0:17:14.9 Brett: Yeah. 0:17:15.5 DB: Two and a half. So tell me, what that maybe average daily experience was, were you taking the computer away from Brett, or? How did that work logistically? 0:17:26.9 Shendi: He would usually bring it to me. Or I would just take it and I would just put it away. Or we even had a password on it that he didn't know. I think when we did get smart phones, he did ask me and brought me his phone and said, "Please put a password on it." And so I think we just kinda both, I don't think one of us really... After a while, I don't think one of us really took control. I think he realized that I hurt my feelings, and so we both worked on it together. Would you agree, yeah? 0:18:00.6 Brett: Yeah. 0:18:01.5 DB: And so after two and a half years of doing this, what happened then? Did things change, improve, or? 0:18:11.4 Brett: I think that it changed just 'cause I was learning how to... I guess my frequency was diminishing and I was learning how to deal with it better. I was getting to the point where I didn't need as much, I guess babysitting is the best way to put it. [chuckle] 0:18:30.8 DB: Sure, sure. 0:18:31.5 Shendi: Well, I think our communication even got more better in those two years, because it was something that we were talking about more, and he was open and willing to let me express myself when I did catch other things or... He was willing to just sit there and he was willing to listen, and I was willing to listen to him, and I think we worked more on our communication. Then over time, I think we worked on our intimacy too afterwards, after we communicated more, if that makes sense? 0:19:06.0 DB: Yeah, absolutely, it does. Would you be willing to recall or share how one of those interchanges worked with you? You're bringing it up, how did those discussions work? I'm really liking what I'm hearing in that you listen to each other. That's a very difficult thing for people to do. Especially if you're finding pornography or another incident. How did you learn how to handle that, I guess maturely and as adults? 0:19:36.7 Shendi: I don't know... I don't know if there was ever anything that we learned to do. It's just kind of been, that's always been our relationship. I've always been comfortable talking to Shendi, and she's always been a very understanding person. I mean, I don't know, I guess is not much to say in how we learned, the communication has always just been there, for me. 0:20:06.0 Shendi: I think... I think for me the communication has always been there, but I think for me, it was kind of a lack of... What's the right word? Understanding, or lack of empathy. I don't know. I would find myself sometimes... 0:20:24.4 DB: A lack of empathy from you or from him? 0:20:27.4 Shendi: For him, for his struggles. I think I was not very sensitive towards any of his struggles. Even his daily struggles with work or school, and I found that I was more less empathetic, I guess that's the right way of putting it. And so when I would find those problems, I knew that I should talk about it with him, I knew that I should share my feelings, but I think I was growing increasingly more frustrated, just 'cause I didn't see results. So basically I wanted them. 0:21:02.3 Shendi: And so what I would do is I would... I would... Every time I would say my prayers or my personal prayers, I would just, "Help me to love my husband." And it wasn't that I didn't love him, it was that I needed to learn how to love him in the way that I guess God brought him, not just as my husband, but as my friend and a son of God. And so I would honestly, I would say a prayer, "Help me to love my husband." Then it was in, "Love him in a different way." 0:21:35.2 DB: Tell me more about that different way? What was the different way that you were discovering? 0:21:41.2 Shendi: Well, it was, I loved him and I appreciated him, but I don't think I quite wholeheartedly... I don't know, it's hard to explain. I knew who he was, and I knew that he was my best friend and that I loved him and I wanted the best for him, but I think I would just kind of get irritated. 0:22:07.0 Shendi: I was like, "Okay, well, you're struggling, let's move on. Let's move on." 'Cause it's kinda how I was, I was raised to, "You're struggling, alright you've said it, now move on." And I was like, well, you know, I don't think God ever looked at us and it's like, "Really? Okay, another prayer about your struggle, let's move on." And I'm like, that's not very... 0:22:29.3 Shendi: In the long term, I didn't feel like that was the most sympathetic answer. All of us wanna be heard and all of us wanna be understood, even if it's the same exact thing over and over again. So I felt like I needed to love him in a eternal perspective. Is that the right way how to say it? I don't know. 0:22:48.2 DB: I think you're getting me a little emotional here. The way you're describing this is, Shendi, is the message that I hope a lot of people hear. This is key. It is hard to describe that empathy. It's one thing to say, "I'm your friend, I'm here to talk about it," it's a completely different thing to be able to say, "I want to understand." 0:23:12.0 DB: And the analogy you gave was Heavenly Father doesn't say, "Okay, get on with... Move on." Right" He takes time to understand. I don't know if that necessarily means you need to go into all the nitty gritty and the details of what you're viewing, but... Brett, did you experience that from Shendi on your end? Did you feel like, "Oh my goodness, I'm able to talk about this even more." I know you have an open communication with her, but did you feel that empathy start to be increased in the relationship? 0:23:46.2 Brett: I did, and it's something that we've talked about. I think she's still working on it, even still today. Because there was a point in our relationship where it was like... And not just with my issue with pornography, but like she said, every day where I'd come home and I'd be really upset from work, and she just kind of be like, "Okay, well, you're home now, move on, deal with it." 0:24:08.6 Shendi: Not that I would say that to your face. [chuckle] 0:24:11.9 Brett: That was kinda the vibe that I would get. 0:24:15.9 DB: Yeah, yeah. 0:24:19.7 Brett: And through our discussions, I've definitely seen a change recently. And over the years, really, not just recently, but there has been a change and I have seen her try to be more understanding and know where I'm coming from, and just wanting to see me be better, in every sense of the word. 0:24:44.6 DB: Was there a point in your relationship, and it sounds like maybe not, but I don't wanna assume it, that Shendi, maybe you said, "Okay, again, this is happening and I can't have this anymore. I'm done."? Was that an experience that you had or considered? 0:25:05.5 Shendi: I think there was a point about, was it four years ago? Where he had lost his job. And so he became quite set back in his old ways, I guess, where he was just struggling, and it was the same conversation or the same maybe argument that we had. And then I would find the porn again, and that would just add on to it. 0:25:31.5 Shendi: And I think we'd hit quite a low point, and I just said, "If this doesn't, you know, if this doesn't get fixed or if we can't discuss this like we used to, then I'm gonna have to be done." And I think it wasn't just necessarily the porn, but I think it was everything else, and then that one just kinda added to it. 0:25:51.4 DB: Yeah. It sounds like it was a really stressful time in your life, and you both were kind of burnt out. 0:26:00.8 Shendi: Yeah. 0:26:00.9 DB: How long ago was that? How many years ago? 0:26:04.5 Brett: That was back in 2013. 0:26:09.0 DB: Okay. About five... What is that now? [chuckle] We're in 2019. 0:26:12.2 Brett: Six years ago. 0:26:13.2 DB: Yeah. Wow. 0:26:15.6 Brett: We had moved to Nevada. 0:26:16.8 Shendi: We just have had a new baby. 0:26:18.6 Brett: Just have had a new baby. 0:26:20.1 DB: Oh my goodness. 0:26:20.4 Brett: You know, I'd been in a job for three months and lost it. 0:26:25.9 DB: This is what we often interview for intake. When we have new clients come in, we check for all these major life events. This is usually why people are coming in, is you had like the big three or four; a move, life-changing event, a baby, loss of job. This was huge, a lot of stress, which... 0:26:48.2 Shendi: Yeah. 0:26:48.2 Brett: Yeah, all at the same time. [chuckle] 0:26:51.5 DB: No wonder. What was nice here though is, I like... Shendi, what you said was, "We need to be able to talk about this like we did before." A lot of couples don't have that experience to fall back on, and so when you hit this major point in your life, in your marriage, if you didn't have those positive experiences, do you... We all hope to think that we would be just as encouraging, but do you feel like if you didn't have those positive experiences to fall back on, you would have been as willing? 0:27:22.5 Shendi: I'm not sure. I mean, we were able to talk once before. And I had always knew that I needed somebody who I really knew before I could marry just because of my personality and things that had happened in my past, I really needed a good friend. And I needed him to be a friend first, before I married him. 0:27:47.8 Shendi: I think if we hadn't have been, I don't think we would have maybe had a strong of a relationship. I think I would have maybe cut off our relationship and not talk to him like I do now. 0:28:02.0 DB: You mean during the dating phase, is that what you mean? 0:28:06.4 Shendi: Yeah. Yeah. 0:28:07.2 DB: Oh, yeah. 0:28:08.5 Shendi: I think because we are friends for a really long time and we learn how to communicate, and then we learn how to communicate even more in our marriage, that helped us later on when we had that big problem. Because I feel like if you don't know how to communicate to yourself and you don't know how to express your feelings, but then your spouse doesn't reciprocate listening or expressing their feelings as well, I think it just leads to shutting off and feeling like maybe the other person doesn't understand or doesn't want to understand. 0:28:45.9 Shendi: And so I think where I already knew that he wanted to understand my feelings and cared about my feelings, that I think it was easier for us to fall back on to what we used to do, where we used to talk a lot. 0:28:58.1 DB: Yeah, that's wonderful. My goodness. You mentioned also that having these discussions helped improve your intimacy. Is that... Did I hear you guys correctly? 0:29:09.4 Shendi: Yeah. 0:29:10.2 DB: How did that help? Being able to... I mean, I don't wanna make the assumption again, just being able to talk openly helps that experience. But here you are dealing with pornography, and what a lot of couples experience is because pornography is mixed into it, it actually makes the intimacy more difficult. How did these discussions allow for it to improve? 0:29:31.9 Brett: I guess having the understanding that I wasn't necessarily choosing the pornography over her. I knew I was able to talk really things with her and really talk about where it was all coming from, and trying to get to a point where she knew that it wasn't me necessarily choosing it over her. I think that's where it improved our intimacy, our ability to talk and things like that. 0:30:04.7 DB: What about you, Shendi? What was it like for you? How did that help improve your side of the intimacy? 0:30:15.5 Shendi: I think that... 'Cause I always kinda had the issues of low self-esteem, like I said before, things that happened to me as a child, and so I think I had a lot of intimacy issues and a hard time for me to realize that maybe he actually did love me or want me. And so when he would communicate to me, "I want you. I need you," or send little text back and forth, I think it helped me realize, "Okay, yeah, he does want me." 0:30:49.8 Shendi: And he was able to communicate that with me more, like he would talk to me more about it, instead of just coming up and hugging on me and kissing me and then he's like, "Okay, let's do this." It was more of a, "Okay. He wants me for more than just having sex," or things like that. So for him to communicate with me to be like, "I do love you, and I do want you," more than just to satisfy the need of wanting to look at pornography, I guess. It was he actually did want me, and it wasn't, pornography wasn't a substitute. 0:31:24.3 DB: You felt that from him? 0:31:27.0 Shendi: Yeah. I felt like, for a long I felt like pornography was a substitute for me. And so in my mind it was he was cheating on me, in my mind, because he was substituting the pornography for me, and then when he would communicate, "I want you and I need you," or "Hey, look, I'm struggling with... I'm really tempted to look at pornography." 0:31:49.2 Shendi: And he would tell me that and it'd be like, "Oh okay, he's not... It's not that he... That we're not having sex right now, it's that he, he's actually struggling with something and he's willing to talk to me about that struggle. And it's not that he's trying to replace me." 'Cause if he was replacing me, I feel like that he would not want to discuss it with me. 0:32:08.4 DB: Yes, yes, yes. 0:32:09.8 Shendi: If it makes sense? 0:32:10.7 DB: Right. Wow, that's a huge paradigm shift to be able to start... To believe his words, "He's flirting with me, he's really wanting me, he's craving me," and believing his words and embracing that. That's a beautiful step forward. Now, these experiences, how have they helped shape your teaching your kids? They're about to enter into their teenage years, got a couple of years on the oldest one there. How has that shaped your conversations with the children? 0:32:43.8 Brett: I think they've allowed us to be a lot more open with our children. I feel, especially in LDS culture, I feel like sex has become very taboo. It's not something that you should ever discuss. 0:33:00.9 Shendi: And talk to your parents. [chuckle] 0:33:02.9 Brett: And so I think these experiences between me and Shendi have really allowed us to be open with our children. 0:33:08.6 DB: And not so shameful towards them. 0:33:11.8 Brett: Yeah. I feel like they can come and tell us, "Hey, I saw a naked person," and they wouldn't feel like we would come down on 'em, shame 'em, things like that. And so I feel like there's just a lot of openness. 0:33:29.4 DB: So how do you handle that with a 10-year-old? What does that open conversation look like? What kind of words do you use or how do you gauge your language with your children on those topics? "I saw a naked person." What do you say next? 0:33:42.9 Shendi: Well, we had an incident, what was it, two years ago, where a friend of our daughter had shown her something on YouTube. I checked the iPads and stuff after they're done playing with them, just so, keep an eye out, 'cause I know that they're happening at such a young age. And I come across some stuff, and I... 0:34:06.7 Shendi: So I just, I went up to her and I mean, just feel be as honest, I don't wanna skirt around it because it's there, and I need to be as honest with her as I possibly can. And so I said, "Is there something you wanna tell me?" And she said, "No," and I said, "Alright." I said, "Well," I said, "I found this." 0:34:26.9 Shendi: And what 10-year-old is honestly wants to say, "Well, I found stuff." And so I said, "I found some things on the iPad that were inappropriate and you probably should not have seen," and I said, "What happened?" I was trying not to shame her or make her feel guilty, or make her feel like she can't come to me. And she just said, "Well, my friend wanted to look up... " What was it? "How babies were made," or whatever. 0:34:58.5 DB: Oh yeah, yeah. 0:35:00.6 Shendi: And I said, "Well, we already have that discussion." And she goes, "Yeah, but she wanted to show me some other things." I said, "Okay." I said, "Well, when she showed you those things, how did that make you feel?" And she goes, "Well, it kinda made me feel, yuck, or sick in my stomach." And I said, "Okay." 0:35:14.6 Shendi: I said, "Well, why didn't you come talk to me?" And she goes, "Well, I was a little scared. And then after she left, I didn't think about it." And I said, "Okay." I said, "Well, sometimes you just forget things, but that's okay." She said, "So... " So we talked about how she felt, and then we talked about in the future, if something like this happens, what can she do or who she'd talk to, who are her safe people, I guess. 0:35:43.9 Shendi: And we said, "Some of these things might make you feel a certain way," and I said, "and that's okay and it's normal." I said, "The only... " What I told her is, "The only problem is, is when you're looking at it all the time." I said, "Or when you feel like you need to look at it." I said, "Then that's kind of a problem. Because I don't want you to feel like... " 0:36:00.8 DB: Or keep it a secret. 0:36:01.4 Shendi: Yeah, and I said, "I don't want you to feel like that you can't come talk to me, but you wanna feel like you wanna talk to your dad and talk to me." And just because it was our daughter, I didn't wanna exclude my husband, and I want her to feel like she could talk to both of us, not just mum. 0:36:21.1 DB: Oh wow. 0:36:21.7 Shendi: And so we did it with both of us sitting there. We sat her down, the both of us and we said, "We know that how this works, we know how babies are made, and if you feel uncomfortable about of anything, come talk to Mum and Dad. And if you feel uncomfortable talking to dad, you can talk to me or... " I wanted her to know that we are both there, not just one of us, just because she was female like her mum. 0:36:46.0 DB: Yeah, you've identified it as safe, and I like that word. Even when I have kids come in to the office, that's one of the very first discussions that I have with their parents there, is... Parents bringing them in because of exposure to pornography or whatnot. We identify immediately safe people. We don't just have this discussion around sex or naked people with any person. Even though you may view me as a therapist, this is not sacred or shameful... Excuse me, secret, not... It is sacred. 0:37:17.5 DB: It's not secret. We don't hold those secrets from the safe people, and we identify as... I really like that you did that, but also acknowledge that there may be still discomfort around that, "If you're not comfortable talking to Dad about it, still come talk to me." Have you seen her... Has there been episodes since then where she was able to follow through with those discussions? 0:37:39.8 Shendi: No, I don't think she's ever... I don't think so. 0:37:44.1 Brett: Yeah, I agree. We haven't had to address that issue again yet. 0:37:48.8 DB: Oh good. [chuckle] That's good. 0:37:51.2 Shendi: Yes. [chuckle] 0:37:54.5 DB: So in general, how does your conversations around... It sounds like you did talk to her about how babies are made. Is this an ongoing discussion? Do you freely talk about sexuality in the home? How do you continue to set that atmosphere within your home? 0:38:11.1 Brett: I think, just 'cause especially the day and age we're in, we try to have some kind of discussion, especially with our daughter, with her starting to hit the puberty age, I think we try to sit down to every... 0:38:30.1 Shendi: We sit down with the kids, I think general every couple of months, and we do have a discussion on, "If somebody touches you here, if somebody touches you there." What do we call it? 0:38:41.7 Brett: Stop touch. 0:38:42.6 Shendi: Stop touch or don't touch. 0:38:44.4 DB: Oh. Love that. 0:38:48.5 Shendi: What's the other phrase they usually use that we didn't? "Because sometimes stop touch kinda feels good, so it's not a good touch or bad touch, it's stop touch or don't touch." And so we try every couple of months, we try to have a family home evening based on, "Okay, if you see this," or "Can you see that?" And we try not to go into... 0:39:10.7 Brett: Too much detail, but enough for they to understand. Yeah. 0:39:16.7 DB: How do you feel the other kids are picking up? Is this just for the older kids, or you do this even with the seven year old and the one year old? I guess the one year old really isn't picking up too much. 0:39:25.3 Brett: Our seven year old just kinda giggles at it. It's kinda the same with our nine year old. I don't think they're at to the point where they really understand yet. 0:39:33.6 Shendi: Well, our nine year old has some... We're currently in that process of trying to get us tested for autism and ADHD and stuff. 0:39:41.0 DB: Oh wow. Yeah. 0:39:41.9 Shendi: So when we had our baby a year ago, we were waiting for the question for the boys to ask. And they never really did until maybe about six months ago, our seven year old was just like, "Well, how are babies made?" I said, "Alright." I said, "Well... " We just basically gave him the basic talk. I didn't say, "Well, Mummy and Daddy love each other and when they get together... " And it's like, "Well, you have the penis and the vagina, and you have to... " 0:40:11.3 Shendi: Tried to explain it to him as best we can, "You gotta put them together. And God gave in certain ways, and that's how they make a baby." And he was just like, "Oh, okay," and he didn't mention it again. But then when I tried to explain to my nine year old, he just... 0:40:26.3 Brett: He busted up laughing. 0:40:27.7 Shendi: Yeah, he stopped for a second and he just busted up. He goes, "That's silly," and then he was just done. 0:40:35.3 DB: Interesting. That's a typical reaction from a kid whether there's autism or not. So it's impressive that you're still engaging with that conversation and setting that tone for the family. What would you, from your experiences, would you advise other parents? 0:41:00.5 DB: Anything that you have learned that, "Oh, my goodness, this is not the best way to handle it."? Or how you would do it differently? What do you feel would be the most important thing to take away from what you're sharing today? 0:41:11.4 Brett: I think for me, the most important thing... 0:41:14.3 Shendi: Don't attack your children. 0:41:15.8 Brett: Yeah. Whether it's between spouses or dealing with children, is to be open, to be understanding, and never make someone feel shamed. And that's been the biggest thing with Shendi I've learned, is that she's never shamed me for my addiction. She's never shamed me for looking. She's always wanted to, I think understand why I look, why I felt the need. 0:41:48.8 Brett: And I think we were able to pass it down to our kids. Our 10 year old going on 11 year old were to come to us tonight and say, "Okay, this is what I did." I think we'd be able to sit down and have an open conversation where she didn't feel judged by us. She didn't feel shamed by us. She didn't feel like she was the worst person on earth, but she knew that she was loved and still cared for no matter what. I think that's the best we can give your kids is not attacking them for looking at pornography or anything else. 0:42:25.1 DB: I'm curious, Brett, do you think there would be a point in your children's life that if your 10 year old, or I guess any one of your kids, was struggling with this, would you share with them your personal experiences with this? 0:42:41.2 Brett: Absolutely. 0:42:43.3 DB: I really value that. I think that's something that... 0:42:47.5 Brett: I think... 0:42:48.0 DB: Go ahead. 0:42:49.5 Brett: I guess if there's anything good that can come out of my pornography addiction would be to share my own experiences and why, and take from my personal experiences to help my kids, or any of my kids. 0:43:06.2 DB: I love that. I think that's important for us to do. I think we're so hesitant to even share our own personal experiences around this. I don't know if it's a fear of triggering our kids or somehow letting them know that, "Hey, it's okay because I had the problem." But the reality is, I think our youth need to see more great people like yourself that, "Hey, this is a reality," and we can still be great Latter-day Saints if we handle it in this way, and are supportive with our spouse in this way. 0:43:37.3 DB: And so I really praise you both for handling it in the way that you have. And I think the key for me here was hearing the friendship that occurred prior to marriage. I realize not a lot of relationships or some relationships don't have that blessing of having such a good relationship before. 0:43:56.8 DB: Which is kind of ironic, that's what we want to do. We want to marry our best friends. To be able to... It seems like a no-brainer. But I think it actually isn't as common as is... I hope this isn't me just being nay-saying, but I don't see that a lot. A true friendship, to be able to say, "I know who you are. I know, your heart." 0:44:19.2 DB: And Shendi, you even said, even with that though, you established some boundaries, and that's completely healthy and appropriate in a relationship, even a good friendship like that, like you have. And then it continues to develop. 0:44:31.1 Shendi: I definitely got lucky. 0:44:31.5 DB: What's that? 0:44:32.0 Shendi: I said I definitely got lucky. [chuckle] 0:44:35.1 DB: Wow, that's beautiful. I think this is a good lesson to hear for me, and I hope the listeners are getting what they needed out of this. Any final thoughts? 0:44:46.8 Shendi: I don't think so. 0:44:47.6 Brett: No, we're good. 0:44:49.7 DB: I think we covered a majority of your married life here. [chuckle] 0:44:55.5 Shendi: Yeah. Well, I think it's the same thing, it's not just a male problem, it can be a female problem too. And I think sometimes the first impulse is to lash out, and even if you do lash out, just be quick to say, "I'm sorry." Sometimes in a moment of anger, you say something that you shouldn't or you acted the way you shouldn't. And try to be open and honest with each other. 0:45:21.0 Shendi: Even if it takes a few days to finally communicate your whole feelings, or a couple of weeks even. I think it's just, that was our biggest thing, and I think that's the big thing that helped us the most, is communicating. And even if we struggle with communication, we were at least trying to communicate. 0:45:41.3 Brett: Yeah. That's the biggest thing for me is talk, talk, talk, talk, talk. Even if at some point it feels really uncomfortable, just keep talking, because that's, ultimately learning that communication is what's gonna keep moving forward. 0:46:00.3 DB: I appreciate that insight from both of you. I appreciate you taking the time to meet with me here today, and wish you continued success in your navigating this with you, and each of you and your family. Thank you. 0:46:14.6 Shendi: Thank you. 0:46:14.9 Brett: Thank you.